---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/05/07: 51 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:12 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bryan Martin) 2. 03:02 AM - Re: 300 hours of building progress on a 601XL (rroberts) 3. 04:36 AM - Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (ashontz) 4. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Dave Austin) 5. 05:22 AM - Re: pegastrol wings foldable? (mikef) 6. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bob Unternaehrer) 7. 06:34 AM - Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (ashontz) 8. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: pegastrol wings foldable? (LRM) 9. 08:50 AM - Removing metal scratches on Rudder (John Reinking) 10. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 11. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 12. 09:25 AM - Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (ashontz) 13. 09:33 AM - Vertical Card Compass?? (SUE MICHAELS) 14. 10:05 AM - Engine Performance for 701 (railridr dejazzd.com) 15. 10:16 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 10:22 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? () 17. 10:36 AM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (Art Olechowski) 18. 10:36 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? () 19. 10:36 AM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (Art Olechowski) 20. 11:32 AM - Re: CH601HDS Pilot Operating Handbook (aprazer) 21. 11:38 AM - Vertical card compass (tjs22t@verizon.net) 22. 11:44 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? (Terry Phillips) 23. 11:45 AM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (Bob Unternaehrer) 24. 11:53 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 25. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bryan Martin) 26. 12:17 PM - Re: Bottom Longeron Question (kevinbonds) 27. 12:26 PM - What have you got to lose??? () 28. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bryan Martin) 29. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. (Bryan Martin) 30. 12:48 PM - Re: What have you got to lose??? (Gig Giacona) 31. 12:51 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? (Bryan Martin) 32. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: What have you got to lose??? (Craig Payne) 33. 01:38 PM - Re: Extended Range Tank Sender Inspection Cover-revisited (N732JH) 34. 02:39 PM - Re: What have you got to lose??? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 35. 02:47 PM - article on vertical card compasses () 36. 02:49 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass?? (Bob Unternaehrer) 37. 03:39 PM - Re: What have you got to lose??? (steve) 38. 03:47 PM - 601XL-TD Question (Brad Cohen) 39. 04:08 PM - Re: article on vertical card compasses (Bryan Martin) 40. 04:14 PM - Re: What have you got to lose??? (Bryan Martin) 41. 04:30 PM - Re: 601XL-TD Question (LarryMcFarland) 42. 04:58 PM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (kmccune) 43. 05:14 PM - Re: Engine Performance for 701 (kmccune) 44. 06:11 PM - Re: First Hop (Matt & Jo) 45. 06:14 PM - Re: 601XL-TD Question (ZodieRocket) 46. 06:20 PM - Re: What have you got to lose??? (ZodieRocket) 47. 06:31 PM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (ZodieRocket) 48. 07:20 PM - Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder (kmccune) 49. 09:35 PM - Re: Avex Rivets (Jugle) 50. 09:56 PM - Free steel beams (Richard Vetterli) 51. 11:21 PM - Re: Avex Rivets (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:58 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich to burn. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a diesel fuel tank is too lean to burn. In either case, a spark will have no effect. In a tank used for jet fuel, it's a different story. The vapor pressure of kerosine falls somewhere in between, so there might be a real hazard there. On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Dave Thompson wrote: > =93The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the > gauge and has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less > than 1 volt.=94 > > A 1 volt power source shorted to ground will spark. Granted, not > very much, but how much spark does it take to set off Gas fumes? I > wouldn=92t want to find out at 5000 ft. Insolate all =93hot=94 > connections, even =93switched Grounds=94. > > Dave Thompson > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 300 hours of building progress on a 601XL From: "rroberts" Well put Patrick...keep on plugging away ans soon we'll be reading about you're 1st launch! -------- Low & Slow Rick www.n701rr.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150542#150542 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. From: "ashontz" All good questions to be aware of. I wouldn't say any one person is an authority hence the useful thread to get everyone opinion. Personally, I'd say any spark at any voltage is not good, but generally sparks need a lot of voltage, even static electricity from your body to the house lightswitch from walking across the carpet is something like 10,000 volts, but almost imperceptible amperage. But a 1 volt spark is possible. Just to be safe, I'd insulate any 'hot' lead just in case for some reason (rattling tank, dent in wing skin) causes it to touch something grounded. On another note, I recieved my Gas Welding Aluminum kit from Ron Fournier yesterday. Awesome video. He made some really nice looking welds right there in realtime on the video, one for a fuel tank even, and it didn't look all that difficult, it looks mostly like common sense and he did a good job explaining what he's doing. VERY nive looking actual welds, not brazed. He also showed how to not weld aluminum and how to just burn right through the material. The thing that I found interesting was that when he burned though the aluminum while demonstrating how to NOT weld was that the aluminum didn't flow away UNTIL he poked the filler rod in it, which would suggest to be that basically what he did was break the surface tension of the pool by feeding too much filler into the weld pool that had too much heat in it. While demonstrating proper welding it was done with just quick little dabs with the filler. While fusion welding he just moved flame slowly over the joint and he actually had the flame in contact with the aluminum a lot longer than I would have expected, so it seems that not disturbing the surface tension of the weld pool too much is another key feature of aluminum welding. I'm looking forward to trying it this weekend. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150546#150546 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:31 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. Don't forget that if the wire from the gauge is disconnected/broken at the sender there is 12 V on that mother when no current is flowing. It will spark. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: pegastrol wings foldable? From: "mikef" Ray, Thanks for those details, that is what I was looking for. The more folks I talk to about the 701 and those wings, the more I think about how to talk my wife out of her 1/2 of the garage.... Thanks again! Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150549#150549 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:09 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. <<>> NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE. AND YES I AM "SHOUTING". BOB U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 4:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich to burn. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a diesel fuel tank is too lean to burn. In either case, a spark will have no effect. In a tank used for jet fuel, it's a different story. The vapor pressure of kerosine falls somewhere in between, so there might be a real hazard there. On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Dave Thompson wrote: =93The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the gauge and has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less than 1 volt.=94 A 1 volt power source shorted to ground will spark. Granted, not very much, but how much spark does it take to set off Gas fumes? I wouldn=92t want to find out at 5000 ft. Insolate all =93hot=94 connections, even =93switched Grounds=94. Dave Thompson -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. From: "ashontz" They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen. These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing. That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode. Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure. [quote="shilcom"] NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE. AND YES I AM "SHOUTING". BOB U. > --- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150559#150559 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:33 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: pegastrol wings foldable? Of course you realize the wings are not available anymore. Hopefully Raymond will have them up for production sometime in 08. I got an e-mail from him yesterday and he is building his CNC equipment this winter. I hope so, because I get a lot of e-mails from people with a lot of interest. LRM, www.skyhawg.com PS, I putting LRM now because there are too many Larrys on the list and I find myself answering other Larry's messages. Take care. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikef" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: pegastrol wings foldable? > > Ray, > > Thanks for those details, that is what I was looking for. The more folks I > talk to about the 701 and those wings, the more I think about how to talk > my wife out of her 1/2 of the garage.... > > Thanks again! > > Mike > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150549#150549 > > > -- > 12/4/2007 10:52 AM > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:42 AM PST US From: John Reinking Subject: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder Just finished riveting the rudder together. Being a newbie builder, even being careful, have all kinds of very thin scratches on the skin surfaces. Is this deadly? Is there some way to buff them out and (lastly) quick instructions on how to do that? Thanks, gang, John Reinking (starting 601XL) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:53 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. All fuel tanks are vented because of pressure that builds in them. I'm sure there are some Cessna owners out there that can remember the day they went to the airport to fly on a hot day and it looked like someone put a balloon in you wing because the vent got clogged an expanded tank can pop out rivets and severely distort the metal. Cars also have a vent it is in the filler cap. Jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 9:35:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen. These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing. That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode. Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure. [quote="shilcom"] NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE. AND YES I AM "SHOUTING". BOB U. > --- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150559#150559 **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:20 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. They test it to make sure the vent is working properly. In a message dated 12/5/2007 12:09:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Afterfxllc@aol.com writes: They even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. From: "ashontz" Cars have vents too? So what is that gas cap test then? I thought maybe there was a checkvalve in it to only allow air in as the fule level goes down. Every time I take my gas cap off of any of my cars they go ""Scheeewwwww" as the pressure is released. I was under the assumption that cars didn't have vents, at least cars that have feed and return to the tank fuel lines. I know my Nissan pickup has a return line to the tank. I'm not doubting you, just curious. Is it possible some are vented and some aren't. As far as ballooning, I know if I leave my mower fuel tank out in the sun it will balloon a bit. I guess that would not only possibly disrupt the wing skins (especially if it's a wet wing) but also be bad for the tank welds if it's a welded tank. [quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]All fuel tanks are vented because of pressure that builds in them. I'm sure there are some Cessna owners out there that can remember the day they went to the airport to fly on a hot day and it looked like someone put a balloon in you wing because the vent got clogged an expanded tank can pop out rivets and severely distort the metal. Cars also have a vent it is in the filler cap. Jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 9:35:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" > > They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen. > > These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing. > > That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode. > > Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure. > > > > [quote="shilcom"] > > NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE. AND YES I AM "SHOUTING". ? BOB U. > > > > --- > > > > > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150559#150559 > > > hottest products and top money wasters (http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002) of 2007. > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150592#150592 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:24 AM PST US From: SUE MICHAELS Subject: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing that the windshield drapes over. I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. George ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:28 AM PST US From: "railridr dejazzd.com" Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Performance for 701 --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:19 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? George, I don't want to shortchange your intelligence, or start something, but the best advise I can give is to do a lot of research. I, too, wanted a vertical card compass, because it looks right and it reads right. However, in my research, I found way too many reports that the things just don't work. Be careful! Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J SUE MICHAELS wrote: > Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing that the windshield drapes over. > > I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > > George > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:24 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? George, I'm not sure if this is an apples and oranges comparison or not, but I bought a vertical card compass form an outfit called "Falcon Gauge" for my fat ultralight a few years ago. Their stuff is reasonably priced with the vertical card compass being a bit over $200 . The gauges are Asian made and mostly okay but the vertical card compass went haywire almost immediately. Apparently the linkage is rather delicate and the vibration made it FUBAR in no time at all. I don't know if Falcon instruments are the same stuff as what I got from Falcon Gauge but beware. Dred ---- SUE MICHAELS wrote: > Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing that the windshield drapes over. > > I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder John, I would say its not deadly but some attention may be necessary. Can you catch the scratch with a fingernail? If so it is probably worth taking out. I had some rather deep scratches perpendicular to the aluminum grain on my rudder spar and I used 400grit alum oxide paper to get them out. Since it was is the spar I went with the grain also. If they aree minor scratches you may get them out with some (MAROON 7447 3M Scotchbrite Pads). Whatever you choose to use make sure it is not iron (ferrous) based material. Silicon or Aluminum Oxide is the choice of content. Art --- John Reinking wrote: > > Just finished riveting the rudder together. Being a newbie builder, > even being careful, have all kinds of very thin scratches on the skin > surfaces. Is this deadly? Is there some way to buff them out and > (lastly) quick instructions on how to do that? > Thanks, gang, John Reinking (starting 601XL) > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? The exception would be one that has an electronic display derived from a remote magnetometer rather than one with a magnet driving a complicted and delicate linkage. Dred ---- Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > George, I don't want to shortchange your intelligence, or start something, but the best advise I can give is to do a lot of research. I, too, wanted a vertical card compass, because it looks right and it reads right. However, in my research, I found way too many reports that the things just don't work. Be careful! > > Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J > > > SUE MICHAELS wrote: > > > Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing that the windshield drapes over. > > > > I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > > > > George > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder John, I would say its not deadly but some attention may be necessary. Can you catch the scratch with a fingernail? If so it is probably worth taking out. I had some rather deep scratches perpendicular to the aluminum grain on my rudder spar and I used 400grit alum oxide paper to get them out. Since it was is the spar I went with the grain also. If they aree minor scratches you may get them out with some (MAROON 7447 3M Scotchbrite Pads). Whatever you choose to use make sure it is not iron (ferrous) based material. Silicon or Aluminum Oxide is the choice of content. Art --- John Reinking wrote: > > Just finished riveting the rudder together. Being a newbie builder, > even being careful, have all kinds of very thin scratches on the skin > surfaces. Is this deadly? Is there some way to buff them out and > (lastly) quick instructions on how to do that? > Thanks, gang, John Reinking (starting 601XL) > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601HDS Pilot Operating Handbook From: "aprazer" Good Morning! Would someone with a 601XL with 3300 Jabiru with gross weight of 1320lbs be willing to share their POH with me? Thanking you in advance, Mack Kreizenbeck 601XL in final stages -------- The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150615#150615 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:37 AM PST US From: tjs22t@verizon.net Subject: Zenith-List: Vertical card compass >I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. George, I used a few Falcon instruments when finishing up my HDS five years ago. None of them are still in the a/c - and all of them were given away; no way I could accept $ for the quality being "gifted." Look into a PAI 700 vertical card compass. With over 300 hours on mine it works fine; even during flight reviews the compass allows me to roll out very close to instructed headings, and this without an attitude indicator in the plane. The PAI is TSO'ed and once some flying club members got onto it they installed units into both of the club's 172's. No issues. Jay, as you said, not to start anything but what "research" did you do and what results did you find? How much real world time do you have flying with TSO'ed vertical card compasses? What issues arose? check your six tj ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:24 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? George I recall a thread about the Falcon Vertical Card Compasses in the past year or so on one of the forums I read. My recollection is that the Falcon compasses were not reliable, and that replacement was not possible. I suggest that if you want a vertical card compass, buy the Precision Vertical Card compass for $270 from Aircraft Spruce or wherever. On the other hand if you want an inexpensive compass, buy a standard panel mount compass like the one Van's sells for $100. Either way, you'll get a reliable instrument. I suspect that it is not cheap to manufacture a reliable vertical card compass. Terry At 09:31 AM 12/5/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful >in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing >that the windshield drapes over. > >I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back >order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a >template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld >an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > >George Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:01 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder If you are going to paint, then wait till painting time. If you can feel the scratch with your fingernail, then work on it with red scotchbrite pad and if that doesn't do it start with 250 grit emry paper and get courser as needed. I but scotch brite will get it out. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Reinking To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:45 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder Just finished riveting the rudder together. Being a newbie builder, even being careful, have all kinds of very thin scratches on the skin surfaces. Is this deadly? Is there some way to buff them out and (lastly) quick instructions on how to do that? Thanks, gang, John Reinking (starting 601XL) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:51 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 2:45:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ttp44@rkymtn.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Terry Phillips George I recall a thread about the Falcon Vertical Card Compasses in the past year or so on one of the forums I read. My recollection is that the Falcon compasses were not reliable, and that replacement was not possible. I suggest that if you want a vertical card compass, buy the Precision Vertical Card compass for $270 from Aircraft Spruce or wherever. On the other hand if you want an inexpensive compass, buy a standard panel mount compass like the one Van's sells for $100. Either way, you'll get a reliable instrument. I suspect that it is not cheap to manufacture a reliable vertical card compass. Terry At 09:31 AM 12/5/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful >in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing >that the windshield drapes over. > >I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back >order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a >template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld >an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > >George Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:42 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. An empty gas can (with no liquid left inside) may contain an explosive mixture. A gas can that has had a large portion of the liquid recently poured out of it and fresh air vented in to replace it may contain an explosive mixture for a while but soon, the vapor coming off the liquid will enrich the mixture well beyond the upper explosive limit and create a non-flammable mixture. I was referring to a vehicle gasoline tank. There are damn few situations where a flammable mixture can form inside a gasoline tank. You would have to somehow get enough air into the tank quickly enough to purge most of the vapor or drain all the liquid and let it set until enough air has diffused into the tank to create a flammable mixture. Fires involving a vehicle's gas tank generally start from an ignition of vapors leaking outside of the tank. Gas tanks just don't explode like they show in the movies. I mistakenly thought the post I was responding to was referring to a spark inside the tank. A spark in the space between the tank and the wing skin is a different story. I can see a situation where a flammable mixture can form in there. Even so, it takes a pretty hot spark to ignite gasoline, I don't think you will get that from shorting out the wire from the fuel gauge. The voltage is low and the current will be extremely limited by the resistance of the gauge. There's a reason why you need an ignition coil generating several thousand volts to ignite the fuel charge in the cylinders. In any case, I made damn sure that there was no possibility of my senders shorting out. I stuffed enough cork padding around that area to prevent any contact with the wing skin and then covered the sender terminals with insulation. On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > << rich to burn>>> > > NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE. AND YES I AM > "SHOUTING". BOB U. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryan Martin > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. > > The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich > to burn. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a diesel fuel tank > is too lean to burn. In either case, a spark will have no effect. In > a tank used for jet fuel, it's a different story. The vapor pressure > of kerosine falls somewhere in between, so there might be a real > hazard there. > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Dave Thompson wrote: > >> =93The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the >> gauge and has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less >> than 1 volt.=94 >> >> A 1 volt power source shorted to ground will spark. Granted, not >> very much, but how much spark does it take to set off Gas fumes? I >> wouldn=92t want to find out at 5000 ft. Insolate all =93hot=94 >> connections, even =93switched Grounds=94. >> >> Dave Thompson >> -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:13 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bottom Longeron Question Brad When you get to the point of drilling those longerons together along with the doubler, pay close attention to your edge distance and distance to the bend. My holes are a little close to the bend inside the doubler on account of the height of the stack. Wish I would have spent a little more time analyzing this before I drilled. Becomes kind of a tight squeeze because the side of the extruded L is short. Better to be close to the bend than to the edge I reckon though. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brad Cohen Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Bottom Longeron Question I am finally getting to work on the Fuselage of my 601XL and I am trying not to repeat dumb a** mistakes that I have made thus far so I figured I had better ask; I have the standard kit (not quickbuild) and I am fitting the bottom longeron 6B2-3 to the rear longeron 6B2-1. It appears that I will have to ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:32 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said >the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from >the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with >a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how >this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with compass? Better ask. tj do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:16 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. In the apollo I disaster, they were using pure oxygen at 20 psi, five psi above ambient pressure to simulate the pressure differential the capsule would see in space. Anything that can burn will burn really, really well with that much oxygen present. Oxygen at 20 psi is just f**king dangerous. Car fuel tanks are not vented because the EPA says they can't be vented. Gas fumes used to be a big contributer to smog. Now the EPA requires that gasoline vapor emissions be tightly controlled. Boats and airplane gas tanks are vented because there aren't millions and millions of them running around on in the big cities and the EPA hasn't bothered to go after them, yet. There has been some talk about requiring stricter emission controls on lawn mowers though. According to the reports I've read, the Zodiac that went down in California may have had a fuel leak in the engine compartment leading to an explosion. On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:33 AM, ashontz wrote: > > They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, > 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then > someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen. > > These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and > crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say > taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, > explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing. > > That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a > venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode. > > Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or > should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test > the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:02 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks. Cars used to have vented fuel tanks, now they have elaborate vapor recovery systems involving charcoal canisters, check valves and many feet of tubing. They probably still have relief valves in case the pressure in the tank gets too high. On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:23 PM, ashontz wrote: > > Cars have vents too? So what is that gas cap test then? I thought > maybe there was a checkvalve in it to only allow air in as the fule > level goes down. Every time I take my gas cap off of any of my cars > they go ""Scheeewwwww" as the pressure is released. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: What have you got to lose??? From: "Gig Giacona" Correct but there is no TSO requirement for the type of compass in a EXP-HB. As far as an EFIS as a compass they should. tjs22t(at)verizon.net wrote: > > Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with compass? Better ask. > > tj do not archive -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150633#150633 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:28 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? I originally had a Hamilton vertical card compass in my Zodiac. It worked fine when it wasn't actually in the airplane but I couldn't find a place either in the panel or on the glare shield where I could get the thing properly tuned in. It was too bulky to hang from the canopy. One day I saw an Airguide automotive compass at Walmart for $10. It had azimuth markings in 10 degree increments like an aircraft compass. I bought it and put it in my Jeep. I went through the calibration procedure detailed in the instructions and soon had it working accurately on all headings. I started wondering how well it would work in my plane. I attached it to the canopy above the glare shield and took the plane out on the ramp to do the calibration. In a short time I had the compass reading with acceptable accuracy on all headings. After a short test flight, I ripped the vertical card compass out of the plane and put it up for sale on eBay the next day. On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:31 PM, SUE MICHAELS wrote: > Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is > helpful in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the > overhead tubing that the windshield drapes over. > > I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on > back order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to > have a template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so > I can weld an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > > George > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:54 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: What have you got to lose??? The actual wording is "magnetic indicating device" I believe. I have seen a number of (approved and flying) panels with nothing but an EFIS. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Extended Range Tank Sender Inspection Cover-revisited From: "N732JH" Thanks Scott. This approach was my first guess too. I found some 1/16 Nylon sheets at aircraft spruce. I'm probably going to rivet the cover, and hope I never need to get into this space. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150645#150645 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:22 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? The DAR that tells you what to put in your airplane is not doing his job.... His job is to inspect your aircraft and make sure it is in a "Condition for safe operation" and if he wouldn't give you an airworthiness certificate because you had a cheap compass than you my friend have pissed off your DAR. If you were correct in your assumption then he could also say you can't fly with that Stewart Warner Tack or that car motor. The Dynon is not TSO'd either. Just because something costs more doesn't mean it's better or not worthy of flight. Jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 3:28:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tjs22t@verizon.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said >the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from >the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with >a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how >this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with compass? Better ask. tj do not archive **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:39 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: article on vertical card compasses Here's an excellent article on "repairing" the vertical card compass: http://www.avionicswest.com/articles.htm#MAGNETIC%20COMPASS! You will find a bit of work may save your inoperatible VCC. I listed this article about six or seven years ago after Grant C. complained about his. He followed this article and the compass was right on. Bryan, this might have been the problem with your Hamiliton. I think Fred Hulen has a Hamilton and it works fine. When installing my PAI 700 I used brass tools. don't forget to flare tj ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:56 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? I believe you still have to have a Boy Scout type compass to get it passed. Maybe someone has experiece getting it passed using the dynon compass or other electronic one. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass?? I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 2:45:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ttp44@rkymtn.net writes: George I recall a thread about the Falcon Vertical Card Compasses in the past year or so on one of the forums I read. My recollection is that the Falcon compasses were not reliable, and that replacement was not possible. I suggest that if you want a vertical card compass, buy the Precision Vertical Card compass for $270 from Aircraft Spruce or wherever. On the other hand if you want an inexpensive compass, buy a standard panel mount compass like the one Van's sells for $100. Either way, you'll get a reliable instrument. I suspect that it is not cheap to manufacture a reliable vertical card compass. Terry At 09:31 AM 12/5/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Okay don't hurt me because I'm building a Kitfox, but your list is helpful >in finding stuff. The compass will be installed on the overhead tubing >that the windshield drapes over. > >I have been looking for a Falcon Vertical Card Compass. This is on back >order from every company I talk to. I would at least like to have a >template of the mounting bracket supplied with the compass so I can weld >an overhead mounting plate before the windshield install. > >George Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done; working on the stab http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:28 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? CFRs state that your aircraft must have a "magnetic direction device". Doesnt say make or ect.... SW----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? The DAR that tells you what to put in your airplane is not doing his job.... His job is to inspect your aircraft and make sure it is in a "Condition for safe operation" and if he wouldn't give you an airworthiness certificate because you had a cheap compass than you my friend have pissed off your DAR. If you were correct in your assumption then he could also say you can't fly with that Stewart Warner Tack or that car motor. The Dynon is not TSO'd either. Just because something costs more doesn't mean it's better or not worthy of flight. Jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 3:28:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tjs22t@verizon.net writes: I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said >the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from >the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with >a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how >this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with compass? Better ask. tj do not sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:52 PM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL-TD Question OK, this is for those of you with TD's out there; I am seriously considering replacing all A4's with A5's in the rear fuselage. My assumption is the following; Yes. using all A5's will increase the weight. Nominally (5#, maybe 10, but I doubt this much) Maybe not the entire tail, I guess the turtledeck could be A4's but I am looking at taking this trade-off for the increased strength. I am thinking about all the abuse the tailfeathers will take once I start three-point landings. Any thoughts? Brad Cohen ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:50 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: article on vertical card compasses I found this article myself several months ago, I thought it might be the problem with mine. I checked it out and this definitely wasn't the problem. the compass would work correctly away from the airplane but if i set it on the glare shield, it absolutely refused to point north or south and I used non magnetic tools to install and adjust it. If I could have found a way to mount it up on the canopy where the Walmart compass is mounted now, maybe it would have worked. But if the $10 compass works why bother with the $200 compass. I do my navigating with a GPS anyway and I also have a DG. The only time the compass comes in handy is to reset the DG on a cross country flight. On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:46 PM, wrote: > > Here's an excellent article on "repairing" the vertical card compass: > > http://www.avionicswest.com/articles.htm#MAGNETIC%20COMPASS! > > You will find a bit of work may save your inoperatible VCC. I > listed this article about six or seven years ago after Grant C. > complained about his. He followed this article and the compass was > right on. > > Bryan, this might have been the problem with your Hamiliton. I > think Fred Hulen has a Hamilton and it works fine. When installing > my PAI 700 I used brass tools. > > don't forget to flare tj -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:46 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? Exactly, if your DAR refuses to give you an airworthiness certificate because of your compass, fire the son of a bitch and find someone else. He obviously doesn't know his job. There's no requirement for an aircraft approved compass in a home built. On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:27 PM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > The DAR that tells you what to put in your airplane is not doing his > job.... His job is to inspect your aircraft and make sure it is in a > "Condition for safe operation" and if he wouldn't give you an > airworthiness certificate because you had a cheap compass than you > my friend have pissed off your DAR. If you were correct in your > assumption then he could also say you can't fly with that Stewart > Warner Tack or that car motor. The Dynon is not TSO'd either. Just > because something costs more doesn't mean it's better or not worthy > of flight. > > Jeff > > In a message dated 12/5/2007 3:28:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tjs22t@verizon.net > writes: > > I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said > >the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from > >the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with > >a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how > >this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. > > Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve > it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations > require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with > compass? Better ask. > > tj do not sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you > for -Matt Dralle, List he es y -- > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:24 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-TD Question Brad, Rivet size is determined by the material and loads that are being supported. To arbitrarily put in A5s you place excessive loading on the thin materials, you limit your options when you miss the size and have to go to the next larger to compensate and you gain none of the material strength by using A5s where A4s are specified. Stay with plan "a" would be my recommendation. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Brad Cohen wrote: > > OK, > this is for those of you with TD's out there; > > I am seriously considering replacing all A4's with A5's in the rear > fuselage. > > My assumption is the following; Yes. using all A5's will increase the > weight. Nominally (5#, maybe 10, but I doubt this much) Maybe not the > entire tail, I guess the turtledeck could be A4's but I am looking at > taking this trade-off for the increased strength. I am thinking about > all the abuse the tailfeathers will take once I start three-point > landings. > > Any thoughts? > > Brad Cohen > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder From: "kmccune" Sorry for sticking my nose in your post reinkings(at)comcast.net, but what if your buffing most of the skin, instead of painting? Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150669#150669 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Performance for 701 From: "kmccune" I recently went through this dilemma. I just "barley" started the rudder, but I couldn't start anything until I came up with an affordable engine. I have WWs Corvair manual and am still anxious about his buddy's 701 project, but I'm not holding my breath. The VW to get any performance needs water-cooled heads. These are available but by the time you add these and the re-drive, you are getting pretty close to the weight limit. This left the Suzuki. There are several re-drive mfgs, but they really don't provide much info about the engine, or even the re-drive for that matter.Send me an email and I'll send you what info I have found. There are some 701/Suzuki builders on this site that recently got their tail numbers so keep checking it out as they have promised info. Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150673#150673 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:24 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Hop Fantastic Scott. Best of luck with the rest of your flight test program. I can't wait to join you. I hope to be there in a couple of months. Cheers Matt www.zodiacxl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Laughlin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: Zenith-List: First Hop Hi guys: Yesterday, December 3, 2007, my four+ year project left the ground for the first time as an airplane. It was only a baby step and we shut it down to check everything out after the first hop, but all looks good and first flight will take place when we get good weather again. Here's a video I took: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Videos/First%20Hop%2012_3_2007.wmv I can't describe how fantastic it feels to see your airplane fly for the first time even if it is just a hop. Scott Laughlin CH601XL/Corvair http://www.cooknwithgas.com/index.html Omaha, Nebraska ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in! ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:54 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL-TD Question I often find myself agreeing with Larry, he is a very smart man. Other then the reason Larry outlined take into consideration that the 601 series is 27 years old now and the Tail Dragger version was far more popular in the early models. These used A4 rivets and are still using them today with many hundreds of trouble free hours. Don't bother changing something that has proven not to need changing. Adding strength when not required is of no value. However, if you really want a stronger Fuselage then flush rivet it. It doesn't need it one bit but It makes for a flat surface for painting and esthetics on the paint job is a better reason then using A5's which add little or no benefit. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-TD Question Brad, Rivet size is determined by the material and loads that are being supported. To arbitrarily put in A5s you place excessive loading on the thin materials, you limit your options when you miss the size and have to go to the next larger to compensate and you gain none of the material strength by using A5s where A4s are specified. Stay with plan "a" would be my recommendation. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Brad Cohen wrote: > > OK, > this is for those of you with TD's out there; > > I am seriously considering replacing all A4's with A5's in the rear > fuselage. > > My assumption is the following; Yes. using all A5's will increase the > weight. Nominally (5#, maybe 10, but I doubt this much) Maybe not the > entire tail, I guess the turtledeck could be A4's but I am looking at > taking this trade-off for the increased strength. I am thinking about > all the abuse the tailfeathers will take once I start three-point > landings. > > Any thoughts? > > Brad Cohen > > 12/5/2007 8:41 AM 12/5/2007 8:41 AM ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:46 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? I find a compass a useless piece of avionics in today cockpits. With my Dynon/Sensornetics and GPS why the heckdo I still need a compass. Oh right the Canadian Government will not give me a flight authority without a =93Whiskey Compass=94 Not a remote compass like my Dynon, not a card compass or a directional gyro but a Whiskey Compass. I think I have finally figured out why!! If I go down in the frozen north wilderness of Canada I can crack open my whiskey compass and drink the contents, blindness would follow shortly. The fine gov officials know that I would not want to see just how screwed I am after they cut spending on our search and rescue resources again. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? CFRs state that your aircraft must have a "magnetic direction device". Doesnt say make or ect.... SW----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com"Afterfxllc@aol.com "mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com"zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What have you got to lose??? The DAR that tells you what to put in your airplane is not doing his job.... His job is to inspect your aircraft and make sure it is in a "Condition for safe operation" and if he wouldn't give you an airworthiness certificate because you had a cheap compass than you my friend have pissed off your DAR. If you were correct in your assumption then he could also say you can't fly with that Stewart Warner Tack or that car motor. The Dynon is not TSO'd either. Just because something costs more doesn't mean it's better or not worthy of flight. Jeff In a message dated 12/5/2007 3:28:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tjs22t@verizon.net writes: I have heard some guys talking about compass's and they have said >the cheapest and most reliable one they found came straight from >the auto parts store. I don't know if this is true or not but with >a dynon and a GPS this is kind triple redundant so I could see how >this might work but for 20 bucks what have you got to lose. Jeff, what you have to lose is time if your inspector won't approve it. The inspector or DAR might pan such a cheapie as regulations require a compass. Would they allow it if you have an EFIS with compass? Better ask. tj do not sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===================== _____ hottest products and HYPERLINK "http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolt o p00030000000002" \ntop money wasters of 2007. href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronh r ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 12/5/2007 8:41 AM 12/5/2007 8:41 AM ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:00 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder If your nail is stuck in it then mild buffing is in order, but since it is on the skin I would not worry too much, the properties of 6061 will allow it to stay resistant to corrosion. If you are buffing your plane then it will come out. If your painting then a small amount of putty will remove all trace. Once again this is for a skin in which we have a scratch that we are not worried about becoming a crack. If this was a spar then all trace would need to be removed. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Reinking Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:45 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Removing metal scratches on Rudder Just finished riveting the rudder together. Being a newbie builder, even being careful, have all kinds of very thin scratches on the skin surfaces. Is this deadly? Is there some way to buff them out and (lastly) quick instructions on how to do that? Thanks, gang, John Reinking (starting 601XL) 12/5/2007 8:41 AM 12/5/2007 8:41 AM ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Removing metal scratches on Rudder From: "kmccune" Thanks Mark, I was thinking it was more of a problem then that. Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150686#150686 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Avex Rivets From: "Jugle" Thanks Christian, you and others here have helped to clarify. Glenn cj.tremblay(at)videotron. wrote: > > Avex Rivets that you specifies on you email are the good ones. Avex rivets > are Avex rivets. Chris H. made special disclosure about testing the rivets, > you can do those test if you want. Big confusion exist about Avex rivets > base on Chris H declaration about those rivets, somebody said only those > produce in UK are ok, others could be produced in China? But who now where > Avex produced their stuff today ? > > Buy the rivets sold by Spruce Aircraft and don't let anybody confuse you on > that question. If they are produce by Avex in sold by Aircraft Spruce, I > believe they are ok. I used thousand of them, never find one defective. > > Some time to much opinion is too much and it's confuse the builder judgment. > > -------- Glenn Andressen 601XL- just started. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150699#150699 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:20 PM PST US From: Richard Vetterli Subject: Zenith-List: Free steel beams Now that my plane is sitting on it's gear, I've got six 2" square metal beams that I no longer need. I've got 4 beams that are 4' long and two beams that are 6' long. Here's the deal. First come, first served. FREE. I'll be happy to ship them if you pay the freight, but that might cost more than they are worth. E-mail me off list if interested. PS. I've also got some plastic sawhorses that I could let go as well. Rich Vetterli Pleasanton, CA 601XL/Corvair Tail & wings complete. Fuselage & engine 75% done. Check out my progress at: www.geocities.com/stixx5a Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Avex Rivets From: "TxDave" Zenith no longer gets their Avex rivets from the UK. There is only one source and that's in China. The UK plant is no longer producing these rivets. The ones Zenith purchases are from the same source as Aircraft Spruce. There is NO DIFFERENCE except that Zenith runs random tests. Don't believe me...call ZAC and ask them. I did. Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150704#150704 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.