---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/29/07: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:24 AM - Re: Painting Layout (Gordon) 2. 04:18 AM - Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (george may) 3. 04:30 AM - Re: No slats (Jerry Hey) 4. 05:09 AM - Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (robert stone) 5. 05:50 AM - Re: Painting Layout (Jaybannist@cs.com) 6. 06:00 AM - Mount Bolts (Kevin L. Rupert) 7. 06:04 AM - Re: No slats (LRM) 8. 06:07 AM - Looking for a canopy cover (alex_01) 9. 06:19 AM - Re: Looking for a canopy cover (Phil Maxson) 10. 06:33 AM - Re: Burger and a chat "Clyde" (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 11. 06:50 AM - Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts () 12. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Painting Layout () 13. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Burger and a chat "Clyde" (Clyde Barcus) 14. 07:14 AM - Re: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (LarryMcFarland) 15. 07:14 AM - Re: Mount Bolts (Bryan Martin) 16. 07:26 AM - Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (LarryMcFarland) 17. 07:56 AM - Re: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (Peter Chapman) 18. 07:59 AM - Re: Unhappness is a dead battery (Gig Giacona) 19. 08:09 AM - Re: Mount Bolts (Kevin L. Rupert) 20. 08:35 AM - Re: No slats (n85ae) 21. 08:40 AM - Re: Mount Bolts (Randy L. Thwing) 22. 09:02 AM - Re: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 23. 09:25 AM - Re:Looking for a canopy cover (MaxNr@aol.com) 24. 09:33 AM - Re: Mount Bolts (Bryan Martin) 25. 09:34 AM - Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts (T. Graziano) 26. 10:13 AM - Re: No slats (Jerry Hey) 27. 10:45 AM - WICKS 10% OFF (GLJSOJ1) 28. 11:01 AM - Re: Mount Bolts (Kevin L. Rupert) 29. 12:02 PM - Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Malcolm Hunt) 30. 12:19 PM - Re:Looking for a canopy cover (MaxNr@aol.com) 31. 12:47 PM - Re: Mount Bolts (Randy L. Thwing) 32. 12:57 PM - tuft test video - 601 HDS (Peter Chapman) 33. 01:11 PM - Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Jaybannist@cs.com) 34. 01:23 PM - Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (Gig Giacona) 35. 01:45 PM - Re: Painting Layout (AZFlyer) 36. 02:11 PM - Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Malcolm Hunt) 37. 02:12 PM - Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (George Swinford) 38. 02:43 PM - Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (Gig Giacona) 39. 03:05 PM - Re: No slats (Graeme) 40. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (Peter Chapman) 41. 04:23 PM - Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (dfmoeller) 42. 04:48 PM - Re: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets (Jim Hoak) 43. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (George Swinford) 44. 05:50 PM - Canopy Side Frame (Herb Heaton) 45. 05:51 PM - Elastic stop nuts in engine compartment (Randy L. Thwing) 46. 07:02 PM - Re: Canopy Side Frame (Jaybannist@cs.com) 47. 07:03 PM - Re: Canopy Side Frame (wade jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:55 AM PST US From: "Gordon" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Use 3M fineline Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: GLENN JOHNSON To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Painting Layout I HAVEN'T PAINTED YET, BUT I WILL TRY USING PAINTERS TAPE UNTIL I GET IT LIKE I WANT IT. IT FLEXES WELL AND SHOULDN'T PULL PAINT OFF. I USE THE BLUE FROM SCOTCH GLENN > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:24:53 -0400 > From: Jaybannist@cs.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Painting Layout > > > Hey Gang, > > I am about to start some outside painting on my XL. I will need to do some marking on the aluminum to get the masking accurately placed. I know that a lead (graphite)pencil is a no-no; but what is the preferred tool? I am hesitant to use a Sharpie, because whatever is used to remove it may also remove paint. I have considered a PaperMate Flare or Pentel felt tip pin, mainly because the ink is water soluble. Any suggestions? > > Jay in Dallas> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- New home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:37 AM PST US From: "george may" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts Don I had the same concerns when Ifirst saw the design, however, I decided to go with the specified nuts. Also checked the factory plane and that is what they used. I have 145 hours on my 601 and nothing has loosened up. The areas where these nuts are used does not see much heat George May 601XL 912s 145hrs >From: Don Mountain >To: Zenith >Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:38:57 -0700 (PDT) > >I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my >601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the >engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the >plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding >up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they >working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree >environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat >in that range. > >How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High >Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been >pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting >bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through >them to lock them on? > > >Don Mountain > > >--------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:21 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Hi Larry, I must have missed something in the VG/slat discussion. Why are you increasing the wing span? Most reports I am aware of, the standard wing was used. Jerry On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:22 PM, LRM wrote: > After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 > without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already > built by the previous owner. I have to admit they are not > workmanship up to my standards but they are ok and as good as > most. They are now for sale with brackets, real cheap. Pick up > only. E-mail me with an offer I can't refuse. I'm talking about, > like almost take them off my hands. > Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:57 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts Don, Why not just buy the required amount of all steel hot section lock nuts from Aircraft Spruce and use them. The cold section plastic nuts may do just as well but with all steel, you would have peace of mind. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Mountain To: Zenith Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:38 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range. How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on? Don Mountain ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:28 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting Layout Gordon, Thanks for the suggestion. Still don't have an engine. - Jay "Gordon" wrote: >Use 3M fineline >Gordon ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:18 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts Don, Firewall forward gets friction locks, firewall aft gets fiber locks, But don't take my word for it. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth. Kevin R. XL/C ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:06 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Check out the longer wing page. http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php?id=48, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Hey To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; LRM Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Hi Larry, I must have missed something in the VG/slat discussion. Why are you increasing the wing span? Most reports I am aware of, the standard wing was used. Jerry On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:22 PM, LRM wrote: After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the previous owner. I have to admit they are not workmanship up to my standards but they are ok and as good as most. They are now for sale with brackets, real cheap. Pick up only. E-mail me with an offer I can't refuse. I'm talking about, like almost take them off my hands. Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L - The Zenith-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Looking for a canopy cover From: "alex_01" looking for a canopy cover when plane 601xl is parked outside during stops on my trips. should be light and easy to install and hopefully not too expensive thank you Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131534#131534 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:54 AM PST US From: Phil Maxson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Looking for a canopy cover I got mine from Bruce's Custom Covers : http://aircraftcovers.com/ My plan e is outside all the time and the cover has held up nicely to two summers a nd one winter. It still looks brand new. I have a friend, Jim Norton on t his list, who made me wing covers too, and those have yet to be tested over the winter. There was also a person who designed their own from a table cloth. Informa tion in the archives.Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey g for a canopy cover when plane 601xl is parked outside during stops on my trips.> should be light and easy to install and hopefully not too expensive > thank you _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:21 AM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Burger and a chat "Clyde" Clyde, I am attathing the front Fuselage sides and horizonatl "L's". The front lower seat support is next. Softball is apon me again but I am still trying to get several hours a week on it. Leveling the front upper longerons was a chore bu I finally came up with something where all the numbers started adding up. Simple yet tedious. Give ma a yell or coma and take a look. Do not archive -- Thanks, Rich Simmons
Clyde,
 
I am attathing the front Fuselage sides and horizonatl "L's".
 
The front lower seat support is next.
 
Softball is apon me again but I am still trying to get several hours a week on it.
 
Leveling the front upper longerons was a chore bu I finally came up with something where all the numbers started adding up. Simple yet tedious.
 
Give ma a yell or coma and take a look.
 
Do not archive
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:59 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts The first bit of useful info would be the the lack of any discussion following the actual observation of a problem. So, it probably hasn't been an issue on any of the flying 601XLs so far. Second, given the cylinder head temps and the necessity for the ambient under cowl temperature to be significantly less, the air temp under the cowl should not be higher than 250 F. If it does get to that temperature very often or for very long periods, we'll probably have trouble with the fiberglass long before the bolts get loose. If it feels more secure to you the AN 363-624 high heat, all metal style of locknut would not be an expensive add-on. Reversing the bolt head to the forward side and the nut to the cockpit side is another option but likely to be pointless due to the thermal conduction of the bolt itself. Dred ---- Don Mountain wrote: > I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range. > > How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on? > > > Don Mountain > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:14 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Painting Layout Are you sure that you want to cut through the tape with an exacto knife and amost certainly score the aluminum skin underneath it? That sounds dangerous to me. Did I miss something there? Dred ---- Ron Lendon wrote: > > I have seen this done. Find 1/8" wide masking tape for doing the complex shapes. > > OR use 3/4" tape over the joint, mark the tape, cut with an exatco knife and lift the side you don't want. > > Just some thoughts, > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI > Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131499#131499 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:35 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Burger and a chat "Clyde" Hi Rich, I am very much interested in your experience in leveling the front Longerons, I just finished the firewall I had to replace because of the crack and will be starting on the upper longerons soon. I am leaving for Scotland Saturday and will be gone for a week, sometime after I get back I would like to visit you when it fits your schedule, I would greatly appreciate your input based on your experience, I think it would be a big help. Clyde Barcus 601 XL, Continental Powered Wings, Tail & Engine Complete Working on Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:32 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Burger and a chat "Clyde" Clyde, I am attathing the front Fuselage sides and horizonatl "L's". The front lower seat support is next. Softball is apon me again but I am still trying to get several hours a week on it. Leveling the front upper longerons was a chore bu I finally came up with something where all the numbers started adding up. Simple yet tedious. Give ma a yell or coma and take a look. Do not archive -- Thanks, Rich Simmons ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:29 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets Hi Peter, The segment shown with the rivet head broken off should have had a bolt. That's what the latest revision of the plans require. It is crowded with the other bolt heads sticking up, but it can be done. I'm surprised to see that a rivet held up so long in that area. See link, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/stratstops.gif Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Peter Chapman wrote: > > Just to mention a maintenance issue I recently found. > > This was on a 601 HDS with 450 engine hours (vs. fewer flight hours). > > The ramps on which the nose gear steering rod rests, appear to attach > to the U-channel that runs up the firewall, with a bolt and (I think) > an A5 rivet on each side. > > On both sides, the A5 was found at an annual inspection to be sheared > off. > > The ca. 1995 kit was from an era when everything was steel on steel, > with no nylon in the gear slide assemblies. However, this aircraft was > built with a nylon block below the strap that is bolted under the > fuselage, which holds the nose gear tube. A couple of bolts connecting > the strap to the fuselage appear slightly loose, something I'm now > looking into. They're in the first row aft of the firewall, as if the > strap were getting bent up and down, more likely once those rivets > sheared. (Even in the small version of the photo attached, one bolt > head appears to not be flush with the strap.) > > It might be possible to replace the rivets with bolts, but there is > limited space on the inside of the U-channel because of other bolts > coming up vertically in that area. > > Clearly there's some stress on the area. The aircraft flies mainly off > pavement but from time to time uses a grass runway, and we know how > stiff the bungee gear system is. > > > Peter Chapman > Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:29 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts The question is, do these nuts in the location where they are installed ever exceed 250=B0F. These nuts are installed at the remote corners of the firewall in direct contact with the metal airframe. In order for the temperature of these nuts to exceed 250=B0F, the entire firewall, engine mount and airframe sections in direct contact with these nuts would have to exceed 250=B0F. I don't believe that is the case. I've never burned myself by touching the firewall or anything directly attached to it immediately after a fight and the plastic overflow tank mounted on the firewall has never shown any signs of heat damage. There's just too much metal wicking away the heat for it to build up to that high a temperature. As long as the nuts themselves do not exceed the temperature limit, there should be no problem in using them. There is no statement in the text you quoted that forbids using nylon locking nuts forward of the firewall. That being said, I would certainly not use them on the engine itself. On Aug 29, 2007, at 8:59 AM, Kevin L. Rupert wrote: > Don, > Firewall forward gets friction locks, firewall aft gets fiber > locks, But don't take my word for it. Here it is straight from the > horse's mouth. > > Kevin R. > > XL/C > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:10 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts Don, It's rather unlikely you'll see 225 degrees at the firewall mount bolts unless you route your exhaust very near them. I used regular castle nuts and drilled the bolts, but that leaves you with the necessity of playing with washers to get the cotter hole to align at the torque you want. I'd not recommend the pinched type castle nut because it will damage the bolts in repeated removal and replacement. If you have doubts with the low temp nuts, go with the standard castle type. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Don Mountain wrote: > I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on > my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts > for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature > type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how > they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any > trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed > to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back > of the engine won't produce heat in that range. > > How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High > Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been > pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the > mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter > pins through them to lock them on? > > > Don Mountain > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:53 AM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets At 10:13 29-08-07, you wrote: >The segment shown with the rivet head broken off should have had a >bolt. That's what the latest revision >of the plans require. Sounds good to me! Thanks. (There are a surprising number of plans drawings online these days, as well as lists of revisions changes, but one doesn't always know everything that's been upgraded over the years.) Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Unhappness is a dead battery From: "Gig Giacona" Did you notice this at the end of the page? Not for use with Aviation Specific batteries. See models 12248-AA and 24041-AA aviation specific charger-maintainer-desulphator-conditioners. [quote="don_lewis(at)swbell.net"]See this http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm (http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm) I think VDC makes the best... I have 4 of them... You can catch them on sale for $ 40- $50... Worth every penny.... Don n FTW quote] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131569#131569 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:32 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts Bryan, I agree that the nuts will never see the 250 degrees, but I work on planes for a living and in our shop, friction lock go in the engine compartment. I don't like questions from the FAA inspector, when he comes around. Kevin R. XL/C ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: No slats From: "n85ae" I've been working on my Ch801 for some time now, and I decided to convert it to a low wing, because I like bubble canopies. I chose also to remove the slats because I wanted more speed. I then converted it to a laminar flow airfoil. After that I decided in order to reduce drag a composite wing was just the ticket. Decided the fueslage was kind of boxy so I reshaped it, and converted it to a sexy composite based shape. Oh, then of course to further reduce drag I converted the gear to retractable. But darnit all, if I had only known that pulling the slats was considered by the FAA to be a Major change, and I violated my airworthiness cert by NOT getting it reinspected ... I wouldn't have gotten busted! I guess I should have just bought a Lancair to begin with ... Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131576#131576 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:54 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts We are just finishing a major overhaul of a O-200Aand the manual specifies fibre lock nuts for installing accessories such as starter & generator directly on the engine accessory case. How do you reconcile the fact that Continental specifies them? Regards, Randy, Las Vegas do not archive Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts > > Bryan, > I agree that the nuts will never see the 250 degrees, but I work on > planes for a living and in our shop, friction lock go in the engine > compartment. I don't like questions from the FAA inspector, when he > comes around. > > Kevin R. > > XL/C ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:21 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets When was the drawing 6-F-10 rev. Mine is dated 09-03 and has only one bolt on each side at this location. These bolts secure the (one for each 6-F-10-1) Nose Gear Stops to the 6-F-9-4 Center Firewall Stiffener. How important is adding the second bolt? If the second bolt is required then I will have to replace the Center Firewall Stiffener or just add the new bolts with less then desired spacing. Jerry of GA http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:12 AM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Looking for a canopy cover I also recall the Wal Mart Vinyl Table Cloth suggestion. Does require some cutting and stitching. The inner nap is soft enough for antique cherry wood tables. The outer surface will ward off small meteorites. Another alternative is the lady in California that makes one that attaches with Velcro. Click here: Lori's Zodiac Accessories Do not archive Bob ************************************** at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:49 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts I specifically asked my DAR about these nuts and he said if the designer specified those nuts at that location, he was OK with it. Of course, with an E-AB, we're not bound by factory-built rules. I do generally follow standard aircraft practices in most cases though. On Aug 29, 2007, at 11:09 AM, Kevin L. Rupert wrote: > > Bryan, > I agree that the nuts will never see the 250 degrees, but I work on > planes for a living and in our shop, friction lock go in the engine > compartment. I don't like questions from the FAA inspector, when he > comes around. > > Kevin R. > > XL/C > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:58 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts I did not use the nylock nuts in the XL kit but instead used the hi-temp nuts supplied in the FWF kit from Jabiru USA. I torque-striped the nuts. After checking the torque at 50 hrs, I have an annual requirement to check the torque on the nuts. I used 300 inch-lbs. I also check the torque whenever I remove the fwd top skin, which I installed to be removable. As this area is probably subjected to cyclic loading, I would not recommend using castle nuts with cotter pins. I remember seeing pictures of a failure of one of the mount bolts a few years ago There was what appeared to be a lot of fretting corrosion in the area leading me to suspect loss of torque contributed to the failure. Fair winds, VMC and CAVU to all Tony Graziano XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 280 hrs. -------------- Firewall Engine Mounting Nuts From: Don Mountain (mountain4don@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Aug 28 - 7:41 PM I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range. How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on? Don Mountain From: Don Mountain (mountain4don@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Aug 28 - 7:41 PM I am working on the firewall and engine mounts through the firewall on my 601 XL, and found the plans call for AN 365-624 Self Locking nuts for the engine mounts on the firewall. These are the low temperature type with the plastic self-locking ring in them. I was wondering how they were holding up on the finished planes and if there was any trouble with them. Are they working loose at all? These are supposed to be limited to a 250 degree environment. And I am not sure the back of the engine won't produce heat in that range. How many have switched these firewall engine mounting nuts to the High Temperature type AN 363-624 that look like castle nuts that have been pinched for the self locking feature? Or are people drilling the mounting bolts through the firewall and putting castle nuts and cotter pins through them to lock them on? Don Mountain ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:18 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Thanks for that reference. I had been on the site several times but messed that page somehow. JG's reasoning based on real world experience is compelling. I too am leaning toward eliminating the slats and installing VGs and maybe a longer wing too to complete the package. I wish that someone in addition to JG had already done the mods and could confirm the performance figures he is claiming. I was going to start with the wings next week but will hold off a bit. Jerry On Aug 29, 2007, at 8:59 AM, LRM wrote: > Check out the longer wing page. http://www.stolspeed.com/ > content.php?id=48, Larry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Hey > To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; LRM > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:27 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats > > Hi Larry, I must have missed something in the VG/slat discussion. > Why are you increasing the wing span? Most reports I am aware of, > the standard wing was used. Jerry > > > On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:22 PM, LRM wrote: > >> After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 >> without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are >> already built by the previous owner. I have to admit they are not >> workmanship up to my standards but they are ok and as good as >> most. They are now for sale with brackets, real cheap. Pick up >> only. E-mail me with an offer I can't refuse. I'm talking about, >> like almost take them off my hands. >> Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L >> >> - The Zenith-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted- >> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith- >> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple- >> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com >> > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: WICKS 10% OFF From: "GLJSOJ1" JUST GOT THIS FROM WICKS A/C September Is Customer Appreciation Month 10% OFF From: info@wicksaircraft.com Sent: Tue 8/28/07 3:37 PM Security scan upon download ATT00001 (1.5 KB) http://www.wicksaircraft.com/customer_ml/view.php?mi=41481&nl=9 Type your text after the link above. -------- 601XL BUILDER ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131596#131596 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:39 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts Randy, I'd say you have an aftermarket maintenance manual. All my TCM manuals show either friction lock, running nut with star lock washer, running nut with palnut, or castle nut with cotter pin. I have installed a lot of starters and generators on Continentals in my time and I have never used a fiber lock on any of them. Maybe your FSDO will buy fiber locks in the engine compartment, Mine won't, and as I said before I don't argue with the FAA. They always win. Kevin R. XL/C ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:52 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Hunt" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea Hi Jay Where did you get the information on the 32mm dia hole from? I have looked up the revisions to the drawings and cannot see it. Has anyone on the list made the spar cap angles (6W3-6&7) in two pieces to bend them on a 8' brake? I have e-mailed Zenair technical people asking their veiws without a reply. I wonder if they are still considering the implication for the load test of the wing as noted in this months newsletter? Best regards Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans Builder in England ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea > > Andy, > > Your reinforcing looks reasonable. Just don't forget that, on the inboard > part of this reinforced area, the flap hinge will go between the bottom > skin and the bottom flange of the rear spar. And that hinge won't be > riveted until much later. > > On my particular airplane, the drawings called for a 38mm hole, 20mm from > the bottom of the bottom flange. That leaves less than 1mm between the > hole and the flange. The hole was later changed to a 32mm dia., leaving > about a 4mm clearance; which I suspect is what you have. I might measure > the clearance between the flange and the control rod end to see if I can > partially cover the hole with the reinforcing angle. > > Instead of trimming the vertical leg fo the doubler angle, I think I would > only notch it (at the hole) and put some A4 rivets into the web of the > spar to help resist buckling of the doubler angle. > > Just my 2 cents worth. > > Jay > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:38 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Looking for a canopy cover This is the REAL link to LORI'S ZODIAC ACCESSORIES: http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_052.htm Drat! Stupid me for thinking the link would be link-able. Do not archive Bob ************************************** AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:53 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts Kevin: I'm at work now so I don't have the reference in front of me, but I will double-check. It is not a maintenance manual, it is the Continental overhaul manual. More to come...... Randy, Las Vegas do not archive Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mount Bolts > > Randy, > I'd say you have an aftermarket maintenance manual. All my TCM manuals > show either friction lock, running nut with star lock washer, running > nut with palnut, or castle nut with cotter pin. I have installed a lot > of starters and generators on Continentals in my time and I have never > used a fiber lock on any of them. Maybe your FSDO will buy fiber locks > in the engine compartment, Mine won't, and as I said before I don't > argue with the FAA. They always win. > > Kevin R. > > XL/C ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:12 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Zenith-List: tuft test video - 601 HDS I finally got around to doing a little video of some tuft testing on the 601 HDS I fly, filmed with a 0.3 wide angle lens on the camcorder. It is posted online at http://pcxstuff.blip.tv/file/356716/ and can also be downloaded as a 13MB .wmv file. It's not a particularly clear video. It was an unprofessional test, a flight with no detailed plan, on a dark, turbulent day, quickly done before the weather got any worse. But I haven't seen anything better, so this will have to do until I get around to trying again. In its nearly 2 minutes, the video basically shows slow flight, throttled back, with a few approaches down to incipient stalls. Audio was removed (including a lot of oil canning noise near the stall!), but some indicated speeds called out by the pilot are shown in text on screen. Speeds are typically low, eg 70 mph indicated before slowing down, then down to 50 or 40 indicated (naturally likely inaccurate) for the slow flight. The pitch angle against the horizon is an indication of the speed. At about 37 and 49 seconds seconds there are clear stall recoveries, after a lot of wing rock. I don't know if there was an actual stall break or the pilot simply let the stick forward once the bucking was getting enough. I haven't thought through it all yet myself, but a few observations are possible: -- One can clearly see the region of separated airflow spread outboard and forward as the wing gets closer to a stall. -- Even when in slow flight not right at a stall, a large area near the wing root doesn't have straight fore to aft flow. I'm not current on my aerodynamics, but a waving yarn might only indicate an area of a turbulence within a thick boundary lager, and not fully separated flow. One can't see the actual wing/fuselage junction, but even outboard of that, the flow isn't all front to back. -- It doesn't take much to mess up airflow right down on the wing surface, if closer to the leading edge. There's a yarn just behind of the aft, inboard Dzus fastener on the wing locker. Even when the plane dives with speed when recovering from a stall, that yarn doesn't like to stay straight. On the other hand, the yarn behind the top of the main wheel strut, also behind an obstacle, does stay straight. A quick guess is that the slight upwards bulge of the wing locker near the front of the locker is what's actually causing a flow problem, not the Dzus fastener. The slight bulge is far enough forward on the airfoil that the shape becomes critical, unlike for the gear strut which is further back. The yarn that is forward of the "behind the Dzus" one, is right on the locker, and it shows a tendency to lift off the surface rather than stay flat on the wing. -- There is substantial inwards flow near the trailing edge of the wing. Some is expected near the tip as the tip vortex rotates up and inwards. But at low speed there's some inwards flow component along the aileron pretty much all the way inboard. Some inwards flow can be expected from a sharply forward swept trailing edge wing, but the amount is much more than I expected. -- Right when the plane is about to stall, it is impressive how many of those little yarns are trying to go the wrong way, to jump the aerodynamically sinking ship! Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:09 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea Malcolm, There is a section of the Zenith web site for builders. You must log in with a user name and password (which are available from Zenith) In that section there is an option to choose Zodiac XL and then select "For the lateset Drawings updates". This change can be found under "updates 2006" in the 3rd edition 3rd revision. I didn't locate this information until I had already drilled the 38mm hole. >From their we site, I surmise that they have already done the re-testing, but just have not compiled and published the results. Jay in Dallas "Malcolm Hunt" wrote: > >Hi Jay > >Where did you get the information on the 32mm dia hole from? I have looked >up the revisions to the drawings and cannot see it. > >Has anyone on the list made the spar cap angles (6W3-6&7) in two pieces to >bend them on a 8' brake? I have e-mailed Zenair technical people asking >their veiws without a reply. I wonder if they are still considering the >implication for the load test of the wing as noted in this months >newsletter? > >Best regards > >Malcolm Hunt >CH601XL Plans Builder in England ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS From: "Gig Giacona" Great video. I to looks like the air is really confused just aft of the inboard corner of the wing locker. I wonder if this is caused by the locker? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131635#131635 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Painting Layout From: "AZFlyer" Jay, >From my RC building/flying days we always used thin "trim" tape (1/16, 1/8, 1/4") to make the painting edge, then regular masking tape over that for cover paper, blue 3M works for that. Electrical (plastic) tape also works, if the curves are not too tight. Use "Fine point dry erase markers" to mark your dimensions...marks come off easy. Wouldn't use the Xacto knife procedure... very hard to control the depth of cut. Mike -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131640#131640 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:46 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Hunt" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea Thank Jay will have a look Do not archive Malcolm ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea > > Malcolm, > > There is a section of the Zenith web site for builders. You must log in > with a user name and password (which are available from Zenith) In that > section there is an option to choose Zodiac XL and then select "For the > lateset Drawings updates". This change can be found under "updates 2006" > in the 3rd edition 3rd revision. I didn't locate this information until I > had already drilled the 38mm hole. > >>From their we site, I surmise that they have already done the re-testing, >>but just have not compiled and published the results. > > Jay in Dallas > > > "Malcolm Hunt" wrote: > >> >> >>Hi Jay >> >>Where did you get the information on the 32mm dia hole from? I have >>looked >>up the revisions to the drawings and cannot see it. >> >>Has anyone on the list made the spar cap angles (6W3-6&7) in two pieces to >>bend them on a 8' brake? I have e-mailed Zenair technical people asking >>their veiws without a reply. I wonder if they are still considering the >>implication for the load test of the wing as noted in this months >>newsletter? >> >>Best regards >> >>Malcolm Hunt >>CH601XL Plans Builder in England > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:06 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tuft test video - 601 HDS Thanks for posting the video. The wing locker is obviously disturbing the flow. It would be interesting to locate an array of VGs at about 5% of the local chord in front of the locker area. I'd bet on an improvement. Also I notice that the tufts near the tip stay pretty well aligned as the angle of attack approaches the stall point. Credit to Chris for that. How about tufting the canopy aft of the high point and along the top skin behind the canopy. I'll bet there is considerable separation there, even at cruising speed. I expect that Zodiacs pay a price for that great visibility. As for the area near the wing root, I wonder if a suitable fillet wouldn't improve that. George Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Chapman" Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Zenith-List: tuft test video - 601 HDS > > > I finally got around to doing a little video of some tuft testing on > the 601 HDS I fly, filmed with a 0.3 wide angle lens on the camcorder. > > It is posted online at http://pcxstuff.blip.tv/file/356716/ and can > also be downloaded as a 13MB .wmv file. It's not a particularly clear video. > > It was an unprofessional test, a flight with no detailed plan, on a > dark, turbulent day, quickly done before the weather got any worse. > But I haven't seen anything better, so this will have to do until I > get around to trying again. > > In its nearly 2 minutes, the video basically shows slow flight, > throttled back, with a few approaches down to incipient stalls. Audio > was removed (including a lot of oil canning noise near the stall!), > but some indicated speeds called out by the pilot are shown in text > on screen. Speeds are typically low, eg 70 mph indicated before > slowing down, then down to 50 or 40 indicated (naturally likely > inaccurate) for the slow flight. The pitch angle against the horizon > is an indication of the speed. > > At about 37 and 49 seconds seconds there are clear stall recoveries, > after a lot of wing rock. I don't know if there was an actual stall > break or the pilot simply let the stick forward once the bucking was > getting enough. > > > I haven't thought through it all yet myself, but a few observations > are possible: > > -- One can clearly see the region of separated airflow spread > outboard and forward as the wing gets closer to a stall. > > -- Even when in slow flight not right at a stall, a large area near > the wing root doesn't have straight fore to aft flow. I'm not current > on my aerodynamics, but a waving yarn might only indicate an area of > a turbulence within a thick boundary lager, and not fully separated > flow. One can't see the actual wing/fuselage junction, but even > outboard of that, the flow isn't all front to back. > > -- It doesn't take much to mess up airflow right down on the wing > surface, if closer to the leading edge. > There's a yarn just behind of the aft, inboard Dzus fastener on the > wing locker. Even when the plane dives with speed when recovering > from a stall, that yarn doesn't like to stay straight. On the other > hand, the yarn behind the top of the main wheel strut, also behind an > obstacle, does stay straight. A quick guess is that the slight > upwards bulge of the wing locker near the front of the locker is > what's actually causing a flow problem, not the Dzus fastener. The > slight bulge is far enough forward on the airfoil that the shape > becomes critical, unlike for the gear strut which is further back. > The yarn that is forward of the "behind the Dzus" one, is right on > the locker, and it shows a tendency to lift off the surface rather > than stay flat on the wing. > > -- There is substantial inwards flow near the trailing edge of the > wing. Some is expected near the tip as the tip vortex rotates up and > inwards. But at low speed there's some inwards flow component along > the aileron pretty much all the way inboard. Some inwards flow can be > expected from a sharply forward swept trailing edge wing, but the > amount is much more than I expected. > > -- Right when the plane is about to stall, it is impressive how many > of those little yarns are trying to go the wrong way, to jump the > aerodynamically sinking ship! > > > Peter Chapman > Toronto, ON > > > -- 4:29 PM > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS From: "Gig Giacona" Since you are doing tuft testing how about doing the side of they fuselage and find a good location for a static port. :D -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131653#131653 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:06 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats There is a savana in Nth Qld with the VGs and VG wing mod with 80HP Rotax and From what I have heard the cruise speed is no better than my CH 701 with 80 hp Rotax 70 knots 5200rpm 2 up. if you want an improvement in speed use 100hp Rotax cruise 80 Knots ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Hey To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Thanks for that reference. I had been on the site several times but messed that page somehow. JG's reasoning based on real world experience is compelling. I too am leaning toward eliminating the slats and installing VGs and maybe a longer wing too to complete the package. I wish that someone in addition to JG had already done the mods and could confirm the performance figures he is claiming. I was going to start with the wings next week but will hold off a bit. Jerry On Aug 29, 2007, at 8:59 AM, LRM wrote: Check out the longer wing page. http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php?id=48, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Hey To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; LRM Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: No slats Hi Larry, I must have missed something in the VG/slat discussion. Why are you increasing the wing span? Most reports I am aware of, the standard wing was used. Jerry On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:22 PM, LRM wrote: After careful consideration, I have decided to build my new 701 without slats and with vgs and longer wings. The slats are already built by the previous owner. I have to admit they are not workmanship up to my standards but they are ok and as good as most. They are now for sale with brackets, real cheap. Pick up only. E-mail me with an offer I can't refuse. I'm talking about, like almost take them off my hands. Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L - The Zenith-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com - The Zenith-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 28/08/2007 4:29 PM ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:12 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS George wrote: >How about tufting the canopy aft of the high point and along the top skin >behind the canopy. I'll bet there is considerable separation there, Good idea. There's a single canopy tuft test picture that I took years ago, 3/4 the way down the page: http://web.ionsys.com/~pchapman/zdc/zdc_photos_construction.htm (I haven't updated the 601 part of my website in years.) >As for the area near the wing root, I wonder if a suitable fillet wouldn't >improve that. ... Like Dave Austin put on his plane. While the video showed an area of disturbed airflow much larger than a fillet, the video was all at low speed and not cruise. (A small photo of Dave's fillet is on the same web page mentioned above.) Gig wrote: >Since you are doing tuft testing how about doing the side of they >fuselage and find a good location for a static port. I'm NOT planning to duct tape the camera to the wingtip to look back inboard. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea From: "dfmoeller" Not to be contrarian here, but I believe that change is actually the developed length of the hinge doubler, not the aileron rod hole. I have both the original issue drawings from 2001 and the 3/06 drawing set. The size of the hole is 38 mm (or 1 1/2") on both. The only difference is that in the original set, the distance from the flange was several mm more. That change was done very early though. Your 38 mm holes are still the correct size. I agree that adding a doubler or some sort of reinforcement, around that hole is extremely cheap insurance and I am adding it! Doug Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Malcolm, > > There is a section of the Zenith web site for builders. You must log in with a user name and password (which are available from Zenith) In that section there is an option to choose Zodiac XL and then select "For the lateset Drawings updates". This change can be found under "updates 2006" in the 3rd edition 3rd revision. I didn't locate this information until I had already drilled the 38mm hole. > > > > From their we site, I surmise that they have already done the re-testing, but just have not compiled and published the results. > > > > > > Jay in Dallas > > > "Malcolm Hunt" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jay > > > > Where did you get the information on the 32mm dia hole from? I have looked > > up the revisions to the drawings and cannot see it. > > > > Has anyone on the list made the spar cap angles (6W3-6&7) in two pieces to > > bend them on a 8' brake? I have e-mailed Zenair technical people asking > > their veiws without a reply. I wonder if they are still considering the > > implication for the load test of the wing as noted in this months > > newsletter? > > > > Best regards > > > > Malcolm Hunt > > CH601XL Plans Builder in England > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131665#131665 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:00 PM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets Peter & List, I have a 601HD (nose gear version) circa 1995 Plans & Kit. This A/C ( completed in late 1996 ) has over 550 hours with no operation on grass. I believe the nose gear on the HD and HDS are the same. I checked my plans, relative to your description of what you are seeing at your lower nose gear area. Observations: Where you note the sheared A5 rivets ( L & R sides ) there is no fastner required at all. I doubt you will have space to install a AN3 bolt. I believe you can just ignore the rivets. The centering ramps are to be secured with one AN3 bolt in the vertical leg as your picture shows and three AN3 bolts in the horizontal leg as your picture shows. The bolt head with the space under the head just aft of the firewall does look as though the hole was drilled crooked; the bolt is loose and bent or is just loose and cocked to one side in the hole. The original aircraft of the 1995 era were metal to metal but it was steel gear leg to aluminum "wear" plate ( not steel to steel ) both at top and bottom of the nose gear leg. ( I added the plastic/nylon wear block to the bottom of the nose gear on my aircraft at 350 hours due to excess wear of the aluminum wear plate - the original aluminum plate was left in place also). It appears to me that your original aluminum "wear" plate is also still in place. The top of my nose gear is still steel to aluminum with fairly heavy wear. I will soon add the plastic/nylon to the top. The gear leg in the picture seems to lack a good coat of grease as called for in the original Zenith operating instructions ( they suggest greasing the gear every 25 hours if my memory serves me). Also grease the ramps too. Based on my experience the nose gear must be kept greased well at both the top and bottom of the gear leg. I have found no loose bolts or sheared rivets in this area on my aircraft. Also, I would suggest that you check to assure the all the bolts associated with the nose gear are tight ( check it at annual condition inspection). Be aware that the nose gear gets a heavy workout on this aircraft on grass or rough surfaces. I still use the 1080HD bungee on my nose gear and see about 1" to 1 1/2" vertical movement of the nose gear leg in normal operation. As an aside I now use 1080 bungees ( not 1080HD ) on my main gear. ( I posted extensive information some months ago my experiences with my main gear). I hope this information is of benifit to you. Jim Hoak 601HD - Rotax 912UL - 551 hours. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Chapman" Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: HDS nose gear bottom attachment to fuselage - sheared rivets > > Just to mention a maintenance issue I recently found. > > This was on a 601 HDS with 450 engine hours (vs. fewer flight hours). > > The ramps on which the nose gear steering rod rests, appear to attach > to the U-channel that runs up the firewall, with a bolt and (I think) > an A5 rivet on each side. > > On both sides, the A5 was found at an annual inspection to be sheared off. > > The ca. 1995 kit was from an era when everything was steel on steel, > with no nylon in the gear slide assemblies. However, this aircraft > was built with a nylon block below the strap that is bolted under the > fuselage, which holds the nose gear tube. A couple of bolts > connecting the strap to the fuselage appear slightly loose, something > I'm now looking into. They're in the first row aft of the firewall, > as if the strap were getting bent up and down, more likely once those > rivets sheared. (Even in the small version of the photo attached, > one bolt head appears to not be flush with the strap.) > > It might be possible to replace the rivets with bolts, but there is > limited space on the inside of the U-channel because of other bolts > coming up vertically in that area. > > Clearly there's some stress on the area. The aircraft flies mainly > off pavement but from time to time uses a grass runway, and we know > how stiff the bungee gear system is. > > > Peter Chapman > Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:51 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS Peter: Nice set of pictures. I wonder if VGs mounted on the aft canopy bow would be too far aft to improve the situation. It should be relatively easy to attach them to the screws that tie the bow to the plexiglass and experiment a bit. Ideally the VGs should be forward of the crown of the canopy, but, at least in your photo, the flow appears to remain attached aft of that point. George Do not archive -- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Chapman" Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS > > > George wrote: > > >How about tufting the canopy aft of the high point and along the top skin > >behind the canopy. I'll bet there is considerable separation there, > > Good idea. > There's a single canopy tuft test picture that I took years ago, 3/4 > the way down the page: > http://web.ionsys.com/~pchapman/zdc/zdc_photos_construction.htm > (I haven't updated the 601 part of my website in years.) > > >As for the area near the wing root, I wonder if a suitable fillet wouldn't > >improve that. > > ... Like Dave Austin put on his plane. While the video showed an area > of disturbed airflow much larger than a fillet, the video was all at > low speed and not cruise. (A small photo of Dave's fillet is on the > same web page mentioned above.) > > Gig wrote: > > >Since you are doing tuft testing how about doing the side of they > >fuselage and find a good location for a static port. > > I'm NOT planning to duct tape the camera to the wingtip to look back inboard. > > > Peter Chapman > Toronto, ON > > > -- 4:29 PM > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:54 PM PST US From: "Herb Heaton" Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy Side Frame Hi Group, I am in the process of building my canopy frame for my 601XL. I can't find a dimension for the steel plate (0.05 x 100 x 30) welded at 31 deg to the side of the side frame. My plans are from April, 04 and I am looking at page 6-C-2, top, center iso view. The plate appears to be about 150mm back from the front pivot point but that's just a wag. Any help from those who have been there would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Herb Colorado Springs 601XL plans built, Turbo Subaru ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:35 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Elastic stop nuts in engine compartment OK listers: So far, I'm about half right. Attached is a scan from the Continental Motors Corp. Maintenance and Overhaul Manual for: Continental "C" Series, 4 Cylinder Aircraft Engines, Models C75, C85, C90 and )-200A Page 72, the paragraphs show in the pic. The starter DOES NOT call for elastic stop nuts. The Generator and tach drive DO call for elastic stop nuts. On the previous page, the oil sump (kidney tank) calls for elastic stop nuts IF the studs it is attached with are non-drilled. I have a Continental O-300 overhaul manual and it calls for elastic stop nuts in the same places, (Gen & tach drive, no kidney tank here). My Continental Manual for the E-185 series engine (old Bonanza) calls for AN365-524 (elastic, I believe) self locking nuts for the Gen installation. All these parts are attached directly to the engine case or accessory case. I'm not selling any method, I'm just wondering how you reconcile Continental specs. with the rule of thumb: "firewall forward, no elastic stop nuts". Regards, Randy, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:39 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Side Frame Herb, That piece is shown on my drawings (07/05) and the location is not dimensioned. However, the location is not critical. The outside cover for the forward part of the frame is secured by the pivot bolt and by riveting to this plate. Mine is already covered up or I would measure it for you. Since the location is not critical, I would just "eyeball" it. Jay in Dallas "Herb Heaton" wrote: > >Hi Group, > >I am in the process of building my canopy frame for my 601XL. I can't find >a dimension for the steel plate (0.05 x 100 x 30) welded at 31 deg to the >side of the side frame. My plans are from April, 04 and I am looking at >page 6-C-2, top, center iso view. The plate appears to be about 150mm back >from the front pivot point but that's just a wag. Any help from those who >have been there would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks in advance, >Herb >Colorado Springs >601XL plans built, Turbo Subaru > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:13 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Side Frame Hi Herb, I had the same problem .I just looked at the pictures and placed it where it looked like it sould be .The only purpose of this piece is to recieve 3 rivets attaching 6C3-6 . Mine worked out fine ,so close should be good enough . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb Heaton" Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy Side Frame > > Hi Group, > > I am in the process of building my canopy frame for my 601XL. I can't > find a dimension for the steel plate (0.05 x 100 x 30) welded at 31 deg to > the side of the side frame. My plans are from April, 04 and I am looking > at page 6-C-2, top, center iso view. The plate appears to be about 150mm > back from the front pivot point but that's just a wag. Any help from > those who have been there would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Herb > Colorado Springs > 601XL plans built, Turbo Subaru > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.