Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - Re: somewhat off topic - Purchasing an incomplete homebuilt (cbaron66)
2. 07:37 AM - Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (Tim Juhl)
3. 07:39 AM - LRI probe (alex trent)
4. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount (japhillipsga@aol.com)
5. 07:59 AM - Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks)
6. 09:06 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Gig Giacona)
7. 09:34 AM - question about fuel related to aviation. (ZodieRocket)
8. 10:04 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Purchasing an incomplete homebuilt ()
9. 10:05 AM - N601BZ Fly's! (Bill Sewell)
10. 10:52 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (LarryMcFarland)
11. 11:04 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (wade jones)
12. 11:27 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (John Marzulli)
13. 11:28 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Bryan Martin)
14. 11:42 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! ()
15. 01:42 PM - Re:Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (MaxNr@aol.com)
16. 02:26 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (eddies)
17. 02:39 PM - 601XL rear spar risk mitigation (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
18. 03:09 PM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") (n801bh@netzero.com)
19. 03:12 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (n801bh@netzero.com)
20. 04:03 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (george may)
21. 04:38 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Matt & Jo)
22. 06:01 PM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (Ron Lendon)
23. 06:25 PM - Burger and a chat (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons))
24. 07:22 PM - Re: Cooling the cockpit (GLJSOJ1)
25. 07:34 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (rgeese)
26. 07:42 PM - Re: chat (Falcon)
27. 10:04 PM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (PatrickW)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: somewhat off topic - Purchasing an incomplete homebuilt |
Just a small note of correction: If the plane/parts meet the qualifications, you
might get a repairmans certificate. Unless you complete the necessary schooling
and or expeariance and pass all the written, oral and practical tests, you
will never be an A&P 8)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131182#131182
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount |
As I said, my mount is not ready to be installed - I must finish the fuselage first
:-) Other than rigging up some kind of jig I'll have to wait until I get
to that point.
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131190#131190
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I have made the LRI probe from the data available on the ch601.org
site. The profile is not very streamlined and I wonder just how much I
can radius it to give a more areodynamic profile with out effecting the
accuracy. I am assuming that the 45 degree corner is important but how
about the rest of it?
alex t.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount |
Tim, I happen to have an extra XL/Jab3300 engine mount. Depending on where you
are you are welcome to use it. Call my cell at 478-731-9678. Bill of georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:35 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Out-of-spec 601XL/Jabiru 3300 motor mount
As I said, my mount is not ready to be installed - I must finish the fuselage
first :-) Other than rigging up some kind of jig I'll have to wait until I get
to that point.
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131190#131190
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS owners,
but my cause for posting is not.
I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it will
knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boost. I
normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no problems
with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will only light up
the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on really hot days when
the intercooler can't keep up.
I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have been
getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not driving very
hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are full time
cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess was that I was
starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had
carbon building up on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But
now I am not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the
weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am now
wondering about the gas at my local station.
I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local
station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like
counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought those
were total counters, one for each underground tank but this station sells
three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two grades of gas and
mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87
gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with 91.
I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if both
counters run at the same time.)
A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecule
chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process, and who
knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on TV) so I got
lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the conversation was that
his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas (the shorter molecule
chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even if mixed with the high
octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It was also his strongly
expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I
want to make it clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in
the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a
disadvantage on this whole issue.
So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are these:
- Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of
each grade?
- How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89
octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very
far.
- Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?
Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel?
- What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor
replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks like an
epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out the end. That wire
runs back to the after market ECU. Is this sensor really just a microphone
listening for "knocks"? Can it be that simple?)
- What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and
"pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if they
meant something different.
- What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas? Is
there an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all?
- What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine
options like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701 one of these
fine days. Honest.)
Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to
this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured this
was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find. Asking
technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets responses like
"Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it
would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an E-LSA
plane. The power to weight ratio is about right...
Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't want to
clutter up the list with this topic.
Dave
Please do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
I can really on help on one of your questions.
Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each grade?
Yes, when you go to a station that has 3 grades look around there are only, in
most cases, only two tanks. This is because to make the middle grade the pump
mixes premium and unleaded.
Have you tried a full tank from another station that uses a different distributor?
If the knocking goes away when you do the problem is with their gas if not
it is with your car.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131201#131201
Message 7
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| Subject: | question about fuel related to aviation. |
David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the
Octane loss of Mogas. From memory after
a week 95 = 94
two weeks 95= 92
3 weeks 95=90
4 weeks 95 = 87
5 weeks 95 = 84
3 mos ' use only to start fires
And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept
in dark and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this
gas to your plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as
mogas separates and creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel
for more then 3 mos for your car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then
you are good for a year, give or take a month. Also be aware in northern
climates and in Canada Especially we have 4 different blends of fuel
depending on the season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT CARB ICING TIMES.
In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more
then 3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you
just bought at a gas station is new mix and fresh.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Brooks
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and
"knocking")
I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS
owners, but my cause for posting is not.
I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it
will knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high
boost. I normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no
problems with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will
only light up the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on
really hot days when the intercooler can't keep up.
I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have
been getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not
driving very hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them
are full time cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best
guess was that I was starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some
rings going bad and had carbon building up on the piston heads and that
was causing detonation. But now I am not so sure. I filled up an
almost empty tank out of town over the weekend and I haven't seen the
knock light blink even once. I am now wondering about the gas at my
local station.
I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local
station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like
counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought
those were total counters, one for each underground tank but this
station sells three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two
grades of gas and mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could
they be selling 87 gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away
when I fill up with 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs
gas and I will see if both counters run at the same time.)
A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline
molecule chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining
process, and who knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play
one on TV) so I got lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the
conversation was that his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas
(the shorter molecule chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even
if mixed with the high octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It
was also his strongly expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were
pretty useless as well.) I want to make it clear that I am not sure I
understand what is going on in the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I
am starting at a bit of a disadvantage on this whole issue.
So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are
these:
* Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective
octane of each grade?
* How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling
89 octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me
very far.
* Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage
knocking? Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the
undiluted fuel?
* What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor
replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks
like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out the end.
That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is this sensor really just
a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be that simple?)
* What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and
"pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if
they meant something different.
* What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane
gas? Is there an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at
all?
* What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS
engine options like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701
one of these fine days. Honest.)
Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to
this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured
this was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find.
Asking technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets
responses like "Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I
sometimes think it would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to
qualify as an E-LSA plane. The power to weight ratio is about right...
Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't
want to clutter up the list with this topic.
Dave
Please do not archive
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
8/26/2007 9:34 PM
8/26/2007 9:34 PM
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Zenith-List Digest: Purchasing an incomplete homebuilt |
Bob,
The subject was recently addressed, I believe it was in KitPlanes. To meet the
rule the plane must be built 51% by amateurs. You will need to have documentation
of the previous builders. If you complete the project you can apply for the
Repairman certificate.
Craig S.
N601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235
I looked at CH601HD project, recently advertised here, and have a couple
of questions about purchasing a work in progress:
1 - Is it possible to be the A&P for a purchased project? I seem to
recall that this honor can be bestowed on the original builder and I
wonder if it is applicable to someone who finishes a project.
2 - What must be done to satisfy the FAA that you meet the 51% rule?
Thx
Bob Percival
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Message 9
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Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. The
flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test. I had
the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear aircraft
and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached 50MPH, just as I
was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel broke ground. I moved the
stick to the right and the left wheel came up and we were flying. I moved
the stick to lower the nose into a gentle climb attitude and added right
trim to bring the stick back to neutral. I then trimmed the nose up to
continue the climb at around 90 MPH, when I had a chance to look, and was at
pattern altitude before I knew it. Since the there were clouds at about
2000 feet and since I hadn't intended to fly in the first place, I decided
to make one circuit of the pattern and attempt to put the airplane back on
the runway at the first opportunity. I made a gentle left turn to cross
wind and another to down wind. Once on down wind, I reduced power to 2000
and added a bit more nose up trim. Once past the end of the runway I
reduced power to 1500 and began a smooth gradual descent. Another gentle
left turn to base and one more to final and before I knew it I was over the
end of the runway. I pulled power back to idle as I flared and the
propeller stopped just a second before I made a soft 3 point touch down. I
rolled out and slowed down and restarted the engine with the starter. My
first flight was over and it probably lasted all of 6 minutes.
So this is what I learned. First, the TD will take off in a 3 point
attitude very easily. The 601XL accelerates very quickly once the throttle
is fully open. I had heard about the left wing being heavy and needing
right trim from other first flight reports so there was no surprise there. I'm
not sure why the propeller stopped over the runway in the flair, the ground
idle speed is set to 850 and hasn't been a problem. I realized after
landing that I had forgotten to pull carb heat and it was a humid so I
suppose there might have been some carb ice but I'm not convinced of that. I
will download the EMS data and see if it contains any clue.
Even though my first flight was very short, my impression of the 601XL's
flight characteristics are that it is very much like a Citabria or even a
Cessna and I felt right at home flying it. The landing and taxi
characteristics are also very similar to the Citabria that I have done most
of my tail wheel flying in.
I will be posting some video to my web site in the near future.
Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other
builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for
supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
Bill Sewell
N601BZ
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congratulations Bill,
This is one of life's best adventures. Pleased you made it in one piece.
Do continue to fly safe,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive.
Bill Sewell wrote:
>
> Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time.
>
> Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the
> other builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my
> wife for supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
>
>
>
> Bill Sewell
>
> N601BZ
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congratulations Bill ,you have built a beautiful aircraft and did well
on your first flight .I have seen this happen before with high speed
taxing and it is nice when your plane is prepared for flight even when
it is not your intention .Thanks for the help you have given me and as
always be safe and enjoy your new toy .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Sewell
To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Zenith AC Support
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's!
Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time.
The flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test.
I had the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear
aircraft and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached
50MPH, just as I was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel broke
ground. I moved the stick to the right and the left wheel came up and
we were flying. I moved the stick to lower the nose into a gentle climb
attitude and added right trim to bring the stick back to neutral. I
then trimmed the nose up to continue the climb at around 90 MPH, when I
had a chance to look, and was at pattern altitude before I knew it.
Since the there were clouds at about 2000 feet and since I hadn't
intended to fly in the first place, I decided to make one circuit of the
pattern and attempt to put the airplane back on the runway at the first
opportunity. I made a gentle left turn to cross wind and another to
down wind. Once on down wind, I reduced power to 2000 and added a bit
more nose up trim. Once past the end of the runway I reduced power to
1500 and began a smooth gradual descent. Another gentle left turn to
base and one more to final and before I knew it I was over the end of
the runway. I pulled power back to idle as I flared and the propeller
stopped just a second before I made a soft 3 point touch down. I rolled
out and slowed down and restarted the engine with the starter. My
first flight was over and it probably lasted all of 6 minutes.
So this is what I learned. First, the TD will take off in a 3 point
attitude very easily. The 601XL accelerates very quickly once the
throttle is fully open. I had heard about the left wing being heavy and
needing right trim from other first flight reports so there was no
surprise there. I'm not sure why the propeller stopped over the runway
in the flair, the ground idle speed is set to 850 and hasn't been a
problem. I realized after landing that I had forgotten to pull carb
heat and it was a humid so I suppose there might have been some carb ice
but I'm not convinced of that. I will download the EMS data and see if
it contains any clue.
Even though my first flight was very short, my impression of the
601XL's flight characteristics are that it is very much like a Citabria
or even a Cessna and I felt right at home flying it. The landing and
taxi characteristics are also very similar to the Citabria that I have
done most of my tail wheel flying in.
I will be posting some video to my web site in the near future.
Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the
other builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife
for supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
Bill Sewell
N601BZ
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congrats and good luck tracking down the engine gremlins.
What engine are you using?
-John in Seattle
On 8/27/07, Bill Sewell <billsewell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. The
> flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test. I had
> the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear aircraft
> and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached 50MPH, just as I
> was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel broke ground. I moved
> the stick to the right and the left wheel came up and we were flying. I
> moved the stick to lower the nose into a gentle climb attitude and added
> right trim to bring the stick back to neutral. I then trimmed the nose
> up to continue the climb at around 90 MPH, when I had a chance to look, and
> was at pattern altitude before I knew it. Since the there were clouds at
> about 2000 feet and since I hadn't intended to fly in the first place, I
> decided to make one circuit of the pattern and attempt to put the airplane
> back on the runway at the first opportunity. I made a gentle left turn
> to cross wind and another to down wind. Once on down wind, I reduced
> power to 2000 and added a bit more nose up trim. Once past the end of
> the runway I reduced power to 1500 and began a smooth gradual descent. Another
> gentle left turn to base and one more to final and before I knew it I was
> over the end of the runway. I pulled power back to idle as I flared and
> the propeller stopped just a second before I made a soft 3 point touch down.
> I rolled out and slowed down and restarted the engine with the starter. My
> first flight was over and it probably lasted all of 6 minutes.
>
>
> So this is what I learned. First, the TD will take off in a 3 point
> attitude very easily. The 601XL accelerates very quickly once the
> throttle is fully open. I had heard about the left wing being heavy and
> needing right trim from other first flight reports so there was no surprise
> there. I'm not sure why the propeller stopped over the runway in the
> flair, the ground idle speed is set to 850 and hasn't been a problem. I
> realized after landing that I had forgotten to pull carb heat and it was a
> humid so I suppose there might have been some carb ice but I'm not convinced
> of that. I will download the EMS data and see if it contains any clue.
>
>
> Even though my first flight was very short, my impression of the 601XL's
> flight characteristics are that it is very much like a Citabria or even a
> Cessna and I felt right at home flying it. The landing and taxi
> characteristics are also very similar to the Citabria that I have done most
> of my tail wheel flying in.
>
>
> I will be posting some video to my web site in the near future.
>
>
> Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other
> builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for
> supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
>
>
> Bill Sewell
>
> N601BZ
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
Nearly all fuel stations that sell multiple grades of gasoline only
have two tanks, one for regular grade and one for premium grade. To
get mid grade, they just mix the regular and premium in the proper
proportion to get the mid grade anti knock rating.
On Aug 27, 2007, at 10:59 AM, David Brooks wrote:
> I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS
> owners, but my cause for posting is not.
>
> I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or
> it will knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, ....
>
>
> So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group
> are these:
> Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of
> each grade?
Yes ,mixing one gallon of 91 octane gas with two gallons of 85 octane
will give you three gallons of 87 octane.
> How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89
> octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get
> me very far.
It sounds like someone dumped some regular fuel in the premium tank.
Unfortunately, there is no simple way to test gasoline for the
proper octane level. You'll need to find out who does the inspections
of that station and complain.
>
> Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?
> Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel?
Because of the alcohol, a small amount of water will dissolve in
gasoline containing alcohol. If too much water is mixed with gasohol,
the water will settle out of the mixture instead, taking all the
alcohol with it. If there was a large amount of water settled out in
the bottom of the tank when gasoline containing alcohol was added to
the tank, it's possible that the alcohol ended up dissolved in the
water at the bottom of the tank. Since the alcohol acts as an octane
booster, this would result in a reduction in the octane rating of the
gasoline floating on top of the water in the tank.
> What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor
> replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It
> looks like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out
> the end. That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is this
> sensor really just a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be
> that simple?)
>
That's about right.
> What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and "pre-
> detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if
> they meant something different.
Knock is caused by detonation (not pre-detonation). Pre-ignition is
something entirely different.
see: http://www.hrd-performance.com/13.html
or: http://www.northernstar.ab.ca/ftp/images/pres/BrentPowers.pdf
You must live in an high altitude area if the local stations sell 85,
87 and 91 octane fuel. In the low lands, the standard grades are 87,
89 and 93 octane.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
First, my congratulations on a successful (although "unintentional") first flight.
That had to be a thrill to remember and I'm glad it went so smoothly for you.
Second, some recent posts have urged setting the idle rpm to 1,000 until the engine
has run enough (25 - 35 hrs?) to loosen up a bit. I can't speak to that since
mine isn't flying yet.
Third, I have to say that I find the "oops factor" somewhat suspicious in your
story. Hell, call me a cynic, but I wouldn't expect the general public to buy
that story at face value. I detect a touch of "Damn the torpedoes.... full speed
ahead" in the account. But hey, it's your story so stick to it. It has been
run up the flagpole and some will salute it even if there's a hint of N601BS
rather than N601BZ in it. '-)
Dred
PS: Did you buy the kit then tell your wife, "Honey, it followed me home. Can we
keep it?" As you were. Carry on.
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re:Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
You can find more info about autofuel than you want to know at Peterson's
auto fuel site (http://www.autofuelstc.com). He sells auto fuel stc's for
certified A/C and has several informative links including a page for homebuilders.
Regarding blending fuels: I recall one of the instructors discussing just that
in the classroom in military flight school back in the last half of the 20th
century. I was told that if you blended 91 and 115 octane in equal proportions,
you would wind up with something around 95 octane. We were learning about the
R1300 and R1340 and we were running on 115/145. 91/96 was approved. Caution.
This info may have been updated since. My Lycoming O-235 has a compression
ratio of 6.75:1 and its just possible that it may run OK on fuel from any third
world country. Vapor lock would be the big thing to worry about as I like to fly
high on cross country. Check the web site above for details. If "knocking" or
detonation happens, it will make your CHT go bananas. Remember that alky rots
both your brain and your carburetor.
Do not archive
Bob - Pace,FL XL/Lyc
**************************************
Get a sneak peek
of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
A big congratulations Bill, looking forward to seeing your flight video's on your
website
Eddie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131237#131237
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| Subject: | 601XL rear spar risk mitigation |
Gang:
I appreciate all the feedback I have gotten on my idea to mitigate the
risk of rear spar failures by adding a small strap to the lower spar
flange in the area of the aileron pushrod hole. This was discussed in
detail at
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html
Many people have other ideas, which is why it's called "experimental"
aviation!
I would like to add some notes:
[1] It should be straightforward to inspect the strap doubler on a
regular basis for working rivets or cracks. So an additional good
characteristic of this type of risk mitigation is that you can use it to
get some real data on the hypothetical problem. If people install the
strap and report no damage over time (50 hour intervals?), then either
there was no problem there or the minimalist fix worked like a charm.
If people later report that they are finding evidence of strap fatigue,
then we have identified a "real" problem and can work out a "real" fix.
[1a] If you install such a strap, you should note it in your builder's
log and consider putting an inspection item in your annual checklist -
"Visually inspect strap doublers on rear spar lower flange in area of
aileron pushrod for any evidence of cracks, fatigue or working rivets."
Over the years, as evidence builds, you will gain (or lose) confidence
in the design and/or strap.
[3] It was brought up to me by one respondent that for scratch builders,
there is an option to use a 2-piece rear spar, and that this design has
a larger, heavy-duty splice in the same area. If people with that
design built and flying can inspect the doubler and report its apparent
condition, those would be additional data points.
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building...
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin |
g")
You can probably bet the gas station is selling low octane in the high o
ctane pump. They know it takes some pretty complex equiptment to test th
e true octane in gas and are gambling no one is going to complain. Even
if someone did, the testers sent out by the state to comfirm the given o
ctane rating are probably not going to get an accurate number either bec
ause of various factors beyond their control. Good luck.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "David Brooks" <dkbrooks@gmail.com> wrote:
I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS owne
rs, but my cause for posting is not.
I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it wil
l knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boo
st. I normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no pr
oblems with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will onl
y light up the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on reall
y hot days when the intercooler can't keep up.
I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have be
en getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not drivin
g very hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are f
ull time cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess wa
s that I was starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings goi
ng bad and had carbon building up on the piston heads and that was causi
ng detonation. But now I am not so sure. I filled up an almost empty t
ank out of town over the weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blin
k even once. I am now wondering about the gas at my local station.
I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local
station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like
counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought thos
e were total counters, one for each underground tank but this station se
lls three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two grades of gas a
nd mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be sellin
g 87 gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away when I fill up
with 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will s
ee if both counters run at the same time.)
A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecu
le chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process,
and who knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on T
V) so I got lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the conversa
tion was that his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas (the short
er molecule chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even if mixed
with the high octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It was also h
is strongly expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were pretty useless
as well.) I want to make it clear that I am not sure I understand what
is going on in the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at
a bit of a disadvantage on this whole issue.
So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are the
se:
Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each
grade?
How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89 octane
gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very far.
Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking? Woul
d the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel?
What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor replaces
one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks like an epox
y filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out the end. That wire run
s back to the after market ECU. Is this sensor really just a microphone
listening for "knocks"? Can it be that simple?)
What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and "pre-detonation
"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if they meant someth
ing different.
What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas? Is ther
e an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all?
What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine optio
ns like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701 one of these
fine days. Honest.)
Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to
this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured
this was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find.
Asking technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets respo
nses like "Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I somet
imes think it would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify
as an E-LSA plane. The power to weight ratio is about right...
Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't wan
t to clutter up the list with this topic.
Dave
Please do not archive
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
A BIG congrats to you,,,, I bet you still have that silly grin on your f
ace too....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bill Sewell" <billsewell@gmail.com> wrote:
Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. T
he flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test.
I had the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear
aircraft and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached 50MPH
, just as I was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel broke ground
. I moved the stick to the right and the left wheel came up and we wer
e flying. I moved the stick to lower the nose into a gentle climb attit
ude and added right trim to bring the stick back to neutral. I then tr
immed the nose up to continue the climb at around 90 MPH, when I had a c
hance to look, and was at pattern altitude before I knew it. Since the
there were clouds at about 2000 feet and since I hadn't intended to fly
in the first place, I decided to make one circuit of the pattern and att
empt to put the airplane back on the runway at the first opportunity.
I made a gentle left turn to cross wind and another to down wind. Once
on down wind, I reduced power to 2000 and added a bit more nose up trim.
Once past the end of the runway I reduced power to 1500 and began a s
mooth gradual descent. Another gentle left turn to base and one more to
final and before I knew it I was over the end of the runway. I pulled
power back to idle as I flared and the propeller stopped just a second
before I made a soft 3 point touch down. I rolled out and slowed down a
nd restarted the engine with the starter. My first flight was over and
it probably lasted all of 6 minutes.
So this is what I learned. First, the TD will take off in a 3 point att
itude very easily. The 601XL accelerates very quickly once the throttl
e is fully open. I had heard about the left wing being heavy and needin
g right trim from other first flight reports so there was no surprise th
ere. I'm not sure why the propeller stopped over the runway in the fla
ir, the ground idle speed is set to 850 and hasn't been a problem. I re
alized after landing that I had forgotten to pull carb heat and it was a
humid so I suppose there might have been some carb ice but I'm not conv
inced of that. I will download the EMS data and see if it contains any
clue.
Even though my first flight was very short, my impression of the 601XL's
flight characteristics are that it is very much like a Citabria or even
a Cessna and I felt right at home flying it. The landing and taxi cha
racteristics are also very similar to the Citabria that I have done most
of my tail wheel flying in.
I will be posting some video to my web site in the near future.
Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other
builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for su
pporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
Bill Sewell
N601BZ
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
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Bill
Congradulations!! The fun begins-------
George May
601XL 912s 147hrs
>From: "Bill Sewell" <billsewell@gmail.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com, "Zenith AC Support" <support@zenithair.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's!
>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:04:46 -0400
>
>Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. The
>flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test. I had
>the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear aircraft
>and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached 50MPH, just as I
>was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel broke ground. I moved the
>stick to the right and the left wheel came up and we were flying. I moved
>the stick to lower the nose into a gentle climb attitude and added right
>trim to bring the stick back to neutral. I then trimmed the nose up to
>continue the climb at around 90 MPH, when I had a chance to look, and was
>at
>pattern altitude before I knew it. Since the there were clouds at about
>2000 feet and since I hadn't intended to fly in the first place, I decided
>to make one circuit of the pattern and attempt to put the airplane back on
>the runway at the first opportunity. I made a gentle left turn to cross
>wind and another to down wind. Once on down wind, I reduced power to 2000
>and added a bit more nose up trim. Once past the end of the runway I
>reduced power to 1500 and began a smooth gradual descent. Another gentle
>left turn to base and one more to final and before I knew it I was over the
>end of the runway. I pulled power back to idle as I flared and the
>propeller stopped just a second before I made a soft 3 point touch down. I
>rolled out and slowed down and restarted the engine with the starter. My
>first flight was over and it probably lasted all of 6 minutes.
>
>
>So this is what I learned. First, the TD will take off in a 3 point
>attitude very easily. The 601XL accelerates very quickly once the throttle
>is fully open. I had heard about the left wing being heavy and needing
>right trim from other first flight reports so there was no surprise there.
>I'm
>not sure why the propeller stopped over the runway in the flair, the ground
>idle speed is set to 850 and hasn't been a problem. I realized after
>landing that I had forgotten to pull carb heat and it was a humid so I
>suppose there might have been some carb ice but I'm not convinced of that.
>I
>will download the EMS data and see if it contains any clue.
>
>
>Even though my first flight was very short, my impression of the 601XL's
>flight characteristics are that it is very much like a Citabria or even a
>Cessna and I felt right at home flying it. The landing and taxi
>characteristics are also very similar to the Citabria that I have done most
>of my tail wheel flying in.
>
>
>I will be posting some video to my web site in the near future.
>
>
>Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other
>builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for
>supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
>
>
>Bill Sewell
>
>N601BZ
_________________________________________________________________
Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel.
http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congratulations Bill, I have been following your progress on your
website and it has really helped when I run into problems.
Great News.
Keep Safe
Matt Archer
www.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Sewell
To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Zenith AC Support
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's!
Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time.
The flight was unintentional, occurring during a high speed taxi test.
I had the stick full back as is typical when taxing a conventional gear
aircraft and as the aircraft accelerated past 40MPH and approached
50MPH, just as I was about to bring the tail up, the right wheel
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: question about fuel related to aviation. |
Boy Mark, that blue stuff looks better all the time. :D
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131269#131269
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| Subject: | Burger and a chat |
Hey List,
First a congrats to Bill and his first flight!
I hope I have a turn in the near future!!
In spring, I tried to get some of the middle TN builders together for a burger
and a chat. Just for acquaintance purposes as well as seeing what others are doing.
Someone asked if I would try again and I thought about since we are close to Jabiru
USA to see if we could get enough interest to A) just have the burger and
a chat or B) see if we can add a visit to the Jabiru house and let them display
their kits for the 601 and the 701 or any other products they wish to show
case.
Agian, this can be for central Tn area and/or for the 601 and 701 builders close
enough to drive.
If interested, respond and let me know.
I will then have a number to tell Jabiru USA on visitors. I know they did it for
EAA once!
Rich
Do not archive
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling the cockpit |
SOMETHING THAT I AM TRYING IS PUTTING A HEAT/COOL AIR VENT IN WITH THE HEATER,
WHICH IS LOCATED NEAR THE FLOOR OF THE CABIN THIS WAY I CAN HAVE HEAT IN WINTER
AND SWITCH IT TO COOL AIR WHEN HOT
GLENN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131281#131281
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congratulations, Bill! I, like others, am very grateful to you for your website.
I always seem to go to it when I have a problem, and usually find a solution
there. Thanks for all your hard work in keeping it updated. It is appreciated.
Our building speeds are about the same, so I could always depend on you
for help.
I had the same experience of "unintended flight" several years ago while high-speed
taxi testing my Dragonfly MKI. All of a sudden everything got really quiet,
and upon looking out at the end of the canard, found that my wheels were a
couple of feet in the air. I firewalled the throttle and away I went for a 45
minute first flight. The thrill was indescribable.
Again, congratulations, and please be safe!! Someday I hope to meet you in person-maybe
on one of my business trips to VA.
Do not archive.
Ron Geese
Columbus, Ohio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131282#131282
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|
Dang, I missed another one. In my defense, wife and I were helping a friend assemble
a Taylorcraft L-2, and having way too much fun watching this tube and fabric
plane return to life. We'll be certain to catch you all next week.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131283#131283
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congrats!
You inspire the rest of us.
- Pat
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131295#131295
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