Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:35 AM - flutter (Scott Thatcher)
2. 05:57 AM - Re: 601 and wing failiers (Dave Nixon)
3. 06:19 AM - 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Scott Thatcher)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 601HD/HDS Tires (John M. Goodings)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Art Olechowski)
6. 07:34 AM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (LarryMcFarland)
7. 09:16 AM - Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (Gig Giacona)
8. 09:24 AM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Jaybannist@cs.com)
9. 10:06 AM - Rudder Pedals (Bill Naumuk)
10. 10:39 AM - Hinged Ailerons plans (ashontz)
11. 11:09 AM - AMD & BRS (Iberplanes IGL)
12. 01:08 PM - Re: Hinged Ailerons plans (Carlos Sa)
13. 01:56 PM - Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul (Bryan Ekholm)
14. 02:07 PM - Re: AMD & BRS (Ronald Steele)
15. 02:09 PM - Re: Hinged Ailerons plans (ashontz)
16. 02:09 PM - Re: Rudder Pedals (LarryMcFarland)
17. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul (Aaron Gustafson)
18. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Hinged Ailerons plans (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
19. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Hinged Ailerons plans (Clyde Barcus)
20. 03:30 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (David Downey)
21. 03:34 PM - Fw: 601Wing Failures/Flutter (Carl)
22. 03:50 PM - Re: AMD & BRS (Iberplanes)
23. 04:08 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Bob Unternaehrer)
24. 04:12 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Bob Unternaehrer)
25. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: AMD & BRS (Ronald Steele)
26. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (Bob Unternaehrer)
27. 05:10 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (LarryMcFarland)
28. 05:23 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (LarryMcFarland)
29. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Les Goldner)
30. 06:37 PM - 54 inch sheet metal brake (kmccune)
31. 06:39 PM - Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul (kmccune)
32. 06:42 PM - Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (kmccune)
33. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (n801bh@netzero.com)
34. 06:57 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Southern Reflections)
35. 07:38 PM - Three view (Jaybannist@cs.com)
Message 1
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You can order the lockers and not install them.
I'm not sure but I believe one of the listers had flutter of his wings
and he did not have the wing lockers. I think I'll do a bit more
research on this subject and try to inform the list of the findings... I
have heard of another 601 that experienced flutter two days ago and made
a very quick landing after recovering.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 and wing failiers |
Personally, I think all this talk about wing lockers causing or will cause a failure
is a lot of garbage. As stated previously, when the wing locker is cut
in, it is truly beefed up with a very rigid rear locker panel (6-WLO-1(2). That
coupled with good construction practices (which should be employed during the
whole process) will insure that every reasonable doubt should be erased.
I, also, would like to see some empirical data that shows that the wing locker
has caused a structural failure. From what I have been able to determine on the
NTSB reports, other than Stupid Pilot Tricks, the CH601XL is very reliable
aircraft. Unfortunately Paralysis By Analysis is a trait that we all endure at
one time or another. It is builder thing.
But don't let your imaginations find things that aren't there. Should you be concerned?
Absolutely! So overcome it with good construction practices and some
good old Common Sense. There is long way to go and many more decisions are going
to be made before your beauty flies. And some of these seem pretty extreme
at the time but for the life of me, without looking at my notes, I can't even
remember them anymore. That's how insignificant they are now in the total build
scheme of things.
Let's enjoy the process and be safe out there. Common Sense should prevail.
Dave Nixon
CH601XL Jabiru 3300
93% Done 75% To Go
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153647#153647
Message 3
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| Subject: | 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these wing
failures, I feel I personally need to get additional data in order to make
an informed decision as to how to correct the problem, if there is one.
Here is my take on what we know so far. I would also like to get additional
information from others based on the questions I have listed below.
1. The wing failures do not appear to be failing under flight loads. All
static tests indicate that the wings are structurally sound.
2. I have spoken to two people who have experienced "wing flutter" and lived
to tell about it (one directly and one second hand report). This condition
appears without notice and can cause catastophic wing failure in a few
seconds. The first one was in Georgia and the second one occured just a few
days ago in Lantana, FL (so far unreported).
The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
information on this type of "potential" failure.
The following are questions I would like those who have experienced flutter
to provide.
1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
2. Do you have wing lockers?
3. Were you using flaps?
4. Were you making left or right turns?
5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
8. How did you recover from the flutter?
9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
10. What make of engine were you using?
11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
engine)?
12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after
construction?
14. Any other information you feel is important.
Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to the
list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
forum.
Thanks for your input,
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 601HD/HDS Tires |
Carlos Sa:
Personally, I would NOT install tires of smaller diameter than 8.0". The
reason is propeller ground clearance. If you intend sometimes to fly off
grass, you need all the prop clearance you can get; when you taxi on rough
ground, the nose bounces a bit, and in low spots, the prop clearance with,
say, a 68" prop (ours is a GSC wooden prop on a Rotax 912S), is minimal.
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa, Toronto/Waterloo.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
Les,
Great to here another 701 will be taking the skies soon. Keep us posted on the
first flight and
stay safe.
Art
--- Les Goldner <lgold@quantum-associates.com> wrote:
> My 701 was given an airworthiness certificate yesterday. It's ready to fly,
> but still needs some paint and a few add-ons.
>
> It took me about a year and a half working 4 or 5-hours per day, or about
> 1500 hours to build it. I guess you could build one in the advertised 500
> hours if you are really really fast and already built a few other 701s to
> get your speed up, but I couldn't do it. Each additional item I added (like
> a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access doors, much lighter mailbox
> type door locks, and an internal BRS chute) took me an extra week or two of
> work. The chute put an extra 40# behind the baggage compartment but the CG
> and empty weight still looks OK. Why a chute? A trip in a 2-seat ultralight
> from San Francisco to the Grand Canyon and back early this year convinced me
> of the need to be able to make a "soft" emergency landing in places where it
> would not be possible without a chute. I would not have taken this
> spectacular flight without a chute.
>
> I placed a picture of N67MG below, but don't know if Matronics will allow it
> to be posted.
>
> Regards,
>
> Les Goldner
>
> 701 N67MG
> Petaluma, Ca
>
>
>
> <http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_20314034/187a/__sr_/4b8c.jpg?groW5aHBKNXz
> hYNv>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
Scott,
I think you're "running lemmings" here as most people wouldn't recognize
flutter if it happened to them. Flutter occurs when you have a plane at
excessively high speed and unbalanced control surfaces. One could
easily run into convective and think it was flutter or load the plane in
a dive pullout
and get flutter at the bottom when as wings were unloading, but flutter
within the published limits for the XL is highly unlikely.
I don't think just flying the XL normally will ever get you to that
point, otherwise you'd have lots of people reporting it and many more
fatalities.
Because the XL is a consistently good tested design, the rarity of these
accidents are more in line with pilot error and/or workmanship.
A solution to unbalanced control surfaces is to balance them, but Chris
Heintz has said "that was unnecessary as speeds were never that high".
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scott Thatcher wrote:
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>
> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these
> wing failures. I feel I personally need to get additional data in
> order to make an informed decision as to how to correct the problem,
> if there is one.
> The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
> anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
> information on this type of "potential" failure.
>
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric |
Airp
Yet another good reason to use the forum version. Just for the record here is what
I wrote ...
That less than $30k investment always gave me pause. Sonex isn't doing any cutting
edge research on less that $30k.
That electric plane was nothing but something to get folks to the booth.
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]Interesting! Everything after (and including)
the less-than sign does not show on the email version of the list...
Carlos
On 21/12/2007, Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> That
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR (http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153572#153572 [b]
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153669#153669
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
I think that you guys have a semantics problem. The "flutter" Larry is talking
about is a technical term, and it refers to the divergent and increasing amplitude
of control surface oscillations. The wing flutter earlier reported by a
poster is a "common" usage, probably more appropriately called "vibration" or
"oscillation"; and as I recall, referred to the whole wing, not just control
surfaces. Aerodynamic flutter may not be controllable and usually results in the
departure of the control surface or whatever it is attached to.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I think that usually goes without saying).
Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J
Do not archive
LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
>
>Scott,
>I think you're "running lemmings" here as most people wouldn't recognize
>flutter if it happened to them. Flutter occurs when you have a plane at
>excessively high speed and unbalanced control surfaces. One could
>easily run into convective and think it was flutter or load the plane in
>a dive pullout
>and get flutter at the bottom when as wings were unloading, but flutter
>within the published limits for the XL is highly unlikely.
>
>I don't think just flying the XL normally will ever get you to that
>point, otherwise you'd have lots of people reporting it and many more
>fatalities.
>Because the XL is a consistently good tested design, the rarity of these
>accidents are more in line with pilot error and/or workmanship.
>A solution to unbalanced control surfaces is to balance them, but Chris
>Heintz has said "that was unnecessary as speeds were never that high".
>
>Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>Scott Thatcher wrote:
>> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these
>> wing failures. I feel I personally need to get additional data in
>> order to make an informed decision as to how to correct the problem,
>> if there is one.
>> The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
>> anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
>> information on this type of "potential" failure.
>>
>>
>> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
>> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
>> N601EL
>>
>
>
Message 9
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All-
Wondering what size person the plans location for the rudder pedals
(6mm forward of kick plate) was calculated for. I'm 5'-10". Don't really
want to climb into the fuse to find out for fear of throwing the
alignment out of whack.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 10
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| Subject: | Hinged Ailerons plans |
Where do I find the design changes for the hinged ailerons. I just went out in
the garage to finally start building again and traced out some form templates
and looked at the plans and realized the hingeless ailerons dimensions are going
to work with the hinge.
Thanks
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153679#153679
Message 11
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Hi there,
Is there a way to find the original installation plans for the BRS installed
on the AMD Version of the 601 XL ?
Thanks in advance,
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged Ailerons plans |
My plans (-HD) show the mod on the same page as the hingeless ailerons...
Carlos
On 22/12/2007, ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
>
>
> Where do I find the design changes for the hinged ailerons. I just went
> out in the garage to finally start building again and traced out some form
> templates and looked at the plans and realized the hingeless ailerons
> dimensions are going to work with the hinge.
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul |
When I bought .016 sheet 6061T6 from Erickson Metals I paid about $54 a sheet about
five years ago. $233 sounds extremely high. They must have misquoted somehow.
You may want to try Discount Steel in Minneapolis. They may not have
the thinner sheets is stock but could probably order it for you.
Bryan Ekholm
--------
Bryan Ekholm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153705#153705
Message 14
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I don't think AMD has ever put a BRS in one of their planes. The
only installations I've run across have been developed by home-
builders, including the one on the BRS web site. It's not a very
pretty installation.
Ron
On Dec 22, 2007, at 1:56 PM, Iberplanes IGL wrote:
> <iberplanes@gmail.com>
>
> Hi there,
>
> Is there a way to find the original installation plans for the BRS
> installed on the AMD Version of the 601 XL ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged Ailerons plans |
Mine don't. Do you have to pay for plans updates? If that's so that a bunch of
crap. I haven't gotten any updates yet.
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]My plans (-HD) show the mod on the same page as
the hingeless ailerons...
Carlos
On 22/12/2007, ashontz wrote:
>
> Where do I find the design changes for the hinged ailerons. I just went out in
the garage to finally start building again and traced out some form templates
and looked at the plans and realized the hingeless ailerons dimensions are going
to work with the hinge.
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153709#153709
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedals |
Bill,
I'm 6'-1", 197 lbs and long in the torso, but the pedals are a good fit
just per plans. A lot depends on how you define the seats as well. I
have seat backs that should have been 1-inch deep instead of 2-inches.
Otherwise, the seat-foam's compression puts me just 4 inches below the
main spar and it's a great fit for the pedals, steering or braking.
I have sat in some Zodiacs that left my legs dangling over the spar so
to speak for lack of seat support.
see link,
www.macsmachine.com/html/seatupholstery.htm
Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
Bill Naumuk wrote:
> All-
> Wondering what size person the plans location for the rudder
> pedals (6mm forward of kick plate) was calculated for. I'm 5'-10".
> Don't really want to climb into the fuse to find out for fear of
> throwing the alignment out of whack.
> Bill Naumuk
> HDS Fuse/Corvair
> Townville, Pa
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul |
I have found that metal from non aircraft suppliers is not well taken care
of and may be scratched or stained from water. I settled in to buying only
from Wicks or ACS. It comes 4 sheets to a box and UPS. The price is the
going rate.
Aaron G
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged Ailerons plans |
The only difference is they bend the rear angle the other direction and add
the hinge.
In a message dated 12/22/2007 5:10:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashontz@nbme.org writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Mine don't. Do you have to pay for plans updates? If that's so that a bunch
of crap. I haven't gotten any updates yet.
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]My plans (-HD) show the mod on the same
page as the hingeless ailerons...
Carlos
On 22/12/2007, ashontz wrote:
>
> Where do I find the design changes for the hinged ailerons. I just went
out in the garage to finally start building again and traced out some form
templates and looked at the plans and realized the hingeless ailerons dimensions
are going to work with the hinge.
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153709#153709
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged Ailerons plans |
My kit came with the hingeless ailerons and I decided to change it. I cut
20mm off the 40mm hingeless flange, added .025 L with the hinge sandwiched
between the .025 L and the flange on top. I discussed this with Chris Heinz
before making the change and he said it is good, no problem at all. If you
look at the hingless versus the hinge type you will notice the bend in the
bottom flange is opposite, that is why I added the .025 L below the top
flange. It took less than an hour to change it over.
Clyde Barcus
601 XL, Continental Powered
Wings, Tail & Engine Complete
Working on Fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:08 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged Ailerons plans
>
> Mine don't. Do you have to pay for plans updates? If that's so that a
> bunch of crap. I haven't gotten any updates yet.
>
> [quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]My plans (-HD) show the mod on the same
> page as the hingeless ailerons...
>
> Carlos
>
> On 22/12/2007, ashontz wrote:
>>
>> Where do I find the design changes for the hinged ailerons. I just went
>> out in the garage to finally start building again and traced out some
>> form templates and looked at the plans and realized the hingeless
>> ailerons dimensions are going to work with the hinge.
>> [b]
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153709#153709
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
very precisely accurate descriptions Jay. Have a very blessed Christmas.
do not archive
I think that you guys have a semantics problem. The "flutter" Larry is talking
about is a technical term, and it refers to the divergent and increasing amplitude
of control surface oscillations. The wing flutter earlier reported by a
poster is a "common" usage, probably more appropriately called "vibration" or
"oscillation"; and as I recall, referred to the whole wing, not just control
surfaces. Aerodynamic flutter may not be controllable and usually results in the
departure of the control surface or whatever it is attached to.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I think that usually goes without saying).
Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J
Do not archive
LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>Scott,
>I think you're "running lemmings" here as most people wouldn't recognize
>flutter if it happened to them. Flutter occurs when you have a plane at
>excessively high speed and unbalanced control surfaces. One could
>easily run into convective and think it was flutter or load the plane in
>a dive pullout
>and get flutter at the bottom when as wings were unloading, but flutter
>within the published limits for the XL is highly unlikely.
>
>I don't think just flying the XL normally will ever get you to that
>point, otherwise you'd have lots of people reporting it and many more
>fatalities.
>Because the XL is a consistently good tested design, the rarity of these
>accidents are more in line with pilot error and/or workmanship.
>A solution to unbalanced control surfaces is to balance them, but Chris
>Heintz has said "that was unnecessary as speeds were never that high".
>
>Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>Scott Thatcher wrote:
>>
>>
>> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these
>> wing failures. I feel I personally need to get additional data in
>> order to make an informed decision as to how to correct the problem,
>> if there is one.
>> The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
>> anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
>> information on this type of "potential" failure.
>>
>>
>> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
>> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
>> N601EL
>>
>
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 21
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| Subject: | 601Wing Failures/Flutter |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures/Flutter
>I am no expert on flutter but I have a healthy respect for its known
>consequences. In 56 years of flying I have only experienced flutter in one
>aircraft. Anyone who has flown T-33s will have had flutter demonstrated
>during training. The T Bird had a limiting Mach of .8 and just before you
>reached that speed the ailerons (Hydraulically boosted) would start to
>vibrate. You could feel it on the controls and see the trailing edge get
>blurred. Clearly this type of aileron flutter (Buzz) on the T-33 was benign
>because these birds accumulated 1000s of hours without mishaps if the
>limiting mach was respected.
> I would note however that flutter does not only occur at the top end of
> the speed spectrum. When I submitted my test plan to the Department of
> Transport for the new wings for my 701, I was advised that flutter can
> occur at any speed and to proceed with extreme caution, only increasing
> speed by 2-3 kn between tests. Since the 701's controls are not balanced
> and the elevator can have a fair bit of play I don't push Vne.
> A friend that had an Ultralite licence and an a/c with a Vne of 125 mph
> was experimenting with a more powerful engine. On one of his flights he
> reached a speed of 140 mph. While at that speed he related to me what
> happened. "There was a god awful noise and the control stick vibrated
> vigourusly. When I regained control the flaps were down but everything
> else seamed ok". There was no appearant damage to the a/c. I can't be sure
> what happened but I gave him all the information I know on flutter and
> told him he was the luckyest SOB I know.
> I find the discussion of the 601 XL wing interesting but I hope there will
> be more factual information available so those that are flying and
> building XL will have peace of mind.
> Merry Christmas and smooth lands in 2008.
> Carl
> 701/912/amphibs
Message 22
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Hi,
It is listed as an option, and...
Aircraft Manufacturing & Development Co. (AMD) has completed their first BRS (Ballistic
Recovery Systems) parachute installation in a Zodiac 601XL - SLSA. The
aircraft was certified on January 30th 2007 at the production facilities in
Eastman, Georgia
"Flying the Zodiac is super fun. Its excellent maneuverability and visibility are
great features. Pilots and passengers are always looking at increasing safety
features, and the BRS parachute provides that added security," stated John
Degonia, AMDs sales manager.
Take a look at: http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/news/BRS_ZODIAC_FEB_2007.htm
As said, if anyone can get or know the plans for such an installation It would
be kindly appreciated.
Take care,
--------
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153727#153727
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
<<<I think you're "running lemmings" here as most people wouldn't
recognize
flutter if it happened to them>>
A more accurate statement would be "most people don't live over a
control flutter incident. bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: LarryMcFarland
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective
<larry@macsmachine.com>
Scott,
I think you're "running lemmings" here as most people wouldn't
recognize
flutter if it happened to them. Flutter occurs when you have a plane
at
excessively high speed and unbalanced control surfaces. One could
easily run into convective and think it was flutter or load the plane
in
a dive pullout
and get flutter at the bottom when as wings were unloading, but
flutter
within the published limits for the XL is highly unlikely.
I don't think just flying the XL normally will ever get you to that
point, otherwise you'd have lots of people reporting it and many more
fatalities.
Because the XL is a consistently good tested design, the rarity of
these
accidents are more in line with pilot error and/or workmanship.
A solution to unbalanced control surfaces is to balance them, but
Chris
Heintz has said "that was unnecessary as speeds were never that high".
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scott Thatcher wrote:
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>
> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these
> wing failures. I feel I personally need to get additional data in
> order to make an informed decision as to how to correct the problem,
> if there is one.
> The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated
by
> anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
> information on this type of "potential" failure.
>
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
This seems to be being called "wing flutter". Is it wing flutter or
"aeleron flutter". Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Thatcher
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 8:18 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective
<s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these
wing
failures, I feel I personally need to get additional data in order to
make
an informed decision as to how to correct the problem, if there is
one.
Here is my take on what we know so far. I would also like to get
additional
information from others based on the questions I have listed below.
1. The wing failures do not appear to be failing under flight loads.
All
static tests indicate that the wings are structurally sound.
2. I have spoken to two people who have experienced "wing flutter" and
lived
to tell about it (one directly and one second hand report). This
condition
appears without notice and can cause catastophic wing failure in a few
seconds. The first one was in Georgia and the second one occured just
a few
days ago in Lantana, FL (so far unreported).
The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
information on this type of "potential" failure.
The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
flutter
to provide.
1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
2. Do you have wing lockers?
3. Were you using flaps?
4. Were you making left or right turns?
5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
8. How did you recover from the flutter?
9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
10. What make of engine were you using?
11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop
or
engine)?
12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or
after
construction?
14. Any other information you feel is important.
Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report
to the
list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
forum.
Thanks for your input,
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message 25
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First I'd seen this. I too would like to take a look at it. The
others I've seen just didn't look to practical. Have you checked the
BRS web site?
Ron
On Dec 22, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Iberplanes wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It is listed as an option, and...
>
> Aircraft Manufacturing & Development Co. (AMD) has completed their
> first BRS (Ballistic Recovery Systems) parachute installation in a
> Zodiac 601XL - SLSA. The aircraft was certified on January 30th
> 2007 at the production facilities in Eastman, Georgia
>
> "Flying the Zodiac is super fun. Its excellent maneuverability and
> visibility are great features. Pilots and passengers are always
> looking at increasing safety features, and the BRS parachute
> provides that added security," stated John Degonia, AMDs sales
> manager.
>
>
> Take a look at: http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/news/
> BRS_ZODIAC_FEB_2007.htm
>
> As said, if anyone can get or know the plans for such an
> installation It would be kindly appreciated.
>
> Take care,
>
> --------
> Alberto Martin
> 601 XL - Jabiru 3300
> www.iberplanes.es
> Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153727#153727
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric |
Airp
maybe there is lots of Gov't grants involved. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gig Giacona
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A
Practical Electric Airp
<wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
Yet another good reason to use the forum version. Just for the record
here is what I wrote ...
That less than $30k investment always gave me pause. Sonex isn't doing
any cutting edge research on less that $30k.
That electric plane was nothing but something to get folks to the
booth.
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]Interesting! Everything after (and
including) the less-than sign does not show on the email version of the
list...
Carlos
On 21/12/2007, Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> That
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
(http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153572#153572 [b]
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153669#153669
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
Bob,
For the concern over "wing failure", one has to know if there's enough
leveraged flexure in the wing and weight in an unbalanced aileron
to multiply the wings harmonic and damage the wing root structure.
Probably seen only at excessive speeds.
I'd call it aileron flutter because the corrective action is balancing
the control surface.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Bob Unternaehrer wrote:
> This seems to be being called "wing flutter". Is it wing flutter or
> "aeleron flutter". Bob U.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Scott Thatcher <mailto:s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 8:18 AM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective
>
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net <mailto:s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>>
>
> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for
> these wing
> failures,
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Hi guys,
I received my gas struts only two days after ordering. I bought the 40
lb force type and replaced the old ones today. I also took the old
springs and tried pushing each down
on a scale to see what the extended 1/2-inch force was after 4 years. I
got 28 lbs on one and 30 lbs on the other. The new springs are 40 lbs
right on the money and they
hold the canopy up without any difficulty. But for leakage over time, I
still feel the 40 lb type is the way to go.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
robert stone wrote:
> When you order the kit for the Zodiac601XL the 40# gas struts
> will be included. You might specifically request 60# struts when you
> order the kit however I don't know if Zenith Aircraft even stocks the
> stronger ones. I would order direct from the McMaster-Carr Company,
> Stock number for the 60# strut is 9416K123, the company web site is:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/
>
> Bob Stone
> Harker Heights, Tx
> ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
> *
>
> *
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
Kevin,
I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and send them out in
a week or two to those who request them.
I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky that Paul
Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N. California
during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden flight and show me how
to fly it. Within an hour and a half I was able to solo... Still need a lot
of practice since this plane flies very differently than my "old" Challenger
II UL.
The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I think I
a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low (below 40-MPH) on
final without applying power to slow the sink rate.
Regards and happy holiday,
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly
>
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access
> doors, much lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal
> BRS chute) I'd like to see pics of the plane and the above,
> if you can get the pics to work.
>
> --------
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | 54 inch sheet metal brake |
I found a 54 " brake on _bay @ $100 right now, but its pick up in Ohio only, ends
Dec 25th. And before you ask NO its not mine and I have no affiliation.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153754#153754
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum source in Minneapolis/ST Paul |
I had them recheck the quote and they stuck by it! Wicks ect is a pretty good price,
but the shipping adds a good percentage to the cost.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153755#153755
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
Thanks I'll be waiting. My buddy is almost done with a long wing Challenger, so
when my 701 flys it'll be a fun comparison.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153758#153758
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
I big congrats to you and what a nice christmas present... Remember thes
e 701/801 series planes are VERY aerodynamically dirty and will sink lik
e the titanic when you get too slow. safe flying...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Les Goldner" <lgold@quantum-associates.com> wrote:
es.com>
Kevin,
I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and send them ou
t in
a week or two to those who request them.
I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky that Paul
Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N. Californi
a
during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden flight and show me
how
to fly it. Within an hour and a half I was able to solo... Still need a
lot
of practice since this plane flies very differently than my "old" Challe
nger
II UL.
The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I thin
k I
a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low (below 40-MPH)
on
final without applying power to slow the sink rate.
Regards and happy holiday,
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly
>
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access
> doors, much lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal
> BRS chute) I'd like to see pics of the plane and the above,
> if you can get the pics to work.
>
> --------
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Become a Dental Assistant and earn up to $50/ hour. Click here.
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective |
Scott,was the plane in Lantana a AMD factory built, and are we talking about
high sspeed wing viberation? Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Thatcher" <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>
> Although I generally don't like to second guess the reason for these wing
> failures, I feel I personally need to get additional data in order to make
> an informed decision as to how to correct the problem, if there is one.
> Here is my take on what we know so far. I would also like to get
> additional information from others based on the questions I have listed
> below.
>
> 1. The wing failures do not appear to be failing under flight loads. All
> static tests indicate that the wings are structurally sound.
> 2. I have spoken to two people who have experienced "wing flutter" and
> lived to tell about it (one directly and one second hand report). This
> condition appears without notice and can cause catastophic wing failure in
> a few seconds. The first one was in Georgia and the second one occured
> just a few days ago in Lantana, FL (so far unreported).
>
> The conditions that cause this "flutter" have not been investigated by
> anyone that I know of. However I do feel that we need to get more
> information on this type of "potential" failure.
>
> The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
> flutter to provide.
>
> 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
> 2. Do you have wing lockers?
> 3. Were you using flaps?
> 4. Were you making left or right turns?
> 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
> 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
> 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
> 8. How did you recover from the flutter?
> 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
> 10. What make of engine were you using?
> 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
> engine)?
> 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
> 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after
> construction?
> 14. Any other information you feel is important.
>
> Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to
> the list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
> forum.
>
> Thanks for your input,
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
>
>
>
Message 35
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Corvair types'
Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner
and 66" Warp Drive prop.
Merry Christmas
Jay in Dallas
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