---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/28/07: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:56 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (lgingell) 2. 03:54 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 04:05 AM - Re: Burger and a chat (Clyde Barcus) 4. 04:37 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (GLJSOJ1) 5. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Jeff) 6. 06:04 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Noel Loveys) 7. 07:04 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (ashontz) 8. 07:06 AM - Unhappness is a dead battery (robert stone) 9. 07:17 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") (ashontz) 10. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks) 11. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (David Brooks) 12. 07:25 AM - Re: 601XL rear spar risk mitigation (ashontz) 13. 07:25 AM - Painting Layout (Jaybannist@cs.com) 14. 07:34 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (ashontz) 15. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") (David Brooks) 16. 07:48 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Tommy Walker) 17. 07:49 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Gig Giacona) 18. 07:53 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (Gig Giacona) 19. 07:59 AM - Re: question about fuel related to aviation. (Gig Giacona) 20. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks) 21. 08:19 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Leo Gates) 22. 08:21 AM - Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") (David Brooks) 23. 09:20 AM - Re: Painting Layout (Paul Mulwitz) 24. 09:21 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (DaveG601XL) 25. 09:24 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery () 26. 09:31 AM - Re: N601BZ Fly's! (Terry Phillips) 27. 09:34 AM - Re: Painting Layout (GLENN JOHNSON) 28. 10:07 AM - RE : Unhappness is a dead battery (Jean-Paul Roy) 29. 10:14 AM - RE : Re: Painting Layout (Jean-Paul Roy) 30. 10:38 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Leo Gates) 31. 11:13 AM - Re: More dead battery (Zed Smith) 32. 11:49 AM - Re: Painting Layout () 33. 11:52 AM - Re: RE : Re: Painting Layout (MacDonald Doug) 34. 12:36 PM - Re: LRI probe () 35. 12:53 PM - Re: Burger and a chat (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 36. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: More dead battery (robert stone) 37. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: More dead battery (Leo Gates) 38. 02:14 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Robert Schoenberger) 39. 02:25 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery () 40. 02:28 PM - solar-powered sunshine (Zed Smith) 41. 02:42 PM - Re: LRI probe (Michael Hilderbrand) 42. 02:51 PM - Re: float charger (Zed Smith) 43. 05:14 PM - Re: Burger and a chat (Wingrider) 44. 05:14 PM - HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (Peter Chapman) 45. 05:24 PM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Don_Lewis) 46. 07:26 PM - No slats (LRM) 47. 07:41 PM - Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (Don Mountain) 48. 08:05 PM - Re: No slats (NYTerminat@aol.com) 49. 08:11 PM - Re: Painting Layout (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601BZ Fly's! From: "lgingell" Big congratulations Bill! I didn't even know you got started again after completing the airframe. Can't wait to see the video! ..lance, 210hours -------- Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131303#131303 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:18 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") Hi Dave, I am writing off list. Mostly, this is because I wanted to try to answer some of your questions but I am FAR from an expert in all of this stuff. I just have some old knowledge that might or might not be accurate or useful. First let me talk about octane and detonation. Please note I am not talking about pre-detonation which is an entirely different subject. When you want a reciprocating gasoline engine to operate properly you want the fuel air mixture to burn in a controlled fashion in response to a spark from the ignition system. This is what the engine is designed for. If you run a mixture that is too lean then the fuel can detonate instead of burning. In this case it all "burns" at once in an explosion rather than a nice sequenced reaction. The impulse in pressure made in this explosion happens not only faster than a burn but it comes at the wrong time too. In the normal detonation case, it happens when the spark plug goes off (usually about 15 degrees rotation of the crank shaft before top-dead-center) so the force is applied against the rotation of the crank instead of pushing it forward. This is a good way to break your engine - right now. Pre-detonation (pre-ignition) is a variation on this theme. In this case, the fuel-air mixture goes off because it is in the wrong place in the wrong condition at the wrong time. This can be ignited by red-hot carbon deposits in the cylinder or by the simple pressure of the high compression (and super-charged pressure) cylinder. A higher octane rating means the fuel is more resistant to this sort of ignition than lower octane rated fuel. I don't have experience with supercharged engines, but I suspect adding boost makes this kind of ignition more likely. This is also the normal way a diesel engine works, but it is designed to work this way and doesn't even have spark plugs since the fuel burns instantly when injected in the high pressure cylinder. I don't know if you are a gun person or reloader, but there is a corresponding issue for reloaders. The powder charge in a normal load burns and propels the bullet down the barrel in an orderly manner. As you reduce the charge, the amount of acceleration is reduced -- to a point. If you get the charge too small then it detonates instead of burning. The result is always bad -- often a gun barrel split open and shrapnel flying around the head of the shooter. When reloading, this is the reason you must pay attention to the minimum powder load as well as the maximum load. The only other comment I want to make is about fuel color codes. In the old days 80/87 was red and 100LL was blue. If you mixed them at all the result was clear. This is no longer an issue since you can't get 80/87 any more. OK, one last comment . . . I intend to use only avgas in my aviation engine and I suggest you consider doing the same. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, this is what they sell at airports and I don't feel like hauling fuel in little cans from questionable autogas sources to put in my plane. Secondly, the higher you fly the more likely your fuel will evaporate right out of the tank. The real difference between avgas and autogas is the additives in avgas that make it less likely to evaporate under low pressure (less volatile). Lastly, if you think it is a pain to haul fuel to your normal airport try hauling fuel to a remote location where you land for fuel on a cross country flight. In other words, using autogas is very inconvenient if you fly your plane outside the local area. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage At 07:59 AM 8/27/2007, you wrote: >I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS >owners, but my cause for posting is not. > >I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it >will knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at >high boost. I normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town >and have no problems with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the >track and will only light up the knock sensor light under pretty >extreme loads or on really hot days when the intercooler can't keep up. > >I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I >have been getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am >not driving very hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three >of them are full time cops. Not much chance for spirited >driving.) My best guess was that I was starting to lose a valve >seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had carbon building up >on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But now I am >not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the >weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am >now wondering about the gas at my local station. > >I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my >local station last time I was there. The pump only has two >Hobbs-meter like counters at the top of the pump instead of >three. I always thought those were total counters, one for each >underground tank but this station sells three grades of gas. Could >they be storing only two grades of gas and mixing 85 and 91 to get >the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87 gas as 91? (I see >one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with 91. I will put >87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if both >counters run at the same time.) > >A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline >molecule chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining >process, and who knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even >play one on TV) so I got lost pretty quickly. What I did take away >from the conversation was that his opinion was that the lower grade >octane gas (the shorter molecule chains?) would pre-detonate under >compression even if mixed with the high octane gas causing the whole >mix to go up. (It was also his strongly expressed opinion that >"octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I want to make it >clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in the >cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a >disadvantage on this whole issue. > >So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are these: > * Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective > octane of each grade? > * How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling > 89 octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to > get me very far. > * Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage > knocking? Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the > undiluted fuel? > * What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor > replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It > looks like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out > the end. That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is this > sensor really just a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be > that simple?) > * What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and > "pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered > if they meant something different. > * What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane > gas? Is there an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all? > * What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS > engine options like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a > 701 one of these fine days. Honest.) >Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related >question to this board, but the depth of knowledge here is >astounding and I figured this was about as good a place to go for >help as I was likely to find. Asking technical questions on most of >the auto lists usually gets responses like "Buy a real >car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it >would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an >E-LSA plane. The power to weight ratio is about right... > >Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't >want to clutter up the list with this topic. > >Dave > >Please do not archive > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:22 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Burger and a chat Hi Rich, I am interested, assuming I am not traveling on that date. Also, what stage are you in with your project? I am finally back on my project and I plan to put some serious time on it. On a different note, I recently visited the Nashville EAA Chapter, they had a very good program on engine maintenance and I met some A & P's that are interested in helping me rebuild my Continental and sign off when finished. Clyde Barcus 601 XL, Continental Powered Wings, Tail & Engine Complete Working on Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Simmons" <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 8:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Burger and a chat > > Hey List, > > First a congrats to Bill and his first flight! > > I hope I have a turn in the near future!! > > In spring, I tried to get some of the middle TN builders together for a > burger and a chat. Just for acquaintance purposes as well as seeing what > others are doing. > > Someone asked if I would try again and I thought about since we are close > to Jabiru USA to see if we could get enough interest to A) just have the > burger and a chat or B) see if we can add a visit to the Jabiru house and > let them display their kits for the 601 and the 701 or any other products > they wish to show case. > > Agian, this can be for central Tn area and/or for the 601 and 701 builders > close enough to drive. > > If interested, respond and let me know. > > I will then have a number to tell Jabiru USA on visitors. I know they did > it for EAA once! > > Rich > > Do not archive > > > -- > Thanks, > Rich Simmons > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601BZ Fly's! From: "GLJSOJ1" CAN SOMBODY GIVE ME A LINK TO BILL'S WEBSITE THANKS GLENN -------- 601XL BUILDER ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131312#131312 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:19 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: N601BZ Fly's! CAN SOMBODY GIVE ME A LINK TO BILL'S WEBSITE THANKS GLENN Links to many builders' web sites, including Bill's, are at the following URL: http://www.ch601.org/Builder_links.htm Jeff D. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:31 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's! I also drive a Miata. One of the very first ones to come across from the land of the rising sun. No power steering (it's supposed to be a sports car!) No Air conditioning ( just the drop top) No Power anything (I can reach most anything except the outside passenger side mirror) It does have a half decent, for '89, stereo but it gets in the way of enjoying the car. Now if I could only shoe horn in a bigger engine :-)! Now that's out of the way. The Miata has a very small tank. Around ten Gal., 12 Gal. U.S.. If you refill from one of those service stations that have the one hose for all grades of gas places you will no doubt end up pumping a considerable quantity of low octane gas into your car before the good stuff even gets to the nozzle. Lets assume the inside of the hose is around 1.25 in in diameter and it is around 20 feet long to account for some of the plumbing that goes to the overhead connector the hose is attached to. this gives us 93.75 cubic inches or .4 Gal U.S.. If you have a habit of keeping your car full and refill the tank as soon as the needle hits 3/4 then you actually have a lot less high octane gas in your tank. This is important to an engine like the Miata and the 912/Jab or even the TSC'd Lycoming. They will knock like, never mind (PG 13), and you can be sure it isn't good for the engine either. My advice is: Only purchase your high octane gas at service stations where they have dedicated nozzles for each grade of gas or put the first Gal into a separate container to use in your lawn mower. Check to make sure you aren't getting fuel contaminated (no better word) with Ethanol when buying gas for your plane. Personally because of the increase in carbon footprint I won't use Ethanol contaminated fuel in anything. If you want to debate that statement I'll do it off list. Try to buy gas at busy locations. It may cost a few pennies more but the gas gets delivered there more often so it should be fresher. Never add any thing to your gas. A lot of petroleum distillates will eat parts of your engine. I haven't seen MTBE, the agent used to increase octane, for sale any where. But hey, if you can get it. Noel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. From: "ashontz" Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel injected engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like an odd question but there may be something to it. do not archive zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: > [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img] > David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the Octane loss of Mogas. >From memory after > > a week 95 = 94 > two weeks 95= 92 > 3 weeks 95=90 > 4 weeks 95 = 87 > 5 weeks 95 = 84 > 3 mos ? use only to start fires > > And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept in dark and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas to your plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas separates and creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more then 3 mos for your car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good for a year, give or take a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in Canada Especially we have 4 different blends of fuel depending on the season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT CARB ICING TIMES. > > In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more then 3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just bought at a gas station is new mix and fresh. > > > Mark Townsend > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. > president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com) > www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/) > > > -- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:22 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery Members, This message is for those of you who experence long periods between flights in your aircraft. Since I am involved in so many other activities I am one of those who sometimes go for a month to six weeks before I fly my aircraft so I had a problem of the battery going dead or so weak that it would not turn the engine over. I tried to do a prop start one time and found out that with the Jabiru 3300 engine, this is impossible. Anyway I solved my problem with a small charger that stays connected to the battery all the time. I have enclosed a copy of the add from Harbor Freight catalog so you can see the price has been reduced. This trickle charger may be left on the battery all the time but there are some trickle chargers that must be watched because they are manual and will over charge and ruin the battery. My first attempt to send this out was returned by the system as being too large because I scanned the whole page in the Harbor Freight catalog, I then tried to use the URL and that would not work so this is the 4th try and I hope it goes this time. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") From: "ashontz" Just to rule out any other major problems, I'd do a compression test on all the cylinders. A month ago I had to change the head gasket in my old '85 Nissan pickup. It was knocking like crazy. Turned out the head gasket broke right between the #3 and #4 cylinders. No coolant leak (no white smoke out the tailpipe), but the compressed intake from one cylinder was making it into the adjacent cylinder during the powerstroke of the other cylinder during the 1-3-4-2 firing order, making for a HARD knock. Seeing as how it's an boosted engine, that's a lot of compression in there which is hard on the engine and seals. If the compression is good, check the timing and make sure it's not too far advanced. Depending on the year of the car, it may still have a vacuum controlled spark advance. Setting the spark advance for the correct idle speed could do a world of good. You'll have to move the spark advance, then the idle screw, then the spark advance, then the idle screw etc... to get it right because one affects the other. Once you have it close, then if it still doesn't sound right per ear you can move the spark advance a degree or two one way or the other to your liking, usually no more than a degree, and usually it'll need to be retarded, not advanced. If it's carburated, it may be time to replace some parts in there too if it's over ten years old or so which I'm guessing it is. Specifically, replace the needle valve, set the float, and replace the accellerator pump. A rebuild kit just to do those parts is only $30. The most I've ever heard out of that truck of mine when tuned and under load with 87 octane was pinging. You shouldn't hear hard knocking. do not archive [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]You can probably bet the gas station is selling low octane in the high octane pump. They know it takes some pretty complex equiptment to test the true octane in gas and are gambling no one is going to complain. Even if someone did, the testers sent out by the state to comfirm the given octane rating are probably not going to get an accurate number either because of various factors beyond their control. Good luck.... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "David Brooks" ?wrote: I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS owners, but my cause for posting is not. I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it will knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boost. I normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no problems with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will only light up the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on really hot days when the intercooler can't keep up. I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have been getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not driving very hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are full time cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess was that I was starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had carbon building up on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But now I am not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am now wondering about the gas at my local station. I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought those were total counters, one for each underground tank but this station sells three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two grades of gas and mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87 gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if both counters run at the same time.) A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecule chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process, and who knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on TV) so I got lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the conversation was that his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas (the shorter molecule chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even if mixed with the high octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It was also his strongly expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I want to make it clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a disadvantage on this whole issue. So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are these: Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each grade? How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89 octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very far. Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?? Would the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel? What is really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor replaces one of the engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks like an epoxy filled hollow bolt with a wire lead coming out the end.? That wire runs back to the after market ECU. Is this sensor really just a microphone listening for "knocks"? Can it be that simple?) What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and "pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if they meant something different. What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas?? Is there an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all? What are the minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine options like the Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701 one of these fine days. Honest.) Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured this was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find. Asking technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets responses like "Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an E-LSA plane. The power to weight ratio is about right... Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't want to clutter up the list with this topic. Dave Please do not archive > > > =================================== > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > =================================== > tronics.com > =================================== > > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131331#131331 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:59 AM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really needed to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing around with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression engines). I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What started me down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing all my worries go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to tear down my engine to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer have an excuse to tear down the engine and install some more new shiny go-fast parts. I suppose I will just have to admit the fact that I want to do it because I can and get on with it. Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list. Dave On 8/27/07, Gig Giacona wrote: > > wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> > > I can really on help on one of your questions. > > Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each > grade? > > Yes, when you go to a station that has 3 grades look around there are > only, in most cases, only two tanks. This is because to make the middle > grade the pump mixes premium and unleaded. > > Have you tried a full tank from another station that uses a different > distributor? If the knocking goes away when you do the problem is with their > gas if not it is with your car. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131201#131201 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:14 AM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. That is an interesting question. I put both my Miata and a motorcycle in storage for almost a year when I moved and unfortunately didn't have the time (or sense?) to put fuel stabilizer in either one of them. The Miata came out of the trailer and fired right up (with a freshly charged battery) and the Motorcycle is a wreck. The idle jets are totally gummed up and it only runs at full throttle (fun, if you like wheelies, but dangerous, especially in traffic). I am guessing that there are two reasons for the difference: the fuel Miata injection system doesn't have as many tiny moving parts for the lacquer build up on as the Suzuki carbs; at the same time the Miata fuel control computer can adjust fuel mixture and spark to compensate for the imperfect fuel in real time by reading EGT and O2 levels in the exhaust. Dave On 8/28/07, ashontz wrote: > > > Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel > injected engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like > an odd question but there may be something to it. > > do not archive > > > zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: > > [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img] > > David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the > Octane loss of Mogas. >From memory after > > > > a week 95 = 94 > > two weeks 95= 92 > > 3 weeks 95=90 > > 4 weeks 95 = 87 > > 5 weeks 95 = 84 > > 3 mos ? use only to start fires > > > > And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept > in dark and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas > to your plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas > separates and creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more > then 3 mos for your car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good > for a year, give or take a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in > Canada Especially we have 4 different blends of fuel depending on the > season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT CARB ICING TIMES. > > > > In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more > then 3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just > bought at a gas station is new mix and fresh. > > > > > > Mark Townsend > > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. > > president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com) > > www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/) > > > > > > -- > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL rear spar risk mitigation From: "ashontz" Not a bad idea. A better arrangement would have been to place an entire channel inside the spar to span that area like the splice plate that's in there for when the rear spar is made ouut of two spars butted together. Check with Mark Townsend on that. Easy enough to make and even replace where you have that strap and you'll probably like the idea and be more comfortable with it when you see it. What you're really trying to do it beef up the circumference of that hole, albeit mostly at the bottom. A plate that spans the entire hole is more "per the book" than a strap. Just my two cents. [quote="a.s.elliott(at)cox.net"]Gang: I appreciate all the feedback I have gotten on my idea to mitigate the risk of rear spar failures by adding a small strap to the lower spar flange in the area of the aileron pushrod hole. This was discussed in detail at http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html (http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html) Many people have other ideas, which is why it's called "experimental" aviation! I would like to add some notes: [1] It should be straightforward to inspect the strap doubler on a regular basis for working rivets or cracks. So an additional good characteristic of this type of risk mitigation is that you can use it to get some real data on the hypothetical problem. If people install the strap and report no damage over time (50 hour intervals?), then either there was no problem there or the minimalist fix worked like a charm. If people later report that they are finding evidence of strap fatigue, then we have identified a "real" problem and can work out a "real" fix. [1a] If you install such a strap, you should note it in your builder's log and consider putting an inspection item in your annual checklist - "Visually inspect strap doublers on rear spar lower flange in area of aileron pushrod for any evidence of cracks, fatigue or working rivets." Over the years, as evidence builds, you will gain (or lose) confidence in the design and/or strap. [3] It was brought up to me by one respondent that for scratch builders, there is an option to use a 2-piece rear spar, and that this design has a larger, heavy-duty splice in the same area. If people with that design built and flying can inspect the doubler and report its apparent condition, those would be additional data points. FWIW, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131333#131333 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:47 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Hey Gang, I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions? Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. From: "ashontz" I have 3 cars, two are fuel injected and one is carburated, the carburated one seems to be very sensitive to contaminated fuel, possibly contaminates like, oh, I don't know, ethanol mixed in. :) [quote="dkbrooks(at)gmail.com"]That is an interesting question. I put both my Miata and a motorcycle in storage for almost a year when I moved and unfortunately didn't have the time (or sense?) to put fuel stabilizer in either one of them. The Miata came out of the trailer and fired right up (with a freshly charged battery) and the Motorcycle is a wreck. The idle jets are totally gummed up and it only runs at full throttle (fun, if you like wheelies, but dangerous, especially in traffic). I am guessing that there are two reasons for the difference: the fuel Miata injection system doesn't have as many tiny moving parts for the lacquer build up on as the Suzuki carbs; at the same time the Miata fuel control computer can adjust fuel mixture and spark to compensate for the imperfect fuel in real time by reading EGT and O2 levels in the exhaust. Dave Has anyone noticed any difference between carburated engines and fuel injected engines handling stale gas any better than the other? Sounds like an odd question but there may be something to it. do not archive zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: > [img]cid:image001.gif@01C7E8A6.8D715B20[/img] > David , I tried to find the transport Canada letter explaining the Octane loss of Mogas. >From memory after > > a week 95 = 94 > two weeks 95= 92 > 3 weeks 95=90 > 4 weeks 95 = 87 > 5 weeks 95 = 84 > 3 mos ? use only to start fires > > And so on. Plastic containers lose octane a lot faster then steel kept in dark and cold. Short of it, is simple, after 2 weeks never add this gas to your plane, after 3 mos never use this gas in your lawnmower as mogas separates and creates varnish. IF your going to store your fuel for more then 3 mos for your car or lawnmower add fuel stabilizer. Then you are good for a year, give or take a month. Also be aware in northern climates and in Canada Especially we have 4 different blends of fuel depending on the season. EACH BLEND WILL AFFECT CARB ICING TIMES. > > In short , only buy your gas from a busy station. Never store for more then 3 mos without action. Never trust that the high grade of fuel you just bought at a gas station is new mix and fresh. > > > > > Mark Townsend > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. > president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com) (president@can-zacaviation.com (president@can-zacaviation.com)) > www.can-zacaviation.com (http://www.can-zacaviation.com) (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/ (http://www.can-zacaviation.com/)) > > > -- > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz (http://www.mykitlog.com/ashontz) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131328#131328 > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131340#131340 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:25 AM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knockin g") The compression test is a good idea. This car has not lived an easy life - probably 500+ miles a weekend several times a year on the track under racing (time trial) conditions at high boost. It is an amazing engine but every mechanical system has its limits. As for the fuel system and rebuilding the carbs I am in luck. This is a fuel injected car and the race computer is fully mappable. I have total control over spark timing as well as mixture all across the whole range of throttle position, boost/vacuum, ambient air temp/pressure and RPM. Then the computer will do real time fine adjustments for EGT and O2 as well as knocks. (The knock sensor in this system is purely a defensive device - it automatically enriches the air/fuel ratio and retards the timing by as much as 5 degrees when it detects knocking. Kind of takes the wind out of the sails but it saves the hard parts.) Which makes me wonder why fuel injection systems like this aren't more common on small piston planes. Wouldn't this setup also remove the possibility of carb icing? There isn't a venturi so there shouldn't be any rapid cooling in the intake path, ergo no ice. Or am I missing something? Dave Do not archive On 8/28/07, ashontz wrote: > > > Just to rule out any other major problems, I'd do a compression test on > all the cylinders. A month ago I had to change the head gasket in my old '85 > Nissan pickup. It was knocking like crazy. Turned out the head gasket broke > right between the #3 and #4 cylinders. No coolant leak (no white smoke out > the tailpipe), but the compressed intake from one cylinder was making it > into the adjacent cylinder during the powerstroke of the other cylinder > during the 1-3-4-2 firing order, making for a HARD knock. Seeing as how it's > an boosted engine, that's a lot of compression in there which is hard on the > engine and seals. > > If the compression is good, check the timing and make sure it's not too > far advanced. Depending on the year of the car, it may still have a vacuum > controlled spark advance. Setting the spark advance for the correct idle > speed could do a world of good. You'll have to move the spark advance, then > the idle screw, then the spark advance, then the idle screw etc... to get it > right because one affects the other. Once you have it close, then if it > still doesn't sound right per ear you can move the spark advance a degree or > two one way or the other to your liking, usually no more than a degree, and > usually it'll need to be retarded, not advanced. > > If it's carburated, it may be time to replace some parts in there too if > it's over ten years old or so which I'm guessing it is. Specifically, > replace the needle valve, set the float, and replace the accellerator pump. > A rebuild kit just to do those parts is only $30. > > The most I've ever heard out of that truck of mine when tuned and under > load with 87 octane was pinging. You shouldn't hear hard knocking. > > > do not archive > > > [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]You can probably bet the gas station is > selling low octane in the high octane pump. They know it takes some pretty > complex equiptment to test the true octane in gas and are gambling no one is > going to complain. Even if someone did, the testers sent out by the state to > comfirm the given octane rating are probably not going to get an accurate > number either because of various factors beyond their control. Good > luck.... > > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > -- "David Brooks" ?wrote: > I suppose this could be aviation related, especially for the 912ULS > owners, but my cause for posting is not. > > I have a supercharged Miata that I have to feed 91+ octane gas or it will > knock pretty severely when I put my foot in it, especially at high boost. I > normally run around 5-7 pounds of boost around town and have no problems > with knocking when I use 91. I run 13+ on the track and will only light up > the knock sensor light under pretty extreme loads or on really hot days when > the intercooler can't keep up. > > I have been buying 91 octane gas at a local station and lately I have been > getting lots of knocking at the low boost levels, and I am not driving very > hard. (I live in a town with 2500 people and three of them are full time > cops. Not much chance for spirited driving.) My best guess was that I was > starting to lose a valve seal or maybe I had some rings going bad and had > carbon building up on the piston heads and that was causing detonation. But > now I am not so sure. I filled up an almost empty tank out of town over the > weekend and I haven't seen the knock light blink even once. I am now > wondering about the gas at my local station. > > I did notice something interesting when looking at the pumps at my local > station last time I was there. The pump only has two Hobbs-meter like > counters at the top of the pump instead of three. I always thought those > were total counters, one for each underground tank but this station sells > three grades of gas. Could they be storing only two grades of gas and > mixing 85 and 91 to get the 87 grade? Or worse, could they be selling 87 > gas as 91? (I see one of the counters ticking away when I fill up with > 91. I will put 87 in the truck next time it needs gas and I will see if > both counters run at the same time.) > > A petro-chemist friend once tried to explain to me about gasoline molecule > chain length and detonation, "cracking" during the refining process, and who > knows what else. I am not a chemist (I don't even play one on TV) so I got > lost pretty quickly. What I did take away from the conversation was that > his opinion was that the lower grade octane gas (the shorter molecule > chains?) would pre-detonate under compression even if mixed with the high > octane gas causing the whole mix to go up. (It was also his strongly > expressed opinion that "octane boosters" were pretty useless as well.) I > want to make it clear that I am not sure I understand what is going on in > the cylinder when "knocking" occurs, so I am starting at a bit of a > disadvantage on this whole issue. > > So I guess my questions to this (incredibly) knowledgeable group are > these: > Does mixing different octane fuel "average" the effective octane of each > grade? How can a regular schmoe like me find out of they are selling 89 > octane gas as 91? I am pretty sure that asking isn't going to get me very > far. > Could there be additives in the gas that might encourage knocking?? Would > the 10% Ethanol gas cause more knocking than the undiluted fuel? What is > really going on when the engine "knocks"? (The sensor replaces one of the > engine mount bolts on the engine side. It looks like an epoxy filled hollow > bolt with a wire lead coming out the end.? That wire runs back to the after > market ECU. Is this sensor really just a microphone listening for > "knocks"? Can it be that simple?) > What (if anything) is the difference between "knock" and > "pre-detonation"? I hear both terms used and have always wondered if they > meant something different. > What do you 912ULS owners do when you can't find 91 octane gas?? Is there > an octane booster that you like? Do they even work at all? What are the > minimum octane requirements for the non-912ULS engine options like the > Jabiru 3300? (I am planning on building a 701 one of these fine > days. Honest.) > Please forgive the posting of a not totally aviation related question to > this board, but the depth of knowledge here is astounding and I figured this > was about as good a place to go for help as I was likely to find. Asking > technical questions on most of the auto lists usually gets responses like > "Buy a real car". Besides, if I put wings on this car I sometimes think it > would take to the air! Too bad it is too heavy to qualify as an E-LSA > plane. The power to weight ratio is about right... > > Thanks in advance, and feel free to contact me directly if you don't want > to clutter up the list with this topic. > > Dave > > Please do not archive > > > > > > > > =================================== > > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > =================================== > > tronics.com > > =================================== > > > > [b] > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131331#131331 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:43 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's! Congratulations! So, maybe you could call yourself the "Accidental Pilot." Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601BZ Fly's! From: "Gig Giacona" Congrats on the first flight. But this should be a reminder to all. When doing fast taxi testing, BE PREPARED TO FLY. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131346#131346 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") From: "Gig Giacona" Shiny, go fast parts in a Miata. How cute. :) dkbrooks(at)gmail.com wrote: > I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really needed to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing around with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression engines). > > I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What started me down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing all my worries go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to tear down my engine to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer have an excuse to tear down the engine and install some more new shiny go-fast parts. I suppose I will just have to admit the fact that I want to do it because I can and get on with it. > > Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list. > > Dave > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131349#131349 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: question about fuel related to aviation. From: "Gig Giacona" Yea, there is. WW just spent some time doing it and wasn't happy with the results. ashontz wrote: > > > I'm wondering if there's some way (I'm sure there is) to hook a fuel injector rail up to Corvair engine. I may try that when I get to that point. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131351#131351 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:52 AM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") Hey now... Actually, you would probably be surprised at just how fast these things will go. A couple of years ago I spent a beautiful weekend out at Reno Fernley Raceway terrorizing a bunch of Corvette owners. At 185 rwhp (not stock) and 2100 pounds (with a good track suspension setup and R-compound tires) this thing will fly past just about any street car in the corners. Sure, the long straight down the hill was like watching a Corvette freight train go by me, but I did have fun with them in the corners. And at 1/10 the price, the grin/dollar ratio is really spot on. All that and I can carry two (yes two!) whole bags of groceries in the trunk! ;) Dave Do not archive (as I suspect that future 601 builders probably won't be all that interested in building a race Miata - but you never know) On 8/28/07, Gig Giacona wrote: > > wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> > > Shiny, go fast parts in a Miata. How cute. :) > > > dkbrooks(at)gmail.com wrote: > > I never knew that the pumps blended the gas on demand. I never really > needed to use anything other than super cheap stuff before I started playing > around with turbos and superchargers (effectively high compression engines). > > > > I think you are right about this station's gas being 'bad'. What > started me down this path was filling up at a different station and seeing > all my worries go away. I suppose the good news is that I don't have to > tear down my engine to fix my problem. The bad news is that I no longer > have an excuse to tear down the engine and install some more new shiny > go-fast parts. I suppose I will just have to admit the fact that I want to > do it because I can and get on with it. > > > > Thanks for the info and suggestion. I love this list. > > > > Dave > > > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131349#131349 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:19 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's! Bill, Those darn CH designs just want to fly! Oh, Joy, Joy. Leo Gates N601Z do not archive. Bill Sewell wrote: > > Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. > > Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the > other builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my > wife for supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests." > > > > Bill Sewell > > N601BZ > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:23 AM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Non-aviation question about fuel (octane and "knocking") All - This list is fantastic. I have received so many responses with so much good information and pointers, both on-list and off, that it is going to take me a while to digest it all. I have tried to thank each person off-list but if I missed you then please accept my thanks here. I love this list. What an amazing group of knowledgeable and helpful folks. Dave Do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:24 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Hi Jay, I think you can use the Sharpie to mark your paint limits. You might need to wait a couple of days for the paint to harden before removing the Sharpie marks, but the paint should not be a problem once it is hardened. My understanding is that "Enamel" paints are not subject to solvent destruction after dry. Lacquer paints are indeed always limited in their resistance to solvent. I also believe all the paints you are likely to use on your plane will indeed be enamels. You might want to conduct some tests to determine how long to let the paint dry before attacking the marks with solvent. Indeed, I might be wrong about all this. Paul XL fuselage At 07:24 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote: > >Hey Gang, > >I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to >do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately >placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is >the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because >whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have >considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because >the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions? > >Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Unhappness is a dead battery From: "DaveG601XL" I do the same thing with my motorcycle in the winter. In my area, there are enough periods to ride during winter months that I do not winterize the bike. There are, though, enough cold snaps to keep you from riding for a month or so. I have the $40 Battery Tender brand that monitors the voltage and only trickle charges when needed. Has worked well for three winters now on the same battery. I hear that some t-hangers in my area do not have electrical power so I have been thinking about solar alternatives. But that can all wait. I need to finish the airplane first. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131388#131388 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:23 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery I use a different brand of battery minder in my ultralight. I hard wired a pigtail plug to the battery. The pigtail plug is sort of like a two wire version of a trailer light plug. I bought that at Radio Shack and it is installed such that the + terminal can't accidently reach ground and drain the battery. Everytime I put the plane up in the hangar, the last action is to plug in the battery minder and I never arrive to a dead battery. I too, have breaks in my flying access so it is a must for me. Dred ---- robert stone wrote: > Members, > This message is for those of you who experence long periods between flights in your aircraft. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:44 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601BZ Fly's! Bill Congratulations on a great building job and successful first flight. And thank you for the great website. Terry do not archive At 01:04 PM 8/27/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Today, August 27, 2007, at 8:56AM EDT N601BZ flew for the first time. ... > >Just want to thank Zenith Aircraft for a great design and all the other >builders that have helped me out. And of course to thank my wife for >supporting my hobby and for filming my "high speed taxi tests." > > >Bill Sewell > >N601BZ Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:43 AM PST US From: GLENN JOHNSON Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Painting Layout I HAVEN'T PAINTED YET, BUT I WILL TRY USING PAINTERS TAPE UNTIL I GET IT L IKE I WANT IT. IT FLEXES WELL AND SHOULDN'T PULL PAINT OFF. I USE THE BLU E FROM SCOTCH GLENN> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:24:53 -0400> From: Jaybannist@cs.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Zenith-List: Painting Layout> > --> Zen ith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com> > Hey Gang,> > I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to do some marking on th e aluminum to get the masking accurately placed. I know that a lead (graphi te)pencil is a no-no; but what is the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I h ave considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because the =======> > > _________________________________________________________________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:29 AM PST US From: Jean-Paul Roy Subject: RE : Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery Tracy, as the picture tell, this not a trickle charger but a float charger (two different beasts) The float charger will do the job whereas the trickle one will ruin your battery in about a year. Don't ask me how I know. Too bad Harbor Freight don't deliver in Canada. Jean-Paul 701 wings robert stone a crit : Members, This message is for those of you who experence long periods between flights in your aircraft. Since I am involved in so many other activities I am one of those who sometimes go for a month to six weeks before I fly my aircraft so I had a problem of the battery going dead or so weak that it would not turn the engine over. I tried to do a prop start one time and found out that with the Jabiru 3300 engine, this is impossible. Anyway I solved my problem with a small charger that stays connected to the battery all the time. I have enclosed a copy of the add from Harbor Freight catalog so you can see the price has been reduced. This trickle charger may be left on the battery all the time but there are some trickle chargers that must be watched because they are manual and will over charge and ruin the battery. My first attempt to send this out was returned by the system as being too large because I scanned the whole page in the Harbor Freight catalog, I then tried to use the URL and that would not work so this is the 4th try and I hope it goes this time. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 --------------------------------- Combattez les mchants pourriels... Le filtre SpamGuard vous aide lutter efficacement contre les pourriels sur le Tout-nouveau Yahoo! Courriel ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:50 AM PST US From: Jean-Paul Roy Subject: RE : Re: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Hello Jay. How about using a little piece of masking tape temporiraly applied until you have the proper tape in place. Hope this helps Jean-Paul Paul Mulwitz a crit : Hi Jay, I think you can use the Sharpie to mark your paint limits. You might need to wait a couple of days for the paint to harden before removing the Sharpie marks, but the paint should not be a problem once it is hardened. My understanding is that "Enamel" paints are not subject to solvent destruction after dry. Lacquer paints are indeed always limited in their resistance to solvent. I also believe all the paints you are likely to use on your plane will indeed be enamels. You might want to conduct some tests to determine how long to let the paint dry before attacking the marks with solvent. Indeed, I might be wrong about all this. Paul XL fuselage At 07:24 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote: > >Hey Gang, > >I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to >do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately >placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is >the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because >whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have >considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because >the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions? > >Jay in Dallas --------------------------------- Dcouvrez ce qui fait jaser les gens ! Visitez les groupes de l'heure sur Yahoo! Qubec Groupes. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:52 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery List, I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is mounted behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the side of the fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the wing. Wired the Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it plugged in all the time - except in-flight. (:-) Leo Gates N601Z ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:17 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long extension cord. However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for various appliances, there is another approach if you are parked outside. There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter plug on about ten feet of wire. These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge. Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the battery never sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2 inches, a few ounces, a few dollars. We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it works very well. You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle is always connected to the battery and not through the master.....or just install one for this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the instrument panel and soak up that free sunshine. do not archive regards, Zed/701/R912 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:22 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Don't use the blue or the purple painter's tape to do your actual masking on the plane. It will leak paint at places no matter how hard you try to stop it. That stuff only works reasonably for latex paints in my experience. Use that blue stuff to mark where the next color will be. Then position real masking tape next to the painter's tape using it as a guide. Once the masking tape is in place, the painter's tape is removed and the painting continues. That way you have the ease of placement and removal offered by the blue stuff to set the design then the superioir sealing of regular masking tape when you are painting. Dred ---- GLENN JOHNSON wrote: > > I HAVEN'T PAINTED YET, BUT I WILL TRY USING PAINTERS TAPE UNTIL I GET IT LIKE I WANT IT. IT FLEXES WELL AND SHOULDN'T PULL PAINT OFF. I USE THE BLUE FROM SCOTCH ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:51 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: RE : Re: Zenith-List: Painting Layout A fine tip dry erase marker might also work for layout. You then don't have to worry about using solvents to remove the marks after your masking is layed out. Do not Archive Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scatch builder NW Ontario, Canada --- Jean-Paul Roy wrote: > Hello Jay. How about using a little piece of masking > tape temporiraly applied until you have the proper > tape in place. > > Hope this helps > > Jean-Paul > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI probe From: Last year I saw a commercial version of the LRI probe at Oshkosh. As I remember the probe was streamlined from ~1" from the working end up to the mounting hole. If I remember correctly the "kit" with probe, gauge and tubing was $400 - $500. Craig S. N601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235 I have made the LRI probe from the data available on the ch601.org site. The profile is not very streamlined and I wonder just how much I can radius it to give a more areodynamic profile with out effecting the accuracy. I am assuming that the 45 degree corner is important but how about the rest of it? alex t. ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:14 PM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Burger and a chat Hey folks, Pete from Jabiru USA says he would be glad to host an event. Those interested in the Jabiru engine for the 601 or 701, let me know and I will try and get a date set. Do not archive -- Thanks, Rich Simmons -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) > Hey List, > > First a congrats to Bill and his first flight! > > I hope I have a turn in the near future!! > > In spring, I tried to get some of the middle TN builders together for a burger > and a chat. Just for acquaintance purposes as well as seeing what others are > doing. > > Someone asked if I would try again and I thought about since we are close to > Jabiru USA to see if we could get enough interest to A) just have the burger and > a chat or B) see if we can add a visit to the Jabiru house and let them display > their kits for the 601 and the 701 or any other products they wish to show case. > > Agian, this can be for central Tn area and/or for the 601 and 701 builders close > enough to drive. > > If interested, respond and let me know. > > I will then have a number to tell Jabiru USA on visitors. I know they did it for > EAA once! > > Rich > > Do not archive > > > > -- > Thanks, > Rich Simmons ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:20 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery Zed, Where can some of these solar panels be obtained? Are they available to the public? Tracy Stone Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery > > If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long extension > cord. > > However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for > various appliances, there is another approach if you are parked outside. > > There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter plug > on about ten feet of wire. > These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge. > > Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the > battery never sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2 > inches, a few ounces, a few dollars. > > We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it > works very well. > > You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle is > always connected to the battery and not through the master.....or just > install one for this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the > instrument panel and soak up that free sunshine. > > do not archive > > regards, > > Zed/701/R912 > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:29 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery Robert I have one I got from J. C. Whitney. www.jcwhitney.com From their aviation parts department, of course. Leo Gates Do not archive robert stone wrote: > > Zed, > Where can some of these solar panels be obtained? Are they > available to the public? > > Tracy Stone > > Do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:10 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More dead battery > > >> >> If the plane is parked out on the ramp it'll be a really long >> extension cord. >> >> However.....for those with cigar lighter-type outlets installed for >> various appliances, there is another approach if you are parked outside. >> >> There are small 12-volt solar panels available with a cigar lighter >> plug on about ten feet of wire. >> These supply about one-quarter amp at 12+ volts, don't over-charge. >> >> Next step up in this is to use a "solar panel regulator" so that the >> battery never sees over 13.6 volts. These are only about 2 x 2 x 2 >> inches, a few ounces, a few dollars. >> >> We use these on standby generators at remote radio tower sites and it >> works very well. >> >> You may need to change your wiring such that the lighter recepticle >> is always connected to the battery and not through the master.....or >> just install one for this purpose. Solar panel can just lay atop the >> instrument panel and soak up that free sunshine. >> >> do not archive >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:32 PM PST US From: Robert Schoenberger Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive. Leo Gates wrote: > > List, > > I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I > bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is > mounted behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the > side of the fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the > wing. Wired the Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it plugged > in all the time - except in-flight. (:-) > > Leo Gates > N601Z > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:27 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery A float charger, AKA battey minder, is a charger which remains connected to the battery for extended intervals. It monitors the charge status of the battery and only charges until the battery is "topped off" then goes back to monitior mode. It won't just keep charging indiscriminately until it cooks your battery to a premature death. Dred ---- Robert Schoenberger wrote: > > What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:31 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: solar-powered sunshine Robert, and all..... Just Google for "solar battery charger" and you'll get more hits than you'll need. I bought one several years ago to keep car battery up while parked several days at a time at airports. It was about the size of the fold-down sun visor on a car or pickup. Plug it into the lighter recept, lay the panel on the dash, ride the shuttle to check-in. Outdoor parking is cheaper than covered, and you can get a free wash job if it rains! Or free hail dings. Have had both. Folks who keep boats tied up at marinas, and only use the boat once or twice a year, find these to be good investments.....it is difficult to start a boat motor by pushing the boat. Likewise with motorhomes. I saw one installation atop a golf cart. Three 12-volt panels in series. One of my generator installations has a larger panel, probably two feet square. In bright sun it has nearly 18 volts open circuit. It can cause one to add a lot of water to the battery over the span of a year. The "regulator" I mentioned is a small plastic cube, potted so you can't see all the Radio Shack components. It has three wires: In, Out, and Ground. Easy! Regulators come in several sizes (current-handling capability) as do arrays of solar panels. The regulator prevents overcharging, prevents boiling all the water. You'll find the Internet abounds with all this good stuff. Good Googling, Zed do not archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:55 PM PST US From: Michael Hilderbrand Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI probe http://www.liftreserve.com/=0A=0AHere is the one I am buying. =0A =0AMichae l Hilderbrand=0ADerby, Kansas=0AHttp://www.kansasflying.com=0A=0A=0A=0A---- - Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Craig.Spainhower@exeloncorp.com" =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, A ugust 28, 2007 2:34:51 PM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI probe=0A=0A=0A--> Zenith-List message posted by: =0A=0ALast year I saw a commercial version of the LRI probe at Oshkosh. As I remember the probe was streamlined from ~1" from the working end up to the mounting hole. If I remember correctly the "kit" with probe, gauge and tubing was $ 400 - $500.=0A=0ACraig S.=0AN601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235=0A=0A=0AI have made the LRI probe from the data available on the ch601.org =0Asite. The profile is not very streamlined and I wonder just how much I =0Acan radius it to give a more areodynamic profile with out effecting the =0Aaccuracy. I am assu ming that the 45 degree corner is important but how =0Aabout the rest of it ?=0A =0A alex t.=0A=0A--------- --------------------------------=0A**************************************** **********=0AThis e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon=0ACo rporation proprietary information, which is privileged,=0Aconfidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon=0ACorporation family of Compan ies.=0AThis e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or=0Aen tity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended=0Arecipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any=0Adissemination, distribution , copying, or action taken in relation=0Ato the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly=0Aprohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail=0Ain error, please notify the sender immediately and p ermanently=0Adelete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printo ut.=0AThank You.=0A**************************************************=0A=0A = ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:19 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: float charger do not archive There are two types of float chargers. One is used to charge floats. The other is highly classified (only used aboard navel vessels). In the first case, any time a float doesn't it may be in need of charging. Use this type. In the latter case, if the ship sinks, it'll no longer be afloat. All seriousness aside, there are two terms commonly applied to the maintenance of banks of cells as might be used in microwave sites, telephone central offices, etc. The bank of cells connected together makes up the "station battery". This is a nominal 48 volts in U.S. phone installations; Float may be set to 56 volts. This "equalizes" the cells. The charger usually has two settings.....the Float setting at nominal station voltage to supply the DC used by the attached equipment, and, the Equalize setting at some higher voltage. The Equalize kicks in once a month or at some other predetermined time, and slightly "overcharges" the bank for some period.....maybe 24 hours. Thus the terms "float" and "equalize". Nothing much to worry about when building airplanes with one battery containing six cells. The prop, on the other hand, does have a prime function: Keep the pilot cool. This is proved by watching him sweat if the prop quits. Regards, Zed ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Burger and a chat From: "Wingrider" I'm interested if I'm not traveling also. Couldn't make the last one hopefully I can this time. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131478#131478 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:46 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets Just to mention a maintenance issue I recently found. This was on a 601 HDS with 450 engine hours (vs. fewer flight hours). The ramps on which the nose gear steering rod rests, appear to attach to the U-channel that runs up the firewall, with a bolt and (I think) an A5 rivet on each side. On both sides, the A5 was found at an annual inspection to be sheared off. The ca. 1995 kit was from an era when everything was steel on steel, with no nylon in the gear slide assemblies. However, this aircraft was built with a nylon block below the strap that is bolted under the fuselage, which holds the nose gear tube. A couple of bolts connecting the strap to the fuselage appear slightly loose, something I'm now looking into. They're in the first row aft of the firewall, as if the strap were getting bent up and down, more likely once those rivets sheared. (Even in the small version of the photo attached, one bolt head appears to not be flush with the strap.) It might be possible to replace the rivets with bolts, but there is limited space on the inside of the U-channel because of other bolts coming up vertically in that area. Clearly there's some stress on the area. The aircraft flies mainly off pavement but from time to time uses a grass runway, and we know how stiff the bungee gear system is. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:02 PM PST US From: "Don_Lewis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery See this http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm I think VDC makes the best... I have 4 of them... You can catch them on sale for $ 40- $50... Worth every penny.... Don n FTW ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Schoenberger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unhappness is a dead battery What is a float charger? Robert Schoenberger do not archive. Leo Gates wrote: > > List, > > I use the same float charger as Robert Stone. Three years now. I > bought a 1/4" Phone Jack and Plug from Rat Shack. My battery is > mounted behind the passenger seat so I mounted the Phone Jack on the > side of the fuselage about 6 inches above the trailing edge of the > wing. Wired the Phone Plug to the float charger. I leave it plugged > in all the time - except in-flight. (:-) > > Leo Gates > N601Z > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:04 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Zenith-List: No slats After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the previous owner. I have to admit they are not workmanship up to my standards but they are ok and as good as most. They are now for sale with brackets, real cheap. Pick up only. E-mail me with an offer I can't refuse. I'm talking about, like almost take them off my hands. Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:01 PM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range. How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on? Don Mountain --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:13 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats OH, NO not you too Larry!!!!!!! Sorry I couldn't resist, just kidding. Bob Spudis do not archive After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the previous owner. Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Painting Layout From: "Ron Lendon" I have seen this done. Find 1/8" wide masking tape for doing the complex shapes. OR use 3/4" tape over the joint, mark the tape, cut with an exatco knife and lift the side you don't want. Just some thoughts, -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131499#131499 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.