---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/16/07: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:53 AM - Re: carbon monoxide (Terry Phillips) 2. 12:55 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Bob Unternaehrer) 3. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Craig Payne) 4. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Juan Vega) 5. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Juan Vega) 6. 06:03 AM - Re: 601XL - Riveting HT Attachment Brackets (staufferm) 7. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (steve) 8. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Jeff) 9. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (steve) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: carbon monoxide (Tim Juhl) 11. 09:06 AM - Fw: Carb (Bill Naumuk) 12. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Carlos Sa) 13. 09:20 AM - Re: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. (Tom Lyon) 14. 09:22 AM - Is check valve in fuel return line needed? (Martin Pohl) 15. 09:22 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (PatrickW) 16. 10:21 AM - Re: carbon monoxide (Bryan Martin) 17. 11:02 AM - Re: carbon monoxide (Jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 11:30 AM - N601EL receives E-LSA certification! (Scott Thatcher) 19. 11:49 AM - Re: Is check valve in fuel return line needed? (george may) 20. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Paul Tipton) 21. 11:52 AM - Re: carbon monoxide (Gary Boothe) 22. 11:54 AM - Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! (Edward Moody II) 23. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (robert stone) 24. 01:30 PM - Re: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. (Dale Medendorp) 25. 01:47 PM - Re: carbon monoxide (Tim Juhl) 26. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Jeff) 27. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (steve) 28. 02:17 PM - Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! (Ron Lendon) 29. 02:32 PM - Re: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. (jetboy) 30. 02:34 PM - Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! (rroberts) 31. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Jeff) 32. 02:43 PM - 601 and wing failiers (kmccune) 33. 04:04 PM - Re: carbon monoxide (n801bh@netzero.com) 34. 04:37 PM - Canopy seals (Matt & Jo) 35. 04:40 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (Paul Mulwitz) 36. 04:47 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (annken100) 37. 06:23 PM - Re: Canopy seals (Juan Vega) 38. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Juan Vega) 39. 07:00 PM - 601XL Canopy (steve) 40. 09:07 PM - Re: Re: carbon monoxide (Jeff) 41. 09:24 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (Bryan Martin) 42. 10:12 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (Canatukker) 43. 10:31 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (annken100) 44. 10:59 PM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (Canatukker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:44 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide I really like Larry's sandwich construct to close off the slots. However, I'm concerned that there will still not be an effective fire barrier. I haven't begun to design it yet, but I'm thinking combining Larry's sandwich with something like the eyeball fittings sold by Van's, Cat No. EYEBALL TTP-125 http://tinyurl.com/2t6rwd to provide a better seal. I haven't looked at heater valve supplied with my FWF kit. But I'm considering the stainless steel heater valve sold by epm.av: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html I also like their firewall penetration systems. Then, again, I wonder, does it make sense to work to really seal the fire wall when the cowl is epoxy-fiberglass composite, and the only thing between me and a fire coming out of the cowl is a Plexiglass canopy? I really don't know. Any thoughts? Terry At 12:44 PM 12/15/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Bobby, >I put a sealed sandwich construct behind the slots that is held by two >bolts. An O-ring grommet fits the steering rod and effectively seals the >opening. >Not hard to make as an afterthought. Install should be the same. See link, >http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier.gif >http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier-2.gif >Put a little silicone seal around the edge toward the firewall and allow >the slider with grommet to move up, down and a small amount sideways and >you've got it. > >I'd also suggest you extend your exhaust pipe(s) to one side and or behind >the firewall. > >Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > >BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >> >>to all >>i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated >>about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder >>and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 >>tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i >>noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the >>vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO >>out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker >>in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i >>have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my >>steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat but i am planning to >>make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to >>find a solution fast >>please help, >> >>Bobby Paulk >>N131BP > > >Terry Phillips >ttp44~at~rkymtn.net >Corvallis MT >601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail (almost) finished; working on the wings >http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:23 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:25 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== bsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:37 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Blue RTV to seal the Gascolator location works perfect. With the mufflers extended down with 5 iunch extensions I have no CO. -----Original Message----- >From: Craig Payne >Sent: Dec 16, 2007 4:05 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > >Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking >through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice >hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the >gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. > > > >-- Craig > > > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >Unternaehrer >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be >talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin >vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, >especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the >cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any >firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Tim Juhl > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM > >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > > >Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. > >The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the >exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the >exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the >engine compartment. > >Tim > >-------- >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 > > >Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; >Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== > >bsp; via the Web >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:21 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide To All; Put you mufflers on, and look to se how far past the firewall the pipes go. They should come down enought and far enough back to blow the exhaust into the slip stream and not on the plane. SImple fix is look at the pipe from the side and meaure with wire the length. down. Take your muffler to a regular muffler shop or better and machine race car shop. For ten bucks they will make you a set of clamp on extensions to the muffler. Mine work great. I get no CO in cabin, No heat in cabin either. By cutting the extesnion tip at a 45 degree angle away from hull, there is little noise in flight , no resonance. No difference in performance either. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: Tim Juhl >Sent: Dec 16, 2007 12:03 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > >Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. > >The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. > >Tim > >-------- >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL - Riveting HT Attachment Brackets From: "staufferm" Patrick, I would not rivet the HS brackets at this time. I always have to remove one or two to put the HS in place when the upper rear skin is in place. After I fit the saddle and trim the rear top skin more it may not be an issue. Have a great day! Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152500#152500 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:33 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first disapointment in the design. I aint never going to have a source of a gas leak in my cabin area. I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron=================== === bsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========== http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Z enith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:51 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide do not archive Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601. Jeff Davidson _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first disapointment in the design. I aint never going to have a source of a gas leak in my cabin area. I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== bsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:57 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide OK, what is the "Check" design ???? Sw ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:46 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide do not archive Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601. Jeff Davidson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:05 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first disapointment in the design. I aint never going to have a source of a gas leak in my cabin area. I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron=================== === bsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========== http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Z enith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Z enith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide From: "Tim Juhl" I think he is referring to 601's as built in Czechoslovakia. Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152514#152514 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:44 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Carb > Brandon- > That's what I wanted to know-you bet I'll post. It's all too easy to be > pennywise and pound foolish in the building game. > In Iraq? What, your desert wasn't big enough? Watch your 6, bud, and > come back safe. We're pulling for you. > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Tucker" > To: "Bill Naumuk" > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:36 AM > Subject: Re: Carb > > >> Bill, >> >> I built my fuel system similar to yours. I built >> my header tank to fit behind my instruments, which >> ended up being around 12 gallons. I built my wing >> tanks to fit in the leading edge of the wings, leaving >> the wing baggage lockers free for baggage. -Only used >> them once, however, for sleeping bags... Many >> builders are against the idea of the header tank. I >> fly 1920's biplanes on weekends, when I am in the >> states, and they have 42 gallon fuel tanks in the >> front cockpit - so I am kinda used to it. I like the >> simplicity of the header tank, gravity feed system. >> If I lose power to either fuel pump in the wing tanks, >> I just land on what I have in the header - no >> problem... >> >> I have had issues with the Aerocarb. To be >> honest, I don't like it at all. I fiddled with it for >> a year, and could never get it right. I used the >> biggest taper needle they have, and I could not get it >> rich enough at full power. I had to run it too rich >> at idle, just to get it to work at all at full power. >> Whenever the weather changes more than 40 degrees or >> so, I have to adjust. I live in the desert! Cold in >> the winter, and very hot in the summer. The mixture >> adjustment on the carburetor is simply a small kneedle >> valve. It is worthless. Also, because of the posa >> style tapered needle being on one side of the carb, >> one bank of cylinders would run leaner than the other, >> on my engine. I did not have the room to install it >> according to the installation manual, and attribute >> the uneaven mixture problem to that. >> >> Before I left for Iraq, I had a loss of power on >> takeoff with extremely high CHT's. I built a mixture >> gage into my exhaust header, and it indicated a very >> lean mixture. I have no idea what caused it, but I >> ended up with a burned valve, two blown head gaskets, >> and indications of detonation. I the heads have been >> rebuilt, and I am just waiting to get back home in >> March to get the engine put back together. I found a >> good, used, MA3 carburetor for $300, and will be >> installing that when I return. >> >> I bought the Aerocarb to save money originally, >> and it appears that it may have cost me more money, >> and some severe injuries. I almost did not make it >> back to the runway when my engine lost power. I ended >> up finding a certified carburetor for less. With a >> little digging around, and possibly a little extra >> money, you can find certified carburetors. I would >> recommend them to anyone - simply because it takes the >> guess work out of test flying an aircraft. 99% of the >> time, they are good to go, straight out of the box. >> There is no price on piece of mind when climbing out >> on your first test flights. I learned that the hard >> way. Please feel free to post this on the net, if you >> feel it is worth the space... >> >> VR/ >> >> Brandon Tucker >> 601 HDS / TD / Corvair >> 125 hours >> >> >> >> >> --- Bill Naumuk wrote: >> >>> Brandon- >>> Are you happy with the AeroVee carb? After >>> talking to the people at the Brampford, Ont. fly-in, >>> I swapped my big tank for an 8 gal header and plan >>> on using locker tanks so I can use the AeroVee. >>> Not too many HDS builders these days! >>> Bill Naumuk >>> HDS Fuse/Corvair >>> Townville, Pa >> >> >> >> >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? >> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:34 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Jeff, would you please describe the fuel lines routing you mentioned? Would you have a picture or diagram to share? Thanks in advance Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada On 16/12/2007, Jeff wrote: > > > Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of > questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the > firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE > tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified > 601. > > > Jeff Davidson > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. From: "Tom Lyon" Have you looked at the new Verner engines with a redrive? Similar to the HKS, made in Czec Republic, a little more HP than the HKS. I hear they are supposed to be a much better setup than the older belt reduction models. Tom -------- Share your flying and buildng videos. Log on to the-vlogger.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152521#152521 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Is check valve in fuel return line needed? From: "Martin Pohl" Hi folks Is there a need for a check valve in the fuel return line (vapour lock return line)? Engine will be the Rotax 912ULS. Cheers Martin -------- Martin Pohl Zodiac XL QBK 8645 Jona, Switzerland www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152523#152523 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) From: "PatrickW" Iberplanes wrote: > anybody know if it is possible to order this gas struts direct from Zenith when ordering the canopy? I am considering ordering the canopy kit from Zenith - minus the gas struts and the bubble, as it appears that there are superior substitutions available for both. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152524#152524 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:15 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide Do you have a cabin heat system? Where is the air for that system coming from? Some of the earlier Jabiru exhaust system had problems with cracking welds. Check your exhaust system for leaks, make sure your cabin heat system is not ingesting contaminated air. BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: > > to all > i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast > > please help, > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:27 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide I am somewhat conflicted. I have a WW Corvair engine in my 601XL. Both exhaust pipes exit below and behind the lower part of the cowling. I have a heat muff on the left pipe for cabin heat. I have it connected with scat to a firewall mounted flapper control box. The box has no provision for dumping waste air. The heat muff has an open flange to let air in. I don't have it connected to a NACA inlet at present. My thinking is that there will be enough air through the baffled engine cooling fins, and there will be enough pressure to supply cabin heat air. I know that this arrangement would allow exhaust fumes into the cabin in the event of a cracked exhaust pipe. However, the WW exhaust pipes are are so simple that they are not likely to crack. Or are they? Should I go with the NACA intake and make provisions to dump waste air when the cabin heat valve is closed? Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J Bryan Martin wrote: > >Do you have a cabin heat system? Where is the air for that system coming >from? Some of the earlier Jabiru exhaust system had problems with >cracking welds. Check your exhaust system for leaks, make sure your >cabin heat system is not ingesting contaminated air. > >BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >> >> to all >> i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast >> >> please help, >> > >-- >Bryan Martin >Zenith 601XL N61BM >Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive >Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:09 AM PST US From: "Scott Thatcher" Subject: Zenith-List: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! It's been a grueling last few weeks in trying to get ready for the DAR Dec 15th inspection of N601EL but it's finished and so am I, just about! I want to thank everyone who has helped me find parts, provide drawings, send photos, help out at the hangar, lend support and in general for being there. It really does take a lot of collaboration to finish one of these things and after four years, I am extremely happy about having the pink slip for this aircraft! Thanks again! Scott Thatcher GraphiTech Computer Systems http://www.graphitech.com 800-634-8324 Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, still 99%complete but with E-LSA certification N601EL ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:01 AM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Is check valve in fuel return line needed? Martin-- I did not use a check valve on my return line. There is a restricter in the return line with about a .3mm hole in it so there is not much fuel tha t flows through the line. The engine end of the line is also significantly higher that the termination at the tank. I think when I did my fuel flow t ests with just the electrical pump on the fuel returned through this line w as about 13 ounces George May 601XL 912s 174hours> Subject: Zenith-List: Is check valve in fuel return li ne needed?> From: mpohl@pohltec.ch> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:21:42 -0800> Pohl" > > Hi folks> > Is there a need for a check valve in the fuel return line (vapour lock return line)? Engine will be the Rotax 912ULS.> > Cheers Martin> > --------> Martin Pohl> Zodiac XL QBK> 8645 Jon a, Switzerland> www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL> > > > > Read this topic online her e:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152523#152523> > > > > ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_1220 07 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:19 AM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I can't remember if I got my fishing license... Paul 321PT Please do not archive this. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:31 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide Jay, Your set up is time tested in countless small A/C dating back to the 40's, and exactly what WW promotes. Inspections should include opening the heat muff and visually inspecting the exhaust pipe. Maybe you would add a simple cockpit sensor for piece of mind. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide I am somewhat conflicted. I have a WW Corvair engine in my 601XL. Both exhaust pipes exit below and behind the lower part of the cowling. I have a heat muff on the left pipe for cabin heat. I have it connected with scat to a firewall mounted flapper control box. The box has no provision for dumping waste air. The heat muff has an open flange to let air in. I don't have it connected to a NACA inlet at present. My thinking is that there will be enough air through the baffled engine cooling fins, and there will be enough pressure to supply cabin heat air. I know that this arrangement would allow exhaust fumes into the cabin in the event of a cracked exhaust pipe. However, the WW exhaust pipes are are so simple that they are not likely to crack. Or are they? Should I go with the NACA intake and make provisions to dump waste air when the cabin heat valve is closed? Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J Bryan Martin wrote: > >Do you have a cabin heat system? Where is the air for that system coming >from? Some of the earlier Jabiru exhaust system had problems with >cracking welds. Check your exhaust system for leaks, make sure your >cabin heat system is not ingesting contaminated air. > >BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >> >> to all >> i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast >> >> please help, >> > >-- >Bryan Martin >Zenith 601XL N61BM >Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive >Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:46 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Congratulations Scott. What a unique Christmas present to receive, and a few days early at that! We look forward to hearing about the test flights. Dred ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:50 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Patrick, If possible when you order your struts, order them direct from the distributor where Zenith gets them. They will be a lot cheaper and the same thing. If ordered from zenith, they cost more and you will also be charged for shipping from the distributor to Zenith and again from Zenith to you. The distributing Company name is McMaster-Carr, their web site: http//www.McMaster.com/, the 60# Gas Strut (Spring) stock number is 9416K123, and the cost per strut is $9.88 each plus shipping. My shipping for two was $5.00, yours may be more or less. The 40# strut furnished by Zenith with the Zodiac601XL kit canopy is way too weak for the application. Good luck with your building. Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) > > > Iberplanes wrote: >> anybody know if it is possible to order this gas struts direct from Zenith when ordering the canopy? > > I am considering ordering the canopy kit from Zenith - minus the gas struts and the bubble, as it appears that there are superior substitutions available for both. > > Patrick > XL/Corvair > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152524#152524 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:46 PM PST US From: "Dale Medendorp" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. Check out www.ulpower.com. This looks like a great design. The downside is (again) cost. It's expected to cost as much as a Rotax 912. Dale ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide From: "Tim Juhl" My champ (built in 1946) uses a similar system with the exception that one side of the muff is connected to a flange on the front baffle just inside the cowling intakes. This ram air provides a little more pressure to push the air thru the heat muff into the cabin. The box on the firewall does have an opening to dump the waste air when cabin heat is not desired. The Champ's cabin has a lot of air leaks so the heat isn't too effective. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152561#152561 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:30 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Yes - In Chip Erwin's factory. ZAC and Erwin ended their relationship a while back, but the Chechoslovakia plans were available over the internet. I short, they run the fuel lines to the fuel selector on the console, then down aluminum tube to the firewall and through to the gascolator on the lower right corner of the firewall on the engine side of the firewall. The gascolator ends up in the same place as it is on my club 172M. The first certificate 601 in the US was a Check built plane with a 912S. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide I think he is referring to 601's as built in Czechoslovakia. Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152514#152514 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:48 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I walked into the NAPA auto parts store and on the wall wer "Dozens" of gas struts. Used on cars for trunk lids etc, they hadall kinds of lengths and sizes.... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Patrick, If possible when you order your struts, order them direct from the distributor where Zenith gets them. They will be a lot cheaper and the same thing. If ordered from zenith, they cost more and you will also be charged for shipping from the distributor to Zenith and again from Zenith to you. The distributing Company name is McMaster-Carr, their web site: http//www.McMaster.com/, the 60# Gas Strut (Spring) stock number is 9416K123, and the cost per strut is $9.88 each plus shipping. My shipping for two was $5.00, yours may be more or less. The 40# strut furnished by Zenith with the Zodiac601XL kit canopy is way too weak for the application. Good luck with your building. Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) > > > Iberplanes wrote: >> anybody know if it is possible to order this gas struts direct from Zenith when ordering the canopy? > > I am considering ordering the canopy kit from Zenith - minus the gas struts and the bubble, as it appears that there are superior substitutions available for both. > > Patrick > XL/Corvair > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152524#152524 > > > > > > > > ========== > Support Your Lists This Month -- > Get Some the Annual Contribution link Terrific Free Contribution Web href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution > Zenith-List Un/Subscription, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > ========== > bsp; via the href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! From: "Ron Lendon" Scott, Congratulations, now the fun really begins. Fly safe, and Merry Christmas. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152564#152564 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building on a budget - alternative engines for the 701. From: "jetboy" Randy, While youre waiting to decide the engine why not get on with the airframe. The scenery keeps changing with engine setups and that decision only needs finalizing before you do the mounts and cowl. I will add comment on the engines I personally know of in the 701. 1/The HKS never performed enough on the ground to risk flight. It was replaced with a Corvair which climbed tremendously well but the aircraft could not travel anywhere for long other than solo (load and endurance limited) It has been replaced with a Jabiru 2200 which goes just as fast, climbs half as good, but can carry full load the full distance. 2/The BMW 2 cyl. motor didnt work very well and has been replaced by a Rotax 532. This aircraft performs similar to my own 1100 lbs J2200 powered plane, but it is the earlier 960 lbs model. 3/VW air cooled with redrive performed well however overheated requiring rebuild in first 40 hrs. Cooling issues are likely to be fixable, as the cowl was an adapted one not setup for air cooling. 4/912 / 912S these seem to be the engine of choice, cost permitting, although the 912S with the tray mounting is not as smooth and cracks occur to the H stab attachments on models that dont have the updates. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152569#152569 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! From: "rroberts" CONGRATS and BE Careful ! ! -------- Low & Slow Rick www.n701rr.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152570#152570 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:35 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Carlos, Attached is a picture that shows the aluminum fuel line going from the Andair selector valve running to the firewall and down to a AN bulkhead fitting on the lower right. The Gascolator is on the other side of the bulkhead fitting. The standard ZAC quarter inch inside diameter synthetic rubber fuel lines come from each leading edge fuel tank through a filter and Facet pump next to the tanks to the selector valve. Fuel pressure sensor, 3300 mechanical pump, and final filter are in front of the firewall. Jeff Jeff, would you please describe the fuel lines routing you mentioned? Would you have a picture or diagram to share? Thanks in advance Carlos On 16/12/2007, Jeff wrote: Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601. Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 and wing failiers From: "kmccune" My wife's cousin has just about finished building a Challenger. And would like to build a cross country airplane. I suggested the 601, but he has heard of the recent wing issues. Well I don't want to research it in detail, but my gut feeling is that there is a common thread between them. I may be wrong and I don't want to started a lengthly read. But, does any one happen to have the particulars? He was adamant that the 601 was not safe, I don't believe it is true, but what can I say? He is wanting a project and a faster plane at low cost, so a scratch built 601 right! Thanks Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152572#152572 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:00 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: carbon monoxide Just about everyone has a different idea on this topic. My thoughts are, I am comfortable with my rubber bellows packed full of ceramic wool. It takes 2400+ degrees f to degrade this material. I have seen several guys build some pretty nifty slider/shutters to seal up tho se pesky steering rod slots. If you get a fire hot enough to burn up my style of seal then it will weld up the slider/shutters till they won't o perate. On landing the steering rods are gonna move up and down and left and right, with those sliders/shutters rigid there is a good posibility you will lose control and crash. The zenith design is somewhat problema tic so each to their own when it comes to sealing up those slots. Rememb er, the steering rods are moving in two axis's, up and down and side to side. I hope to never test my design because there is two things that s care the crap out of me. One is burning to death in a plane or racecar a nd the other is suffacating while buried in an avalanche. As for you th oughts on the cowling, you are 100% correct, if the fire is that intense to start burning through the firewall and its thru connectors the cowli ng is going to be burning like Richard Pryor on crack running down the r oad. YMMV. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Terry Phillips wrote: I really like Larry's sandwich construct to close off the slots. However , I'm concerned that there will still not be an effective fire barrier. I haven't begun to design it yet, but I'm thinking combining Larry's san dwich with something like the eyeball fittings sold by Van's, Cat No. EY EBALL TTP-125 http://tinyurl.com/2t6rwd to provide a better seal. I haven't looked at heater valve supplied with my FWF kit. But I'm consi dering the stainless steel heater valve sold by epm.av: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html I also like their firewall penetration systems. Then, again, I wonder, does it make sense to work to really seal the fir e wall when the cowl is epoxy-fiberglass composite, and the only thing b etween me and a fire coming out of the cowl is a Plexiglass canopy? I re ally don't know. Any thoughts? Terry At 12:44 PM 12/15/2007 -0600, you wrote: Bobby, I put a sealed sandwich construct behind the slots that is held by two b olts. An O-ring grommet fits the steering rod and effectively seals th e opening. Not hard to make as an afterthought. Install should be the same. See li nk, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-bar rier.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-bar rier-2.gif Put a little silicone seal around the edge toward the firewall and allow the slider with grommet to move up, down and a small amount sideways an d you've got it. I'd also suggest you extend your exhaust pipe(s) to one side and or behi nd the firewall. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: to all i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated ab out 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder a nd i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darke r in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast please help, Bobby Paulk N131BP Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail (almost) finished; working on the w ings ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== =============== _____________________________________________________________ Click here if you're tired of your job and want to increase your salary. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s1hkKIgVqT9PzIOZYf GjUkGdcsft48Q6bfyYWfF0nb2bKVk/ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:26 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy seals I had trouble with the forward seals on the canopy. Just could not get the ones in the kit to work to my satisfaction. I looked at Spruce and Wicks for something better. I ended up a Lowes. Yes I go there a lot. I found a garage door seal that looked like it would work. I ended up trimming it slightly but I am really happy with the end result. Check out my website if you want to look. http://www.zodiacxl.com/Canopy%202.htm Getting close to moving to the hangar! Merry Christmas and Happy building. Matt www.zodiacxl.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:32 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 and wing failiers Hi Kevin, The short answer is: Maybe there is a problem and maybe not. I am aware of 4 different incidents with Zodiac XLs that involved structural failure and loss of life. One was a new Sport Pilot who decided to depart in IMC. One was a mid-air collision with a C-172 (I think). One was a plane that had just been reassembled after sale from one owner to another that came apart in the traffic pattern. The last one was one that came apart in mid-flight cruise after making some vibration noises and unusual engine sounds. Considering how many Zodiacs are flying around this is alarming but not enough to say it is a dangerous design. Yes, the XL is the newest member of the Zodiac family so it is not necessarily fair to group all the Zodiacs in this class. Still, there are many of us continuing to build and fly XLs and we are happy to do so. Yes, there is a nagging concern we all feel, but it isn't enough to stop many of us. I don't know how this accident record compares to other kit planes. It certainly is better than some factory built planes in the past (I am thinking of Yankees and Swifts, and all the V-tail Bonanzas that broke up in flight). There are many other designs and some might be better or just experience a little more good luck and a little less bad luck, Flying is a dangerous activity and when you do it in planes built by first time amateurs the danger is certainly increased. If you want a really safe hobby perhaps you should consider taking up knitting. Paul XL fuselage - installing engine At 02:42 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote: > >My wife's cousin has just about finished building a Challenger. And >would like to build a cross country airplane. I suggested the 601, >but he has heard of the recent wing issues. Well I don't want to >research it in detail, but my gut feeling is that there is a common >thread between them. I may be wrong and I don't want to started a >lengthly read. But, does any one happen to have the particulars? > >He was adamant that the 601 was not safe, I don't believe it is >true, but what can I say? He is wanting a project and a faster plane >at low cost, so a scratch built 601 right! > >Thanks > >Kevin > >------ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 and wing failiers From: "annken100" The issue of wing failures and the safety of the 601 design has been hashed out, debated, speculated on, and generally beaten to death in previous threads. A simple search of the archives will bring you up to speed. Not being a structural, mechanical, or aeronautical engineer, I can't say with any authority that the design is safe or unsafe. However, the few past wing failures appear to be a result of pilot error or ambiguous mechanical defects. No one knows for sure. The conclusion I draw is that the 601 is safe based on the ample number of planes that are flying that haven't had wing failures. Considering that most 601's are assembled by amateur airplane builders with out any quality control measures as would be expected in a manufacturing setting, it is not outside the realm of possibility that a few 601's may have been built to substandard levels and therefore turned out unsafe. The bottom line is that you either trust the designer and the design or you don't. I don't think it makes any sense to try and convince someone the plane is safe if they already have made up their minds that indeed it is not. Good Luck, Ken Pavlou 601 XL / Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152593#152593 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:14 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy seals nice job. you will have a seal problem though where you have the two hatch cover hinges. try putting an auto trim seal on the inside. high density foam trim from auito shop. works welll. when the hatch is shut the window trim just sits ahead of it. I tryed it and the plane is dry flying in florida rains. best bet thugh is turn hinge completely around so they sit flush. They open just fine that way as well. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Matt & Jo >Sent: Dec 16, 2007 7:36 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy seals > > >I had trouble with the forward seals on the canopy. Just could not get the >ones in the kit to work to my satisfaction. I looked at Spruce and Wicks >for something better. I ended up a Lowes. Yes I go there a lot. I found a >garage door seal that looked like it would work. I ended up trimming it >slightly but I am really happy with the end result. > >Check out my website if you want to look. > >http://www.zodiacxl.com/Canopy%202.htm > >Getting close to moving to the hangar! > >Merry Christmas and Happy building. > >Matt >www.zodiacxl.com > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:28 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide a simple idea is to follow the plans. The design for where the gascolator is popular on aircraft in europe,keeps gas from vapor locking, works good. I believe some AMD aircraft had an AD on gascoloator placement. stick to the plans. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff >Sent: Dec 16, 2007 10:46 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > >do not archive > > > >Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of >questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the >firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE >tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified >601. > > > >Jeff Davidson > > > > _____ > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:05 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first >disapointment in the design. I aint never going to have a source of a gas >leak in my cabin area. I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my >gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall... > >SW > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Craig Payne > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:05 AM > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking >through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice >hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the >gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. > > > >-- Craig > > > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >Unternaehrer >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be >talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin >vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, >especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the >cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any >firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Tim Juhl > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM > >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > > >Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. > >The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the >exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the >exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the >engine compartment. > >Tim > >-------- >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 > > >Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; >Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== > >bsp; via the Web >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >========== > > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List >http://forums.matronics.com > > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref >"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http >://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:14 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Canopy For the life of me I cant figure out how to:::: Find where to drill the aluminum trim on the front of the canopy. I ve drilled the plastic canopy itself and went on thru to the aluminum tube frame. Thats easy. Now I want to install the aluminum sheet that covers the front of the tube/plastic. Hope I m making scense..... SW ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:28 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide Juan, You need to remember that there were no fuel system plans for the HD other than the single header tank. My ATP wife nixed that idea right off despite having hundreds of hours of Cub time. Even after the HD Leading Edge fuel tank option was developed, and I bought the kit from ZAC, there was no published design. So I drew it up and got Chris Heintz to review my plan by via snail mail. There are a lot of posts in the archives about fuel systems from that time frame. Jeff Davidson -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Juan Vega Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 9:05 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide a simple idea is to follow the plans. The design for where the gascolator is popular on aircraft in europe,keeps gas from vapor locking, works good. I believe some AMD aircraft had an AD on gascoloator placement. stick to the plans. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff >Sent: Dec 16, 2007 10:46 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > >do not archive > > > >Yes indeed. The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of >questions. I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the >firewall too. I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE >tanks to the gascolator. This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified >601. > > > >Jeff Davidson > > > > _____ > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:05 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first >disapointment in the design. I aint never going to have a source of a gas >leak in my cabin area. I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my >gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall... > >SW > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Craig Payne > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:05 AM > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >Of course if you place the gascolator where the plans call for it (poking >through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice >hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the >gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up. > > > >-- Craig > > > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >Unternaehrer >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > >There has been a lot of discussion on this thread. What doesn't seem to be >talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin >vs the upper engine high pressure area. Sealing the firewall is important, >especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the >cowl area is also important and mentioned below. Don't depend on any >firewall seal in the long run. Bob U. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Tim Juhl > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM > >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbon monoxide > > > > >Do you have a cabin heat system? If yes, it should be checked out as well. > >The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the >exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the >exhaust away. Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the >engine compartment. > >Tim > >-------- >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472 > > >Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; >Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== > >bsp; via the Web >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >========== > > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List >http://forums.matronics.com > > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref >"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="htt p >://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:16 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 and wing failiers I'm aware of three in-flight failures with 601 XLs. One was a homebuilt recently bought by a new owner and reassembled for a test flight. Speculation is that the rear wing spar bolts weren't installed properly. The post crash fire destroyed most of the fuselage so the NTSB report was inconclusive as the the cause of the failure. The second involved a non-instrument rated pilot taking off in marginal weather that rapidly deteriorated into IMC. There were reports of thunderstorms in the area at the time of the crash. Speculation is that the pilot either encountered severe turbulence or became disoriented and lost control and overstressed the airplane. The third crash involved a factory built S-LSA that apparently suffered an in-flight explosion. Some kind of fuel or engine problems had been reported on previous flights. kmccune wrote: > > My wife's cousin has just about finished building a Challenger. And would like to build a cross country airplane. I suggested the 601, but he has heard of the recent wing issues. Well I don't want to research it in detail, but my gut feeling is that there is a common thread between them. I may be wrong and I don't want to started a lengthly read. But, does any one happen to have the particulars? > > He was adamant that the 601 was not safe, I don't believe it is true, but what can I say? He is wanting a project and a faster plane at low cost, so a scratch built 601 right! > > Thanks > > Kevin > > -------- > Kevin -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 and wing failiers From: "Canatukker" [Laughing] I trust the wings of my 601 but helped with some insurance [Laughing] -------- Have fun fly save Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152643#152643 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0025_173.jpg ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 and wing failiers From: "annken100" > I trust the wings of my 601 but helped with some insurance [Shocked] Funny! Is that modification patented? What thickness duct tape did you use? Have you run it by Zenith yet? Ken Pavlou 601 XL / Corvair[/quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152645#152645 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 and wing failiers From: "Canatukker" 8) don't know how thick ,is already patented Scotch All-Weather Duct Tape Apollo 13 astronauts used it for repairs and the Apollo 17 astronauts to keep dust off the lunar rovers fenders; it is now policy to have a roll on every space shuttle mission [Idea] Ron in a can't fly to rainy Mission B.C. good o'l Canada do not archive [Crying or Very sad] -------- Have fun fly save Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152646#152646 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.