---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/20/07: 55 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:12 AM - [Please Read] Why I Have A Fund Raiser... (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:00 AM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Brad Cohen) 2. 03:08 AM - Re: 701 Build time (rroberts) 3. 04:10 AM - Re: Free forming sheet metal (kmccune) 4. 05:19 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (steve) 5. 05:31 AM - Re: Free forming sheet metal (MacDonald Doug) 6. 05:32 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 05:39 AM - Elevator Control Friction (countzero) 8. 05:53 AM - Re: Quick Question About 601XL Z-angles (Paul Mulwitz) 9. 06:19 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Pete Krotje) 10. 06:43 AM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (LarryMcFarland) 11. 06:46 AM - Re: Taildragger (Aaron Gustafson) 12. 06:54 AM - Re: Roll over protection (Aaron Gustafson) 13. 07:01 AM - Re: Roll over protection (Gig Giacona) 14. 07:20 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 15. 07:40 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (T. Graziano) 16. 08:21 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 17. 09:13 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Randy) 18. 09:30 AM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Terry Phillips) 19. 10:52 AM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Art Olechowski) 20. 11:02 AM - RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (DaveG601XL) 21. 01:05 PM - Re: Roll over protection (Terry Phillips) 22. 01:09 PM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (T. Graziano) 23. 01:11 PM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (T. Graziano) 24. 01:33 PM - Re: Elevator Control Friction (Martin Pohl) 25. 01:44 PM - Re: Roll over protection (Gig Giacona) 26. 01:50 PM - Emailing: tommy929 004 (steve) 27. 02:01 PM - Re: Roll over protection (Jaybannist@cs.com) 28. 02:13 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools () 29. 02:55 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (LarryMcFarland) 30. 03:18 PM - Re: of wrath and rants... (secatur) 31. 03:26 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Terry Turnquist) 32. 03:32 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Paul Riedlinger) 33. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: of wrath and rants... (dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle)) 34. 03:52 PM - Re: 701 Arm rest/console (kmccune) 35. 04:10 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Al Hays) 36. 04:17 PM - 4130N-or-not-N (Flydog1966@aol.com) 37. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Roll over protection (David Downey) 38. 04:45 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Ron Culver) 39. 05:06 PM - Re: ELT Position. (leinad) 40. 05:10 PM - Re: RE : Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Graeme) 41. 05:15 PM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 42. 05:16 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Art Olechowski) 43. 05:34 PM - 701 Build Time (Dan) 44. 05:55 PM - Re: 4130N-or-not-N (LarryMcFarland) 45. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: Cost of scratch build versus kit build (Ron Lalonde) 46. 06:55 PM - Re: Hello all... (Joshua) 47. 07:45 PM - Re: Free forming sheet metal (Ron Lendon) 48. 07:45 PM - Glass Panels (Andrew Hinsdale) 49. 08:01 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Paul Riedlinger) 50. 08:24 PM - Re: Glass Panels (craig@craigandjean.com) 51. 08:32 PM - Re: Taildragger (Brad Cohen) 52. 09:54 PM - Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (mosquito56) 53. 10:09 PM - Re: Glass Panels (Paul Mulwitz) 54. 11:16 PM - Re: Glass Panels (DRAGONFUEL@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:34 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: [Please Read] Why I Have A Fund Raiser... Dear Listers, Each year I like to explain why I have a Fund Raiser and also take the opportunity to express why I think the List Services here provide a superior experience over the commercial equivalents. I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with running a high performance email list site such as this one. With the annual support from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I have found I can run the entire site without having to inflect any of the members with those annoying banner ads flashing up all the time trying to sell little-blue-pills or other garbage nobody wants or needs. From the comments I've received over the years regarding the Lists, the great majority of the members really appreciate the non-commercialism of my List systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter once a year during November to encourage members to support the Lists. I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer many benefits over the commercial equivalents in a number of ways. The first feature I believe to be significant is that you cannot receive a computer v*rus from any of these Lists directly. Each incoming message is filtered and dangerous attachments stripped off prior to posting. I also provide a Photo and File Share feature that allows members to share files and bitmaps with other members and everyone can be assured that these files will be prescanned for any sort of v*rus before they are posted. More recently, I have enabled limited posting of a number of file formats including pictures and PDFs. Another very important feature of this system in my opinion is the extensive List Archives that are available for download, browsing, and searching. The Archives go all the way back to the very beginning of each List and with the very fast Search Engine, the huge size of some of the Archives is a non-issue in quickly finding the data you're looking for. And added just a couple of years ago is the new Email List Forum that allows members who prefer the Web BBS-style of List interaction. The beauty of the new List Forums is that they contain the exact same content that is distributed via email. Messages posted via email are cross-posted to the respective Forum and vice versa. The Forums also allow for another convenient method of sharing pictures and other files (http://forums.matronics.com ). Additionally, added recently is the List Wiki that allows members to build their own "Online List Encyclopedia" of sorts, documenting various aspects of their project for all to share ( http://wiki.matronics.com ). I've been running email Lists and services under the matronics.com domain since about 1989 starting with RV-List and 30 guys I knew and who where also building RVs. It has grown into nearly 70 different aviation-related Email Lists and an associated web site that receives over 34,000,000 hits each year!! Additionally, the List Email system forwarded well over 77,000 postings last year, accounting for an unbelievable 33,000,000 (yes, that's 33 MILLION) email messages delivered to Matronics List subscribers! I think there's a lot of value in supporting a service that has gone the long haul and is still providing and improving a high quality service all _without any advertising budget_! I have to admit running these Lists is a labor of love and I hope it shows in the quality of the experience that you receive when you get a List Email Message, Search the Archives, use the List Browser, or surf the Forums and Wiki sites. The Lists will be here for a long time to come. If you just want to lurk a while for free, that's great and I encourage you to do so. If you use, appreciate, and receive value from these Lists, then please support them during the Annual List Fund Raiser! List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:00 AM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Art, If the gap is symmetrical to the centerline of flight (eg; the aircraft) and it is securely riveted to both sides of the ribs, I would say that you shouldn't sweat it. I cant imagine that it will affect the flight characteristics that mush to have the rudder 1.5mm longer than specs. The only thing I can think of is yo might have to adjust the position of the saddle much much much later in your build. Brad Cohen XL/TD >From: Art Olechowski >To: Zenith Matornics list >Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:05:25 -0800 (PST) > > >He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled >the holes through spar >and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of >the skin. But when I >overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both >nose ribs contain about a >1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in >flanges. Have any of you >experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > >Thanks, >Art >701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Build time From: "rroberts" Yep, me too: Started 5/26/04 Completed 10/07/07 (my fault) airframe hours 1027, powerplant hours 45, other 93 for a total of 1194 hours. BUT...I guess there's 1/4 to 1/2 that time I probably didn't log. There's no column in my Builder's Log tor pondering... [Shocked] -------- Low & Slow Rick www.n701rr.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147430#147430 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Free forming sheet metal From: "kmccune" Very nice! I've been wondering about those English wheel! Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147436#147436 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:08 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:38 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Free forming sheet metal Hey Ron, really nice looking work. Quick question though, is it common to use 6061-T6 for metalworking like that? I was under the impression that a softer alloy was preferable. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada --- Ron Lendon wrote: > > > A friend asked if I could make a scoop to replace > the one on his 1946 Fairchild. I used a shot bag, > english wheel, planishing hammer and various hammers > to shape a flat piece of .040 6061-T6. Here is a > link to some pictures of the first attempt. > > http://picasaweb.google.com/ron.lendon/FoxFairchild > > Do not archive > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI > Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:21 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend His CHT's are all over the place most of the time well over 305. he has tried 3 different baffle kits and has an a&p doing all the work but still can't get the CHT's anywhere close to each other. That is one engine I would have nothing to do with and I am not saying that because it isn't a Lycoming or continental because I have 5 corvair's, it's just that a lot of builders can't make the damn thing run cool. I guess they can justify the price increase because it is one hot engine. LOL Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 8:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ____________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http:// forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction From: "countzero" UK built XLs have a mandatory modification to replace the existing fairlead on the fuselage frame with a pulley wheel mounted on fabricated brackets to reduce the friction in the elevator control circuit. Just a question for UK builders; can anyone tell me the thickness of the sheet I should use or you used for the brackets? Rob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147445#147445 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:24 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question About 601XL Z-angles Hi Doug, On my XL, the Z angles are only used around the fuselage bottom door. I think the reason they give you extra pieces is because there was (is?) a mistake on one of the drawings that shows the most forward Z oriented backwards. I used up some of my stock to replace that part after installing it the way the wrong drawing showed and then used the rest of the stock finishing the door edging. I wrote to ZAC to ask where it was also used to see if I needed to order more, and got the response that it was only used there. Paul XL fuselage At 06:16 PM 11/19/2007, you wrote: > >I'm placing an order for some parts from Zenith and realized, there >seems to be a discrepancy (or I'm looking in the wrong place). > >Page 6B1 lists 6 pieces of Z-angle required. For the life of me, I >can't see where more than 4 pieces are required (around the bottom >hatch). Where else is this stuff used? > >Someone straighten this confused soul out, please. > >Doug ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:15 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we've sold well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool well in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend His CHT's are all over the place most of the time well over 305. he has tried 3 different baffle kits and has an a&p doing all the work but still can't get the CHT's anywhere close to each other. That is one engine I would have nothing to do with and I am not saying that because it isn't a Lycoming or continental because I have 5 corvair's, it's just that a lot of builders can't make the damn thing run cool. I guess they can justify the price increase because it is one hot engine. LOL Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 8:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com _____ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:17 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Art, One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and cleco check the result. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Art Olechowski wrote: > > He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through spar > and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But when I > overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain about a > 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any of you > experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > > Thanks, > Art > 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:32 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger There are changes in the forward fuselage and the wing stubs for the tail dragger. Aaron 601 HDTD 40+ hours ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:03 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Roll over protection I put roll over protection in my HD but it involved changing the turtle deck. One plus side though was that I did not buy a $1000 canopy but made my own from unbreakable and easily replaceable Lexan for less than $100. Aaron Gustafson http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/AGCB2/My%20601%20HDTD/E-1stlanding wave.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Roll over protection From: "Gig Giacona" Do you have some more photos of your canopy that you could post or mail to me off list? agustafson(at)chartermi.n wrote: > I put roll over protection in my HD but it involved changing the turtle deck. One plus side though was that I did not buy a $1000 canopy but made my own from unbreakable and easily replaceable Lexan for less than $100. > > Aaron Gustafson > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147468#147468 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:14 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend That's funny you say that because I have talked to a lot of Jab. owners wit h the 601 and hear the same story time and time again. The one thing I hear most is # 6 is over 350. I think I know what the problem is and when I get i t here I will see if I'm correct but to say the Jab. 3300 doesn't run hot is a stretch and to say it is hard to keep it warm enough is really a stretch. I' m only talking about the 601xl also I don't know about other planes. I do kno w from talking to Sabastion that one other water cooled power plant in the 60 1 had a problem cooling also. In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:20:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we=99ve sol d well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool wel l in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol .com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend His CHT's are all over the place most of the time well over 305. he has tried 3 different baffle kits and has an a&p doing all the work but still c an't get the CHT's anywhere close to each other. That is one engine I would have nothing to do with and I am not saying that because it isn't a Lycoming or continental because I have 5 corvair's, it's just that a lot of builders ca n't make the damn thing run cool. I guess they can justify the price increase because it is one hot engine. LOL Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 8:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never cou ld get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range .. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wron g location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to mee t some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotj e and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who' s airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for a n updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installa tion is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for update s from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site j ust last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ____________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://f orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.co m/Na vigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ____________________________________ _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ ator = uch much (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) great content (http://forums.matronics.com/) =========== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:05 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Have 320 hrs on my Jab in my XL. Have last gen cowling and engine. New engines have more cooling fin area, changed ram air ducts, and latest cowling has been redesigned - for more cooliing. Recommend to you friend that if the standard recommended Jab deflectors in the ram air ducts do not give him the cooling he needs (In mine, I could not keep full power in a steep climb in high OAT for very long without approaching red line on CHT) then have him see JSB 015 -1. I added about a 30mm extension to the lower lip of my cowling. At high OAT (mid to high 90s F) I can now climb out at a higher angle for a much much longer time at high power. Tony Graziano; N493TG/Jab 3300 ----------- Time: 09:07:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:31 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend He added the lip to the lower cowling but it did very little. He also has the Cowling from zenith for the Jab. I haven't seen it but it is coming my way on a trailer so I can try and fix it or replace it with a corvair. And I disagree with Pete, baffling isn't rocket science there are thousands of planes out their flying and most of the builders never made baffling before and they don't have this problem, I want to tare down the engine and check the tolerances of the cylinders and see if there was or is a problem with the machining. I also think a lower baffle under the jugs is the answer. Lycoming has them continental has them and I know if you don't put them on the corvair it will over heat also I was told they don't have them I don't know never studied one very close. Another problem is the fins I believe are smooth and rough fins cool better. Sand blasting them might help. It is a simple matter of not only getting the air where you need it but keeping it there long enough to allow the heat to transfer and smooth fins don't disturb the air that flows over it. It is apparent to me that they knew they had a cooling problem otherwise they wouldn't have added more fins would they. Don't take this the wrong way I would like to help try and find an answer to this problem and I am in no way saying Jab is a bad engine or trying to start a pissing contest with Jab. but to put your head in the sand and say there is no problem is doing a disservice to not only themselves but every builder that supports them and buys their engine. In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:46:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tonyplane@bellsouth.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" Have 320 hrs on my Jab in my XL. Have last gen cowling and engine. New engines have more cooling fin area, changed ram air ducts, and latest cowling has been redesigned - for more cooliing. Recommend to you friend that if the standard recommended Jab deflectors in the ram air ducts do not give him the cooling he needs (In mine, I could not keep full power in a steep climb in high OAT for very long without approaching red line on CHT) then have him see JSB 015 -1. I added about a 30mm extension to the lower lip of my cowling. At high OAT (mid to high 90s F) I can now climb out at a higher angle for a much much longer time at high power. Tony Graziano; N493TG/Jab 3300 ----------- Time: 09:07:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:29 AM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have to agree with Pete. I live in Wisconsin and in summer I hardly ever get a CHT reading over 300F. Now that the onset of winter is coming I have to add some deflectors to keep the temperatures higher. I flew the other day, 25 degrees, and a couple of cylinders were between 160 and 180 degrees. I have the older style 3300 without the additional cooling fins. I also have the older style RAM air cooling ducts with the ignition wires on the outside. My installation is exactly like JabirueUSA suggests. I added deflectors, inside the RAM air ducts, so air would flow through the middle two and last two cylinders. If anything, I would like to know what people of done (who fly in cold weather) to keep their CHT's higher. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend That's funny you say that because I have talked to a lot of Jab. owners with the 601 and hear the same story time and time again. The one thing I hear most is # 6 is over 350. I think I know what the problem is and when I get it here I will see if I'm correct but to say the Jab. 3300 doesn't run hot is a stretch and to say it is hard to keep it warm enough is really a stretch. I'm only talking about the 601xl also I don't know about other planes. I do know from talking to Sabastion that one other water cooled power plant in the 601 had a problem cooling also. In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:20:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we=99ve sold well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool well in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:30 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend His CHT's are all over the place most of the time well over 305. he has tried 3 different baffle kits and has an a&p doing all the work but still can't get the CHT's anywhere close to each other. That is one engine I would have nothing to do with and I am not saying that because it isn't a Lycoming or continental because I have 5 corvair's, it's just that a lot of builders can't make the damn thing run cool. I guess they can justify the price increase because it is one hot engine. LOL Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 8:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributionf ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Zenith-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- http://www.matronics.com/contribution List Admin. to rchive much st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List -= --> http://forums.matronics.com ============ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:48 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools I've hung back w/o adding yet another source, but, I guess I'll go ahead. I bought mine from http://rjrcooltools.com/ It was $8 with no shipping charges; prompt and courteous service. RJR appears to be a small business that supplies high quality tools for modelers. The owner was surprised that I was going to use it to cut aluminum, but he has since added that to his product description. I have no connection with RJR, other than as a satisfied customer. Terry At 06:41 PM 11/19/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Check in art/craft supply stores. None of my local hardware stores carry >the Olfa P-800 but most of the craft stores do. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL Plans >Miami Florida Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:45 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Larry, Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of the spar? Art --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > Art, > One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. > Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and > cleco check the result. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through > spar > > and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But > when I > > overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain > about a > > 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any of > you > > experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > > > > > Thanks, > > Art > > 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: RE : RE: Scratchbuilding Tools From: "DaveG601XL" I second Bryan's remark. After looking for an Olfa 800 for a while with no luck, I realized that I got satisfactory results from just a plain old utility knife. I have found that I cut way more aluminum with a knife that with shears. Before starting this project, I would not have thought that was possible. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147526#147526 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:29 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Roll over protection I hate to ask a really dumb question, but ... Just what is a "turtle deck," and why is it call that? Thanks. do not archive Terry At 08:53 AM 11/20/2007 -0600, you wrote: >I put roll over protection in my HD but it involved changing the turtle >deck. One plus side though was that I did not buy a $1000 canopy but made >my own from unbreakable and easily replaceable Lexan for less than $100. > >Aaron Gustafson Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:32 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Again, The only time I have had a problem was when I would try climbing at high power and low airspeed (high angle of attack) on a HOT day, for any extended period of time - after I installed deflectors in the ducts. The deflectors for #3 and #5 must be small, (about 3/4 inch flange X 2 to 3 inches at about 30/40 degree bend - experiment with them) or they will, in my experience, have a detrimental effect on cooling #5 and #5. I installed the extension to my cowling lower lip before the Jab SB and unless the day is REALLY HOT, I can climb out at full power continuously - (Not a normal operation for me though) My hottest cyl is usually #2. (the one in front on the left side) My cowling was part of the Jab FWF kit received in Nov 05, not the older one once provided through Zenith. It is not the latest improved one provided in the current Jab USA FWF kits. .. When it is cold out, about 50 deg F and below, I am usually careful descending and come down under power as all my CHTs go below 190F very easily. I have not flown on really cold days with the cowling extension - I should hope I will not have a too cold type problem. (You may have also heard that the Jab is hard to start on really cold days - NOT SO!. Just follow Jab USA's advice - it works, in my experience, down to 10F/ - 12C.) You may wish to check the prop on your friends airplane. If it is not a Sensenich Jab approved or Jab prop, there could be a major problem with getting enough air into the intakes. Also recommend check to see if the oil cooler opening is sealed sufficiently enough to pass most of the air through the cooler only. Tony Graziano XL with 321.2 really enjoyable flying hours behind a smooth running, easily maintained, Jab 3300 --------------- Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Date: Tue Nov 20 - 8:21 AM He added the lip to the lower cowling but it did very little. He also has the Cowling from zenith for the Jab. I haven't seen it but it is coming my way on a trailer so I can try and fix it or replace it with a corvair. And I disagree with Pete, baffling isn't rocket science there are thousands of planes out their flying and most of the builders never made baffling before and they don't have this problem, I want to tare down the engine and check the tolerances of the cylinders and see if there was or is a problem with the machining. I also think a lower baffle under the jugs is the answer. Lycoming has them continental has them and I know if you don't put them on the corvair it will over heat also I was told they don't have them I don't know never studied one very close. Another problem is the fins I believe are smooth and rough fins cool better. Sand blasting them might help. It is a simple matter of not only getting the air where you need it but keeping it there long enough to allow the heat to transfer and smooth fins don't disturb the air that flows over it. It is apparent to me that they knew they had a cooling problem otherwise they wouldn't have added more fins would they. Don't take this the wrong way I would like to help try and find an answer to this problem and I am in no way saying Jab is a bad engine or trying to start a pissing contest with Jab. but to put your head in the sand and say there is no problem is doing a disservice to not only themselves but every builder that supports them and buys their engine. In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:46:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tonyplane@bellsouth.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" Have 320 hrs on my Jab in my XL. Have last gen cowling and engine. New engines have more cooling fin area, changed ram air ducts, and latest cowling has been redesigned - for more cooliing. Recommend to you friend that if the standard recommended Jab deflectors in the ram air ducts do not give him the cooling he needs (In mine, I could not keep full power in a steep climb in high OAT for very long without approaching red line on CHT) then have him see JSB 015 -1. I added about a 30mm extension to the lower lip of my cowling. At high OAT (mid to high 90s F) I can now climb out at a higher angle for a much much longer time at high power. Tony Graziano; N493TG/Jab 3300Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend From: Randy (rpf@wi.rr.com) Date: Tue Nov 20 - 9:13 AM I have to agree with Pete. I live in Wisconsin and in summer I hardly ever get a CHT reading over 300F. Now that the onset of winter is coming I have to add some deflectors to keep the temperatures higher. I flew the other day, 25 degrees, and a couple of cylinders were between 160 and 180 degrees. I have the older style 3300 without the additional cooling fins. I also have the older style RAM air cooling ducts with the ignition wires on the outside. My installation is exactly like JabirueUSA suggests. I added deflectors, inside the RAM air ducts, so air would flow through the middle two and last two cylinders. If anything, I would like to know what people of done (who fly in cold weather) to keep their CHT's higher. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend That's funny you say that because I have talked to a lot of Jab. owners with the 601 and hear the same story time and time again. The one thing I hear most is # 6 is over 350. I think I know what the problem is and when I get it here I will see if I'm correct but to say the Jab. 3300 doesn't run hot is a stretch and to say it is hard to keep it warm enough is really a stretch. I'm only talking about the 601xl also I don't know about other planes. I do know from talking to Sabastion that one other water cooled power plant in the 601 had a problem cooling also. In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:20:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we=99ve sold well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool well in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete ----------- Time: 09:07:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:57 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend One minor correction - I received my cowling in Nov 04 vice 05. Tony Graziano ----- Original Message ----- From: T. Graziano To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Again, The only time I have had a problem was when I would try climbing at high power and low airspeed (high angle of attack) on a HOT day, for any extended period of time - after I installed deflectors in the ducts. The deflectors for #3 and #5 must be small, (about 3/4 inch flange X 2 to 3 inches at about 30/40 degree bend - experiment with them) or they will, in my experience, have a detrimental effect on cooling #5 and #5. I installed the extension to my cowling lower lip before the Jab SB and unless the day is REALLY HOT, I can climb out at full power continuously - (Not a normal operation for me though) My hottest cyl is usually #2. (the one in front on the left side) My cowling was part of the Jab FWF kit received in Nov 05, not the older one once provided through Zenith. It is not the latest improved one provided in the current Jab USA FWF kits. . When it is cold out, about 50 deg F and below, I am usually careful descending and come down under power as all my CHTs go below 190F very easily. I have not flown on really cold days with the cowling extension - I should hope I will not have a too cold type problem. (You may have also heard that the Jab is hard to start on really cold days - NOT SO!. Just follow Jab USA's advice - it works, in my experience, down to 10F/ - 12C.) You may wish to check the prop on your friends airplane. If it is not a Sensenich Jab approved or Jab prop, there could be a major problem with getting enough air into the intakes. Also recommend check to see if the oil cooler opening is sealed sufficiently enough to pass most of the air through the cooler only. Tony Graziano XL with 321.2 really enjoyable flying hours behind a smooth running, easily maintained, Jab 3300 --------------- Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Date: Tue Nov 20 - 8:21 AM He added the lip to the lower cowling but it did very little. He also has the Cowling from zenith for the Jab. I haven't seen it but it is coming my way on a trailer so I can try and fix it or replace it with a corvair. And I disagree with Pete, baffling isn't rocket science there are thousands of planes out their flying and most of the builders never made baffling before and they don't have this problem, I want to tare down the engine and check the tolerances of the cylinders and see if there was or is a problem with the machining. I also think a lower baffle under the jugs is the answer. Lycoming has them continental has them and I know if you don't put them on the corvair it will over heat also I was told they don't have them I don't know never studied one very close. Another problem is the fins I believe are smooth and rough fins cool better. Sand blasting them might help. It is a simple matter of not only getting the air where you need it but keeping it there long enough to allow the heat to transfer and smooth fins don't disturb the air that flows over it. It is apparent to me that they knew they had a cooling problem otherwise they wouldn't have added more fins would they. Don't take this the wrong way I would like to help try and find an answer to this problem and I am in no way saying Jab is a bad engine or trying to start a pissing contest with Jab. but to put your head in the sand and say there is no problem is doing a disservice to not only themselves but every builder that supports them and buys their engine. In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:46:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tonyplane@bellsouth.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" Have 320 hrs on my Jab in my XL. Have last gen cowling and engine. New engines have more cooling fin area, changed ram air ducts, and latest cowling has been redesigned - for more cooliing. Recommend to you friend that if the standard recommended Jab deflectors in the ram air ducts do not give him the cooling he needs (In mine, I could not keep full power in a steep climb in high OAT for very long without approaching red line on CHT) then have him see JSB 015 -1. I added about a 30mm extension to the lower lip of my cowling. At high OAT (mid to high 90s F) I can now climb out at a higher angle for a much much longer time at high power. Tony Graziano; N493TG/Jab 3300Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend From: Randy (rpf@wi.rr.com) Date: Tue Nov 20 - 9:13 AM I have to agree with Pete. I live in Wisconsin and in summer I hardly ever get a CHT reading over 300F. Now that the onset of winter is coming I have to add some deflectors to keep the temperatures higher. I flew the other day, 25 degrees, and a couple of cylinders were between 160 and 180 degrees. I have the older style 3300 without the additional cooling fins. I also have the older style RAM air cooling ducts with the ignition wires on the outside. My installation is exactly like JabirueUSA suggests. I added deflectors, inside the RAM air ducts, so air would flow through the middle two and last two cylinders. If anything, I would like to know what people of done (who fly in cold weather) to keep their CHT's higher. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend That's funny you say that because I have talked to a lot of Jab. owners with the 601 and hear the same story time and time again. The one thing I hear most is # 6 is over 350. I think I know what the problem is and when I get it here I will see if I'm correct but to say the Jab. 3300 doesn't run hot is a stretch and to say it is hard to keep it warm enough is really a stretch. I'm only talking about the 601xl also I don't know about other planes. I do know from talking to Sabastion that one other water cooled power plant in the 601 had a problem cooling also. In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:20:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we=99ve sold well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool well in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete ----------- Time: 09:07:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Control Friction From: "Martin Pohl" Rob: I am also interested in the sheet-thickness of the bracket. For the ones who don't know the link to the modification, here it is: http://www.pfa.org.uk/Standard%20Mods/162_SM10366.pdf Cheers Martin -------- Martin Pohl Zodiac XL QBK 8645 Jona, Switzerland www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147551#147551 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Roll over protection From: "Gig Giacona" Turtle Deck is not an official aircraft term but it is top area of the fuselage behind the cockpit. It's called that because it is shaped like the top of a turtle. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147552#147552 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:45 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: Emailing: tommy929 004 Turtle Deck........... The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: tommy929 004 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:36 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Roll over protection Terry, Back in the "Olden Days", circa 1938 or so, the trunk lid of most cars was humped and looked somewhat like a turtle shell. So the trunk lid became called the "turtle deck" or just "turtle". The trunk, of course, was just behind the passenger compartment. It just carried over in aviation to that part of the fuselage that is just behind the passenger compartment, the "turtle deck". Jay in Dallas Do not archive Terry Phillips wrote: >I hate to ask a really dumb question, but ... > >Just what is a "turtle deck," and why is it call that? > >Thanks. > >do not archive > >Terry > >At 08:53 AM 11/20/2007 -0600, you wrote: >>I put roll over protection in my HD but it involved changing the turtle >>deck. One plus side though was that I did not buy a $1000 canopy but made >>my own from unbreakable and easily replaceable Lexan for less than $100. >> >>Aaron Gustafson > > >Terry Phillips >ttp44~at~rkymtn.net >Corvallis MT >601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab >http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:02 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools Actually, it's just the blade; fits in a regular utility knife handle. While nice to have, it isn't really necessary. When I needed to repalce a trashed leading edge skin for the XL, a guy at Airparts in KC KS showed me the cutting technique using just a regular utility knife. Held it upside down in a hammer grip, scored about 10 times along a straight edge, and bent it on the edge of the table. It broke clean as a whistle, and I was on my way in less than ten minutes. Whenever my Olfa blade isn't immediately to hand, I use a regular utility knife almost as easily.. P.S. A guy who spent mucho years making big aluminum signs turned me on to a neat way to make large cuts. His was a production business, so they needed to work fast. He said to get a 4 x 8 sheet of styrofoam, 4 or more inches thick, lay the sheet on it, and use a saber saw to cut. Apparently there is such a thing as "blade Wax", which you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot to use as lube. It may be necessary to grind off an inch or so from the blade. He said you never go all the way through the foam, so can use it over and over. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense, and next time I need to make larger cuts I'll give it a try. (I consider the day wasted if I don't learn something, and catch hell from somebody). Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Hays To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02 PM Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools > Paul, No Olfa brand knives are carried in the True Value or Ace Hardware stores in my area. Didn't see them in Lowe's or Home Depot either last time I trekked to town. They all carry various types of utility knives which might work, and some are only around $2.50 but most of any quality are more than 6 or 8 bucks. I'm surprised that an Ace Hardware would be able to sell an Olfa P-800 for a whole lot less but its good that you and others in your area can take advantage of that. Al On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:59 PM, > wrote: > $8.48? Wow. Ace Hardware carries them at a whole > lot less. Look in the aisle with the utility knives. > > Paul Rodriguez >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Al Hays >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:58 PM >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> > >> >> Bob, >> >> I found it online at OLFABLADES.COM and got extra blades and another >> knife to get more bang for buck on the shipping cost. It is listed as >> a heavy-duty plastic/laminate cutter with a current Sale Price of >> $8.48. Their minimum order has to be $15 and shipping would be about >> $8 >> for that. Of course, today it would cost me that much in gas to drive >> to a store which might carry an OLFA knife. Hope this helps. >> >> Al >> >> On Nov 18, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote: >> >> > I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware >> > store doesn't have one. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Carlos Sa >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores. >> >>======================== ======================p; -- Please >> Support Your Lists This Mitle=http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> Browse, Chat, >> FAQ,http:// >> www.m======================= =======================nbsp ; - >> MATRONICS WEB FORUom/ >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >> forums.matroni==================== ===================== >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:55 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Art, If you have an inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without getting a dimple, a shim can be made the thickness you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin punched shim would hold the material where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause for uneven surfaces. Larry do not archive Art Olechowski wrote: > > Larry, > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of the > spar? > > Art > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > >> >> Art, >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and >> cleco check the result. >> >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >> >> Art Olechowski wrote: >> >>> >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through >>> >> spar >> >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But >>> >> when I >> >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain >>> >> about a >> >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any of >>> >> you >> >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Art >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: of wrath and rants... From: "secatur" Why are so many posters to this thread listed as "Guest" ? Are they members or not ? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147577#147577 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:27 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools I've used an air nibbler for cutting aluminum sheet. Cuts like butter and isn't as likely to "take off" on it's own like the air shears. Terry Do not archive paulrod36@msn.com wrote: Actually, it's just the blade; fits in a regular utility knife handle. While nice to have, it isn't really necessary. When I needed to repalce a trashed leading edge skin for the XL, a guy at Airparts in KC KS showed me the cutting technique using just a regular utility knife. Held it upside down in a hammer grip, scored about 10 times along a straight edge, and bent it on the edge of the table. It broke clean as a whistle, and I was on my way in less than ten minutes. Whenever my Olfa blade isn't immediately to hand, I use a regular utility knife almost as easily.. P.S. A guy who spent mucho years making big aluminum signs turned me on to a neat way to make large cuts. His was a production business, so they needed to work fast. He said to get a 4 x 8 sheet of styrofoam, 4 or more inches thick, lay the sheet on it, and use a saber saw to cut. Apparently there is such a thing as "blade Wax", which you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot to use as lube. It may be necessary to grind off an inch or so from the blade. He said you never go all the way through the foam, so can use it over and over. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense, and next time I need to make larger cuts I'll give it a try. (I consider the day wasted if I don't learn something, and catch hell from somebody). Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Hays To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02 PM Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools Paul, No Olfa brand knives are carried in the True Value or Ace Hardware stores in my area. Didn't see them in Lowe's or Home Depot either last time I trekked to town. They all carry various types of utility knives which might work, and some are only around $2.50 but most of any quality are more than 6 or 8 bucks. I'm surprised that an Ace Hardware would be able to sell an Olfa P-800 for a whole lot less but its good that you and others in your area can take advantage of that. Al On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:59 PM, wrote: > $8.48? Wow. Ace Hardware carries them at a whole > lot less. Look in the aisle with the utility knives. > > Paul Rodriguez >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Al Hays >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:58 PM >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Al Hays >> >> >> Bob, >> >> I found it online at OLFABLADES.COM and got extra blades and another >> knife to get more bang for buck on the shipping cost. It is listed as >> a heavy-duty plastic/laminate cutter with a current Sale Price of >> $8.48. Their minimum order has to be $15 and shipping would be about >> $8 >> for that. Of course, today it would cost me that much in gas to drive >> to a store which might carry an OLFA knife. Hope this helps. >> >> Al >> >> On Nov 18, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote: >> >> > I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware >> > store doesn't have one. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Carlos Sa >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores. >> >>==============================================p; -- Please >> Support Your Lists This Mitle=http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> Browse, Chat, >> FAQ,http:// >> www.m=====================nbsp; - >> MATRONICS WEB FORUom/ >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >> forums.matroni========================================= >p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== bsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:56 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Art: I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for the wing walk were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped the wing over, the ribs were recessed by about 3/32" so that when rivitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a small shim between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look better. Drove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing kit as the top rear skins were drilled wrong as well. Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix! On Nov 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > Art, > If you have an inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without > getting a dimple, a shim can be made the thickness > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin > punched shim would hold the material > where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause > for uneven surfaces. > > Larry > do not archive > > > Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > Larry, > > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of the > > spar? > > > > Art > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > >> > >> Art, > >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. > >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and > >> cleco check the result. > >> > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > >> > >> Art Olechowski wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through > >>> > >> spar > >> > >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But > >>> > >> when I > >> > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain > >>> > >> about a > >> > >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any of > >>> > >> you > >> > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Art > >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- Paul Riedlinger cndmovn@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:52 PM PST US From: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: of wrath and rants... >-------------- > >Why are so many posters to this thread listed as "Guest" ? > >Are they members or not ? >-------------- Members that are subscribed to the email lists but are _not_ registered on the Forum, will show up as "Guest" with their email address shown. Only people that are registered specifically on the Forums will show their Forum login and not "guest". Inotherwords, just because they are "guest" on the Forum, doesn't mean they are really a "guest" status. You cannot post on the Forum without being registered (which a guest could do). Best regards, Matt Dralle List/Forum Admin -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Arm rest/console From: "kmccune" So is the seat width wider on the 601 then? I really don't know, as I've never really looked at a 601 up close and all they list is cabin width. But I do get shoulder/neck cramps and this would help. And I prefer to fly with my Hands on the stick! Though I have been known to drive my truck with my knee [Shocked] Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147584#147584 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:34 PM PST US From: Al Hays Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools That certainly does look like a good source. Their price is now $9. It seems anything gets priced higher if it's to be used on an aircraft. But still, with no shipping, and no time and gas going to town, it's the best I've heard of. Thanks. Al On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Terry Phillips wrote: > > I've hung back w/o adding yet another source, but, I guess I'll go > ahead. I bought mine from > > http://rjrcooltools.com/ > > It was $8 with no shipping charges; prompt and courteous service. RJR > appears to be a small business that supplies high quality tools for > modelers. The owner was surprised that I was going to use it to cut > aluminum, but he has since added that to his product description. > > I have no connection with RJR, other than as a satisfied customer. > > Terry > > > At 06:41 PM 11/19/2007 -0800, you wrote: >> Check in art/craft supply stores. None of my local hardware stores >> carry the Olfa P-800 but most of the craft stores do. >> >> William Dominguez >> Zodiac 601XL Plans >> Miami Florida > > > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the > stab > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:25 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 4130N-or-not-N So why is it getting hard to find 4130 N ? I just received my order for some 4130 N (thin sheet, from ACS.) and one of the sheets is AMS 6350 j. After a little research I find that this is in the annealed condition. A call to ACS and I find that they will occasionally substitute this for the normalized stock. Zenith has changed there 701 dwgs ,dropping the "N" from the material description,compared to the older dwgs. So is it OK to use annealed ? Phil Day scrapbuilder 701 do not archive **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:49 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Roll over protection Hey Gig; The oldest books I have and have seen all refer to the aft upper fuse surface as the turtledeck. What makes a term official? It certainly has a lot of history! Turtle Deck is not an official aircraft term but it is top area of the fuselage behind the cockpit. It's called that because it is shaped like the top of a turtle. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147552#147552 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:12 PM PST US From: "Ron Culver" Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools You can get Olfa blades and Cutters directly from Olfa and their prices are good and you have quite a choice ..I have the p-800 at: http://www.olfa.com/UtilityKnivesDetail.aspx?C=35&Id=58 and the heavy duty replacement blades at : http://www.olfa.com/utilityknivesdetail.aspx?c=63&id=59 ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: 2007-11-20 17:11 Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools Actually, it's just the blade; fits in a regular utility knife handle. While nice to have, it isn't really necessary. When I needed to repalce a trashed leading edge skin for the XL, a guy at Airparts in KC KS showed me the cutting technique using just a regular utility knife. Held it upside down in a hammer grip, scored about 10 times along a straight edge, and bent it on the edge of the table. It broke clean as a whistle, and I was on my way in less than ten minutes. Whenever my Olfa blade isn't immediately to hand, I use a regular utility knife almost as easily.. P.S. A guy who spent mucho years making big aluminum signs turned me on to a neat way to make large cuts. His was a production business, so they needed to work fast. He said to get a 4 x 8 sheet of styrofoam, 4 or more inches thick, lay the sheet on it, and use a saber saw to cut. Apparently there is such a thing as "blade Wax", which you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot to use as lube. It may be necessary to grind off an inch or so from the blade. He said you never go all the way through the foam, so can use it over and over. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense, and next time I need to make larger cuts I'll give it a try. (I consider the day wasted if I don't learn something, and catch hell from somebody). Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Hays To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02 PM Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools Paul, No Olfa brand knives are carried in the True Value or Ace Hardware stores in my area. Didn't see them in Lowe's or Home Depot either last time I trekked to town. They all carry various types of utility knives which might work, and some are only around $2.50 but most of any quality are more than 6 or 8 bucks. I'm surprised that an Ace Hardware would be able to sell an Olfa P-800 for a whole lot less but its good that you and others in your area can take advantage of that. Al On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:59 PM, wrote: > $8.48? Wow. Ace Hardware carries them at a whole > lot less. Look in the aisle with the utility knives. > > Paul Rodriguez >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Al Hays >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:58 PM >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, >> >> I found it online at OLFABLADES.COM and got extra blades and another >> knife to get more bang for buck on the shipping cost. It is listed as >> a heavy-duty plastic/laminate cutter with a current Sale Price of >> $8.48. Their minimum order has to be $15 and shipping would be about >> $8 >> for that. Of course, today it would cost me that much in gas to drive >> to a store which might carry an OLFA knife. Hope this helps. >> >> Al >> >> On Nov 18, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote: >> >> > I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware >> > store doesn't have one. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Carlos Sa >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores. >> >>======================== ======================p; -- Please >> Support Your Lists This Mitle=http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> Browse, Chat, >> FAQ,http:// >> www.m=====================nbsp; - >> MATRONICS WEB FORUom/ >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >> forums.matroni==================== ===================== >p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron=================== === bsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ELT Position. From: "leinad" I missed the original thread, but wanted to add that I put mine in the tail section, as that was where the manufacturer (AMERI-KING)recommended it be placed. They said it was the area least likely to be destroyed in a crash. I hope I never have to prove what a good location it was. Dan -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147599#147599 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:16 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools If you are scratch building one of you best investments is a metal shear with 8 - 10 inch blades. Cheap $230 australian can cut full length of a sheet if required around the outside of curves, Mount it of the side of you table so sheet rests on table. This thread is going on and on about a $2 Box cutter ?? Get real. Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Turnquist To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools I've used an air nibbler for cutting aluminum sheet. Cuts like butter and isn't as likely to "take off" on it's own like the air shears. Terry Do not archive paulrod36@msn.com wrote: Actually, it's just the blade; fits in a regular utility knife handle. While nice to have, it isn't really necessary. When I needed to repalce a trashed leading edge skin for the XL, a guy at Airparts in KC KS showed me the cutting technique using just a regular utility knife. Held it upside down in a hammer grip, scored about 10 times along a straight edge, and bent it on the edge of the table. It broke clean as a whistle, and I was on my way in less than ten minutes. Whenever my Olfa blade isn't immediately to hand, I use a regular utility knife almost as easily.. P.S. A guy who spent mucho years making big aluminum signs turned me on to a neat way to make large cuts. His was a production business, so they needed to work fast. He said to get a 4 x 8 sheet of styrofoam, 4 or more inches thick, lay the sheet on it, and use a saber saw to cut. Apparently there is such a thing as "blade Wax", which you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot to use as lube. It may be necessary to grind off an inch or so from the blade. He said you never go all the way through the foam, so can use it over and over. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense, and next time I need to make larger cuts I'll give it a try. (I consider the day wasted if I don't learn something, and catch hell from somebody). Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Hays To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02 PM Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools Paul, No Olfa brand knives are carried in the True Value or Ace Hardware stores in my area. Didn't see them in Lowe's or Home Depot either last time I trekked to town. They all carry various types of utility knives which might work, and some are only around $2.50 but most of any quality are more than 6 or 8 bucks. I'm surprised that an Ace Hardware would be able to sell an Olfa P-800 for a whole lot less but its good that you and others in your area can take advantage of that. Al On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:59 PM, wrote: > $8.48? Wow. Ace Hardware carries them at a whole > lot less. Look in the aisle with the utility knives. > > Paul Rodriguez >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Al Hays >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:58 PM >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, >> >> I found it online at OLFABLADES.COM and got extra blades and another >> knife to get more bang for buck on the shipping cost. It is listed as >> a heavy-duty plastic/laminate cutter with a current Sale Price of >> $8.48. Their minimum order has to be $15 and shipping would be about >> $8 >> for that. Of course, today it would cost me that much in gas to drive >> to a store which might carry an OLFA knife. Hope this helps. >> >> Al >> >> On Nov 18, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote: >> >> > I know the number. just wondering what it was. Our country hardware >> > store doesn't have one. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Carlos Sa >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: RE : RE: Zenith-List: Scratchbuilding Tools >> >> >> >> Bob, it is the OLFA P-800. You can find it it most hardware stores. >> >>======================== ======================p; -- Please >> Support Your Lists This Mitle=http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> Browse, Chat, >> FAQ,http:// >> www.m=====================nbsp; - >> MATRONICS WEB FORUom/ >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >> forums.matroni==================== ===================== >p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 20/11/2007 5:44 PM ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:53 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend As I have said I haven't had a chance to see my friends set up but I would like to help him get it fixed so could you please send some pics of your cowling and baffle setup? Also what aircraft is this in? Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 12:16:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rpf@wi.rr.com writes: I have to agree with Pete. I live in Wisconsin and in summer I hardly ever get a CHT reading over 300F. Now that the onset of winter is coming I have to add some deflectors to kee p the temperatures higher. I flew the other day, 25 degrees, and a couple of cylinders were between 160 and 180 degrees. I have the older style 3300 without the additional cooling fins. I also have the older style RAM air c ooling ducts with the ignition wires on the outside. My installation is exactly like JabirueUSA suggests. I added deflectors, inside the RAM air ducts, so air would flow through the middle two and last two cylinders. If anything, I would like to know what people of done (who fly in cold weather) to keep th eir CHT's higher. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend That's funny you say that because I have talked to a lot of Jab. owners wit h the 601 and hear the same story time and time again. The one thing I hear most is # 6 is over 350. I think I know what the problem is and when I get it here I will see if I'm correct but to say the Jab. 3300 doesn't run hot is a stretch and to say it is hard to keep it warm enough is really a stretch. I 'm only talking about the 601xl also I don't know about other planes. I do kno w from talking to Sabastion that one other water cooled power plant in the 60 1 had a problem cooling also. In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:20:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: It is not difficult to make a Jabiru run cool. In fact with a properly designed cowl that provides the correct airflow it is more of a problem to keep it warm enough in cooler months. In the last seven years we=99ve sol d well over 1000 Jabiru engines and when they are coupled with an established FWF kit they run cool. When builders put something together without the proper engineering results can be unsatisfactory. We build FWF kits that cool wel l in fast aircraft like the Lightning as well as slow aircraft like a Kitfox or Zenith 701. It is not the engine that does not cool well. If an owner installed a Corviar, Continental, or Lycoming using the same cowl design he would have the same cooling results. Pete ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol .com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend His CHT's are all over the place most of the time well over 305. he has tried 3 different baffle kits and has an a&p doing all the work but still can't get the CHT's anywhere close to each other. That is one engine I would have nothing to do with and I am not saying that because it isn't a Lycoming or continental because I have 5 corvair's, it's just that a lot of builders ca n't make the damn thing run cool. I guess they can justify the price increase because it is one hot engine. LOL Jeff In a message dated 11/20/2007 8:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never cou ld get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range .. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wron g location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHT s are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to mee t some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who' s airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for a n updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installa tion is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cool er installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site j ust last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ____________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://f orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.co m/Na vigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ____________________________________ http://www.matronics.com/contribution List Admin. to rchive much st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Zenith-List -= --> _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ==== ======== ____________________________________ See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref ="http:// forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:40 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin I think my post was not clear enough. The gap I've experienced is in between the tip of the upper and lower nose ribs and the LE of the skin. If you look cross sectionally down the leading edge of the nose skin light can be seen between the apex of both rib tips and the nose skin. I'm not seeing a how shim can work in this senario since the tip of the rib flange is tapered at the nose and no rivets exist in that area to fasten the shim too? --- Paul Riedlinger wrote: > > Art: > > I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for > the wing walk were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped > the wing over, the ribs were recessed by about 3/32" so that when > rivitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a small shim > between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look > better. Drove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing > kit as the top rear skins were drilled wrong as well. > > Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix! > > On Nov 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > Art, > > If you have an inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without > > getting a dimple, a shim can be made the thickness > > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin > > punched shim would hold the material > > where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause > > for uneven surfaces. > > > > Larry > > do not archive > > > > > > Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > > > Larry, > > > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of > the > > > spar? > > > > > > Art > > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Art, > > >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. > > >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and > > >> cleco check the result. > > >> > > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > >> > > >> Art Olechowski wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through > > >>> > > >> spar > > >> > > >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But > > >>> > > >> when I > > >> > > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain > > >>> > > >> about a > > >> > > >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any > of > > >>> > > >> you > > >> > > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> Art > > >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Paul Riedlinger > cndmovn@gmail.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:05 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Build Time I checked my logbook and the firewall forward took me about 90 hours. I did not break out the other individual construction times. Of course there was a lot of time that I did not record. This is what I called stupid time, ie - well you screwed that up what are going to do now stupid. Dan Wilde ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:11 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 4130N-or-not-N Phil, Normalizing is done to get the best condition for machining. Annealing is done to get the ductility and condition for stamping or bending. The usual normalized 4130 is the preferred condition for use in aircraft construction and may be the best for welding to avoid overheating the material. I'd be inclined to want to know what were the differences in yield strength for these metals from Aircraft Spruce. Normalizing is one condition and Annealing is multiple possible conditions. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Flydog1966@aol.com wrote: > So why is it getting hard to find 4130 N ? > I just received my order for some 4130 N (thin sheet, from ACS.) and > one of the sheets is AMS 6350 j. > After a little research I find that this is in the annealed condition. > A call to ACS and I find that they will occasionally substitute this > for the normalized stock. > Zenith has changed there 701 dwgs ,dropping the "N" from the > material description,compared to the older dwgs. > So is it OK to use annealed ? > Phil Day > scrapbuilder > 701 > do not archive > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:46 PM PST US From: Ron Lalonde Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cost of scratch build versus kit build Hi Dave Are you back to scratchbuilding?? Sure would love to see you back up and running. Going to go to your building site as soon as this message is sent. Ron Debert, Nova Scotia, Canada > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cost of scratch build versus kit build> From: d claytx2@HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:13:29 -0800> To: zenith-list mail.com>> > If you can find a local supplier for your aluminum you can sav e even more money. I'm fortunate to have a Trident Metals one hour away. I purchased two 4X12 sheets of .025 last week for $60 each with no shipping c harges. Aircraft Spruce currently charges $108 per sheet plus shipping. Scr atch building does take more time, for sure, but its a heck of a lot cheape r. Its also a pretty nice feeling to be able to say "I made every part by h and". Having said that...a kit would be my preference if money were not a f actor.> > Dave Clay> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums. ========================> _ ======================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Get them today! http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hello all... From: "Joshua" Thanks for all of your replies. I'll leave the 24" brake alone and just build a Dave Clay brake. I've been in and around a lot of lists and I must say this one is tops. There is just so much info and support available its amazing. I had completely dismissed aluminum construction after researching the Bearhawk last year because it just seemed so complicated and beyond my abilities. After spending the last few months studying Zenith planes I feel like I could practically build my 701 with just the information available on-line! It will be a while but I cant wait to get started. Thanks again. I'll be back! Joshua Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147621#147621 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Free forming sheet metal From: "Ron Lendon" Yes softer metal is normally used, but all I had was the 6061-T6 and I wanted to give it a try. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147631#147631 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:45 PM PST US From: Andrew Hinsdale Subject: Zenith-List: Glass Panels Hello Listers! Does anyone out there run JUST an EFIS, or does everyone have "backup" steam gauges? I am primarily interested in the EFIS for its overall simplicity and potential weight savings - but the need for "backups" could erode that very quickly. Thanks Andy Hinsdale Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:28 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin I don't think that is an issue at all. No amount of wind force is going to make that skin move. I would just leave it. On Nov 20, 2007 8:15 PM, Art Olechowski wrote: > > I think my post was not clear enough. The gap I've experienced is in between the tip of the upper > and lower nose ribs and the LE of the skin. If you look cross sectionally down the leading edge > of the nose skin light can be seen between the apex of both rib tips and the nose skin. I'm not > seeing a how shim can work in this senario since the tip of the rib flange is tapered at the nose > and no rivets exist in that area to fasten the shim too? > > --- Paul Riedlinger wrote: > > > > > > Art: > > > > I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for > > the wing walk were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped > > the wing over, the ribs were recessed by about 3/32" so that when > > rivitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a small shim > > between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look > > better. Drove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing > > kit as the top rear skins were drilled wrong as well. > > > > Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix! > > > > On Nov 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > Art, > > > If you have an inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without > > > getting a dimple, a shim can be made the thickness > > > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin > > > punched shim would hold the material > > > where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause > > > for uneven surfaces. > > > > > > Larry > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of > > the > > > > spar? > > > > > > > > Art > > > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Art, > > > >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. > > > >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and > > > >> cleco check the result. > > > >> > > > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > >> > > > >> Art Olechowski wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through > > > >>> > > > >> spar > > > >> > > > >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But > > > >>> > > > >> when I > > > >> > > > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain > > > >>> > > > >> about a > > > >> > > > >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any > > of > > > >>> > > > >> you > > > >> > > > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks, > > > >>> Art > > > >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Riedlinger > > cndmovn@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Paul Riedlinger cndmovn@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:42 PM PST US From: craig@craigandjean.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Glass Panels I'm backing up my EFIS (MGL Enigma) with an MGL Flight 2. I went with an EFIS to get rid of mechanical gauges so why bring them back as a back-up? The Flight 2 can be powered from Enigma's "secure" supply (primary and secondary batteries) or, if I am really paranoid, will run from a 9 volt battery for more than an hour. In a 3.5 inch package it provides (among other things): * Altimeter (-700ft to >40.000ft range) * Airspeed indicator (16-250 mph range) * Analog VSI (+/-1600 ft/min range) * Digital VSI (+/-10.000 ft/min range) * Automatic flight duration timer * Real time clock for local time and flight log use * Engine RPM gauge, programmable for different engine types * Density altimeter * Barometer (actual local pressure) * True airspeed (TAS display) * Stopwatch www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/flight2.pdf -- Craig ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:54 PM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger Bob, Finally talked to ZAC and they faxed me the drawings. there are photo guide pages for TD online. From what I can see from looking at the drawings instead of working Monday, you will have to remove the tie down ring and install the tail spring forward pickup on the front HT frame. is your rear fuselage turtledeck already riveted in place? BJC >From: "Bob Unternaehrer" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:57:53 -0600 > >My plans built fuselage I bought has the tie down ring already installed. >i haven't started on the taildragger mods yet or studied the drawings. >Wonder if I've got a lot to change. Bob U. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Sewell > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:44 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger > > > Brad, > > As I remember, the only change on the bottom rear fuselage assembly had >to do with the lower rudder hinge plate. You don't drill the center hole >for the rear tie down eye bolt. The more significant changes start when >you begin work on the forward fuselage floor. > > Take a look at my web site for some pictures. > > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Rear_Fuselage/082804.htm > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Rear_Fuselage/090204.htm > > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Cabin_Floor/092904a.htm > > Bill Sewell > N601BZ > > > On 11/19/07, Brad Cohen wrote: > > I was just getting started on the rear fuselage when a cold chill ran >down > my spine, I realized that the blueprints I was folliowing were for the > tricycle version. A quick check revealed that I didn't receive the TD > blueprint page with the parts shipment. > > Thankfully I have not progressed too far. (just now installing the >bottom > skin l-angles.) How soon do I need to start considering the >taildragger > specific changes? the photo guide is really not too clear on when to >make > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratchbuilding Tools From: "mosquito56" Recieved my Olfa knives in less than 24 hrs from shopkitchenworld.ca. They were 10.48 each. If you REALLY need em, you can find em here. I doubt I will ever deal with them again. I had to call and give my credit card 3 times over a 10 day period. They work great. cut a .025 alum. sheet in 7 swipes and a snap. Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147651#147651 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:05 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Glass Panels Hi Andy, My plane is not done yet, so I am not really using anything. However, my plan is to have only EFIS/EIS from Dynon with no "Backup" gauges. I do have an LRI I built while waiting for my wing kit, but I don't consider it a backup for the EFIS. The reason I don't feel a need for steam gauge backup for the EFIS is I don't plan to fly my plane under IFR. The EFIS actually makes a very nice and complete panel for occasional instrument flight, but since it is a single box it would not be reasonable to depend on it for planned IFR flying. That is because a single failure in the EFIS could leave you with no way to fly the plane. In my case the EFIS is itself a backup for visual control with outside reference. If you are planning a real IFR plane then I would suggest you add at least a turn and bank indicator along with an altimeter and probably airspeed for partial panel flight if the EFIS croaks. Perhaps a GPS could be used for the altitude and speed, but there is no way to fly in IMC without at least one gyro instrument. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 07:44 PM 11/20/2007, you wrote: > >Hello Listers! > >Does anyone out there run JUST an EFIS, or does >everyone have "backup" steam gauges? I am primarily >interested in the EFIS for its overall simplicity and >potential weight savings - but the need for "backups" >could erode that very quickly. > >Thanks >Andy Hinsdale ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:14 PM PST US From: DRAGONFUEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Glass Panels The Dragonfly Aviation N601BA is licensed as an ELSA and is used for flight training for hire. We installed the Dynon EFIS 100 and EMS 120 -- ONLY, with no backup. We did not believe that any other back up, other than "look out the window" was needed. Sport aircraft were designed to emulate the early simple airplanes, such as the J-3 Cub and flown for "fun" in VFR condition. No gyros are required for VFR flight. The Dynons are probably overkill, but do make flying with them almost a dream. Why try to simplify your airplane by eliminating duplication and then add it back. Personally I believe that in the long run the Dynons are simpler to operate, cheaper to purchase and install, and will require less maintenance over the life of the airplane. Every flight instructor is supposed to teach every student pilot to fly his/her airplane without reference to any instrument except sound and feel, and be able to land it safely in an emergency. Those two Dynon monitors, or a single Dynon 180 are all you need, IMHO. Cheers, Bob Archibald CH601XL/Lyc 125hp/Dynons/400 hrs. Dragonfly Aviation Santa Rosa, CA PS I have been a "lurker" on this list for about 2 years, work with Michael Heintz's Quality Sport Planes in California. I have met a number of you at various airshows and corresponded with several of you directly. I may now post directly to this list from time to time. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. 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