---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/23/07: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - FWF for 701 (Mike Hoffman) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (steveadams) 3. 06:49 AM - Bounched (LRM) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Juan Vega) 5. 06:59 AM - Re: Fuel System Design (Juan Vega) 6. 07:18 AM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (DaveG601XL) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Avidmagnum) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: FWF for 701 (Dan) 9. 08:48 AM - RE : Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Jean-Paul Roy) 10. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (NYTerminat@aol.com) 11. 09:35 AM - Re: Re:weight & balance with one scale? (Craig Payne) 12. 11:32 AM - Re: weight & balance with one scale? (Gig Giacona) 13. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 () 14. 12:08 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (steveadams) 15. 02:38 PM - Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Craig Payne) 16. 02:51 PM - Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Gig Giacona) 17. 02:59 PM - Re: Fuel System Design (Craig Payne) 18. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Craig Payne) 19. 03:11 PM - Re: FWF for 701 (Mike Hoffman) 20. 03:13 PM - type IV vw engine (Bill Flick) 21. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: weight & balance with one scale? (Juan Vega) 22. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 (Juan Vega) 23. 04:04 PM - Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages (John Marzulli) 24. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (JG) 25. 04:48 PM - Re: type IV vw engine (LarryMcFarland) 26. 05:08 PM - Re: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages (Paul Riedlinger) 27. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: weight & balance with one scale? (Bryan Martin) 28. 05:15 PM - Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Tim Juhl) 29. 05:42 PM - Re: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages (Robin Bellach) 30. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Craig Payne) 31. 07:30 PM - Re: Fuel System Design (Ron Lendon) 32. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Fuel System Design (Craig Payne) 33. 08:43 PM - 801 VOR (ZodieRocket) 34. 09:20 PM - Re: 801 VOR (jetboy) 35. 09:26 PM - Choice of engine for the CH 601HDS (Charles McGloughlin) 36. 09:43 PM - Re: Choice of engine for the CH 601HDS (ZodieRocket) 37. 11:32 PM - VGs on 701 (JG) 38. 11:33 PM - VGs to Z.A.C. (JG) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: FWF for 701 From: "Mike Hoffman" Am I the only person waiting over 3 months for a Rotax FWF (less engine) from Mexico? Just courious if anyone else is in the same boat as me. If you are getting close, I would suggest you order early. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130428#130428 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant From: "steveadams" I have side mounted senders in my CH640. I used the supplied gasket with a slathering of fuel lube. No leaks in 500 hours. I did, however, have a sender fail and had to replace it. It was fairly straight forward to replace without the proseal, trying to replace it if it was sealed with proseal would be next to impossible without openning up the wing to get at it. I wouldn't bother with the proseal, which is more suited to a permanent installation. Steve Adams CH640 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130443#130443 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:30 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Zenith-List: Bounched Kevin McClune, you keep asking about PegaStol wings. I respond every time, but your server keeps bouncing it back to me. Check your end. Anyway, maybe this will help. Dedalius sold out to Raymond Miller of Alaska. You can get him at moseus@gmail.com. I have no idea when he is going to start producing kits. I wish he would, it's one great product. Take care, Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:49 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant actually i have had to repair a few things with proseal. What is nice about proseal is that if you pul it, its like superglue, however its properties let it stay flexible indefinitely. SO to separate two pieces or say the sender from the tank, you just slip an exacto blade between the two peices and not pry but slice it off and it comes right off. Proseal that has cured can be cut like butter.. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: steveadams >Sent: Aug 23, 2007 8:16 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant > > >I have side mounted senders in my CH640. I used the supplied gasket with a slathering of fuel lube. No leaks in 500 hours. I did, however, have a sender fail and had to replace it. It was fairly straight forward to replace without the proseal, trying to replace it if it was sealed with proseal would be next to impossible without openning up the wing to get at it. I wouldn't bother with the proseal, which is more suited to a permanent installation. > >Steve Adams >CH640 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130443#130443 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:19 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel System Design just stick to the plans, its a good design. -----Original Message----- >From: Ron Lendon >Sent: Aug 22, 2007 10:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel System Design > > >Hey gang, It's time to begin the design of the fuel system. I have little experience but I have placed a design document at this location: > > >and would like feedback. If I am off base here, let me know. > >Basically I'm following the prints but substituting Stainless Braided line and fittings from Earls. The document is linear in that it starts at the tank and ends at the line to the carb. > >-------- >Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI >Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) >http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130369#130369 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant From: "DaveG601XL" Steve, I am not familiar with the CH640, but did you get to the fuel sender via a small access panel like on the 601XL (170mm x 75mm) or you have full access to the tank? I am wondering since you said it was a pretty straight forward replacement for you. A sender replacement with just a gasket on it would seem, to me, to be an impossible task on a 601XL for my not-so-small hands. I envision a leading edge removal for any fuel tank work past a simple fuel hose replacement. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130481#130481 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest From: "Avidmagnum" A lot of good points on the subject of VG's and there is no way we can cover all of them for everone. Some will love them and some will not. That's OK! We do not all fly our aircraft the same way. My 701sp with 912S has floats and there is no way I can rotate like a land plane...the tails of the floats will drag. I have time in my 701 with and without slats and like it much better without! But thats on floats! Tom Schulke Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130482#130482 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:46 AM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: FWF for 701 It took about three months for my order to arrive. I also had to wait additional time for some small back ordered items. Dan Wilde Mike Hoffman wrote: > > Am I the only person waiting over 3 months for a Rotax FWF (less engine) from Mexico? Just courious if anyone else is in the same boat as me. If you are getting close, I would suggest you order early. > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:15 AM PST US From: Jean-Paul Roy Subject: RE : Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Hello Tom. I am actually building a Ch 701SP and it meant to be on floats as I live on a nice lakeshore. I've following this slats/no slats from the very beginning and I'm a litlle confused. I've also went trought all of the Stolspeed aerodynamic web site (the guy who makes the Feathers VG's) many times and that even put more confusion in my mind. Of course, I would like the performances the web site says it do. Since i'm going on floats and skis in the winter, I would like to have the opinion of a real time user. Since you've been using your 701 in both configurations, could you tell me the differences you found both ways. I'm at the point of putting my wings skelleton together and if the decision is made to not use the slats, I won't even bother with installing the slat supports. Thanks ahead of time for any opinion you may give. It is important for me. Jean-Paul Roy Angliers, Quebec, Canada 701, building wings Avidmagnum a crit : A lot of good points on the subject of VG's and there is no way we can cover all of them for everone. Some will love them and some will not. That's OK! We do not all fly our aircraft the same way. My 701sp with 912S has floats and there is no way I can rotate like a land plane...the tails of the floats will drag. I have time in my 701 with and without slats and like it much better without! But thats on floats! Tom Schulke Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130482#130482 Jean-Paul Roy royjp@yahoo.ca Tl: (819)949-2216 Cell:(819)629-9360 --------------------------------- Combattez les mchants pourriels... Le filtre SpamGuard vous aide lutter efficacement contre les pourriels sur le Tout-nouveau Yahoo! Courriel ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:04 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant Steve, I have installed mine in the 701 the same way that you did and I also had one fail in the 1st few hours. I was able to replace it through the inspection hole that was installed without too much of a problem. Bob Spudis N701ZX/ CH701/126hrs I have side mounted senders in my CH640. I used the supplied gasket with a slathering of fuel lube. No leaks in 500 hours. I did, however, have a sender fail and had to replace it. It was fairly straight forward to replace without the proseal, trying to replace it if it was sealed with proseal would be next to impossible without openning up the wing to get at it. I wouldn't bother with the proseal, which is more suited to a permanent installation. Steve Adams CH640 http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:43 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re:weight & balance with one scale? Don't do what I did - I bought three cheap digital electronic scales at Costco. Problem is that they are designed to turn on when you step on them and will turn off after a short period. Hard to do when weighing a plane so I returned them. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: weight & balance with one scale? From: "Gig Giacona" Ok her's the plan. Go to Wal-Mart or Home Depot and get 3 of the best analog scales you can find. Then go do the weight and balance and then return the scales. Here's the clincher. Tell them they didn't go high enough for your wife to use. I'll bet they hand you your money back and not say a word. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130552#130552 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:57 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 OOOoookaaaaaaayyy. Rich, I've been advocating that sort of thing since 1967, when I was an exchange student observing the Greater Southeast Asia Gunpowder Festival. I think it's a great idea, in general. But how do this relate to building Zeniths? Paul Rodriguez do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Brantley To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > Let's kill all the bastards and let God sort it out!!! Best use of nukes for peace I can think of -- I don't think our kids have the balls for IT!! Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zenith-List Digest Server" > To: "Zenith-List Digest List" > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. > > Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested > levels of files were found. > > > For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit > http://ses.symantec.com/ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Sender Sealant From: "steveadams" DaveG601XL wrote: > Steve, > > I am not familiar with the CH640, but did you get to the fuel sender via a small access panel like on the 601XL (170mm x 75mm) or you have full access to the tank? I am wondering since you said it was a pretty straight forward replacement for you. A sender replacement with just a gasket on it would seem, to me, to be an impossible task on a 601XL for my not-so-small hands. I envision a leading edge removal for any fuel tank work past a simple fuel hose replacement. > > Thanks, Yes, the 640 has a similar small access panel. You have to reach through the access panel and then through a lightenning hole to get at the sender. Not easy (or fun), but doable if the sender is not sealed in place. Trying to get a blade in there to cut through the proseal, even if it cuts like butter, would probably result in a lot of swearing and a few blood stains. Then you would have to clean the old proseal off completely, without getting any in the tanks, all while laying on your back with your twisted arms blocking your view of the work area. After flying for a while I have grown to appreciate how much easier things are if you consider future maintenance while building. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130563#130563 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:00 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount My motor mount was supplied by Jabiru USA about 8 months ago. After seeing that the engine's thrust-line didn't match the Zenith plans I took some measurements of the mount's tubes as requested by Jabiru USA. They said that the top tubes were about 10 cm too long and that they would exchange the mount. So if you have such a mount do some checking before you paint your mount and hang your engine. The easiest way to check the mount is with a digital level. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount From: "Gig Giacona" 10 cm or mm? Do Not Archive -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130611#130611 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:07 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel System Design A few comments: - since you are going with the Corvair I presume you will be following William's design. - consider adding a fuel flow sender and gauge. Fuel exhaustion is an all to common cause of accidents and fuel flow can provide an instantaneous check on the health of your fuel system and also help you track your fuel more accurately. - I'm paranoid enough about vapor-lock that I went with the Andair extensions so I can mount my valve on the floor and the knob on the center console. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:16 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount mm - what's an order of magnitude among friends? ;-) -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount --> 10 cm or mm? Do Not Archive -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130611#130611 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FWF for 701 From: "Mike Hoffman" Dan Wilde, Thanks for the reply. Good to know I'm not the only one, even though it doesn't make it any better. Just thought it would be a "heads up" for those that might be at the same point as me and a reminder to order at least 3 months in advance. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130616#130616 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:33 PM PST US From: "Bill Flick" Subject: Zenith-List: type IV vw engine has or is anyone useing a type iv vw engine on the zenair or any other plane? i am thinking of one with a redrive and would like any info you may have. thanks bill ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:23 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: weight & balance with one scale? Gig, i am in the process of getting ready for weight and bal as well. when you do the three scals, do you take the average of the three? hows that work? I have the work sheets with the arms but the weight things i am needing of some pip slapping to understand. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >Sent: Aug 23, 2007 2:31 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: weight & balance with one scale? > > >Ok her's the plan. Go to Wal-Mart or Home Depot and get 3 of the best analog scales you can find. > >Then go do the weight and balance and then return the scales. Here's the clincher. Tell them they didn't go high enough for your wife to use. > >I'll bet they hand you your money back and not say a word. > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130552#130552 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:36 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 all, on this subject, below, did someone just have a war induced flash back while typing on the computer.? -----Original Message----- >From: paulrod36@msn.com >Sent: Aug 23, 2007 2:27 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > >OOOoookaaaaaaayyy. Rich, I've been advocating that sort of thing since 1967, when I was an exchange student observing the Greater Southeast Asia Gunpowder Festival. I think it's a great idea, in general. But how do this relate to building Zeniths? > >Paul Rodriguez >do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Brantley > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:28 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > > > > Let's kill all the bastards and let God sort it out!!! Best use of nukes for > peace I can think of -- I don't think our kids have the balls for IT!! > > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zenith-List Digest Server" > > To: "Zenith-List Digest List" > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:58 AM > Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 > > > > This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. > > > > Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested > > levels of files were found. > > > > > > For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit > > http://ses.symantec.com/ > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:19 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages We all get packages delivered to us full of clecos, Homebuilt Help DVDs or other parts, and normally nothing goes wrong. This week UPS left a package on my doorstep without taking a signature. It turns out that this step is discretionary to the driver. As a result the package was stolen. Anyway, I was able to recover my package with the help of the Police. It's a long story, and I have it recounted here: http://701builder.livejournal.com/ In other news my fuselage kit is being delivered tomorrow. Let's see them try to steal that! Happy building! -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:19 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest Yes, you certainly can make your own VGs. One set of instructions on how to make them is at http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly19.html . (He's another dedicated experimenter when you read the rest of his website.) In the beginning I made these and they worked OK, just look a bit crude and don't fit the contour of the wing skin very well. For the 701 wing, mount them with the front tips 140mm in front of the rivet line on the top of the spar, about 100-150mm apart. Tailwinds always, JG ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Ronics To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:38 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money for such simple things as VGs. Why not just share the idea and give instructions for other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130308#130308 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:06 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: type IV vw engine Hi Bill, It'd be good to state what aircraft are you considering for this VW. For the 701, it might be a real good choice, for the 601 a questionable choice. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Bill Flick wrote: > has or is anyone useing a type iv vw engine on the zenair or any other > plane? i am thinking of one with a redrive and would like any info > you may have. thanks bill ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:03 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages I just love the "discretion" clause. I had a very expensive network storage device delivered to my house yesterday and found it behind the planters on the front porch. It is always fun to find a two terabyte device in your ferns! Someone was home all day so I guess the UPS driver just decided to drop it and run. The funny thing was it had stickers all over it saying "signature required". Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Marzulli Sent: August-23-07 7:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages We all get packages delivered to us full of clecos, Homebuilt Help DVDs or other parts, and normally nothing goes wrong. This week UPS left a package on my doorstep without taking a signature. It turns out that this step is discretionary to the driver. As a result the package was stolen. Anyway, I was able to recover my package with the help of the Police. It's a long story, and I have it recounted here: http://701builder.livejournal.com/ In other news my fuselage kit is being delivered tomorrow. Let's see them try to steal that! Happy building! -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:10 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: weight & balance with one scale? 1. Add the three weights to get the total empty weight. 2. Multiply each individual weight by its distance behind the datum. 4. Add the three products. 5. Divide this sum by the empty weight to get the distance behind the datum of the CG. Juan Vega wrote: > > Gig, > i am in the process of getting ready for weight and bal as well. when you do the three scals, do you take the average of the three? hows that work? I have the work sheets with the arms but the weight things i am needing of some pip slapping to understand. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Gig Giacona >> Sent: Aug 23, 2007 2:31 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: weight & balance with one scale? >> >> >> Ok her's the plan. Go to Wal-Mart or Home Depot and get 3 of the best analog scales you can find. >> >> Then go do the weight and balance and then return the scales. Here's the clincher. Tell them they didn't go high enough for your wife to use. >> >> I'll bet they hand you your money back and not say a word. >> >> -------- >> W.R. "Gig" Giacona >> 601XL Under Construction >> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount From: "Tim Juhl" Would you be so kind as to share the measurements Jabiru sent you? I have an engine mount that I received from them in May but who knows when it was made...... Thanks! Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130631#130631 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:53 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages Those stickers don't mean a thing when the shipper does not pay for signature service. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Riedlinger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages I just love the "discretion" clause. I had a very expensive network storage device delivered to my house yesterday and found it behind the planters on the front porch. It is always fun to find a two terabyte device in your ferns! Someone was home all day so I guess the UPS driver just decided to drop it and run. The funny thing was it had stickers all over it saying "signature required". Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Marzulli Sent: August-23-07 7:03 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Slightly off topic: Lost and stolen packages We all get packages delivered to us full of clecos, Homebuilt Help DVDs or other parts, and normally nothing goes wrong. This week UPS left a package on my doorstep without taking a signature. It turns out that this step is discretionary to the driver. As a result the package was stolen. Anyway, I was able to recover my package with the help of the Police. It's a long story, and I have it recounted here: http://701builder.livejournal.com/ In other news my fuselage kit is being delivered tomorrow. Let's see them try to steal that! Happy building! -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:57 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount I only have the measurements I made and the "top tubes 10 mm too long" comment from Jabiru USA. Below are my measurements. Since the tubes are cut on a diagonal these measurements are on the longest, outside edges of the tubes from the plates at the firewall to the disks at the rear of the engine mount "pins". Take these measurements as approximate as it was hard to make some of them with a steel tape with the mount and engine on the plane: top tube, pilot side: 445 mm top tube, copilot side: 465-470 mm bottom, pilot side: 380 mm bottom, copilot side: 400-405 mm What is actually critical is the angle of the engine (horizontal and vertical) to the firewall. So it is best to measure these directly and compare them to 6-JE-1 in the Zenith plans. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel System Design From: "Ron Lendon" Craig, I have allowed for the pressure gage but hadn't thought about the flow. And yes it is a Corvair the WW way. I have been waiting for him to publish the 601 book but have gotten to the point I need to move forward. Got any pictures of the Andair Valve mounted? Thanks for the ideas. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130646#130646 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:05 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel System Design > Got any pictures of the Andair Valve mounted? Mine is still mounted in its box. But I've attached pictures of somebody else's installation. Unfortunately I've lost track of whose plane it is. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:09 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 VOR Does anyone have a suggestion on a VOR antenna location for an 801. I just got a request to install one. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com 8/22/2007 6:51 PM ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 801 VOR From: "jetboy" Mark, Best antenna would be the towel rail type ( D&M N48-3 ) due to low twisting loads on the mount area. Best position on rear empenage sides - lower edge below the fwd horiz stab brackets. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130668#130668 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:38 PM PST US From: Charles McGloughlin Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of engine for the CH 601HDS Having acquired a partially complete 601 HDS kit, which I intend to complete as an E-LSA, I would like to hear comments on the broad question below! How do the Subaru and Corvair engines stack up against Rotax & Jabiru when you take cost, installation, available technical support, weight and final performance into account? And are there any 601 builders reasonably close to Sacramento, CA? Sincerely -- Charles McGloughlin Email - charlesmcg@citlink.net 8654 Bluefield Way Phones - Cell (916)832-0654 Sacramento, CA 95823 Home (916)689-7701 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:33 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Choice of engine for the CH 601HDS If you want it to be an ELSA, I believe that you will need it flying by December of this year. However I may be wrong as I am a Canadian and not fully up on the U.S. LSA. IF it is true and to meet the ELSA category by December, you will have to order a Rotax or Jabiru in the next week in order to have a chance to make the deadline. IF you go auto conversion, typically add another year to your construction. Also a missed deadline. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles McGloughlin Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of engine for the CH 601HDS Having acquired a partially complete 601 HDS kit, which I intend to complete as an E-LSA, I would like to hear comments on the broad question below! How do the Subaru and Corvair engines stack up against Rotax & Jabiru when you take cost, installation, available technical support, weight and final performance into account? And are there any 601 builders reasonably close to Sacramento, CA? Sincerely -- Charles McGloughlin Email - charlesmcg@citlink.net 8654 Bluefield Way Phones - Cell (916)832-0654 Sacramento, CA 95823 Home (916)689-7701 8/22/2007 6:51 PM 8/22/2007 6:51 PM ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:30 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Zenith-List: VGs on 701 Boy, the mention of VGs sure does stir up a storm........ That's really mystifying to me, because I'm just trying to share some really significant discoveries that we've found by experience.......... I've been in love with the CH701 for about 18 years, but intrigued by the possibility of removing the slats for most of that time, so always watching and studying for evidence in that direction. I certainly didn't start this as a manufacturer of VGs looking for a market for them on the 701. I was a doubting sceptic before I actually tried them - and you wouldn't think they'd do much on a wing like the 701, anyhow eh. I was just going to remove the slats, as the Columbians had done, expecting to get better cruise efficiency, and prepared to lose some STOL capability which had lots to spare. I expected maybe 10% improvement in fuel burn, but was amazed to find 23%! STOL performance was less of course, but still adequate for most all practical use. Then, being a curious experimenter, decided to try VGs, and was totally amazed that most all of the STOL capability came back! The more I tried VGs the more I liked the effect that they gave, but I didn't like the sharp points and the fit to the wing of the ones on the market. And so designed and tested the 'Feathers', and so it went from there....... I certainly didn't start manufacturing VGs to make a lot of money. Homebuilt aircraft is not a mass market and so many of those builders are complete sceptics, some are even from Missouri..... And only need one set of VGs for an aircraft, then never hear from that one again. If I wanted to make lots of cash flow I'd go for something like lawn mowing - get paid to do it all over again in a couple of weeks. Or for more excitement, get a mobile dog-washing franchise.... I'm semi-retired, and not inspired to make any big business of this, just enough to keep tinkering and experimenting with light STOL aircraft. There'll be more to come, stay tuned. Some of us are born experimenters and innovators, and are always interested in trying to make things go better. (I even felt the need to modify my Buck pocket knife....) Others just want to follow the straight and narrow, especially with aircraft - so let it be for them. Surely we can all share this forum without animosity, and encourage the diversity rather than trying to shoot it down...... It's almost as if it's considered heresy to even explore alternatives...... This homebuilt aircraft game attracts some really clever and capable minds, and I for one really enjoy sharing constructive ideas and experiences with them. I've already met many really interesting and innovative builders online, and it's just great to have this medium to hear from more of them all over the world. The nay-sayers always seem to shout the loudest, but I know of many builder/flyers out there with heaps of good experience, who speak seldom, and quietly when they do, but are really worth listening to..... It's heartening to note that the first to be attracted to, and try these changes, were very experienced flyers, who now love their 701s even more since they've cut their slats off - surely that says something worth paying attention to..... I pay most attention to real life experience and evidence, rather than theory or pre-conceived opinions. And I'm ready to change my opinions when I see new evidence. That 'big wind tunnel in the sky' is the real test. That's why I've flown 400 hrs in the last two years, always observing and testing these changes we've made. And I certainly don't fly like a Cessna - more like a hawk on a mouse! Always looking for some new challenging spot to practice STOL landings. Just got back from 38hrs of flying into outback Australia, actually using my STOL aircraft to land in very rough and remote places - how many of you really do land your STOL aircraft off-field.... Everything in that website is derived from such experience. Lastly, there seems to be some misconception of the results I've claimed for replacing slats with VGs: I'm not saying that VGs make for shorter landings than slats, just pretty close to equal STOL performance, with lots of improvement in climb, cruise and glide. The common experience that most flyers notice is an gentler transition from hold-off to touch-down, thus making slower landings easier for the average flyer. And I certainly don't encourage anyone to go near Vne, but it sure is good to be able to cruise at 80 kts while burning less fuel than used to at 75, and still have pretty much the same STOL performance. That's really significant for those of us who actually go cross-country in our aircraft...... I've written pretty much all I have to say in the www.stolspeed.com website, and written it as carefully and as completely as I can. I won't get into a shouting match here, as happens on so many forums. But if there are serious questions that I haven't covered in the website, I'll discuss them. Tailwinds always, JG ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:30 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Zenith-List: VGs to Z.A.C. I've just sent a set of FeathersVGs to Zenith Aircraft Company for testing on their CH701. Also a copy of the following open letter: Zenith Aircraft Corporation Mexico, Missouri, USA Dear Sirs, As you will have heard, our experience here in Australia, of removing the slats from a CH701 and replacing them with VGs, demonstrates a considerable improvement in climb and cruise and glide performance, with little or no real loss in STOL capability. Hundreds of hours of intensive STOL flying on several aircraft has shown no down-side of the conversion. Multiple testimonials from other 701 owners in the USA and elsewhere have confirmed these results. It's heartening that many of those to try this mod are high-time pilots with considerable experience in different aircraft, and they now like their 701s better without the slats..... Now we hear that fellas in Brazil have also been flying without slats for years. There's no doubt that the improvement is real. Seems to me these discoveries involving VGs instead of slats should be seen not as a threat to the CH701, but an opportunity to broaden the range of an already excellent and popular aircraft. It doesn't need any major change in the aircraft construction to implement this alternative. I reckon customers should be offered the choice of slats or VGs...... At the time that Chris Heintz designed the CH701, VGs were not as well tested as today, and even so, no one would have predicted that they could actually replace the effect of leading edge slats so effectively on this wing. It was a real surprise, but now we know from experience they can be a real advantage. So why not take that information on board and exploit it??? I realize that those slats were the best innovation at that time, and a great marketing feature, but the facts are now clear that many of us, from experience, prefer the aircraft with VGs rather than with slats. So I'm sending you a set of 'Feathers' VGs, free of charge, for testing on your CH701. Another major improvement we have tested on the 701 is to extend the wings by 400mm (16") each side. This has dramatically improved the slow speed performance and considerably lowered the landing speed. Glide ratio at very low speed is much improved, making for easier, gentler, slower landings. Now we learn that those same fellas in Brazil have also been building longer wings for years, and already know the benefits.... See 'Long Wing' page for more details. Yet another improvement we have tested is to apply VGs to the leading edge of the elevator - not to the horizontal stabilizer, but to the elevator itself. This way the VGs are hidden at cruise in the slot between the horiz stab and the elevator, but are exposed in the very best position to catch the airflow when they are most needed at flare. This has sure helped to increase elevator authority at very slow touch-down speeds, making for much improved landing control. See 'Tail Feathers' page for more details. The owner of the 701 with all these modifications is absolutely thrilled with the improvements - no way would he go back to the original configuration! The two other 701 owners at our airfield have long since replaced their slats with VGs and added VGs to their elevators, and now want to lengthen their wings as well. Who wouldn't, after having compared their aircraft's slow speed performance to the modified one...... Your competitor, I.C.P. Savannah, had already realized the benefits of the longer wing when they copied your design. And as soon as I demonstrated the benefit of VGs instead of slats they jumped on the opportunity with their 'VG' model, and now are very successful with it. Yes, they copied your basic CH701 design but made some significant improvements that weren't and still aren't available on the CH701 (longer cleaner wing and more powerful horizontal stabilizer/elevator), then they exactly copied the VGs that I was importing at the time, which is ironic in that I wasn't satisfied with those VGs so felt the need to design and manufacture some better ones, i.e.- Feathers VGs. Zenith could easily do the same and even better with the CH701, so why not do it???? We're happy to have done the amateur experimenting that discovered some of these significant improvements, but I would hope that now that the results are revealed, Z.A.C. would incorporate them, with proper qualified engineering, for all CH701 owners. It's just not right that other amateurs without engineering backing should have to make these changes for themselves. We would rather have the benefit of your engineering experience and stay with Zenith rather than go to some copier. You have a large and loyal following so please give us the best performing aircraft that you can. All of these changes would be really easy to incorporate - no need to engineer a completely new aircraft. The original wing profile without the slats is already proven to be an ideal airfoil with VGs. I've heard (but can't confirm) that the longer wing has already been produced for the French market to comply with their regulations, so Z.A.C. must already have some experience with it. If us amateurs in remote parts of the world can do it so successfully, then surely Z.A.C. can do it for the benefit of all. There's an old adage in business, "....If you just stand still, the pace of progress will leave you behind.....". I sure hope this doesn't happen to the 701, 'cause it's been standing still for a long time now , while others are exploiting every improvement.... I still love the 701, and I admire all that Chris Heintz and Zenith have done for the homebuilders. The CH701 is still one of the only designs that the homebuilder can realistically build from plans and scratch materials. I sure hope that can continue, what with all the move to factory-built, high cost (and I assume higher profit) machines. If you want to experience any of these improvements that we're now enjoying then please come to Australia for a holiday/business trip, and fly Hans's modified 701 and my Savannah - you really do need to know what is possible...... Thanking you for your attention. Fair skies and tailwinds always, John Gilpin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.