---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/23/07: 55 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:26 AM - William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly (Craig Payne) 2. 03:19 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Clive Richards) 3. 05:07 AM - Re: William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly (kmccune) 4. 05:34 AM - Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Scott Thatcher) 5. 06:25 AM - Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (kmccune) 6. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Robert N. Eli) 7. 07:03 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Edward Moody II) 8. 08:18 AM - Construction Manual (Wingrider) 9. 09:10 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections) 10. 09:39 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (robert stone) 11. 09:43 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (John Short) 12. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Juan Vega) 13. 10:25 AM - Fw: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters (Southern Reflections) 14. 10:39 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections) 15. 10:41 AM - CHRISTmas (dj45) 16. 11:20 AM - Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (T. Graziano) 17. 11:55 AM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Craig Payne) 18. 11:56 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (Edward Moody II) 19. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (Edward Moody II) 20. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Art Olechowski) 21. 12:02 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch (Al Hays) 22. 12:03 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Edward Moody II) 23. 12:04 PM - Dave's Brake video (Bruno M.) 24. 12:05 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (LarryMcFarland) 25. 12:14 PM - Re: CHRISTmas (Edward Moody II) 26. 12:31 PM - Re: CHRISTmas (Craig Payne) 27. 12:45 PM - Re: Construction Manual (Jerry Latimer) 28. 12:50 PM - Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (Gig Giacona) 29. 12:52 PM - Re: Three view (Gig Giacona) 30. 12:53 PM - Re: Construction Manual (Craig Payne) 31. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: AMD & BRS (Iberplanes IGL) 32. 01:06 PM - Fw: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch (robert stone) 33. 01:07 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (robert stone) 34. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Andrew Ackland) 35. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Andrew Ackland) 36. 02:09 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Mack Kreizenbeck) 37. 02:12 PM - Re: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) (Southern Reflections) 38. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Jaybannist@cs.com) 39. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Three view (Jaybannist@cs.com) 40. 02:35 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Paul Mulwitz) 41. 02:51 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 42. 02:53 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 43. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Metric W & B (Craig Payne) 44. 03:47 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (kmccune) 45. 03:59 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - (Gig Giacona) 46. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failur... (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com) 47. 04:34 PM - Re: Construction Manual (n801bh@netzero.com) 48. 04:41 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing (David Downey) 49. 04:51 PM - Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp (PatrickW) 50. 04:52 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (David Downey) 51. 05:17 PM - Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective (Paul Mulwitz) 52. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter (DRAGONFUEL@aol.com) 53. 06:33 PM - Aircraft Spruce Streamline Tubing (Joe Spencer) 54. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly (Les Goldner) 55. 10:06 PM - 601HD plans new 2006 unused () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:59 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly The FAA has signed it off and "Flying should start in a week or so". Look about a third of the way down on this page: www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html -- Craig ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:37 AM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Larry I think you are correct in using the lower pressure struts If canopy was not latched correctly & opened in flight it may be impossible to reclose it if gas struts are too strong. I beleive someone in UK had this problem & had difficulity in maintaining level flight due to increased drag donot know what struts he used. We have used adjustable struts & let the pressure out (about 35lbs) so they just opened the canopy (of earlier design to XL) these have also leaked over time & need replacing or topping up, they still hold the canopy open after we lift it. Merry Christmas Clive do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) > > Hi guys, > I received my gas struts only two days after ordering. I bought the 40 lb > force type and replaced the old ones today. I also took the old springs > and tried pushing each down > on a scale to see what the extended 1/2-inch force was after 4 years. I > got 28 lbs on one and 30 lbs on the other. The new springs are 40 lbs > right on the money and they > hold the canopy up without any difficulty. But for leakage over time, I > still feel the 40 lb type is the way to go. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > robert stone wrote: >> When you order the kit for the Zodiac601XL the 40# gas struts will >> be included. You might specifically request 60# struts when you order >> the kit however I don't know if Zenith Aircraft even stocks the stronger >> ones. I would order direct from the McMaster-Carr Company, Stock number >> for the 60# strut is 9416K123, the company web site is: >> http://www.mcmaster.com/ >> >> Bob Stone >> Harker Heights, Tx >> ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 >> * >> >> * > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: William Wynne's Corvair-powered 701 ready to fly From: "kmccune" I saw this, it looks good, I already have the pics saved for reference, just in case ;^). I hope he publishes the weight and balance/performance info. Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153795#153795 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:36 AM PST US From: "Scott Thatcher" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the correct terminology when referring to flutter. Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently divergent resulting in failure. Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, "the Pogo effect." Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in severity. In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did. In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the participants. In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative. Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. I have added a 15th question. The following are questions I would like those who have experienced flutter to provide. 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter? 2. Do you have wing lockers? 3. Were you using flaps? 4. Were you making left or right turns? 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight? 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight? 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar? 8. How did you recover from the flutter? 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter? 10. What make of engine were you using? 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or engine)? 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions? 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after construction? 14. Any other information you feel is important. 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or Manufactured? Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to the list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld. Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA N601EL ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing From: "kmccune" Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the wing struts? A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with. Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:39 AM PST US From: "Robert N. Eli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter Scott, When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so ago, I also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not the control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing speed. So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in the archives. Bob Eli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Thatcher" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter > > > In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to > the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the > correct terminology when referring to flutter. > > Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not > necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will > fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, > assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while > flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of > the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in > lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently > divergent resulting in failure. > > Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as > ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used > without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is > called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do > remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during > lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a > seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, > "the Pogo effect." > > Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of > divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to > tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type > vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in > severity. > > In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in > amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did. > In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to > change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his > own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and > examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme > wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during > pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any > statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the > participants. > > In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but > rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to > assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it > would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative. > > Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from > those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations > of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. > I have added a 15th question. > > The following are questions I would like those who have experienced > flutter > to provide. > > 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter? > 2. Do you have wing lockers? > 3. Were you using flaps? > 4. Were you making left or right turns? > 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight? > 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight? > 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar? > 8. How did you recover from the flutter? > 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter? > 10. What make of engine were you using? > 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or > engine)? > 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions? > 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after > construction? > 14. Any other information you feel is important. > 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or > Manufactured? > > Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to > the > list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this > forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld. > > Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL > 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA > N601EL > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:21 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual From: "Wingrider" I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me. I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition. I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I could get one for the XL that would be good too. Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:31 AM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Dred,I bought the70# and they work great,they make the movement of the canopy more solid and seems to remove alot of the left and right slop at the rear of the canopy ,and my canopy is locking better than it ever has,seems to open smoother with less effort there great..... JoeN101HD601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:23 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Ed, What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon request. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:23 AM PST US From: "John Short" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey. Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount of drag created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I think there over $100 for like 6 ft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kmccune" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing > > Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the > wing struts? A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with. > > Kevin > > -------- > Kevin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:40 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter All I wonder how many cases of "Flutter" are just the wings Oil canning. Flutter is a pretty difficulty thing to see, its more feel.. Oil canning is pretty typical on the 601 and is not a problem. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: "Robert N. Eli" >Sent: Dec 23, 2007 9:22 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter > > >Scott, > >When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so ago, I >also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not the >control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing speed. >So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in the >archives. > >Bob Eli > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Thatcher" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter > > >> >> >> In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to >> the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the >> correct terminology when referring to flutter. >> >> Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not >> necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will >> fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, >> assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while >> flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of >> the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in >> lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently >> divergent resulting in failure. >> >> Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as >> ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used >> without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is >> called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do >> remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during >> lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a >> seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, >> "the Pogo effect." >> >> Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of >> divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to >> tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type >> vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in >> severity. >> >> In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in >> amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did. >> In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to >> change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his >> own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and >> examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme >> wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during >> pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any >> statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the >> participants. >> >> In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but >> rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to >> assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it >> would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative. >> >> Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from >> those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations >> of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. >> I have added a 15th question. >> >> The following are questions I would like those who have experienced >> flutter >> to provide. >> >> 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter? >> 2. Do you have wing lockers? >> 3. Were you using flaps? >> 4. Were you making left or right turns? >> 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight? >> 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight? >> 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar? >> 8. How did you recover from the flutter? >> 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter? >> 10. What make of engine were you using? >> 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or >> engine)? >> 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions? >> 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after >> construction? >> 14. Any other information you feel is important. >> 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or >> Manufactured? >> >> Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to >> the >> list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this >> forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld. >> >> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL >> 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA >> N601EL >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:52 AM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters ----- Original Message ----- From: Millman Kathy B. (DNREC) Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:14 AM Subject: FW: WHITE CHRISTMAS -Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters do not archive http://www.thecompassgroup.biz/merryxmas.swf MERRY CHRISTMAS!! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:41 AM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am thinking about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack to stop real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks Joe N101HD XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Ed, What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon request. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas From: "dj45" Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S. -------- Do not archive Dan Stanton 100% Done 801, IO360 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:03 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter The one case "matronics list" report of "wing flutter?" was in Jan this yea in Georgia, and is as copied below. Was it flutter or just a really bad ride in extremely man made turbulent conditions? If flutter, the diving and picking up speed should have resulted in a really bad outcome.In the other case, do not know the circumstances, but I always pull up and down onmy flaps to make sure excessive play is not present during pre-flight. I wonder if the "second" case the descending right turn was made with flaps down - my XL will really pick up speed easily sliding past max flap extension speed, even with full flaps if I let it.During my Phase I testing, I took my XL, in gradual steps in calm air, up to 195 mph IASwith no indications of any "buzz".The pogo effect on the Saturn V, was I believe due to the spring effect of the long missile body being pushed by the thrust of each those huge first stage F-1 Engines burning, if I recall correctly, 15 tons/sec of kerosene plus oxidizer.With all of the XLs flying, I do not believe we have any flutter concerns IF the airplane is flown in its established envelope. I have flown in some really bad natural turbulence with my XL, with no problems - recommend you keep your seat belt tight, remove your headset or hang on to it and fly Va max.Tony Graziano601XL/Jab3300; N493TG kit built with wing lockers; 331 really enjoyable (even in "mild" turbulence)flight hours ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, clear, cool and only a slight wind. The only big thing around much to see nearby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the middle. Three huge steam towers that look like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake about two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the down wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above 140 when we flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a fast pitch, aileron and all and it looked to be moving maybe two inched up and down. I figured a couple seconds would break it off. I didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the right wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound was great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the snap dive, maxing above 170 and flew slow and easy back to the field before I tested the controls. Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin deform, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all inspection panels for a close inspection this weekend and check bolts, controls, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolonged violent movement of the wing did not damage something other than my pride. Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have been so stupid not to know the first thing !! I am interested though in knowing why the wings fluttered in this thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cause this extreme reaction? Was is just the level of heat and speed the invisible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300-------------Subject: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter From: Scott Thatcher (s_thatcher@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Dec 23 - 5:34 AM In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the correct terminology when referring to flutter. Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently divergent resulting in failure. Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, "the Pogo effect." Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in severity. In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did. In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the participants. In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative. Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. I have added a 15th question. The following are questions I would like those who have experienced flutter to provide. 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter? 2. Do you have wing lockers? 3. Were you using flaps? 4. Were you making left or right turns? 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight? 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight? 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar? 8. How did you recover from the flutter? 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter? 10. What make of engine were you using? 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or engine)? 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions? 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after construction? 14. Any other information you feel is important. 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or Manufactured? Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to the list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld. Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:00 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. Actually I had a very different experience in a similar situation. I was flying left-seat with my instructor in an Evector SportStar. This plane is very similar to the 601XL: low-wing LSA with a forward hinged bubble canopy. One difference Is that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind the seats: www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm The canopy popped while we were in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was well over a foot. While the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I wrapped my arm around the cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could not close the canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evector redesigned the latch the next year. I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the canopy as it did not decrease as I closed the gap. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:40 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing They look good and they are tremendously strong but they don't do a lot for streamlining other than in terms of appearance. I have them on an Excalibur ultralight and the plane still acts like a sheet of plywood turned flat to the wind. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: John Short To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey. Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount of drag created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I think there over $100 for like 6 ft. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:22 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter That was Bill Phillips and is the case in which the pilot chose to dive to escape the turbulence. Not a new case as far as I can tell. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert N. Eli To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:22 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter Scott, When this flutter issue discussion was in vogue about a year or so ago, I also recall a 601XL pilot reporting severe flutter of the wing (not the control surfaces) while overflying a cooling tower at normal crusing speed. So there may be at least three cases rather than two. It should be in the archives. Bob Eli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Thatcher" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter > > > In response to both Jay and Larry who are both excellent contributors to > the list, I think they are right in that it is important to provide the > correct terminology when referring to flutter. > > Flutter is not necessarily a result of high speed however and does not > necessarily limit itself to control surfaces. Normally, a designer will > fly the aircraft (usually in a dive) to Vne and if there is no flutter, > assume that it is safe. However, if the aircraft encounters a gust while > flying at even cruise speed, and the center of pressure and elasticity of > the wing is such that the lift on the wing changes (causing an increse in > lift), the wing may experience oscillations that can become sufficiently > divergent resulting in failure. > > Normally, flutter is seen in control surfaces that are not tight (such as > ailerons, flaps, elevators) and that can be induced to flutter when used > without a counterbalance. As to whether a divergent vibration on a wing is > called flutter, I will leave that to the experts in that field. I do > remember that the Saturn V experienced such severe vibrations during > lift-off that the name used to describe the condition was not flutter (a > seemingly benign condition compared to what was happending) but rather, > "the Pogo effect." > > Regardless of what it is called, we have at least two examples of > divergent vibrations in 601XL wings in which the participants lived to > tell about it. These vibrations were not small, rattle your pencil type > vibrations. They were full blown amplitudes of several feet and gaining in > severity. > > In one case, the pilot tried to slow the aircraft with no change in > amplitude and elected to dive in order to solve the problem, which it did. > In the second case, during a decending right turn, the wings started to > change amplitude so quickly, the passenger (with hundreds of hours of his > own) said he would never get in that plane again. They landed safely and > examined the plane to discover that the flap nylon bearings had extreme > wear. At this point I do not know if that wear was present during > pre-flight but it was definitely present post flight. I am not making any > statement or judgment here, only indicating what has been reported by the > participants. > > In both of these cases, the pilots stated they were no where near Vne but > rather in cruise only. Although neither has stated this, it is safe to > assume that both did experience a gust or turbulence of some sort, but it > would be helpful to have this down as empirical rather than speculative. > > Anyway, getting back to my original questions, I still want to hear from > those persons who have experienced flutter or high amplitude excitations > of their wings. Here again is the list of questions I am concerned with. > I have added a 15th question. > > The following are questions I would like those who have experienced > flutter > to provide. > > 1. What was the speed of the aircraft at the time of the flutter? > 2. Do you have wing lockers? > 3. Were you using flaps? > 4. Were you making left or right turns? > 5. Were you decending, ascending or in level flight? > 6. Had you attempted any aerobatics prior to this flight? > 7. Did you notice any smoking rivets along spar? > 8. How did you recover from the flutter? > 9. Was there any advanced notice of the pending flutter? > 10. What make of engine were you using? > 11. Did you notice any unusual vibrations prior to the flutter (prop or > engine)? > 12. Did you fly through unusual weather conditions? > 13. Did you make any structural changes to the wing itself during or after > construction? > 14. Any other information you feel is important. > 15. Is your aircraft a Plans (scratch) built, Kit built, Quickbuild or > Manufactured? > > Please send your answers to me and I will compile the data and report to > the > list, or , if you prefer, please answer the questions directly on this > forum. Please indicate if you want your name withheld. > > Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL > 601XL with Corvair, Still 99% complete but Registered as E-LSA > N601EL > > > > > > -- 12/22/2007 2:02 PM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:54 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly Les, I noticed on the 701 demo flight that Roger kept milking the throttle on approach to keep the sink rate down and probably to clear the carbs. One thing is for sure the 701 does not have a glide ratio like a C152. Good to hear your first flight went well. Happy Flying. Art/701/Scratch/Procuring Materials and Tools --- Les Goldner wrote: > > Kevin, > I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and send them out in > a week or two to those who request them. > I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky that Paul > Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N. California > during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden flight and show me how > to fly it. Within an hour and a half I was able to solo... Still need a lot > of practice since this plane flies very differently than my "old" Challenger > II UL. > The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I think I > a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low (below 40-MPH) on > final without applying power to slow the sink rate. > Regards and happy holiday, > Les > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly > > > > > > Congratulations! > > > > Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access > > doors, much lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal > > BRS chute) I'd like to see pics of the plane and the above, > > if you can get the pics to work. > > > > -------- > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:55 PM PST US From: Al Hays Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch Bob, I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of us who'd appreciate more info and pictures of your canopy latch. I, for one, am starting the fuselage and would rather do things the best way from the beginning instead of modifying later. Al, Zenvair 601XL Gore VA On Dec 23, 2007, at 11:18 AM, robert stone wrote: > Ed, > What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely > eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by > installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. > I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated > the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a > KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have > had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If > any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it > scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new > latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon > request. > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:05 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Thanks Bob, you already sent me the photos and I pointed out that the hinge pin of that latch would be the weakest link to watch. I am strongly considering something like what you did but as a redundant measure..... sort of like that little cahin on a lady's bracelet, you know? Merry Christmas, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Ed, What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon request. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 12/22/2007 2:02 PM ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:48 PM PST US From: "Bruno M." Subject: Zenith-List: Dave's Brake video Hi, I've uploaded this ugly video on youtube testing my Dave's brake on 1.1mm thickness alloy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6p-rxkPYYU Ciao Bruno www.shortcutto701.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:07 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Joe, I use a 1/16th x .75 nylon strap with plastic buckles to aluminum loops center of the rear bow to one between the seat backs. It works fine, and it doesn't have the hard shock value of a chain if it gets caught in a breeze. It's adjustable and doesn't get in the way up or down and doesn't weigh anything. see links, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg I have had the canopy act as a sail with me setting on the wing and carry me slowly across the apron a couple of times until it was lowered, so it's durable .. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Southern Reflections wrote: > Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am > thinking about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack > to stop real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up > Thanks Joe N101HD XL/RAM > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* robert stone > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM > *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) > > Ed, > What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely > eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by > installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. > I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated > the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a > KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I > have had no problems with my canopy since making these two > changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight > you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to > see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and > an explanation upon request. > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:35 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas Congratulations of course. Where pray tell, is said 801 hangared in all of its holiday done-ness?? Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: dj45 To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S. -------- Do not archive Dan Stanton 100% Done 801, IO360 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826 -- 12/22/2007 2:02 PM ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:40 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas Google says: http://4kix.us/_wsn/page2.html -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas Congratulations of course. Where pray tell, is said 801 hangared in all of its holiday done-ness?? Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: dj45 Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Zenith-List: CHRISTmas Santa came a little early and left a Pink slip for 9801S. -------- Do not archive Dan Stanton 100% Done 801, IO360 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153826#153826 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== bsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -- Edition. 12/22/2007 2:02 PM ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:25 PM PST US From: "Jerry Latimer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get an ID and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. In that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form. Jerry 601 HDS rotax 912 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me. I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition. I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I could get one for the XL that would be good too. Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp From: "Gig Giacona" Or not. Is there any evidence that they've gotten any grants? Did anyone that was at OSH even see that cool little electric motor spin a prop? shilcom wrote: > maybe there is lots of Gov't grants involved. Bob U. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153863#153863 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view From: "Gig Giacona" I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views. Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Corvair types' > > Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop. > > Merry Christmas > > Jay in Dallas -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:55 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual Remember that the in PDF files you can download from the web site the photographs are of much lower resolution than the version on the photo assembly guide CD. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Latimer Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:45 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get an ID and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. In that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form. Jerry 601 HDS rotax 912 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me. I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the shop with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition. I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I could get one for the XL that would be good too. Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:01 PM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: AMD & BRS Hi, Ive contacted BRS and this is what Ive got....... Dear Albert: Thank you for taking the time to register your information on the BRS web site. You have been added to our database as intersted in a zodiax 601 XL. Your information has been logged. Begining on November 1st 2007 this email will not be direclty answered. If you have an applicaition question, an order follow up or need more information than is on our web site. Please call us at 651-457-7491 For Ultralight/Sport questions please call Gregg Ellsworth. For Qestions related to Cessna please call John Gilmore. For Marketing or non aviation questions please call Gary Moore. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Steele" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: AMD & BRS > > First I'd seen this. I too would like to take a look at it. The others > I've seen just didn't look to practical. Have you checked the BRS web > site? > > Ron > > > On Dec 22, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Iberplanes wrote: > >> >> Hi, >> >> It is listed as an option, and... >> >> Aircraft Manufacturing & Development Co. (AMD) has completed their first >> BRS (Ballistic Recovery Systems) parachute installation in a Zodiac >> 601XL - SLSA. The aircraft was certified on January 30th 2007 at the >> production facilities in Eastman, Georgia >> >> "Flying the Zodiac is super fun. Its excellent maneuverability and >> visibility are great features. Pilots and passengers are always looking >> at increasing safety features, and the BRS parachute provides that added >> security," stated John Degonia, AMDs sales manager. >> >> >> Take a look at: http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/news/ >> BRS_ZODIAC_FEB_2007.htm >> >> As said, if anyone can get or know the plans for such an installation It >> would be kindly appreciated. >> >> Take care, >> >> -------- >> Alberto Martin >> 601 XL - Jabiru 3300 >> www.iberplanes.es >> Igualada - Barcelona - Spain >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153727#153727 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:36 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch Al, It's fairly simple like most of the stuff I come up with. Just use hard wood. Oak is what I recommend and make a block for the lower part of the canopy. Make another block for the top side of the fuselage. When you mount them use screws that go only about 3/4 of the way into the wood. The reason for this is because after both blocks are installed, you will be required to power sand them at the same time until the entire bottom and top outer surfaces are flat. Then put the latch in place. The latch must be mounted in such a way so that when it is closed it is tight. There are latches that have a safety ring at the bottom when latched, these are the kind to use. The ring is so a pin can be inserted to insure the latch not popping open when latched I have only one picture and I have re-done the job since it was taken. The new insulation looks a lot better and I will take some pictures of it and send it out to the net within a few days. I now have to return to my Santa Clause duties because I have 5 Grand Children and 11 Great Grand Children who have great expectations. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU GUYS Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hays" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts & Latch > > Bob, > > I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of us who'd appreciate more info > and pictures of your canopy latch. I, for one, am starting the > fuselage and would rather do things the best way from the beginning > instead of modifying later. > > Al, > Zenvair 601XL > Gore VA > > On Dec 23, 2007, at 11:18 AM, robert stone wrote: > >> Ed, >> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely >> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by >> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. >> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated >> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a >> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have >> had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If >> any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it >> scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new >> latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon >> request. >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:55 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I have just addressed this topic in an e-mail to the net. More information to follow. Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Southern Reflections To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am thinking about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack to stop real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks Joe N101HD XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Ed, What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I have had no problems with my canopy since making these two changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and an explanation upon request. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) I think something important has been left out of the discussion regarding the strength of the gas charged struts or their loss of strength over time. The geometry of the design for their installation is such that the strut will only exert its rated force at the point when the canopy is almost closed (the strut is fully compressed or nearly so). Not coincidentally, that is also the point at which the canopy rail and strut bracket have the best mechanical advantage in compressing the strut. In other words, the only time the struts exert their full rated force, be that 40# or 60# or whatever, is right when the full weight of the canopy is helping to push down vertically with its greatest force and at it greatest leverage advantage. The struts' force at that point is also linear (or nearly so) along the long axis of the canopy rail so bending the rail to overcome that force is a very remote possibility. Conversely, the point at which the force of the strut on the rail is lateral and at its greatest mechanical advantage against the canopy rail is when the canopy is fully open and the first bit of closing effort is made. If you test a new 40# stut versus a new 60# strut on a scale in the first inch or so of compression you will find that the difference is not the nominal 20# but only a fraction of that difference in force. The full 20# difference won't be in play until you have almost closed the canopy and at that point the mechanical advantage of the strut is so severely diminished that the extra force required to finish closing the canopy will be almost unmeasurable. I believe it is safe to use whichever strength of strut you find necessary to prevent the canopy weight and/or a gust of wind from slamming it down. Having the canopy go throught that event will very likely cause injury to one of us or at the very least to the canopy itself. If it takes a couple of extra pounds of force at the open position to accomplish that margin of safety, I'm okay with that. I received the 40# struts with my kit and I just bought a pair of 60# struts from McMaster-Carr. Not a very big investment to secure the option to use them if and when I deem it necessary. My installation was such that they can easily be changed at any point I need to. The down side is that if I store them as backups, they will certainly lose strength by the time I need them. That may actually work to my advantage in that I may put them into service as 50# or maybe even 40# struts if and when I need them. The incident reports regarding the 601XL canopy popping open in flight are all in agreement that the canopy will only open a few inches at most before the slipstream pressure prevents further opening. The reports also agree that the aerodynamic lift (or some other unknown force) effectively prevents closing it fully once it has lifted even that small amount. That makes it clear that the "popping open" sort of incident will not be affected one way or the other by the change of strut pressure. Bottom line: (A) make damn sure you have the canopy securely closed as a part of your run-up checklist and use it. And (B) use whatever strut strength is required to make reasonably sure that your canopy won't slam down unexpectedly. Sound reasonable? Merry Christmas all, Dred href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:08 PM PST US From: "Andrew Ackland" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three drawings. Andy Ackland 601HD (60% done) in the UK Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52 Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views. Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Corvair types' > > Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop. > > Merry Christmas > > Jay in Dallas -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:16 PM PST US From: "Andrew Ackland" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view OOPS, it should have been third ANGLE PROJECTION drawing. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Ackland Sent: 23 December 2007 21:27 Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three drawings. Andy Ackland 601HD (60% done) in the UK Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52 Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views. Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Corvair types' > > Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop. > > Merry Christmas > > Jay in Dallas -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:04 PM PST US From: "Mack Kreizenbeck" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective Ladies and Gentlemen: Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a minimal amount of time! Mack 601XL ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:43 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) Great idea Larry,Abetter mouse trap....Merry Xmas. Joe N101HDXL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) > > Joe, > I use a 1/16th x .75 nylon strap with plastic buckles to aluminum loops > center of the rear bow to one between the seat backs. It works fine, and > it doesn't have > the hard shock value of a chain if it gets caught in a breeze. It's > adjustable and doesn't get in the way up or down and doesn't weigh > anything. > see links, > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg > I have had the canopy act as a sail with me setting on the wing and carry > me slowly across the apron a > couple of times until it was lowered, so it's durable > . > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > Southern Reflections wrote: >> Bob, I've got a cross member across the rear of my canopy,I'am thinking >> about a light chain with a snap on it ,with about 2" of slack to stop >> real radical pop open . Would like to see your set up Thanks Joe >> N101HD XL/RAM >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* robert stone >> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:18 AM >> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Gas Struts (Springs) >> >> Ed, >> What you say below makes much sense to me. I completely >> eliminated the problem of the canopy slamming shut by it's self by >> installing the 60# struts and the system works fine now. >> I had the canopy pop open in flight twice and so eliminated >> the Zenith design and installed my own, the same one I used on a >> KR-2 that I built some years ago. Its a latch I can see and I >> have had no problems with my canopy since making these two >> changes. If any of you guys have had a canopy pop open in flight >> you know it scares the hell out of you and if you would like to >> see my new latching system, I will furnish pictures and >> an explanation upon request. >> > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:25 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view Picky, picky. The fourth view is the fuselage without the wings so one could use that drawing for body paint schemes. It is still only a three VIEW drawing. Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630N "Gig Giacona" wrote: > >I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views. > > >Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: >> Corvair types' >> >> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop. >> >> Merry Christmas >> >> Jay in Dallas > > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865 > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:39 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Three view In the US, the technical term for a drawing that shows top, side and front is called a three view drawing. Comes from doing this for 45 years. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Andrew Ackland" wrote: > >It is a third degree projection drawing (technical drawing term), not three >drawings. > >Andy Ackland >601HD (60% done) in the UK > >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona >Sent: 23 December 2007 20:52 >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Three view > > >I know in Texas you do everything bigger but I count 4 views. > > >Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: >> Corvair types' >> >> Here is a three view drawing of an XL with WW cowling and nose bowl, Van's >spinner and 66" Warp Drive prop. >> >> Merry Christmas >> >> Jay in Dallas > > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153865#153865 > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:22 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective Hi Mack, If, indeed, you experience control flutter, the only way to stop it is to immediately pull up and reduce airspeed. If you survive that (which is unlikely) then you should land quickly and do a thorough inspection of the damaged area. However, I don't think this is a problem with any of the Heintz designs. The control structures are very rigid and don't lend themselves to flutter. Also, this is a problem which usually shows up on high speed airplanes at speeds way beyond those achievable in our planes. The problem which I think is a remote possibility is some sort of resonant vibration or oscillation that could occur under some condition not normally experienced in flight. This is what happened to destroy many early models of the Lockheed Electra that broke apart in flight. There was a resonant condition that came up with the fuselage that was forever fixed with a small design change. Unlike control flutter, there is no obvious action to take if this occurs to you in flight. Perhaps a change in flight conditions by a rapid change in attitude or speed might help. There is one report I remember of an XL pilot who flew over a power plant and experienced a loud vibration which he thought was in the wings. He took some drastic action and the vibration stopped. I don't think there was any obvious damage from this incident. This is all very mysterious to me, and I don't know of any way to prove there is or is not a problem with the design. As I posted earlier, I added gussets at the top end of the wing attach uprights in a fashion similar to the gussets on the main landing gear uprights. This change was approved by ZAC without them saying it would help but they did say it wouldn't hurt anything. I did it with the idea of stiffening the fuselage in the wing attachment area. Paul XL fuselage At 02:08 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote: > >Ladies and Gentlemen: >Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this >phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a >minimal amount of time! >Mack >601XL ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Charles F. Long Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Low Cost Steering Boot design for 601 http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@tds.net.12.23.2007/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Charles F. Long Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Low Cost Steering Boot design for 601 http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@tds.net.12.23.2007/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:05 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Metric W & B I've converted the spreadsheet and sent it to Darryl. Thanks to (I believe) Gary Ray for the original spreadsheet. I've also tried to send it as an attachment to the list and had it disappear (twice). That's odd because Darryl was able to post the original on the list. Maybe it is because I placed it in a zip file and Matt's virus checker doesn't like it? I've sent a query to Matt. In the meantime if you would like a copy e-mail me direct and I'll send you a copy (with a whole lot of disclaimers). "craig at craigandjean dot com" BTW: it looks like attachments are not archived forever on the list. If you look at old messages that had attachments the attachment is no longer present. So if what you are sending has lasting value send it to Matt for posting to the file archive: www.matronics.com/photoshare After some peer review I'll send the metric W&B spreadsheet to www.ch601.org for upload. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Legg Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Metric W & B Thanks Craig, I have added the file as an attachment. Its well done and I got it off www.ch601.org. Thanks for your time on this. Darryl do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153588#153588 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_xl_wb_final_139.xls ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing From: "kmccune" Wow so the 701 must be a double sheet of plywood :D I didn't check the price.I think the ratio is like 3:1 length to width for fairings so they are a little short.But they have to be better then round tube. Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153897#153897 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - From: "Gig Giacona" The answer is almost always reduce speed. aprazer wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen: > Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this > phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a > minimal amount of time! > Mack > 601XL -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153899#153899 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:19 PM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failur... aprazer wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen: > Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this > phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a > minimal amount of time! > Mack > 601XL Instantly changing the load on the control surface will most likely help a lot in this situation. /and as stated before, slow down. Lynn Nelsen 601 HD Frostproof Florida **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:02 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual Geez,, Your building a plane worth several tens of thousands of dollars. How much can Zenith charge for a CD?. Maybe 50 bucks. If you really hav e a legitimate set of plans I am sure ZAC will support your effort in bu ilding. If you have a set of boot leg plans then you are on your own. Merry Christmas and do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Craig Payne" wrote: > Remember that the in PDF files you can download from the web site the photographs are of much lower resolution than the version on the photo assembly guide CD. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Latim er Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:45 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Construction Manual If you go to the Zenith website and sign up as a builder, you will get a n ID and password that allows you into the builder section of the website. I n that section you can retrieve the builder's manual in electronic form. Jerry 601 HDS rotax 912 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Construction Manual I have a 601 HDS and would like to get a copy of the construction manual in PDF format is someone would be so kind as to email one to me. I have a legitimate copy of the plans and serialized construction manual so I'm not trying to cheat Zenith, I would just like an electronic copy to let me search for key words and print specific pages I want to take to the s hop with me so as to keep my original construction manual in good condition. I don't know if a PDF version of the HD/HDS manual was ever produced so If I could get one for the XL that would be good too. Thanks and I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153812#153812 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4td6x39zMIzir93p7LG t3k6JK9PNRJE69DQdnoUG94WsRShM/ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:06 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing I can't remember where I saw it but one of the ultralight sites sells PVC streamline fairings that slip over the structural tube. The only downside - besides the weight - is that you can no longer see the structural tube for visual inspection without removing the fairing. You could also make a single ply glass/epoxy 3:1 teardrop fairing that would overlap and tape in place so that it could be easily removed for periodic inspection. I was thinking of using myself but it is a little pricey. Another 701 builder told me he thought there was a tremendous amount of drag created in the struts and anything to help would be a benefit. But I think there over $100 for like 6 ft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kmccune" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamlined Tubing > > Has anyone tried the "Streamlined Tubing" from aircraft Spruce for the > wing struts? A little stream lining and no fairing to deal with. > > Kevin > > -------- > Kevin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153805#153805 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_spruce_stream_line_tubing_990.jpg > > > Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A glitch on the (email) list (Was "A Practical Electric Airp From: "PatrickW" Gig Giacona wrote: > Did anyone that was at OSH even see that cool little electric motor spin a prop? No, I did not see them demonstrate the engine, nor do I know know if it has run. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153913#153913 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:34 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective not to be too picky Paul, but I thought I recalled the issue with the early Electras to be a engine/nacelle whirl mode pnenomenon? Hi Mack, If, indeed, you experience control flutter, the only way to stop it is to immediately pull up and reduce airspeed. If you survive that (which is unlikely) then you should land quickly and do a thorough inspection of the damaged area. However, I don't think this is a problem with any of the Heintz designs. The control structures are very rigid and don't lend themselves to flutter. Also, this is a problem which usually shows up on high speed airplanes at speeds way beyond those achievable in our planes. The problem which I think is a remote possibility is some sort of resonant vibration or oscillation that could occur under some condition not normally experienced in flight. This is what happened to destroy many early models of the Lockheed Electra that broke apart in flight. There was a resonant condition that came up with the fuselage that was forever fixed with a small design change. Unlike control flutter, there is no obvious action to take if this occurs to you in flight. Perhaps a change in flight conditions by a rapid change in attitude or speed might help. There is one report I remember of an XL pilot who flew over a power plant and experienced a loud vibration which he thought was in the wings. He took some drastic action and the vibration stopped. I don't think there was any obvious damage from this incident. This is all very mysterious to me, and I don't know of any way to prove there is or is not a problem with the design. As I posted earlier, I added gussets at the top end of the wing attach uprights in a fashion similar to the gussets on the main landing gear uprights. This change was approved by ZAC without them saying it would help but they did say it wouldn't hurt anything. I did it with the idea of stiffening the fuselage in the wing attachment area. Paul XL fuselage At 02:08 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote: > >Ladies and Gentlemen: >Wing flutter, aileron flutter or whatever -- if any of us experiences this >phenomenon, what is the corrective action? I understand that we have a >minimal amount of time! >Mack >601XL Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:55 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601Wing Failures - a different perspective601Wing Failures - a different perspective Hi David, You could well be right. However, the story I heard was it was a resonance problem in the long fuselage tube. It would break in half when the resonance struck and the plane would suddenly be two halves of a plane. After receiving your message, I decided to do some research on the net to see what I could find on the Electra structural failures. It sounds like you are at least as close to the real truth as I was. Here is a quote from one of the articles I found: "In two of the crashes, in-flight structural failures caused by weakness of the engine mount that led to excessive vibration had torn the aircraft apart. " I also found a number of other accident related articles which seemed to indicate all sorts of other problems like how the cargo was loaded. Similarly, I remember years of explanations of all the V-tail Bonanza break-ups being explained by poor pilot skill. That worked well since none of the pilots survived to defend themselves. Then, after they issued a design change strengthening the rear fuselage the break-ups stopped. I guess it is really hard to determine exactly why a plane breaks up in flight and there may be many false reports before the final truth is reached - if it ever is. Indeed there may be many reasons that all work together to end the plane's flight. Paul XL fuselage At 04:52 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote: >not to be too picky Paul, but I thought I recalled the issue with >the early Electras to be a engine/nacelle whirl mode pnenomenon? ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:31 PM PST US From: DRAGONFUEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing or Flap or Aileron Flutter Whenever an airplane goes out of control with flutter, oscillations, porpoise, or whatever you call it, the rapid shift in forces puts great stress on the airframe. The up cycle puts excess positive G forces on the frame and the down cycle puts excess negative G forces on the frame, control surface, flap, elevator, wing or whatever. These excess forces quickly exceed the design limits of the airframe, resulting in structural failure -- it happens pretty fast. The immediate actions needed are to reduce airspeed with power and attitude change. This has traditionally meant to pull up to slow down, along with reduction of power. This is why some folks shook their heads when the 601 pilot in the power plant incident went into a dive rather than pull up. But he got away with it. He probably stumbled into what military fighter pilots have been doing for several generations. When an airplane gets into an out of control maneuver: a PIO (pilot induced oscillation), a JC maneuver (named for the person whose birth we are celebrating), an unwinnable dogfight in combat, the correct maneuver is often to unload the G forces on the plane and fly out of the maneuver at zero G's. That is to push forward slightly until the weight of your body on the seat is zero, not any positive force and no negative force, equilibrium. This will eliminate overstress on the airframe. It may not break the oscillations immediately, so it is vital not the chase the oscillations (you can never catch up with them and will almost certainly exert excessive forces in the wrong direction), but to continue to hold slightly forward elevator forces to keep your butt light on the seat. Postural sense they call it. Once the plane is back under full control, you can apply power to accelerate out of any stall, or reduce power to avoid an overspeed dive, just don't re-enter another out of control situation. At zero G's an airplane can accelerate rapidly -- but you are exchanging altitude for airspeed. Since there is no G force on the plane, it has little drag, and engine power seems to be multiplied. Don't overspeed engine, prop, or aircraft limits. Get the plane on the ground ASAP and check it out for damage. Land at the nearest field, you may have another failure you are not aware of. Cheers, Bob Archibald Dragonfly Aviation CH601XL/Lyc/Dynons **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:12 PM PST US From: "Joe Spencer" Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce Streamline Tubing Yes the round struts do create a heckuva lot of drag... the round cross section is one of the highest drag shapes out there or so the experts say. I just put streamline cuffs(homemade aluminum) over my round struts and the difference in cruise speed is at least 5 mph. There is noticeable inprovement in climb and glide also, as well as significant buffet/vibration reduction, not to mention fuel burn. Try Mrs. Carlson, Palestine OH(google) for streamline aluminum strut material. It's worth the cost/trouble. Joe ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:10 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly Kevin, The 701 seems to glide OK above 50+MPH but under 40MPH the sink rate seems high. My instructor told me to keep it to 60-MPH on approach, just throttle down and lift the nose just before touch-down, and add a little power if it sinks too fast until I got more familiar with the plane's characteristics. Does anyone have data on the 701's glide ratio and best glide speed with a 100-HP Rotax 912 lightly and heavily loaded? Regards and happy Holiday, Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Art Olechowski > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:38 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly > > --> > > Les, > I noticed on the 701 demo flight that Roger kept milking the > throttle on approach to keep the sink rate down and probably > to clear the carbs. One thing is for sure the 701 does not > have a glide ratio like a C152. Good to hear your first > flight went well. Happy Flying. > > Art/701/Scratch/Procuring Materials and Tools > --- Les Goldner wrote: > > > --> > > > > Kevin, > > I will try to take some pics of the enhancements I made and > send them > > out in a week or two to those who request them. > > I flew the plane today for the first time. I was very lucky > that Paul > > Reinders (both a Z-701 and Boeing 747 CFI who lives here in N. > > California during the winter) agreed to go on the plane's maiden > > flight and show me how to fly it. Within an hour and a half > I was able > > to solo... Still need a lot of practice since this plane flies very > > differently than my "old" Challenger II UL. > > The plane performed as advertised. It tracked and stalled well so I > > think I a "keeper". I was warned not to let the speed get to low > > (below 40-MPH) on final without applying power to slow the > sink rate. > > Regards and happy holiday, > > Les > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf > Of kmccune > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:19 AM > > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another 701 is ready to fly > > > > > > > > > Congratulations! > > > > > > Re:(like a removable panel, cargo and under-tail access > doors, much > > > lighter mailbox type door locks, and an internal BRS > chute) I'd like > > > to see pics of the plane and the above, if you can get > the pics to > > > work. > > > > > > -------- > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153477#153477 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:39 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD plans new 2006 unused I am looking to trade my new 601HD plans for some unused 701 plans. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.