Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly (Craig Payne)
2. 03:19 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Clive Richards)
3. 05:07 AM - Re: William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly (kmccune)
4. 05:34 AM - Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Scott Thatcher)
5. 06:25 AM - Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (kmccune)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Robert N. Eli)
7. 07:03 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Edward Moody II)
8. 08:18 AM - Construction Manual (Wingrider)
9. 09:10 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections)
10. 09:39 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (robert stone)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (John Short)
12. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Juan Vega)
13. 10:25 AM - Fw: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters (Southern Reflections)
14. 10:39 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections)
15. 10:41 AM - CHRISTmas (dj45)
16. 11:20 AM - Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (T. Graziano)
17. 11:55 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Craig Payne)
18. 11:56 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (Edward Moody II)
19. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Edward Moody II)
20. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Art Olechowski)
21. 12:02 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch (Al Hays)
22. 12:03 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Edward Moody II)
23. 12:04 PM - Dave's Brake video (Bruno M.)
24. 12:05 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (LarryMcFarland)
25. 12:14 PM - Re: CHRISTmas (Edward Moody II)
26. 12:31 PM - Re: CHRISTmas (Craig Payne)
27. 12:45 PM - Re: Construction Manual (Jerry Latimer)
28. 12:50 PM - Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (Gig Giacona)
29. 12:52 PM - Re: Three view (Gig Giacona)
30. 12:53 PM - Re: Construction Manual (Craig Payne)
31. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: AMD & BRS (Iberplanes IGL)
32. 01:06 PM - Fw: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch (robert stone)
33. 01:07 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (robert stone)
34. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Andrew Ackland)
35. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Andrew Ackland)
36. 02:09 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Mack Kreizenbeck)
37. 02:12 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections)
38. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Jaybannist@cs.com)
39. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Jaybannist@cs.com)
40. 02:35 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Paul Mulwitz)
41. 02:51 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
42. 02:53 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
43. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Metric W & B (Craig Payne)
44. 03:47 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (kmccune)
45. 03:59 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - (Gig Giacona)
46. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failur... (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com)
47. 04:34 PM - Re: Construction Manual (n801bh@netzero.com)
48. 04:41 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (David Downey)
49. 04:51 PM - Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (PatrickW)
50. 04:52 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (David Downey)
51. 05:17 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Paul Mulwitz)
52. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (DRAGONFUEL@aol.com)
53. 06:33 PM - Aircraft Spruce Streamline Tubing (Joe Spencer)
54. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Les Goldner)
55. 10:06 PM - 601HD plans new 2006 unused ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly |
The FAA has signed it off and "Flying should start in a week or so". Look
about a third of the way down on this page:
www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html
-- Craig
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Larry
I think you are correct in using the lower pressure struts If canopy was
not latched correctly & opened in flight it may be impossible to reclose it
if gas struts are too strong. I beleive someone in UK had this problem & had
difficulity in maintaining level flight due to increased drag donot know
what struts he used. We have used adjustable struts & let the pressure out
(about 35lbs) so they just opened the canopy (of earlier design to XL) these
have also leaked over time & need replacing or topping up, they still hold
the canopy open after we lift it.
Merry Christmas
Clive
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
>
> Hi guys,
> I received my gas struts only two days after ordering. I bought the 40 lb
> force type and replaced the old ones today. I also took the old springs
> and tried pushing each down
> on a scale to see what the extended 1/2-inch force was after 4 years. I
> got 28 lbs on one and 30 lbs on the other. The new springs are 40 lbs
> right on the money and they
> hold the canopy up without any difficulty. But for leakage over time, I
> still feel the 40 lb type is the way to go.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> robert stone wrote:
>> When you order the kit for the Zodiac601XL the 40# gas struts will
>> be included. You might specifically request 60# struts when you order
>> the kit however I don't know if Zenith Aircraft even stocks the stronger
>> ones. I would order direct from the McMaster-Carr Company, Stock number
>> for the 60# strut is 9416K123, the company web site is:
>> http://www.mcmaster.com/
>>
>> Bob Stone
>> Harker Heights, Tx
>> ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
>> *
>>
>> *
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly |
I saw this, it looks good, I already have the pics saved for reference, just in
case ;^). I hope he publishes the weight and balance/performance info.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153795#153795
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to the
list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the correct
terminology when referring to flutter.
Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not
necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will fly
the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, assume
that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while flying at
even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of the wing is
such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in lift), the
wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently divergent
resulting in failure.
Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as
ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used
without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is
called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do
remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during
lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a
seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, "the
Pogo effect."
Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of divergent
vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to tell about it.
These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type vibrations. They
were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in severity.
In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in
amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did.
In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to
change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his
own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and
examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme
wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during pre-flight
but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any statement or
judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the participants.
In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but
rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to
assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it
would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative.
Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from
those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations of
their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. I
have added a 15th question.
The following are questions I would like those who have experienced flutter
to provide.
1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
2. Do you have wing lockers?
3. Were you using flaps?
4. Were you making left or right turns?
5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
8. How did you recover from the flutter?
9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
10. What make of engine were you using?
11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
engine)?
12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after
construction?
14. Any other information you feel is important.
15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or
Manufactured?
Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to the
list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message 5
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| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing |
Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the wing struts?
A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
Scott,
When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so ago, I
also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not the
control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing speed.
So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in the
archives.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Thatcher" <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>
> In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to
> the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the
> correct terminology when referring to flutter.
>
> Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not
> necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will
> fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter,
> assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while
> flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of
> the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in
> lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently
> divergent resulting in failure.
>
> Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as
> ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used
> without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is
> called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do
> remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during
> lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a
> seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather,
> "the Pogo effect."
>
> Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of
> divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to
> tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type
> vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in
> severity.
>
> In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in
> amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did.
> In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to
> change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his
> own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and
> examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme
> wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during
> pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any
> statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the
> participants.
>
> In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but
> rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to
> assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it
> would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative.
>
> Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from
> those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations
> of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with.
> I have added a 15th question.
>
> The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
> flutter
> to provide.
>
> 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
> 2. Do you have wing lockers?
> 3. Were you using flaps?
> 4. Were you making left or right turns?
> 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
> 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
> 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
> 8. How did you recover from the flutter?
> 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
> 10. What make of engine were you using?
> 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
> engine)?
> 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
> 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after
> construction?
> 14. Any other information you feel is important.
> 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or
> Manufactured?
>
> Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to
> the
> list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
> forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld.
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is
lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail
is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is
made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in
the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is
not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The
full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the
canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so
severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the
canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight
are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most
before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports
also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force)
effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small
amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident
will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut
pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a
part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut
strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam
down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
Message 8
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| Subject: | Construction Manual |
I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in PDF
format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me.
I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so I'm
not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let me search
for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop with me
so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition.
I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I could
get one for the XL that would be good too.
Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Dred,I bought the70# and they work great,they make the movement of the
canopy more solid and seems to remove alot of the left and right slop
at the rear of the canopy ,and my canopy is locking better than it ever
has,seems to open smoother with less effort there great.....
JoeN101HD601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is
lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail
is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is
made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in
the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is
not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The
full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the
canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so
severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the
canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight
are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most
before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports
also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force)
effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small
amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident
will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut
pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as
a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut
strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam
down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Ed,
What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely eliminated
the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by installing the
60# struts and the system works fine now.
I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the
Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I
built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems
with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have
had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you
and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish
pictures and an explanation upon request.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is
lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail
is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is
made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in
the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is
not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The
full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the
canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so
severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the
canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight
are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most
before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports
also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force)
effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small
amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident
will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut
pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as
a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut
strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam
down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing |
I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey.
Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount of drag
created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I think
there over $100 for like 6 ft.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:24 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing
>
> Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the
> wing struts? A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with.
>
> Kevin
>
> --------
> Kevin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
All
I wonder how many cases of "Flutter" are just the wings Oil canning. Flutter is
a pretty difficulty thing to see, its more feel.. Oil canning is pretty typical
on the 601 and is not a problem.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@comcast.net>
>Sent: Dec 23, 2007 9:22 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
>
>
>Scott,
>
>When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so ago, I
>also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not the
>control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing speed.
>So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in the
>archives.
>
>Bob Eli
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Thatcher" <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
>
>
>> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to
>> the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the
>> correct terminology when referring to flutter.
>>
>> Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not
>> necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will
>> fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter,
>> assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while
>> flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of
>> the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in
>> lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently
>> divergent resulting in failure.
>>
>> Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as
>> ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used
>> without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is
>> called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do
>> remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during
>> lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a
>> seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather,
>> "the Pogo effect."
>>
>> Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of
>> divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to
>> tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type
>> vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in
>> severity.
>>
>> In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in
>> amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did.
>> In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to
>> change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his
>> own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and
>> examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme
>> wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during
>> pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any
>> statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the
>> participants.
>>
>> In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but
>> rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to
>> assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it
>> would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative.
>>
>> Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from
>> those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations
>> of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with.
>> I have added a 15th question.
>>
>> The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
>> flutter
>> to provide.
>>
>> 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
>> 2. Do you have wing lockers?
>> 3. Were you using flaps?
>> 4. Were you making left or right turns?
>> 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
>> 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
>> 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
>> 8. How did you recover from the flutter?
>> 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
>> 10. What make of engine were you using?
>> 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
>> engine)?
>> 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
>> 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after
>> construction?
>> 14. Any other information you feel is important.
>> 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or
>> Manufactured?
>>
>> Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to
>> the
>> list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
>> forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld.
>>
>> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
>> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
>> N601EL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fw: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters |
----- Original Message -----
From: Millman Kathy B. (DNREC)
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:14 AM
Subject: FW: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters
do not archive
http://www.thecompassgroup.biz/merryxmas.swf
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am thinking
about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack to stop
real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks Joe
N101HD XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: robert stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
Ed,
What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the
Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I
built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems
with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have
had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you
and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish
pictures and an explanation upon request.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is
lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail
is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is
made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in
the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is
not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The
full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the
canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so
severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the
canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in
flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches
at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The
reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown
force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even
that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of
incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of
strut pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed
as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever
strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy
won't slam down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 15
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Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S.
--------
Do not archive
Dan Stanton
100% Done
801, IO360
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
The one case "matronics list" report of "wing flutter?" was in Jan this
yea in Georgia, and is as copied below. Was it flutter or just a really
bad ride in extremely man made turbulent conditions? If flutter, the
diving and picking up speed should have resulted in a really bad
outcome.In the other case, do not know the circumstances, but I always
pull up and down onmy flaps to make sure excessive play is not present
during pre-flight. I wonder if the "second" case the descending right
turn was made with flaps down - my XL will really pick up speed easily
sliding past max flap extension speed, even with full flaps if I let
it.During my Phase I testing, I took my XL, in gradual steps in calm
air, up to 195 mph IASwith no indications of any "buzz".The pogo effect
on the Saturn V, was I believe due to the spring effect of the long
missile body being pushed by the thrust of each those huge first stage
F-1 Engines burning, if I recall correctly, 15 tons/sec of kerosene plus
oxidizer.With all of the XLs flying, I do not believe we have any
flutter concerns IF the airplane is flown in its established envelope.
I have flown in some really bad natural turbulence with my XL, with no
problems - recommend you keep your seat belt tight, remove your headset
or hang on to it and fly Va max.Tony Graziano601XL/Jab3300; N493TG kit
built with wing lockers; 331 really enjoyable (even in "mild"
turbulence)flight hours
---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear
Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and
just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, clear,
cool
and only a slight wind. The only big thing around much to see nearby is
Lake
Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the middle. Three
huge steam
towers that look like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake
about
two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the
down
wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above 140 when
we
flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a fast pitch, aileron
and all
and it looked to be moving maybe two inched up and down. I figured a
couple
seconds would break it off. I didn't have time to look around the
passenger to
see if the right wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped
power and
did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound
was
great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably
last
maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the snap dive, maxing
above 170
and flew slow and easy back to the field before I tested the controls.
Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I
landed. Didn't
really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no
skin
deform, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all
inspection
panels for a close inspection this weekend and check bolts, controls,
etc., but
I cannot believe such a prolonged violent movement of the wing did not
damage
something other than my pride. Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere
near a
power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises
and is
most extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the
XL is
very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have been so
stupid
not to know the first thing !! I am interested though in knowing why
the
wings fluttered in this thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cause
this
extreme reaction? Was is just the level of heat and speed the invisible
air was
streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud
again.
Best regards to you all,
Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300-------------Subject: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
From: Scott Thatcher (s_thatcher@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Dec
23 - 5:34 AM In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent
contributors to the
list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the
correct
terminology when referring to flutter.
Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not
necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will
fly
the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter,
assume
that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while flying
at
even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of the wing
is
such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in lift), the
wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently divergent
resulting in failure.
Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such
as
ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used
without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing
is
called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do
remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during
lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a
seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather,
"the
Pogo effect."
Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of
divergent
vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to tell about
it.
These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type vibrations.
They
were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in severity.
In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in
amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it
did.
In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to
change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of
his
own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely
and
examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme
wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during
pre-flight
but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any statement
or
judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the
participants.
In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne
but
rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to
assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but
it
would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative.
Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from
those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations
of
their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. I
have added a 15th question.
The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
flutter
to provide.
1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
2. Do you have wing lockers?
3. Were you using flaps?
4. Were you making left or right turns?
5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
8. How did you recover from the flutter?
9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
10. What make of engine were you using?
11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or
engine)?
12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or
after
construction?
14. Any other information you feel is important.
15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or
Manufactured?
Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to
the
list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this
forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair,
Message 17
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| Subject: | Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all
in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream
pressure prevents further opening.
Actually I had a very different experience in a similar situation. I was flying
left-seat with my instructor in an Evector SportStar. This plane is very similar
to the 601XL: low-wing LSA with a forward hinged bubble canopy. One difference
Is that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind
the seats:
www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm
The canopy popped while we were in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was
well over a foot. While the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I
wrapped my arm around the cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could
not close the canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evector
redesigned the latch the next year.
I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the canopy
as it did not decrease as I closed the gap.
-- Craig
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing |
They look good and they are tremendously strong but they don't do a lot
for streamlining other than in terms of appearance. I have them on an
Excalibur ultralight and the plane still acts like a sheet of plywood
turned flat to the wind.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: John Short
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing
<creativesigns@embarqmail.com>
I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey.
Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount
of drag
created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I
think
there over $100 for like 6 ft.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
That was Bill Phillips and is the case in which the pilot chose to dive
to escape the turbulence. Not a new case as far as I can tell.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert N. Eli
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
<robert.eli@comcast.net>
Scott,
When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so
ago, I
also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not
the
control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing
speed.
So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in
the
archives.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Thatcher" <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter
> <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>
> In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent
contributors to
> the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide
the
> correct terminology when referring to flutter.
>
> Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does
not
> necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer
will
> fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no
flutter,
> assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust
while
> flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and
elasticity of
> the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an
increse in
> lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become
sufficiently
> divergent resulting in failure.
>
> Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight
(such as
> ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when
used
> without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a
wing is
> called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I
do
> remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during
> lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not
flutter (a
> seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but
rather,
> "the Pogo effect."
>
> Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of
> divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived
to
> tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil
type
> vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and
gaining in
> severity.
>
> In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in
> amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which
it did.
> In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started
to
> change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours
of his
> own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed
safely and
> examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had
extreme
> wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during
> pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not
making any
> statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported
by the
> participants.
>
> In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near
Vne but
> rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe
to
> assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort,
but it
> would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than
speculative.
>
> Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear
from
> those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude
excitations
> of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned
with.
> I have added a 15th question.
>
> The following are questions I would like those who have experienced
> flutter
> to provide.
>
> 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter?
> 2. Do you have wing lockers?
> 3. Were you using flaps?
> 4. Were you making left or right turns?
> 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight?
> 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight?
> 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar?
> 8. How did you recover from the flutter?
> 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter?
> 10. What make of engine were you using?
> 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop
or
> engine)?
> 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions?
> 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or
after
> construction?
> 14. Any other information you feel is important.
> 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild
or
> Manufactured?
>
> Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and
report to
> the
> list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on
this
> forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld.
>
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
12/22/2007 2:02 PM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
Les,
I noticed on the 701 demo flight that Roger kept milking the throttle on approach
to keep the sink
rate down and probably to clear the carbs. One thing is for sure the 701 does
not have a glide
ratio like a C152. Good to hear your first flight went well. Happy Flying.
Art/701/Scratch/Procuring Materials and Tools
--- Les Goldner <lgold@quantum-associates.com> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and send them out in
> a week or two to those who request them.
> I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky that Paul
> Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N. California
> during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden flight and show me how
> to fly it. Within an hour and a half I was able to solo... Still need a lot
> of practice since this plane flies very differently than my "old" Challenger
> II UL.
> The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I think I
> a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low (below 40-MPH) on
> final without applying power to slow the sink rate.
> Regards and happy holiday,
> Les
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune
> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly
> >
> >
> > Congratulations!
> >
> > Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access
> > doors, much lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal
> > BRS chute) I'd like to see pics of the plane and the above,
> > if you can get the pics to work.
> >
> > --------
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Photoshare, and much much more:
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch |
Bob,
I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of us who'd appreciate more info
and pictures of your canopy latch. I, for one, am starting the
fuselage and would rather do things the best way from the beginning
instead of modifying later.
Al,
Zenvair 601XL
Gore VA
On Dec 23, 2007, at 11:18 AM, robert stone wrote:
> Ed,
> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated
> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a
> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have
> had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If
> any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it
> scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new
> latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon
> request.
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Thanks Bob, you already sent me the photos and I pointed out that the
hinge pin of that latch would be the weakest link to watch. I am
strongly considering something like what you did but as a redundant
measure..... sort of like that little cahin on a lady's bracelet, you
know?
Merry Christmas,
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: robert stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
Ed,
What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the
Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I
built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems
with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have
had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you
and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish
pictures and an explanation upon request.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is
lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail
is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is
made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in
the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is
not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The
full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the
canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so
severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the
canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in
flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches
at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The
reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown
force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even
that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of
incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of
strut pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed
as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever
strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy
won't slam down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
12/22/2007 2:02 PM
Message 23
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| Subject: | Dave's Brake video |
Hi, I've uploaded this ugly video on youtube testing my Dave's brake on
1.1mm thickness alloy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6p-rxkPYYU
Ciao
Bruno
www.shortcutto701.com
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Joe,
I use a 1/16th x .75 nylon strap with plastic buckles to aluminum loops
center of the rear bow to one between the seat backs. It works fine,
and it doesn't have
the hard shock value of a chain if it gets caught in a breeze. It's
adjustable and doesn't get in the way up or down and doesn't weigh anything.
see links,
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg
I have had the canopy act as a sail with me setting on the wing and
carry me slowly across the apron a
couple of times until it was lowered, so it's durable
.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Southern Reflections wrote:
> Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am
> thinking about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack
> to stop real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up
> Thanks Joe N101HD XL/RAM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* robert stone <mailto:rstone4@hot.rr.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
>
> Ed,
> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated
> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a
> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I
> have had no problems with my canopy since making these two
> changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight
> you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to
> see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and
> an explanation upon request.
>
Message 25
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|
Congratulations of course. Where pray tell, is said 801 hangared in all
of its holiday done-ness??
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: dj45
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas
Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S.
--------
Do not archive
Dan Stanton
100% Done
801, IO360
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826
--
12/22/2007 2:02 PM
Message 26
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Google says:
http://4kix.us/_wsn/page2.html
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas
Congratulations of course. Where pray tell, is said 801 hangared in all of
its holiday done-ness??
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: dj45
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas
Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S.
--------
Do not archive
Dan Stanton
100% Done
801, IO360
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826
<Bp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link
Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List
nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron======================
bsp; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-- Edition. 12/22/2007 2:02 PM
Message 27
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| Subject: | Construction Manual |
If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get an ID
and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. In
that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form.
Jerry
601 HDS rotax 912
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual
I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in
PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me.
I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so
I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let
me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop
with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition.
I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I
could get one for the XL that would be good too.
Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric |
Airp
Or not. Is there any evidence that they've gotten any grants?
Did anyone that was at OSH even see that cool little electric motor spin a prop?
shilcom wrote:
> maybe there is lots of Gov't grants involved. Bob U.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153863#153863
Message 29
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I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Corvair types'
>
> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner
and 66" Warp Drive prop.
>
> Merry Christmas
>
> Jay in Dallas
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865
Message 30
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| Subject: | Construction Manual |
Remember that the in PDF files you can download from the web site the
photographs are of much lower resolution than the version on the photo
assembly guide CD.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Latimer
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual
If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get an ID
and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. In
that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form.
Jerry
601 HDS rotax 912
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual
I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in
PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me.
I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so
I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let
me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop
with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition.
I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I
could get one for the XL that would be good too.
Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812
Message 31
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Hi,
Ive contacted BRS and this is what Ive got.......
Dear Albert:
Thank you for taking the time to register your information on the BRS web
site. You have been added to our database as intersted in a zodiax 601 XL.
Your information has been logged.
Begining on November 1st 2007 this email will not be direclty answered. If
you have an applicaition question, an order follow up or need more
information than is on our web site. Please call us at 651-457-7491
For Ultralight/Sport questions please call Gregg Ellsworth. For Qestions
related to Cessna please call John Gilmore.
For Marketing or non aviation questions please call Gary Moore.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald Steele" <rsteele@rjsit.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: AMD & BRS
>
> First I'd seen this. I too would like to take a look at it. The others
> I've seen just didn't look to practical. Have you checked the BRS web
> site?
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Iberplanes wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> It is listed as an option, and...
>>
>> Aircraft Manufacturing & Development Co. (AMD) has completed their first
>> BRS (Ballistic Recovery Systems) parachute installation in a Zodiac
>> 601XL - SLSA. The aircraft was certified on January 30th 2007 at the
>> production facilities in Eastman, Georgia
>>
>> "Flying the Zodiac is super fun. Its excellent maneuverability and
>> visibility are great features. Pilots and passengers are always looking
>> at increasing safety features, and the BRS parachute provides that added
>> security," stated John Degonia, AMDs sales manager.
>>
>>
>> Take a look at: http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/news/
>> BRS_ZODIAC_FEB_2007.htm
>>
>> As said, if anyone can get or know the plans for such an installation It
>> would be kindly appreciated.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> --------
>> Alberto Martin
>> 601 XL - Jabiru 3300
>> www.iberplanes.es
>> Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153727#153727
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Canopy Gas Struts & Latch |
Al,
It's fairly simple like most of the stuff I come up with. Just use
hard wood. Oak is what I recommend and make a block for the lower part
of the canopy. Make another block for the top side of the fuselage.
When you mount them use screws that go only about 3/4 of the way into
the wood. The reason for this is because after both blocks are
installed, you will be required to power sand them at the same time
until the entire bottom and top outer surfaces are flat. Then put the
latch in place. The latch must be mounted in such a way so that when it
is closed it is tight. There are latches that have a safety ring at the
bottom when latched, these are the kind to use. The ring is so a pin can
be inserted to insure the latch not popping open when latched I have
only one picture and I have re-done the job since it was taken. The new
insulation looks a lot better and I will take some pictures of it and
send it out to the net within a few days. I now have to return to my
Santa Clause duties because I have 5 Grand Children and 11 Great Grand
Children who have great expectations.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
TO ALL OF YOU GUYS
Bob Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Hays" <alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch
<alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com>
>
> Bob,
>
> I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of us who'd appreciate more info
> and pictures of your canopy latch. I, for one, am starting the
> fuselage and would rather do things the best way from the beginning
> instead of modifying later.
>
> Al,
> Zenvair 601XL
> Gore VA
>
> On Dec 23, 2007, at 11:18 AM, robert stone wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
>> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
>> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
>> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated
>> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a
>> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have
>> had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If
>> any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it
>> scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new
>> latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon
>> request.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
I have just addressed this topic in an e-mail to the net. More
information to follow.
Bob Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Southern Reflections
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am
thinking about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack
to stop real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks
Joe N101HD XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: robert stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
Ed,
What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated
the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2
that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no
problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you
guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell
out of you and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will
furnish pictures and an explanation upon request.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
I think something important has been left out of the discussion
regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of
strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is
such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when
the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly
so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail
and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the
strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated
force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of
the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force
and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point
is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so
bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility.
Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail
is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy
rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing
effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a
scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the
difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference
in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost
closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the
strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish
closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable.
I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find
necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from
slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very
likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy
itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open
position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I
received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60#
struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the
option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was
such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down
side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose
strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage
in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if
and when I need them.
The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in
flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches
at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The
reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown
force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even
that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of
incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of
strut pressure.
Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely
closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use
whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your
canopy won't slam down unexpectedly.
Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all,
Dred
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 34
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It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three
drawings.
Andy Ackland
601HD (60% done) in the UK
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view
I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Corvair types'
>
> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's
spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop.
>
> Merry Christmas
>
> Jay in Dallas
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865
Message 35
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OOPS, it should have been third ANGLE PROJECTION drawing.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Ackland
Sent: 23 December 2007 21:27
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view
It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three
drawings.
Andy Ackland
601HD (60% done) in the UK
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view
I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Corvair types'
>
> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's
spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop.
>
> Merry Christmas
>
> Jay in Dallas
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures |
- a different perspective
Ladies and Gentlemen:
Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this
phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a
minimal amount of time!
Mack
601XL
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) |
Great idea Larry,Abetter mouse trap....Merry Xmas. Joe N101HDXL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
>
> Joe,
> I use a 1/16th x .75 nylon strap with plastic buckles to aluminum loops
> center of the rear bow to one between the seat backs. It works fine, and
> it doesn't have
> the hard shock value of a chain if it gets caught in a breeze. It's
> adjustable and doesn't get in the way up or down and doesn't weigh
> anything.
> see links,
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg
> I have had the canopy act as a sail with me setting on the wing and carry
> me slowly across the apron a
> couple of times until it was lowered, so it's durable
> .
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> Southern Reflections wrote:
>> Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am thinking
>> about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack to stop
>> real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks Joe
>> N101HD XL/RAM
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* robert stone <mailto:rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs)
>>
>> Ed,
>> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely
>> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by
>> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now.
>> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated
>> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a
>> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I
>> have had no problems with my canopy since making these two
>> changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight
>> you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to
>> see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and
>> an explanation upon request.
>>
>
>
>
Message 38
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Picky, picky. The fourth view is the fuselage without the wings so one could use
that drawing for body paint schemes.
It is still only a three VIEW drawing.
Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630N
"Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views.
>
>
>Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
>> Corvair types'
>>
>> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner
and 66" Warp Drive prop.
>>
>> Merry Christmas
>>
>> Jay in Dallas
>
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865
>
>
Message 39
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|
In the US, the technical term for a drawing that shows top, side and front is called
a three view drawing. Comes from doing this for 45 years.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"Andrew Ackland" <andrewack@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three
>drawings.
>
>Andy Ackland
>601HD (60% done) in the UK
>
>Do not archive
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
>Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view
>
>
>I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views.
>
>
>Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
>> Corvair types'
>>
>> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's
>spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop.
>>
>> Merry Christmas
>>
>> Jay in Dallas
>
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures |
- a different perspective
Hi Mack,
If, indeed, you experience control flutter, the only way to stop it
is to immediately pull up and reduce airspeed. If you survive that
(which is unlikely) then you should land quickly and do a thorough
inspection of the damaged area.
However, I don't think this is a problem with any of the Heintz
designs. The control structures are very rigid and don't lend
themselves to flutter. Also, this is a problem which usually shows
up on high speed airplanes at speeds way beyond those achievable in our planes.
The problem which I think is a remote possibility is some sort of
resonant vibration or oscillation that could occur under some
condition not normally experienced in flight. This is what happened
to destroy many early models of the Lockheed Electra that broke apart
in flight. There was a resonant condition that came up with the
fuselage that was forever fixed with a small design change. Unlike
control flutter, there is no obvious action to take if this occurs to
you in flight. Perhaps a change in flight conditions by a rapid
change in attitude or speed might help.
There is one report I remember of an XL pilot who flew over a power
plant and experienced a loud vibration which he thought was in the
wings. He took some drastic action and the vibration stopped. I
don't think there was any obvious damage from this incident.
This is all very mysterious to me, and I don't know of any way to
prove there is or is not a problem with the design. As I posted
earlier, I added gussets at the top end of the wing attach uprights
in a fashion similar to the gussets on the main landing gear
uprights. This change was approved by ZAC without them saying it
would help but they did say it wouldn't hurt anything. I did it with
the idea of stiffening the fuselage in the wing attachment area.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 02:08 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote:
>
>Ladies and Gentlemen:
>Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this
>phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a
>minimal amount of time!
>Mack
>601XL
Message 41
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| Subject: | [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Charles F. Long <charles.long@tds.net>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Low Cost Steering Boot design for 601
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@tds.net.12.23.2007/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 42
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| Subject: | [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Charles F. Long <charles.long@tds.net>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Low Cost Steering Boot design for 601
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@tds.net.12.23.2007/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Metric W & B |
I've converted the spreadsheet and sent it to Darryl. Thanks to (I believe)
Gary Ray for the original spreadsheet.
I've also tried to send it as an attachment to the list and had it disappear
(twice). That's odd because Darryl was able to post the original on the
list. Maybe it is because I placed it in a zip file and Matt's virus checker
doesn't like it?
I've sent a query to Matt. In the meantime if you would like a copy e-mail
me direct and I'll send you a copy (with a whole lot of disclaimers).
"craig at craigandjean dot com"
BTW: it looks like attachments are not archived forever on the list. If you
look at old messages that had attachments the attachment is no longer
present. So if what you are sending has lasting value send it to Matt for
posting to the file archive:
www.matronics.com/photoshare
After some peer review I'll send the metric W&B spreadsheet to www.ch601.org
for upload.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Legg
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Metric W & B
Thanks Craig,
I have added the file as an attachment. Its well done and I got it off
www.ch601.org. Thanks for your time on this.
Darryl
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153588#153588
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_xl_wb_final_139.xls
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing |
Wow so the 701 must be a double sheet of plywood :D
I didn't check the price.I think the ratio is like 3:1 length to width for fairings
so they are a little short.But they have to be better then round tube.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153897#153897
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures |
-
The answer is almost always reduce speed.
aprazer wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen:
> Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this
> phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a
> minimal amount of time!
> Mack
> 601XL
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153899#153899
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing |
Failur...
aprazer wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen:
> Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this
> phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a
> minimal amount of time!
> Mack
> 601XL
Instantly changing the load on the control surface will most likely help a
lot in this situation. /and as stated before, slow down.
Lynn Nelsen
601 HD Frostproof Florida
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 47
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| Subject: | Construction Manual |
Geez,, Your building a plane worth several tens of thousands of dollars.
How much can Zenith charge for a CD?. Maybe 50 bucks. If you really hav
e a legitimate set of plans I am sure ZAC will support your effort in bu
ilding. If you have a set of boot leg plans then you are on your own.
Merry Christmas and do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
>
Remember that the in PDF files you can download from the web site the
photographs are of much lower resolution than the version on the photo
assembly guide CD.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Latim
er
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual
If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get a
n ID
and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. I
n
that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form.
Jerry
601 HDS rotax 912
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual
I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual
in
PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me.
I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual
so
I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to
let
me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the s
hop
with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition.
I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so
If I
could get one for the XL that would be good too.
Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4td6x39zMIzir93p7LG
t3k6JK9PNRJE69DQdnoUG94WsRShM/
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing |
I can't remember where I saw it but one of the ultralight sites sells PVC streamline
fairings that slip over the structural tube. The only downside - besides
the weight - is that you can no longer see the structural tube for visual inspection
without removing the fairing.
You could also make a single ply glass/epoxy 3:1 teardrop fairing that would overlap
and tape in place so that it could be easily removed for periodic inspection.
I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey.
Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount of drag
created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I think
there over $100 for like 6 ft.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmccune"
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:24 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing
>
> Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the
> wing struts? A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with.
>
> Kevin
>
> --------
> Kevin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg
>
>
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric |
Airp
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Did anyone that was at OSH even see that cool little electric motor spin a prop?
No, I did not see them demonstrate the engine, nor do I know know if it has run.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153913#153913
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures |
- a different perspective
not to be too picky Paul, but I thought I recalled the issue with the early Electras
to be a engine/nacelle whirl mode pnenomenon?
Hi Mack,
If, indeed, you experience control flutter, the only way to stop it
is to immediately pull up and reduce airspeed. If you survive that
(which is unlikely) then you should land quickly and do a thorough
inspection of the damaged area.
However, I don't think this is a problem with any of the Heintz
designs. The control structures are very rigid and don't lend
themselves to flutter. Also, this is a problem which usually shows
up on high speed airplanes at speeds way beyond those achievable in our planes.
The problem which I think is a remote possibility is some sort of
resonant vibration or oscillation that could occur under some
condition not normally experienced in flight. This is what happened
to destroy many early models of the Lockheed Electra that broke apart
in flight. There was a resonant condition that came up with the
fuselage that was forever fixed with a small design change. Unlike
control flutter, there is no obvious action to take if this occurs to
you in flight. Perhaps a change in flight conditions by a rapid
change in attitude or speed might help.
There is one report I remember of an XL pilot who flew over a power
plant and experienced a loud vibration which he thought was in the
wings. He took some drastic action and the vibration stopped. I
don't think there was any obvious damage from this incident.
This is all very mysterious to me, and I don't know of any way to
prove there is or is not a problem with the design. As I posted
earlier, I added gussets at the top end of the wing attach uprights
in a fashion similar to the gussets on the main landing gear
uprights. This change was approved by ZAC without them saying it
would help but they did say it wouldn't hurt anything. I did it with
the idea of stiffening the fuselage in the wing attachment area.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 02:08 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote:
>
>Ladies and Gentlemen:
>Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this
>phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a
>minimal amount of time!
>Mack
>601XL
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
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Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing |
Failures - a different perspective
Hi David,
You could well be right. However, the story I heard was it was a
resonance problem in the long fuselage tube. It would break in half
when the resonance struck and the plane would suddenly be two halves
of a plane.
After receiving your message, I decided to do some research on the
net to see what I could find on the Electra structural failures. It
sounds like you are at least as close to the real truth as I
was. Here is a quote from one of the articles I found: "In two of
the crashes, in-flight structural failures caused by weakness of the
engine mount that led to excessive vibration had torn the aircraft apart. "
I also found a number of other accident related articles which seemed
to indicate all sorts of other problems like how the cargo was
loaded. Similarly, I remember years of explanations of all the
V-tail Bonanza break-ups being explained by poor pilot skill. That
worked well since none of the pilots survived to defend
themselves. Then, after they issued a design change strengthening
the rear fuselage the break-ups stopped. I guess it is really hard
to determine exactly why a plane breaks up in flight and there may be
many false reports before the final truth is reached - if it ever
is. Indeed there may be many reasons that all work together to end
the plane's flight.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 04:52 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote:
>not to be too picky Paul, but I thought I recalled the issue with
>the early Electras to be a engine/nacelle whirl mode pnenomenon?
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter |
Whenever an airplane goes out of control with flutter, oscillations,
porpoise, or whatever you call it, the rapid shift in forces puts great stress
on
the airframe. The up cycle puts excess positive G forces on the frame and the
down cycle puts excess negative G forces on the frame, control surface, flap,
elevator, wing or whatever. These excess forces quickly exceed the design
limits of the airframe, resulting in structural failure -- it happens pretty
fast. The immediate actions needed are to reduce airspeed with power and
attitude change. This has traditionally meant to pull up to slow down, along
with
reduction of power. This is why some folks shook their heads when the 601
pilot in the power plant incident went into a dive rather than pull up. But
he got away with it. He probably stumbled into what military fighter pilots
have been doing for several generations.
When an airplane gets into an out of control maneuver: a PIO (pilot induced
oscillation), a JC maneuver (named for the person whose birth we are
celebrating), an unwinnable dogfight in combat, the correct maneuver is often to
unload the G forces on the plane and fly out of the maneuver at zero G's. That
is to push forward slightly until the weight of your body on the seat is zero,
not any positive force and no negative force, equilibrium. This will
eliminate overstress on the airframe. It may not break the oscillations
immediately, so it is vital not the chase the oscillations (you can never catch
up with
them and will almost certainly exert excessive forces in the wrong
direction), but to continue to hold slightly forward elevator forces to keep your
butt
light on the seat. Postural sense they call it. Once the plane is back
under full control, you can apply power to accelerate out of any stall, or
reduce power to avoid an overspeed dive, just don't re-enter another out of
control situation.
At zero G's an airplane can accelerate rapidly -- but you are exchanging
altitude for airspeed. Since there is no G force on the plane, it has little
drag, and engine power seems to be multiplied. Don't overspeed engine, prop,
or aircraft limits.
Get the plane on the ground ASAP and check it out for damage. Land at the
nearest field, you may have another failure you are not aware of.
Cheers,
Bob Archibald
Dragonfly Aviation
CH601XL/Lyc/Dynons
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Message 53
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| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce Streamline Tubing |
Yes the round struts do create a heckuva lot of drag... the round cross
section is one of the highest drag shapes out there or so the experts
say. I just put streamline cuffs(homemade aluminum) over my round struts
and the difference in cruise speed is at least 5 mph. There is
noticeable inprovement in climb and glide also, as well as significant
buffet/vibration reduction, not to mention fuel burn.
Try Mrs. Carlson, Palestine OH(google) for streamline aluminum strut
material. It's worth the cost/trouble.
Joe
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Another 701 is ready to fly |
Kevin,
The 701 seems to glide OK above 50+MPH but under 40MPH the sink rate seems
high. My instructor told me to keep it to 60-MPH on approach, just throttle
down and lift the nose just before touch-down, and add a little power if it
sinks too fast until I got more familiar with the plane's characteristics.
Does anyone have data on the 701's glide ratio and best glide speed with a
100-HP Rotax 912 lightly and heavily loaded?
Regards and happy Holiday,
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Art Olechowski
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:38 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly
>
> --> <ifly4fun2@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Les,
> I noticed on the 701 demo flight that Roger kept milking the
> throttle on approach to keep the sink rate down and probably
> to clear the carbs. One thing is for sure the 701 does not
> have a glide ratio like a C152. Good to hear your first
> flight went well. Happy Flying.
>
> Art/701/Scratch/Procuring Materials and Tools
> --- Les Goldner <lgold@quantum-associates.com> wrote:
>
> > --> <lgold@quantum-associates.com>
> >
> > Kevin,
> > I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and
> send them
> > out in a week or two to those who request them.
> > I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky
> that Paul
> > Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N.
> > California during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden
> > flight and show me how to fly it. Within an hour and a half
> I was able
> > to solo... Still need a lot of practice since this plane flies very
> > differently than my "old" Challenger II UL.
> > The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I
> > think I a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low
> > (below 40-MPH) on final without applying power to slow the
> sink rate.
> > Regards and happy holiday,
> > Les
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of kmccune
> > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM
> > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly
> > >
> > >
> > > Congratulations!
> > >
> > > Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access
> doors, much
> > > lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal BRS
> chute) I'd like
> > > to see pics of the plane and the above, if you can get
> the pics to
> > > work.
> > >
> > > --------
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this topic online here:
> > >
> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Photoshare, and much much more:
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 55
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| Subject: | 601HD plans new 2006 unused |
I am looking to trade my new 601HD plans for some unused 701 plans.
David Mikesell
230 Theresa Drive, #6
Cloverdale, CA 95425
skyguynca@skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
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