---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/21/07: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Re: Elevator Control Friction (Malcolm Hunt) 2. 05:14 AM - Re: Elevator Control Friction (Dave Johnson) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Bob Unternaehrer) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Elevator Control Friction (countzero) 5. 05:38 AM - Glass Panels (Jaybannist@cs.com) 6. 05:40 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Bob Unternaehrer) 7. 05:51 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 8. 05:52 AM - Re: Glass Panels (dj45) 9. 06:23 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (ZodieRocket) 10. 06:40 AM - Re: Glass Panels (Gig Giacona) 11. 06:44 AM - Re: Scratchbuilding Tools (Gig Giacona) 12. 06:44 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Paul Mulwitz) 13. 07:07 AM - Re: Taildragger (Bob Unternaehrer) 14. 07:29 AM - Re: Elevator Control Friction (swater6) 15. 07:41 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Pete Krotje) 16. 08:10 AM - Tom Henderson (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 17. 08:17 AM - Glass Panels and back-ups (Edward Moody II) 18. 08:37 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 19. 08:48 AM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (GLENN JOHNSON) 20. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Elevator Control Friction (Clive Richards) 21. 09:04 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Dave Austin) 22. 09:24 AM - Re: Roll over protection (Terry Phillips) 23. 09:48 AM - Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. (Gig Giacona) 24. 10:38 AM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (T. Graziano) 25. 10:48 AM - Re: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 26. 10:50 AM - What is an LRI? (JohnDRead@aol.com) 27. 11:40 AM - Re: What is an LRI? (Tim Juhl) 28. 12:01 PM - Re: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. (William Dominguez) 29. 12:23 PM - Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend (Gary Gower) 30. 02:03 PM - Re: What is an LRI? (Debo Cox) 31. 02:21 PM - Re: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. (LarryMcFarland) 32. 04:41 PM - Re: Glass Panels (Juan Vega) 33. 08:38 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Art Olechowski) 34. 08:49 PM - Re:Replace aileron control cables with push rods. (MaxNr@aol.com) 35. 08:56 PM - Re: Rudder Nose Skin (Art Olechowski) 36. 09:35 PM - Re:Glass Panels (MaxNr@aol.com) 37. 10:50 PM - Re: Re: Cargo Tie down rings (raymondj) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:14 AM PST US From: "Malcolm Hunt" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction Rob I asked the question of PFA Engineering and they said they would endeavour to find out from the mod application (that was about six months ago) but they did say that they thought .063" would be ok! I have made mine out of this material but used a .125" bend radius, which worked for me. I think the mod is a standard mod, not mandatory or have you found out otherwise? If I can find the PFA e-mail to me I will send it direct to you. Kind regards Malcolm Hunt CH601XL plans builder in England ----- Original Message ----- From: "countzero" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:39 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction > > UK built XLs have a mandatory modification to replace the existing > fairlead on the fuselage frame with a pulley wheel mounted on fabricated > brackets to reduce the friction in the elevator control circuit. > > Just a question for UK builders; can anyone tell me the thickness of the > sheet I should use or you used for the brackets? > > Rob > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147445#147445 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:24 AM PST US From: "Dave Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction This is a 'standard mod' - not a mandatory one. Details can be found on the PFA website at http://www.pfa.org.uk/Standard%20Mods/162_SM10366.pdf Dave Johnson do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Hunt" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction > > > Rob > > I asked the question of PFA Engineering and they said they would endeavour > to find out from the mod application (that was about six months ago) but > they did say that they thought .063" would be ok! I have made mine out of > this material but used a .125" bend radius, which worked for me. > > I think the mod is a standard mod, not mandatory or have you found out > otherwise? > > If I can find the PFA e-mail to me I will send it direct to you. > > Kind regards > > Malcolm Hunt > CH601XL plans builder in England > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "countzero" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:39 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Elevator Control Friction > > >> >> UK built XLs have a mandatory modification to replace the existing >> fairlead on the fuselage frame with a pulley wheel mounted on fabricated >> brackets to reduce the friction in the elevator control circuit. >> >> Just a question for UK builders; can anyone tell me the thickness of the >> sheet I should use or you used for the brackets? >> >> Rob ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:03 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Here's one of those "I haven't done that exactly" replies. There seem to be a whole lot of differences in Jabaru installations concerning "how hot they run". I've found that is the case with most aircooled engines. Some "experimenters" just don't understand the critical nature of the differentual pressure required to cool and air cooled engine. The smallest changes can have large effects on that differential pressure and the resulting cooling of the engine. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Control Friction From: "countzero" You are correct it is not mandatory. The TAD has a special inspection point noted about 'Elimination of undue friction in elevator controls' I don't think there's another way to do it. Rob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147672#147672 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:45 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Glass Panels To all of you contemplating glass panels: My panel and wiring is complete. Almost. When I powered it up, the Dynon EMS-D10 would not light up. I disconnected the 37-pin connector and found that the two wires that provide power to the unit do not have continuity between the connector pins and the ends of the wires. This is part of an assembled cable from Dynon. I had checked all the connectors that I made, but failed to check this pre-wired cable. Now I have this cable that is bundled with all the other "spaghetti" behind the panel and I will either have to replace the cable or try to repair the connector in-place. Neither is an appealing option. Moral: Test ALL the cables for continuity BEFORE you install them, even factory supplied cables. Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:03 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend >From my experience and others, I sure would listen to Pete rather than trying to re-envent the wheel. He's the best on the Jab. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend He added the lip to the lower cowling but it did very little. He also has the Cowling from zenith for the Jab. I haven't seen it but it is coming my way on a trailer so I can try and fix it or replace it with a corvair. And I disagree with Pete, baffling isn't rocket science there are thousands of planes out their flying and most of the builders never made baffling before and they don't have this problem, I want to tare down the engine and check the tolerances of the cylinders and see if there was or is a problem with the machining. I also think a lower baffle under the jugs is the answer. Lycoming has them continental has them and I know if you don't put them on the corvair it will over heat also I was told they don't have them I don't know never studied one very close. Another problem is the fins I believe are smooth and rough fins cool better. Sand blasting them might help. It is a simple matter of not only getting the air where you need it but keeping it there long enough to allow the heat to transfer and smooth fins don't disturb the air that flows over it. It is apparent to me that they knew they had a cooling problem otherwise they wouldn't have added more fins would they. Don't take this the wrong way I would like to help try and find an answer to this problem and I am in no way saying Jab is a bad engine or trying to start a pissing contest with Jab. but to put your head in the sand and say there is no problem is doing a disservice to not only themselves but every builder that supports them and buys their engine. In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:46:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tonyplane@bellsouth.net writes: Have 320 hrs on my Jab in my XL. Have last gen cowling and engine. New engines have more cooling fin area, changed ram air ducts, and latest cowling has been redesigned - for more cooliing. Recommend to you friend that if the standard recommended Jab deflectors in the ram air ducts do not give him the cooling he needs (In mine, I could not keep full power in a steep climb in high OAT for very long without approaching red line on CHT) then have him see JSB 015 -1. I added about a 30mm extension to the lower lip of my cowling. At high OAT (mid to high 90s F) I can now climb out at a higher angle for a much much longer time at high power. Tony Graziano; N493TG/Jab 3300 ----------- Time: 09:07:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:45 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend But it seems to me the Jab. is a lot more trouble some than most. In a message dated 11/21/2007 8:25:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shilocom@mcmsys.com writes: Here's one of those "I haven't done that exactly" replies. There seem to be a whole lot of differences in Jabaru installations concerning "how hot they run". I've found that is the case with most aircooled engines. Some "experimenters" just don't understand the critical nature of the differentual pressure required to cool and air cooled engine. The smallest changes can have large effects on that differential pressure and the resulting cooling of the engine. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: _steve_ (mailto:notsew_evets@frontiernet.net) Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ____________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http:// forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http:// forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Glass Panels From: "dj45" Andy, I agree with Paul & Bob. If all else fails, look out the window. Much nicer out there than staring at a panel anyway. -------- Do not archive Dan Stanton 99% done DAR to go 801, IO360 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147678#147678 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:35 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Sorry Mr. Sock resides with me. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Dave, was Mister sock there too???? In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. _____ See what's new "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 11/20/2007 11:34 AM 11/21/2007 10:01 AM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Glass Panels From: "Gig Giacona" It is my plan to go with a Dynon EFIS. I will also have a Garmin 496 in the panel and as I have written here before I've tested flight under a hood with ONLY the GPS derived 6-pack in the Garmin. That said I will be leaving spots available for both AS and Alt should I decide to get my IFR ticket in the plane. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147687#147687 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:16 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratchbuilding Tools From: "Gig Giacona" Just to add a data point. I got my Olfa knife from AAA Industrial supply via Amazon.com for $8.48 -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147688#147688 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:16 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Perhaps the Jabiru seems to have a lot more problems because there are a lot of Jabirus in service? The Jabiru also generates a lot of horsepower and all that means a lot of potential heat problems. Paul XL fuselage, Jabiru 3300 do not archive At 05:47 AM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >But it seems to me the Jab. is a lot more trouble some than most. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:24 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger <<> NO IT'S NOT bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Cohen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:01 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger Bob, Finally talked to ZAC and they faxed me the drawings. there are photo guide pages for TD online. From what I can see from looking at the drawings instead of working Monday, you will have to remove the tie down ring and install the tail spring forward pickup on the front HT frame. is your rear fuselage turtledeck already riveted in place? BJC >From: "Bob Unternaehrer" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:57:53 -0600 > >My plans built fuselage I bought has the tie down ring already installed. >i haven't started on the taildragger mods yet or studied the drawings. >Wonder if I've got a lot to change. Bob U. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Sewell > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:44 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taildragger > > > Brad, > > As I remember, the only change on the bottom rear fuselage assembly had >to do with the lower rudder hinge plate. You don't drill the center hole >for the rear tie down eye bolt. The more significant changes start when >you begin work on the forward fuselage floor. > > Take a look at my web site for some pictures. > > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Rear_Fuselage/082804.htm > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Rear_Fuselage/090204.htm > > http://n601bz.com/ch601xl/Fuselage/Cabin_Floor/092904a.htm > > Bill Sewell > N601BZ > > > On 11/19/07, Brad Cohen wrote: > > > I was just getting started on the rear fuselage when a cold chill ran >down > my spine, I realized that the blueprints I was folliowing were for the > tricycle version. A quick check revealed that I didn't receive the TD > blueprint page with the parts shipment. > > Thankfully I have not progressed too far. (just now installing the >bottom > skin l-angles.) How soon do I need to start considering the >taildragger > specific changes? the photo guide is really not too clear on when to >make > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Control Friction From: "swater6" Gentlemen, This mod is to replace the fairlead on the HT frame for the lower elevator cable. Is there a mod for the larger fairlead that is connected to the bottom of one of the bulkheads for the top cable? I'm building in the US but not really comfortable with two plastic fairleads here. Anyone else replaced fairleads with pulleys that would like to share? Thanks -------- 601 XL kit Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147694#147694 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:15 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I think you are not very well informed there. Jabiru's are not any harder than any other engine to cool and probably easier than corvair's and VW's. Install them with the same differential pressure between top and bottom cowl and you will get the same cooling performance as a Cont or Lyc. Provide less than required differential pressure and you will have inadequate cooling on any of the engines. Provide adequate pressure drop across the cylinders and any of the aircraft engines will cool well. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend But it seems to me the Jab. is a lot more trouble some than most. In a message dated 11/21/2007 8:25:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shilocom@mcmsys.com writes: Here's one of those "I haven't done that exactly" replies. There seem to be a whole lot of differences in Jabaru installations concerning "how hot they run". I've found that is the case with most aircooled engines. Some "experimenters" just don't understand the critical nature of the differentual pressure required to cool and air cooled engine. The smallest changes can have large effects on that differential pressure and the resulting cooling of the engine. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:02 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Tom Henderson As many of you know I started a thread concerning Tom Henderson and the fact he was selling parts for the Zenith 601 xl and in all fairness to Tom I have to say that today I received a postal money order for the full amount that was sent to him for the wing tanks. I feel it is important to speak up when someone is doing something wrong but it is equally as important to offer praise when they do the right thing also. I want to thank Tom for the money order and hope he gets things together and fulfills the other orders that builders have been waiting for. Best of luck Jeff **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:16 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Zenith-List: Glass Panels and back-ups As with any issue we discuss on the list, there are as many answers as there are people to ask. Craig's answer is, "Why add steam gauges when I installed a glass panel unit to get rid of them?" Good answer. My answer is that I am installing two AFS AF-3400 units to get more info packed into less space and displayed in a format which I find more intuitive. The point for me is to be able to sum up what the display is telling me much more quickly so that I can act on the info with less lag time and get my head back out of the cockpit for more of the flight. The HSI on the EFIS screen requires only a glance to get the same data into my brain compared to three or four times as long to get the same situational awareness from a six-pack of steam gauges. The "picutre" of the HSI takes me much less time and attention diverted form the outside world. Old pilots will argue that with enough practice and experience, the six-pack would serve me just as well. True, but the HSI on the EFIS does it for me now not 100 or 200 hours from now. Is that a cheat? Who knows? I think it is a good thing. The color and audible warnings programmed into the displays warn me of various speeds, temps, pressures etc. and can alert me more quickly if trouble is coming my way. Some older warbirds had panels designed so that all the steam gauge needles pointed straight up when they were "in the green". That made it faster and easier to scan the instruments. In a similar fashion, that's what the glass panels do for me. For some guys, it might just be eye candy or the futile quest to be at the cutting edge of technology. For me, it is a desire to make each flight as safe and rewarding as I can make it....... now, today, on the very next flight. I will differ from Craig in that I'm not on a quest to eliminate steam gauges anymore than I am on a jihad against all wisdom teeth in my dental practice. I only work to remove as many of the troublesome ones as I can. Similarly, I have installed an ASI steam gauge and a Tiny Tach in my panel to give me the absolute minimum info I want (my opinion only) to get the plane back onto the ground if something unexpected screws up the glass panel(s). What could possibly do that? Hell if I know..... it wouldn't be unexpected if I could answer that, would it? I just know that when I fly from the rear seat of my fat ultralight with an unrated pilot in the front (solo) seat, I have a tach and ASI in the rear seat to get me what I need to know. End of lecture... class dismissed. I hope that helps, Dred ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:16 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend Pete when the plane gets here I would like to fix this problem as soon as possible, I have not worked on a jab as of yet but like a good challenge. Th e one thing about this engine is the unknown and what I mean by that is we hav e no idea what happened to it in it's first 75 hrs and that is the reason I w ant to tare it down and see if there were any prolonged over heating conditions that might be the cause of the over heating now. What I would like is the specs on the engine if you could send them to me as far as the temps go and any information and photos of a correctly installed baffle or mod's that help it run cool. As you probably know just because someone holds an A&P license doesn't make them a mechanic. I would be happy to work with you to try and resolve this problem. Jeff In a message dated 11/21/2007 10:43:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pete@usjabiru.com writes: I think you are not very well informed there. Jabiru=99s are not any harder than any other engine to cool and probably easier than corvair=99s an d VW=99s. Install them with the same differential pressure between top and bottom cow l and you will get the same cooling performance as a Cont or Lyc. Provide le ss than required differential pressure and you will have inadequate cooling on any of the engines. Provide adequate pressure drop across the cylinders an d any of the aircraft engines will cool well. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol .com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend But it seems to me the Jab. is a lot more trouble some than most. In a message dated 11/21/2007 8:25:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shilocom@mcmsys.com writes: Here's one of those "I haven't done that exactly" replies. There seem to b e a whole lot of differences in Jabaru installations concerning "how hot they run". I've found that is the case with most aircooled engines. Some "experimenters" just don't understand the critical nature of the differentu al pressure required to cool and air cooled engine. The smallest changes can have large effects on that differential pressure and the resulting cooling of th e engine. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: _steve_ (mailto:notsew_evets@frontiernet.net) Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never cou ld get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range .. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wron g location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHT s are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to mee t some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotj e and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who' s airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for a n updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installa tion is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around th e front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for update s from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site j ust last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ____________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://f orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://f orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.co m/Na vigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ____________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the _hottest products_ (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) and _top money wasters_ (http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop0 0030000000002) of 2007. http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:39 AM PST US From: GLENN JOHNSON Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin HI ART JUST A QUESTION, DID YOU DRILL THE NOSE SKIN WITHOUT THE REAR SKIN IN PLACE . IF SO, THAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED THE PROBLEM. IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY , YOU MIGHT HAVE TO HAVE A SHIM BETWEENT HE RIB AND SKIN ALL THE WAY AROUND THE RIB. I DIDN'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH MINE. GLENN> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:59:59 -0500> From: cndmovn@gmail.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin> > -- don't think that is an issue at all. No amount of wind force is> going to make that skin move.> > I would just leave it.> > On Nov 20, 2007 8:15 PM, Art Olechowski wrote:> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Art Olechowski > >> > I think my post w as not clear enough. The gap I've experienced is in between the tip of the upper> > and lower nose ribs and the LE of the skin. If you look cross sect ionally down the leading edge> > of the nose skin light can be seen between the apex of both rib tips and the nose skin. I'm not> > seeing a how shim can work in this senario since the tip of the rib flange is tapered at the nose> > and no rivets exist in that area to fasten the shim too?> >> > --- Paul Riedlinger wrote:> >> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Riedlinger" > >> > >> > > Art:> > >> > > I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for> > > the wing walk were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped> > > the wing over, the ribs were recessed by about 3/32" so that when> > > ri vitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a small shim> > > between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look> > > better. Dr ove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing> > > kit as the top rear skins were drilled wrong as well.> > >> > > Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix!> > >> > > On Nov 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland > > > >> > > > Art,> > > > If you have an in ability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without> > > > getting a dimple , a shim can be made the thickness> > > > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin> > > > punched shim would hold the mater ial> > > > where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause> > > > for uneven surfaces.> > > >> > > > Larry> > > > do not archive > > > >> > > >> > > > Art Olechowski wrote:> > > > > --> Zenith-List messag e posted by: Art Olechowski > > > > >> > > > > Lar ry,> > > > > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of> > > the> > > > > spar?> > > > >> > > > > Art> > > > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote:> > > > >> > > > chine.com>> > > > >>> > > > >> Art,> > > > >> One solution is pre-drilled s hims taped in place before assembly.> > > > >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and> > > > >> cleco check the result .> > > > >>> > > > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> > > > >>> > > > >> Art Olechowski wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >>> --> Zenith-List mes sage posted by: Art Olechowski > > > > >>>> > > > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes through> > > > >>>> > > > >> spar> > > > >>> > > > >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin . But> > > > >>>> > > > >> when I> > > > >>> > > > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs contain> > > > >>>> > > > >> about a> > > > >>> > > > >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any> > > of> > > > > >>> > > > >> you> > > > >>> > > > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations?> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> Thanks ,> > > > >>> Art> > > > >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > --> > > Paul Riedlinger> > > cndmovn@gmail.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Paul Riedlinger> cndmov ======> > > _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init iative now. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:14 AM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Control Friction Will check Rays 601HD when at airfield Friday the Sketch he used of Mod no 10366 is stronger than the current PFA Drawing it shows 11/2 inch x 11/2 inch x 1/8th inch & the length is 6 inches pulley 2 inch OD it is installed where control cable angle changes as cable will saw through a plastic fairlead in UK, not it seems in US . The PFA could not find their mod at time of rays inspection. G CBDG 179 Hrs Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Pohl" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Control Friction > > Rob: I am also interested in the sheet-thickness of the bracket. For the > ones who don't know the link to the modification, here it is: > > http://www.pfa.org.uk/Standard%20Mods/162_SM10366.pdf > > Cheers Martin > > -------- > Martin Pohl > Zodiac XL QBK > 8645 Jona, Switzerland > www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147551#147551 > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:19 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend What horse power does a Jabiru 3300 give at 2600 rpm? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:41 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Roll over protection Thanks Jay and others who responded. I hate it when I don't know what people are talking about. Terry At 05:00 PM 11/20/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Terry, Back in the "Olden Days", circa 1938 or so, the trunk lid of most >cars was humped and looked somewhat like a turtle shell. So the trunk lid >became called the "turtle deck" or just "turtle". The trunk, of course, >was just behind the passenger compartment. It just carried over in >aviation to that part of the fuselage that is just behind the passenger >compartment, the "turtle deck". > >Jay in Dallas >Do not archive Terry Phillips ttp44@rkymtn.net ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. From: "Gig Giacona" Has any one done this in a 601XL? Anyone see any reason not to? Pros- No need for the counter balance cable. Positive control connection. Cons Weight Loss of control pressure balance between ailerons and rudder and elevator. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147722#147722 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:32 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend FYI See http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@gm.com.10.23.2005/ for some good ideas on cooling. Also, at 2600 rpm per the Jab manual's performance curve graph, available online from Jab USA at http://www.usjabiru.com/), H.P = about 105/ torque about 203 ft-lbs Hope this helps. Tony Graziano Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 N493TG ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:36 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. Gig, I laid out the geometrics and it is a straight shot, along the centerline of the wing spar, from the control rod bellcrank connection to the aileron bellcrank connection. It would be a little over 8' long; so the only unknown (to me) is the size of rod that would be required. Maybe one of the aeronautical engineers on board could determine that for you. Sounds do-able. Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Gig Giacona" wrote: > >Has any one done this in a 601XL? Anyone see any reason not to? > >Pros- >No need for the counter balance cable. >Positive control connection. > >Cons >Weight >Loss of control pressure balance between ailerons and rudder and elevator. > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147722#147722 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:14 AM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: What is an LRI? Hello All: I have seen many references to a LRI what does it do and how does it work. Thanks. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: What is an LRI? From: "Tim Juhl" Lift Reserve Indicator - basically an angle of attack indicator. I suggest you run a search on either term.... there was a lot of discussion on it in the past. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147754#147754 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:10 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. I have not done it but I'm been entertaining the idea of having cables running from the aileron bellcrank to another bellcrank in rib #1 and then a pushrod from the bellcrank in rib #1 to the aileron torque tube horn 6B17-4. My reason for this is because I would like to be able to remove/attach the wings without having to go inside the fuselage and deal with the aileron cables. When removing the wing, this mod will allow disconnection of the ailerons by just removing the pushrod from the bellcrank in rib #1. This will require a slotted opening in the fuselage to allow clearance for the bellcrank to move, a boot could cover this opening from the inside. Of course, if I decide pursuing this route I will submit it to ZAC for approval. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida Has any one done this in a 601XL? Anyone see any reason not to? Pros- No need for the counter balance cable. Positive control connection. Cons Weight Loss of control pressure balance between ailerons and rudder and elevator. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147722#147722 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:22 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend With any engine, name it Jabiru, Rotax, Corvair, water cooled auto conversion (all and any of them). We needs a well designed cowling for the engine and/or the radiator. Is not easy, is like choosing or carving a propeller, -- If we are going to carve it, we need to start with something that is working in simlar aplications before doing our own, or buy one of the advised brands (Sesenich, Warp, etc to name only two) -- To get a good working cowling, the best route for us homebuilders, I think is to buy a Firewall Forward kit for your airplane (includes the cowling), Then do any little mod needed, in case the temperatures are not the perfect ones, using the advise of REAL flyers in type, from this lists... (Not from me yet, will start my first Jabiru instalation in a 601 XL in a few weeks). I have already installed 5 Rotax 912 engines, only two was in the numbers for temperatures since the first flight, the other 3 needed a little tweek (sp?) in the cooling system, finally all work perfectly in our area and altitudes... Same happened with the propellers (performance), they needed to find the perfect degrees in each aplications. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S Building a 601 XL (Jab powered) Flying from Chapala, Mexico. PS: Homebuild Help Videos are Great Help! Pete Krotje wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } I think you are not very well informed there. Jabirus are not any harder than any other engine to cool and probably easier than corvairs and VWs. Install them with the same differential pressure between top and bottom cowl and you will get the same cooling performance as a Cont or Lyc. Provide less than required differential pressure and you will have inadequate cooling on any of the engines. Provide adequate pressure drop across the cylinders and any of the aircraft engines will cool well. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC --------------------------------- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend But it seems to me the Jab. is a lot more trouble some than most. In a message dated 11/21/2007 8:25:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shilocom@mcmsys.com writes: Here's one of those "I haven't done that exactly" replies. There seem to be a whole lot of differences in Jabaru installations concerning "how hot they run". I've found that is the case with most aircooled engines. Some "experimenters" just don't understand the critical nature of the differentual pressure required to cool and air cooled engine. The smallest changes can have large effects on that differential pressure and the resulting cooling of the engine. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend I have not run my 3300 yet but I m gettin close. I did own an Avid Flyer with a 2200A for 13 years. The 2200 always ran hot. In fact I never could get the temps on the EGT below 1375. Sometimes EGTs were in the 1475 range. I solved my worries one day by flying above the airport (3000agl) and let her do what ever she wanted. The engine ran fine at 1475...... However I did have good CHTs. CHTs were in the 190 to 265 range. At that time Jabiru didnt have EGTs on their factory Jabiru airplanes. I guess they didnt want to know EGTs. Today I think the hight EGTs are a result of placing the probes in the wrong location. 100 mm is either too close or too far from the flange..... CHTs are probably the best tell tail of how your engine is doing.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru/601 FWF Seminar This Past Weekend They need to have a "HOW TO MAKE YOUR JAB RUN COOL" seminar. Seems like everyone I talk to with a jab in a 601 has overheating problems, I just wonder if it is an engine problem more than a baffle problem. My friend is trying to get his 601 to me to look at about this but I told him I want to tare down the complete engine and check to see how close the tolerances are from one cylinder to the next. Jeff In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:48:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: Jabiru held a very informative Zenith 601/Jabiru FWF seminar this past weekend at the Jabiru USA facility in TN. I had a good time and got to meet some fellow Matronic's posters there. My thanks to seminar leaders, Pete Krotje and Mark Stauffer, who were very patient with us as well as Don Guice, who's airplane we used as the guinea pig. Jon Croke was also there filming for an updated Homebuilt Help 101 video on this topic. One of the things I was interested in seeing was the dual throttle set-up. The latest ZAC firewall design requires some slight modifications in the way the cross-rod installation is performed on the top shelf. Nothing major, but you have to work around the front shelf L-brackets and the U-channel on the back side. Look for updates from Jabiru in the near future. We also went over the new oil cooler installation. I understand that new instructions hit the Jabiru web site just last week. Attached are a few pictures I took during the class as well ! as a shot of Don and his airplane loaded into a 30' Penske truck. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147134#147134 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_72_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/jab_seminar_53_131.jpg http://forums.matronsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== --------------------------------- href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:23 PM PST US From: Debo Cox Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What is an LRI? Hey John, It's a Lift Reserve Indicator. There's a really good synopsis on Mark Townsends 601 site. Go here: http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm Be prepared though. You're going to want one. The good news is it's inexpensive, easy to make, and there are a guys on the list here who make the probes and sell them very reasonably. The guy who made mine is Scott Laughlin. I'm not sure if he's still making them or not, but mine is very well-made. Do an archive search here and you'll find him. Good luck. Debo Cox Nags Head, NC Scratchbuilt XL/Corvair www.mykitlog.com/debo do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:18 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Replace aileron control cables with prush rods. Gig, The "rod" would have to be a tube at 8 feet, but more a concern would be the support and attachment of the bellcrank designed for a pull-pull rather than a push-pull arrangement. That has greater implications for failure, long term. The other is the length of the tube and the frequency of vibration it may acquire from the aircraft. The lesser problem swinging an arc with a tube of proper diameter, ( 3/4" diameter or more) would likely encroach on the clearance inside. Simplicity is always better and cable is simple. I believe "being do-able" and "a better alternative" are not the same thing here. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > Gig, > > I laid out the geometrics and it is a straight shot, along the centerline of the wing spar, from the control rod bellcrank connection to the aileron bellcrank connection. It would be a little over 8' long; so the only unknown (to me) is the size of rod that would be required. Maybe one of the aeronautical engineers on board could determine that for you. Sounds do-able. > > Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J > >> Has any one done this in a 601XL? Anyone see any reason not to? >> >> Pros- >> No need for the counter balance cable. >> Positive control connection. >> >> Cons >> Weight >> Loss of control pressure balance between ailerons and rudder and elevator. >> >> -------- >> W.R. "Gig" Giacona >> 601XL Under Construction >> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR >> ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:31 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Glass Panels i am all dynon 100 and 120 with no Back up steam guages, its a waist of weight and money. want insurance, get the back up battery and compass. you can see my lay out on zentih website. To test it i shut the master switch off and flew a few touch and goes on just B/U battery on EFIs. did just fine. Used hand held for radio work. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: DRAGONFUEL@aol.com >Sent: Nov 21, 2007 2:14 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Glass Panels > >The Dragonfly Aviation N601BA is licensed as an ELSA and is used for flight >training for hire. We installed the Dynon EFIS 100 and EMS 120 -- ONLY, with >no backup. We did not believe that any other back up, other than "look out >the window" was needed. Sport aircraft were designed to emulate the early >simple airplanes, such as the J-3 Cub and flown for "fun" in VFR condition. No >gyros are required for VFR flight. The Dynons are probably overkill, but do >make flying with them almost a dream. Why try to simplify your airplane by >eliminating duplication and then add it back. Personally I believe that in >the long run the Dynons are simpler to operate, cheaper to purchase and >install, and will require less maintenance over the life of the airplane. Every >flight instructor is supposed to teach every student pilot to fly his/her >airplane without reference to any instrument except sound and feel, and be able to >land it safely in an emergency. Those two Dynon monitors, or a single Dynon >180 are all you need, IMHO. > >Cheers, > >Bob Archibald >CH601XL/Lyc 125hp/Dynons/400 hrs. >Dragonfly Aviation >Santa Rosa, CA > >PS I have been a "lurker" on this list for about 2 years, work with Michael >Heintz's Quality Sport Planes in California. I have met a number of you at >various airshows and corresponded with several of you directly. I may now >post directly to this list from time to time. > > >**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest >products. >(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:03 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Glenn, No I did not, the rear skin overlapped the nose skin when I did the drilling. But I now know what the culprit was, the top rib had an upward ramp at the tip which I discovered while filing the nose skin flush to the top rib web. To correct this, I detached the rivets from the top rib and enhanced the forward flutes to flatten the top rib. After doing so successfully the tip fell further down angle of the LE of the nose skin thus creating the gap. The lower nose rib just needs to be pulled in tighter and re-clecoed and it appears it will be good to go. I'm not happy with the kit part but I'm also to blame for not thoroughly inspecting the part prior to drilling. So my choices are A)leave it as is B)buy a replacement part from Zen(not likely), or C)scratchbuild a new one with the others. Most likely I will do option 'C' just cause I want it done right. do not archive Art --- GLENN JOHNSON wrote: > > HI ART > > JUST A QUESTION, DID YOU DRILL THE NOSE SKIN WITHOUT THE REAR SKIN IN PLACE. IF SO, THAT MIGHT > HAVE CAUSED THE PROBLEM. IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO HAVE A SHIM BETWEENT > HE RIB AND SKIN ALL THE WAY AROUND THE RIB. I DIDN'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH MINE. > > GLENN> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:59:59 -0500> From: cndmovn@gmail.com> To: > zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin> > --> Zenith-List message > posted by: "Paul Riedlinger" > > I don't think that is an issue at all. No > amount of wind force is> going to make that skin move.> > I would just leave it.> > On Nov 20, > 2007 8:15 PM, Art Olechowski wrote:> > --> Zenith-List message posted > by: Art Olechowski > >> > I think my post was not clear enough. The gap > I've experienced is in between the tip of the upper> > and lower nose ribs and the LE of the > skin. If you look cross sectionally down the leading edge> > of the nose skin light can be seen > between the apex of both rib tips and the nose skin. I'm not> > seeing a how shim can work in > this senario since the tip of the rib flange is tapered at the nose> > and no rivets exist in > that area to fasten the shim too?> >> > --- Paul Riedlinger wrote:> >> > > > > > I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for> > > the wing walk > were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped> > > the wing over, the ribs were > recessed by about 3/32" so that when> > > rivitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a > small shim> > > between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look> > > better. > Drove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing> > > kit as the top rear skins were > drilled wrong as well.> > >> > > Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix!> > >> > > On Nov > 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:> > > > --> Zenith-List message > posted by: LarryMcFarland > > > >> > > > Art,> > > > If you have an > inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without> > > > getting a dimple, a shim can be > made the thickness> > > > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin> > > > > punched shim would hold the material> > > > where you want without that dented look that > some pulled rivets cause> > > > for uneven surfaces.> > > >> > > > Larry> > > > do not archive> > Olechowski > > > > >> > > > > Larry,> > > > > Can you elaborate some, > the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft of> > > the> > > > > spar?> > > > > >> > > > > Art> > > > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Art,> > > > >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly.> > > > >> > Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and> > > > >> cleco check the > result.> > > > >>> > > > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the > rudder. When I drilled the holes through> > > > >>>> > > > >> spar> > > > >>> > > > >>> and nose > skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. But> > > > >>>> > > > > >> when I> > > > >>> > > > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in > place both nose ribs contain> > > > >>>> > > > >> about a> > > > >>> > > > >>> 1.5mm gap in > between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have any> > > of> > > > >>>> > > > > >> you> > > > >>> > > > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or > recommendations?> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> Thanks,> > > > >>> Art> > > > >>> 701 Scratch > builder .0005% Complete> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> > > --> > > Paul Riedlinger> > > cndmovn@gmail.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Paul Riedlinger> cndmov======> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:52 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Replace aileron control cables with push rods. I have often thought of that, but I admit that I'm no trailblazer. I just want to build the plane first. I also see some builders asked about elevator cable interference a little while back. Any questions about tubing size, etc., could be answered by looking at other planes and see what the designer did there. I'll dig out my old Thorp T-18 drawings again and check details. John Thorp used elevator and aileron push rods for this 170 KT airplane. Push rods aided in the quick disconnect of the controls when removing the wing. Only problem ever encountered was in the flying tail. Accumulated slop caused flutter above 190 KTIAS. Cured by counter balancing. I do not see this as a problem for a 601XL. The T-18 handles sweet. I think the Mustang ll also has push rods too. Anybody interested, e-mail me and I'll try to get some details back to you. BTW, Thorp also designed the Piper Cherokee and it shares design details with the T-18. Bob Dingley from Pace, FL 601XL (picking away) Do not archive ************************************** Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:25 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Nose Skin Paul, I think I'll build me a new one and back drill through the existing skin holes to make it right. I agree probably does not matter either way. do not archive Art --- Paul Riedlinger wrote: > > I don't think that is an issue at all. No amount of wind force is > going to make that skin move. > > I would just leave it. > > On Nov 20, 2007 8:15 PM, Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > I think my post was not clear enough. The gap I've experienced is in between the tip of the > upper > > and lower nose ribs and the LE of the skin. If you look cross sectionally down the leading > edge > > of the nose skin light can be seen between the apex of both rib tips and the nose skin. I'm > not > > seeing a how shim can work in this senario since the tip of the rib flange is tapered at the > nose > > and no rivets exist in that area to fasten the shim too? > > > > --- Paul Riedlinger wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Art: > > > > > > I had the opposite problem on one of my wings. The inboard 4 ribs for > > > the wing walk were centered on the top of the skin but when I flipped > > > the wing over, the ribs were recessed by about 3/32" so that when > > > rivitted, the skin would be pulled concave. I added a small shim > > > between the rib and the skin to correct the issue and make it look > > > better. Drove me crazy. I must have gotten a Monday AM 601XL wing > > > kit as the top rear skins were drilled wrong as well. > > > > > > Oh well, nothing a little fiddling cant fix! > > > > > > On Nov 20, 2007 5:54 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > > > Art, > > > > If you have an inability to pull a cleco down to close a gap without > > > > getting a dimple, a shim can be made the thickness > > > > you need and taped in place. If I understood your problem, the thin > > > > punched shim would hold the material > > > > where you want without that dented look that some pulled rivets cause > > > > for uneven surfaces. > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > Can you elaborate some, the shims would attach to which holes? the rib flange holes aft > of > > > the > > > > > spar? > > > > > > > > > > Art > > > > > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Art, > > > > >> One solution is pre-drilled shims taped in place before assembly. > > > > >> Been there and done that on rib height, but you have to be careful and > > > > >> cleco check the result. > > > > >> > > > > >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > > >> > > > > >> Art Olechowski wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> He all I have a dilemma with my nose skin on the rudder. When I drilled the holes > through > > > > >>> > > > > >> spar > > > > >> > > > > >>> and nose skin I confirmed that both nose rib tips were flush with inside of the skin. > But > > > > >>> > > > > >> when I > > > > >> > > > > >>> overlapped the nose skin on top the rear skin and clecoed in place both nose ribs > contain > > > > >>> > > > > >> about a > > > > >> > > > > >>> 1.5mm gap in between the skin. Both ribs have all the holes drilled in flanges. Have > any > > > of > > > > >>> > > > > >> you > > > > >> > > > > >>> experienced this and if so whats are the resolutions or recommendations? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Thanks, > > > > >>> Art > > > > >>> 701 Scratch builder .0005% Complete > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Paul Riedlinger > > > cndmovn@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Paul Riedlinger > cndmovn@gmail.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:37 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Glass Panels Old @#%s don't do glass very well. With almost 1,000 hours with a high end system, I still caught myself watching the standbys during take off and other critical flight phases. The glass just had so much detail and clutter. More if you went into "reversion" and combined the EADI with the EHSI or vice versa. If you didn't like your readings, switch your panel to the co pilot's air data computer. I'm retired now. Starting with the fact that an experimental requires no instrumation at all for day/vfr. That said, I like to put the hood on and stay proficient. I do like the idea of the Dynon 120 all in one box. The downside is when you crank up hundreds of miles from home and the screen goes black. With the old round gauges, you could find a quick replacement or go VFR with what you have remaining. You could even limp home with only an oil press if you had to. It would have to be a real pretty day though. Bob Do not archive ************************************** Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:55 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cargo Tie down rings Thanks, I think I found it. Does "Approach and landing accidents" sound right for the title? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. ----- Original Message ----- From: "aprazer" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cargo Tie down rings > > Raymond, > faasafety.gov (FAASafety.gov) [announce@faasafety.gov] in conjunction with > the Idaho State Aeronautics put this program in Boise a couple of weeks > ago. > Very informative! > Mack > > -------- > The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146451#146451 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.