Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:28 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bob Unternaehrer)
2. 04:28 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bob Unternaehrer)
3. 05:21 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:50 AM - Re: XL baggage compartment fan (Matt & Jo)
5. 05:54 AM - Re: Bleeding brake lines (Matt & Jo)
6. 06:22 AM - Re: N601KS flies (leinad)
7. 09:45 AM - Re: Flap position sensor (Phil Maxson)
8. 11:24 AM - Re: Flap position sensor (videoflyer@aol.com)
9. 11:24 AM - Fuel Sender (steve)
10. 12:49 PM - Re: N601KS flies (Terry Phillips)
11. 04:35 PM - Re: Rotax FWF (Allan Barton)
12. 04:37 PM - Re: Rotax FWF (Allan Barton)
13. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. ()
14. 07:57 PM - Re: Bleeding brake lines ()
15. 10:11 PM - Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Ron Lendon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. |
I do have the "stuff" in a few places, not generally on the airplane.
One of the problems is "they" call it welding and it's actually
"soldering". One of the differences is the metals being attached don't
reach melting temperatures like they do with welding. If one approaches
the connection and the connection needs with the properties of
"soldering" in mind it CAN work well. Clean joint with correct tools
and good "lapping type" fit up. I think an improvement could also be
made with the "Proper" cleaning type flux, but I haven't seen one being
reccommended. I used silver solder flux once and it seemed to work
good. bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.
I have the video and I bought the rods and trust me you don't want to
use this stuff on your fuel tanks. If it is the one where they show the
guy filling a hole in a soda can you are just asking to shorten your
life span even if you did somehow get the stuff to hold. I understand
you are trying to save money but what you are talking about is just
plain dangerous If it the same stuff I bought.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/30/2007 4:40:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashontz@nbme.org writes:
We'll see how it turns out. Apparently it's all about the flux, and
you need special googles when working with certain fluxes for aluminum.
Apparently there's some way to weld it, and I suspect this is the
best way. Everything I've heard about TIG welding is not great either,
the splatter from that can burn a bunch of little pin holes all over the
place.
Worse case I'm out $75 for an aluminum welding kit and $20 worth of
sheet metal. At least I'll have tried. I suspect it will work though.
And no, this is not brazing, it's welding, with either a MAPP torch or
acetyleine.
Larry McFarland welded his own tanks with some patience, he's the
man! I'll give it a try. That's what homebuilding is about,
self-education. 3 years ago my neighbor had a smirk on his face when he
saw I was building a plane. He doesn't smirk anymore. Meanwhile Mr.
Smirky still spends his saturdays helping his wife grocery shop. I'll at
least try welding them myself. Apparently it comes with a VHS video. Now
I can't imagine them making a VHS video of a guy welding with said
supplies, actually making a welding on video, and then me taking some
scrap pieces and having total bum luck with it and not even be able to
rudimentally join a bunch of scrap pieces that I can learn from before
proceeding to the tank. That just doesn't make sense.
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]If you ordered that crap they show
using a torch and some rods don't waste your money. Trust me you will
do nothing but make a lot of scrap metal.
In a message dated 11/30/2007 1:07:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashontz@nbme.org writes:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz"
>
> I hear ya. I just ordered some stuff and an instructional video
to gas weld my tanks. At least if I'm going to spend even half or a
thrid that kind of money I want some tools and skills out of it I can
have forever.
>
> [quote="notsew_evets(at)frontiern"]My QBK is # 55. There are
three nose ribs inboard of the tank. I assume I need to install the
senders on the end of the tank. Its no problem but I didnt want to
screw up these "costly" tanks. I ve been watching your discussion
of tank costs here and cant believe the $$$$$.
> Heck, about $6 of sheet aluminum and a tig welder would put us
in business...
>
> SW
>
>
> > ---
> >
> >
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149665#149665
>
>
>
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000300000000
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(http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolt
op00030000000002) of 2007.
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149683#149683
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. |
I guess for polarity reversal when going from 4130 to aluminum you will
have to rig up a way to switch the leads unless your dc machine has
straight and reverse polarity. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Olechowski
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.
<ifly4fun2@sbcglobal.net>
Find a cheap stick welder and convert it to a tig to weld the aluminum
and use the oxy/acetylene
for the steel. Here's the link for the conversion kit if your
interested:
http://www.tigdepot.net/products_details2.php?productid=197
Art
--- Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> If you ordered that crap they show using a torch and some rods don't
waste
> your money. Trust me you will do nothing but make a lot of scrap
metal.
>
>
> In a message dated 11/30/2007 1:07:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ashontz@nbme.org writes:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
>
> I hear ya. I just ordered some stuff and an instructional video to
gas weld
> my tanks. At least if I'm going to spend even half or a thrid that
kind of
> money I want some tools and skills out of it I can have forever.
>
> [quote="notsew_evets(at)frontiern"]My QBK is # 55. There are
three nose
> ribs inboard of the tank. I assume I need to install the senders
on the end of
> the tank. Its no problem but I didnt want to screw up these
"costly"
> tanks. I ve been watching your discussion of tank costs here and
cant believe
> the $$$$$.
> Heck, about $6 of sheet aluminum and a tig welder would put us in
> business...
>
> SW
>
> > ---
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149665#149665
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's
hottest
> products.
>
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>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. |
Hi Andy,
I suggest you invest in an instructional book on welding along with
your new equipment. Nearly all welding suppliers have the one I
bought several years ago - "Welder's Handbook" by Finch. It will
tell you which welding technique will work for which base metal and
which technique will not.
Aluminum is extremely hard to weld for two simple reasons. First,
you can't see when it is getting hot because it melts before changing
color - unlike steel which gets nice and red before melting. Second,
aluminum is an excellent conductor which means the heat you apply
gets carried quickly away from the point you apply it. That means
you need a much higher power welding system for aluminum than for
steel. There is also the fact that aluminum oxidizes so quickly and
the oxide is invisible but will ruin a weld. I have heard it is
possible to gas weld aluminum, but you will need a heavy duty
oxy-acetylene rig. I don't think a mapp gas setup will work. Your
chances of success will be a lot greater with TIG.
TIG welding should not spatter at all. If it does, you are doing
something very wrong. For aluminum, you need an A/C power supply
which is not found on the low end welders. An entry level A/C TIG
welding rig will cost around $1200 if you shop carefully. The bigger
professional class units with a high duty cycle and water cooling
will be more like $5,000. Add to that another hundred or so for a
bottle of shield gas and you are ready to start. You also need
appropriate filler metal rods - different ones for each type of base
metal you want to weld. Did I mention another hundred or two for a
good self darkening helmet? I strongly urge you to not skimp on that
part since you will surely blind yourself with improper (or
improperly used) eye protection.
Of course, the price of the required equipment is more than the price
of the tanks from ZAC. Then you need to spend the required time to
learn how to do the incredibly hard task of welding aluminum and then
adjust it to very thin aluminum.
I will give you credit though. You are facing a monumental task with
little chance of success.
Good luck,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 01:38 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote:
>Apparently there's some way to weld it, and I suspect this is the
>best way. Everything I've heard about TIG welding is not great
>either, the splatter from that can burn a bunch of little pin holes
>all over the place.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: XL baggage compartment fan |
I used a 12 volt computer fan. I got it off of EBay. It works fine.
Doesn't pull a lot of air. But it does get some movement. Which should
help
http://www.zodiacxl.com/Top%20Skin%20Assy.htm
Good Luck
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: XL baggage compartment fan
> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
>
> Hi
> I have read that some people have put a fan into the baggage back bulkhead
> (6B12-2) of their XL's.
>
> What type of fan and does it work well? I was thinking of a 12v computer
> power supply fan of about 4 ". In our Hot Aussie summers I think I will
> need something during taxi. ram air should work once airborne.
>
> Anyone got any Ideas or done something similar?
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149338#149338
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Bleeding brake lines |
Check out what Bill Sewell did to bleed his brakes. This looks very
simple and is what I am planning to use
http://www.n601bz.com/ch601xl/FinalAssembly/060407.htm
Good Luck
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Bleeding brake lines
For a one man method of bleeding the brakes, Harbor Freight
sells a vacuum bleeder for less than ten bucks. With a short tube on
the wheel, brake bleeder into a jar of brake fluid and the vacuum on the
master cylinder, the vacuum pump pulls the fluid up with no air in the
system. I jack up my wheel a\to allow easier access to the Cleveland
bleeder. Works fine and I can do it by myself.
Bob, Wichita
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: N601KS flies |
Ken,
Way to go. Good luck with the flight tests. Of course I'm jealous!
Dan Dempsey
Do not archive
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149853#149853
Message 7
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| Subject: | Flap position sensor |
I just look out the window to see how much gap there is between the flap an
d the wing. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. It works. 150 hours.Phil
Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:49:52 -0800> From: jakereyna@yahoo.com> Subject
: Zenith-List: Flap position sensor> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> > --> Z
enith-List message posted by: Jake Reyna <jakereyna@yahoo.com>> > Here is m
y low cost solution, $50, to a flap position> sensor. I'm putting this in t
he public domain for all> to use.> <SNIP>
_________________________________________________________________
You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init
iative now.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position sensor |
On a 601, all? you have to do is look at the flaps.? I see no need for a sensor
and position indicator in the cockpit!
Dave
601XL/Corvair/N618PZ (50 hours)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flap position sensor
________________________________________________________________________
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I finally have my two fuel senders installed in the wing tanks "ends".
There sure isnt much "meat" holding the senders in the tank.
If I did it again, I might just put these senders on the top of the
tanks...
Man o man, if one becomes loose I ll be dumping a whole bunch of fuel
Oh well, I did it the way I was told by Zenith.
Yes, I actually called to hear their recommended way to install.....
Steve W.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: N601KS flies |
Congratulations, Ken
I'll look forward to a report on your first flight.
Terry
At 03:56 PM 11/29/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>My 601XL flew for the first time today, Bill Clapp
>tokk it up for me, and reports that it flew well. It's
>my turn tomorrow.
>
>Ken
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 11
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That would be great Geoff
--------
Allan
601 XL Rotax
90% done 90% to go
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149936#149936
Message 12
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Does anyone have a Rotax FWF kit for sale ??
I don't need the engine. I have that part
Please reply off line if you like
Thanks
--------
Allan
601 XL Rotax
90% done 90% to go
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149938#149938
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. |
"That crap they show using a torch and some rods" actually works, but
you have to have so clean of a surface, and such a delicate touch with
the torch, that it's an exercise in frustration. So far, the best result
I ever got out of it was an appreciation of zen, and patience, patience,
patience, until I said to hell with it, and used rivets and Pro-Seal.
Then I killed the Grasshopper.
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com<mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.
If you ordered that crap they show using a torch and some rods don't
waste your money. Trust me you will do nothing but make a lot of scrap
metal.
In a message dated 11/30/2007 1:07:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashontz@nbme.org<mailto:ashontz@nbme.org> writes:
<ashontz@nbme.org<mailto:ashontz@nbme.org>>
I hear ya. I just ordered some stuff and an instructional video to
gas weld my tanks. At least if I'm going to spend even half or a thrid
that kind of money I want some tools and skills out of it I can have
forever.
[quote="notsew_evets(at)frontiern"]My QBK is # 55. There are
three nose ribs inboard of the tank. I assume I need to install the
senders on the end of the tank. Its no problem but I didnt want to
screw up these "costly" tanks. I ve been watching your discussion of
tank costs here and cant believe the $$$$$.
Heck, about $6 of sheet aluminum and a tig welder would put us in
business...
SW
> ---
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149665#149665
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avigator?Zenith-List>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Bleeding brake lines |
Sounds like an awful lot of work...........My A&P/AI has for over 25
years used a pump-type oil can, one of those with the long spout, and
the trigger, with the appropriate length of clear tubing, to fill and
refill brakes. Since it's a pump. there is no backflow, and you can
pause, refill the can, check levels, whatever, without worrying about
losing what's already in the system. Since we're using THE RED STUFF,
and not automotive brake fluid, there isn't any alcohol in it, and
exposure to air isn't a factor. You pump till it's full, close the bleed
valve, and remove the clear tubing. You can then return the fluid (you
did use clean tubing, right?) back to the can. As long as you dedicate
that oil can to hydraulic fluid only, your rig will last longer than you
do.
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Crvsecretary@aol.com<mailto:Crvsecretary@aol.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bleeding brake lines
I have a Mity-Vac hand-held vacuum pump with the brake bleeder adaptor
and I have never been happy with it. I'll explain in a bit..
the brake bleeder adaptor is a small cup with 2 ports in it: vacuum is
applied from the hand pump to one port which opens to the cup right at
the cap. The fluid inlet has a clear plastic tube extension that goes
to within 1/4" from the bottom of the cup. A hose goes from the fluid
inlet port to the brake bleeder screw.
Put 3/8" of fresh brake fluid in the cup so the end of the clear
plastic hose in the cup is submirged in brake fluid. Put the hose on
the brake bleeder screw and operate the hand pump to pull a hard
vacuum...maybe 25" Hg or so. Now, gently crack open the brake bleeder
screw on the caliper and the vacuum in the cup will pull the fluid (and
the air) out of the caliper. Of course, all you'll get initially is all
air until the hose from the caliper to the cup is full of brake
fluid...so it's a good idea to keep that hose short !!!
When the vacuum in the cup is almost exhausted close the brake bleeder
screw and pump up the vacuum and try it again until you see no air
bubbles in the clear plastic hose in the cup (whish is now filling up
fast with used brake fluid).
DO NOT ALLOW THE MASTER CYMINDER TO RUN DRY or else you are starting
from the beginning. Remember to THROW AWAY all the brake fluid in the
cup....it has seen air and it is no good anymore.
OK, so why do I NOT like this tool? When you crack open the brake
bleeder screw air can be drawn from around the screw and into the fluid
stream...making it seem like you will never finish this job...EVER. I
also find the ergonomics of the hand pump and the brake bleeder adaptor
(cup) and the hose to the caliper a real hassle to deal with. Maybe if
I had a little tiny electric vacuum pump and a shutoff valve I might
like the process a whole lot better...but I don't.
For situations where there is no brake caliper bleeder screw the
Mity-Vac kit comes with a bunch of adaptors that fit into different
sized holes...and I find these adaptors work poorly at best.
Maybe others have been more successful..but for me I'd rather have an
assistant pushing on the brake pedal.
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458 XL (reserved) 601XL
In a message dated 11/29/2007 10:50:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
> For a one man method of bleeding the brakes, Harbor Freight sells
a vacuum bleeder for less than ten bucks.
How do you connect the vacuum to the cylinder/reservoir? IS there a
nipple that fits into the fill hole where the plug normally goes?
-- Craig
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. |
Not very encouraging words for the most part. Larry Mac did the most study and
had success.
I took another route and bought the Miller Syncrowave 200 at the Oshkosh show price.
I plan on using it for other things also. I choose this welder because
it has the AC cycle and something called Balance and Pulse. These two features
make welding thin aluminum easy. The construction of the tanks was just like
the prints and the .032" 6061-T6 welded easy only requiring 28 - 30 amps for
the edge welds. More amperage was required for the fittings and ground strap.
I did use 3.25 power reading glases to bring the work closer to me. At that low
of amperage, using a 1/16" 2% thoriated tungsten, Balance at 5.0 and Pulse set
at 2.3, all I did was fuse the metal. Filler rod was 1/16" 4043 and I used
very little on the seams of the tank.
Pressure tested with bubble water and found no leaks.
It can be done. I haven't welded aluminum in over 20 years but if you keep the
metal clean, small stainless wire brush before striking an arc, and tack the
tank together, every 4" or so, you can do it too. Keep the oxidation off the
work, join your welds and watch the puddle.
The small stainless brush should only be used for pre-cleaning always just before
you strike the arc. Aluminum oxidizes real quick so, clean, stitch weld, clean,
stitch weld.
Follow this link to see the process:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=33993&row=99
I have welded aluminum using oxyacetylene, you see what I used here, with oxyacetylene,
touch ups are really hard and the welding process goes real fast, I
can't keep up. Setting the torch so it uses little oxygen from the tank and mostly
from the atmosphere helps keep the oxidation down. Flux both the joint
and the rod. You can get it from several sources. Here is one I used to work
with:
http://www.fournierenterprises.com/cart/home.php?cat=8
Blue lenses help you see the work better.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149991#149991
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