---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/04/07: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:25 AM - List Fund Raiser (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:52 AM - Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook (secatur) 2. 01:59 AM - Control Column fabrication - 601XL (Ian McClelland) 3. 03:50 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (Brad Cohen) 4. 04:01 AM - Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook (chris Sinfield) 5. 05:19 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (GLENN JOHNSON) 6. 05:27 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (Murray Randall) 7. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook (Southern Reflections) 8. 06:19 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (john H) 9. 06:26 AM - Re: dual sticks in 601XL (Mark Colbeck) 10. 07:09 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 11. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: dual sticks in 601XL (Dirk Slabbert) 12. 07:19 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (Edward Moody II) 13. 07:52 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (wade jones) 14. 08:21 AM - Re: dual sticks in 601XL (Mark Colbeck) 15. 08:26 AM - Re: Oil Access Door (LarryMcFarland) 16. 08:58 AM - Re: A6, A7 Rivets? (Brad Cohen) 17. 09:14 AM - Re: 701 Dual Controls. ref Michael Rand. (Mark Colbeck) 18. 10:17 AM - Powerplant Choices (Art Olechowski) 19. 10:46 AM - Re: Powerplant Choices (John Marzulli) 20. 12:46 PM - Re: Corvair Engines (Huncha) 21. 01:22 PM - 601 sound attenuation (LarryMcFarland) 22. 01:47 PM - Re: Powerplant Choices (Paul Mulwitz) 23. 02:33 PM - Re: 601 sound attenuation (Southern Reflections) 24. 02:39 PM - Fuel Sender screws (David Wright) 25. 03:16 PM - Fuel selector location? (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 26. 03:19 PM - Re: 601 sound attenuation (LarryMcFarland) 27. 03:40 PM - Re: Fuel selector location? (Southern Reflections) 28. 05:16 PM - Re: Control Column fabrication - 601XL (Ron Lendon) 29. 05:41 PM - Re: Fuel selector location? (Ron Lendon) 30. 06:18 PM - Re: Fuel selector location? (Matt & Jo) 31. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector location? (Southern Reflections) 32. 06:25 PM - some video's (Canatukker) 33. 07:13 PM - Am I Krazy? You tell me who is Crazy. (Brett Hanley) 34. 07:17 PM - Re: Fuel selector location? (Southern Reflections) 35. 07:24 PM - Re: Am I Krazy? You tell me who is Crazy. (Southern Reflections) 36. 07:57 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector location? (Paul Mulwitz) 37. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector location? (Bryan Martin) 38. 08:37 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector location? (Southern Reflections) 39. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector location? (Southern Reflections) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:18 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: List Fund Raiser Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. I've got a bunch of really nice incentive gifts this year. There's really something for everyone! Please make a Contribution today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook From: "secatur" Hi USA ! Unfortunately welcome to the real world...It would be probably a fair turnabout if stuff in the USA wound up costing the same as everywhere else ! Everything we build costs twice as much, and all we can do is drool over USA catalogs and prices ! Be better if everything went down EVERYwhere !, but unlikely...so get used to your hobby costing about 50% of your income..sorta lets you know if you REALLY want to do it! NIl Illegitimi Carborundum! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143740#143740 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:45 AM PST US From: "Ian McClelland" Subject: Zenith-List: Control Column fabrication - 601XL Has anyone on the list fabricated the 601 XL control column from pipe stock? I am looking at drawing 6B17-2. There doesn't appear to be enough information on the pipe cutting angles to make the canted forward Y shaped dual control grip. I am trying to work out the cutting angle settings for my compound miter saw. Ian McClelland Scratch builder 601XL Working on Fuselage 9:28 a.m. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:01 AM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? John I agree, someone on the list had suggested a nut but there is no access (bottom of nose rib #4) I thought about a cherrymax but wanted the lists' opinion first. I think I will order a few A6's and a few cherrymax to see which fits best. can you seat a cherrymax rivet with the same rivet puller that we are using for the A4 and A5's?? -Brad >From: john H >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:02:48 -0500 > > >Have you considered using another type of rivet other than Avex? Perhaps >you could find a cherry max rivet to fit. If you can not get a backing >plate on a rivet how can you get a nut on the bolt or were you were >thinking of a rivnut? > >Regards >John > > > From: jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 20:31:46 -0400 > > > > > > > > > Does anyone on the list know if A6 or A7 exist? I have two holes that >are > > oversized to the point that an A5 won't fit. The holes are inaccessible >to > > put any type of backing plate in so my only(?) option is an oversized >rivet? > > Can anyone help? > > > > A6 rivets certainly exist. A few came with my HD kit. ZAC sells them >too. > > In an old note from Nick that I re-read recently looking for the HD VDO > > sender instructions (which I eventually found by the way) Nick indicated > > that A5 rivets commonly are used when the holes for A4 rivets are >elongated > > or drilled oversize, but that A6 rivets are rarely used when a hole for >an > > A5 is oversize. The question then becomes "Should you use a bolt?" > > > > Jeff Davidson > > CH601 HD/Jabiru 3300/working on fuel system ... > > > > >=========== >=========== >=========== >=========== > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble >challenge with star power. >http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook From: "chris Sinfield" Pete Dont be to sad at the price increase as now with the rise of the Aussie dollar$ we can now afford to buy the Jab USA FWF package for my XL and get it shipped back Down Under to Australia. Swings and roundabouts.. Looking forward to my FWF Chris Sydney Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143747#143747 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:03 AM PST US From: GLENN JOHNSON Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? HI JEFF THAT IS WHAT I HAVE TO DO ON ONE MOUNT FOR A ELECTRIC TERMINAL BLOCK. WHEN I RIVETED IT IT BROKE THE BLOCK, SO I'M JUST GOING TO USE A WASHER HEAD SC REW AND NUT. IT IS FAIRLY ACCESSABLE ON THE FIREWALL THOUGH. GLENN From: professor71@HOTMAIL.COMTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Zeni th-List: A6, A7 Rivets?Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:02:48 -0500 Have you considered using another type of rivet other than Avex? Perhaps yo u could find a cherry max rivet to fit. If you can not get a backing plate on a rivet how can you get a nut on the bolt or were you were thinking of a rivnut?RegardsJohn> From: jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net> To: zenith-list@ matronics.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets?> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2 avidson@earthlink.net>> > > Does anyone on the list know if A6 or A7 exist? I have two holes that are > oversized to the point that an A5 won't fit. T he holes are inaccessible to > put any type of backing plate in so my only( ?) option is an oversized rivet?> Can anyone help?> > A6 rivets certainly e xist. A few came with my HD kit. ZAC sells them too.> In an old note from N ick that I re-read recently looking for the HD VDO> sender instructions (wh ich I eventually found by the way) Nick indicated> that A5 rivets commonly are used when the holes for A4 rivets are elongated> or drilled oversize, b ut that A6 rivets are rarely used when a hole for an> A5 is oversize. The q uestion then becomes "Should you use a bolt?" > > Jeff Davidson> CH601 HD/J abiru 3300/working on fuel system ... ============ ============> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble chal lenge with star power. Play Now! _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:15 AM PST US From: "Murray Randall" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? If you have access to buck a solid rivet its diameter will expand more than a pulled rivet and may fill the hole. Try a sample by drilling a test piece to your oversize, buck one ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:48 AM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook Illegitmi Carborumdum !... Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down ? Been fighting them for over 40 years,America IS my real world. Wouldn't it be better if the world raised it's standard of liveing for it's people ,Instead of saying how good we have it over here? we Do have it good over here, NO, We have it GREAT . What we don't have is 35 hr. work weeks,and gov. run company's... So, raise the prices $1000.00- $5ooo.00 I don't care !! because I live in AMERICA,and if I want it ,I can work a little longer and a little harder and GET IT ! That's what makes AMERICA great not to mention a small thing called FREEDOM, FREEDOM,FREEDOM, If you don't belive me , look at all the Illgeal's flowing over our borders like rat's , YA" think they may want a little FREEDDOM and afew of those AMERICAN Buck's ? By the way, if I had it to again, I would have bought a COVAIR eng." Made In America" and no price increase.... Have a Gooday Mate ! and think about it... N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "secatur" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:49 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru Engine Price Outlook > > Hi USA ! > Unfortunately welcome to the real world...It would be probably a fair > turnabout if stuff in the USA wound up costing the same as everywhere else > ! > Everything we build costs twice as much, and all we can do is drool over > USA catalogs and prices ! > Be better if everything went down EVERYwhere !, but unlikely...so get used > to your hobby costing about 50% of your income..sorta lets you know if you > REALLY want to do it! > > NIl Illegitimi Carborundum! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143740#143740 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:16 AM PST US From: john H Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? Brad Yes you can... >can you seat a cherrymax rivet with the same rivet puller >that we are using for the A4 and A5's?? -Brad _________________________________________________________________ ! ilnews ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: dual sticks in 601XL From: "Mark Colbeck" Dirk or Larry I would love to get some more information on the dual sticks that you have created. I am about to get my panel cut and I am rethinking my controls. I have read the posts and will be considering all the advice. Larry I visited your web site several times (lots of good stuff) but would love to see a few more pics of the set up. Thanks -------- CH701 60% Complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143767#143767 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:00 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? Why would you use the head that reforms the head (as with A-4 and A-5) when the CherryMax has a flat head and is not made from alum. The CherryMax head will not be reformed. Use a flat head. Jerry of Ga ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:09 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: dual sticks in 601XL Ok Mark, I will send you some pics. In return you can fax me a new top skin! All the best Dirk. 701 (dent still in the wing....) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Colbeck" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: dual sticks in 601XL > > > Dirk or Larry I would love to get some more information on the dual sticks > that you have created. I am about to get my panel cut and I am rethinking > my controls. I have read the posts and will be considering all the advice. > Larry I visited your web site several times (lots of good stuff) but would > love to see a few more pics of the set up. > Thanks > > -------- > CH701 > 60% Complete > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143767#143767 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:39 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? I probably didn't get the problem straight in my head but couldn't you buck a solid rivet there before closing the top of the nose skin (or is the nose skin already closed?)? In any case, a few "other" rivets are not likely to be the end of civilization as we know it. As long as they are aluminum rivets, no problems. If you use steel, you'll want to dip them in primer when setting them (galvanic corrosion protection). If it is a dome head rivet, just pull it with a flat nosepiece as if you were flush setting an A4 or A5 rivet. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Cohen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:46 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? John I agree, someone on the list had suggested a nut but there is no access (bottom of nose rib #4) I thought about a cherrymax but wanted the lists' opinion first. I think I will order a few A6's and a few cherrymax to see which fits best. can you seat a cherrymax rivet with the same rivet puller that we are using for the A4 and A5's?? -Brad ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:39 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? Did you consider putting an A5 rivet next to the enlarged hole and using a flller in the enlarged hole. Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? I probably didn't get the problem straight in my head but couldn't you buck a solid rivet there before closing the top of the nose skin (or is the nose skin already closed?)? In any case, a few "other" rivets are not likely to be the end of civilization as we know it. As long as they are aluminum rivets, no problems. If you use steel, you'll want to dip them in primer when setting them (galvanic corrosion protection). If it is a dome head rivet, just pull it with a flat nosepiece as if you were flush setting an A4 or A5 rivet. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Cohen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:46 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? John I agree, someone on the list had suggested a nut but there is no access (bottom of nose rib #4) I thought about a cherrymax but wanted the lists' opinion first. I think I will order a few A6's and a few cherrymax to see which fits best. can you seat a cherrymax rivet with the same rivet puller that we are using for the A4 and A5's?? -Brad ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: dual sticks in 601XL From: "Mark Colbeck" THANKS DIRK LOOK FORWARD TO THEM. -------- CH701 60% Complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143790#143790 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:54 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Oil Access Door Hi Jay, I put in a door that's easy to make for the fiberglass cowling. Using fine jigsaw blades in an Exacto blade holder, you can manually cut a very fine door from the cowl itself and then remount it on a frame plate and hinge with Dzus fasteners. See link, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlaccessbaseplate2.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowloilaccess2.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowloilaccessopen2.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezfrontright.gif Good luck, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > I am now contemplating the access door to get to the dip stick on my 601XL with WW Corvair engine. I have some ideas, but I would like to see what others have done, learn from your experience and maybe get it right the first time. I've had enough "do-overs" already, thank you. > > Jay in Dallas > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:09 AM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? To All, I had to drill out rivets in the nose skin and nose ribs to replace a (ahem) damaged spar cap...(don't ask) and that's how the holes got misshapen. I dont have internal access to use a nut and bolt or to buck a solid rivet because the leading edge is closed, save for these few rivets. I will order cherry max rivets and A6's in various sizes to get the best fit then use my standard rivet puller to seat them. (looks like Aircraft Spruce has a decent selection) Thanks for the heads up about cortec-ing the individual rivets. -Brad Cohen >From: john H >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:02:48 -0500 > > >Have you considered using another type of rivet other than Avex? Perhaps >you could find a cherry max rivet to fit. If you can not get a backing >plate on a rivet how can you get a nut on the bolt or were you were >thinking of a rivnut? > >Regards >John > > > From: jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A6, A7 Rivets? > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 20:31:46 -0400 > > > > > > > > > Does anyone on the list know if A6 or A7 exist? I have two holes that >are > > oversized to the point that an A5 won't fit. The holes are inaccessible >to > > put any type of backing plate in so my only(?) option is an oversized >rivet? > > Can anyone help? > > > > A6 rivets certainly exist. A few came with my HD kit. ZAC sells them >too. > > In an old note from Nick that I re-read recently looking for the HD VDO > > sender instructions (which I eventually found by the way) Nick indicated > > that A5 rivets commonly are used when the holes for A4 rivets are >elongated > > or drilled oversize, but that A6 rivets are rarely used when a hole for >an > > A5 is oversize. The question then becomes "Should you use a bolt?" > > > > Jeff Davidson > > CH601 HD/Jabiru 3300/working on fuel system ... > > > > >=========== >=========== >=========== >=========== > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble >challenge with star power. >http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual Controls. ref Michael Rand. From: "Mark Colbeck" Geoff that is a very interesting set up. I am interested in installing the dual sticks, are they working out alright for you? If they are are you interested in sharing some photos? Thanks Mark -------- CH701 60% Complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143801#143801 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:34 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Zenith-List: Powerplant Choices All, I've been looking into powerplants for my 701 even though I'm not even close to hanging the engine. Has anyone considered the UL260i over the 912 for its direct-drive, Electronic Variable Timing and fuel injection? A major downside is a $2500 price increase and un-proven reliability. With some optimism, by the time I'm done with the airframe it will probably have proven itself and the strength of the dollar will be back up. I have not found anyone installing it on the 701 but the site says a 601 installation is coming soon. Any thoughts? http://www.ulpower.com/ do not archive Art Buttoning up the Rudder ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:07 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Powerplant Choices Taking a look at their performance data, it seems to run at the same RPM as the Jabiru 3300. http://www.ulpower.com/ul260i-perf.htm On Nov 4, 2007 10:14 AM, Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > All, > I've been looking into powerplants for my 701 even > though I'm not even close to hanging the engine. Has > anyone considered the UL260i over the 912 for its > direct-drive, Electronic Variable Timing and fuel > injection? A major downside is a $2500 price increase > and un-proven reliability. With some optimism, by the > time I'm done with the airframe it will probably have > proven itself and the strength of the dollar will be > back up. I have not found anyone installing it on the > 701 but the site says a 601 installation is coming > soon. Any thoughts? > > http://www.ulpower.com/ > > > do not archive > Art > Buttoning up the Rudder > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair Engines From: "Huncha" [quote="phpd81p(at)gmail.com"]This question has probably been asked 1000 times, but does anyone have any good resources for acquiring a Corvair engine suitable for rebuild? Thanks! ~Shane Norwood > [b] Yes....try Jeff's Corvair Ranch Inc...in Gettysburg, PA 717-624-2805 I just picked mine up...They are well acquainted with the Williams specs...and can pick out one that meets his criteria...Joe S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143817#143817 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:13 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: 601 sound attenuation Hi Guys, The last several days, I've been adding foam soundproofing to complete the firewall, sides, floor etc. I'm not done, but could wait no longer. I drove to the hangar, pulled the plane onto the apron and started it. I wanted to check the effect of soundproofing, so I left my headset off first. The sound was a lower, more muffled frequency. With the double-D type rubber canopy seals in place, there were no drafts at my elbows, despite a wind with 25-mph gusts. Canopy latch operation was not affected by the slight compression of the seals either. With the headset on, sound seemed more noticeable behind, as soundproofing was not yet added to the baggage turtle deck. I taxied about and was really satisfied with smooth low tone of the Subaru engine from 1100 to 3000 rpm. I put the plane back in the hangar with satisfaction and resolved to do the baggage turtle-deck and the forward top skin next. It looks like the penalty for soundproofing all around will be about 5 pounds. I'll post again when it's "done", but thought you'd like to know it does make a difference. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:20 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Powerplant Choices Hi Art, I took a look at the web information on the new engine. I don't know how well it fits the 701 since I am building a 601, but I did a comparison between the Jabiru 3300 and UL260i specifications. It seems like the 3300 offers about a 25% power advantage for about the same weight as the UL260i. This weight (and purchase package) includes a 20 amp alternator, and I suspect the UL260i doesn't include any alternator. I could be wrong about that, but I didn't see it listed on the web pages I examined. I would imagine the 3300 runs a lot smoother as well since it has 6 cylinders rather than 4. On the other hand, the fuel injection sounds attractive. I am a little reluctant to buy off on the FADEC concept, but I am just old and tired and don't want to dig into this concept enough to become comfortable with it. I don't think this engine provides enough power to be a good choice for a CH601XL, but it might be a nice amount of power for the 701. Rather than considering the Rotax for the 701 I would take a good long look at the Jabiru 80 hp engine. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 10:14 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: > >All, >I've been looking into powerplants for my 701 even >though I'm not even close to hanging the engine. Has >anyone considered the UL260i over the 912 for its >direct-drive, Electronic Variable Timing and fuel >injection? A major downside is a $2500 price increase >and un-proven reliability. With some optimism, by the >time I'm done with the airframe it will probably have >proven itself and the strength of the dollar will be >back up. I have not found anyone installing it on the >701 but the site says a 601 installation is coming >soon. Any thoughts? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:46 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 sound attenuation Larry, what type of foam are you using.? is it a sheet type . What is the double D type rubber seal? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 601 sound attenuation > > Hi Guys, > The last several days, I've been adding foam soundproofing to complete the > firewall, sides, floor etc. I'm not done, but could wait no longer. I > drove to the hangar, pulled the plane onto the apron and started it. I > wanted to check the effect of soundproofing, so I left my headset off > first. The sound was a lower, more muffled frequency. With the double-D > type rubber canopy seals in place, there were no drafts at my elbows, > despite a wind with 25-mph gusts. Canopy latch operation was not affected > by the slight compression of the seals either. With the headset on, sound > seemed more noticeable behind, as soundproofing was not yet added to the > baggage turtle deck. I taxied about and was really satisfied with smooth > low tone of the Subaru engine from 1100 to 3000 rpm. I put the plane back > in the hangar with satisfaction and resolved to do the baggage turtle-deck > and the forward top skin next. It looks like the penalty for soundproofing > all around will be about 5 pounds. > > I'll post again when it's "done", but thought you'd like to know it does > make a difference. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:41 PM PST US From: David Wright Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender screws Request for info re fuel senders I am scratch building a 601XL and am at the stage where I fit the fuel senders to the tanks. I bought the fuel senders from Zenith but they arrived without any screws to attach the senders to the backing plate. I note from the photo assembly guide (6K1b) that there is a longer screw and a number of short ones. Does anyone have the specification for the screws I require? Dave 601XL scratch building (nearly finished right wing) Washington UK ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:38 PM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Another finishing detail question: I have the standard Andair L-R-Off fuel selector from the kit. I have seen most aircraft with the selector mounted on the center console. Since there is no "both" position, we have to change tanks regularly in order to maintain fuel balance. So the selector ought to be in an easily accessible place. Clearly the center console is such a place, but... In order to conserve valuable console space, and also to avoid an extra high spot in the fuel system, I was thinking of mounting the selector on a raised bracket on the floor, to the left of the center tunnel, forward of the controls (dual stick), and aft of the heel support. The "out" line would then run through a grommet back into tunnel and then forward to the firewall. So my question is for people with flying aircraft: Would that location be relatively easily accessible in flight? Or would it be an uncomfortable contortion to reach it? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:13 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 sound attenuation Hi Joe, The foam is from Aircraft Spruce, 1/2-inch. I'd used 3/8" between the firewall and the header tank, but used 1/2-inch all round on the forward side of the firewall, under the carpeted floor and sides. The D-type soft rubber seals were from the trim strip area of Lowe's. It actually comes in a coil advertised at 17-feet, but is double width for a perfect 3/4-inch wide double-D, 1/4-inch high section. Very soft, 10-year service guarantee. The foam is a 3M formula 77 spray adhesive. You press the material lightly inside and the flanges mark the foam so you can cut the piece. The best cutter is one that the blade slides out of the handle and is segmented so you can break off pieces of it as it dulls. Cuts best when it's against a metal yardstick on the foam. Larry Southern Reflections wrote: > > > Larry, what type of foam are you using.? is it a sheet type . What > is the double D type rubber seal? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM > ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" > > To: "zenith-list" > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:19 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: 601 sound attenuation > > >> >> >> Hi Guys, >> The last several days, I've been adding foam soundproofing to >> complete the firewall, sides, floor etc. I'm not done, but could >> wait no longer. I drove to the hangar, pulled the plane onto the >> apron and started it. I wanted to check the effect of soundproofing, >> so I left my headset off first. The sound was a lower, more muffled >> frequency. With the double-D type rubber canopy seals in place, there >> were no drafts at my elbows, despite a wind with 25-mph gusts. Canopy >> latch operation was not affected by the slight compression of the >> seals either. With the headset on, sound seemed more noticeable >> behind, as soundproofing was not yet added to the baggage turtle >> deck. I taxied about and was really satisfied with smooth low tone >> of the Subaru engine from 1100 to 3000 rpm. I put the plane back in >> the hangar with satisfaction and resolved to do the baggage >> turtle-deck and the forward top skin next. It looks like the penalty >> for soundproofing all around will be about 5 pounds. >> >> I'll post again when it's "done", but thought you'd like to know it >> does make a difference. >> >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:56 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Andrew,I thought that Andair made a switch that had off,left,right,and both,I was thinking about getting one . FS20x4 is there number I just looked it up , if it is any help Joe N101HD601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Andrew Elliott To: Zenith-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Another finishing detail question: I have the standard Andair L-R-Off fuel selector from the kit. I have seen most aircraft with the selector mounted on the center console. Since there is no "both" position, we have to change tanks regularly in order to maintain fuel balance. So the selector ought to be in an easily accessible place. Clearly the center console is such a place, but... In order to conserve valuable console space, and also to avoid an extra high spot in the fuel system, I was thinking of mounting the selector on a raised bracket on the floor, to the left of the center tunnel, forward of the controls (dual stick), and aft of the heel support. The "out" line would then run through a grommet back into tunnel and then forward to the firewall. So my question is for people with flying aircraft: Would that location be relatively easily accessible in flight? Or would it be an uncomfortable contortion to reach it? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Control Column fabrication - 601XL From: "Ron Lendon" Ian, The cuts on round tubing intersections are rarely straight. For fabrications like that I normally make a wooden fixture and grind in the intersections, one intersection at a time. Takes longer but the results are very good. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143872#143872 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? From: "Ron Lendon" Please try this at home. Fill a glass with water. Take two drinking straws and place both in your mouth. Check the seal, place one straw in the water and the other outside the glass. Draw the water up the straw. Doesn't work does it? That is why the low wing doesn't have a both setting on the fuel selector. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143879#143879 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:25 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? I had similar concerns about raising the location of the fuel selector. I moved it down to keep it as low as possible. I wanted to make sure that there is a pressure head on the fuel selector. I then used an extension to keep the selector within easy reach. You can see it on this page of my website. http://www.zodiacxl.com/Brake%20and%20Fuel%20system.htm While I understand the need to conserve space. I also look at the functional priority of the systems on the aircraft. Fuel system management rates pretty high in my priority. When we look at accident statistics fuel management is one of the major failures. So in my panel it is where I can get to it. Good Luck Matt www.zodiacxl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Andrew Elliott To: Zenith-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Another finishing detail question: I have the standard Andair L-R-Off fuel selector from the kit. I have seen most aircraft with the selector mounted on the center console. Since there is no "both" position, we have to change tanks regularly in order to maintain fuel balance. So the selector ought to be in an easily accessible place. Clearly the center console is such a place, but... In order to conserve valuable console space, and also to avoid an extra high spot in the fuel system, I was thinking of mounting the selector on a raised bracket on the floor, to the left of the center tunnel, forward of the controls (dual stick), and aft of the heel support. The "out" line would then run through a grommet back into tunnel and then forward to the firewall. So my question is for people with flying aircraft: Would that location be relatively easily accessible in flight? Or would it be an uncomfortable contortion to reach it? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:40 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? Ron, Couldn't you run off of BOTH with both tanks full for the" top half ", I only fly from the top half any way,then it's time to re fuel. I dont see why you couldn't fly off the frist 3/4 of the tanks ,then switch back and forth between LEFT and RIGHT ? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lendon" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:39 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? > > Please try this at home. > > Fill a glass with water. Take two drinking straws and place both in your > mouth. Check the seal, place one straw in the water and the other outside > the glass. Draw the water up the straw. Doesn't work does it? That is > why the low wing doesn't have a both setting on the fuel selector. > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI > Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143879#143879 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: some video's From: "Canatukker" I uploaded two video clips of me flying the 601 UL in the lower mainland of Canada B.C. You guys might like to watch them have fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOcq8YeYjY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfN9cmyBTnw do not archive -------- Have fun fly save Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143897#143897 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:36 PM PST US From: Brett Hanley Subject: Zenith-List: Am I Krazy? You tell me who is Crazy. I was visiting my good friend John Bolding who is also a member or this list one day. He took me to his neighbors hangar; he lives on an airport. His neighbor had recently completed a beautiful Bear Hawk in what seemed to me to be a very short time. My comment to him was "you sure must spend a lot of time building airplanes". His comment back really made me think a little. He said "not near as much time as most people spend in front of the television". The more I thought about it the more that made perfect sense. At least you are doing your own discovery, not watching it on the Discovery Channel. You tell me "Who is crazy"? Brett Hanley Tianjin, China Ch 701 test flying in Baytown, Texas ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Look'slike It's going to be hard as hell to change that filter after you get the plane built, beatiful with the rest of the work... Joe N101HD 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt & Jo To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? I had similar concerns about raising the location of the fuel selector. I moved it down to keep it as low as possible. I wanted to make sure that there is a pressure head on the fuel selector. I then used an extension to keep the selector within easy reach. You can see it on this page of my website. http://www.zodiacxl.com/Brake%20and%20Fuel%20system.htm While I understand the need to conserve space. I also look at the functional priority of the systems on the aircraft. Fuel system management rates pretty high in my priority. When we look at accident statistics fuel management is one of the major failures. So in my panel it is where I can get to it. Good Luck Matt www.zodiacxl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Andrew Elliott To: Zenith-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selector location? Another finishing detail question: I have the standard Andair L-R-Off fuel selector from the kit. I have seen most aircraft with the selector mounted on the center console. Since there is no "both" position, we have to change tanks regularly in order to maintain fuel balance. So the selector ought to be in an easily accessible place. Clearly the center console is such a place, but... In order to conserve valuable console space, and also to avoid an extra high spot in the fuel system, I was thinking of mounting the selector on a raised bracket on the floor, to the left of the center tunnel, forward of the controls (dual stick), and aft of the heel support. The "out" line would then run through a grommet back into tunnel and then forward to the firewall. So my question is for people with flying aircraft: Would that location be relatively easily accessible in flight? Or would it be an uncomfortable contortion to reach it? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:38 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Am I Krazy? You tell me who is Crazy. Ah Soo ,It may be you grasshopper, It'agood point...Joe N101HD ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Hanley To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Am I Krazy? You tell me who is Crazy. I was visiting my good friend John Bolding who is also a member or this list one day. He took me to his neighbors hangar; he lives on an airport. His neighbor had recently completed a beautiful Bear Hawk in what seemed to me to be a very short time. My comment to him was "you sure must spend a lot of time building airplanes". His comment back really made me think a little. He said "not near as much time as most people spend in front of the television". The more I thought about it the more that made perfect sense. At least you are doing your own discovery, not watching it on the Discovery Channel. You tell me "Who is crazy"? Brett Hanley Tianjin, China Ch 701 test flying in Baytown, Texas ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:32 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? Hi Joe, I couldn't resist commenting on this topic. It is one of the "Nature of the Beast" issues that you must directly control the fuel source in low wing airplanes. It has something to do with the physics of liquids and the way gravity works as opposed to the way pumps work. In a liquid, the pressure increases with the depth of the liquid. This means that when using gravity feed from high wing tanks, the tanks will tend to equalize their height so you get roughly the same amount of fuel from each tank when the lines from the tanks are connected. This is what you get when you use "Both" tanks in a high wing plane. In a low wing plane, a pump must be used to raise the fuel from the tanks to the engine. If you gave the pump a choice, it would take its fuel from which ever tank had the lowest pressure. That means the pump would always take its fuel from which ever tank had the least fuel. With this arrangement you would never get any fuel from the tank with the most fuel in it. This is not what you want in an airplane. The normal solution is a selector switch that allows the pilot to draw fuel from which ever tank he chooses. In Piper low wing planes, the normal way to control the fuel is to start with one tank (usually the left tank for some unknown reason) and burn around 1/2 hour from it. Then you switch to the other tank and burn from it for an hour. At this point you should be finished with your flight, but if not you switch to the first tank and burn another hour from it. For takeoff and landing you always switch to the tank with the most fuel. It sounds like a lot of work for a pilot used to high wing planes, but you will get used to it quickly. There just isn't a better way. Paul XL fuselage At 06:14 PM 11/4/2007, you wrote: > Ron, Couldn't you run off of BOTH with both tanks full for the" > top half ", I only fly from the top half any way,then it's time to > re fuel. I dont see why you couldn't fly off the frist 3/4 of the > tanks ,then switch back and forth between LEFT and RIGHT ? Joe > N101HD 601XL/RAM ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:30 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? If you forget to switch to left or right only and the engine quits because its sucking air instaid of fuel, which tank do you switch to to regain power? You may not get any clue from the guages at that point, so you've got a 50-50 chance. It may take a few seconds to get fuel flowing again even if you guess right, and if you guess wrong you've wasted valuable time that you might not have to waste. It's best not to have a both position at all. That way if you run one tank empty you know which tank to switch to to try for a restart. No guessing. > > > Ron, Couldn't you run off of BOTH with both tanks full for the" > top half ", I only fly from the top half any way,then it's time to > re fuel. I dont see why you couldn't fly off the frist 3/4 of the > tanks ,then switch back and forth between LEFT and RIGHT ? Joe > N101HD 601XL/RAM > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lendon" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:39 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? > > >> >> Please try this at home. >> >> Fill a glass with water. Take two drinking straws and place both >> in your mouth. Check the seal, place one straw in the water and >> the other outside the glass. Draw the water up the straw. >> Doesn't work does it? That is why the low wing doesn't have a >> both setting on the fuel selector. >> >> -------- >> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI >> Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) >> http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon >> -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:12 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? Hi Paul, It's always good to to get your input,you have a way with words.I now understand it very clearly ,so it's the Left or Right switch for me...just didn't know about the pressure aspect,. Thank,s Joe N101HD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? > > Hi Joe, > > I couldn't resist commenting on this topic. > > It is one of the "Nature of the Beast" issues that you must directly > control the fuel source in low wing airplanes. It has something to do > with the physics of liquids and the way gravity works as opposed to the > way pumps work. > > In a liquid, the pressure increases with the depth of the liquid. This > means that when using gravity feed from high wing tanks, the tanks will > tend to equalize their height so you get roughly the same amount of fuel > from each tank when the lines from the tanks are connected. This is what > you get when you use "Both" tanks in a high wing plane. > > In a low wing plane, a pump must be used to raise the fuel from the tanks > to the engine. If you gave the pump a choice, it would take its fuel from > which ever tank had the lowest pressure. That means the pump would always > take its fuel from which ever tank had the least fuel. With this > arrangement you would never get any fuel from the tank with the most fuel > in it. This is not what you want in an airplane. The normal solution is > a selector switch that allows the pilot to draw fuel from which ever tank > he chooses. > > In Piper low wing planes, the normal way to control the fuel is to start > with one tank (usually the left tank for some unknown reason) and burn > around 1/2 hour from it. Then you switch to the other tank and burn from > it for an hour. At this point you should be finished with your flight, > but if not you switch to the first tank and burn another hour from it. > For takeoff and landing you always switch to the tank with the most fuel. > > It sounds like a lot of work for a pilot used to high wing planes, but you > will get used to it quickly. There just isn't a better way. > > Paul > XL fuselage > > > At 06:14 PM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >> Ron, Couldn't you run off of BOTH with both tanks full for the" top >> half ", I only fly from the top half any way,then it's time to re fuel. I >> dont see why you couldn't fly off the frist 3/4 of the tanks ,then switch >> back and forth between LEFT and RIGHT ? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:13 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? that's true too Bryan, This list is worth it's weight in gold, most of the time.. Thank's Joe N101HD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? If you forget to switch to left or right only and the engine quits because its sucking air instaid of fuel, which tank do you switch to to regain power? You may not get any clue from the guages at that point, so you've got a 50-50 chance. It may take a few seconds to get fuel flowing again even if you guess right, and if you guess wrong you've wasted valuable time that you might not have to waste. It's best not to have a both position at all. That way if you run one tank empty you know which tank to switch to to try for a restart. No guessing. Ron, Couldn't you run off of BOTH with both tanks full for the" top half ", I only fly from the top half any way,then it's time to re fuel. I dont see why you couldn't fly off the frist 3/4 of the tanks ,then switch back and forth between LEFT and RIGHT ? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lendon" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:39 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel selector location? Please try this at home. Fill a glass with water. Take two drinking straws and place both in your mouth. Check the seal, place one straw in the water and the other outside the glass. Draw the water up the straw. Doesn't work does it? That is why the low wing doesn't have a both setting on the fuel selector. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.