Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (Gary Ray)
2. 06:20 AM - Hanger search (Bob)
3. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae)
5. 07:53 AM - BRS (george.mueller@aurora.org)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: xxx Hanger search (John Bolding)
7. 08:02 AM - Re: Hanger search (Ashcraft, Keith -AES)
8. 08:42 AM - Re: Hanger search (Randy L. Thwing)
9. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? ()
10. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
11. 08:55 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (John Marzulli)
12. 09:21 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae)
13. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Electronics (japhillipsga@aol.com)
14. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
15. 10:22 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (Dan Lykowski)
16. 11:21 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae)
17. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Paul Mulwitz)
18. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? ()
19. 12:01 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Mitch Hodges)
20. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
21. 12:35 PM - Re: Battery cable size (n85ae)
22. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
23. 01:08 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae)
24. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Gary Boothe)
26. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez)
27. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Russell J.)
28. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Herb Heaton)
29. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Southern Reflections)
30. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (LarryMcFarland)
31. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Southern Reflections)
32. 03:06 PM - Toe Brake Redesign for 601 HDS (Klaus Truemper)
33. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Graeme)
34. 03:55 PM - Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Mark Sherman)
35. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (David Downey)
36. 05:06 PM - Zenith building expense (Bill Naumuk)
37. 08:14 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Ron Lendon)
38. 08:58 PM - BRS YouTube video (David Mikesell)
39. 09:47 PM - Re: BRS YouTube video (NYTerminat@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: HELP Advice please!!! |
So far So Good, I would self document with several of my own pictures also.
Don't rely on shippers for safe keeping of any records. It is always good
to open a damaged box while the delivery truck is there, or refuse the
delivery if the packaging is suspect.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Lykowski" <engineerguy3737@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!!
<engineerguy3737@yahoo.com>
>
>
> All,
> I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have contacted the
shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to find out
what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is bent, but it
has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping slip says to
leave everything in the state of when I found the damage.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate
>
> I know this is not Zeniths fault.
>
> Any advice will be very much appreciated.
> Why do I always get crappy shippers.
>
> Dan Lykowski
> Dynon Avioncs
>
>
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
> --
8:20 PM
>
>
Message 2
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This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and
the
net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport wh
o
will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to b
uy
and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and
aircraft storage.
Anyone with recommendations?
Bob, Wichita
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Are you scratch building?
You sort of imply that cheaper will result in a low performing plane. I disagree.
Cheaper is more the result of learning to do more things yourself and be willing
to wait more time for your chance to fly, and less the result of cutting
corners and ending up with a low performing plane.
It is all about paying with time vs. paying with money.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com
Southern Reflections <purplemoon99@bellsouth.net> wrote: Thats a good thing,
if he can make it happen. I would thiink it would very basic and not,climb
or fly that fast IF he can bring it in at that price. Funny you should
quote that number, thats the price we were shooting at . As you move along things
change, not to forget mistakes etc. I'am not saying that it can't happen.i'am
saying there's a good chance it won't happen. Best of luck to him
Joe N101HD 601HD XL /
RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dominguez
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
AB is scratch building, if he goes with the alternative engine route, he will
be well bellow $30K.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: "Bill Naumuk"
AB-
REALITY CHECK!
Not quite. Very few Zenith builders get out for less than $30K-$40K.
You could buy a zero-time engine for that.
The money is trivial, the time you spend building isn't. I don't want
to think about what my HDS actually cost if I counted the hours I've spent
on my project at the rate I get at work. However, I'm sure I still beat the
cost of a new Cessna 162. Buying used is a different story.
After a while, you'll find out. Money IS no object when you
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,
here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative,
but it's the same advice I would give anybody.
Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost
me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving
money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less
than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I
paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training
which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel
endorsement, mountain training, and commercial.
Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't
have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to
them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude
that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to
force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're
doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself
wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never
completed.
I say get a couple years in the saddle first.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136760#136760
Message 5
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I elected to install a BRS in my 701, and there is a drawing on the Zenith
builders area on the website showing how it is installed. I agree with a
lot of what Mark at Can Zac says about the BRS in a previous post. 99% of
the time you should be able to put the 701 down if you have an engine
failure etc. However during my flying career I have increasingly liked
the idea of having options and keeping options open. It is a bad feeling
to be down to your last option during a flight with all your chips on the
outcome of that one option. It is much worse, I imagine, to be out of
options during a flight.
The negatives of the BRS are it costs a lot, it uses up 30 pounds of the
40 pounds capacity in you baggage area, and it is a less than elegant
installation. In my case I have wing leading edge tape covering the
straps that are exposed on the top of the fuselage. (There are some better
solutions out there, like fabricating channels, etc.)
The positive to the BRS is to have just one last option in case something
very unlikely happens, but these things do happen. Here are two examples.
My EAA tech counselor for my 701 project built a RV 6A. He was a very
fastidious builder, much better than I, and a very careful pilot. He was
flying formation with another RV 8 and they hit each while they were
breaking for approach to landing. Neither plane was damaged that much by
the collision, but the RV 8 had a little less damage than the RV6A, and
was able to land. The RV 6A crashed killing my tech counselor. Now
nobody puts a BRS into an RV because the installation is not feasible, but
if he would have had one, it is very possible he would have been able to
deploy it, and the deployment would have saved him. A second example. A
long time ago I used to get aerobatic training in a Decathlon with a
30,000 hour flight instructor. When the International Aerobatic Club
competitions were at Fond Du Lac, WI he used to inspect the aircraft
before the competition and they used to joke about how his inspections
were "annuals". Ironically, the Decathlon he instructed in had an
improperly welded wing to strut fitting and it took a long time, but it
finally broke. Now nobody puts a BRS in an aerobatic aircraft because you
have chutes and you do the maneuvers with a 3,000 agl floor so you can get
out. But the instructor and his student could not get out in time,
possibly because of interference from the wing, and they were both killed.
If they would have had a BRS it would have very possibly saved them both.
Will I ever use the BRS? Very unlikely, especially in a 701. The most
likely scenario would be a mid air that left me with enough wits to pull
the handle. Or maybe my passenger pulls the handle when I grab my chest
and slump over. For many folks the negatives of a BRS outweigh the
positives, and 99.99% of the time they are exactly right. But I
personally would put a BRS in any aircraft I owned if it was feasible,
because it is just one more option available to you during a flight and
having that option there is worth something to me even if it never is
used.
George in Milwaukee
701 912UL
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Hanger search |
Bob, try www.hangerdoorsecrets.com gotta pay a few bucks for the
download but it has saved several guys at our airpark THOUSANDS and
given them better doors to boot. Unfortunately I built my hanger 22 yrs
ago so just built 3 section rolling doors on tracks, cheap and still
works fine with almost zero maintenance. Used 2" square tubing. Would
use 3" if doing it again.
Make it bigger than you can afford, no such thing as a hanger too big,
mine is 60 wide 40 deep but as I moved out of a 2 car garage all my
"stuff" swelled up so by the time I made the trip across town the hanger
was almost filled up, by the next morning I was out of room again.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:18 AM
Subject: xxx Zenith-List: Hanger search
This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was
sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another
municipal airport who will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm
looking for options to buy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to
provide both building and aircraft storage.
Anyone with recommendations?
Bob, Wichita
====
Message 7
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Bob,
You might try this place. I see them advertise in Kitplanes, and AOPA
Pilot. See what they have to offer.
http://www.miracletruss.com/
Keith
*************************************************************************
**************************
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bob
Sent: Thu 9/27/2007 7:18 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Hanger search
This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and
the
net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport
who
will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to
buy
and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and
aircraft storage.
Anyone with recommendations?
Bob, Wichita
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Hanger search |
Hello:
Out of curiosity, where are you at and what is the ground lease rate at
the new airport? Here at North Las Vegas (VGT), ground lease is
$110.00/month for a roughly 48 x 38 Tee hanger.
I am embarking on a hanger project myself (at another private airport)
but it is on commercial zoned land so I have to deal with Commercial
building & fire codes, no fun.
Try R & M in Idaho:
http://aviationbuildingsystem.com/hangars.html
They have a good reputation in our area and are very helpful.
I plan to use the Horton bottom roller stack doors. I don't like the
bi-folds where you have to open the whole wall just to move something in
or out, especially in a howling wind after you've just spent time
heating up the work space.
Randy, Las Vegas do not archive
This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was
sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another
municipal airport who will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm
looking for options to buy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to
provide both building and aircraft storage.
Bob, Wichita
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Ditto. I am admittedly, a tinkerer and I could and should cut to the chase and
progress more quickly on my 601XL build. With that caveat out of the way, I will
tell you that I am currently at 670 hours on a 601XL and I'm just beginning
to do some wiring. I haven't even begun to fit the wings to the fuselage yet
(the %$!##!*!! hangar project is not complete yet...... oh yeah, should we add
in the cost of the hangar that I would not need if I was renting?) nor have
I begun the FWF work.
I built the rudder at a factory workshop in December 2005 and recevied the entire
kit in mid March 2006. My final building cost will probably be $55K - $60K.
I previously built a fat ultralight 2 place trainer which I still fly and that
ate up 450 hours and $22K. This plane is very likely the last one I will build
for myself because I resent the massive domination of my spare time despite my
desire and determination to finish this plane. I'm doing it because the plane's
abilities fit the flying I want to be able to do without having find a rental
plane and reserve it well ahead of time for every flight. If I want to stay
overnight... no problemo.... it's my plane. Last minute opportunity to go aloft?
Likewise.
Make no mistake, renting IS cheaper and does not eat up your time like some black
hole that just popped up in your schedule book. The only sane reasons to build
your own plane (oxymoron) are your own pride and self satisfaction combined
with the convenience of being in control of the use of the plane. What I have
spent and am currently spending on my two planes AND the hangar would pay the
rent for 665 hours at $200/hour. That would just about triple my current flying
time (325) and I'd be sitting on the interest rather than paying for the plane
and hangar up front..... not an insignificant little distinction there.
Oh and BTW, that calculation does not include the value of the hours I've put in
so far and the hours left to finish N4568G (res.). On top of that, who can estimate
the toll on one's family if they are not the "let's go out to the shop
and help dad build an airplane" type of folks?
This ain't no Polyanna story and it's not a rant to discourage the prospective
builder either. It's just an honest look at the big picture for those who are
interested.
Dred
---- n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,
> here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative,
> but it's the same advice I would give anybody.
>
> Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost
> me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving
> money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less
> than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I
> paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training
> which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel
> endorsement, mountain training, and commercial.
>
> Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't
> have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to
> them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude
> that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to
> force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're
> doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself
> wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never
> completed.
>
> I say get a couple years in the saddle first.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
How much would you estimate the airframe of a scratch
built 601XL could cost, including extra material to cover for mistakes?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com
Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,
here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative,
but it's the same advice I would give anybody.
Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost
me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving
money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less
than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I
paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training
which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel
endorsement, mountain training, and commercial.
Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't
have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to
them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude
that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to
force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're
doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself
wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never
completed.
I say get a couple years in the saddle first.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136760#136760
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: HELP Advice please!!! |
Ouch...
Was Sunshine the final shipper? When they dropped off my fuselage... well
lets just say I was surprised to actually get it.
-John in Seattle.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On 9/26/07, Dan Lykowski <engineerguy3737@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> All,
> I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have contacted the
> shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to find out
> what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is bent, but it
> has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping slip says to
> leave everything in the state of when I found the damage.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate
>
> I know this is not Zeniths fault.
>
> Any advice will be very much appreciated.
> Why do I always get crappy shippers.
>
> Dan Lykowski
> Dynon Avioncs
>
>
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute
rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K.
To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll
be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice.
Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot
flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not
smart.
You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly
some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok
pilot on your own. Probably another 100 or so after that to where you
are more than just a rank beginner. That's just reality. I honestly
think a pilot isn't really solid until around 200-300 hours, and in some
cases never.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136796#136796
Message 13
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Juan, that does sound great. I might wander down that way someday myself, Be
st regards, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:41 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics
Bill,
he dynons have a dimmer system internally. the GPS i have has a dimmer as
ell. the only thing without a dimmer is the readio and xpdr. not needed tho
ugh
ince they are not very illuminated.
compass is unlit. I have a red light behind be on a flex are that can be
elocated to the front panel by unplugging. strobes work great, nav lights
ork good though one issue I had is nav lights with tail light pull 7 amps,
the
witch the electrician put in is only 5 amps, so keeps goin on me. that is a
n
asy fix. some of the best flyin in florida is done shortly after sun set or
on
ful moon at night. I take my wife on date nights down the coast over the
ater on a full moon clear night is unbelievable.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Sent: Sep 25, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics
Juan, thanks for the info. Have you flown=C2-at night ? Is there a dimmer
to cool
he light so you can see above the panel for landing ? I always have a proble
m
ith instrument lighting when landing at night. Thanks and best regards, Bill
01XL 3300 120 hrs
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:06 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics
no steamers on mine, just the dynons, with Back up batteries.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
From: george may <gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Sep 21, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics
Bill--
I'm flying the 601xl with the D100 as my main flight instruments and the D1
80
ounted on the passenger side for my engine instrumentation and EFIS backup.
No
>roblem seeing any of the instrument reading of the D180 from the pilot seat
,
ither with or without split screen.
George May
601XL 912s 150hrs
ri, 21 Sep 2007 13:21:21 -0400From: japhillipsga@aol.comGeoff, I am interest
ed
n the D180 for the RV-8a I'm building. My concerns are is it really big enou
gh
o see. I measured and the eyeball to panel distance is almost four feet. I
on't want to be squinting trying to see some little light bar so far away th
ey
ll run together. Also, a friend of mine said the 180 won't keep up with a pl
ane
>oing anything other than "airliner type" flying. That it is too slow and is
lways trying to catch up ? I just have not had the opportunity to talk to
nyone actually using the unit and before I pay Mr. Dynon a bunch of money I
ope to know it'll fit me. Do you have any backup steam gages and such as bac
k
p? Thanks and best regards, Billdo not archive-----Original Message-----From
:
eoff Heap <stol10@comcast.net>To: zenith-list@matronics.comSent: Thu, 20 Sep
007 5:27 pmSubject: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics
Your own words Don
"Also, the efis is about $6000 dyon10 with all the bells and whistles, But t
he
jabiru site shows an instrument panel for around $2000. THoughts? "
If you price ANY basic dynon unit (except D180) it's ALSO about $2000. Bells
nd
whistles will crank up anyone's price. I bought the D180 combined EFIS/enigi
ne
monitoring system plus a full Rotax accessory package, battery backup, pitot
tube, remote compass,mounting gizmo's, the works, for $4180. Not trying to s
ell
>>Dynon here. Most of the competition looks good. I almost bought the
Inigma.....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135539#135539
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever =93 Get MORE with Windows Li
ve=84=A2
otmail=C2=AE. NOW with 5GB storage.
ration_HM_mini_5G_0907
-= - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
-========================-
= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums!
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-=======================
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
ttp://mail.aol.com
-= - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
-========================
-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums!
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://mail.aol.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the complete airplane.
Thats why I was asking for how much you would guess for an airframe alone,
without engine an instrumentation.
I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. Based on what
I have spent so far, how much I already have and some budgeting projections,
my airframe will realistically come about 7K. That is at current prices and
includes realistic reserve for damaged parts and purchasing of some parts that
I might not make. So, adding 12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and
5K for instrumentation we are talking about 24K.
Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to completing his
project, how much he has spend in his project so far, and his numbers where way
under my estimate.
Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing something very big
money wise or if kit builders really tend overestimate the cost of scratch building.
I believe the answer is somewhere in between.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute
rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K.
To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll
be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice.
Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot
flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not
smart.
You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly
some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok
pilot on your own. Probably another 100 or so after that to where you
are more than just a rank beginner. That's just reality. I honestly
think a pilot isn't really solid until around 200-300 hours, and in some
cases never.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136796#136796
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| Subject: | Re: HELP Advice please!!! |
Zentih said they would replace it, but I have to wait to remove anything fr
om the crate until it is inspected. So, I don't know if anything else is da
maged.=0A=0ARoadway Express was the shipper.=0A=0A-Dan=0A=0A----- Original
Message ----=0AFrom: John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com>=0ATo: zenith-l
ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:54:51 AM=0ASubject
: Re: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!!=0A=0AOuch...=0A=0AWas Sunshine the
final shipper? When they dropped off my fuselage... well lets just say I w
as surprised to actually get it.=0A=0A-John in Seattle.=0A=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE
=0A=0A=0AOn 9/26/07, Dan Lykowski <engineerguy3737@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A-->
Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski <engineerguy3737@yahoo.com>=0A
=0A=0AAll,=0A I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have con
tacted the shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to
find out what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is be
nt, but it has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping sl
ip says to leave everything in the state of when I found the damage.=0A=0A
=0Ahttp://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate=0A=0AI know this is not
Zeniths fault.=0A=0AAny advice will be very much appreciated.=0AWhy do I a
lways get crappy shippers.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AJohn Marzulli=0A
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/=0A=0A"Flying a plane is no different than r
iding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spok
=========================0A
=============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A _________
___________________________________________________________________________
=0AFussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user p
asp?a=7 =0A
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's
nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build
one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you
spent. :)
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Hi William,
One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably
planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your
plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if
it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing
something else.
You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are
around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is
probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not
forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding
equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay
taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original
poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play.
I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard
kit approach myself, but either choice has merit.
The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long
discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS
EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to
have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel,
maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane.
Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from
a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting
one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year.
Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the
conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an
existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must
have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old
Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to
build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly
now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future.
I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is
that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give
enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task.
Paul
XL fuselage
Camas, WA
At 10:16 AM 9/27/2007, you wrote:
>I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the
>complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would
>guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation.
>
>I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times.
>Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some
>budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K.
>That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged
>parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding
>12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for
>instrumentation we are talking about 24K.
>
>Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to
>completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far,
>and his numbers where way under my estimate.
>
>Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing
>something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend
>overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is
>somewhere in between.
>
>William Dominguez
>Zodiac 601XL Plans
>Miami, Florida
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
I agree with Jeff. Too many homebuilts are started and never finished. Find someone
to help you find a local plane or rent and learn to fly first. Learning
to fly and building a plane is a too big of a job to do without a lot of help.
If you don't have a pilot certificate, you can fly-off the test hours, when
you learn to fly in your own homebuilt, you or someone will likely spend a lot
of time getting the bugs out of the airplane - making it fly straight, engine
run correct and so forth. Get some flying experience before you try to do this
on your own.
When I became interested in flying, about 20 years ago, I was looking for the least
expensive way to get into the air. I went around the circle: Build a plane,
buy a unfinished homebuilt, get a used SpamCan, Build, Buy, Certified, build,
buy, certified... lets see, Zenith, Vans, kitfox, Cessna, piper......
I looked at a lot of homebuilts and noted that lots of homebuilts never get completed,
or never get flown much. Fact is, saw a email today on the kitfox list
for a homebuilt completed in 1994 and only 40 hours of total time; must not
have liked it.
In '97, I finally bought a '57 C172 for $19,500, finished private pilot, instrument
rating, Comm, CFI-I, ME, A&P... I'm convinced that I can fly and own that
old C172 cheaper than any homebuilt, LSA, Challenger, and when I was ready to
move up to a faster plane, I sold it for $25,000. Burned 87 unleaded, found
an A&P to supervise maintenance, We could actually go somewhere, fly in the clouds,
the whole shootin-match.
I'm currently flying the test hours off a fellow's ASAP Chanook+2 (UL style LSA).
Its cold and windy, not very fast, burns 100LL or 92UL. Doesn't have adjustable
trim, VFR-day-only, doesn't carry two fat people very well, and probably
cost as much as a 50's model c172.
So if you are just starting out, rent at least up to solo, then buy an old spam
can (C172, PA28...), and sell the spam can when your are ready to buy an engine
for your homebuilt.
Mitch - considering a CH701 as an LSA...
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
psm(at)ATT.NET wrote:
> I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the
> conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an
> existing source rather than building your own airplane.
>
[/quote]
To be completely fair to someone new, you also have to consider some of the "hidden"
costs of flying our beloved experimental aircraft (or flying in general).
These are things like added costs, or exclusions, on life and AD&D insurance
for flying experimental aircraft (assuming you find a policy that will cover
you while flying). I believe even AOPA's group term life insurance only pays
50% when flying an experimental aircraft.
At the end of the day, its still worth it for me, but it is things to consider.
--------
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Wings Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136836#136836
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to get into a contest here. My project will
take whatever it will take. I just want to understand where I have it wrong
in my estimate if any. I believe you have better reason than the ones you have
provide so far but you have not giving me these reasons and I would like to
know them. In other words, I want to know what is your basis to state that it
wont come for less than 30K. If you don't mind, I want to know your reasons and
not just "this is the way it is".
Feel free to answer me off list if you wish.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's
nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build
one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you
spent. :)
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831
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| Subject: | Re: Battery cable size |
I've soldered a LOT of connectors in Grumman E-2C's, so they definetly
are out there. However they are on the way out.
There are several reason solder isn't used much now:
1). Most people solder poorly, and even a lot of people who think they don't solder
poorly actually do. AND even perfect looking solder joints, when examined
under a microscope some times you can see a clear
separation line between the solder and the cup (i.e. the solder is simply
acting as a filler). I worked a job where everything we soldered was
inspected under a scope, that's how I know this. Even in a professional
shop, with a good QA department, almost everything hand soldered
would go through a couple iterations of rework before passing final
inspection.
2). Any trained ape can properly crimp connectors AND consistently
if they use the right tools.
I personally took a fly cutter and replaced the cutter with a swiveling
post. I attached a 18 gauge tefzel wire with an Amp crimp connector to
the post. The fly cutter was mounted in my drill press. I attached the
other end of the wire to the drill press frame with a spring so the wire
was under constant tension. I then turned on the drill press at let it
run. It was a couple hours before the crimped wire broke. It broke 1/2"
from the crimp in the insulated part of the wire. The crimp did not fail.
Use whatever you want, but for me I'll always use crimp connectors.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136847#136847
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
You got it Paul, Thanks.
I agree that renting will always be cheaper. I guess that I have taken this thread
out of its original topic into something different.
You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project because
I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me, labor is anything
that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy it. I'm enjoying this
project more now after a year of work than when I started. I'm afraid that if
the enjoyment keeps growing it might become an addiction. I'm keeping an eye on
myself, don't want to end up in a 12 step recovery program from airplane builders
anonymous.
You are right that those details you have mentioned (seats, paints) can add up
and they are easy to underestimate.
However, Scott Laughlin plane came under 20K if I remember correctly.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
Hi William,
One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably
planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your
plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if
it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing
something else.
You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are
around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is
probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not
forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding
equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay
taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original
poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play.
I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard
kit approach myself, but either choice has merit.
The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long
discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS
EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to
have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel,
maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane.
Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from
a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting
one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year.
Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the
conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an
existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must
have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old
Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to
build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly
now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future.
I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is
that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give
enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task.
Paul
XL fuselage
Camas, WA
At 10:16 AM 9/27/2007, you wrote:
>I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the
>complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would
>guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation.
>
>I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times.
>Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some
>budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K.
>That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged
>parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding
>12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for
>instrumentation we are talking about 24K.
>
>Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to
>completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far,
>and his numbers where way under my estimate.
>
>Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing
>something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend
>overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is
>somewhere in between.
>
>William Dominguez
>Zodiac 601XL Plans
>Miami, Florida
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them
something, so I just say uh-huh. :)
What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane.
Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. Since
you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my
best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing.
If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would
have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and
4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things.
I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your
own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have
a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year
forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same
point a kit builder starts from on day 1.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into |
aviation?
Hi William,
Thanks for the comments.
I agree with you about building addiction. I am nearing 2 1/2 years
now on my XL and believe I might have it flying in another 6 months
or so. My biggest fear is what will I do with my time when I don't
have the plane to work on.
Perhaps I will use the time flying around. However, the weather here
is nearly solid IMC for 6 months of the year. That doesn't allow for
the nice challenging project to spend an hour on every day.
I am happy to encourage anyone to build a plane. I just hate to see
someone start a plane project for all the wrong reasons. I really
believe the only good reason to build a plane is the joy of building
along with a personal need for a large project.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 12:48 PM 9/27/2007, you wrote:
>You got it Paul, Thanks.
>
>I agree that renting will always be cheaper. I guess that I have
>taken this thread out of its original topic into something different.
>
>You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my
>project because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with
>money. For me, labor is anything that people do for money but don't
>necessarily enjoy it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a
>year of work than when I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment
>keeps growing it might become an addiction. I'm keeping an eye on
>myself, don't want to end up in a 12 step recovery program from
>airplane builders anonymous.
>
>You are right that those details you have mentioned (seats, paints)
>can add up and they are easy to underestimate.
>
>However, Scott Laughlin plane came under 20K if I remember correctly.
>
>William Dominguez
>Zodiac 601XL Plans
>Miami, Florida
>
>Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
>
>Hi William,
>
>One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably
>planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your
>plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if
>it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing
>something else.
>
>You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are
>around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is
>probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not
>forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding
>equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay
>taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original
>poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play.
>
>I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard
>kit approach myself, but either choice has merit.
>
>The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long
>discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS
>EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to
>have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel,
>maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane.
>
>Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from
>a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting
>one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year.
>
>Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the
>conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an
>existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must
>have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old
>Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to
>build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly
>now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future.
>
>I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is
>that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give
>enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task.
>
>Paul
>XL fuselage
>Camas, WA
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
William,
Ditto.you can build a Pietenpol for around $10k. You can also buy them for
around the same, plus they are easy to fly. I also think that 30k is way
high.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to get into a contest here. My project
will take whatever it will take. I just want to understand where I have it
wrong in my estimate if any. I believe you have better reason than the ones
you have provide so far but you have not giving me these reasons and I would
like to know them. In other words, I want to know what is your basis to
state that it wont come for less than 30K. If you don't mind, I want to know
your reasons and not just "this is the way it is".
Feel free to answer me off list if you wish.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's
nothing for me to win here. I'm
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Thanks. As Paul also said, is all the little things. The devil is always in the
details.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com
My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them
something, so I just say uh-huh. :)
What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane.
Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. Since
you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my
best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing.
If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would
have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and
4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things.
I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your
own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have
a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year
forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same
point a kit builder starts from on day 1.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
---- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
You got it Paul, Thanks.
You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project
because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me, labor
is anything that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy it. I'm
enjoying this project more now after a year of work than when I started. I'm
afraid that if the enjoyment keeps growing it might become an addiction.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
+++++++++++++++++++
Build for the enjoyment, (beats vegetating on the couch in front of the TV)
if you fly it that's great, if not it makes a terrific decoration to hang
from the shop rafters.
Russell J.
do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Bill,
I have to agree with you. I'm at $10,000 for the entire airframe
including the turbo Subaru and tools. I still have to buy the
instruments and radio, but that shouldn't be more than $5,000. I think
plans building is much cheaper than any other method as long as you are
willing to scrounge for material and willing to put in a lot of time
making what ever you need. Besides, it is very satisfying to know you
made every part in the plane with your own hands.
Herb Heaton
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Colorado Springs, CO
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dominguez<mailto:bill_dom@yahoo.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get
into aviation?
I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the
complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would guess
for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation.
I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times.
Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some
budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K.
That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged
parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding 12K
for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for instrumentation we are
talking about 24K.
Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to
completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, and
his numbers where way under my estimate.
Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing something
very big money wise or if kit builders really tend overestimate the cost
of scratch building. I believe the answer is somewhere in between.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com> wrote:
I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the
absolute
rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K.
To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine
you'll
be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice.
Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot
flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not
smart.
You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to
fly
some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok
pilot on your own. Probably
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Jeff, that's the way I feel also, so I say again" go for it" and find our
for himself . Ijust want to know does he want the 150.00 used prop or the
1500.00 new Prince P- TIP the good brakes or the so,so ones The 150.00
hand held or the1000.00 I-Com the regular exhaust pipes or the custom
built,tuned ,cermaic coated ,the painted engine frame,or the powder coated
one and the list goes on and on.... again I say it, and I mean it The best
of luck to you both. By the way ,if you want talk to some one that can tell
you every thing,and any thing, that you want to know about scratch builbing
get Larry Mc farland to give some in put. To me he knows alot, there there
are more people on here that can give you the correct info, he has helped
me greatly , I'am not a scratch builder,but he is go on his web site and
look at his plane,and his work., that's a airplane.. Joe N101HD 601
XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
>
> Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's
> nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build
> one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you
> spent. :)
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into |
aviation?
Exactly right! If you're not building because you love the process and
just want to fly, you may never get it done. I took 5-1/2 years for my
HDS and it was the sweetest
build time I'll ever have spent. You're also correct about the empty
workshop syndrome. I've built recumbent bikes since and now look
forward to the next serious project. The HDS is a joy to fly and I seem
never to get past being in test and evaluation mode. I'm still learning
about seasonal flight characteristics and feel like a kid let loose with
a fabulous toy that never gets boring. Hang in there William!
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Russell J. wrote:
> ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as
> a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?
> You got it Paul, Thanks.
> You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project
> because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me,
> labor is anything that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy
> it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a year of work than when
> I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment keeps growing it might
> become an addiction.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami, Florida
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Jusr saw a Advid Flyer on Barnstomers, Yellow,Folding wingc (one pin)
trailer incl. beatiful job 19,500 Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: <n1345p@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
>
> I agree with Jeff. Too many homebuilts are started and never finished.
> Find someone to help you find a local plane or rent and learn to fly
> first. Learning to fly and building a plane is a too big of a job to do
> without a lot of help. If you don't have a pilot certificate, you can
> fly-off the test hours, when you learn to fly in your own homebuilt, you
> or someone will likely spend a lot of time getting the bugs out of the
> airplane - making it fly straight, engine run correct and so forth. Get
> some flying experience before you try to do this on your own.
>
> When I became interested in flying, about 20 years ago, I was looking for
> the least expensive way to get into the air. I went around the circle:
> Build a plane, buy a unfinished homebuilt, get a used SpamCan, Build, Buy,
> Certified, build, buy, certified... lets see, Zenith, Vans, kitfox,
> Cessna, piper......
>
> I looked at a lot of homebuilts and noted that lots of homebuilts never
> get completed, or never get flown much. Fact is, saw a email today on the
> kitfox list for a homebuilt completed in 1994 and only 40 hours of total
> time; must not have liked it.
>
> In '97, I finally bought a '57 C172 for $19,500, finished private pilot,
> instrument rating, Comm, CFI-I, ME, A&P... I'm convinced that I can fly
> and own that old C172 cheaper than any homebuilt, LSA, Challenger, and
> when I was ready to move up to a faster plane, I sold it for $25,000.
> Burned 87 unleaded, found an A&P to supervise maintenance, We could
> actually go somewhere, fly in the clouds, the whole shootin-match.
>
> I'm currently flying the test hours off a fellow's ASAP Chanook+2 (UL
> style LSA). Its cold and windy, not very fast, burns 100LL or 92UL.
> Doesn't have adjustable trim, VFR-day-only, doesn't carry two fat people
> very well, and probably cost as much as a 50's model c172.
>
> So if you are just starting out, rent at least up to solo, then buy an old
> spam can (C172, PA28...), and sell the spam can when your are ready to buy
> an engine for your homebuilt.
>
> Mitch - considering a CH701 as an LSA...
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Toe Brake Redesign for 601 HDS |
We have redesigned the toe brakes of our 601 HDS so that they become
much more effective. Details are shown on the page
http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/toe_brakes.html
As a result, the plane is easily stopped, and the brakes hold the plane
even under a full power runup. The latter is needed when departing
from a high density altitude airport with relatively short runway.
On the other hand, the change has been so made that it still is impossible
to lock up the wheels on dry pavement.
Happy flying,
Klaus
--
Klaus Truemper
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
University of Texas at Dallas
Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and
Computer Science EC31
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2712
klaus@utdallas.edu
www.utdallas.edu/~klaus
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
I have recently started scratch building a Ch 701. In australia 6061T6
is expensive but all the alloy for the project will cost less than $3500
aus.
plus main gear leg $400.
I started halfway throught August 2007 and work week nights approx 2-2.5 hrs
most nights.
I have all wing ribs, nose ribs, finished, main spar cut marker up and
drilled, stab and elevator spar cut and bent, rudder upright cut and bent,
wing rear pieces made.
I expect to have it finished with a S/H 912 80hp Rotax for approx $20000
aus.
a ch701 fuse kit landed in Australia is over $25000aus.
I own a CH701 which I rebuilt and re engined with a S/H 912 80hp after a
GSC propellor Failure.
I will be upgrading the 912 by fitting 912extra pistons $1000 aus and hope
to get 90 plus HP for same weight.
Graeme Cairns
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:07 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
>
> My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them
> something, so I just say uh-huh. :)
>
> What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane.
> Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc.
> Since
> you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my
> best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing.
>
> If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would
> have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and
> 4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things.
>
> I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your
> own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have
> a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year
> forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same
> point a kit builder starts from on day 1.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855
>
>
> --
> 27/09/2007 5:00 PM
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Well you guys made me do it. I have put off adding up my list of expenses to build
my 701 for a long time now. The wife is at work so I can bring in from the
shop, the 2" thick folder of invoices I have gathered up over the last six
years, and add them up.
I was shooting for something in the $35,000.00 range when I started this project.
This 701 is a pre-SP aircraft, so I have spent a fair amount of money to bring
it as close as I can to the new SP. Bought the parts from Zenith for about
$1,500.00 with shipping , this is included in the supplies cost.
This is certainly not a basic aircraft, if I wanted it, I bought it, but I shopped
for a good price. Had to replace a few parts I messed up, that is included
in the supplies cost.
My 701 is completed with just painting to go.
The kit was $13,135.00
The FWF $16,000.00 SkyShops 912ULS
The inst. panel $5,700.00 EIS/steam gages/ Valcom radio/GTX320A transponder/Intercom
Paint $900.00
Supplies $4,000.00 This includes all the electrical wires, fuel lines
( all hard plumbed with A&N fittings), cables/turnbuckles and lighting. Also
alodine, alumaprep and primer for all of the interior parts.
This brings me to about $39,735.00. Just for the airplane. I spent about $1,200.00
for tools related just to the airplane.
If you were to scratch build this same airplane I would guess you could save about
$6,000.00. Everything else I would still need to build this aircraft.
Mark Sherman
701/912ULS
Galt, CA
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
...just read about someone who estimated their completed FWB at about $5k.
=0A=0Ado not archive=0A =0ADave Downey=0A Harleysville (SE) PA=0A 100 HP
Corvair=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: William Dominguez <b
ill_dom@yahoo.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, Septem
ber 27, 2007 11:53:31 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way
for a non-pilot to get into aviation?=0A=0AHow much would you estimate the
airframe of a scratch =0Abuilt 601XL could cost, including extra material t
o cover for mistakes? =0A=0AWilliam Dominguez=0AZodiac 601XL Plans=0AMiami
Florida=0Ahttp://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com=0A=0An85ae <n85ae@yahoo.
ike you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,=0Ahere's my perspe
ctive. Admittedly it might come across as negative,=0Abut it's the same adv
ice I would give anybody.=0A=0AOk, I've built two, and flown a lot as a ren
tal pilot. Being a rental pilot cost=0Ame a LOT less than being a kit owner
. Don't kid yourself about saving =0Amoney. There is not any Zenith Kit, or
plans built that's going=0A to cost less=0Athan $30K when you're done. Tha
t is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I=0Apaid a substantial amount less tha
n that for ALL of my flight training=0Awhich includes my private, instrumen
t, complex endorsement, tailwheel=0Aendorsement, mountain training, and com
mercial.=0A=0AHomebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by t
hat I don't=0Ahave some feelings about the amount of time, and money I comm
it to=0Athem. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the atti
tude=0Athat no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to
=0Aforce time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you'r
e =0Adoing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself =0Aw
ishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never=0Acomple
ted.=0A=0AI say get a couple years in the saddle first.=0A=0ARegards,=0AJef
================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
___________________________________________________________________________
_________=0ADon't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Y
ahoo! Autos.=0Ahttp://autos.yahoo.com/index.html=0A =0A=0A
Message 36
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| Subject: | Zenith building expense |
All-
Yes, it is possible to build a Zenith for under $30K if you have a
basic panel and you never make a mistake.The last thing I wanted to do
was dissuade anyone from building, but I do want people to understand
that homebuilding isn't a walk in the park. I dare any builder to say
this is not good advice!
My main point was, build costs were not less than the cost of an
overhaul. When I was part owner of a C-172, we upgraded to an Air Plains
"Superhawk" conversion with a factory new O-360. $23K for everything.
'Nuff said.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Here is what I have so far. Rudder, Stab and Elevator, Ailerons, Flaps, Center
Spar, all wing ribs and spars, one left wing ready to store. The material is
in with the Shop Supplies.
Avionics 1090.96
Books 124.11
DVD's 80
Electrical 274.7
Empennage 261.05
Engine 2844.68
Facilities 2684.8
Miscellaneous 708.1
Planning 395
Shop Supplies 4338.21
Subscriptions 70
Tools 4210.8
Wings 2348.12
TOTAL 19430.53
TAXES 474.75
All and all it's more than my flight training cost with the 3 instructors and rental
aircraft. I soled 3 times, (once for each instructor), getting my PPL.
With all the money spend so far I only have half of an airplane built. But I have
to tell you, Im having a lot of fun. The cost has been spread out over two
years so far, and I still need radio and plan on using the Dynon 180 in the
panel.
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136927#136927
Message 38
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| Subject: | BRS YouTube video |
Hey, I lost that link to the video someone posted about the Trike taking
off as the BRS deployed, can someone please repost it for me.
Thanks
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: BRS YouTube video |
Since we are talking about chutes.
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PX7G0u0yI_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PX7G0u0yI)
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