Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:13 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:30 AM - Re: 701 Arm rest/console (jetboy)
2. 12:43 AM - Re: Regulator-Rectifier (jetboy)
3. 04:32 AM - Re: Plane update (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
4. 05:07 AM - Waiting for parts from Flycorvair. Am I the only one? (Donnald Shimoto)
5. 05:23 AM - Re: Regulator-Rectifier (Christoph Steiner)
6. 05:38 AM - Re: Regulator-Rectifier (jackandval)
7. 06:22 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Jerry Hey)
8. 07:06 AM - ELT Position. (Scott Thatcher)
9. 07:17 AM - Re: 601XL ELT position (MacDonald Doug)
10. 07:18 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
11. 07:19 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Kevin L. Rupert)
12. 07:21 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (LarryMcFarland)
13. 07:21 AM - Re: 601XL ELT position (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
14. 07:36 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
15. 07:52 AM - Prop for sale (LRM)
16. 07:58 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Paul Mulwitz)
17. 08:34 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (ZodieRocket)
18. 08:36 AM - Re: Prop for sale (Robin Bellach)
19. 09:01 AM - Re: 601XL ELT position (T. Graziano)
20. 09:02 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (LRM)
21. 09:07 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (LarryMcFarland)
22. 09:31 AM - Re: Antenna Locations (John M. Goodings)
23. 09:59 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (ZodieRocket)
24. 10:00 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (ZodieRocket)
25. 10:01 AM - Re: Scam artist (Gig Giacona)
26. 10:16 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Gig Giacona)
27. 11:01 AM - Re: of wrath and rants... (Matt Ronics)
28. 12:12 PM - Re: Re:promoshop (ZodieRocket)
29. 12:21 PM - Re: Jabiru FWF (eddies)
30. 12:24 PM - Re: 601XL ELT position (Leo Gates)
31. 12:25 PM - Re: Re:promoshop (ZodieRocket)
32. 12:33 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (ZodieRocket)
33. 12:41 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (rroberts)
34. 01:50 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (Randy Stout)
35. 01:50 PM - Re: 601XL ELT position (Chuck & Lana Maggart)
36. 02:13 PM - Re: 601XL ELT position (Chuck & Lana Maggart)
37. 02:17 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (david hein)
38. 02:22 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (Southern Reflections)
39. 04:17 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Bob Unternaehrer)
40. 04:31 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Carlos Sa)
41. 04:52 PM - Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. (Paul Mulwitz)
42. 05:07 PM - Re: Re:promoshop (Bob Unternaehrer)
43. 05:12 PM - Re: 601XL ELT position ()
44. 05:18 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Bob Unternaehrer)
45. 05:18 PM - Re: It's here Your Christmas list (Bob Unternaehrer)
46. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: of wrath and rants... (RClaggf4u)
47. 05:55 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (GeorgeM)
48. 05:59 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Al Hays)
49. 06:02 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Robin Bellach)
50. 06:23 PM - Re: Scratchbuilding Tools - Olfa P-cutter 800 (MacDonald Doug)
51. 07:02 PM - Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. (Southern Reflections)
52. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: of wrath and rants... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
53. 08:11 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Dino Bortolin)
54. 08:52 PM - Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. (JohnDRead@aol.com)
55. 09:41 PM - Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. (Paul Mulwitz)
56. 10:45 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (DRAGONFUEL@aol.com)
Message 0
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| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great
List services!! And pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution
too!
The Contribution Site is fast and easy:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Arm rest/console |
Kevin,
I dont think anything would fit, and in any case your right arm is needed for
resting on the stick in the 701. I sometimes use my leg if the weather is not
too bumpy.
ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146819#146819
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Regulator-Rectifier |
Jack.
If the regulator is bad it will be overcharging by a large margin. Normal charging
should be 14v to 14.5 volts. if your battery is too small or getting worn
out it may not be able to handle a perfectly good regulator.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146820#146820
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Plane update |
Straight out of a rattle can Rust Oleum High gloss I use I use a 2 part
etching primer.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/17/2007 9:39:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Keith.Ashcraft@itt.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES"
<Keith.Ashcraft@itt.com>
Good job, Jeff.
What type of Primer / Paint did you use?
Keith
CH701-scratch (after finding out last night that my top skin is too narrow
for my Horizontal Tail Frames, I must have favored one side too much when I
drilled the longerons, and now the top is too narrow. Oh well, I will see what
I can do today, or start making me another Top Skin. aaarrrggghhh!!!!!)
******************************************************************************
******************
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sat 11/17/2007 4:58 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Plane update
Here are some pics of the center console we finished up last night.
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporation. The
recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of
viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted
by this e-mail.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Waiting for parts from Flycorvair. Am I the only one? |
I think the =93hangar gang=94 is a great bunch of guys. I doubt that any g
roup has done more for the spirit of grassroots homebuilding. William will
go down in the history books of the EAA as one of the greatest aviators of
our time.
That being said I would like to ask one simple question. How many of you h
ave been waiting a longggggg time for parts that have been paid for? I hav
e a considerable list of paid for parts on back order and would like to kno
w how many you are in the same boat. PLEASE REPLY TO THIS POST OFF LIST.
I do not think is would be fair to William to drag this out on any list. R
eply to me at Donnald_Shimoto@hotmail.com . Your name will remain anonymo
us.
I have made this post anonymously to save myself being stoned to death for
heresy. I will take this matter up with with William as soon as he answers
an email or his telephone.
Concerned consumer,
Donnald Shimoto
Illusions
DO NOT ARCHIVE
_________________________________________________________________
You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init
iative now.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Regulator-Rectifier |
Failure of the Rotax (Ducati) rectifier/regulator is not uncommon.
(We are on our 4th, now forced cooled by a PC fan).
A french homebuilder did some research:
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
Christoph Steiner
Am 18.11.2007 um 03:02 schrieb jackandval:
>
> I have a Rotax 912 and it is overcharging. I can't find anything in
> the manuals of how to check if it is a bad regulator. If it is
> charging does that mean it is a bad regulator?
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Regulator-Rectifier |
Thanks , that page was very informative but in your testing did you find a way
to test and see if it is a regulator or alternator? On a car it is easy to isolate
it to the alternator or external regulator.
Jack
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146840#146840
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally
> have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their
> idea=92s for Chris Heintz=92s designs like William Wynne does.
However,
> I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints
> Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does,
> then try=92s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready
> to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion
would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed
flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some
builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit
quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the
certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your
sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would
funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more
thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
to sell.
Message 8
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Thanks to all who responded. Every one seemed to have solved the problem or
gotten around it with logic! It really is terrific to find out how everyone
does these things so you can take the best advice and go with it. I'll
leave the decision as to the best advice up to the rest of you. Thanks
again to all.
Scott
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
Leo, I'm no expert so take this for what is worth.
BUT... isn't the ELT antenna supposed to go on the top
side of the fuselage so that it can broadcast in the
event of a crash. Being on the bottom of the fuse,
would it not get knocked off in the event of a crash
that collapses the gear?
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
--- Leo Gates <leo@zuehlfield.com> wrote:
> <leo@zuehlfield.com>
>
> I put my ELT antenna on the bottom of the fuselage
> about 1 foot to the
> rear of the trailing edge of the wing. My COM
> antenna is mounted on top
> of the baggage compartment about 8" forward of the
> rear of the baggage
> compartment. I used some scrap .025 as a doubler.
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z Taildragger - HDS
>
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
My position on this is:
If I decided to sell say wheel pants and could sell them for less than
zenith I feel it is ok to do so as long as the person I am selling them to h
as a
valid builder #. Your opinion is that if the scratch builder out sources
anything he is somehow taking food out of someone else's mouth. Most scratch
builders use Todds canopy because he is cheaper. I think where you should d
irect
your attention is the prices you charge for certain parts. People wouldn't
look elsewhere if the canopy wasn't more expensive from Zenith.
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for part
s
so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00
and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their
should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever
to
send parts that builders have ordered.
Bottom line is that if someone buys your plans you have given them the righ
t
to get or make their parts from anyone they choose and like it or not their
are going be those builders that buy sub standard parts from the lowest
bidder.
What everyone needs to think about before the send money for a deal that is
too good to be true is the simple fact that if someone offers you a set of
15
gal wing tanks for $600.00 that zenith sells for over a thousand then
something is wrong because any smart business person that is selling them w
ould be
asking $900.00. What they are doing is banking on your greed to save a buck
and then you are sucked in and you had dare not say anything on the list
because you may never get your parts.
Enough I'm going to bed I worked on my 601 all night and BTW it has all
Zenith parts.
In a message dated 11/18/2007 9:23:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jerry@jerryhey.com writes:
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
We have also had to hear about people building parts and making assemblies
for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no issue with
someone creating a new assembly and selling their idea=99s for Chris
Heintz=99s
designs like William Wynne does. However, I do take pause when I see scratc
h
builders using the blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same par
ts
that Zenith does, then try=99s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One gu
y even
builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is selling a
scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open market place. You
r
proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion would prevent selling of
partially built projects or even completed flying airplanes. Buyer beware
is
the operational rule. Some builders on this list have stated that they are
not impressed with kit quality. They think they can do a better job than t
he
factory or the certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt yo
ur
sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would funnel mor
e
income into your business. You need to give it some more thought. Regard
s,
Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing to
sell.
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
Jerry,
I have to agree with you on this one. I purchased a set of plans and
the right to construct one aircraft, hence the serial number. If I
choose to fabricate every single part or choose to farm some work out
and pay another person to fabricate parts for me, should be my option.
If the dealers and manufacturers have the best product at the best
price, I would imagine they will corner the market. If they don't, then
I should be permitted to go find the best deal that I am comfortable
with. You know, we had this discussion a few months ago over on the
Corvair list. I do sympathize with the designers and dealers wanting to
recoup their costs and labor, but I just don't see the difference
between me building a part or paying my neighbor to build it for me. It
happens all the time in other industries. On the other hand, I've been
accused of being full of it most of my life so what do I know?
Kevin L. Rupert
601XLTD/Corvair
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that sells
repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's product. The
actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not having
the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree with the
plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
Jerry Hey wrote:
>
> On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
>
>> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
>> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have
>> no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
>> their ideas for Chris Heintzs designs like William Wynne does.
>> However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
>> blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
>> Zenith does, then trys to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even
>> builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>>
> As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
> selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
> market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion
> would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed
> flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some
> builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit
> quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the
> certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your
> sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would
> funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more
> thought. Regards, Jerry
>
> P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
> to sell.
> *
>
> *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
LOL that is unless you plant the nose wheel in a corn field then
what.....?????????? It would then be on top wouldn't it LOL
In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:18:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dougsnash@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Leo, I'm no expert so take this for what is worth.
BUT... isn't the ELT antenna supposed to go on the top
side of the fuselage so that it can broadcast in the
event of a crash. Being on the bottom of the fuse,
would it not get knocked off in the event of a crash
that collapses the gear?
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
--- Leo Gates <leo@zuehlfield.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates
> <leo@zuehlfield.com>
>
> I put my ELT antenna on the bottom of the fuselage
> about 1 foot to the
> rear of the trailing edge of the wing. My COM
> antenna is mounted on top
> of the baggage compartment about 8" forward of the
> rear of the baggage
> compartment. I used some scrap .025 as a doubler.
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z Taildragger - HDS
>
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
Larry,
I would have to disagree.. If a person buys the plans from zenith they then
have the right to that intellectual property. So as long as a supplier of
parts verify's the builder # is valid the supplier is doing nothing wrong a
nd the
builder has every right to buy that part from them.
Isn't it kind of a double standard to sell a scratch build set of plans and
then say you must buy all the parts you can't make from us?
Don't get me wrong I think zenith has a great product and I support them
100% and even told Sabastion about Tom Henderson but Zenith can't have it bo
th
ways.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:22:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
larry@macsmachine.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that sells
repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's product. The
actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not having
the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree with the
plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
Jerry Hey wrote:
>
> On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
>
>> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
>> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have
>> no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
>> their idea=99s for Chris Heintz=99s designs like William Wyn
ne does.
>> However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
>> blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
>> Zenith does, then try=99s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy
even
>> builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>>
> As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
> selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
> market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion
> would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed
> flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some
> builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit
> quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the
> certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your
> sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would
> funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more
> thought. Regards, Jerry
>
> P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
> to sell.
> *
>
> *
Message 15
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I have a brand new Culver two blade wood prop from Valley Engineering.
The hub is 3" thick. It is 66X49, six hole 3/8" SAE-1 bolt pattern. It
is dark oak with white tips. It has only been spun up, never flew. It
is in perfect balance. Larry Smith of Culver said it should be perfect
for a corvair engine on a 601. I was going to put it on e-bay, but
thought I would give my list buddies first shot. Anyone interested give
me an e-mail at lrm@skyhawg.com. If I haven't sold it by the weekend, I
will put it on e-bay.
Just a word about Culver. In all my experience with aircraft parts
vendors, Culver is the absolute best. They took the prop back twice,
first to stain/rebalance it and second to shorten/rebalance it. It was
70". Neither time did they charge me. Plus they shipped it back to me
at their expense. They gave me no static, offered advise and help.
What else could one ask for? So, if any of you guys/gals need a prop or
anything else Valley has, give them a first shot. You will not be
sorry.
Oh, on this prop, Larry Smith said they would make any pitch changes
they could for around $50.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
I wish to make one more little twist in this exchange. I tend to
agree with Jerry on this whole issue - buyer beware. However, I have
a great deal of sympathy with those who support Zenith and Zenair and
the rest of the businesses supporting CH's designs.
In the end it is the individual builder who must determine the
quality and suitability of each part that goes in the plane which he
builds. This is true for parts from any source including Zenith and Zenair.
Chris deserves protection on the entire design of each plane under
intellectual property laws, but even he has probably copied most of
the details of his designs from other pre-existing ones. That is the
way of engineering. Still, a builder who uses Chris and his
pretenders at Zenith as the major starting point for his design owes
them a license fee. That is paid in the form of a fee for the
drawings that includes the right to build one airplane. (As many of
you already know, I strongly object to the fact that there are
perfectly good engineers who modify Chris's drawings without adding
their name to the information block at the bottom of the
drawing. These are the "Pretenders" I talk about since it appears
that Chris did the work when indeed it was someone else.)
For the most part, I don't think Zenith and Zenair have any
proprietary rights in the airplane designs. These companies produce
parts for sale to builders based on Chris's designs. They have no
right to tell anyone not to build parts without paying license
fees. On the other hand, they produce very high quality parts and
sell the service of aggregating the parts into kits. These are very
valuable services which rightfully earn the fees charged. I feel I
have received my money's worth from Zenith for the XL kit I purchased
along with the technical support received. I am happy to recommend
these products to anyone.
For me, the bottom line responsibility goes to each builder. He must
determine which supplier to use for each part that goes into his
plane. It is his "Bottom" which will be sitting in the plane. There
is no single right answer over whether to buy materials from one
supplier or manufactured parts from another. There is no single
supplier of materials that is acceptable, and there is no single
supplier of manufactured parts which is acceptable.
As always, this is just my opinion.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:20 AM 11/18/2007, you wrote:
>
>Jerry,
>There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
>else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
>project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that
>sells repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's
>product. The actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned
>project risk not having the quality, dimensional or material match
>up that would agree with the plans. That risk would be doubled for
>the person's parts sold in dishonest competition with a company from
>which he has stolen intellectual property.
>Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
>
>Jerry Hey wrote:
>>
>>On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
>>
>>>We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
>>>assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally
>>>have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
>>>their idea's for Chris Heintz's designs like William Wynne does.
>>>However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
>>>blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
>>>Zenith does, then try's to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy
>>>even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>>>
>>As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
>>selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a
>>open market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical
>>conclusion would prevent selling of partially built projects or
>>even completed flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational
>>rule. Some builders on this list have stated that they are not
>>impressed with kit quality. They think they can do a better job
>>than the factory or the certified dealer. Again Buyer
>>beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a minute but
>>eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into your
>>business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
>>
>>P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have
>>nothing to sell.
>>*
>>
>>*
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | of wrath and rants... |
Jerry, Your right in your observation, the way I wrote it would lead to
putting more work into the hands of the Approved shops that have the
resources, use Zenith parts and have done the work many times. However,
lets now consider the person who wrote the letter, I have been shown as
the Biggest supporter of the scratch building way of building your
Zenith plane. My building websites are HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch601.org/"www.ch601.org, HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com/"www.ch701.com these websites are dedicated to the
plans builder and I am the person who built both sites with the valued
input from members of this list. Further to that you will find many
people who have come to me asking Can-Zac to build a set of wings or a
fuselage. Your right I will not turn away the work if it ever comes to
that, but I spend a good amount of time Talking to the customer first,
telling them how doable the work is and even recommending the DVD series
from HYPERLINK "http://www.homebuilthelp.com/"www.homebuilthelp.com. So
far 90% of the work I could have done has been completed by the owner,
and the letters that follow with Thanks are more important. Every
Oshkosh, I stand up and not speak of the benefits of buying a Zenith kit
at the forums, but I teach how to plans build, how to source material
and how to make tools to accomplish the job.
During the Zenith open house, I didn=92t show people how to build their
panel or paint there plane, I spent a couple of hours teaching how to
plans build, and I made the workshop hands on so each and every
participant left with a part for a 601 or a 701 that they created
themselves.
Are these the signs of someone who try=92s to filter work to the
Official
bodies? Not in my eyes, I would rather see someone do it themselves, be
proud of their accomplishment when they stand back. Now let=92s really
look at the company, over the years they have added press dies for all
the formed parts, they now have a CNC router for pre-drilling and
quality is improving all the time through investment.
Chris Heintz made a decision a long time ago to provide people with
plans to build their planes, often cheaper with significant increase of
hours. Plans cost are cheap for the intellectual property involved, and
they allow a builder the ability to build ONE plane from each set for
personal use. This is a gentleman=92s agreement between the builder and
Chris Heintz. What does the Factory get out of this arrangement? They
get the opportunity to support the builder through the whole process, it
does not matter if the builder bought a set of plans or a Quick build
kit they are one in the same and in most cases, the company=92s
employees
must spend a lot more time with plans builders then a kit owner. They
also tend to teach the plans builder how to do something that is already
completed in the kit. SO the company actually loses money, in a plans
builder that buys nothing from them. What would the logical conclusion
from that route be? Where would the funds come from to keep the people
at the factory working, where would they get the funds to bring new
aircraft to market?
IF this was a threat in any way actually then you would not have seen
plans still being available for the 601 or the 701. But lets remember,
many on this list are not in their 60=92s or 70=92s and the plane they
are
plans building now is likely not to be the last one. I want to see
future models available by plans, but why would any company just hand
over the blueprints for others to copy and make parts and assemblies to
sell in direct competition with the designer, in my world it doesn=92t
make sense. In the Aviation world less and less companies are selling
plans and more and more are only selling Quick Built kits. Is this what
we want to see as standard practice in the future. I can=92t afford a
QBK,
heck when I started I could hardly afford the plans for my Osprey 2,
with a new wife, a new house and a starting family.
In your letter, you state =93as long as there is total disclosure..=94
Unless these parts made from the blueprints are followed with a serial #
then they are stealing from the designer. Selling partially built
projects is not a problem if for some reason someone=92s life situation
becomes a conflict with there project, as long as the serial #
accompanies the parts I have no issue if the parts are plans built or
kit built. However, I do take extreme issue with parts being produced
from the plans, exactly the same as the blueprints and sold without
serial # , in direct competition with the company that provided the
ability to do so. This is not competition in reality, Vans/Rans/ kitfox
is competition, selling a builder plans so that they can make the parts
on the plans to sell on a ongoing basis is simply stealing in my
opinion. If a builder comes up with a new FWF package different then
what Zenith or it=92s affiliates offer or if they come up with a new
wing
root fairing then I will support their ingenuity to offer these things
for sale. We had one builder come up with plastic or fiberglass tanks,
good for them, if they work and are reasonable then I won=92t stand
opposed to them professionally, I would only offer thoughts about
alcohol content and testing to ensure that the builders get a good deal.
If a builder believes he can do a better job then the factory,
excellent, one such example is the 701 with the lizard on the side, it
has won many awards at shows. I would love to see many more builders
take the time necessary to build a Zenith design that wins Grand
Champion. But would that be reasonable for a company to spend that many
extra 100=92s of hours to produce a kit of that Quality? Would the
reflecting cost increase be realistic. Can the kit be improved up, yes
and I love seeing builders spending the extra 100=92s of hours doing so,
it shows the true craftsmen we all strive to be.
So Jerry, you as a new person to the list and not having the chance to
read over the archives judged my intentions from one letter, I will try
to watch that view in the future. But those who have been on this list
for awhile, know I have been a member of this list from day one. I am a
big supporter of the plans builder and was on this list longer as a
plans builder then as Can-Zac Aviation. I had to make a decision to stay
on this list after I became Can-Zac, but with my history on the list I
believed that people would still accept me as a builder more then they
take me for Can-Zac. Remember, I still make my personal planes from
plans, I enjoy designing and working with metal as well as trying new
things. But when working for customers I do not add any of my influence,
I only work with the Zenith parts and kits.
I know I got off track a bit with this letter, but understand that I
want people to realize their dreams. Accomplish their goals, If it gets
to be too much I offer a lot of resources for them to do the work
themselves. Only after all of that do I agree on doing work for them. I
offer builders assistance in my hanger for the homebuilt market and
experimental. I want to see builders do the work themselves, learn and
grow to realize the accomplishment that they can achieve. If you think I
am only trying to filter work, you are vastly wrong in my intentions and
actions over the last 3 years. I have helped more people realize they
can do it themselves then I have ever done work for.
As for builders assistance, I have seen very good people out there with
great intentions. I have also gone to court to support a builder that
trusted a =93Qualified=94 builder assistance that destroyed the plane,
and
still had the nerve to charge $35,000. I don=92t know the qualifications
of each and everyone out there that offers builders assistance. I do
know the abilities of the Zenith dealers and can recommend them fully.
IS this filtering, yes, but I look at it as avoiding the unscrupulous
that I have seen offering assistance, they talk a great talk and can
make a person confident in them, but do they have the support of the
company?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion would
prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed flying
airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some builders on
this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit quality.
They think they can do a better job than the factory or the certified
dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a
minute but eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into
your business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
to sell.
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Prop for sale |
Right Hand or Left Hand. How much$?
----- Original Message -----
From: LRM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Prop for sale
I have a brand new Culver two blade wood prop from Valley Engineering.
The hub is 3" thick. It is 66X49, six hole 3/8" SAE-1 bolt pattern.
It is dark oak with white tips. It has only been spun up, never flew.
It is in perfect balance. Larry Smith of Culver said it should be
perfect for a corvair engine on a 601. I was going to put it on e-bay,
but thought I would give my list buddies first shot. Anyone interested
give me an e-mail at lrm@skyhawg.com. If I haven't sold it by the
weekend, I will put it on e-bay.
Just a word about Culver. In all my experience with aircraft parts
vendors, Culver is the absolute best. They took the prop back twice,
first to stain/rebalance it and second to shorten/rebalance it. It was
70". Neither time did they charge me. Plus they shipped it back to me
at their expense. They gave me no static, offered advise and help.
What else could one ask for? So, if any of you guys/gals need a prop or
anything else Valley has, give them a first shot. You will not be
sorry.
Oh, on this prop, Larry Smith said they would make any pitch changes
they could for around $50.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
Scott,
I do not know if it is shown on current dwgs, but I installed the 6B3-2
Optional Battery Access Panel. I then installed the ELT in the tail
cone area on the 6B1-3 Bottom End Skin (reinforced).with the antenna
located forward of the 6B21-5 Saddle on the
6B21-6 Rear Top Skin. I did not want to have it in the "cargo" area
behind the seats.
The 6B3-2 panel also provides inspection access for the rear fuselage
for my 100 hr and annual inspections.
No problems with CG; in fact, the only way I can exceed aft CG on my
airplane (without cargo) is to load over max gross with two "fat" guys
and "Zero" fuel.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab 3300, N493TG; 320 hrs
Subject: 601XL ELT position
From: Scott Thatcher (s_thatcher@bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat Nov 17 - 7:33 AM
Can I get info on where many of you have placed your ELT? And the
location of your external antenna so that it doesn't interfere with the
other COM antenna? Thanks in advance.
Scott
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
Just a thought, I certainly am not wanting to get into any type of
argument.
Did it cross your minds that Zenith's price is just too much in the
first place. I think that $995 for two very thin walled 10 gallon tanks
is a little over board. I had two brand new ones and sold them for
$750. They were so thin I think you could thump on them and put a hole
it them. I just had a 20 gallon, safety foam filled .125 walled
aluminum tank built with all the fittings for less than a third of that
including shipping from Florida to Arkansas. It's for my new 701 belly
pod (HawgBelly) I will be offering someday. Someday is when I can get a
new engine in SkyHawg so I can test the flight effects the HawgBelly
will have. I have put pictures on my site, just click on "Sneak
Preview". Don't have an idea of prices yet, suggestions, with tank,
without tank? The first tank I have is a little too heavy, next ones
will be about half as thick. Should be about 10lbs. The pod is 17 lbs
without the tank.
I used to sell 701 14 gal fiberglass wing tanks for $700. I quit
because of the liability. I am going to offer aluminum ones soon built
by someone else. $600/$700 for a couple of 15 gal tanks sounds about
right to me.
Thanks, Larry www.skyhawg.com.
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: of wrath and rants...
My position on this is:
If I decided to sell say wheel pants and could sell them for less than
zenith I feel it is ok to do so as long as the person I am selling them
to has a valid builder #. Your opinion is that if the scratch builder
out sources anything he is somehow taking food out of someone else's
mouth. Most scratch builders use Todds canopy because he is cheaper. I
think where you should direct your attention is the prices you charge
for certain parts. People wouldn't look elsewhere if the canopy wasn't
more expensive from Zenith.
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for
parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks
for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people
off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people
that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
Bottom line is that if someone buys your plans you have given them the
right to get or make their parts from anyone they choose and like it or
not their are going be those builders that buy sub standard parts from
the lowest bidder.
What everyone needs to think about before the send money for a deal
that is too good to be true is the simple fact that if someone offers
you a set of 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 that zenith sells for over a
thousand then something is wrong because any smart business person that
is selling them would be asking $900.00. What they are doing is banking
on your greed to save a buck and then you are sucked in and you had dare
not say anything on the list because you may never get your parts.
Enough I'm going to bed I worked on my 601 all night and BTW it has
all Zenith parts.
In a message dated 11/18/2007 9:23:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jerry@jerryhey.com writes:
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no
issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their
idea=99s for Chris Heintz=99s designs like William Wynne
does. However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith
does, then try=99s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even
builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion would
prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed flying
airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some builders on
this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit quality.
They think they can do a better job than the factory or the certified
dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a
minute but eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into
your business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have
nothing to sell.
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
Jeff,
The person building is given a serial number and accorded the right to
buy or build parts as needed. That's the extent of his rights to
Zenith's intellectual property.
If that person buys parts that are Zenith design, fabricated and sold by
a person with no Zenith agreement for mfr property rights, that's
illegal and constitutes theft.
Obviously, many people don't see it that way, but that's the law and the
intended nature of the 2001 copyright by Zenith printed on the plans.
I didn't say everyone complied, nor does it apply to the scratch parts
that are abandoned and sold as Zenith has been paid prior to their
initial build.
I occasionally make parts that are accessory to Zenith parts, but never
make anything for sale that is in the Zenith inventory and my site says so.
OEM parts always have a property agreement behind them, at least that
was before China and NAFTA.
respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> Larry,
>
> I would have to disagree.. If a person buys the plans from zenith they
> then have the right to that intellectual property. So as long as a
> supplier of parts verify's the builder # is valid the supplier is
> doing nothing wrong and the builder has every right to buy that part
> from them.
> Isn't it kind of a double standard to sell a scratch build set of
> plans and then say you must buy all the parts you can't make from us?
> Don't get me wrong I think zenith has a great product and I support
> them 100% and even told Sabastion about Tom Henderson but Zenith can't
> have it both ways.
>
> Jeff
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:22:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> larry@macsmachine.com writes:
>
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Jerry,
> There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
> else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
> project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that
> sells
> repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's
> product. The
> actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not
> having
> the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree
> with the
> plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
> dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
> intellectual property.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
>
> *
>
> *
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna Locations |
Although ours is a 601HD, I don't think an XL or even a 701 would me much
different. The conventional wisdom is to keep antennae at least 3 feet
apart, more if possible. It makes sense, even if the frequency bands are
different, presumably because harmonics can be a factor. Thus, we put (1)
the GPS antenna on the turtle deck just behind the front lip of the
canopy; (2) the VHS antenna on the top skin behind the canopy where the
two top skins join for doubler reinforcement; (3) the ELT antenna on the
top skin just a bit in front of the fin; and (4) the mode C blade antenna
on the belly just behind the landing gear (no tower has ever reported a
"blind spot" for this location - it occurs on Katanas), accessible from
behind the seats. In this location behind the seats, we have a little
horizontal panel of 0.25" aluminum which bridges forward from the rear
zee; the ELT, transponder and encoding altimeter electronics are mounted
on it, accessible from behind the seats. The ACK ELT can be controlled
from a little switch control (on, reset and LED light) mounted on a
sub-panel. N.B. One thing I would do differently. Mount the VHS antenna
4 or 5 inches further forward using a doubler plate; it his hard to reach
underneath at the back of the baggage shelf on the top skin to connect and
disconnect the BNC cable.
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto.
Message 23
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| Subject: | of wrath and rants... |
Answers below
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: of wrath and rants...
My position on this is:
If I decided to sell say wheel pants and could sell them for less than
zenith I feel it is ok to do so as long as the person I am selling them
to has a valid builder #.
I agree if your wheel pants are not the same as the ones Zenith
manufacturers.
Your opinion is that if the scratch builder out sources anything he is
somehow taking food out of someone else's mouth. Most scratch builders
use Todds canopy because he is cheaper. I think where you should direct
your attention is the prices you charge for certain parts. People
wouldn't look elsewhere if the canopy wasn't more expensive from Zenith.
I have installed both Canopies and I will say frankly that there is no
comparison. Zenith does not make the Canopy it is done by LP Aero
Plastics and it is made to the same specifications as a certified plane.
It is also thicker and optically clear. Yes it is expensive. But the
standards are different, now Todds canopies are cheaper and they are
nice enough to recommend, even Zenith has recommended them as an
alternative to the one produced by LP. However, Zenith will not sell you
one from Todds as they know the Quality of the one from LP is better.
You do in fact pay for what you get, though I will admit I find the Todd
canopy a good alternative. Since Zenith does not manufacture this part
then I also see no conflict in recommending this.
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for
parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks
for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people
off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people
that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
WE can=92t provide that or even comment on that due to the legal system,
but I can say without doubt that you cannot go wrong with dealing with a
Zenith Distributor. There are many on this list and have called me
directly hear me recommend Todds canopies, and not say there only option
is to buy from me. However I do point out the difference and leave it to
the builder to decide.
Bottom line is that if someone buys your plans you have given them the
right to get or make their parts from anyone they choose and like it or
not their are going be those builders that buy sub standard parts from
the lowest bidder.
That is completely wrong, when you buy the plans you are licensed to
build one plane from them, not to go into business selling the parts
from the plans. Also understand we are not talking about the one fellow
helping another for a case of beer ( bag of coffee in my case) we are
talking about the guy who is selling the parts from the plans for a
profit.
I had a fellow up to my residence from California, he wanted to learn
about plans building over a weekend, I taught him and he made some
parts, I did not charge him and he took the parts home for free. I
cannot and would not charge for a Zenith designed part I made. That is
THEIFT.
What everyone needs to think about before the send money for a deal that
is too good to be true is the simple fact that if someone offers you a
set of 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 that zenith sells for over a
thousand then something is wrong because any smart business person that
is selling them would be asking $900.00.
We could make our fuel tanks cheaper by having them made out of .063 and
hiring students to do them, heck even I can pick up a tig stick and weld
up .063. But the kit ones are .025 and welded by a professional, I in no
way could weld .025 and not have a molten mess. We could make a lot of
parts cheaper by adding thickness, but we are adding weight which is
removed from your useful load. Apples and oranges folks.
===============
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 24
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| Subject: | of wrath and rants... |
Larry, I hold nothing short of the highest regard for you, I consider
you a gentleman with ethics above reproach. You are the exact model that
is helping this industry and not destroying it. You have seen places
that can use new accessories and offer them as a compliment to the
Designers offerings.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LarryMcFarland
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: of wrath and rants...
<larry@macsmachine.com>
Jeff,
The person building is given a serial number and accorded the right to
buy or build parts as needed. That's the extent of his rights to
Zenith's intellectual property.
If that person buys parts that are Zenith design, fabricated and sold by
a person with no Zenith agreement for mfr property rights, that's
illegal and constitutes theft.
Obviously, many people don't see it that way, but that's the law and the
intended nature of the 2001 copyright by Zenith printed on the plans.
I didn't say everyone complied, nor does it apply to the scratch parts
that are abandoned and sold as Zenith has been paid prior to their
initial build.
I occasionally make parts that are accessory to Zenith parts, but never
make anything for sale that is in the Zenith inventory and my site says
so.
OEM parts always have a property agreement behind them, at least that
was before China and NAFTA.
respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> Larry,
>
> I would have to disagree.. If a person buys the plans from zenith they
> then have the right to that intellectual property. So as long as a
> supplier of parts verify's the builder # is valid the supplier is
> doing nothing wrong and the builder has every right to buy that part
> from them.
> Isn't it kind of a double standard to sell a scratch build set of
> plans and then say you must buy all the parts you can't make from us?
> Don't get me wrong I think zenith has a great product and I support
> them 100% and even told Sabastion about Tom Henderson but Zenith can't
> have it both ways.
>
> Jeff
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:22:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> larry@macsmachine.com writes:
>
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Jerry,
> There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling
someone
> else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
> project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that
> sells
> repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's
> product. The
> actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not
> having
> the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree
> with the
> plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
> dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
> intellectual property.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
>
> *
>
> *
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 25
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I hate that anyone would get ripped off but what do you expect. If you look at
the web site there are a total of 5 pictures of an uncompleted tail section. Why
would anyone send this guy money for kit parts?
This is what happens when you don't go to the soruce.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146903#146903
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
>From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it) for
recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the Drawings
serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft.
The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate,
c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written
permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals,
and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty. During
the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and installations to
be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority (FAA)
prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of any
Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146911#146911
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
> Did it cross your minds that Zenith's price is just too much in the first place. I think that $995 for two very thin walled 10 gallon tanks is a little over board. I had two brand new ones and sold them for $750. Thanks, Larry www.skyhawg.com (http://www.skyhawg.com).
>
Did it cross your mind that, if you take your $750 tanks and add insurance/legal
costs to this, that your final price might be closer or at $995???
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146917#146917
Message 28
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Jon, your use of that girl is shameless. At least in some of those
ad=92s
I have seen. Nevertheless, If you need some shirts done I can have them
done for you. Just don=92t ask to have my Logo included. I support your
product fully and believe you have done a great service to Zenith
builders, but I have issues with some of your ad=92s. I don=92t mind the
girl in the small background holding one of your video=92s but when I
cannot discern if this is a Aircraft builders assistance ad or a Viagra
ad I get a little out of joint. Maybe that comes from me just being a
stick in the mud, or the fact that my daughter is almost the same age? I
am not sure, but most guys like your ad=92s.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Croke
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE:promoshop
Well, from the 'shameless and ashamed of myself a little'
department....... I would LOVE to get the HomebuiltlHELP girl printed on
my shirts... (just as a logo, of course) !
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:zodierocket@hsfx.ca"ZodieRocket
"mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com"zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: RE:promoshop
Thanks Paul, Also note that if you have a High resolution picture of
your plane you can submit It and we can have it printed on the shirt.
That=92s right the shirts are printed on directly not pressed like the
cheap ones. I have taken every step possible to ensure that it is the
highest quality we can get. Most of the clothing Is embroidered using
Madeira threads and the T-shirts are as stated printed right on the
shirt by the printer. These are the highest platforms in the industry.
Hey Rick , when you get a great picture of that flying Dragon, submit it
and get the T-Shirt !!! Then you can say =93Been There-Done that-Got the
Shirt!!!=94
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
11/16/2007 10:58 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 29
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Hi Darryl,
I installed the Australian FWF kit from Jabiru, its more work than the Jab USA
supplied kit, i.e. you need to install the NACA ducts yourself and alignment of
the Cowl and Oil cooler are prettry much up to you, but I am pleased with the
end result.
You can check it out at;
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=eddieseve&project=343&category=0&log=32296&row=130
Regards,
Eddie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146929#146929
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
You are correct. I did not have my brain engaged when I replied
before. My Transponder antenna is on the belly. My ELT antenna is
31/2' aft of my COM antenna - a couple of feet forward of the vert. stab.
Sorry about that.
Leo
MacDonald Doug wrote:
>
> Leo, I'm no expert so take this for what is worth.
>
> BUT... isn't the ELT antenna supposed to go on the top
> side of the fuselage so that it can broadcast in the
> event of a crash. Being on the bottom of the fuse,
> would it not get knocked off in the event of a crash
> that collapses the gear?
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> NW Ontario, Canada
>
>
> --- Leo Gates <leo@zuehlfield.com> wrote:
>
>
>> <leo@zuehlfield.com>
>>
>> I put my ELT antenna on the bottom of the fuselage
>> about 1 foot to the
>> rear of the trailing edge of the wing. My COM
>> antenna is mounted on top
>> of the baggage compartment about 8" forward of the
>> rear of the baggage
>> compartment. I used some scrap .025 as a doubler.
>>
>> Leo Gates
>> N601Z Taildragger - HDS
>>
>>
>
>
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
> Make Yahoo! your homepage.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
Message 31
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Guy=92s and Jon I am sorry, I thought that that reply was going to Jon
directly. Jon knows my opinion of some of his ad=92s especially the one
that was in the back of the Wicks Catalogue. I have no right to tell Jon
how to do anything in life, but I would not be me if I didn=92t tell him
my opinion. He is a Good friend and I truly believe that he is really
doing a great service for all Zenith builders with his HYPERLINK
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/"www.homebuilthelp.com service. But some
of his ad=92s just keep me shaking my head.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 32
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| Subject: | It's here Your Christmas list |
For those of you who have ordered something, how did it go? This is the
first weekend in the public domain and though I have tried it several
times and everything worked well , there are many different computer
configurations and I just want to be sure that everything Is nice and
smooth.
Did anyone show the site to there wives? Any comments?
Even If your not interested, did you get a chance to look it over?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
HYPERLINK "http://can-zacaviation.promoshop.com/default.aspx"
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft Company Apparel
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft Company are proud to present our
new Logo Wear. We carry polo shirts, fleece and jackets with the Can-Zac
Aviation or Zenith Aircraft Company logo as well as a selection of
accessories.
We've made ordering even easier - you are only a click away from your
new Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft Company Logo Wear with our new
online ordering system.
The Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft Company Online Store
Commitment:
To provide Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft Company authentic
apparel to our employees, partners and our community. Each item has been
selected for durability and popularity. They are guaranteed against
defects in material, workmanship and quality. All of our logoed clothing
carries the registered trademark logo of Can-Zac Aviation or Zenith
Aircraft Company.
HYPERLINK "http://can-zacaviation.promoshop.com/"Click here for the
store Let your family know for Christmas
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
10/4/2007 5:03 PM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: It's here Your Christmas list |
Hey Mark it worked just fine..confirmation kickback was quick too. We especially
liked the watermark of the HBH lady ! [Wink]
--------
Low & Slow
Rick
www.n701rr.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146934#146934
Message 34
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| Subject: | It's here Your Christmas list |
Sure did. I even selected what I wanted and put it in the shopping basket
along with instructions for my N number to be embroidered. Then I left the
browser on that screen all day. It was promptly ignored by my wife :-(
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs at satx.rr.com
Did anyone show the site to there wives? Any comments?
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
Scott, I mounted the ELT behind the passenger seat on the floor. The
antenna is attached to the belly below the passenger seat.
Chuck Maggart
XL/Jabiru/awaiting ABDAR insp.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
OPPS! A senior moment. I mounted the ELT antenna on top of the
fuselage (not below the passenger seat) slightly forward of the rudder
and at least three feet away from the com antenna which is farther
forward. The transponder antenna is below the passenger seat. With the
ELT behind the passenger seat I can reach it for servicing or to flip
switches. With the Jabiru engine I need to keep the heavy weight
options as far forward as possible.
Chuck M.
Message 37
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| Subject: | It's here Your Christmas list |
Randy,
At least she was prompt about it!! :-)
Dave
North Branch
Randy Stout <n282rs@satx.rr.com> wrote: Message
v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:*
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Sure did. I even selected what I wanted and put it in the shopping
basket along with instructions for my N number to be embroidered. Then I
left the browser on that screen all day. It was promptly ignored by my wife
:-(
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs at satx.rr.com
Did anyone show the site to there wives? Any comments?
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: It's here Your Christmas list |
Ant dealer's in U.S.A. ? Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: ZodieRocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: It's here Your Christmas list
For those of you who have ordered something, how did it go? This is
the first weekend in the public domain and though I have tried it
several times and everything worked well , there are many different
computer configurations and I just want to be sure that everything Is
nice and smooth.
Did anyone show the site to there wives? Any comments?
Even If your not interested, did you get a chance to look it over?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Apparel
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company are proud to present our new Logo Wear. We carry polo shirts,
fleece and jackets with the Can-Zac Aviation or Zenith Aircraft Company
logo as well as a selection of accessories.
We've made ordering even easier - you
are only a click away from your new Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Logo Wear with our new online ordering system.
The Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Online Store Commitment:
To provide Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith
Aircraft Company authentic apparel to our employees, partners and our
community. Each item has been selected for durability and popularity.
They are guaranteed against defects in material, workmanship and
quality. All of our logoed clothing carries the registered trademark
logo of Can-Zac Aviation or Zenith Aircraft Company.
Click here for the store Let your family
know for Christmas
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
10/4/2007 5:03 PM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
Is an OLPHA knife simply a "razor blade knife" or some special kind
razor blade knife or something else. I use a shear for mine but have
used razor blade knifes for hose siding work. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Olechowski
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
<ifly4fun2@sbcglobal.net>
Thanks Jean-Paul I will do so.
Art
--- Jean-Paul Roy <royjp@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Art, take a look at the DVD from Homebuilthelp dot com about scratch
building. The scene is made
> by David Barth (if I recall) about cutting with an Olpha knife using
a strait edge.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Jean-Paul Roy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean-Paul Roy
> royjp@yahoo.ca
> T=E9l: (819)949-2216
> Cell:(819)629-9360
>
> ---------------------------------
> Pour No=EBl, offrez un compte Flickr Pro =E0 vos amis et =E0 votre
famille. Allez-y!
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores.
Carlos
On 18/11/2007, Bob Unternaehrer <shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
>
> Is an OLPHA knife simply a "razor blade knife" or some special kind razor
> blade knife or something else. I use a shear for mine but have used razor
> blade knifes for hose siding work. Bob U.
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. |
Once again, I feel a need to share the knowledge I learned in a
career as an engineer designing stuff for high volume
manufacturing. I hope I can put an end to the petty bickering which
has been going on for, in my opinion, too long on the subject of
intellectual property and what is right and what is not.
I don't know how this plays out in Canada or any other country, but
in the USA we have a system of laws covering this whole subject. We
also have herds of lawyers who specialize in this subject. It is an
area of law which has been around as long as the industrial
revolution and perhaps longer. We don't need to reinvent this concept.
To my knowledge there are three, and only three, mechanisms used to
protect intellectual property in the USA. They are patents,
trademarks, and copyrights. Of these three, I believe only patents
could be applied to airplane parts and the designs for those
parts. To earn a patent, the designer must show he created the
design and that it has not been designed by anyone anywhere
before. It used to be necessary to prove that the design actually
works, but that is no longer the case. If the patent office, a
government agency, grants a patent then the owner can enforce the
patent - that is, he can stop others from making the stuff he
invented. This only works for a limited time - I think it is 14
years, but there are exceptions to the time limits.
Since all the ideas that make up an airplane and its parts were
invented long before any of us (including Chris Heintz) were born,
there can be no patents on any of the stuff in these planes. Perhaps
there are a few small things, like the hingeless aileron, used in
these designs that could be patented, but I am not aware of any such
patents in existence.
It is conceivable that Zenith or Zenair could apply their trademark
to the parts they sell. That would prevent others from making
identical parts since the trademark can be protected. Unfortunately,
that would also mean their trademark would appear on the crash
remains of any plane built with their parts and readily available for
the herds of lawyers going over such remains looking for somebody to sue.
I suppose the plans themselves could be copyrighted. That would
prevent making exact copies of the drawings. It would not prevent
anyone from making millions of parts from the drawings. Of course,
the copyright owner must take anyone violating the copyright to court
to get any penalty imposed. It doesn't really prevent copying, just
makes recovery of losses available to the copyright owner.
All of the nice ideas proposed by Mark and others suggesting there is
something wrong with anyone copying the designs presented by Chirs,
Zenith, or Zenair are simply wrong. While they are offered in good
faith and probably seem to make sense, they have absolutely no
foundation in law.
I realize it would be nice if the fine work done by the Zenith group
of manufacturers and representatives could be protected from others
who want to copy some of the work. Unfortunately, there just isn't
any legal way to do that. The only protection available to any of
these folks is to establish a good reputation and publicize that
reputation to potential buyers.
It is a tough and cruel world out there.
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: RE:promoshop |
SEX SELLS, right.
----- Original Message -----
From: ZodieRocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE:promoshop
Guy=92s and Jon I am sorry, I thought that that reply was going to Jon
directly. Jon knows my opinion of some of his ad=92s especially the one
that was in the back of the Wicks Catalogue. I have no right to tell Jon
how to do anything in life, but I would not be me if I didn=92t tell him
my opinion. He is a Good friend and I truly believe that he is really
doing a great service for all Zenith builders with his
www.homebuilthelp.com service. But some of his ad=92s just keep me
shaking my head.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL ELT position |
The main gear isn't likely to collapse..... bend, maybe but colapse? The ELT in
that case isn't going to be very helpful, if you get my drift.
What will collapse in an off-field landing (crash) is usually the nosegear.
When it folds, the plane ususally noses over onto its back, hence the external
antenna on the bottom would now be facing up.
The taildraggger has a fair chance of staying upright with more of its weight behind
the mains.In that case the antenna still works okay on the bottom of the
plane. It's all pretty much a crapshoot in which we try to go with the odds.
Dred
isn't the ELT antenna supposed to go on the top
> side of the fuselage so that it can broadcast in the
> event of a crash. Being on the bottom of the fuse,
> would it not get knocked off in the event of a crash
> that collapses the gear?
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> NW Ontario, Canada
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware
store doesn't have one.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Sa
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores.
Carlos
On 18/11/2007, Bob Unternaehrer < shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
Is an OLPHA knife simply a "razor blade knife" or some special kind
razor blade knife or something else. I use a shear for mine but have
used razor blade knifes for hose siding work. Bob U.
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: It's here Your Christmas list |
what's the exchange rate now for Canada? seems like it was 1:1 or maybe
even negative for the dollar. bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: ZodieRocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: It's here Your Christmas list
For those of you who have ordered something, how did it go? This is
the first weekend in the public domain and though I have tried it
several times and everything worked well , there are many different
computer configurations and I just want to be sure that everything Is
nice and smooth.
Did anyone show the site to there wives? Any comments?
Even If your not interested, did you get a chance to look it over?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Apparel
Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company are proud to present our new Logo Wear. We carry polo shirts,
fleece and jackets with the Can-Zac Aviation or Zenith Aircraft Company
logo as well as a selection of accessories.
We've made ordering even easier - you
are only a click away from your new Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Logo Wear with our new online ordering system.
The Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith Aircraft
Company Online Store Commitment:
To provide Can-Zac Aviation and Zenith
Aircraft Company authentic apparel to our employees, partners and our
community. Each item has been selected for durability and popularity.
They are guaranteed against defects in material, workmanship and
quality. All of our logoed clothing carries the registered trademark
logo of Can-Zac Aviation or Zenith Aircraft Company.
Click here for the store Let your family
know for Christmas
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
10/4/2007 5:03 PM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/16/2007 9:52 AM
11/17/2007 2:55 PM
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
I'm going to make this short and sweet, I know what I signed when I sent my buyer
agreement in. Even if I hadn't signed an agreement I wouldn't be so low as
to make money off the sweat of others. I drove 1400 miles in a three day period
to visit the Zenith factory. After visiting with them I have a much greater
appreciation for the folks there. They are feeding their families out of that
factory. I scratchbuilt my 701 because I didn't have the money to buy the kit
but when I needed something I turned to them first. Nothing I ordered took more
than TWO working days to get.
With that said, I have been asked all month for a donation to support this list.
In 13 months of building I have been helped ONE time but still enjoyed reading
some of the posts. But I will no longer pay to read this crap. I'll be over
on the Yahoo group until this B.S. starts there. Matt, I hate it for you as I
know you mean well and it is a lot of work but I can't pay to support this. Man,
what is the world coming to?
Wayne
In a message dated 11/18/07 13:17:30 Eastern Standard Time, wr.giacona@suddenlink.net
writes:
>From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it) for
recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the Drawings
serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft.
The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate,
c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written
permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals,
and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty. During
the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and installations to
be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority (FAA)
prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of any
Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146911#146911
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
I got mine on e-Bay IIRC for about 8 bucks>
George Majewski
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Unternaehrer
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware store doesn't
have one.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Sa
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores.
Carlos
On 18/11/2007, Bob Unternaehrer < shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
Is an OLPHA knife simply a "razor blade knife" or some special kind razor
blade knife or something else. I use a shear for mine but have used razor blade
knifes for hose siding work. Bob U.
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
Bob,
I found it online at OLFABLADES.COM and got extra blades and another
knife to get more bang for buck on the shipping cost. It is listed as
a heavy-duty plastic/laminate cutter with a current Sale Price of
$8.48. Their minimum order has to be $15 and shipping would be about $8
for that. Of course, today it would cost me that much in gas to drive
to a store which might carry an OLFA knife. Hope this helps.
Al
On Nov 18, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote:
> I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware
> store doesn'thave one.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Carlos Sa
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
>>
>> Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores.
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
Bob,
I'd say your first guess ("razor blade knife") is right.. It's a good
quality utility type knife, excellent for scoring laminates (and in our
application, for aluminum), with blades that won't snap/break as easily
as those of the more common cheap utility knife.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Unternaehrer
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware
store doesn't have one.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Sa
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools
Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores.
Carlos
On 18/11/2007, Bob Unternaehrer < shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
Is an OLPHA knife simply a "razor blade knife" or some special
kind razor blade knife or something else. I use a shear for mine but
have used razor blade knifes for hose siding work. Bob U.
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools - Olfa P-cutter 800 |
Bob, Olfa is a brand of utility cutter. They produce
several different models. The most common are the
small (about 3/4") snap off blade razor knife and the
large razor knife (about 1").
The P-800 that we are using for straight and slightly
curved cuts is primarily designed for scoring acrylic
sheet. I am away from home otherwise I would attach a
picture. The scoring tip of the blade is not really
all that sharp. Not like a razor knife. It is kind
of at backwards angle. Here is the link to the Olfa
website
http://www.olfa.com/utilityknivesdetail.aspx?c=35&id=58
Hope it works. If not, go to the Olfa main page and
search the P-800. Thats what I did to get the link.
You can buy it right from there.
The blade is tungsten carbide or some such material
and I have used one blade so far and it still cuts
like new. My fuse is on the gear and the tail is
ready for mounting and the wing skeletons are made
(just to give you an idea about how much alum it has
cut)
Hope this info helps
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
do not archive
--- Bob Unternaehrer <shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
> I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our
> country hardware store doesn't have one.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. |
A pattent is good for 17 years or 21 years from the date of filling...
Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@ATT.NET>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.
>
> Once again, I feel a need to share the knowledge I learned in a career as
> an engineer designing stuff for high volume manufacturing. I hope I can
> put an end to the petty bickering which has been going on for, in my
> opinion, too long on the subject of intellectual property and what is
> right and what is not.
>
> I don't know how this plays out in Canada or any other country, but in the
> USA we have a system of laws covering this whole subject. We also have
> herds of lawyers who specialize in this subject. It is an area of law
> which has been around as long as the industrial revolution and perhaps
> longer. We don't need to reinvent this concept.
>
> To my knowledge there are three, and only three, mechanisms used to
> protect intellectual property in the USA. They are patents, trademarks,
> and copyrights. Of these three, I believe only patents could be applied
> to airplane parts and the designs for those parts. To earn a patent, the
> designer must show he created the design and that it has not been designed
> by anyone anywhere before. It used to be necessary to prove that the
> design actually works, but that is no longer the case. If the patent
> office, a government agency, grants a patent then the owner can enforce
> the patent - that is, he can stop others from making the stuff he
> invented. This only works for a limited time - I think it is 14 years,
> but there are exceptions to the time limits.
>
> Since all the ideas that make up an airplane and its parts were invented
> long before any of us (including Chris Heintz) were born, there can be no
> patents on any of the stuff in these planes. Perhaps there are a few
> small things, like the hingeless aileron, used in these designs that could
> be patented, but I am not aware of any such patents in existence.
>
> It is conceivable that Zenith or Zenair could apply their trademark to the
> parts they sell. That would prevent others from making identical parts
> since the trademark can be protected. Unfortunately, that would also mean
> their trademark would appear on the crash remains of any plane built with
> their parts and readily available for the herds of lawyers going over such
> remains looking for somebody to sue.
>
> I suppose the plans themselves could be copyrighted. That would prevent
> making exact copies of the drawings. It would not prevent anyone from
> making millions of parts from the drawings. Of course, the copyright
> owner must take anyone violating the copyright to court to get any penalty
> imposed. It doesn't really prevent copying, just makes recovery of losses
> available to the copyright owner.
>
> All of the nice ideas proposed by Mark and others suggesting there is
> something wrong with anyone copying the designs presented by Chirs,
> Zenith, or Zenair are simply wrong. While they are offered in good faith
> and probably seem to make sense, they have absolutely no foundation in
> law.
>
> I realize it would be nice if the fine work done by the Zenith group of
> manufacturers and representatives could be protected from others who want
> to copy some of the work. Unfortunately, there just isn't any legal way
> to do that. The only protection available to any of these folks is to
> establish a good reputation and publicize that reputation to potential
> buyers.
>
> It is a tough and cruel world out there.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: of wrath and rants... |
This thread is a chicken or the egg debate. Many feel that if they bought
the plans they have the right to buy or build the part the plans call for. And
some feel if you buy that part you are in some way violating Zenith's rights.
I think both sides are right. I don't make parts or sell them but if
someone asked me to make them a part and they had a set of plans I wouldn't have
a
problem with that. But I wouldn't however make that part and just advertise
it for sale that would be wrong. I see no difference in a person that doesn't
have a welder asking a welding shop to do all the welding on his parts they
made.
To take this to the extreme say the builder cut all the pieces for his wing
tanks and then sent them to zenith for welding.... Would they do it for the
builder? A lot of builders don't have roll forms, welders, shears, and the
tools it requires to make some of these parts but in Mark's posts he seems to
imply that if someone makes the 1 part for someone it should be done for free
in the sprite of aviation but what he didn't take into account is the money it
costs to buy these tools or the time it takes to make these parts. As I said
Chicken or egg.
I have told people that want me to scratch build planes (With a builder #)
that some parts I would make myself but the parts I didn't I would buy from
zenith even if the cost was higher because I want to be sure what I am buying
is # 1 safe and # 2 the proper material. # 3 To support Zenith .
That even goes for Todd's canopy. What I save in money is most of the time
eaten up in the time it takes to make it fit.
This post was started to warn builders about Tom Henderson and I have no
idea how we got here.
Jeff
601xl factory Kit
In a message dated 11/18/2007 8:29:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rclaggf4u@aol.com writes:
I'm going to make this short and sweet, I know what I signed when I sent my
buyer agreement in. Even if I hadn't signed an agreement I wouldn't be so low
as to make money off the sweat of others. I drove 1400 miles in a three day
period to visit the Zenith factory. After visiting with them I have a much
greater appreciation for the folks there. They are feeding their families out
of that factory. I scratchbuilt my 701 because I didn't have the money to buy
the kit but when I needed something I turned to them first. Nothing I ordered
took more than TWO working days to get.
With that said, I have been asked all month for a donation to support this
list. In 13 months of building I have been helped ONE time but still enjoyed
reading some of the posts. But I will no longer pay to read this crap. I'll be
over on the Yahoo group until this B.S. starts there. Matt, I hate it for
you as I know you mean well and it is a lot of work but I can't pay to support
this. Man, what is the world coming to?
Wayne
In a message dated 11/18/07 13:17:30 Eastern Standard Time,
wr.giacona@suddenlink.net writes:
<wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it)
for recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the
Drawings serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the
aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts
contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b)
Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d)
Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the
written permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings,
manuals, and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty.
During the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and
installations to be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority
(FAA) prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight,
etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of
any Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or
not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146911#146911
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
I bought mine at Home Depot.
Dino
On Nov 18, 2007 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer <shilocom@mcmsys.com> wrote:
>
>
> I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware store
> doesn't have one.
>
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. |
There is another class of patent and that is patents of design. These
patents are granted for the "look" of a product so I believe that if one were to
copy any part of a Zenith design it is possible that there is infringement. Just
my opinion as a retired engineer with several of these types of patent.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts. |
Hi John,
Yes, I've heard of that kind of patent. In order to work, Zenith
would have to apply for the patent. If they have done so, they
certainly haven't published that fact. Even if they had it, the
slightest change in the design (like the kind the Zenith engineers
seem to do all the time) would invalidate the patent or require a new one.
I'm afraid the whole mess we are having with this discussion comes
from a misunderstanding many people have. They learn in school that
copying someone else's work is "Plagiarism" and something wrong and
shameful. While this may be true in the educational community, the
world of product engineering is not the same. In engineering,
copying someone else's work is considered high praise and generally
rewarded. An engineer's job is not to create entirely new stuff. It
is to create the ideal solution for a given problem using all
existing knowledge and previous design work to its best advantage.
I am sorry there is so much hard feeling around this issue. This
isn't a new argument, and I suppose it won't ever go away.
Paul
At 08:51 PM 11/18/2007, you wrote:
>There is another class of patent and that is patents of design.
>These patents are granted for the "look" of a product so I believe
>that if one were to copy any part of a Zenith design it is possible
>that there is infringement. Just my opinion as a retired engineer
>with several of these types of patent.
>
>John Read
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Scratchbuilding Tools |
I just bought mine on eBay for $9.xx plus shipping for a total of $11.xx,
seem to me more where that one coame from.
Cheers,
Bob Archibald
Dragonfly Aviation
CH-601xl, Lyc 125hp, Dynons
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