---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/30/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:29 AM - Re: Canopy Side Frame (GLJSOJ1) 2. 07:30 AM - Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) (Scotsman) 3. 07:43 AM - Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (Terry Phillips) 4. 08:01 AM - Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Scotsman) 5. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) (Bryan Martin) 6. 08:25 AM - Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) (Scotsman) 7. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 09:14 AM - Re: tuft test video - 601 HDS (Peter Chapman) 9. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea (Peter Chapman) 10. 01:05 PM - Sunshades revisited () 11. 02:44 PM - Re: Sunshades revisited (Bryan Martin) 12. 03:08 PM - Re: Sunshades revisited (rickpitcher) 13. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Sunshades revisited () 14. 03:36 PM - Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) (jetboy) 15. 03:50 PM - Corvair engine in Southern California (lwinger) 16. 03:51 PM - Re: Sunshades revisited (rickpitcher) 17. 03:53 PM - Re: Sunshades revisited (rickpitcher) 18. 04:59 PM - Re: Sunshades revisited (robert stone) 19. 07:25 PM - 701 slats (LRM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Side Frame From: "GLJSOJ1" JUST MEASURED MINE FROM THE KIT AND IT IS 210 MM FROM CENTER OF THE CANOPY RAIL HINGE BOLT TO THE BEGINNING OF THE STEEL PLATE. I HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THE FLASHING THAT ATTACHES THERE FOR OVER A WEEK OFF AND ON, BUT I FINALLY GOT IT LIKE I WANTED IT. THANKS TO ALL HOW HELPED ME WITH THAT GLENN -------- 601XL BUILDER ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131782#131782 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) From: "Scotsman" Is there a difference in the structure of an Xl versus the UL model maybe in the interest of weigh saving to meet the LSA requirements? j do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131792#131792 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:35 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tuft test video - 601 HDS Peter, thank you for posting the video. Very interesting results there. It is really great when someone takes the time and effort to produce real data, rather than just speculating--like I am doing ;-) Your study reminds me of the work that Klaus Truemper did on his HDS--see: http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/airplane.html and follow the link to the wing root fairing. Klaus used a manometer to look at the pressure at various points on his HDS and demonstrated that the curvature of the fuselage over the wing creates a low pressure region at the wing root aft of the widest part of the fuselage. Klaus built wing root fairings that reduced the effect of the low pressure zone and improved the performance and stall behavior of his aircraft. Is it possible that the inward flow at the aileron is caused by the low pressure region all the way in at the wing root? I plan to put fairings on my 601XL, but I'm hoping that someone will start selling them before I get to that point so that I don't have to make them myself. The turbulence around the wing locker is troubling. I am putting in the wing lockers, and I am planning to use flexible tape to cover the hinge. Soaring pilots commonly use tape to seal gaps, see, e.g., http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm My goal was primarily to seal the rain out. However, there might be a fringe benefit of reducing boundary layer separation caused by the locker door hinge. The separation along the inboard side of the wing locker door could be caused by air leakage from the inside of the wing. The bottom of the wing is a high pressure area. I'm guessing that the inside of the wing is pressurized through any small opening on the bottom of the wing. There appears to be a gap along the inside edge of the locker door. Leakage through that gap could induce separation, and your video suggests that is a problem area on that wing. It would be interesting to know if taping that gap would affect the separation in that zone. If leakage is causing the problem, possible fixes might be to use more Dzus fasteners along the door edge, putting a thin gasket to improve the seal, or stiffening the door by gluing or riveting on longitudinal doubler strips to the inside of the door. Thanks again for posting the video. Nice work. Terry At 03:54 PM 8/29/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >I finally got around to doing a little video of some tuft testing on the >601 HDS I fly, filmed with a 0.3 wide angle lens on the camcorder. > >It is posted online at http://pcxstuff.blip.tv/file/356716/ and can also >be downloaded as a 13MB .wmv file. It's not a particularly clear video. > >It was an unprofessional test, a flight with no detailed plan, on a dark, >turbulent day, quickly done before the weather got any worse. But I >haven't seen anything better, so this will have to do until I get around >to trying again. > >In its nearly 2 minutes, the video basically shows slow flight, throttled >back, with a few approaches down to incipient stalls. Audio was removed >(including a lot of oil canning noise near the stall!), but some indicated >speeds called out by the pilot are shown in text on screen. Speeds are >typically low, eg 70 mph indicated before slowing down, then down to 50 or >40 indicated (naturally likely inaccurate) for the slow flight. The pitch >angle against the horizon is an indication of the speed. > >At about 37 and 49 seconds seconds there are clear stall recoveries, after >a lot of wing rock. I don't know if there was an actual stall break or the >pilot simply let the stick forward once the bucking was getting enough. > > >I haven't thought through it all yet myself, but a few observations are >possible: > >-- One can clearly see the region of separated airflow spread outboard and >forward as the wing gets closer to a stall. > >-- Even when in slow flight not right at a stall, a large area near the >wing root doesn't have straight fore to aft flow. I'm not current on my >aerodynamics, but a waving yarn might only indicate an area of a >turbulence within a thick boundary lager, and not fully separated flow. >One can't see the actual wing/fuselage junction, but even outboard of >that, the flow isn't all front to back. > >-- It doesn't take much to mess up airflow right down on the wing >surface, if closer to the leading edge. >There's a yarn just behind of the aft, inboard Dzus fastener on the wing >locker. Even when the plane dives with speed when recovering from a stall, >that yarn doesn't like to stay straight. On the other hand, the yarn >behind the top of the main wheel strut, also behind an obstacle, does stay >straight. A quick guess is that the slight upwards bulge of the wing >locker near the front of the locker is what's actually causing a flow >problem, not the Dzus fastener. The slight bulge is far enough forward on >the airfoil that the shape becomes critical, unlike for the gear strut >which is further back. The yarn that is forward of the "behind the Dzus" >one, is right on the locker, and it shows a tendency to lift off the >surface rather than stay flat on the wing. > >-- There is substantial inwards flow near the trailing edge of the wing. >Some is expected near the tip as the tip vortex rotates up and inwards. >But at low speed there's some inwards flow component along the aileron >pretty much all the way inboard. Some inwards flow can be expected from a >sharply forward swept trailing edge wing, but the amount is much more than >I expected. > >-- Right when the plane is about to stall, it is impressive how many of >those little yarns are trying to go the wrong way, to jump the >aerodynamically sinking ship! > > >Peter Chapman >Toronto, ON > Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea From: "Scotsman" Andy et al. Just browsing through the accident reports I was wondering, as I haven't received my ordered kit, if you noted any potential design "problems" around about the 6 feet inboard mark as I noted that NTSB did specify additional damage in this area? "The leading edge wing skins for both wings had separated from the wing spars and ribs about 6 feet from the wing tip inboard" Is there any possibility that the wing baggage locker space set could interfere with the structure stability of the wing under a torsional load? j Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131798#131798 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:18 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) According to the Zenith web site, the 601UL is very similar to the 601HD but is built lighter in some areas with a correspondingly lower gross weight rating for the Canadian Advanced Ultralight category. The 601UL has at least 100 lbs less useful load than either the HD or the XL models. All three models will fit within the US LSA limitations with the XL being the closest match to the LSA category. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-ul.html http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hd.html http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/specification.html > > > Is there a difference in the structure of an Xl versus the UL model > maybe in the interest of weigh saving to meet the LSA requirements? > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) From: "Scotsman" Makes you wonder what was reduced/removed to facilitate this? j Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131805#131805 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:28 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea I suspect the area mentioned is around the end of the fuel tank in the nose of the wing. I personally didn't worry too much about that part of the report. Of course, I'm no expert -- just another builder. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 08:00 AM 8/30/2007, you wrote: > > >Andy et al. > >Just browsing through the accident reports I was wondering, as I >haven't received my ordered kit, if you noted any potential design >"problems" around about the 6 feet inboard mark as I noted that NTSB >did specify additional damage in this area? > >"The leading edge wing skins for both wings had separated from the >wing spars and ribs about 6 feet from the wing tip inboard" > >Is there any possibility that the wing baggage locker space set >could interfere with the structure stability of the wing under a >torsional load? > >j > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131798#131798 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:54 AM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tuft test video - 601 HDS At 10:37 30-08-07, you wrote: > Is it possible that the inward flow at the aileron is caused by > the low pressure region all the way in at the wing root? For all I know, sure, it could be encouraging some of that inwards flow. >There appears to be a gap along the inside edge of the locker door. Yes that particular locker door is a little bulged in spots -- I think a snugly fitted door would do better. Just didn't come out perfectly when built. Next time I should put yarn right next to those gaps to see if I can detect outflow -- or tape up the gap for one flight. I personally wouldn't worry about gap taping the hinges given all the other drag sources, and because water can also leak in from the sides. But no objections if one can get it to fit snugly over the hinge. (I did use some sort of gap seal like tape on the top wing skin where the locker doors press on them when closed, to try to reduce any metal on metal (or metal on paint) rubbing.) I sometimes thought of doing water manometer tests of pressures in the rad ducting in my engine compartment... and now that I've looked again at Klaus' page, I see he has done exactly that. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:19 AM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Rear Spar Reinforcement Idea At 11:00 30-08-07, you wrote some stuff that was pretty suspicious about 601 structural integrity: > > >"The leading edge wing skins for both wings had separated from the >wing spars and ribs about 6 feet from the wing tip inboard" This is re: the 601 XL in report LAX06LA105. Considering that the aircraft spun in with both wings folded, and the spars were extensively bent from the inflight failure and crash, the simple fact that leading edge skins had separated is of no real concern to me. >Is there any possibility that the wing baggage locker space set >could interfere with the structure stability of the wing under a >torsional load? Of course it reduces it but the design analysis used on homebuilts is not like airliners where more is taken into account. I'll guess that all anticipated torsional loads can be handled by the main and rear spar and ribs alone. Or perhaps the leading edge box was taken into account too for the torsional strength it can give. Any skin stiffness is then bonus. From another post: >Makes you wonder what was reduced/removed to facilitate this? j If that refers to the UL being lighter weight than the HD, you've got it turned around. They didn't take stuff out of the HD to make the UL; the UL came first and later was beefed up into the HD. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:02 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Sunshades revisited Has anyone recently (last two years or so) put a Koger shade in a 601XL? The website for the Koger shade only lists models for the RV7 and RV8 as far as I can tell. There was a post in the archives quite a while back referring to a Koger shade in a 601 but nobody has talked about it since. Anyone have recent info on the subject? Dred 610XL/Jabiru ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:07 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sunshades revisited I put one in my Zodiac this year. I bought it from someone on the list. I saw another Zodiac owner installing one on his plane at Oshkosh this year, he bought it at the show. I don't recall if I still have the box mine came in to get a part number or such off of. It may be the same as the one for the RV7 since both planes are side by side seating. On Aug 30, 2007, at 4:03 PM, wrote: > > Has anyone recently (last two years or so) put a Koger shade in a > 601XL? The website for the Koger shade only lists models for the > RV7 and RV8 as far as I can tell. There was a post in the archives > quite a while back referring to a Koger shade in a 601 but nobody > has talked about it since. > > Anyone have recent info on the subject? > > Dred > 610XL/Jabiru -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sunshades revisited From: "rickpitcher" dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote: > Has anyone recently (last two years or so) put a Koger shade in a 601XL? The website for the Koger shade only lists models for the RV7 and RV8 as far as I can tell. There was a post in the archives quite a while back referring to a Koger shade in a 601 but nobody has talked about it since. > > Anyone have recent info on the subject? > > Dred > 610XL/Jabiru I bought one from Koger a couple of months ago. The RV style fits our Zodiac bubbles just fine. I LOVE it! One of the best accessories I've bought for One Zulu Romeo Rick Pitcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131924#131924 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:11 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sunshades revisited Rick, was it an RV7 style shade? That would seem to me to be too short in the fore and aft direction. The RV7 has a rollover protection structure right behind the pilots so it has to stop there. We have a good bit more clear canopy going rearward from that point. Does the RV7 style shade do the job adequately for you? Dred ---- rickpitcher wrote: > I bought one from Koger a couple of months ago. The RV style fits our Zodiac bubbles just fine. > I LOVE it! One of the best accessories I've bought for One Zulu Romeo > > Rick Pitcher ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) From: "jetboy" The 601UL has less wing ribs installed amongst other things. There is nothing "taken out" to make it cheap or anything - just designed for a specific weight / performance category. If the aircraft is being operated outside of that category it needs the heavier parts, or placarded with the lower Va / Vne speeds that ZAC supplies the calculation formula for. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131931#131931 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair engine in Southern California From: "lwinger" There seem to be a bunch of Corvair builders on the list. I'm selling an engine and wanted to offer it to the Corvair and Zenith lists before Craigslist and Ebay. Pickup only in Orange County, CA. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwinger/sets/72157601765999888/show/ -------------------------------- 1965 to 1967 Corvair engine for conversion. T0707RK - 110HP, 164 cubic inch displacement originally from car with PowerGlide transmission and air conditioning. Heads on engine upon removal were mismatched. Got matched 3856759 heads from a 1965 110HP 9:1 compression ratio, dual valve engine. Engine is disassembled and surface cleaned. Ready for thorough cleaning and conversion. Paid over $400 one year ago. Will accept reasonable offer. -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair from scratch Control surfaces and wing parts complete Building the wing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131934#131934 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sunshades revisited From: "rickpitcher" dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote: > Rick, was it an RV7 style shade? That would seem to me to be too short in the fore and aft direction. The RV7 has a rollover protection structure right behind the pilots so it has to stop there. We have a good bit more clear canopy going rearward from that point. Does the RV7 style shade do the job adequately for you? > > Dred > > > ---- rickpitcher wrote: > > > > I bought one from Koger a couple of months ago. The RV style fits our Zodiac bubbles just fine. > > I LOVE it! One of the best accessories I've bought for One Zulu Romeo > > > > Rick Pitcher > > > > > I think he said it was for an RV6. Send an email to :r.koger@mchsi.com and tell him you want a shade for the Zodiac. He knows which one we need. Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131935#131935 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sunshades revisited From: "rickpitcher" rickpitcher wrote: > > dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote: > > Rick, was it an RV7 style shade? That would seem to me to be too short in the fore and aft direction. The RV7 has a rollover protection structure right behind the pilots so it has to stop there. We have a good bit more clear canopy going rearward from that point. Does the RV7 style shade do the job adequately for you? > > > > Dred > > > > > > ---- rickpitcher wrote: > > > > > > > I bought one from Koger a couple of months ago. The RV style fits our Zodiac bubbles just fine. > > > I LOVE it! One of the best accessories I've bought for One Zulu Romeo > > > > > > Rick Pitcher > > > > > > > > > > > I think he said it was for an RV6. > Send an email to :r.koger@mchsi.com and tell him you want a shade for the Zodiac. He knows which one we need. > > Rick Here's their webpage: http://cleavelandtool.com/kogercompany/sunshade.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131936#131936 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:02 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sunshades revisited Dred, My dad Bob ordered and installed one of the Koger shades in my ZodiacXL about five months ago and it is too small. It does a fair job but should be just a little wider and about 9 inches longer. He worked with Ralph on a suitable design for the ZodiacXL after he bought mine by designing one specifically for the ZodiacXL and sent him the dimensions. If you e-mail him at r.koger@mchsi.com, he should have the proper dimensions to make you a shade that will provide maximum shade. Mention my dad's name, Bob Stone and remind him that he was sent the proper dimensions Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 3:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Sunshades revisited > > Has anyone recently (last two years or so) put a Koger shade in a 601XL? > The website for the Koger shade only lists models for the RV7 and RV8 as > far as I can tell. There was a post in the archives quite a while back > referring to a Koger shade in a 601 but nobody has talked about it since. > > Anyone have recent info on the subject? > > Dred > 610XL/Jabiru > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:17 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 slats In a recent post a fellow "poster" used the "I have heard" statement to compare performances between aircraft with equal HP engines performing about the same. This is what he said; "There is a savana in Nth Qld with the VGs and VG wing mod with 80HP Rotax and From what I have heard the cruise speed is no better than my CH 701 with 80 hp Rotax 70 knots 5200rpm 2 up. if you want an improvement in speed use 100hp Rotax cruise 80 Knots". There is nothing wrong with the post other than it has minimum validity to it. Except the more hp part. A person can say "I have heard" about anything. The only problem is that if it repeated enough, it becomes fact. There are only a few ways a true comparison like that can be made. One is if all the variables are the same and it becomes a true apples to apples comparison and another is if enough runs are made by both to compute some types of averages or I guess they could race. But, "I have heard", nope I don't buy that one. You will have to pardon me, it's just a pet peeve with me. However, I have heard, less drag, more lift equals better performance. That's just a rumor, don't repeat it. lol. Just funning, don't get upset. Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.