---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/27/07: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:39 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (Gary Ray) 2. 06:20 AM - Hanger search (Bob) 3. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 4. 07:05 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae) 5. 07:53 AM - BRS (george.mueller@aurora.org) 6. 07:54 AM - Re: xxx Hanger search (John Bolding) 7. 08:02 AM - Re: Hanger search (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 8. 08:42 AM - Re: Hanger search (Randy L. Thwing) 9. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? () 10. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 11. 08:55 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (John Marzulli) 12. 09:21 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae) 13. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Electronics (japhillipsga@aol.com) 14. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 15. 10:22 AM - Re: HELP Advice please!!! (Dan Lykowski) 16. 11:21 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae) 17. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? () 19. 12:01 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Mitch Hodges) 20. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 21. 12:35 PM - Re: Battery cable size (n85ae) 22. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 23. 01:08 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (n85ae) 24. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Paul Mulwitz) 25. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Gary Boothe) 26. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 27. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Russell J.) 28. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Herb Heaton) 29. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Southern Reflections) 30. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (LarryMcFarland) 31. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Southern Reflections) 32. 03:06 PM - Toe Brake Redesign for 601 HDS (Klaus Truemper) 33. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Graeme) 34. 03:55 PM - Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Mark Sherman) 35. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (David Downey) 36. 05:06 PM - Zenith building expense (Bill Naumuk) 37. 08:14 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Ron Lendon) 38. 08:58 PM - BRS YouTube video (David Mikesell) 39. 09:47 PM - Re: BRS YouTube video (NYTerminat@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:11 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!! So far So Good, I would self document with several of my own pictures also. Don't rely on shippers for safe keeping of any records. It is always good to open a damaged box while the delivery truck is there, or refuse the delivery if the packaging is suspect. Gary Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Lykowski" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!! > > > All, > I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have contacted the shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to find out what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is bent, but it has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping slip says to leave everything in the state of when I found the damage. > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate > > I know this is not Zeniths fault. > > Any advice will be very much appreciated. > Why do I always get crappy shippers. > > Dan Lykowski > Dynon Avioncs > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > > -- 8:20 PM > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:57 AM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Zenith-List: Hanger search This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport wh o will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to b uy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and aircraft storage. Anyone with recommendations? Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:30 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Are you scratch building? You sort of imply that cheaper will result in a low performing plane. I disagree. Cheaper is more the result of learning to do more things yourself and be willing to wait more time for your chance to fly, and less the result of cutting corners and ending up with a low performing plane. It is all about paying with time vs. paying with money. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com Southern Reflections wrote: Thats a good thing, if he can make it happen. I would thiink it would very basic and not,climb or fly that fast IF he can bring it in at that price. Funny you should quote that number, thats the price we were shooting at . As you move along things change, not to forget mistakes etc. I'am not saying that it can't happen.i'am saying there's a good chance it won't happen. Best of luck to him Joe N101HD 601HD XL / RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? AB is scratch building, if he goes with the alternative engine route, he will be well bellow $30K. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com Bill Naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" AB- REALITY CHECK! Not quite. Very few Zenith builders get out for less than $30K-$40K. You could buy a zero-time engine for that. The money is trivial, the time you spend building isn't. I don't want to think about what my HDS actually cost if I counted the hours I've spent on my project at the rate I get at work. However, I'm sure I still beat the cost of a new Cessna 162. Buying used is a different story. After a while, you'll find out. Money IS no object when you href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "n85ae" Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case, here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative, but it's the same advice I would give anybody. Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel endorsement, mountain training, and commercial. Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never completed. I say get a couple years in the saddle first. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136760#136760 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: BRS From: george.mueller@aurora.org I elected to install a BRS in my 701, and there is a drawing on the Zenith builders area on the website showing how it is installed. I agree with a lot of what Mark at Can Zac says about the BRS in a previous post. 99% of the time you should be able to put the 701 down if you have an engine failure etc. However during my flying career I have increasingly liked the idea of having options and keeping options open. It is a bad feeling to be down to your last option during a flight with all your chips on the outcome of that one option. It is much worse, I imagine, to be out of options during a flight. The negatives of the BRS are it costs a lot, it uses up 30 pounds of the 40 pounds capacity in you baggage area, and it is a less than elegant installation. In my case I have wing leading edge tape covering the straps that are exposed on the top of the fuselage. (There are some better solutions out there, like fabricating channels, etc.) The positive to the BRS is to have just one last option in case something very unlikely happens, but these things do happen. Here are two examples. My EAA tech counselor for my 701 project built a RV 6A. He was a very fastidious builder, much better than I, and a very careful pilot. He was flying formation with another RV 8 and they hit each while they were breaking for approach to landing. Neither plane was damaged that much by the collision, but the RV 8 had a little less damage than the RV6A, and was able to land. The RV 6A crashed killing my tech counselor. Now nobody puts a BRS into an RV because the installation is not feasible, but if he would have had one, it is very possible he would have been able to deploy it, and the deployment would have saved him. A second example. A long time ago I used to get aerobatic training in a Decathlon with a 30,000 hour flight instructor. When the International Aerobatic Club competitions were at Fond Du Lac, WI he used to inspect the aircraft before the competition and they used to joke about how his inspections were "annuals". Ironically, the Decathlon he instructed in had an improperly welded wing to strut fitting and it took a long time, but it finally broke. Now nobody puts a BRS in an aerobatic aircraft because you have chutes and you do the maneuvers with a 3,000 agl floor so you can get out. But the instructor and his student could not get out in time, possibly because of interference from the wing, and they were both killed. If they would have had a BRS it would have very possibly saved them both. Will I ever use the BRS? Very unlikely, especially in a 701. The most likely scenario would be a mid air that left me with enough wits to pull the handle. Or maybe my passenger pulls the handle when I grab my chest and slump over. For many folks the negatives of a BRS outweigh the positives, and 99.99% of the time they are exactly right. But I personally would put a BRS in any aircraft I owned if it was feasible, because it is just one more option available to you during a flight and having that option there is worth something to me even if it never is used. George in Milwaukee 701 912UL ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:00 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: xxx Zenith-List: Hanger search Bob, try www.hangerdoorsecrets.com gotta pay a few bucks for the download but it has saved several guys at our airpark THOUSANDS and given them better doors to boot. Unfortunately I built my hanger 22 yrs ago so just built 3 section rolling doors on tracks, cheap and still works fine with almost zero maintenance. Used 2" square tubing. Would use 3" if doing it again. Make it bigger than you can afford, no such thing as a hanger too big, mine is 60 wide 40 deep but as I moved out of a 2 car garage all my "stuff" swelled up so by the time I made the trip across town the hanger was almost filled up, by the next morning I was out of room again. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:18 AM Subject: xxx Zenith-List: Hanger search This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport who will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to buy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and aircraft storage. Anyone with recommendations? Bob, Wichita ==== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hanger search From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" Bob, You might try this place. I see them advertise in Kitplanes, and AOPA Pilot. See what they have to offer. http://www.miracletruss.com/ Keith ************************************************************************* ************************** -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bob Sent: Thu 9/27/2007 7:18 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Hanger search This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport who will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to buy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and aircraft storage. Anyone with recommendations? Bob, Wichita ***************************************************************** This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ******************************************************************* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:10 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hanger search Hello: Out of curiosity, where are you at and what is the ground lease rate at the new airport? Here at North Las Vegas (VGT), ground lease is $110.00/month for a roughly 48 x 38 Tee hanger. I am embarking on a hanger project myself (at another private airport) but it is on commercial zoned land so I have to deal with Commercial building & fire codes, no fun. Try R & M in Idaho: http://aviationbuildingsystem.com/hangars.html They have a good reputation in our area and are very helpful. I plan to use the Horton bottom roller stack doors. I don't like the bi-folds where you have to open the whole wall just to move something in or out, especially in a howling wind after you've just spent time heating up the work space. Randy, Las Vegas do not archive This may be way off the subject of building but our airport was sold and the net result, I've lost my hanger. I moved to another municipal airport who will lease me land to build a hanger and now I'm looking for options to buy and erect a hanger. Would like a 50 X 60 to provide both building and aircraft storage. Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:25 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Ditto. I am admittedly, a tinkerer and I could and should cut to the chase and progress more quickly on my 601XL build. With that caveat out of the way, I will tell you that I am currently at 670 hours on a 601XL and I'm just beginning to do some wiring. I haven't even begun to fit the wings to the fuselage yet (the %$!##!*!! hangar project is not complete yet...... oh yeah, should we add in the cost of the hangar that I would not need if I was renting?) nor have I begun the FWF work. I built the rudder at a factory workshop in December 2005 and recevied the entire kit in mid March 2006. My final building cost will probably be $55K - $60K. I previously built a fat ultralight 2 place trainer which I still fly and that ate up 450 hours and $22K. This plane is very likely the last one I will build for myself because I resent the massive domination of my spare time despite my desire and determination to finish this plane. I'm doing it because the plane's abilities fit the flying I want to be able to do without having find a rental plane and reserve it well ahead of time for every flight. If I want to stay overnight... no problemo.... it's my plane. Last minute opportunity to go aloft? Likewise. Make no mistake, renting IS cheaper and does not eat up your time like some black hole that just popped up in your schedule book. The only sane reasons to build your own plane (oxymoron) are your own pride and self satisfaction combined with the convenience of being in control of the use of the plane. What I have spent and am currently spending on my two planes AND the hangar would pay the rent for 665 hours at $200/hour. That would just about triple my current flying time (325) and I'd be sitting on the interest rather than paying for the plane and hangar up front..... not an insignificant little distinction there. Oh and BTW, that calculation does not include the value of the hours I've put in so far and the hours left to finish N4568G (res.). On top of that, who can estimate the toll on one's family if they are not the "let's go out to the shop and help dad build an airplane" type of folks? This ain't no Polyanna story and it's not a rant to discourage the prospective builder either. It's just an honest look at the big picture for those who are interested. Dred ---- n85ae wrote: > > Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case, > here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative, > but it's the same advice I would give anybody. > > Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost > me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving > money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less > than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I > paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training > which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel > endorsement, mountain training, and commercial. > > Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't > have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to > them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude > that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to > force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're > doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself > wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never > completed. > > I say get a couple years in the saddle first. > > Regards, > Jeff ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:05 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? How much would you estimate the airframe of a scratch built 601XL could cost, including extra material to cover for mistakes? William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case, here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative, but it's the same advice I would give anybody. Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel endorsement, mountain training, and commercial. Homebuilt planes are great, but there is not a day goes by that I don't have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never completed. I say get a couple years in the saddle first. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136760#136760 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:18 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!! Ouch... Was Sunshine the final shipper? When they dropped off my fuselage... well lets just say I was surprised to actually get it. -John in Seattle. DO NOT ARCHIVE On 9/26/07, Dan Lykowski wrote: > > > > > > All, > I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have contacted the > shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to find out > what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is bent, but it > has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping slip says to > leave everything in the state of when I found the damage. > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate > > I know this is not Zeniths fault. > > Any advice will be very much appreciated. > Why do I always get crappy shippers. > > Dan Lykowski > Dynon Avioncs > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "n85ae" I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K. To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice. Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not smart. You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok pilot on your own. Probably another 100 or so after that to where you are more than just a rank beginner. That's just reality. I honestly think a pilot isn't really solid until around 200-300 hours, and in some cases never. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136796#136796 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics From: japhillipsga@aol.com Juan, that does sound great. I might wander down that way someday myself, Be st regards, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Juan Vega Sent: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:41 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics Bill, he dynons have a dimmer system internally. the GPS i have has a dimmer as ell. the only thing without a dimmer is the readio and xpdr. not needed tho ugh ince they are not very illuminated. compass is unlit. I have a red light behind be on a flex are that can be elocated to the front panel by unplugging. strobes work great, nav lights ork good though one issue I had is nav lights with tail light pull 7 amps, the witch the electrician put in is only 5 amps, so keeps goin on me. that is a n asy fix. some of the best flyin in florida is done shortly after sun set or on ful moon at night. I take my wife on date nights down the coast over the ater on a full moon clear night is unbelievable. Juan -----Original Message----- From: japhillipsga@aol.com Sent: Sep 25, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics Juan, thanks for the info. Have you flown=C2-at night ? Is there a dimmer to cool he light so you can see above the panel for landing ? I always have a proble m ith instrument lighting when landing at night. Thanks and best regards, Bill 01XL 3300 120 hrs do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Juan Vega Sent: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:06 pm Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics no steamers on mine, just the dynons, with Back up batteries. Juan -----Original Message----- From: george may Sent: Sep 21, 2007 6:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics Bill-- I'm flying the 601xl with the D100 as my main flight instruments and the D1 80 ounted on the passenger side for my engine instrumentation and EFIS backup. No >roblem seeing any of the instrument reading of the D180 from the pilot seat , ither with or without split screen. George May 601XL 912s 150hrs ri, 21 Sep 2007 13:21:21 -0400From: japhillipsga@aol.comGeoff, I am interest ed n the D180 for the RV-8a I'm building. My concerns are is it really big enou gh o see. I measured and the eyeball to panel distance is almost four feet. I on't want to be squinting trying to see some little light bar so far away th ey ll run together. Also, a friend of mine said the 180 won't keep up with a pl ane >oing anything other than "airliner type" flying. That it is too slow and is lways trying to catch up ? I just have not had the opportunity to talk to nyone actually using the unit and before I pay Mr. Dynon a bunch of money I ope to know it'll fit me. Do you have any backup steam gages and such as bac k p? Thanks and best regards, Billdo not archive-----Original Message-----From : eoff Heap To: zenith-list@matronics.comSent: Thu, 20 Sep 007 5:27 pmSubject: Zenith-List: Re: Electronics Your own words Don "Also, the efis is about $6000 dyon10 with all the bells and whistles, But t he jabiru site shows an instrument panel for around $2000. THoughts? " If you price ANY basic dynon unit (except D180) it's ALSO about $2000. Bells nd whistles will crank up anyone's price. I bought the D180 combined EFIS/enigi ne monitoring system plus a full Rotax accessory package, battery backup, pitot tube, remote compass,mounting gizmo's, the works, for $4180. Not trying to s ell >>Dynon here. Most of the competition looks good. I almost bought the Inigma.....Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135539#135539 Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more whatever =93 Get MORE with Windows Li ve=84=A2 otmail=C2=AE. NOW with 5GB storage. ration_HM_mini_5G_0907 -= - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List -========================- = - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================= ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - ttp://mail.aol.com -= - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http ://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:35 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation. I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K. That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding 12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for instrumentation we are talking about 24K. Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, and his numbers where way under my estimate. Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is somewhere in between. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K. To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice. Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not smart. You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok pilot on your own. Probably another 100 or so after that to where you are more than just a rank beginner. That's just reality. I honestly think a pilot isn't really solid until around 200-300 hours, and in some cases never. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136796#136796 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:57 AM PST US From: Dan Lykowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!! Zentih said they would replace it, but I have to wait to remove anything fr om the crate until it is inspected. So, I don't know if anything else is da maged.=0A=0ARoadway Express was the shipper.=0A=0A-Dan=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John Marzulli =0ATo: zenith-l ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:54:51 AM=0ASubject : Re: Zenith-List: HELP Advice please!!!=0A=0AOuch...=0A=0AWas Sunshine the final shipper? When they dropped off my fuselage... well lets just say I w as surprised to actually get it.=0A=0A-John in Seattle.=0A=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE =0A=0A=0AOn 9/26/07, Dan Lykowski wrote:=0A--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski =0A =0A=0AAll,=0A I am looking for advice on what to do about this. I have con tacted the shipper and will tomorrow morning (9/27) be contacting Zenith to find out what I need to do to make a claim. I don't know if the spar is be nt, but it has some nasty gouges in it. The instructions on the shipping sl ip says to leave everything in the state of when I found the damage.=0A=0A =0Ahttp://picasaweb.google.com/lykowdk/DamagedCrate=0A=0AI know this is not Zeniths fault.=0A=0AAny advice will be very much appreciated.=0AWhy do I a lways get crappy shippers.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AJohn Marzulli=0A http://701Builder.blogspot.com/=0A=0A"Flying a plane is no different than r iding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spok =========================0A =============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A _________ ___________________________________________________________________________ =0AFussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user p asp?a=7 =0A ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "n85ae" Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you spent. :) Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:11 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Hi William, One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing something else. You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play. I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard kit approach myself, but either choice has merit. The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel, maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane. Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year. Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future. I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task. Paul XL fuselage Camas, WA At 10:16 AM 9/27/2007, you wrote: >I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the >complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would >guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation. > >I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. >Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some >budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K. >That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged >parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding >12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for >instrumentation we are talking about 24K. > >Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to >completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, >and his numbers where way under my estimate. > >Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing >something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend >overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is >somewhere in between. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL Plans >Miami, Florida ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:38 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? I agree with Jeff. Too many homebuilts are started and never finished. Find someone to help you find a local plane or rent and learn to fly first. Learning to fly and building a plane is a too big of a job to do without a lot of help. If you don't have a pilot certificate, you can fly-off the test hours, when you learn to fly in your own homebuilt, you or someone will likely spend a lot of time getting the bugs out of the airplane - making it fly straight, engine run correct and so forth. Get some flying experience before you try to do this on your own. When I became interested in flying, about 20 years ago, I was looking for the least expensive way to get into the air. I went around the circle: Build a plane, buy a unfinished homebuilt, get a used SpamCan, Build, Buy, Certified, build, buy, certified... lets see, Zenith, Vans, kitfox, Cessna, piper...... I looked at a lot of homebuilts and noted that lots of homebuilts never get completed, or never get flown much. Fact is, saw a email today on the kitfox list for a homebuilt completed in 1994 and only 40 hours of total time; must not have liked it. In '97, I finally bought a '57 C172 for $19,500, finished private pilot, instrument rating, Comm, CFI-I, ME, A&P... I'm convinced that I can fly and own that old C172 cheaper than any homebuilt, LSA, Challenger, and when I was ready to move up to a faster plane, I sold it for $25,000. Burned 87 unleaded, found an A&P to supervise maintenance, We could actually go somewhere, fly in the clouds, the whole shootin-match. I'm currently flying the test hours off a fellow's ASAP Chanook+2 (UL style LSA). Its cold and windy, not very fast, burns 100LL or 92UL. Doesn't have adjustable trim, VFR-day-only, doesn't carry two fat people very well, and probably cost as much as a 50's model c172. So if you are just starting out, rent at least up to solo, then buy an old spam can (C172, PA28...), and sell the spam can when your are ready to buy an engine for your homebuilt. Mitch - considering a CH701 as an LSA... ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "Mitch Hodges" psm(at)ATT.NET wrote: > I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the > conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an > existing source rather than building your own airplane. > [/quote] To be completely fair to someone new, you also have to consider some of the "hidden" costs of flying our beloved experimental aircraft (or flying in general). These are things like added costs, or exclusions, on life and AD&D insurance for flying experimental aircraft (assuming you find a policy that will cover you while flying). I believe even AOPA's group term life insurance only pays 50% when flying an experimental aircraft. At the end of the day, its still worth it for me, but it is things to consider. -------- N601MH (Zenith 601HDS) Wings Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136836#136836 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:17 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to get into a contest here. My project will take whatever it will take. I just want to understand where I have it wrong in my estimate if any. I believe you have better reason than the ones you have provide so far but you have not giving me these reasons and I would like to know them. In other words, I want to know what is your basis to state that it wont come for less than 30K. If you don't mind, I want to know your reasons and not just "this is the way it is". Feel free to answer me off list if you wish. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you spent. :) Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Battery cable size From: "n85ae" I've soldered a LOT of connectors in Grumman E-2C's, so they definetly are out there. However they are on the way out. There are several reason solder isn't used much now: 1). Most people solder poorly, and even a lot of people who think they don't solder poorly actually do. AND even perfect looking solder joints, when examined under a microscope some times you can see a clear separation line between the solder and the cup (i.e. the solder is simply acting as a filler). I worked a job where everything we soldered was inspected under a scope, that's how I know this. Even in a professional shop, with a good QA department, almost everything hand soldered would go through a couple iterations of rework before passing final inspection. 2). Any trained ape can properly crimp connectors AND consistently if they use the right tools. I personally took a fly cutter and replaced the cutter with a swiveling post. I attached a 18 gauge tefzel wire with an Amp crimp connector to the post. The fly cutter was mounted in my drill press. I attached the other end of the wire to the drill press frame with a spring so the wire was under constant tension. I then turned on the drill press at let it run. It was a couple hours before the crimped wire broke. It broke 1/2" from the crimp in the insulated part of the wire. The crimp did not fail. Use whatever you want, but for me I'll always use crimp connectors. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136847#136847 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:55 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? You got it Paul, Thanks. I agree that renting will always be cheaper. I guess that I have taken this thread out of its original topic into something different. You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me, labor is anything that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a year of work than when I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment keeps growing it might become an addiction. I'm keeping an eye on myself, don't want to end up in a 12 step recovery program from airplane builders anonymous. You are right that those details you have mentioned (seats, paints) can add up and they are easy to underestimate. However, Scott Laughlin plane came under 20K if I remember correctly. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Hi William, One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing something else. You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play. I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard kit approach myself, but either choice has merit. The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel, maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane. Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year. Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future. I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task. Paul XL fuselage Camas, WA At 10:16 AM 9/27/2007, you wrote: >I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the >complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would >guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation. > >I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. >Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some >budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K. >That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged >parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding >12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for >instrumentation we are talking about 24K. > >Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to >completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, >and his numbers where way under my estimate. > >Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing >something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend >overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is >somewhere in between. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL Plans >Miami, Florida ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "n85ae" My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them something, so I just say uh-huh. :) What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane. Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. Since you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing. If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and 4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things. I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same point a kit builder starts from on day 1. Best Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:44 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Hi William, Thanks for the comments. I agree with you about building addiction. I am nearing 2 1/2 years now on my XL and believe I might have it flying in another 6 months or so. My biggest fear is what will I do with my time when I don't have the plane to work on. Perhaps I will use the time flying around. However, the weather here is nearly solid IMC for 6 months of the year. That doesn't allow for the nice challenging project to spend an hour on every day. I am happy to encourage anyone to build a plane. I just hate to see someone start a plane project for all the wrong reasons. I really believe the only good reason to build a plane is the joy of building along with a personal need for a large project. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 12:48 PM 9/27/2007, you wrote: >You got it Paul, Thanks. > >I agree that renting will always be cheaper. I guess that I have >taken this thread out of its original topic into something different. > >You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my >project because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with >money. For me, labor is anything that people do for money but don't >necessarily enjoy it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a >year of work than when I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment >keeps growing it might become an addiction. I'm keeping an eye on >myself, don't want to end up in a 12 step recovery program from >airplane builders anonymous. > >You are right that those details you have mentioned (seats, paints) >can add up and they are easy to underestimate. > >However, Scott Laughlin plane came under 20K if I remember correctly. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL Plans >Miami, Florida > >Paul Mulwitz wrote: > >Hi William, > >One thing you are obviously missing is labor. You are probably >planning on spending 5 or 10 years of your life building your >plane. You may not want to count that as monetary value, but even if >it doesn't cost you cash it does cost you years you could be doing >something else. > >You may also be missing little things like wheels and tires which are >around $2000. If you plan to use paint on your plane that is >probably another thousand or so. And then there are seats. Lets not >forget all the tools you will need. Do you have welding >equipment? How about paint gun and compressor? Do you need to pay >taxes to your state and/or local government? Also, the original >poster was in Canada so the money exchange rates might come into play. > >I am not suggesting scratch building is a bad idea. I chose standard >kit approach myself, but either choice has merit. > >The one thing I think nobody has mentioned in this incredibly long >discussion is the simple truth that renting airplanes is A LOT LESS >EXPENSIVE than owning them. Once you are flying you probably want to >have insurance and hangar or tie-down expenses. You also face fuel, >maintenance, and countless other expenses while flying your plane. > >Years ago it took over 200 hours of flying per year to justify, from >a financial perspective, owning your own plane instead of renting >one. This is way beyond the typical recreational pilot's flying per year. > >Like other posters, I think it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE to take the >conventional route to flight training and rent your plane from an >existing source rather than building your own airplane. If you must >have your own airplane it would be a lot less expensive to buy an old >Champ, Cub, C-150, Cherokee 140, or similar 60 year old plane than to >build your own new plane. That would also give you a plane to fly >now instead of a chance of having one to fly some ten years in the future. > >I believe the only reasonable justification for building a plane is >that you want to enjoy building a plane. Nothing else will give >enough motivation to get you to complete such a tremendous task. > >Paul >XL fuselage >Camas, WA ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:14 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? William, Ditto.you can build a Pietenpol for around $10k. You can also buy them for around the same, plus they are easy to fly. I also think that 30k is way high. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Dominguez Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to get into a contest here. My project will take whatever it will take. I just want to understand where I have it wrong in my estimate if any. I believe you have better reason than the ones you have provide so far but you have not giving me these reasons and I would like to know them. In other words, I want to know what is your basis to state that it wont come for less than 30K. If you don't mind, I want to know your reasons and not just "this is the way it is". Feel free to answer me off list if you wish. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida n85ae wrote: Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's nothing for me to win here. I'm ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:20 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Thanks. As Paul also said, is all the little things. The devil is always in the details. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them something, so I just say uh-huh. :) What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane. Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. Since you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing. If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and 4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things. I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same point a kit builder starts from on day 1. Best Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:28 PM PST US From: "Russell J." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? You got it Paul, Thanks. You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me, labor is anything that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a year of work than when I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment keeps growing it might become an addiction. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida +++++++++++++++++++ Build for the enjoyment, (beats vegetating on the couch in front of the TV) if you fly it that's great, if not it makes a terrific decoration to hang from the shop rafters. Russell J. do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:56 PM PST US From: "Herb Heaton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Bill, I have to agree with you. I'm at $10,000 for the entire airframe including the turbo Subaru and tools. I still have to buy the instruments and radio, but that shouldn't be more than $5,000. I think plans building is much cheaper than any other method as long as you are willing to scrounge for material and willing to put in a lot of time making what ever you need. Besides, it is very satisfying to know you made every part in the plane with your own hands. Herb Heaton Zodiac 601XL Plans Colorado Springs, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation. I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K. That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding 12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for instrumentation we are talking about 24K. Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, and his numbers where way under my estimate. Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend overestimate the cost of scratch building. I believe the answer is somewhere in between. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida n85ae wrote: I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K. To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice. Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not smart. You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok pilot on your own. Probably http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:31 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Jeff, that's the way I feel also, so I say again" go for it" and find our for himself . Ijust want to know does he want the 150.00 used prop or the 1500.00 new Prince P- TIP the good brakes or the so,so ones The 150.00 hand held or the1000.00 I-Com the regular exhaust pipes or the custom built,tuned ,cermaic coated ,the painted engine frame,or the powder coated one and the list goes on and on.... again I say it, and I mean it The best of luck to you both. By the way ,if you want talk to some one that can tell you every thing,and any thing, that you want to know about scratch builbing get Larry Mc farland to give some in put. To me he knows alot, there there are more people on here that can give you the correct info, he has helped me greatly , I'am not a scratch builder,but he is go on his web site and look at his plane,and his work., that's a airplane.. Joe N101HD 601 XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? > > Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's > nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build > one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you > spent. :) > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136831#136831 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:01 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Exactly right! If you're not building because you love the process and just want to fly, you may never get it done. I took 5-1/2 years for my HDS and it was the sweetest build time I'll ever have spent. You're also correct about the empty workshop syndrome. I've built recumbent bikes since and now look forward to the next serious project. The HDS is a joy to fly and I seem never to get past being in test and evaluation mode. I'm still learning about seasonal flight characteristics and feel like a kid let loose with a fabulous toy that never gets boring. Hang in there William! Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Russell J. wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as > a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? > You got it Paul, Thanks. > You are right, I'm not considering the labor I'm putting in my project > because I enjoy doing it and I'm not paying for it with money. For me, > labor is anything that people do for money but don't necessarily enjoy > it. I'm enjoying this project more now after a year of work than when > I started. I'm afraid that if the enjoyment keeps growing it might > become an addiction. > > William Dominguez > Zodiac 601XL Plans > Miami, Florida ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:36 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Jusr saw a Advid Flyer on Barnstomers, Yellow,Folding wingc (one pin) trailer incl. beatiful job 19,500 Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? > > I agree with Jeff. Too many homebuilts are started and never finished. > Find someone to help you find a local plane or rent and learn to fly > first. Learning to fly and building a plane is a too big of a job to do > without a lot of help. If you don't have a pilot certificate, you can > fly-off the test hours, when you learn to fly in your own homebuilt, you > or someone will likely spend a lot of time getting the bugs out of the > airplane - making it fly straight, engine run correct and so forth. Get > some flying experience before you try to do this on your own. > > When I became interested in flying, about 20 years ago, I was looking for > the least expensive way to get into the air. I went around the circle: > Build a plane, buy a unfinished homebuilt, get a used SpamCan, Build, Buy, > Certified, build, buy, certified... lets see, Zenith, Vans, kitfox, > Cessna, piper...... > > I looked at a lot of homebuilts and noted that lots of homebuilts never > get completed, or never get flown much. Fact is, saw a email today on the > kitfox list for a homebuilt completed in 1994 and only 40 hours of total > time; must not have liked it. > > In '97, I finally bought a '57 C172 for $19,500, finished private pilot, > instrument rating, Comm, CFI-I, ME, A&P... I'm convinced that I can fly > and own that old C172 cheaper than any homebuilt, LSA, Challenger, and > when I was ready to move up to a faster plane, I sold it for $25,000. > Burned 87 unleaded, found an A&P to supervise maintenance, We could > actually go somewhere, fly in the clouds, the whole shootin-match. > > I'm currently flying the test hours off a fellow's ASAP Chanook+2 (UL > style LSA). Its cold and windy, not very fast, burns 100LL or 92UL. > Doesn't have adjustable trim, VFR-day-only, doesn't carry two fat people > very well, and probably cost as much as a 50's model c172. > > So if you are just starting out, rent at least up to solo, then buy an old > spam can (C172, PA28...), and sell the spam can when your are ready to buy > an engine for your homebuilt. > > Mitch - considering a CH701 as an LSA... > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:11 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Toe Brake Redesign for 601 HDS We have redesigned the toe brakes of our 601 HDS so that they become much more effective. Details are shown on the page http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/toe_brakes.html As a result, the plane is easily stopped, and the brakes hold the plane even under a full power runup. The latter is needed when departing from a high density altitude airport with relatively short runway. On the other hand, the change has been so made that it still is impossible to lock up the wheels on dry pavement. Happy flying, Klaus -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:11 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? I have recently started scratch building a Ch 701. In australia 6061T6 is expensive but all the alloy for the project will cost less than $3500 aus. plus main gear leg $400. I started halfway throught August 2007 and work week nights approx 2-2.5 hrs most nights. I have all wing ribs, nose ribs, finished, main spar cut marker up and drilled, stab and elevator spar cut and bent, rudder upright cut and bent, wing rear pieces made. I expect to have it finished with a S/H 912 80hp Rotax for approx $20000 aus. a ch701 fuse kit landed in Australia is over $25000aus. I own a CH701 which I rebuilt and re engined with a S/H 912 80hp after a GSC propellor Failure. I will be upgrading the 912 by fitting 912extra pistons $1000 aus and hope to get 90 plus HP for same weight. Graeme Cairns From: "n85ae" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:07 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? > > My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them > something, so I just say uh-huh. :) > > What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane. > Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. > Since > you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my > best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing. > > If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would > have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and > 4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things. > > I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your > own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have > a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year > forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same > point a kit builder starts from on day 1. > > Best Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136855#136855 > > > -- > 27/09/2007 5:00 PM > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:36 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith-List: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Well you guys made me do it. I have put off adding up my list of expenses to build my 701 for a long time now. The wife is at work so I can bring in from the shop, the 2" thick folder of invoices I have gathered up over the last six years, and add them up. I was shooting for something in the $35,000.00 range when I started this project. This 701 is a pre-SP aircraft, so I have spent a fair amount of money to bring it as close as I can to the new SP. Bought the parts from Zenith for about $1,500.00 with shipping , this is included in the supplies cost. This is certainly not a basic aircraft, if I wanted it, I bought it, but I shopped for a good price. Had to replace a few parts I messed up, that is included in the supplies cost. My 701 is completed with just painting to go. The kit was $13,135.00 The FWF $16,000.00 SkyShops 912ULS The inst. panel $5,700.00 EIS/steam gages/ Valcom radio/GTX320A transponder/Intercom Paint $900.00 Supplies $4,000.00 This includes all the electrical wires, fuel lines ( all hard plumbed with A&N fittings), cables/turnbuckles and lighting. Also alodine, alumaprep and primer for all of the interior parts. This brings me to about $39,735.00. Just for the airplane. I spent about $1,200.00 for tools related just to the airplane. If you were to scratch build this same airplane I would guess you could save about $6,000.00. Everything else I would still need to build this aircraft. Mark Sherman 701/912ULS Galt, CA Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:01 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? ...just read about someone who estimated their completed FWB at about $5k. =0A=0Ado not archive=0A =0ADave Downey=0A Harleysville (SE) PA=0A 100 HP Corvair=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: William Dominguez =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, Septem ber 27, 2007 11:53:31 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?=0A=0AHow much would you estimate the airframe of a scratch =0Abuilt 601XL could cost, including extra material t o cover for mistakes? =0A=0AWilliam Dominguez=0AZodiac 601XL Plans=0AMiami Florida=0Ahttp://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com=0A=0An85ae Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense All- Yes, it is possible to build a Zenith for under $30K if you have a basic panel and you never make a mistake.The last thing I wanted to do was dissuade anyone from building, but I do want people to understand that homebuilding isn't a walk in the park. I dare any builder to say this is not good advice! My main point was, build costs were not less than the cost of an overhaul. When I was part owner of a C-172, we upgraded to an Air Plains "Superhawk" conversion with a factory new O-360. $23K for everything. 'Nuff said. Good building! Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "Ron Lendon" Here is what I have so far. Rudder, Stab and Elevator, Ailerons, Flaps, Center Spar, all wing ribs and spars, one left wing ready to store. The material is in with the Shop Supplies. Avionics 1090.96 Books 124.11 DVD's 80 Electrical 274.7 Empennage 261.05 Engine 2844.68 Facilities 2684.8 Miscellaneous 708.1 Planning 395 Shop Supplies 4338.21 Subscriptions 70 Tools 4210.8 Wings 2348.12 TOTAL 19430.53 TAXES 474.75 All and all it's more than my flight training cost with the 3 instructors and rental aircraft. I soled 3 times, (once for each instructor), getting my PPL. With all the money spend so far I only have half of an airplane built. But I have to tell you, Im having a lot of fun. The cost has been spread out over two years so far, and I still need radio and plan on using the Dynon 180 in the panel. do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136927#136927 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:04 PM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Zenith-List: BRS YouTube video Hey, I lost that link to the video someone posted about the Trike taking off as the BRS deployed, can someone please repost it for me. Thanks ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:25 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: BRS YouTube video Since we are talking about chutes. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PX7G0u0yI_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PX7G0u0yI) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.