Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:37 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (Dave Johnson)
2. 06:39 AM - Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... (Scott Laughlin)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... (DaveG601XL)
4. 06:52 AM - CH-601-HD Resale Value Question (Darryl West)
5. 07:23 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Gig Giacona)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Southern Reflections)
7. 07:47 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (Southern Reflections)
8. 08:04 AM - Re: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question (Southern Reflections)
9. 09:48 AM - Re: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question (robert stone)
10. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification (Gary Boothe)
11. 11:33 AM - posting to threads (haven)
12. 03:55 PM - Re: Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... (Bill Naumuk)
13. 04:11 PM - Re: will definitely need those back seats now (Rob St Denis)
14. 06:29 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Ron Lendon)
15. 08:15 PM - Re: will definitely need those back seats now (leinad)
16. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
17. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification (Gary Boothe)
18. 10:23 PM - Re: will definitely need those back seats now (hansriet)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith building expense |
Everyone seems to be stressing the cost of building, what about the
benefits? (think positively folks!).
At the end of the project you have an aeroplane that must be worth
something, here in the UK kit-built aeroplanes sell for about the cost
of the kit. Also what is the value of what you have learned during the
build?
Dave Johnson
601XL from a CZAW kit
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:05 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense
All-
Yes, it is possible to build a Zenith for under $30K if you have
a basic panel and you never make a mistake.The last thing I wanted to do
was dissuade anyone from building, but I do want people to understand
that homebuilding isn't a walk in the park. I dare any builder to say
this is not good advice!
My main point was, build costs were not less than the cost of an
overhaul. When I was part owner of a C-172, we upgraded to an Air Plains
"Superhawk" conversion with a factory new O-360. $23K for everything.
'Nuff said.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
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| Subject: | Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... |
Hi guys:
Scott Laughlin here. I've been reading all the text about building, cost a
nd BRS from the digest version. I haven't posted anything to my website la
tely so first here's an update. The airplane is finished. I had the FAA c
ome out to take a look. It took them six weeks to get around to it even th
ough they are only 20 miles away. The guy made me re-do all of my electric
al wiring and safety wires so I've been working on that. With the airplane
being at the hangar I can't fiddle with it in the evenings anymore and tha
t is a real shame. I get about four hours each weekend to work on it. I'
m just about ready for another inspection and hopefully first flight.
Build-to-learn-to-fly: That is me. I took my first lesson in a pitiful Ch
erokee rental. The seat didn't adjust right and I was wondering the entire
flight what else didn't work. I can build something and maintain it well
and not "hope" someone else didn't neglect something in a rental that I'm t
rusting my life with. I started building soon after that first flight. I'
ve done most of my training in a Fight Design CT. An $80,000 toy-of-an-air
plane. I haven't finished all my training hours so I plan to finish them i
n my own airplane. First flight will be by an experienced pilot - a retire
d SR71 pilot that flies a lot and has test-flown many aircraft. He charges
$30 an hour for this service.
BRS: The first time I heard of a BRS it made sense to me. I started build
ing an airplane because the BRS was available. It is a no-brainer to me an
d I have one installed on my 601XL. I'm afraid of heights so it gives me g
reat piece of mind. Plus the rocket is very cool.
Cost: I have under $20K in my airplane and I have every receipt to prove i
t. Even the little bits and pieces. I'm a real scrounger though so don't
try this at home. It's like beer money when you spread it over 5 years (an
d don't drink). I haven't missed it and it hasn't put a strain on the fami
ly finances.
Plans-building: I
must make things. It is who I am. I have a deep desire to continually
create. This started when I was 2 years old. My mother has a picture of m
e in a diaper at 2-years-old with a screwdriver standing over a lawn mower.
I LOVE to build things and see how things work. If you are not insane li
ke this, then buy a kit or a pre-built airplane.
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Search "Experimental 601" on Youtube.com to see some of my latest videos.
_________________________________________________________________
News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!
http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... |
Scott,
I have followed your build with much interest. Thanks for sharing. I am wondering
about your comment that the FAA is making you re-do all of your electrical
wiring. I am just starting the wiring phase and that concerns me. What was
the major FAA gripe that we here can learn from?
Thanks and good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136975#136975
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| Subject: | CH-601-HD Resale Value Question |
Hi Folks,
I am thinking about selling my Zenair CH-601-HD located at Springbank (near
Calgary, Alberta, Canada).
Built (by me) in 1995 from a kit, but only 340 hours of operating time so
far.
It has Rotax 912, basic VFR, well maintained, runs nice.
First 3 pictures here:
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/Pictures/Airplanes/airplanes.htm
I tried searching used airplane sites online (aerotrader, etc) but did not
find any of this design.
Any ideas on what typical pricing should be?
Thanks,
Darryl West
rdwest@shaw.ca
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
If I were you I'd spend some of the time after completion to look for another place
to live.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
psm(at)ATT.NET wrote:
> Hi William,
>
> However, the weather here is nearly solid IMC for 6 months of the year.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136985#136985
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
Look,s to be a good list. What kind of engine did you get for $2844.68 ?
N101HD 601XL?RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into
aviation?
>
> Here is what I have so far. Rudder, Stab and Elevator, Ailerons, Flaps,
> Center Spar, all wing ribs and spars, one left wing ready to store. The
> material is in with the Shop Supplies.
>
> Avionics 1090.96
> Books 124.11
> DVD's 80
> Electrical 274.7
> Empennage 261.05
> Engine 2844.68
> Facilities 2684.8
> Miscellaneous 708.1
> Planning 395
> Shop Supplies 4338.21
> Subscriptions 70
> Tools 4210.8
> Wings 2348.12
> TOTAL 19430.53
> TAXES 474.75
>
>
> All and all it's more than my flight training cost with the 3 instructors
> and rental aircraft. I soled 3 times, (once for each instructor), getting
> my PPL.
>
> With all the money spend so far I only have half of an airplane built.
> But I have to tell you, Im having a lot of fun. The cost has been spread
> out over two years so far, and I still need radio and plan on using the
> Dynon 180 in the panel.
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
> Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
> http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136927#136927
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith building expense |
Well Mate,building a airplane is a good thing ,but you must have a true
pict. of what it's going to cost. Cost is cost and all it ever does is
go up,.over here .then there is the human factor to want a better this
or that. I always wanted to build a" proper " aero plane, and to build a
proper one, I think it's better to have a better this or that than to
have a bad learning experinence on take-off or at 3ooo ft.
----- Original Message ----- Have a good day. N101HD 601 XL/RAM
From: Dave Johnson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense
Everyone seems to be stressing the cost of building, what about the
benefits? (think positively folks!).
At the end of the project you have an aeroplane that must be worth
something, here in the UK kit-built aeroplanes sell for about the cost
of the kit. Also what is the value of what you have learned during the
build?
Dave Johnson
601XL from a CZAW kit
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:05 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense
All-
Yes, it is possible to build a Zenith for under $30K if you
have a basic panel and you never make a mistake.The last thing I wanted
to do was dissuade anyone from building, but I do want people to
understand that homebuilding isn't a walk in the park. I dare any
builder to say this is not good advice!
My main point was, build costs were not less than the cost of
an overhaul. When I was part owner of a C-172, we upgraded to an Air
Plains "Superhawk" conversion with a factory new O-360. $23K for
everything. 'Nuff said.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question |
Go to" Barnstormers "you will see high prices on some,and some cheep
prices on others Zenith's It depends market,and the economy I wouldn't
sell any thing right now, unless you want to give it away ! Now is time
to buy,not sell. There are some good deal out there ( low prices)It's
better to buy rather than build right now,unless someone just want 's
to build. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: Darryl West
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question
Hi Folks,
I am thinking about selling my Zenair CH-601-HD located at Springbank
(near Calgary, Alberta, Canada).
Built (by me) in 1995 from a kit, but only 340 hours of operating time
so far.
It has Rotax 912, basic VFR, well maintained, runs nice.
First 3 pictures here:
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/Pictures/Airplanes/airplanes.htm
I tried searching used airplane sites online (aerotrader, etc) but did
not find any of this design.
Any ideas on what typical pricing should be?
Thanks,
Darryl West
rdwest@shaw.ca
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question |
Darryl,
Try using Barnstormers at:
http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?PHPSESSID=2ef94a86daa861b6da0186831
53522ef
this is the largest on line market place I know of. You can not only
get an idea what to ask for your aircraft but you can post an add and
it's all free of charge.
Bob (Tracy) Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: Darryl West
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: CH-601-HD Resale Value Question
Hi Folks,
I am thinking about selling my Zenair CH-601-HD located at Springbank
(near Calgary, Alberta, Canada).
Built (by me) in 1995 from a kit, but only 340 hours of operating time
so far.
It has Rotax 912, basic VFR, well maintained, runs nice.
First 3 pictures here:
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/Pictures/Airplanes/airplanes.htm
I tried searching used airplane sites online (aerotrader, etc) but did
not find any of this design.
Any ideas on what typical pricing should be?
Thanks,
Darryl West
rdwest@shaw.ca
http://members.shaw.ca/rdwest/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: avex rivet question clarification |
To Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,
The grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be
buried in enough material to never vibrate out.
No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be the
same. The nub merely pulls through the rivet until it bottoms out and
breaks. If you use the right size, or too long, the dimension is still the
same. Obviously this is unlike a driven rivet that will flatten and spread
out.
You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed out,
you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to obey
ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: avex rivet question clarification
In so far as the grip length of pop rivets has came up again I will add my
two cents. Check the way rivet grip length are given in all manuals. For a
button heador dome head rivet the grip length is from the BOTTOM of the
head. Now on a countersunk rivet the grip length is from the TOP of the
head. David and all others that I have seen on this site list Avex's grip
length for the countersunk rivets. Zenith has chose to take a countersunk
rivet and form the into a button head but does not change the grip lenth.
Has anyone who is in the know taken a countersunk rivet and installed it
through a max. grip material and checked the formed end? Will the rivet be
formed OK? Jerry of GA
Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 11
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| Subject: | posting to threads |
Why are there 6 threads with the name "Building as a way for a non-pilot to get
into aviation?". It is extremely hard to follow the thread with post all over
the place.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137031#137031
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update, etc... |
Scott-
I've seen your taxi tests through your development. If I tried that
(And I live out in the woods) I'd be in jail as soon as I yelled
"Clear"! Either that or I wouldn't have any room to move in the shop
with all the "Helpers". Probably the latter.
You have the best neighbors in the world for a homebuilder. Always
wanted to know who the poor guy was who's truck was right in the prop
blast during your first engine run.
If it was yours, did you add in the cost of a new paint job for the
truck?
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Laughlin
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:32 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Building as a way......+BRS + Cost, Update,
etc...
Hi guys:
Scott Laughlin here. I've been reading all the text about building,
cost and BRS from the digest version. I haven't posted anything to my
website lately so first here's an update. The airplane is finished. I
had the FAA come out to take a look. It took them six weeks to get
around to it even though they are only 20 miles away. The guy made me
re-do all of my electrical wiring and safety wires so I've been working
on that. With the airplane being at the hangar I can't fiddle with it
in the evenings anymore and that is a real shame. I get about four
hours each weekend to work on it. I'm just about ready for another
inspection and hopefully first flight.
Build-to-learn-to-fly: That is me. I took my first lesson in a
pitiful Cherokee rental. The seat didn't adjust right and I was
wondering the entire flight what else didn't work. I can build
something and maintain it well and not "hope" someone else didn't
neglect something in a rental that I'm trusting my life with. I started
building soon after that first flight. I've done most of my training in
a Fight Design CT. An $80,000 toy-of-an-airplane. I haven't finished
all my training hours so I plan to finish them in my own airplane.
First flight will be by an experienced pilot - a retired SR71 pilot that
flies a lot and has test-flown many aircraft. He charges $30 an hour
for this service.
BRS: The first time I heard of a BRS it made sense to me. I started
building an airplane because the BRS was available. It is a no-brainer
to me and I have one installed on my 601XL. I'm afraid of heights so it
gives me great piece of mind. Plus the rocket is very cool.
Cost: I have under $20K in my airplane and I have every receipt to
prove it. Even the little bits and pieces. I'm a real scrounger though
so don't try this at home. It's like beer money when you spread it over
5 years (and don't drink). I haven't missed it and it hasn't put a
strain on the family finances.
Plans-building: I must make things. It is who I am. I have a deep
desire to continually create. This started when I was 2 years old. My
mother has a picture of me in a diaper at 2-years-old with a screwdriver
standing over a lawn mower. I LOVE to build things and see how things
work. If you are not insane like this, then buy a kit or a pre-built
airplane.
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Search "Experimental 601" on Youtube.com to see some of my latest
videos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com.
Check it out!
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| Subject: | Re: will definitely need those back seats now |
So, we went and got the ultrasound today, and seems as tho we're having
twins!
http://gallery.iahu.ca/main.php/v/lisandrob/Babynumber1/ultrasound.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=3
I am so glad i went with the 640 now ha!
Rob
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| Subject: | Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? |
The engine is a corvair, still need pistons and cylinders and all the other HW.
Have the crank and the heads ready for flight with the WW gold hub and ring
gear.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137080#137080
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| Subject: | Re: will definitely need those back seats now |
Rob,
Glad you got the family building part done in hurry! Now back to building the
640! :o)
Congratulations again.
Dan Dempsey
Do not archive
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137088#137088
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| Subject: | Re: avex rivet question clarification |
In a message dated 9/28/2007 1:25:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gboothe5@comcast.net writes:
To Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,
The grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be
buried in enough material to never vibrate out.
I think this is the question, how do you inspect this requirement?
You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed out,
you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to obey
ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.
No correction for this head change has been make with regard to the grip
length! What about the fact the ZAC and Avex give the same max. grip length even
though they reduced the grip length by the thickness of the rivet head?
No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be the
same.
I understand the inside dimension does not change. The length of the rivet
also does not change so if you form the head down (Dome the head) the length
of the rivet grip length is reduced and Avex set the max. grip based on the
rivet being used as a countersunk rivet. Thus the "nubbed" end is not buried.
Take a .250 thickness section of material and install a 1/8 rivet. Look at the
"nubbed", think it
will not vibrate out?
You had an attached file on your e-mail that I could not open, what was it?
Jerry of GA
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: avex rivet question clarification |
Jerry,
I did not attach anything. I merely hit "REPLY."
My opinion is that you are over thinking this. You seem to be concerned
about losing .025 from the change from a countersink to the modified head;
when the rivets are measured in fractions of an inch. Here is a quote from
Mr. Heintz:
".One other very determinant factor for selecting the Avex rivets is that
they are "grip" insensitive. The standard Avex rivets will join from grip 0
to grip 1/4" (6 mm) with the same rivet."
Why would you try to use an 1/8" rivet if you were concerned about its
length? Let common sense prevail.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: avex rivet question clarification
In a message dated 9/28/2007 1:25:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gboothe5@comcast.net writes:
To Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,
The grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be
buried in enough material to never vibrate out.
I think this is the question, how do you inspect this requirement?
You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed out,
you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to obey
ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.
No correction for this head change has been make with regard to the grip
length! What about the fact the ZAC and Avex give the same max. grip length
even though they reduced the grip length by the thickness of the rivet head?
No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be the
same.
I understand the inside dimension does not change. The length of the rivet
also does not change so if you form the head down (Dome the head) the length
of the rivet grip length is reduced and Avex set the max. grip based on the
rivet being used as a countersunk rivet. Thus the "nubbed" end is not
buried. Take a .250 thickness section of material and install a 1/8 rivet.
Look at the "nubbed", think it
will not vibrate out?
You had an attached file on your e-mail that I could not open, what was it?
Jerry of GA
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| Subject: | Re: will definitely need those back seats now |
Congrats.
Great names by the way; Baby A and baby B.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137099#137099
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