---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/03/07: 67 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question (GLENN JOHNSON) 2. 07:32 AM - Re: Getting Rid of Non-Skid Tape (ashontz) 3. 07:38 AM - Re: Rivnuts instead of self-tapping screws on canopy hoops? (victor verdev) 4. 07:40 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 5. 08:21 AM - Re: Rivnuts instead of self-tapping screws on canopy hoops? (John Bolding) 6. 08:25 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (n85ae) 7. 08:33 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 8. 08:36 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure (macleod@eagle.ca) 9. 08:47 AM - Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question (Tim Juhl) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 11. 09:25 AM - Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question (swater6) 12. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: TIP TAP (japhillipsga@aol.com) 13. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (William Dominguez) 14. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Craig Payne) 15. 10:31 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 16. 10:37 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 17. 10:43 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 18. 10:44 AM - Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? (Juan Vega) 19. 10:50 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 20. 10:54 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage Component Crate Length? (PatrickW) 21. 11:34 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (n85ae) 22. 11:39 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 23. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (William Dominguez) 24. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 25. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (William Dominguez) 26. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 27. 11:51 AM - Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 28. 11:58 AM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 29. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 30. 12:27 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 31. 01:06 PM - Zenith building expense (Randy L. Thwing) 32. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 33. 01:14 PM - Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? (DaveG601XL) 34. 01:51 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (n85ae) 35. 02:40 PM - weight and Balance (Juan Vega) 36. 02:40 PM - weight and Balance (Juan Vega) 37. 02:49 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (Paul Mulwitz) 38. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? (Juan Vega) 39. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Bill Naumuk) 40. 03:26 PM - Re: weight and Balance (LHusky@aol.com) 41. 03:39 PM - Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure (Peter Chapman) 42. 04:42 PM - Re: weight and Balance (Craig Payne) 43. 04:42 PM - About True Track Autopilot (Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito) 44. 04:49 PM - Re: About True Track Autopilot (Craig Payne) 45. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (Randy L. Thwing) 46. 05:39 PM - Sorry Guys it is another long winded response (ZodieRocket) 47. 05:42 PM - Stratus Subaru seasonal mixture (LarryMcFarland) 48. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 49. 06:09 PM - Re: Stratus Subaru seasonal mixture (ZodieRocket) 50. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Robin Bellach) 51. 06:44 PM - Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response (kmccune) 52. 06:55 PM - Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure (John M. Goodings) 53. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 54. 07:12 PM - Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response (Kevin L. Rupert) 55. 07:19 PM - Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response (Paul Mulwitz) 56. 07:20 PM - Re: Heavy left wing7 (John M. Goodings) 57. 07:22 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 58. 07:25 PM - Re: Zenith building expense (ashontz) 59. 07:28 PM - Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure (Edward Micallef) 60. 07:41 PM - Kit vs plans and costs. (ZodieRocket) 61. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Heavy left wing7 (Craig Payne) 62. 08:36 PM - Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? (PatrickW) 63. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: Heavy left wing7 (Leo Gates) 64. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 65. 09:45 PM - Re: About True Track Autopilot (N601RT) 66. 10:15 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zenith building expense (Robert Loer) 67. 10:31 PM - Re: Re: Heavy left wing7 (Robert Loer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:30 AM PST US From: GLENN JOHNSON Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question JUST A NOTE ON WHAT HAPPEN TO ME. I FOLLOWED THE MEASUREMENTS AND I BELIEV E THAT I HAVE TOO MUCH TRIMMED BACK. I AM GETTING READY TO FIT THE WINGS S O I WILL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH. GLENN> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question> From: juhl@avci.net> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:06:32 -0700> To: zenith-list@matron The drawings give the measurements for marking and cutting the wing skins at their inboard edges. I'm not that far along but is there a reason you ch ose not to use those measurements?> > Tim> > --------> ______________> CFII > Champ L16A flying> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A> Working on wings> > > > > Re ad this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p ======================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Getting Rid of Non-Skid Tape From: "ashontz" Heat gun sounds good. If you have to scrape, use a plastic scraper, maybe a windshield ice scraper. You may be able to soak it with acetone under the edges too. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137830#137830 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:49 AM PST US From: victor verdev Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts instead of self-tapping screws on canopy hoops? No washers under rivet heads. --- John Bolding wrote: > Did that on my RV3 about 35 yrs/2000 hrs ago, no > cracks so far but testing continues. > > LOW&SLO John > > > > >At Oshkosh this year I noticed the factory > assembled 601XL in the Sports > Planes area had soft aluminum pop rivets holding > the canopy to the tubes and > the side frames. > > Thanks, I had considered that approach too but > didn't want to be the first > guy to try it ;-) > > Did they use any washers under the head of the > rivets? > > -- Craig > > do not archive > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137835#137835 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:54 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts instead of self-tapping screws on canopy hoops? Actually I used countersunk alum pops (and countersunk the canopy) as there was an epoxy /glass canopy skirt that went on top of the rivets and I didn't want any bumps, those kind of things hold little importance now while building the 701, the whole thing is a bump. John ----- Original Message ----- From: victor verdev To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts instead of self-tapping screws on canopy hoops? No washers under rivet heads. --- John Bolding wrote: > Did that on my RV3 about 35 yrs/2000 hrs ago, no > cracks so far but testing continues. > > LOW&SLO John > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:27 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "n85ae" Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough. Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically. Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru, which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead stick landing .... Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137844#137844 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:09 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" I have gotten real, I built a hefty low-tolerance 8 foot bending brake with a 1/8 inch radius bend, made all the forms, and built a rudder, an elevator, a stabilizer, and wing for about $1,200 with rivets from Zenith and 6061-T6 from aircraft spruce. And every part is well within tolerances per Zenith. As far as an engine goes, go talk to William Wynne about Corvairs, they're excellent engines. Don't get pissed at me you're struggling with a $20,000 kit less engine. LOL do not archive n85ae wrote: > Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really > "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, > Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. > > If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the > miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus > it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into > becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough. > > Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically. > > Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton > with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching > a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru, > which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of > wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead > stick landing .... > > Jeff -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137847#137847 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure From: macleod@eagle.ca Edward: I had a similar problem with my 912S a few years ago. At first the pressure would jump from 50 psi to 90 psi stay there for a few seconds then drop back to 50. A few hours later it would go to 90psi and stay there. The problem turned out to be a loose connection on the sender. NOTE: when I first checked the sender connections they seemed ok, later after I disconnected the sender and did a good reconnection the problem went away. Mike 601XL waiting for Rotax FWF >The engine is a Rotax 912 UL # 4401716... Lately I have noticed that the oil > pressure is higher than what is specified in the manual. It is supposed > to be 22-72 psi , when I am turning about 5000 rpm it fluctuate over > 80psi. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question From: "Tim Juhl" Very interesting! Dave and Glenn, I for one would like to know what you end up with once the wings are installed. For now I think I'll mark the factory cut lines but leave a little extra. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137853#137853 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:10 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around 25,000. In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question From: "swater6" Hi guys, I had to order a new top skin from Zenith because I put a wrinkle in one of mine while moving to a new house. The skins they supply now are precut both inboard and outboard and they matched the skin I had cut based on the plans measurements. So, I'm thinking that the measurements are good and they are confident in them since they are now precut. I am leaving the bottom skins cut a little larger until I mate to the fuselage just in case. As you know, you can always cut more or drill bigger but not the other way around... Scott PS. As of a week ago, both of my wings are now complete and setting in my rack. First holes drilled in the fuselage last weekend!!! Kind of a nice milestone!! -------- 601 XL kit Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137863#137863 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: TIP TAP From: japhillipsga@aol.com I went flying the Monday morning.?Cooler and clear. On climb out the CHT for number 4 head went up to about 330 degrees as is it's norm. I climbed up to 3500 feet and trimed up for max cruise. The Jab 3300 was percing along just fine and it is normal as well that after a brief period the CHTs all drop into the 270-290 degree range. That day number 4 head only reduced down to about 320 and held there. I kept peeking over at the gage and waiting for it to drop. After about three times as long as it should have taken to drop I reached over and tapped the gage and it immediately dropped to 285 degrees. Now I know why I received that covetous Repairman's Certificate !! I am a certified Aircraft Instrument Expert !? So my tip is always tap your gage when the output isn't what it should be. Like banging on the TV for better reception. Best regards, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300 120 hrs? -----Original Message----- From: Tim Juhl Sent: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:46 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing Skin to Fuselage Gap Question Very interesting! Dave and Glenn, I for one would like to know what you end up with once the wings are installed. For now I think I'll mark the factory cut lines but leave a little extra. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137853#137853 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:09 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense This topic is baaack! Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go. Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain. Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. Now, I'll just run for cover. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough. Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically. Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru, which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead stick landing .... Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137844#137844 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:10 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense To give you a lower bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine) for $7200: http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/ Now somebody will say "but it's composite". -- Craig ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about 7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700. Now if you consider those parts are identical to what would be shipped from Zenith, then that 'safety issue' is irrelavent. The next safety issue is the assembly process, in which case there is no difference between a scratch builder and a kit builder. Actually, if anything, the scratch builder may be a safer builder due to the skill set developed to actually make the parts to spec, giving the scratch builder an even better overall metalurgical best-practices understanding of the building process. Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: > I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around 25,000. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > > > Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month. > > > > > > > > > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137875#137875 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" Sweet!!! Love it! Thanks for the link. [quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]To give you a lower bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine) for $7200: http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/ (http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/) Now somebody will say "but it's composite". -- Craig > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137877#137877 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" I've rebuilt a lot of engines in my day. I don't think it'll be much more than that. Maybe $3,000. I'm certainly not going to skimp on safety. If I can rebuild a 4 cylinder outboard engine or a car engine for $500, I can't imagine a Corvair being that much more, they're just parts and they're readily available. About the only difference is some of the specialty items on it. [quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]This topic is baaack! Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go. Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain. Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. Now, I'll just run for cover. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137880#137880 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:39 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? if you follow the plans specs, they should align well. I am proud to say mine came out trimmed out. aileron and flap align nice. Check the flap stop is 4 to 5mm from trail edge. -----Original Message----- >From: Jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Oct 2, 2007 10:10 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? > > >Mine did not line up, not by a long shot. It was so far off (probably 20mm) the hingeless attachment was not possible. I got ZAC to send me wide hinges and and a doubler, and converted to hinged ailerons. > >Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J > > >"PatrickW" wrote: > >> >>Are the trailing edges of the Aileron and the Flap aligned with one another when both are in the "neutral" position...? >> >>I'm getting ready to drill the hingeless ailerons on my 601XL, and I've also got my flaps sitting there next to them, just to give it an "eyeball" check. >> >>The measurements seem to check, but it just doesn't look right.... >> >>Anybody with a completed wing that can give me a sanity check on the measurement between the trailing edge rivet line on the wing and the leading edge rivet line on the aileron? >> >>Is your entire trailing edge "one smooth line" across the ailerons and flaps...? >> >>Thanks! >> >>Patrick >>XL/Corvair >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137730#137730 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" I believe I see the secret to Williams 'success' in the background of one of the pix. Anyone else catch it? It's lime green. It's a drivable early 70s VW Beetle. He doesn't just build planes, he's been farting around with this type of stuff all his life I would guess. [quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]To give you a lower bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine) for $7200: http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/ (http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/) Now somebody will say "but it's composite". -- Craig > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137882#137882 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage Component Crate Length? From: "PatrickW" Crate shipped today. Shirley said it's 127" x 49" x 28" and weighs 357 lbs. 601XL fuselage, controls, and gear. Woo Hoo! PatrickW XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137883#137883 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "n85ae" I think mid thirties is the most realistic minimum. At least for anything that I would think about flying. :) Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137890#137890 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" n85ae wrote: > I think mid thirties is the most realistic minimum. At least for anything > that I would think about flying. :) > > Jeff Ok, I'll build you one and sell it to you for $35,000. Then we'll know it's nice and safe. LOL Price-wise, what makes it safe? Because it was purchased as a kit, even though 51% of the work was completed by some homebuilder of questionable talent. Or is it the $25,000 O-200 Lycoming engine from Aircraft Spruce? I'm just curious as to the logic? What if I was an A&P mechanic and I built the hull for $6,000 and rebuilt an O-200 I had laying around myself for another $3,000 for a total of $9,000. Would it be safe? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137891#137891 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:27 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense Yarde Metals is still cheaper than Aircraft Spruce and they pack the material very nicely. You will need to purchase 5 to 8 sheet at a time in order to take advantage of their better pricing. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about 7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700. Now if you consider those parts are identical to what would be shipped from Zenith, then that 'safety issue' is irrelavent. The next safety issue is the assembly process, in which case there is no difference between a scratch builder and a kit builder. Actually, if anything, the scratch builder may be a safer builder due to the skill set developed to actually make the parts to spec, giving the scratch builder an even better overall metalurgical best-practices understanding of the building process. Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: > I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around 25,000. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > > > Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month. > > > > > > > > > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137875#137875 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:35 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense All I have to say is good luck with your 5,000 build as almost every one here has said it is between 25 and 30 thousand to get a plane into the air. I never said scratch building was unsafe or some how a lesser aircraft. But you will find your 5,000 figure is going to grow to around 8 or 9 thousand and if you look at my spread sheet you will see that WW's parts are around 5,000 to do a safe conversion and the engine parts from clarks is 2,500.00 again to build a safe reliable engine conversion and that doesn't count the 150.00 nitrate or machine work. If you use falcon heads another 1,200 so just the FWF is around 8,800.00 not counting the cowling, carb, airbox etc. So I would say your #'s are off. I have built one and the numbers are what they are. In a message dated 10/3/2007 1:33:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about 7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:48 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense If you made all of the parts yourself then you can get it around 3,000. But if you buy all the parts from Clarks, WW and get your heads done by Falcon and you crank by Nitron, then you are talking about 6K to 7K. Excluding FWF. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida I've rebuilt a lot of engines in my day. I don't think it'll be much more than that. Maybe $3,000. I'm certainly not going to skimp on safety. If I can rebuild a 4 cylinder outboard engine or a car engine for $500, I can't imagine a Corvair being that much more, they're just parts and they're readily available. About the only difference is some of the specialty items on it. [quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]This topic is baaack! Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go. Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain. Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. Now, I'll just run for cover. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137880#137880 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:03 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense Just build it..... who care's what it costs. If you do it for 5,000 10,000 who cares as long as your happy with it. My numbers are based on what it cost's me to build one the way I want it built. You may choose to build one with less expensive things if so when your done send us a pic and a list of costs to help other builders build theirs cheaper. In a message dated 10/3/2007 2:40:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: Ok, I'll build you one and sell it to you for $35,000. Then we'll know it's nice and safe. LOL ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:57 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? Juan, Actually, I did follow the plans and specs very carefully. It turns out that the skins were not drilled correctly. See photos. The first one shows the alignment if I were to get the proper edge distance on the aileron skin. The second shows dots where the rivet holes in the aileron skin would have to be if I aligned the trailing edge with the flap. At the tip, I could get the proper overlap, but I suspect that "skewed" the aileron, somewhat. Therefore, I went with the "real" hinges. Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J Do not archive Juan Vega wrote: > >if you follow the plans specs, they should align well. I am proud to say mine came out trimmed out. aileron and flap align nice. Check the flap stop is 4 to 5mm from trail edge. > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Jaybannist@cs.com >>Sent: Oct 2, 2007 10:10 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? >> >> >>Mine did not line up, not by a long shot. It was so far off (probably 20mm) the hingeless attachment was not possible. I got ZAC to send me wide hinges and and a doubler, and converted to hinged ailerons. >> >>Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J >> >> >>"PatrickW" wrote: >> >>> >>>Are the trailing edges of the Aileron and the Flap aligned with one another when both are in the "neutral" position...? >>> >>>I'm getting ready to drill the hingeless ailerons on my 601XL, and I've also got my flaps sitting there next to them, just to give it an "eyeball" check. >>> >>>The measurements seem to check, but it just doesn't look right.... >>> >>>Anybody with a completed wing that can give me a sanity check on the measurement between the trailing edge rivet line on the wing and the leading edge rivet line on the aileron? >>> >>>Is your entire trailing edge "one smooth line" across the ailerons and flaps...? >>> >>>Thanks! >>> >>>Patrick >>>XL/Corvair >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137730#137730 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" Not to drag on, but just adding up what you have listed here, by your own account, looks more like 9,000 + 8,800 for fuselage and engine. Where's the extra $17,200? If you're not going ape with avionics, even by your own admission you should be under $20,000. Even so, I said $5,000 - $6,000 for fuselage, $10,000 total, that's a possibility for a bare bones plane, depending on how much of the engine I do myself, and I will do a lot. [quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]All I have to say is good luck with your 5,000 build as almost every one here has said it is between 25 and 30 thousand to get a plane into the air. I never said scratch building was unsafe or some how a lesser aircraft. But you will find your 5,000 figure is going to grow to around 8 or 9 thousand and if you look at my spread sheet you will see that WW's parts are around 5,000 to do a safe conversion and the engine parts from clarks is 2,500.00 again to build a safe reliable engine conversion and that doesn't count the 150.00 nitrate or machine work. If you use falcon heads another 1,200 so just the FWF is around 8,800.00 not counting the cowling, carb, airbox etc. So I would say your #'s are off. I have built one and the numbers are what they are. In a message dated 10/3/2007 1:33:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about 7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700. > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137900#137900 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:13 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense I said just the corvair FWF engine conversion was around 8,800 not counting the carb, airbox, or cowling. I said nothing about airframe. The avionics I use cost around 6,000 and as I said before I used a kit not scratch built but if you have never built an aircraft you will be surprised how the little things add up. like flap motors, trim servos, wheels, brake's hell a canopy is 600.00 + shipping ... If you are saying you can build just the airframe for 5,000 minus the expensive stuff I might agree with you but I still say that a well built 601 xl with a good reliable corvair conversion can't be done for under 25,000 If you do it great but you couldn't do it if you put in standard instruments and the proper parts for the engine. In a message dated 10/3/2007 2:59:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: Not to drag on, but just adding up what you have listed here, by your own account, looks more like 9,000 + 8,800 for fuselage and engine. Where's the extra $17,200? If you're not going ape with avionics, even by your own admission you should be under $20,000. Even so, I said $5,000 - $6,000 for fuselage, $10,000 total, that's a possibility for a bare bones plane, depending on how much of the engine I do myself, and I will do a lot. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" Looking at the list, I'd have to say I'll be making at least 50% of the stuff in lines 4 - 19. Most of the line items I would be interested in would be the internal engine parts. Still, I don't see heads listed on there, nor would I expect them to be. That being the case, why replace the jugs but not the heads. If anything it would be the other way around. If the heads are ok, I don't see any reason the jugs would need to be replaced. Hone them lightly, caliper them, if they look ok no need to spend another $350. Gasket set, $199? I just found a complete gasket set for $58. I'm not making this up: Nitrated street racing crank (should be good for a plane huh) $209. Brand new. No, it's not Clarks Corvair. SCAT CHEVY CAST CRANKSHAFTS High-quality cast-iron crankshaft designed to replace stock crankshaft on mildly built street engines. Crankshaft is nitride hardened for superior wear resistance. FITS 1967 Chevrolet Corvair Review this product Our Low Price: $209.99 Not trying to bust your stones, I'm just saying your numbers may be off. So we'll halves it, you may or may not have overpaid for some stuff and I may or may not have to replace more things than I would like to. do not archive Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: > I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around 25,000. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > > > Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month. > > > > > > > > > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137905#137905 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:53 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense Hello All: I recommend scrap building as the way to build for nearly free (except the engine). But it will be a long while before you fly. So in the meantime, start or join a flying club like ours and be a active pilot the entire time you build. http://www.eaa163.com/club/index.htm We currently have four memberships available. Buy in at $1000.00 Yearly dues $200.00 Fly at $45.00/wet tach time (we have no hobbs). Regards, Randy, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:14 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense You should really buy WW's conversion manual before you waste your money. We do use the heads that come off the engine but they need new guides put in the and anything less than what falcon does IMO shouldn't be in airplanes. The crank will need to be tapped for the safety shaft and nitrated so the cost for all the machine work is around 300.00 so whichever crank you use it will cost you the same because the 209 crank will need to be tapped unless you are doing that yourself. Look I build aircraft that anyone would feel safe in I don't cut corners and I don't risk lives to save a buck so build yours how you want but please do your homework first. This is my last post on this subject In a message dated 10/3/2007 3:28:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: Most of the line items I would be interested in would be the internal engine parts. Still, I don't see heads listed on there, nor would I expect them to be. That being the case, why replace the jugs but not the heads. If anything it would be the other way around. If the heads are ok, I don't see any reason the jugs would need to be replaced. Hone them lightly, caliper them, if they look ok no need to spend another $350 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? From: "DaveG601XL" Patrick, Although it is not a good viewpoint, here is a picture of mine. I have about 3-4mm of trailing edge difference when the aileron and flap are lined up. The aileron is the one that is a little short. In order to preserve the aileron rivet line edge distance I left it that way and pressed on. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done, engine next. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137908#137908 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rightwing_462.jpg ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "n85ae" I guess, you can get a really long string, and some soup cans for cheap and then you'll have a communication device as well. :) In fact you can do this for an intercom as well. I think mid-thirties is a reasonable minimum number for a builder to spend. I put an injected Continental in my Kitfox, and filled the panel with stuff by King and Garmin, I spent mid-sixties on it. I expect I will invest a similar amount in my 801 when it is done. I could have built the plane with a lot less, but I would have a lot less plane as well. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137915#137915 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:56 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Zenith-List: weight and Balance fellow builders, the day is getting close! I did my weight and Bal. and the plane came in at 767 empty weight with a usefull load of 553lbs. the CG is at 344, not bad. Where is every one coming in on the Wand B? Juan ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:57 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Zenith-List: weight and Balance fellow builders, the day is getting close! I did my weight and Bal. and the plane came in at 767 empty weight with a usefull load of 553lbs. the CG is at 344, not bad. Where is every one coming in on the Wand B? Juan ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:23 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense Hi Randy, What a great idea. It sounds like a wonderful excuse for me to go to Las Vegas and play poker along with flying the club airplane. I suppose you want me to have a medical certificate to fly the 172, though. Oh well, I guess I'll just finish my XL and fly it as a broken old man with Sport Pilot privileges. With any luck it will be ready to go in 6 months or so. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 01:05 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote: > >Hello All: > >I recommend scrap building as the way to build for nearly free (except the >engine). But it will be a long while before you fly. So in the meantime, >start or join a flying club like ours and be a active pilot the entire time >you build. > >http://www.eaa163.com/club/index.htm > >We currently have four memberships available. > >Buy in at $1000.00 >Yearly dues $200.00 >Fly at $45.00/wet tach time (we have no hobbs). > >Regards, > >Randy, Las Vegas > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:45 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? dave that llooks great. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: DaveG601XL >Sent: Oct 3, 2007 4:14 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? > > >Patrick, > >Although it is not a good viewpoint, here is a picture of mine. I have about 3-4mm of trailing edge difference when the aileron and flap are lined up. The aileron is the one that is a little short. In order to preserve the aileron rivet line edge distance I left it that way and pressed on. > >Good luck, > >-------- >David Gallagher >601 XL, tail and wings completed, >fueslage almost done, engine next. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137908#137908 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/rightwing_462.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:41 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense All- I agree absolutely with the other Bill. You can easily make your own Corvair parts if you have a Bridgeport and lathe at your disposal. When I was growing up, I had access to a full machine shop two steps out of the living room door. Now I don't. I could probably build an AirCorvair for less than $2K then, but that was then. Now I'm at 5K+ and counting. Feces occurs. The point I'm trying to make is this. The degree of "Scratchbuilding" you can pull off is dependent on the tools you have available to use. Some tools, such as "Daves Brake" will require little investment yet save you thousands. Investing in a full machine shop is another story. If you already have access, I agree, you can do it. Do not archive. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense If you made all of the parts yourself then you can get it around 3,000. But if you buy all the parts from Clarks, WW and get your heads done by Falcon and you crank by Nitron, then you are talking about 6K to 7K. Excluding FWF. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida ashontz wrote: I've rebuilt a lot of engines in my day. I don't think it'll be much more than that. Maybe $3,000. I'm certainly not going to skimp on safety. If I can rebuild a 4 cylinder outboard engine or a car engine for $500, I can't imagine a Corvair being that much more, they're just parts and they're readily available. About the only difference is some of the specialty items on it. [quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]This topic is baaack! Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go. Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain. Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. Now, I'll just run for cover. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:01 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: weight and Balance Talking about W&B, is there anyone with a completed W&B for a 601XL, that they could send me. I want to do some practicing, but have no ideas on the figures. Send anything you have to _LHusky@aol.com_ (mailto:LHusky@aol.com) Thanks, Larry Husky 601XL/Corvair Madras, Oregon ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:19 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure At 15:43 02-10-07, you wrote: > >[Rolling Eyes] I am a new owner of a Zodiac 601 HDS The A/C has a >TTEA of 150 Hrs.. The engine is a Rotax 912 UL # 4401716..I am used >to Lyconing engines but Rotax is new to me. Lately I have noticed >that the oil pressure is higher than what is specified in >the manual. It is supposed to be 22-72 psi , when I am turning >about 5000 rpm it fluctuate over 80psi. I can't find any thing about >it in the trouble shooting about high oil pressure..Is there any body out Another possible issue regarding oil pressure changes: I found that changing to an actual Rotax oil filter, from one that is simply compatible, seems to have increased the oil pressure somewhat. Have others found this to be correct? Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:10 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: weight and Balance Gary Ray's has numbers filled in: http://www.ch601.org/resources/W &B/ZodiacXLWBFinal.xls -- Craig ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:10 PM PST US From: "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito" Subject: Zenith-List: About True Track Autopilot Hi Guys, Does anyone here have a pictures showing the True Track Autopilot instalation which goes on Zodiac XL 601? If so, please send it to me lenabeto@uol.com.br Rgds, Roberto Brito. Zodiac XL Jab 3300, Enigma, Woodcomp 3300 Prop Brazil. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:15 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: About True Track Autopilot Did you look at the autopilot servo pictures in the photo share? http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/craig@craigandjean.com.02.11.2006 -- Craig ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:22 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith building expense > What a great idea. It sounds like a wonderful excuse for me to go to Las > Vegas and play poker along with flying the club airplane. Hard to say which is the bigger gamble! > > I suppose you want me to have a medical certificate to fly the 172, A lot of pilots sell their airplanes because they loose their medical. My Pal Bob says that's the time to buy your own airplane, because nobody will rent to you anymore! Randy, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:05 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Jeff, would this be the wrong time to mention that my company demonstrator 601XL is a plans built with a Corvair engine? Not to mention that total cost is below $15,000 if you don't count my panel of which I went overboard. In addition, you added Jabiru to the aircraft motors, this is not a certified Aircraft motor and is mostly constructed using automotive parts. I have a few friends that have a 601 even cheaper, one gent has a standard panel 601XL ready for flight,( waiting for final inspection) he plans built it in a year and is under $12,000 without paint but everything else. Safety is construction methods and materials, not brand names! Although most plans built aircraft are not as nice as a kit built plane, I have seen some plans built planes I would be very happy to fly and some kit built that scarred me, also I have seen a few that won Grand Champion at the airshows. Jeff, you are inflicting your point of view, this comes from the path you have traveled over your life. IT is sound advice for those who have traveled similar routes. Nevertheless, it is not an opinion that is relevant to others who walked the line of life enjoying the creation of projects. Building a plane from plans is not hard; 10 years ago, Zenair only sold kits that were hand created, to say, each and every part was made in the plans builder fashion. THEREFORE, if a builder is willing to take the time to learn the proper methods, there is no reason in this world why he cannot build a plane just as airworthy as yours. MOREOVER, if plans=92 building was such a hard and unachievable goal then why would Zenith support such a feature? Why would I have instructed a workshop, in the Zenith facility during the open house? Hosted by Mark of HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com" \nCan-Zac Aviation (Zenith Aircraft's Canadian representative), this workshop covered the skills, materials, tools and commitment required to accomplish the feat of plans-building your own aircraft, whether the HYPERLINK "http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7drawings.html"STOL CH 701 or HYPERLINK "http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/drawings.html"Zodiac XL, for less than $10,000 (not counting the engine). Topics included: Reading and understanding the drawings and manuals, making rib form blocks, cutting the sheet metal rib blanks, deburring and polishing techniques, rib forming, tips, tricks and techniques, and more. >From the Zenith website, written by the President of Zenith. Being generous with a FWF of $5,000 for a Corvair installation and you have a plane for under $15,000. Jeff, I in no way wish to insult you, Everything you have stated in the last few letters is true as it applies to yourself and other like minded people. I believe that you truly cannot see that it is possible for others to accomplish this feat; I also believe that you have certain beliefs in your decisions that would not allow you to accomplish this goal. However, others do not share your thought process, nor should they if it is not appropriate. In closing, installing a Jabiru engine in my 601XL would have been my first choice, along with the FWF. It really is a simple installation and very nice engine. Nevertheless, I am not a rich man, so when I weighed the options I installed the Corvair and have a safe plane, with a proven track record design. Yes Jeff, I do consider my 601XL a =93real=94 plane. Also I consider myself an average builder when I began it, plus my first plane I built from plans I considered myself a less then average builder, but very eager to learn as much as I could. I have said this before to many, if you are building to own and fly a brand new plane with superior performance over the old dilapidated rental fleets out there, buy a QBK kit! IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane then purchase a kit. IF your building to live an adventure of building a plane from a flat sheet and the flying at the end is just a new bonus then consider a plans built, it is a hell of an adventure. As for the NSI and dead stick landings, yup I can see that. I have always held the belief that if you take any motor designed at 70hp then hop It up to 105hp your in for a world of headaches. I like the Subaru engines, I have 5 in the shop, but they are a harder conversion and not for the average guy like the Corvair is. In addition, the average Corvair is outputting the hp is was designed for. Nevertheless, each of us must make that decision based on their own investigations, NO-ONE can tell us what to do in our own planes, but it is always good to hear the opinions, BOTH sides of the coin and pick which truths apply to our own personal capabilities and situations. As for Renting, Lets see my last rental, C-150 walk around. All fiberglass parts cracked. Duct tape holding things on, oil leaks from FWF, drips of fuel from wing tank bleeders. Paint in shameful faded condition. Windshield and side windows glazed, fuel gauges inaccurate, one non-functional, seats ripped and hard to move, carpet stank ! GOD I wish I only found this on one plane but it is all to typical of the rental fleet out there. I show my list of real problems I would NOT accept in my own plane and get the response that it has just had a fresh annual a month or two ago and is all good till next year. IT may fly but I feel far safer behind the plane I built and did not have to use duct tape to keep parts on. Moreover, don=92t forget the bragging rights as you take that pretty woman up for her first flight in a plane you own and built. Well hopefully someone has bragged over this, I have been married for over 20 years and forfeited this right. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really "experimental", then you're talking Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff. If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough. Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically. Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru, which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead stick landing .... Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137844#137844 10/2/2007 6:43 PM ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:40 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Stratus Subaru seasonal mixture Hi guys, Still in test mode, (mentally,) I thought it best to confess my latest flub so others might learn or gain insight. September 29 I was at the airport at 7:00 a.m. Larry Dorgan (a friend and 701 Builder) arrived shortly after and we took off toward Burlington into a decent headwind. A thin overcast with sunshine provided a soft light patchwork of brown and green fields and we had smooth 75-degree air. At 2500 feet and 20 minutes out, water and oil temps crept to my EIS safe set points 220-coolant and 250-oil. We got a warning light. I let off 4900 rpm and temps subsided temporarily. The heat muff was moving cool air, so that wasnt the problem. We were both disappointed, but decided to safely return to MLI and forego this years Open House at Zenith. At home, I re-visited the Bing Manual and realized Id noted 178 and 2.78 jets are for summer. I was still flying with the leaner 176 and 2.76 winter jets. These are intended for a winter-air-soaked engine that could tolerate a warmer mixture. My summer jets should have been 178 and 2.78 for a richer mixture to reduce engine heat so coolant and oil can do their part. After lunch, I drove back to the airport and re-jetted the Bings to 178 and 2.78. Id mixed assumptions about thin hot air versus thick cold air, which are less a concern. The percentage of engine heat output reduced by a richer mixture in summer is important. EGTS reduced from 1425 by 50 degrees should allow coolant and oil temps go lower by similar numbers. The afternoon wind was blowing pretty hard so confirmation of this would be left to the next good day. This good day, I took flying gear to the hangar to check numbers for the 178 and 2.78 jets. I took off from 27, climbed to 4000 ft and maintained 4900 rpm for 15 minutes. This was repeated at 2500 feet. Coolant temperatures never went above 197-deg F, Oil remained at 230-deg F, CHTs read 203-deg F and EGTs stayed under 1380. After the test flight, I landed on 27, taxied back satisfied and reassured by the results. Its true that correct seasonal mixture per one jet size can have everything to do with cooling the Subaru engine. In my haste to be ready for Open Hangar Day, I missed the symptoms of an engine that had been running near safe EIS set points most of the summer. Nothing harmed, but its a point that should be made and will have to be remembered for the next trip. We probably missed a good Saturday too. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:43 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense This sounds like good advice but I have a problem send money to a PO Box and not being able to reach a person. Last week I was able to spend some time in Daytona Beach, Fla. and thought this would be a great time to pickup the manual from WW. Problem was I thought the hangar was outside Dayton mapquest could not find the address. Tried calling two number, one was disconnected and the other one told me to call another number. When I called it a machine told me to leave a message and then disconnected me. So I sent an e-mail but still have not heard from anyone. No sure I will buy from anyone I can not talk to! There I got it off my chest. SORRY Jerry of Ga "You should really buy WW's conversion manual before you waste your money." ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:29 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Stratus Subaru seasonal mixture Sorry to say Larry , Ya Missed a Great time. Oh well there is always the Sun-N-Fun BBQ Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:41 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Stratus Subaru seasonal mixture Hi guys, Still in test mode, (mentally,) I thought it best to confess my latest flub so others might learn or gain insight. September 29 I was at the airport at 7:00 a.m. Larry Dorgan (a friend and 701 Builder) arrived shortly after and we took off toward Burlington into a decent headwind. A thin overcast with sunshine provided a soft light patchwork of brown and green fields and we had smooth 75-degree air. At 2500 feet and 20 minutes out, water and oil temps crept to my EIS safe set points 220-coolant and 250-oil. We got a warning light. I let off 4900 rpm and temps subsided temporarily. The heat muff was moving cool air, so that wasnt the problem. We were both disappointed, but decided to safely return to MLI and forego this years Open House at Zenith. At home, I re-visited the Bing Manual and realized Id noted 178 and 2.78 jets are for summer. I was still flying with the leaner 176 and 2.76 winter jets. These are intended for a winter-air-soaked engine that could tolerate a warmer mixture. My summer jets should have been 178 and 2.78 for a richer mixture to reduce engine heat so coolant and oil can do their part. After lunch, I drove back to the airport and re-jetted the Bings to 178 and 2.78. Id mixed assumptions about thin hot air versus thick cold air, which are less a concern. The percentage of engine heat output reduced by a richer mixture in summer is important. EGTS reduced from 1425 by 50 degrees should allow coolant and oil temps go lower by similar numbers. The afternoon wind was blowing pretty hard so confirmation of this would be left to the next good day. This good day, I took flying gear to the hangar to check numbers for the 178 and 2.78 jets. I took off from 27, climbed to 4000 ft and maintained 4900 rpm for 15 minutes. This was repeated at 2500 feet. Coolant temperatures never went above 197-deg F, Oil remained at 230-deg F, CHTs read 203-deg F and EGTs stayed under 1380. After the test flight, I landed on 27, taxied back satisfied and reassured by the results. Its true that correct seasonal mixture per one jet size can have everything to do with cooling the Subaru engine. In my haste to be ready for Open Hangar Day, I missed the symptoms of an engine that had been running near safe EIS set points most of the summer. Nothing harmed, but its a point that should be made and will have to be remembered for the next trip. We probably missed a good Saturday too. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com 10/2/2007 6:43 PM 10/2/2007 6:43 PM ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:51 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense Jeyoung, you apparently had some very old contact info for WW. Just go to http://flycorvair.com/ for all current information. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeyoung65@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense This sounds like good advice but I have a problem send money to a PO Box and not being able to reach a person. Last week I was able to spend some time in Daytona Beach, Fla. and thought this would be a great time to pickup the manual from WW. Problem was I thought the hangar was outside Dayton mapquest could not find the address. Tried calling two number, one was disconnected and the other one told me to call another number. When I called it a machine told me to leave a message and then disconnected me. So I sent an e-mail but still have not heard from anyone. No sure I will buy from anyone I can not talk to! There I got it off my chest. SORRY Jerry of Ga "You should really buy WW's conversion manual before you waste your money." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response From: "kmccune" 8) -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137973#137973 ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:57 PM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure When we first flew our 601HD with R912S, the oil pressure was LOW. It turned out to be the pressure gauge or sender, I don't know which. It reads 2/3 of the correct value over a considerable range (20-40 psi). This was determined by putting a second known accurate pressure gauge simultaneously in the oil line. My point is, don't assume your gauge reading is correct! There may be nothing wrong with the oil pressure. John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Ottawa Carp/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:11 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense That is where I got the addresses and phone number. Jerry of Ga ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:58 PM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Mark, Well said! My number are coming in around 14-15K too but hey, I'm not going to argue about it. Kevin R. 601XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:52 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Hi Mark, I don't want to get into the scratch builder pricing discussion, but I would like to comment on one little part of your message. At 05:37 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote: >IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane >then purchase a kit. I think there are nearly as many reasons people build an airplane as there are people doing it. I am not really trying to get a plane for a discount and get flying quickly. Indeed, I am not sure I will enjoy flying at all. I have been an inactive pilot for around 20 years, and while I always was a good pilot I never really enjoyed it a whole bunch. Flying has always been more of a challenge for me than an act of pleasure. I am hoping the lack of scheduling issues flying rentals will make flying my own plane more enjoyable. I mostly wanted to build a plane because I wanted something "Worthwhile" to build. After retiring as an engineer and designer of computers for mass production, I found life to be a bit boring. I have always enjoyed building stuff and it never really mattered what kind of stuff it was. The new Sport Pilot and LSA rules led me down the garden path to building an airplane. For me the kit approach was the clear choice. I have sufficient funds for any approach to flying light airplanes. The kit manufacturer allows me to build my own plane without doing the administrative work of finding all the materials. They also perform many of the "Difficult" tasks that require special equipment or skills. These include things like welding and bending 12 foot long pieces of metal. I am happy to pay Zenith for these services. For me the really important saving offered by the kit is not the saving of money but the saving of time and effort doing stuff I don't really like doing. I think it is good for us to have these discussions of builder motives and costs. Alas, the temptation we all seem to have is to think our own analysis is the only one that really counts and should be applied to all other builders. I think the truth is each builder and each airplane built is unique. We can all try to help each other complete our projects even if we can't agree on the reasons and issues each of us must consider. Paul XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:18 PM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy left wing7 The "heavy left wing" phenomenon is fairly common on the HD and HDS (I don't know about the XL). I think it is probably due mainly to clockwise-rotating propeller torque. Slightly incorrect offset angle of the engine mount might be another reason. Non-skid wing root material won't be a contributor. In other words, I can't give you a definitive answer! Has anyone experienced heavy RIGHT wing with a counter-clockwise-rotating prop? It would be fun to know. I have never heard of a case of heavy right wing. We put our trim tab about half way out along the aileron; the precise distance is not critical. Further out from the fuselage will have more effect. It is absolutely NOT necessary to go to the trouble of making two trim tabs, one for each wing; you have better uses for your time! John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Ottawa Carp/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" Hopefully I can do all that on my lather and milling machine. [quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]You should really buy WW's conversion manual before you waste your money. We do use the heads that come off the engine but they need new guides put in the and anything less than what falcon does IMO shouldn't be in airplanes. The crank will need to be tapped for the safety shaft and nitrated so the cost for all the machine work is around 300.00 so whichever crank you use it will cost you the same because the 209 crank will need to be tapped unless you are doing that yourself. Look I build aircraft that anyone would feel safe in I don't cut corners and I don't risk lives to save a buck so build yours how you want but please do your homework first. This is my last post on this subject In a message dated 10/3/2007 3:28:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > Most of the line items I would be interested in would be the internal engine parts. Still, I don't see heads listed on there, nor would I expect them to be. That being the case, why replace the jugs but not the heads. If anything it would be the other way around. If the heads are ok, I don't see any reason the jugs would need to be replaced. Hone them lightly, caliper them, if they look ok no need to spend another $350 See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137981#137981 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense From: "ashontz" I agree, the fraction of the money is better spent on tools. [quote="naumuk(at)alltel.net"]All- I agree absolutely with the other Bill. You can easily make your own Corvair parts if you have a Bridgeport and lathe at your disposal. When I was growing up, I had access to a full machine shop two steps out of the living room door. Now I don't. I could probably build an AirCorvair for less than $2K then, but that was then. Now I'm at 5K+ and counting. Feces occurs. The point I'm trying to make is this. The degree of "Scratchbuilding" you can pull off is dependent on the tools you have available to use. Some tools, such as "Daves Brake" will require little investment yet save you thousands. Investing in a full machine shop is another story. If you already have access, I agree, you can do it. Do not archive. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa > --- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137982#137982 ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rotax 912 UL high oil pressure From: "Edward Micallef" To all who responded to my problem with the high oil pressure, thank you I will check each one out till I find the the right fix and of course keep you all informed..the weather is changing in the NW and I will have to check this out in between rain showers...Ed : Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137985#137985 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:25 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Kit vs plans and costs. Alas, the temptation we all seem to have is to think our own analysis is the only one that really counts and should be applied to all other builders. I think the truth is each builder and each airplane built is unique. We can all try to help each other complete our projects even if we can't agree on the reasons and issues each of us must consider. Paul XL fuselage Very eloquently put Paul, I agree fully, in my last post I tried to make the same point, but it ended up a little long winded, and still missed the point with the finesse your one paragraph has. Mark Do not archive 10/2/2007 6:43 PM ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:26 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy left wing7 > Has anyone experienced heavy RIGHT wing with a counter-clockwise-rotating prop? It would be fun to know. Corvairs spin the "other" way. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Aileron/Flap Trailing Edge Alignment...? From: "PatrickW" Thanks everyone. Initially I'd marked off a line 10mm back from the "leading edge" of the aileron skin that forms the hinge, and set that up as the rivet centerline. But it just didn't look right... It occurred to me that maybe there was some "extra" on the top aileron skin, and that maybe I shouldn't be using it as a reference to measure from. So I went back to the drawings and added up some measurements and came up with a distance of 45mm between the front of the aileron "spar" (not sure what it's really called but I think you know what I mean) and the rear channel of the wing. I set up for that distance, and things looked a lot better. So I went with that. Looks good. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137994#137994 ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:34 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy left wing7 I was concerned with this "heavy left wing phenomena" a couple of years ago when I did my phase one flight testing. I have an HDS with electric aileron and elevator trim. I noticed that with both wing tanks full, my trim tab indicated that I had a "heavy left wing". I landed and moved to the right seat, and took off, you guessed it, I now had a "heavy right wing". I find that I have to adjust aileron trim, or switch fuel tanks, about every 10 minutes to maintain "hands off trim", solo or with passenger. This topic has been beat to death in the past. Do not archive. Leo Gates N601Z, CH601HDS TDO, Rotax 912UL John M. Goodings wrote: > > The "heavy left wing" phenomenon is fairly common on the HD and HDS (I > don't know about the XL). I think it is probably due mainly to > clockwise-rotating propeller torque. > ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:53 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: avex rivet question clarification In a message dated 9/29/2007 11:25:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gboothe5@comcast.net writes: Gary, I used CherryMax rivets and did not try to "done" the head. I have found no one who has much on the pop rivet inspection. Have fun building. Jerry ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: About True Track Autopilot From: "N601RT" TruTrak website has drawings for the CH601XL at http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/ZodiacPitchandRoll.pdf I'm very happy with my DigiFlight IIVSGV. Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 851hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138009#138009 ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:46 PM PST US From: "Robert Loer" Subject: RE: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense ------- Original Message ------- >From : Afterfxllc@aol.com[mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com] Sent : 10/3/2007 1:10:29 PM To : zenith-list@matronics.com Cc : Subject : RE: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith building expense SNIP This is my last post on this subject THANK GOD!!! ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:49 PM PST US From: "Robert Loer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy left wing7 If I understand a trim tab on an aileron when you have a heavy or low left wing you put a tab on the left and bend it up which moves the aileron down and raises the wing. If this is correct would it make a difference where or how far out on the aileron it was mounted? Robert Loer >------- Original Message ------- >From : John M. Goodings[mailto:goodings@yorku.ca] >Sent : 10/3/2007 7:17:37 PM >To : zenith-list@matronics.com >Cc : >Subject : RE: Zenith-List: Re: Heavy left wing7 > The "heavy left wing" phenomenon is fairly common on the HD and HDS (I don't know about the XL). I think it is probably due mainly to clockwise-rotating propeller torque. Slightly incorrect offset angle of the engine mount might be another reason. Non-skid wing root material won't be a contributor. In other words, I can't give you a definitive answer! Has anyone experienced heavy RIGHT wing with a counter-clockwise-rotating prop? It would be fun to know. I have never heard of a case of heavy right wing. We put our trim tab about half way out along the aileron; the precise distance is not critical. Further out from the fuselage will have more effect. It is absolutely NOT necessary to go to the trouble of making two trim tabs, one for each wing; you have better uses for your time! John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Ottawa Carp/Toronto. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.