---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/22/07: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (jetboy) 2. 06:09 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Juan Vega) 3. 06:26 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Jerry Hey) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Paul Tipton) 5. 08:37 AM - 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket) 6. 09:37 AM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest () 7. 09:41 AM - Firewall on 601 XL (AZFlyer) 8. 12:09 PM - Fuel Sender Sealant (DaveG601XL) 9. 12:18 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Gary Gower) 10. 12:29 PM - Re: Firewall on 601 XL (Bryan Martin) 11. 12:32 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Bryan Martin) 12. 12:38 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Ron Lalonde) 13. 12:40 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Paul Riedlinger) 14. 01:11 PM - new thread (Zed Smith) 15. 01:32 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Terry Fogelson) 16. 01:39 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Matt Ronics) 17. 02:01 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Gig Giacona) 18. 03:47 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (ZodieRocket) 19. 03:52 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Jerry Hey) 20. 04:00 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket) 21. 04:16 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Jon Croke) 22. 04:36 PM - Re: Canopy weatherstrip (Jerry Goldberg) 23. 04:43 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Edward Moody II) 24. 04:44 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Edward Moody II) 25. 04:46 PM - Re: new thread (Edward Moody II) 26. 04:59 PM - Re: new thread (Jaybannist@cs.com) 27. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: alumunum (Arthur Olechowski) 28. 06:17 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Juan Vega) 29. 06:17 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Juan Vega) 30. 06:18 PM - Re: Canopy weatherstrip (Juan Vega) 31. 06:45 PM - Mid-Atlantic Zenith Gathering at the EAA Chapter 186 Fall Flyin and Cruisin (Jeff) 32. 07:09 PM - Fuel System Design (Ron Lendon) 33. 07:14 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket) 34. 08:30 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 (Richard Brantley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 landing issues From: "jetboy" Jerry 701s have been flying for over 20 years and I've never heard of one that was constructed within the design parameters, that had any of the "handling problems" you speak of. The local Savanah here has had the front of the wing cut off and put the new leading edge and VG kit on. They report it goes a lot faster - but if you are building a 701 that aspect will not be your primary goal? I guess with the 701 its easy to try both ways and cut the slat brackets off later if thats what you like, as some have done, in the experimental category. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130219#130219 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:31 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues as we discussed 7 months ago. VGs and slats do 2 separate things, Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch, VGs perform their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its majic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall. All rules are different for planes that fly faster than 200 knts and higher than 18,000. You will get verbal diahria from many of us on this subject, the above is the black and white basic version. best just to read up on it. -----Original Message----- >From: Stanley Challgren >Sent: Aug 21, 2007 11:33 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues > > > >On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Jerry Hey wrote: > >> . Here is the question--how do you all feel about eliminating the >> slats and adding the VGs. Thanks, Jerry > >My 701 will have the VG's and no slats. Cruise speed will increase, >fuel burn will be lower and landing the same. VG's worked great on >our 601 HDS and expect the same with the 701. > >Stan >N701VG (Reserved) >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:38 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues Thanks, I have searched archives with no luck. I know the thread exists but so far I have not found the right search words. Jerry On Aug 22, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Juan Vega wrote: > > > as we discussed 7 months ago. VGs and slats do 2 separate things, > Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch, VGs perform > their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs > will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does > its majic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. > for early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, > not might, but will stall. All rules are different for planes that > fly faster than 200 knts and higher than 18,000. > You will get verbal diahria from many of us on this subject, the > above is the black and white basic version. best just to read up > on it. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Stanley Challgren >> Sent: Aug 21, 2007 11:33 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Jerry Hey wrote: >> >>> . Here is the question--how do you all feel about eliminating the >>> slats and adding the VGs. Thanks, Jerry >> >> My 701 will have the VG's and no slats. Cruise speed will increase, >> fuel burn will be lower and landing the same. VG's worked great on >> our 601 HDS and expect the same with the 701. >> >> Stan >> N701VG (Reserved) >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:12 AM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats (150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes. It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701. If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve" anything. 321PT ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:30 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG=92s will increase performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and exceed the stated #=92s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a matter of learning, can VG=92s make the 701 perform better in the hands of a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can=92t. Does removing the slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph and with simple clean up of high drag area=92s such as streamlining the struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne, removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with the slats included. What I=92m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route, every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the VG=92s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don=92t dislike this gentleman and believe heartily that VG=92s do have a service in other designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why you built it ) isn=92t it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasn=92t for the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also it=92s graceful beauty). Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701 as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version. Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a quick death as far as the 701 is concerned. Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its magic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall. Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off in shorter distances then it already does don=92t you think that they would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would generate, and the awards) Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far better spent then on VG=92s. At least in the 701. But , you=92re the builder and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth. Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes? Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. HYPERLINK "mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats (150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes. It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701. If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve" anything. 321PT "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 8/22/2007 9:05 AM 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:15 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... Dred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall on 601 XL From: "AZFlyer" List, I am shopping for material for the engine side of the firewall to protect cabin against fire. Can not find anything in our archives, and ACS sells several products, some very expensive...however, does anybody have an opinion (stupid question) as to "best material" for fire protection? Appreciate your feedback. Mike -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130269#130269 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant From: "DaveG601XL" I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:30 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Dred, You forgot the :-) :-) :-) and the Do not Archive... Remember to install them using the green scotchbrite and dont forget to install a faucet pump over the fuselage to incrise wapor power :-) :-) Good joke but no more please! Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... Dred --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:43 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall on 601 XL The best material to use on the engine side of the firewall is sheet steel. Coincidentally, that just happens to be what the firewall itself is made of. I would leave the engine side of the firewall bare and put some kind of light weight insulation on the cabin side to help keep engine heat out of the cabin. Make sure to seal all penetrations through the firewall with flame resistant materials. Here's a good article on that subject. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html AZFlyer wrote: > > List, > > I am shopping for material for the engine side of the firewall to protect cabin against fire. Can not find anything in our archives, and ACS sells several products, some very expensive...however, does anybody have an opinion (stupid question) as to "best material" for fire protection? > > Appreciate your feedback. > > Mike > > -------- > Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com > 601 XL, 3300, Dynon > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:04 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Two words: JATO bottles. :) dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > > If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... > > Dred > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:00 PM PST US From: "Ron Lalonde" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one of those machines. I was one of the many that have tons of those tapes and no machine to transfer them to another media with....LOL Keep you eye out for me....REALLY ps: I am building to plans....... until I become an aircraft designer!! Ron > >Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and >you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly >your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VGs will increase >performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to >fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will >actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and >exceed the stated #s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have >seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with >the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I >have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the >plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a >matter of learning, can VGs make the 701 perform better in the hands of >a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they cant. Does removing the >slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it >removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph >and with simple clean up of high drag areas such as streamlining the >struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S >installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne, >removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the >designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on >the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with >the slats included. > >What Im trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route, >every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the >VGs state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I dont dislike this >gentleman and believe heartily that VGs do have a service in other >designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why >you built it ) isnt it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasnt for >the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also its graceful beauty). >Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701 >as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version. >Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned >instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your >plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a >quick death as far as the 701 is concerned. > >Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task >at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a >lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its magic when you >crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off. >Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall. > >Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off >in shorter distances then it already does dont you think that they >would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on >the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to >beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would >generate, and the awards) > >Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far >better spent then on VGs. At least in the 701. But , youre the builder >and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many >occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth. >Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes? > > >Mark Townsend >Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. >HYPERLINK >"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com >HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues > >FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats >(150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes. >It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701. >If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For >better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still >learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve" >anything. >321PT > > >"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com >/Navigator?Zenith-List >"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com > > >8/22/2007 9:05 AM > > >8/22/2007 9:05 AM > _________________________________________________________________ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:33 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will never come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to high heaven. Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: August-22-07 3:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:52 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: new thread do not archive Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs & slats? Kindest regards to all, Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:23 PM PST US From: Terry Fogelson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Second that part about wearing clothes you don't mind not wearing again. I have used it on helicopter transmissions to seal input and output quills so that they wouldn't seep oil. You can smooth it out after it has partially cured by using your finger and saliva. I am sure there are MDS that warn of all the dangers of doing that. It never affected me while I was doing it, and there have been no ill results yet. Terry --- DaveG601XL wrote: > > > I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that > comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the > Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). > I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. > Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using > this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the > fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this > stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL, tail and wings completed, > fueslage almost done, engine next. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest From: "Matt Ronics" As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money for such simple things as VGs. Why not just share the idea and give instructions for other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement). I see no engineering or data points to substantiate that these things are even adequately applied to the design. Snake oil for airplanes? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130308#130308 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest From: "Gig Giacona" http://search.ebay.com/betamax_W0QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1 rlalonde wrote: > Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one > of those machines. - -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130310#130310 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:43 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Keep in mind it's other name is BLACK GOO OF DEATH and it is well deserved. I use it on all fuel senders I install, and I really hate the stuff. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Riedlinger Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will never come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to high heaven. Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: August-22-07 3:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 8/22/2007 9:05 AM 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:02 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest To Mark and every one else who responded, thanks. I will take your advice to hitch a ride in a slated 701. I live in northeast Indiana but I would drive all day for a demo ride. It is true that I have never flown a true STOL aircraft so I do have much to learn. My background is strictly tail draggers , two Luscombes and a Tailwind and mostly off dirt. Just 300 hrs. I have no Cessna time. Jerry On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:35 AM, ZodieRocket wrote: > Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane > and you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If > you fly your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG=92s will > increase performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However > if you learn to fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant > to be flown you will actually realize the performance of the slats > and be able to perform and exceed the stated #=92s for the aircraft. > Most of us over the years have seen the 701 perform at the Airshow > in the ultralight field. Either with the Rotax 582 or 912. This > plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I have personally seen a 5 > ft departure, no magic was performed here, the plane is fully > capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a matter of > learning, can VG=92s make the 701 perform better in the hands of a > pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can=92t. Does removing > the slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, > it removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne > of 110mph and with simple clean up of high drag area=92s such as > streamlining the struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at > 95-100mph with the 912S installed. Much more then that and your > playing too close to the Vne, removing the slats is considered a > non approved modification by the designer, plus he ahs a shutter > every time you talk to him about it on the 701 because he designed > his wings and aircraft specifications with the slats included. > > > What I=92m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG > route, every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are > selling the VG=92s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don=92t > dislike this gentleman and believe heartily that VG=92s do have a > service in other designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane > ( after all that is why you built it ) isn=92t it? Why else would you > build a 701 if it wasn=92t for the STOL characteristics. ( Well there > is also it=92s graceful beauty). Below is the meat of another post of > which I agree with, I believe a 701 as designed is safer and far > more capable then the altered version. Nonetheless, you need to > know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned instructor in a 701. > Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your plane can perform, > you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a quick death > as far as the 701 is concerned. > > > Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their > task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will > stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its > magic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for > early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not > might, but will stall. > > > Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take > off in shorter distances then it already does don=92t you think that > they would be SHOWING it off at theAirshows? It already beats > everything on the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that > they would love to beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the > sales they would generate, and the awards) > > > Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far > better spent then on VG=92s. At least in the 701. But , you=92re the > builder and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found > on many occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless > of the truth. Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes? > > > Mark Townsend > > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. > > president@can-zacaviation.com > > www.can-zacaviation.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues > > > FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have > slats (150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different > speeds? Yes. It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, > it is a Zenith 701. If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is > something different. For better or worse? Everyone will have a > different opinion. I'm still learning to fly my Zenith 701 and > love it. No plans to "improve" anything. > > 321PT > > > - The Zenith-List Email Forum - > --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > --> http://forums.matronics.com > > > 8/22/2007 9:05 AM > > > 8/22/2007 9:05 AM > > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:35 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Not necessarily Snake oil, they are quite useful in a laminar flow plane and for helping in certain designs. They really make a difference on a glider I tried them on. They may even make a difference on a 601XL, though I doubt it would be noticeable. But on the 701 and remove the slats, PLEASE, the proof of the 701's performance has been shown time and time again at the shows, if your not matching the performance that you have seen at the airshows, I'm afraid to tell you it is not likely the plane, however the pilot just needs a little tweaking. Essentially if the 701 is not scarring the hell out of you on departure you are a seasoned 701 pilot or not flying it to it's abilities. Vortex Generators will improve a pilot who is in need of learning a STOL's capabilities, but it is a dangerous band aid in my opinion and training will be far more beneficial. Though it is not so much training to fly the 701 it is more like de-programming all those Cessna habits. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money for such simple things as VGs. Why not just share the idea and give instructions for other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement). I see no engineering or data points to substantiate that these things are even adequately applied to the design. Snake oil for airplanes? 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:19 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Inquiring minds need to know: Is there a history of the side mounted fuel senders LEAKING if using the prescribed rubber ring (no sealant) method? (The revised 701 plans now mount the sender in the side also). I'm just curious if there is an actual history of failures (leaks) or if this proseal recommendation is just for insurance's sake.... ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy weatherstrip From: "Jerry Goldberg" I need a wider rear canopy weather strip for my 601 HD. Does anyone know where there is a supply? Thanks, Jerry ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:11 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Sure. I could refuel them between flights with Tabasco Sauce. Good Idea. Dred Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Two words: JATO bottles. :) dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > > If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... > > Dred ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:57 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Probably a good idea to use hands you don't like too. Dred Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Riedlinger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will never come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to high heaven. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:05 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: new thread Goodyear or Metlife? Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Zed Smith To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: new thread do not archive Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs & slats? Kindest regards to all, Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:32 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: new thread That combo could really give new meaning to STOL! VVSTOL? VTOL? Jay "Edward Moody II" wrote: >Goodyear or Metlife? > >Dred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Zed Smith > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:10 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: new thread > > > > do not archive > > > Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs & slats? > > > Kindest regards to all, > > Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:11 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: alumunum Larry, Probably not accurate anymore but here is the Aluminum price quotes from Yarde as 10/06. 6061T6 Aluminum Sheet 0.016 4' X 12' sheet (#11.06 lbs per sheet) $34.28 0.025 4' X 12'......$90.00pc 0.025 4' X 6'.......$70.00pc 0.032 4' X 8'.......$90.00pc 0.040 4' X 8'.......$110.00pc 0.063 4' X 2'.......$50.00pc 0.090 2' X 2'.......$40.00pc 0.125 2' X 2'.......$45.00pc >> 2024T3 Aluminum Bar " X 1" X 1'..........$30.00pc 3/16" X 1 " X 1'.....$30.00pc (2024-T4) 1pc. X 1/2 X 2'.........$35.00pc 6061T6 Aluminum Angle .750x.750x.125X 25'@ $22/pc 1 X 1 X 0.125 X 4'.......$40.00pc >> 1 X 1 X 0.18 X 1'........$40.00pc >Brian Johnson > Yarde Metals > 866-630-1220 > 336-883-6935 fax Art 701 Ron Lendon wrote: Best prices on Aluminum used to be Yarde, it might still be. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130199#130199 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:16 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant use the gasket, and use the proseal, slather it on then screw everything n place. voi La. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: DaveG601XL >Sent: Aug 22, 2007 3:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant > > >I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > >-------- >David Gallagher >601 XL, tail and wings completed, >fueslage almost done, engine next. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:16 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant use the gasket, and use the proseal, slather it on then screw everything n place. voi La. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: DaveG601XL >Sent: Aug 22, 2007 3:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant > > >I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > >-------- >David Gallagher >601 XL, tail and wings completed, >fueslage almost done, engine next. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:05 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy weatherstrip a card comes with the strip you have, call the company. just add a skirt in the back. -----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Goldberg >Sent: Aug 22, 2007 7:37 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy weatherstrip > >I need a wider rear canopy weather strip for my 601 HD. Does anyone >know where there is a supply? > > >Thanks, >Jerry > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: Zenith-List: Mid-Atlantic Zenith Gathering at the EAA Chapter 186 Fall Flyin and Cruisin The Gathering is now just a month away. It's time to make your plans to come to Winchester, Virginia on September 22nd and 23rd. I have ordered the banners, arranged for the tent and space to tie down our planes, and I'm putting together a couple of static displays of typical Zenith parts and a slide/video show to run. The EAA Chapter has finalized their plans for the overall event. Posters are up in most area airports. We will have plenty of space to sit around, socialize, and talk Zenith aircraft. So let's get those calendars out! Details on the Gathering are on the Zenith web site under the Events link and on the EAA Chapter 186 web site. I can be reached at 703-471-1153 or at the ZenithGathering@earthlink.net email address for any questions you have. I appreciate the support from the following organizations: HomeBuiltHelp CAN-ZAC Zenith Aircraft EAA Chapter 186 Zenith Newsletter Matronics AMD Jeff Davidson CH601-HD/Jabiru 3300A Not quite done yet .. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel System Design From: "Ron Lendon" Hey gang, It's time to begin the design of the fuel system. I have little experience but I have placed a design document at this location: and would like feedback. If I am off base here, let me know. Basically I'm following the prints but substituting Stainless Braided line and fittings from Earls. The document is linear in that it starts at the tank and ends at the line to the carb. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130369#130369 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:30 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest IF your in Indiana then just head over to west of St Louis to the Zenith Facility at Mexico , Missouri. Just call ahead and make sure Roger will be there and the 701 will be present. They will be more then happy to take you up for a demo flight. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. HYPERLINK "mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Hey Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest To Mark and every one else who responded, thanks. I will take your advice to hitch a ride in a slated 701. I live in northeast Indiana but I would drive all day for a demo ride. It is true that I have never flown a true STOL aircraft so I do have much to learn. My background is strictly tail draggers , two Luscombes and a Tailwind and mostly off dirt. Just 300 hrs. I have no Cessna time. Jerry 8/22/2007 9:05 AM 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:21 PM PST US From: "Richard Brantley" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 Let's kill all the bastards and let God sort it out!!! Best use of nukes for peace I can think of -- I don't think our kids have the balls for IT!! Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zenith-List Digest Server" Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. > > Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested > levels of files were found. > > > For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit > http://ses.symantec.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.