Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:56 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (lgingell)
2. 03:54 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 04:05 AM - Re: Burger and a chat (Clyde Barcus)
4. 04:37 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (GLJSOJ1)
5. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Jeff)
6. 06:04 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Noel Loveys)
7. 07:04 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (ashontz)
8. 07:06 AM - Unhappness is a dead battery (robert stone)
9. 07:17 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") (ashontz)
10. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks)
11. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (David Brooks)
12. 07:25 AM - Re: 601XL rear spar risk mitigation (ashontz)
13. 07:25 AM - Painting Layout (Jaybannist@cs.com)
14. 07:34 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (ashontz)
15. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") (David Brooks)
16. 07:48 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Tommy Walker)
17. 07:49 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Gig Giacona)
18. 07:53 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Gig Giacona)
19. 07:59 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (Gig Giacona)
20. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks)
21. 08:19 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Leo Gates)
22. 08:21 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks)
23. 09:20 AM - Re: Painting Layout (Paul Mulwitz)
24. 09:21 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (DaveG601XL)
25. 09:24 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery ()
26. 09:31 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Terry Phillips)
27. 09:34 AM - Re: Painting Layout (GLENN JOHNSON)
28. 10:07 AM - RE : Unhappness is a dead battery (Jean-Paul Roy)
29. 10:14 AM - RE : Re: Painting Layout (Jean-Paul Roy)
30. 10:38 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Leo Gates)
31. 11:13 AM - Re: More dead battery (Zed Smith)
32. 11:49 AM - Re: Painting Layout ()
33. 11:52 AM - Re: RE : Re: Painting Layout (MacDonald Doug)
34. 12:36 PM - Re: LRI probe ()
35. 12:53 PM - Re: Burger and a chat (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons))
36. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: More dead battery (robert stone)
37. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: More dead battery (Leo Gates)
38. 02:14 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Robert Schoenberger)
39. 02:25 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery ()
40. 02:28 PM - solar-powered sunshine (Zed Smith)
41. 02:42 PM - Re: LRI probe (Michael Hilderbrand)
42. 02:51 PM - Re: float charger (Zed Smith)
43. 05:14 PM - Re: Burger and a chat (Wingrider)
44. 05:14 PM - HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (Peter Chapman)
45. 05:24 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Don_Lewis)
46. 07:26 PM - No slats (LRM)
47. 07:41 PM - Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (Don Mountain)
48. 08:05 PM - Re: No slats (NYTerminat@aol.com)
49. 08:11 PM - Re: Painting Layout (Ron Lendon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Big congratulations Bill! I didn't even know you got started again after completing
the airframe.
Can't wait to see the video!
..lance, 210hours
--------
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131303#131303
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
Hi Dave,
I am writing off list. Mostly, this is because I wanted to try to
answer some of your questions but I am FAR from an expert in all of
this stuff. I just have some old knowledge that might or might not
be accurate or useful.
First let me talk about octane and detonation. Please note I am not
talking about pre-detonation which is an entirely different
subject. When you want a reciprocating gasoline engine to operate
properly you want the fuel air mixture to burn in a controlled
fashion in response to a spark from the ignition system. This is
what the engine is designed for. If you run a mixture that is too
lean then the fuel can detonate instead of burning. In this case it
all "burns" at once in an explosion rather than a nice sequenced
reaction. The impulse in pressure made in this explosion happens not
only faster than a burn but it comes at the wrong time too. In the
normal detonation case, it happens when the spark plug goes off
(usually about 15 degrees rotation of the crank shaft before
top-dead-center) so the force is applied against the rotation of the
crank instead of pushing it forward. This is a good way to break
your engine - right now.
Pre-detonation (pre-ignition) is a variation on this theme. In this
case, the fuel-air mixture goes off because it is in the wrong place
in the wrong condition at the wrong time. This can be ignited by
red-hot carbon deposits in the cylinder or by the simple pressure of
the high compression (and super-charged pressure) cylinder. A higher
octane rating means the fuel is more resistant to this sort of
ignition than lower octane rated fuel. I don't have experience with
supercharged engines, but I suspect adding boost makes this kind of
ignition more likely. This is also the normal way a diesel engine
works, but it is designed to work this way and doesn't even have
spark plugs since the fuel burns instantly when injected in the high
pressure cylinder.
I don't know if you are a gun person or reloader, but there is a
corresponding issue for reloaders. The powder charge in a normal
load burns and propels the bullet down the barrel in an orderly
manner. As you reduce the charge, the amount of acceleration is
reduced -- to a point. If you get the charge too small then it
detonates instead of burning. The result is always bad -- often a
gun barrel split open and shrapnel flying around the head of the
shooter. When reloading, this is the reason you must pay attention
to the minimum powder load as well as the maximum load.
The only other comment I want to make is about fuel color codes. In
the old days 80/87 was red and 100LL was blue. If you mixed them at
all the result was clear. This is no longer an issue since you can't
get 80/87 any more.
OK, one last comment . . . I intend to use only avgas in my aviation
engine and I suggest you consider doing the same. There are a number
of reasons for this. Firstly, this is what they sell at airports and
I don't feel like hauling fuel in little cans from questionable
autogas sources to put in my plane. Secondly, the higher you fly the
more likely your fuel will evaporate right out of the tank. The real
difference between avgas and autogas is the additives in avgas that
make it less likely to evaporate under low pressure (less
volatile). Lastly, if you think it is a pain to haul fuel to your
normal airport try hauling fuel to a remote location where you land
for fuel on a cross country flight. In other words, using autogas is
very inconvenient if you fly your plane outside the local area.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:59 AM 8/27/2007, you wrote:
>I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS
>owners, but my cause for posting is not.
>
>I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it
>will knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at
>high boost. I normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town
>and have no problems with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the
>track and will only light up the knock sensor light under pretty
>extreme loads or on really hot days when the intercooler can't keep up.
>
>I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I
>have been getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am
>not driving very hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three
>of them are full time cops. Not much chance for spirited
>driving.) My best guess was that I was starting to lose a valve
>seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had carbon building up
>on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But now I am
>not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the
>weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am
>now wondering about the gas at my local station.
>
>I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my
>local station last time I was there. The pump only has two
>Hobbs-meter like counters at the top of the pump instead of
>three. I always thought those were total counters, one for each
>underground tank but this station sells three grades of gas. Could
>they be storing only two grades of gas and mixing 85 and 91 to get
>the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87 gas as 91? (I see
>one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with 91. I will put
>87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if both
>counters run at the same time.)
>
>A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline
>molecule chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining
>process, and who knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even
>play one on TV) so I got lost pretty quickly. What I did take away
>from the conversation was that his opinion was that the lower grade
>octane gas (the shorter molecule chains?) would pre-detonate under
>compression even if mixed with the high octane gas causing the whole
>mix to go up. (It was also his strongly expressed opinion that
>"octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I want to make it
>clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in the
>cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a
>disadvantage on this whole issue.
>
>So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are these:
> * Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective
> octane of each grade?
> * How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling
> 89 octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to
> get me very far.
> * Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage
> knocking? Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the
> undiluted fuel?
> * What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor
> replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It
> looks like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out
> the end. That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is this
> sensor really just a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be
> that simple?)
> * What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and
> "pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered
> if they meant something different.
> * What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane
> gas? Is there an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all?
> * What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS
> engine options like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a
> 701 one of these fine days. Honest.)
>Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related
>question to this board, but the depth of knowledge here is
>astounding and I figured this was about as good a place to go for
>help as I was likely to find. Asking technical questions on most of
>the auto lists usually gets responses like "Buy a real
>car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it
>would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an
>E-LSA plane. The power to weight ratio is about right...
>
>Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't
>want to clutter up the list with this topic.
>
>Dave
>
>Please do not archive
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Burger and a chat |
Hi Rich,
I am interested, assuming I am not traveling on that date. Also, what stage
are you in with your project? I am finally back on my project and I plan to
put some serious time on it. On a different note, I recently visited the
Nashville EAA Chapter, they had a very good program on engine maintenance
and I met some A & P's that are interested in helping me rebuild my
Continental and sign off when finished.
Clyde Barcus
601 XL, Continental Powered
Wings, Tail & Engine Complete
Working on Fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Simmons" <4rcsimmons@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Burger and a chat
>
> Hey List,
>
> First a congrats to Bill and his first flight!
>
> I hope I have a turn in the near future!!
>
> In spring, I tried to get some of the middle TN builders together for a
> burger and a chat. Just for acquaintance purposes as well as seeing what
> others are doing.
>
> Someone asked if I would try again and I thought about since we are close
> to Jabiru USA to see if we could get enough interest to A) just have the
> burger and a chat or B) see if we can add a visit to the Jabiru house and
> let them display their kits for the 601 and the 701 or any other products
> they wish to show case.
>
> Agian, this can be for central Tn area and/or for the 601 and 701 builders
> close enough to drive.
>
> If interested, respond and let me know.
>
> I will then have a number to tell Jabiru USA on visitors. I know they did
> it for EAA once!
>
> Rich
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Rich Simmons
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
CAN SOMBODY GIVE ME A LINK TO BILL'S WEBSITE
THANKS
GLENN
--------
601XL BUILDER
ALMOST DONE
CHESAPEAKE VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131312#131312
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
CAN SOMBODY GIVE ME A LINK TO BILL'S WEBSITE
THANKS
GLENN
Links to many builders' web sites, including Bill's, are at the following
URL:
http://www.ch601.org/Builder_links.htm
Jeff D.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
I also drive a Miata. One of the very first ones to come across from
the
land of the rising sun. No power steering (it's supposed to be a sports
car!) No Air conditioning ( just the drop top) No Power anything (I can
reach most anything except the outside passenger side mirror) It does
have
a half decent, for '89, stereo but it gets in the way of enjoying the
car.
Now if I could only shoe horn in a bigger engine :-)!
Now that's out of the way. The Miata has a very small tank. Around ten
Gal., 12 Gal. U.S.. If you refill from one of those service stations
that
have the one hose for all grades of gas places you will no doubt end up
pumping a considerable quantity of low octane gas into your car before
the
good stuff even gets to the nozzle.
Lets assume the inside of the hose is around 1.25 in in diameter and it
is
around 20 feet long to account for some of the plumbing that goes to the
overhead connector the hose is attached to. this gives us 93.75 cubic
inches
or .4 Gal U.S.. If you have a habit of keeping your car full and refill
the
tank as soon as the needle hits 3/4 then you actually have a lot less
high
octane gas in your tank.
This is important to an engine like the Miata and the 912/Jab or even
the
TSC'd Lycoming. They will knock like, never mind (PG 13), and you can
be
sure it isn't good for the engine either.
My advice is:
Only purchase your high octane gas at service stations where they have
dedicated nozzles for each grade of gas or put the first Gal into a
separate
container to use in your lawn mower.
Check to make sure you aren't getting fuel contaminated (no better word)
with Ethanol when buying gas for your plane. Personally because of the
increase in carbon footprint I won't use Ethanol contaminated fuel in
anything. If you want to debate that statement I'll do it off list.
Try to buy gas at busy locations. It may cost a few pennies more but
the
gas gets delivered there more often so it should be fresher.
Never add any thing to your gas. A lot of petroleum distillates will
eat
parts of your engine. I haven't seen MTBE, the agent used to increase
octane, for sale any where. But hey, if you can get it.
Noel
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: question about fuel related to aviation. |
Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel injected
engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like an odd question
but there may be something to it.
do not archive
zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote:
> [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img]
> David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the Octane loss
of Mogas. >From memory after
>
> a week 95 = 94
> two weeks 95= 92
> 3 weeks 95=90
> 4 weeks 95 = 87
> 5 weeks 95 = 84
> 3 mos ? use only to start fires
>
> And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept in dark
and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas to your plane,
after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas separates and
creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more then 3 mos for your
car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good for a year, give or take
a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in Canada Especially we have
4 different blends of fuel depending on the season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT
CARB ICING TIMES.
>
> In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more then 3
mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just bought at
a gas station is new mix and fresh.
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com)
> www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/)
>
>
> --
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328
Message 8
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| Subject: | Unhappness is a dead battery |
Members,
This message is for those of you who experence long periods between
flights in your aircraft. Since I am involved in so many other
activities I am one of those who sometimes go for a month to six weeks
before I fly my aircraft so I had a problem of the battery going dead or
so weak that it would not turn the engine over. I tried to do a prop
start one time and found out that with the Jabiru 3300 engine, this is
impossible. Anyway I solved my problem with a small charger that stays
connected to the battery all the time. I have enclosed a copy of the
add from Harbor Freight catalog so you can see the price has been
reduced. This trickle charger may be left on the battery all the time
but there are some trickle chargers that must be watched because they
are manual and will over charge and ruin the battery.
My first attempt to send this out was returned by the system as
being too large because I scanned the whole page in the Harbor Freight
catalog, I then tried to use the URL and that would not work so this is
the 4th try and I hope it goes this time.
Tracy Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin |
g")
Just to rule out any other major problems, I'd do a compression test on all the
cylinders. A month ago I had to change the head gasket in my old '85 Nissan pickup.
It was knocking like crazy. Turned out the head gasket broke right between
the #3 and #4 cylinders. No coolant leak (no white smoke out the tailpipe),
but the compressed intake from one cylinder was making it into the adjacent
cylinder during the powerstroke of the other cylinder during the 1-3-4-2 firing
order, making for a HARD knock. Seeing as how it's an boosted engine, that's
a lot of compression in there which is hard on the engine and seals.
If the compression is good, check the timing and make sure it's not too far advanced.
Depending on the year of the car, it may still have a vacuum controlled
spark advance. Setting the spark advance for the correct idle speed could do
a world of good. You'll have to move the spark advance, then the idle screw, then
the spark advance, then the idle screw etc... to get it right because one
affects the other. Once you have it close, then if it still doesn't sound right
per ear you can move the spark advance a degree or two one way or the other
to your liking, usually no more than a degree, and usually it'll need to be retarded,
not advanced.
If it's carburated, it may be time to replace some parts in there too if it's over
ten years old or so which I'm guessing it is. Specifically, replace the needle
valve, set the float, and replace the accellerator pump. A rebuild kit just
to do those parts is only $30.
The most I've ever heard out of that truck of mine when tuned and under load with
87 octane was pinging. You shouldn't hear hard knocking.
do not archive
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]You can probably bet the gas station is selling
low octane in the high octane pump. They know it takes some pretty complex equiptment
to test the true octane in gas and are gambling no one is going to complain.
Even if someone did, the testers sent out by the state to comfirm the given
octane rating are probably not going to get an accurate number either because
of various factors beyond their control. Good luck....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "David Brooks" ?wrote:
I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS owners, but
my cause for posting is not.
I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it will knock
pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boost. I normally
run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no problems with knocking
when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will only light up the knock sensor
light under pretty extreme loads or on really hot days when the intercooler
can't keep up.
I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have been getting
lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not driving very hard.
(I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are full time cops. Not
much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess was that I was starting to
lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had carbon building
up on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But now I am not so sure.
I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the weekend and I haven't
seen the knock light blink even once. I am now wondering about the gas at
my local station.
I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local station
last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like counters at the
top of the pump instead of three. I always thought those were total counters,
one for each underground tank but this station sells three grades of gas.
Could they be storing only two grades of gas and mixing 85 and 91 to get the
87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87 gas as 91? (I see one of the counters
ticking away when I fill up with 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time
it needs gas and I will see if both counters run at the same time.)
A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecule chain
length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process, and who knows
what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on TV) so I got lost pretty
quickly. What I did take away from the conversation was that his opinion
was that the lower grade octane gas (the shorter molecule chains?) would pre-detonate
under compression even if mixed with the high octane gas causing the
whole mix to go up. (It was also his strongly expressed opinion that "octane
boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I want to make it clear that I am not
sure I understand what is going on in the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so
I am starting at a bit of a disadvantage on this whole issue.
So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are these:
Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each grade?
How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89 octane gas
as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very far.
Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?? Would the
10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel? What is really going
on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor replaces one of the engine mount
bolts on the engine side. It looks like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire
lead coming out the end.? That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is
this sensor really just a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be that
simple?)
What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and "pre-detonation"? I
hear both terms used and have always wondered if they meant something different.
What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas?? Is there an octane
booster that you like? Do they even work at all? What are the minimum
octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine options like the Jabiru 3300? (I
am planning on building a 701 one of these fine days. Honest.)
Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to this board,
but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured this was about
as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find. Asking technical questions
on most of the auto lists usually gets responses like "Buy a real car".
Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it would take to the
air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an E-LSA plane. The power to weight
ratio is about right...
Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't want to clutter
up the list with this topic.
Dave
Please do not archive
>
>
> ===================================
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> ===================================
> tronics.com
> ===================================
>
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131331#131331
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really
needed to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing
around with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression
engines).
I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What started me
down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing all my
worries go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to tear down
my engine to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer have an
excuse to tear down the engine and install some more new shiny go-fast
parts. I suppose I will just have to admit the fact that I want to do it
because I can and get on with it.
Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list.
Dave
On 8/27/07, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
> I can really on help on one of your questions.
>
> Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each
> grade?
>
> Yes, when you go to a station that has 3 grades look around there are
> only, in most cases, only two tanks. This is because to make the middle
> grade the pump mixes premium and unleaded.
>
> Have you tried a full tank from another station that uses a different
> distributor? If the knocking goes away when you do the problem is with their
> gas if not it is with your car.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131201#131201
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: question about fuel related to aviation. |
That is an interesting question. I put both my Miata and a motorcycle in
storage for almost a year when I moved and unfortunately didn't have the
time (or sense?) to put fuel stabilizer in either one of them. The Miata
came out of the trailer and fired right up (with a freshly charged battery)
and the Motorcycle is a wreck. The idle jets are totally gummed up and it
only runs at full throttle (fun, if you like wheelies, but dangerous,
especially in traffic).
I am guessing that there are two reasons for the difference: the fuel Miata
injection system doesn't have as many tiny moving parts for the lacquer
build up on as the Suzuki carbs; at the same time the Miata fuel control
computer can adjust fuel mixture and spark to compensate for the imperfect
fuel in real time by reading EGT and O2 levels in the exhaust.
Dave
On 8/28/07, ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel
> injected engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like
> an odd question but there may be something to it.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote:
> > [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img]
> > David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the
> Octane loss of Mogas. >From memory after
> >
> > a week 95 = 94
> > two weeks 95= 92
> > 3 weeks 95=90
> > 4 weeks 95 = 87
> > 5 weeks 95 = 84
> > 3 mos ? use only to start fires
> >
> > And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept
> in dark and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas
> to your plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas
> separates and creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more
> then 3 mos for your car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good
> for a year, give or take a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in
> Canada Especially we have 4 different blends of fuel depending on the
> season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT CARB ICING TIMES.
> >
> > In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more
> then 3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just
> bought at a gas station is new mix and fresh.
> >
> >
> > Mark Townsend
> > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> > president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com)
> > www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/)
> >
> >
> > --
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL rear spar risk mitigation |
Not a bad idea. A better arrangement would have been to place an entire channel
inside the spar to span that area like the splice plate that's in there for when
the rear spar is made ouut of two spars butted together. Check with Mark Townsend
on that. Easy enough to make and even replace where you have that strap
and you'll probably like the idea and be more comfortable with it when you see
it. What you're really trying to do it beef up the circumference of that hole,
albeit mostly at the bottom. A plate that spans the entire hole is more "per
the book" than a strap.
Just my two cents.
[quote="a.s.elliott(at)cox.net"]Gang:
I appreciate all the feedback I have gotten on my idea to mitigate the risk of
rear spar failures by adding a small strap to the lower spar flange in the
area of the aileron pushrod hole. This was discussed in detail at
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html (http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html)
Many people have other ideas, which is why it's called "experimental" aviation!
I would like to add some notes:
[1] It should be straightforward to inspect the strap doubler on a regular basis
for working rivets or cracks. So an additional good characteristic of this
type of risk mitigation is that you can use it to get some real data on the
hypothetical problem. If people install the strap and report no damage over
time (50 hour intervals?), then either there was no problem there or the minimalist
fix worked like a charm. If people later report that they are finding
evidence of strap fatigue, then we have identified a "real" problem and can
work out a "real" fix.
[1a] If you install such a strap, you should note it in your builder's log and
consider putting an inspection item in your annual checklist - "Visually inspect
strap doublers on rear spar lower flange in area of aileron pushrod for
any evidence of cracks, fatigue or working rivets." Over the years, as evidence
builds, you will gain (or lose) confidence in the design and/or strap.
[3] It was brought up to me by one respondent that for scratch builders, there
is an option to use a 2-piece rear spar, and that this design has a larger,
heavy-duty splice in the same area. If people with that design built and flying
can inspect the doubler and report its apparent condition, those would be
additional data points.
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building...
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131333#131333
Message 13
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|
Hey Gang,
I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to do some marking
on the aluminum to get the masking accurately placed. I know that a lead
(graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is the preferred tool? I am hesitant to
use a Sharpie, because whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint.
I have considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because the
ink is water soluble. Any suggestions?
Jay in Dallas
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: question about fuel related to aviation. |
I have 3 cars, two are fuel injected and one is carburated, the carburated one
seems to be very sensitive to contaminated fuel, possibly contaminates like, oh,
I don't know, ethanol mixed in. :)
[quote="dkbrooks(at)gmail.com"]That is an interesting question. I put both my
Miata and a motorcycle in storage for almost a year when I moved and unfortunately
didn't have the time (or sense?) to put fuel stabilizer in either one of
them. The Miata came out of the trailer and fired right up (with a freshly charged
battery) and the Motorcycle is a wreck. The idle jets are totally gummed
up and it only runs at full throttle (fun, if you like wheelies, but dangerous,
especially in traffic).
I am guessing that there are two reasons for the difference: the fuel Miata injection
system doesn't have as many tiny moving parts for the lacquer build up
on as the Suzuki carbs; at the same time the Miata fuel control computer can adjust
fuel mixture and spark to compensate for the imperfect fuel in real time
by reading EGT and O2 levels in the exhaust.
Dave
Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel injected
engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like an odd question
but there may be something to it.
do not archive
zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote:
> [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img]
> David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the Octane loss
of Mogas. >From memory after
>
> a week 95 = 94
> two weeks 95= 92
> 3 weeks 95=90
> 4 weeks 95 = 87
> 5 weeks 95 = 84
> 3 mos ? use only to start fires
>
> And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept in dark
and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas to your
plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas separates and
creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more then 3 mos for your
car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good for a year, give or
take a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in Canada Especially we have
4 different blends of fuel depending on the season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT
CARB ICING TIMES.
>
> In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more then
3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just bought
at a gas station is new mix and fresh.
>
> >
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com) (president@can-zacaviation.com
(president@can-zacaviation.com))
> www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com) (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/ (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/))
>
>
> --
>
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz (http://www.mykitlog.com/ashontz)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131340#131340
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin |
g")
The compression test is a good idea. This car has not lived an easy life -
probably 500+ miles a weekend several times a year on the track under racing
(time trial) conditions at high boost. It is an amazing engine but every
mechanical system has its limits.
As for the fuel system and rebuilding the carbs I am in luck. This is a
fuel injected car and the race computer is fully mappable. I have total
control over spark timing as well as mixture all across the whole range of
throttle position, boost/vacuum, ambient air temp/pressure and RPM. Then
the computer will do real time fine adjustments for EGT and O2 as well as
knocks. (The knock sensor in this system is purely a defensive device - it
automatically enriches the air/fuel ratio and retards the timing by as much
as 5 degrees when it detects knocking. Kind of takes the wind out of the
sails but it saves the hard parts.)
Which makes me wonder why fuel injection systems like this aren't more
common on small piston planes. Wouldn't this setup also remove the
possibility of carb icing? There isn't a venturi so there shouldn't be any
rapid cooling in the intake path, ergo no ice. Or am I missing something?
Dave
Do not archive
On 8/28/07, ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
>
>
> Just to rule out any other major problems, I'd do a compression test on
> all the cylinders. A month ago I had to change the head gasket in my old '85
> Nissan pickup. It was knocking like crazy. Turned out the head gasket broke
> right between the #3 and #4 cylinders. No coolant leak (no white smoke out
> the tailpipe), but the compressed intake from one cylinder was making it
> into the adjacent cylinder during the powerstroke of the other cylinder
> during the 1-3-4-2 firing order, making for a HARD knock. Seeing as how it's
> an boosted engine, that's a lot of compression in there which is hard on the
> engine and seals.
>
> If the compression is good, check the timing and make sure it's not too
> far advanced. Depending on the year of the car, it may still have a vacuum
> controlled spark advance. Setting the spark advance for the correct idle
> speed could do a world of good. You'll have to move the spark advance, then
> the idle screw, then the spark advance, then the idle screw etc... to get it
> right because one affects the other. Once you have it close, then if it
> still doesn't sound right per ear you can move the spark advance a degree or
> two one way or the other to your liking, usually no more than a degree, and
> usually it'll need to be retarded, not advanced.
>
> If it's carburated, it may be time to replace some parts in there too if
> it's over ten years old or so which I'm guessing it is. Specifically,
> replace the needle valve, set the float, and replace the accellerator pump.
> A rebuild kit just to do those parts is only $30.
>
> The most I've ever heard out of that truck of mine when tuned and under
> load with 87 octane was pinging. You shouldn't hear hard knocking.
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
> [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]You can probably bet the gas station is
> selling low octane in the high octane pump. They know it takes some pretty
> complex equiptment to test the true octane in gas and are gambling no one is
> going to complain. Even if someone did, the testers sent out by the state to
> comfirm the given octane rating are probably not going to get an accurate
> number either because of various factors beyond their control. Good
> luck....
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- "David Brooks" ?wrote:
> I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS
> owners, but my cause for posting is not.
>
> I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it will
> knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boost. I
> normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no problems
> with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will only light up
> the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on really hot days when
> the intercooler can't keep up.
>
> I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have been
> getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not driving very
> hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are full time
> cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess was that I was
> starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had
> carbon building up on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But
> now I am not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the
> weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am now
> wondering about the gas at my local station.
>
> I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local
> station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like
> counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought those
> were total counters, one for each underground tank but this station sells
> three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two grades of gas and
> mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87
> gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with
> 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if
> both counters run at the same time.)
>
> A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecule
> chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process, and who
> knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on TV) so I got
> lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the conversation was that
> his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas (the shorter molecule
> chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even if mixed with the high
> octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It was also his strongly
> expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I
> want to make it clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in
> the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a
> disadvantage on this whole issue.
>
> So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are
> these:
> Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each
> grade? How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89
> octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very
> far.
> Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?? Would
> the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel? What is
> really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor replaces one of the
> engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks like an epoxy filled hollow
> bolt with a wire lead coming out the end.? That wire runs back to the after
> market ECU. Is this sensor really just a microphone listening for
> "knocks"? Can it be that simple?)
> What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and
> "pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if they
> meant something different.
> What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas?? Is there
> an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all? What are the
> minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine options like the
> Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701 one of these fine
> days. Honest.)
> Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to
> this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured this
> was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find. Asking
> technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets responses like
> "Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it
> would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an E-LSA
> plane. The power to weight ratio is about right...
>
> Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't want
> to clutter up the list with this topic.
>
> Dave
>
> Please do not archive
>
>
> >
> >
> > ===================================
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> > ===================================
> > tronics.com
> > ===================================
> >
> > [b]
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131331#131331
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congratulations!
So, maybe you could call yourself the "Accidental Pilot."
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Congrats on the first flight.
But this should be a reminder to all. When doing fast taxi testing, BE PREPARED
TO FLY.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131346#131346
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
Shiny, go fast parts in a Miata. How cute. :)
dkbrooks(at)gmail.com wrote:
> I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really needed
to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing around
with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression engines).
>
> I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What started me
down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing all my worries
go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to tear down my engine
to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer have an excuse to tear down
the engine and install some more new shiny go-fast parts. I suppose I will
just have to admit the fact that I want to do it because I can and get on with
it.
>
> Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list.
>
> Dave
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131349#131349
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: question about fuel related to aviation. |
Yea, there is. WW just spent some time doing it and wasn't happy with the results.
ashontz wrote:
>
>
> I'm wondering if there's some way (I'm sure there is) to hook a fuel injector
rail up to Corvair engine. I may try that when I get to that point.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131351#131351
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
Hey now...
Actually, you would probably be surprised at just how fast these things will
go. A couple of years ago I spent a beautiful weekend out at Reno Fernley
Raceway terrorizing a bunch of Corvette owners. At 185 rwhp (not stock) and
2100 pounds (with a good track suspension setup and R-compound tires) this
thing will fly past just about any street car in the corners. Sure, the
long straight down the hill was like watching a Corvette freight train go by
me, but I did have fun with them in the corners. And at 1/10 the price, the
grin/dollar ratio is really spot on. All that and I can carry two (yes
two!) whole bags of groceries in the trunk!
;)
Dave
Do not archive (as I suspect that future 601 builders probably won't be all
that interested in building a race Miata - but you never know)
On 8/28/07, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
> Shiny, go fast parts in a Miata. How cute. :)
>
>
> dkbrooks(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really
> needed to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing
> around with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression engines).
> >
> > I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What
> started me down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing
> all my worries go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to
> tear down my engine to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer
> have an excuse to tear down the engine and install some more new shiny
> go-fast parts. I suppose I will just have to admit the fact that I want to
> do it because I can and get on with it.
> >
> > Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131349#131349
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Bill, Those darn CH designs just want to fly! Oh, Joy, Joy.
Leo Gates
N601Z
do not archive.
Bill Sewell wrote:
>
> Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time.
>
> Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the
> other builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my
> wife for supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
>
>
>
> Bill Sewell
>
> N601BZ
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") |
All -
This list is fantastic. I have received so many responses with so much good
information and pointers, both on-list and off, that it is going to take me
a while to digest it all. I have tried to thank each person off-list but if
I missed you then please accept my thanks here.
I love this list. What an amazing group of knowledgeable and helpful
folks.
Dave
Do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Painting Layout |
Hi Jay,
I think you can use the Sharpie to mark your paint limits. You might
need to wait a couple of days for the paint to harden before removing
the Sharpie marks, but the paint should not be a problem once it is hardened.
My understanding is that "Enamel" paints are not subject to solvent
destruction after dry. Lacquer paints are indeed always limited in
their resistance to solvent. I also believe all the paints you are
likely to use on your plane will indeed be enamels.
You might want to conduct some tests to determine how long to let the
paint dry before attacking the marks with solvent. Indeed, I might
be wrong about all this.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:24 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
>
>Hey Gang,
>
>I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to
>do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately
>placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is
>the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because
>whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have
>considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because
>the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions?
>
>Jay in Dallas
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
I do the same thing with my motorcycle in the winter. In my area, there are enough
periods to ride during winter months that I do not winterize the bike. There
are, though, enough cold snaps to keep you from riding for a month or so.
I have the $40 Battery Tender brand that monitors the voltage and only trickle
charges when needed. Has worked well for three winters now on the same battery.
I hear that some t-hangers in my area do not have electrical power so I
have been thinking about solar alternatives. But that can all wait. I need
to finish the airplane first.
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131388#131388
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
I use a different brand of battery minder in my ultralight. I hard wired a pigtail
plug to the battery. The pigtail plug is sort of like a two wire version of
a trailer light plug. I bought that at Radio Shack and it is installed such
that the + terminal can't accidently reach ground and drain the battery. Everytime
I put the plane up in the hangar, the last action is to plug in the battery
minder and I never arrive to a dead battery. I too, have breaks in my flying
access so it is a must for me.
Dred
---- robert stone <rstone4@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> Members,
> This message is for those of you who experence long periods between flights
in your aircraft.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: N601BZ Fly's! |
Bill
Congratulations on a great building job and successful first flight. And
thank you for the great website.
Terry
do not archive
At 01:04 PM 8/27/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. ...
>
>Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other
>builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for
>supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests."
>
>
>Bill Sewell
>
>N601BZ
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 27
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I HAVEN'T PAINTED YET, BUT I WILL TRY USING PAINTERS TAPE UNTIL I GET IT L
IKE I WANT IT. IT FLEXES WELL AND SHOULDN'T PULL PAINT OFF. I USE THE BLU
E FROM SCOTCH
GLENN> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:24:53 -0400> From: Jaybannist@cs.com> To:
zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Zenith-List: Painting Layout> > --> Zen
ith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com> > Hey Gang,> > I am about to
start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to do some marking on th
e aluminum to get the masking accurately placed. I know that a lead (graphi
te)pencil is a no-no; but what is the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use
a Sharpie, because whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I h
ave considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because the
=======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Message 28
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| Subject: | Unhappness is a dead battery |
Tracy, as the picture tell, this not a trickle charger but a float charger (two
different beasts)
The float charger will do the job whereas the trickle one will ruin your battery
in about a year.
Don't ask me how I know. Too bad Harbor Freight don't deliver in Canada.
Jean-Paul
701 wings
robert stone <rstone4@hot.rr.com> a crit :
Members,
This message is for those of you who experence long periods between flights
in your aircraft. Since I am involved in so many other activities I am one
of those who sometimes go for a month to six weeks before I fly my aircraft
so I had a problem of the battery going dead or so weak that it would not turn
the engine over. I tried to do a prop start one time and found out that with
the Jabiru 3300 engine, this is impossible. Anyway I solved my problem with
a small charger that stays connected to the battery all the time. I have enclosed
a copy of the add from Harbor Freight catalog so you can see the price has
been reduced. This trickle charger may be left on the battery all the time
but there are some trickle chargers that must be watched because they are manual
and will over charge and ruin the battery.
My first attempt to send this out was returned by the system as being too
large because I scanned the whole page in the Harbor Freight catalog, I then
tried to use the URL and that would not work so this is the 4th try and I hope
it goes this time.
Tracy Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
---------------------------------
Combattez les mchants pourriels... Le filtre SpamGuard vous aide lutter efficacement
contre les pourriels sur le Tout-nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Painting Layout |
Hello Jay. How about using a little piece of masking tape temporiraly applied until
you have the proper tape in place.
Hope this helps
Jean-Paul
Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> a crit :
Hi Jay,
I think you can use the Sharpie to mark your paint limits. You might
need to wait a couple of days for the paint to harden before removing
the Sharpie marks, but the paint should not be a problem once it is hardened.
My understanding is that "Enamel" paints are not subject to solvent
destruction after dry. Lacquer paints are indeed always limited in
their resistance to solvent. I also believe all the paints you are
likely to use on your plane will indeed be enamels.
You might want to conduct some tests to determine how long to let the
paint dry before attacking the marks with solvent. Indeed, I might
be wrong about all this.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:24 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
>
>Hey Gang,
>
>I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to
>do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately
>placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is
>the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because
>whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have
>considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because
>the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions?
>
>Jay in Dallas
---------------------------------
Dcouvrez ce qui fait jaser les gens ! Visitez les groupes de l'heure sur Yahoo!
Qubec Groupes.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
List,
I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I
bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is mounted
behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the side of the
fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the wing. Wired the
Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it plugged in all the time -
except in-flight. (:-)
Leo Gates
N601Z
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: More dead battery |
If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long extension cord.
However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for various appliances,
there is another approach if you are parked outside.
There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter plug on about
ten feet of wire.
These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge.
Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the battery never
sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2 inches, a few ounces,
a few dollars.
We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it works very
well.
You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle is always connected
to the battery and not through the master.....or just install one for
this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the instrument panel and soak up
that free sunshine.
do not archive
regards,
Zed/701/R912
Message 32
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Don't use the blue or the purple painter's tape to do your actual masking on the
plane. It will leak paint at places no matter how hard you try to stop it. That
stuff only works reasonably for latex paints in my experience. Use that blue
stuff to mark where the next color will be. Then position real masking tape
next to the painter's tape using it as a guide. Once the masking tape is in place,
the painter's tape is removed and the painting continues. That way you have
the ease of placement and removal offered by the blue stuff to set the design
then the superioir sealing of regular masking tape when you are painting.
Dred
---- GLENN JOHNSON <gljno10@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> I HAVEN'T PAINTED YET, BUT I WILL TRY USING PAINTERS TAPE UNTIL I GET IT LIKE
I WANT IT. IT FLEXES WELL AND SHOULDN'T PULL PAINT OFF. I USE THE BLUE FROM
SCOTCH
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Painting Layout |
A fine tip dry erase marker might also work for
layout. You then don't have to worry about using
solvents to remove the marks after your masking is
layed out.
Do not Archive
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scatch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
--- Jean-Paul Roy <royjp@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hello Jay. How about using a little piece of masking
> tape temporiraly applied until you have the proper
> tape in place.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Jean-Paul
>
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
Message 34
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Last year I saw a commercial version of the LRI probe at Oshkosh. As I remember
the probe was streamlined from ~1" from the working end up to the mounting hole.
If I remember correctly the "kit" with probe, gauge and tubing was $400 -
$500.
Craig S.
N601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235
I have made the LRI probe from the data available on the ch601.org
site. The profile is not very streamlined and I wonder just how much I
can radius it to give a more areodynamic profile with out effecting the
accuracy. I am assuming that the 45 degree corner is important but how
about the rest of it?
alex t.
-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
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Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Burger and a chat |
Hey folks,
Pete from Jabiru USA says he would be glad to host an event.
Those interested in the Jabiru engine for the 601 or 701, let me know and I will
try and get a date set.
Do not archive
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)
> Hey List,
>
> First a congrats to Bill and his first flight!
>
> I hope I have a turn in the near future!!
>
> In spring, I tried to get some of the middle TN builders together for a burger
> and a chat. Just for acquaintance purposes as well as seeing what others are
> doing.
>
> Someone asked if I would try again and I thought about since we are close to
> Jabiru USA to see if we could get enough interest to A) just have the burger
and
> a chat or B) see if we can add a visit to the Jabiru house and let them display
> their kits for the 601 and the 701 or any other products they wish to show case.
>
> Agian, this can be for central Tn area and/or for the 601 and 701 builders close
> enough to drive.
>
> If interested, respond and let me know.
>
> I will then have a number to tell Jabiru USA on visitors. I know they did it
for
> EAA once!
>
> Rich
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Rich Simmons
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: More dead battery |
Zed,
Where can some of these solar panels be obtained? Are they available
to the public?
Tracy Stone
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zed Smith" <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery
>
> If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long extension
> cord.
>
> However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for
> various appliances, there is another approach if you are parked outside.
>
> There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter plug
> on about ten feet of wire.
> These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge.
>
> Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the
> battery never sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2
> inches, a few ounces, a few dollars.
>
> We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it
> works very well.
>
> You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle is
> always connected to the battery and not through the master.....or just
> install one for this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the
> instrument panel and soak up that free sunshine.
>
> do not archive
>
> regards,
>
> Zed/701/R912
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: More dead battery |
Robert I have one I got from J. C. Whitney.
www.jcwhitney.com From their aviation parts department, of course.
Leo Gates
Do not archive
robert stone wrote:
>
> Zed,
> Where can some of these solar panels be obtained? Are they
> available to the public?
>
> Tracy Stone
>
> Do not archive
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:10 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery
>
>
>>
>> If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long
>> extension cord.
>>
>> However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for
>> various appliances, there is another approach if you are parked outside.
>>
>> There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter
>> plug on about ten feet of wire.
>> These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge.
>>
>> Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the
>> battery never sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2
>> inches, a few ounces, a few dollars.
>>
>> We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it
>> works very well.
>>
>> You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle
>> is always connected to the battery and not through the master.....or
>> just install one for this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the
>> instrument panel and soak up that free sunshine.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive.
Leo Gates wrote:
>
> List,
>
> I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I
> bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is
> mounted behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the
> side of the fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the
> wing. Wired the Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it plugged
> in all the time - except in-flight. (:-)
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
A float charger, AKA battey minder, is a charger which remains connected to the
battery for extended intervals. It monitors the charge status of the battery
and only charges until the battery is "topped off" then goes back to monitior
mode. It won't just keep charging indiscriminately until it cooks your battery
to a premature death.
Dred
---- Robert Schoenberger <hrs1@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive.
Message 40
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| Subject: | solar-powered sunshine |
Robert, and all.....
Just Google for "solar battery charger" and you'll get more hits than you'll need.
I bought one several years ago to keep car battery up while parked several days
at a time at airports.
It was about the size of the fold-down sun visor on a car or pickup. Plug it into
the lighter recept, lay the panel on the dash, ride the shuttle to check-in.
Outdoor parking is cheaper than covered, and you can get a free wash job if
it rains! Or free hail dings. Have had both.
Folks who keep boats tied up at marinas, and only use the boat once or twice a
year, find these to be good investments.....it is difficult to start a boat motor
by pushing the boat. Likewise with motorhomes. I saw one installation atop
a golf cart. Three 12-volt panels in series.
One of my generator installations has a larger panel, probably two feet square.
In bright sun it has nearly 18 volts open circuit. It can cause one to add
a lot of water to the battery over the span of a year.
The "regulator" I mentioned is a small plastic cube, potted so you can't see all
the Radio Shack components. It has three wires: In, Out, and Ground. Easy!
Regulators come in several sizes (current-handling capability) as do arrays of
solar panels.
The regulator prevents overcharging, prevents boiling all the water.
You'll find the Internet abounds with all this good stuff.
Good Googling,
Zed
do not archive
Message 41
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|
http://www.liftreserve.com/=0A=0AHere is the one I am buying. =0A =0AMichae
l Hilderbrand=0ADerby, Kansas=0AHttp://www.kansasflying.com=0A=0A=0A=0A----
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Craig.Spainhower@exeloncorp.com" <Craig.Sp
ainhower@exeloncorp.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, A
ugust 28, 2007 2:34:51 PM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI probe=0A=0A=0A-->
Zenith-List message posted by: <Craig.Spainhower@exeloncorp.com>=0A=0ALast
year I saw a commercial version of the LRI probe at Oshkosh. As I remember
the probe was streamlined from ~1" from the working end up to the mounting
hole. If I remember correctly the "kit" with probe, gauge and tubing was $
400 - $500.=0A=0ACraig S.=0AN601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235=0A=0A=0AI have made the
LRI probe from the data available on the ch601.org =0Asite. The profile is
not very streamlined and I wonder just how much I =0Acan radius it to give
a more areodynamic profile with out effecting the =0Aaccuracy. I am assu
ming that the 45 degree corner is important but how =0Aabout the rest of it
?=0A
=0A alex t.=0A=0A---------
--------------------------------=0A****************************************
**********=0AThis e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon=0ACo
rporation proprietary information, which is privileged,=0Aconfidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon=0ACorporation family of Compan
ies.=0AThis e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or=0Aen
tity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended=0Arecipient of
this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any=0Adissemination, distribution
, copying, or action taken in relation=0Ato the contents of and attachments
to this e-mail is strictly=0Aprohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this e-mail=0Ain error, please notify the sender immediately and p
ermanently=0Adelete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printo
ut.=0AThank You.=0A**************************************************=0A=0A
=
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: float charger |
do not archive
There are two types of float chargers.
One is used to charge floats.
The other is highly classified (only used aboard navel vessels).
In the first case, any time a float doesn't it may be in need of charging. Use
this type.
In the latter case, if the ship sinks, it'll no longer be afloat.
All seriousness aside, there are two terms commonly applied to the maintenance
of banks of cells as might be used in microwave sites, telephone central offices,
etc. The bank of cells connected together makes up the "station battery".
This is a nominal 48 volts in U.S. phone installations; Float may be set to
56 volts. This "equalizes" the cells.
The charger usually has two settings.....the Float setting at nominal station voltage
to supply the DC used by the attached equipment, and, the Equalize setting
at some higher voltage. The Equalize kicks in once a month or at some other
predetermined time, and slightly "overcharges" the bank for some period.....maybe
24 hours.
Thus the terms "float" and "equalize".
Nothing much to worry about when building airplanes with one battery containing
six cells.
The prop, on the other hand, does have a prime function: Keep the pilot cool.
This is proved by watching him sweat if the prop quits.
Regards,
Zed
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Burger and a chat |
I'm interested if I'm not traveling also. Couldn't make the last one hopefully
I can this time.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131478#131478
Message 44
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| Subject: | HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets |
Just to mention a maintenance issue I recently found.
This was on a 601 HDS with 450 engine hours (vs. fewer flight hours).
The ramps on which the nose gear steering rod rests, appear to attach
to the U-channel that runs up the firewall, with a bolt and (I think)
an A5 rivet on each side.
On both sides, the A5 was found at an annual inspection to be sheared off.
The ca. 1995 kit was from an era when everything was steel on steel,
with no nylon in the gear slide assemblies. However, this aircraft
was built with a nylon block below the strap that is bolted under the
fuselage, which holds the nose gear tube. A couple of bolts
connecting the strap to the fuselage appear slightly loose, something
I'm now looking into. They're in the first row aft of the firewall,
as if the strap were getting bent up and down, more likely once those
rivets sheared. (Even in the small version of the photo attached,
one bolt head appears to not be flush with the strap.)
It might be possible to replace the rivets with bolts, but there is
limited space on the inside of the U-channel because of other bolts
coming up vertically in that area.
Clearly there's some stress on the area. The aircraft flies mainly
off pavement but from time to time uses a grass runway, and we know
how stiff the bungee gear system is.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Unhappness is a dead battery |
See this
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm
I think VDC makes the best... I have 4 of them... You can catch
them on sale for $ 40- $50... Worth every penny....
Don n FTW
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Schoenberger
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery
<hrs1@frontiernet.net>
What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive.
Leo Gates wrote:
>
> List,
>
> I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I
> bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is
> mounted behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the
> side of the fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the
> wing. Wired the Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it
plugged
> in all the time - except in-flight. (:-)
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without
slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the
previous owner. I have to admit they are not workmanship up to my
standards but they are ok and as good as most. They are now for sale
with brackets, real cheap. Pick up only. E-mail me with an offer I
can't refuse. I'm talking about, like almost take them off my hands.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 47
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| Subject: | Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts |
I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL,
and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts
on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking
ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished
planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at
all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am
not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range.
How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature
type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the
self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall
and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on?
Don Mountain
---------------------------------
Message 48
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OH, NO not you too Larry!!!!!!! Sorry I couldn't resist, just kidding.
Bob Spudis do not archive
After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without
slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the previous
owner.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Painting Layout |
I have seen this done. Find 1/8" wide masking tape for doing the complex shapes.
OR use 3/4" tape over the joint, mark the tape, cut with an exatco knife and lift
the side you don't want.
Just some thoughts,
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131499#131499
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