---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/28/07: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:24 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual Controls. ref Michael Rand. (Richard Cottingham) 2. 03:39 AM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (kmccune) 3. 07:37 AM - Quick Question (James Sagerser) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (Carl) 5. 09:05 AM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (special4) 6. 09:36 AM - Re: Quick Question (Gary Ray) 7. 11:08 AM - Re: Quick Question (LRM) 8. 12:24 PM - Re: Quick Question (Tim Juhl) 9. 12:30 PM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? () 10. 01:02 PM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (Joemotis@aol.com) 11. 02:04 PM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (Joemotis@aol.com) 12. 03:23 PM - Re: Quick Question (steve) 13. 03:32 PM - Beginner (THOMAS SMALL) 14. 07:51 PM - Looking to trade unused 601 plans () 15. 07:51 PM - Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (LRM) 16. 08:08 PM - landing gear fabrication (raymondj) 17. 08:27 PM - Re: Quick Question (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:35 AM PST US From: "Richard Cottingham" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual Controls. ref Michael Rand. Geoff There is some confusion with my email address mrd@wn.com.au Thanks and regards do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Heap" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:16 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual Controls. ref Michael Rand. > > Richard. I get all your emails but you don't get any of my replies. I > suggest you get a friend to email me for the info......Geoff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154490#154490 > > > -- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? From: "kmccune" Safe is a pretty relative term, I like your idea, but I don't know that I'd fly in it. Try these guys, it a forum for converting motorcycle engines, its the closest info that I have. The air-trike guys mentioned are also at this forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moto-air/ Kevin -------- Kevin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154686#154686 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Quick Question From: James Sagerser Does anyone know if a regular (whiskey) compass is required equipment if your aircraft has an EFIS system like the Enigma? Also. Can anyone recommend a free site to post pictures of our projects besides "MySpace" (received 3 special solicitations in the first hour!). Thanks in advance, Jim ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:15 AM PST US From: "Carl" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Hi Randy. Two 701 builders here in Ottawa Cda are using the 4 cyl 4 cycle Yamaha engine. One is out of a jet ski the other from a snowmobile. Someone in Montreal built redrives for them. One a/c is due for completion in 2008 and the engine has started ground testing. The idea of using the Rotax gearbox is good in terms of reducing the risk of using a combination of non aviation engine and newly designed redrive. In terms of gear ratio, I believe they plan to run the Yamahas at about the same RPM as the Rotax 912 (5800 to 6000). One limitation on the basic 701 design to consider is 200 lbs and 100 HP max for the engine. As far as thrust loads on the engine and the mount I would also recommend including gyroscopic loads generated by the engine, redrive and prop. My brother, a snowmobile enthusiast, told me these engines have a good reputation and Yamaha has released a three cylinder version that may even be lighter and could also be a good match for the 701. Carl/701/912 ----- Original Message ----- From: "AB_Summit" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe > > Hi everyone, > > (This is a cross posting from homebuiltairplanes.com, but I thought I > would post it here as well to get input from you guys.) > > I've got an idea for a new engine redrive combination that as far as I > know, no one has tried before. This is all hypothetical for the time being > as I don't even have a plane to put it on, but I'm thinking of building a > Zenith STOL CH-701 and I think this would be a good engine for that plane. > I am not an engineer, or even a pilot yet, but I do enjoy building, > fabricating, working with metalt, etc. > > My idea is to take a Yamaha four stroke, four cylinder snowmobile engine > and adapt a Rotax gearbox redrive to it. This would be for my own personal > use only and not for any commercial purpose. The engine is just under > 1000cc's and produces 140HP in the carbureted version and 150HP in the EFI > version, but I would derate it for aircraft use. The weight of the engine > is 118 lbs. This engine is based on the R1 motorcycle engine, but doesn't > have a gearbox like the motorcycle engine does. This engine has proven > durable in snowmobiles that have been turbocharged and are making 300HP+. > > My method of adapting the redrive to the engine would be to machine an > adapter ring and coupling. There is a ring of 6 bolts around the output > shaft of the engine, I could make a plate that attaches to the engine > using these 6 bolts and then drill and tap the plate to accept the Rotax > gearbox bolt pattern and bolt the gearbox to the plate. Then I would need > to do some machining to get the shafts couple properly. > > As I said in the title, my questions are would this be feasible, and would > this be safe? My first thought is that if this was easy to do, somebody > would have already done it, and since I haven't seen this combination > before it makes me wonder if there is some problem I haven't thought of. > > To me the main concerns are whether the joint between the engine and > gearbox would be substantial enough to handle the load put on it by the > thrust of the propeller, and whether there would be any torsional > vibration concerns that would damage the engine or the gearbox. There is a > rubber cushion built into the Rotax C gearbox that would help absorb some > of the vibration, and there is also a clutch that can be installed into it > to uncouple the gearbox from the engine at low RPM's. I could also install > some external bracing between the engine and gearbox to take some of the > thrust loads. Another concern is designing an engine mount that is safe > and will take all the loads put on it. > > If I were to go ahead with this, how could I ensure that my installation > is safe? Should it be inspected by a mechanical engineer? I imagine having > it looked at by an EAA tech counsellor would be a good idea as well. > > Are there any risks that I haven't though of that I should be aware of? > I'd like to hear your thoughts as to whether this is doable and safe. > Would I be better off going with a more proven conversion like the > Suzuki/Geo or go with the 912? > > Thanks > Randy > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154524#154524 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? From: "special4" Hi Randy, I like your idea of the fuel injected yamaha....but as with all conversions it might be a lot of work/time. As for the reduction drive... I would not go with a Rotax as I think the power output of the yamaha is to high. As the prices for the Rotax/Jabiru/Continental and Lycomings are "sky high" (and climbing), I am planning to use a conversion engine... Peter 601XL do not archive -------- Sportsflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154742#154742 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:25 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question James If you have an XP computer or later you can go to Google and download 'Picassa' and use their web space to post your pics. The Picassa program works well and updoads easily and it is a free service. Gary Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Sagerser" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Quick Question > > Does anyone know if a regular (whiskey) compass is required equipment if > your aircraft has an EFIS system like the Enigma? > > Also. Can anyone recommend a free site to post pictures of our projects > besides "MySpace" (received 3 special solicitations in the first hour!). > > Thanks in advance, Jim > > > -- 5:26 PM > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:38 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question The answer to your question is yes. However, be careful. I never heard of it before, so I spent the last half hour researching it. Most comments were positive, but several were negative. Not about how the software functioned, it seems great, but what it did to your computer, like loading it up with .inf files, etc. I don't know man, you do what you want, but I spent many years the computer business and I spent a lot of time getting and keeping my computers clean and running fast. This computer stuff is a nasty game, even when you go buy name brand software, they load you up with useless junk, spyware, adware. It all slows down your computer, runs little programs in background. They change your home page, etc., it never stops. None of this "free" downloads is really free. Not really airplane stuff, is it? But, I think it's important. LRM www.skyhawg.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Ray" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question > > James > > If you have an XP computer or later you can go to Google and download > 'Picassa' and use their web space to post your pics. The Picassa program > works well and updoads easily and it is a free service. > > Gary Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Sagerser" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:36 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Quick Question > > >> >> Does anyone know if a regular (whiskey) compass is required equipment if >> your aircraft has an EFIS system like the Enigma? >> >> Also. Can anyone recommend a free site to post pictures of our projects >> besides "MySpace" (received 3 special solicitations in the first hour!). >> >> Thanks in advance, Jim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- > 5:26 PM >> >> > > > -- > 12/27/2007 1:34 PM > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Quick Question From: "Tim Juhl" If you just want to post a few pix try http://photobucket.com/ If you want to keep a builders log with hundreds of photos you may need to rent space on a server and set up a web page. I believe the EFIS meets the compass (magnetic direction indicating device requirements) but if you look back over the last couple of months I believe there was some discussion on the subject. You might have a little trouble convincing a inspector who was not too up on things. That said...one advantage of a whiskey compass is it doesn't fail when the electrical system goes down. You want some kind of redundancy. I like my battery powered garmin 296. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154774#154774 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:17 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Every "firster" who ever tried a new non-aircraft component asked the same question--"is it feasible, is it safe?" If not for the "firsters" , we'd still be using nothing but Lyconentals, and wishing somebody wo uld come up with something different, and cheaper. It's both feasible and safe , when you figure out how to make it so. That's what experime ntal arcraft is all about. Take a good look at the engine. Find somebo dy who can show you the guts of the redrive. Figure out what it will t ake to join the two units. Figure out how strong it will have to be. Y ou'll probably have to build one to determine if there are any harmoni c issues you need to deal with. And on, and on. Then you'll need to fi gure out exactly where, in relation to the fire wall, it needs to be, for weight and balance purposes. Then, figure out what kind, and size, of prop it works best with. And, after having figured out a thousand ways it didn't work, you'll either give up, or have developed one swee t FWF that people will salivate over, and pound down your door to get either the plans, the parts, or the whole thing from you. Do it or not ? Your decision. That's experimental aviation. On a smaller scale, we all do a little something outside of the box, be it different bracing, different turnbuckles, different fuel tanks, etc. Personally, I'd go for it, and see what happens. At worst, you'll make junk out of an eng ine and redrive, and waste some money at the machine shop.=0A=0A Paul Rodriguez=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: AB_Su mmit =0A To: zenith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent: Thursday, December 27, 20 07 11:24 AM=0A Subject: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - i s it feasible, is it safe?=0A=0A=0A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AB_Summit" >=0A =0A Hi everyone,=0A=0A (This is a cross posting from homebu iltairplanes.com, but I thought I would post it here as well to get in put from you guys.)=0A=0A I've got an idea for a new engine red rive combination that as far as I know, no one has tried before. This is all hypothetical for the time being as I don't even have a plane to put it on, but I'm thinking of building a Zenith STOL CH-701 and I th ink this would be a good engine for that plane. I am not an engineer, or even a pilot yet, but I do enjoy building, fabricating, working wit h metal, etc.=0A=0A My idea is to take a Yamaha four stroke, fo ur cylinder snowmobile engine and adapt a Rotax gearbox redrive to it. This would be for my own personal use only and not for any commercial purpose. The engine is just under 1000cc's and produces 140HP in the carbureted version and 150HP in the EFI version, but I would derate it for aircraft use. The weight of the engine is 118 lbs. This engine is based on the R1 motorcycle engine, but doesn't have a gearbox like th e motorcycle engine does. This engine has proven durable in snowmobile s that have been turbocharged and are making 300HP+.=0A=0A My m ethod of adapting the redrive to the engine would be to machine an ada pter ring and coupling. There is a ring of 6 bolts around the output s haft of the engine, I could make a plate that attaches to the engine u sing these 6 bolts and then drill and tap the plate to accept the Rota x gearbox bolt pattern and bolt the gearbox to the plate. Then I would need to do some machining to get the shafts couple properly.=0A =0A As I said in the title, my questions are would this be feasible, and would this be safe? My first thought is that if this was easy to d o, somebody would have already done it, and since I haven't seen this combination before it makes me wonder if there is some problem I haven 't thought of.=0A=0A To me the main concerns are whether the jo int between the engine and gearbox would be substantial enough to hand le the load put on it by the thrust of the propeller, and whether ther e would be any torsional vibration concerns that would damage the engi ne or the gearbox. There is a rubber cushion built into the Rotax C ge arbox that would help absorb some of the vibration, and there is also a clutch that can be installed into it to uncouple the gearbox from th e engine at low RPM's. I could also install some external bracing betw een the engine and gearbox to take some of the thrust loads. Another c oncern is designing an engine mount that is safe and will take all the loads put on it.=0A=0A If I were to go ahead with this, how co uld I ensure that my installation is safe? Should it be inspected by a mechanical engineer? I imagine having it looked at by an EAA tech cou nsellor would be a good idea as well.=0A=0A Are there any risks that I haven't though of that I should be aware of? I'd like to hear your thoughts as to whether this is doable and safe. Would I be better off going with a more proven conversion like the Suzuki/Geo or go wit h the 912?=0A=0A Thanks=0A Randy=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics com/viewtopic.php?p=154524#154524=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ======================= ronics.com/contribution=0A ======================= ====================== ======================= ======================= ======================= ======================= ====0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:05 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:30 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Excuse me list?!?! Joe Motis Do not archive (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:12 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question Thats a good question. I asked the EAA Tech. guys and they said no, all I needed was the GPS or other device. HOWEVER the FAA says " A Magnetic Direction Device". SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Sagerser" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:36 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Quick Question > > Does anyone know if a regular (whiskey) compass is required equipment if > your aircraft has an EFIS system like the Enigma? > > Also. Can anyone recommend a free site to post pictures of our projects > besides "MySpace" (received 3 special solicitations in the first hour!). > > Thanks in advance, Jim > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:01 PM PST US From: "THOMAS SMALL" Subject: Zenith-List: Beginner ...Are there any good books for advice like that for builders? Darrell, You now know more than you'll ever need about dl, especially since you're working from a kit and will rarely make a part requiring that knowledge. Still, it's good to know as much as you can; who knows, you may decide to plans-built the rest. You've gotten a lot of good info. To it I would add: Buy the Tony Bingellis books from the EAA, particually the first two... If not already a member of EAA become one... Find an active EAA chapter near you - one with builders, not coffee sippers and pizza eaters, who are there only to socialize. The social aspect of building, the hangar flying, is important, but you need folks in the know with their hands in or on a project... If you haven't already done so contact a local FSDO or MIDO office and tell them you're building. Ask all pertinent paperwork be sent your way, especially AC20-27F and the forms that will be needed for final steps in project. As you have a reserved tail number then maybe this is done... http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/ http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/locate_office/mido/ If you're an EAA member you can find a wealth of info from general to detailed at http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/index.html I'll sendyou some info on nutplates off-list. Good luck jeff ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:35 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Looking to trade unused 601 plans I am looking to trade my new unused 601HD plans for some 701 plans. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:35 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Well said. If is wasn't for people like "some of us" we would be rolling rocks and picking our rears. Just test, test and test again and when you think you got it right, test it again. On the ground, that is. LRM, www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Every "firster" who ever tried a new non-aircraft component asked the same question--"is it feasible, is it safe?" If not for the "firsters", we'd still be using nothing but Lyconentals, and wishing somebody would come up with something different, and cheaper. It's both feasible and safe , when you figure out how to make it so. That's what experimental arcraft is all about. Take a good look at the engine. Find somebody who can show you the guts of the redrive. Figure out what it will take to join the two units. Figure out how strong it will have to be. You'll probably have to build one to determine if there are any harmonic issues you need to deal with. And on, and on. Then you'll need to figure out exactly where, in relation to the fire wall, it needs to be, for weight and balance purposes. Then, figure out what kind, and size, of prop it works best with. And, after having figured out a thousand ways it didn't work, you'll either give up, or have developed one sweet FWF that people will salivate over, and pound down your door to get either the plans, the parts, or the whole thing from you. Do it or not? Your decision. That's experimental aviation. On a smaller scale, we all do a little something outside of the box, be it different bracing, different turnbuckles, different fuel tanks, etc. Personally, I'd go for it, and see what happens. At worst, you'll make junk out of an engine and redrive, and waste some money at the machine shop. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: AB_Summit To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:24 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe? Hi everyone, (This is a cross posting from homebuiltairplanes.com, but I thought I would post it here as well to get input from you guys.) I've got an idea for a new engine redrive combination that as far as I know, no one has tried before. This is all hypothetical for the time being as I don't even have a plane to put it on, but I'm thinking of building a Zenith STOL CH-701 and I think this would be a good engine for that plane. I am not an engineer, or even a pilot yet, but I do enjoy building, fabricating, working with metal, etc. My idea is to take a Yamaha four stroke, four cylinder snowmobile engine and adapt a Rotax gearbox redrive to it. This would be for my own personal use only and not for any commercial purpose. The engine is just under 1000cc's and produces 140HP in the carbureted version and 150HP in the EFI version, but I would derate it for aircraft use. The weight of the engine is 118 lbs. This engine is based on the R1 motorcycle engine, but doesn't have a gearbox like the motorcycle engine does. This engine has proven durable in snowmobiles that have been turbocharged and are making 300HP+. My method of adapting the redrive to the engine would be to machine an adapter ring and coupling. There is a ring of 6 bolts around the output shaft of the engine, I could make a plate that attaches to the engine using these 6 bolts and then drill and tap the plate to accept the Rotax gearbox bolt pattern and bolt the gearbox to the plate. Then I would need to do some machining to get the shafts couple properly. As I said in the title, my questions are would this be feasible, and would this be safe? My first thought is that if this was easy to do, somebody would have already done it, and since I haven't seen this combination before it makes me wonder if there is some problem I haven't thought of. To me the main concerns are whether the joint between the engine and gearbox would be substantial enough to handle the load put on it by the thrust of the propeller, and whether there would be any torsional vibration concerns that would damage the engine or the gearbox. There is a rubber cushion built into the Rotax C gearbox that would help absorb some of the vibration, and there is also a clutch that can be installed into it to uncouple the gearbox from the engine at low RPM's. I could also install some external bracing between the engine and gearbox to take some of the thrust loads. Another concern is designing an engine mount that is safe and will take all the loads put on it. If I were to go ahead with this, how could I ensure that my installation is safe? Should it be inspected by a mechanical engineer? I imagine having it looked at by an EAA tech counsellor would be a good idea as well. Are there any risks that I haven't though of that I should be aware of? I'd like to hear your thoughts as to whether this is doable and safe. Would I be better off going with a more proven conversion like the Suzuki/Geo or go with the 912? Thanks Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154524======= ============== (And Get p; the Contribution link below to find out more abouthttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith========= ==============p; &nt; http://forums.matronics.com =========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- 12/28/2007 11:51 AM ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:10 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: Zenith-List: landing gear fabrication Greetings listers, I remember seeing a thread about fabricating the spring gear for the 701/801 in the past but I couldn't find it in the archives. I'd appreciate any help finding any info. on the topic. Thanks, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:31 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quick Question I believe the requirement for a magnetic direction device applies only to aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates unless you intend to fly IFR. In that case your op-lims specify that you must meet the same minimum equipment list as specified for standard aircraft. However, the compass does not need to be a TSO'd aircraft compass. I have a $10 compass from Walmart in my plane and it works just fine. steve wrote: > > Thats a good question. > I asked the EAA Tech. guys and they said no, all I needed was the GPS or > other device. HOWEVER the FAA says " A Magnetic Direction Device". > SW > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Sagerser" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:36 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Quick Question > > >> >> Does anyone know if a regular (whiskey) compass is required equipment if >> your aircraft has an EFIS system like the Enigma? >> >> Also. Can anyone recommend a free site to post pictures of our projects >> besides "MySpace" (received 3 special solicitations in the first hour!). >> >> Thanks in advance, Jim >> >> -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.