Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 AM - Re: Adding extra rib to rudder (THOMAS SMALL)
2. 03:24 AM - Re: Adding extra rib to rudder (David Downey)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: N701N Completed and Flying (n801bh@netzero.com)
4. 06:41 AM - Re: N701N Completed and Flying (dj45)
5. 08:16 AM - Re: Radio & Transponder Sale (Juan Vega)
6. 08:55 AM - Re: xxx N701N Completed and Flying (Tommy Walker)
7. 09:12 AM - Re: First Flight - N5SL (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons))
8. 11:17 AM - Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (DaveC)
9. 11:28 AM - 701 crash (Chuck Deiterich)
10. 11:49 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Gig Giacona)
11. 12:00 PM - Re: 701 crash (Gig Giacona)
12. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Larry H)
13. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: sealing fuel fittings (Gary Ray)
14. 01:12 PM - Re: Online built (countzero)
15. 01:38 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Jugle)
16. 02:31 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Gig Giacona)
17. 02:32 PM - Re: Online built (Gig Giacona)
18. 02:40 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (LarryMcFarland)
19. 02:51 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (DaveC)
20. 02:57 PM - Re: sealing fuel fittings (swater6)
21. 03:04 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Jugle)
22. 03:31 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (DaveC)
23. 03:33 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (kmccune)
24. 03:36 PM - Re: Adding extra rib to rudder (John Marzulli)
25. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Bryan Martin)
26. 03:58 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Jugle)
27. 04:36 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (John Marzulli)
28. 04:46 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (John Bolding)
29. 05:33 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Craig Payne)
30. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Larry H)
31. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Larry H)
32. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Larry H)
33. 06:38 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (ROBERT SCEPPA)
34. 07:04 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Ron Lendon)
35. 07:37 PM - 701 Wings Wanted (Stan Bearup)
36. 07:39 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Tim Juhl)
37. 07:50 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (PatrickW)
38. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Debo Cox)
39. 08:52 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (John Short)
40. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Craig Payne)
41. 09:15 PM - TD heel support (Brad Cohen)
42. 09:20 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Art Olechowski)
43. 09:25 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (videoflyer@aol.com)
44. 09:27 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (robert stone)
45. 09:55 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Craig Payne)
46. 10:50 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Adding extra rib to rudder |
do not archive
> Engineering is always about trade-offs.
On the Zenith Matronics list "engineering" is usually about b___s___.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Adding extra rib to rudder |
I like the idea of closing all those cavities to eliminate the bird nests that
seem to magically appear in them. That goes for strut tubes and lightening holes
in exposed ends of control surfaces as well.
Just my thoughts on this.. Why add extra weight when not needed? I cut off
the corners of every "L" piece to keep weight down. Rounded ends of
longerons and u/c slides etc.. I'm not smart enough to do the math to
decide if the drag reduction is more valuable than the extra weight.
Anybody out there..?
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: N701N Completed and Flying |
Congrats to you and safe flying....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Jeffrey A Beachy <beachyjeff@juno.com> wrote:
My Zenith CH701 received an FAA airworthiness certificate on December 17
, 2007 with first flight following on Christmas Day. I built N701N from
a Zenith complete airframe kit and a Skyshops firewall-forward kit. Engi
ne is a Rotax 912ULS with Woodcomp propeller; instruments are steam gaug
es with a Microair Comm and Transponder. I logged 2,560 hours of buildin
g over thirty-three months, including painting. This was my first airpla
ne project and I enjoyed the entire experience. The Zenith Matronics Lis
t was a great help in building my airplane. Special thanks to Larry Mart
in, Brian Unruh, Tommy Walker, Dirk Slabbert, Jerry Erickson, John Flavi
n and others on this list who were willing to share their experiences an
d recommendations. Now, if the never-ceasing winds around here will fina
lly die down, I'll be happy to get back to flying!
Jeff Beachy
Plain City, Ohio
N701N
_____________________________________________________________
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. C
lick now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4uA6cvpjw8KVr8aviVh
pNwDHWr431ErlUcQErAVFDfD0rDGC/
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: N701N Completed and Flying |
Jeff,
Congrats and have fun with your 40 hrs.
Nice looking panel too.
--------
Do not archive
Dan Stanton
N9801S
99.9% Done & Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156748#156748
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Radio & Transponder Sale |
THAT IS AN EXCELLENT PRICE. IF IT IS LESS THAN 3,000 FOR THE TWO, DEFINITELY
GREAT PRICE.
JUAN
-----Original Message-----
>From: Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com>
>Sent: Jan 7, 2008 6:13 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Radio & Transponder Sale
>
>Jabiru USA has several new Becker 4201 radios in stock for immediate sale at
>$950.00. Compare to Gulf Coast Avionics at $1270.00. Becker ATC 4401-175
>Transponders for sale at $1500.00. Compare at $1899.00. Several available.
>First with the cash gets them.
>
>
>
>Call 931-680-2800 or email frontdesk@usjabiru.com
>
>
>
>Pete Krotje
>
>Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: xxx N701N Completed and Flying |
Yes, I would like to hear your weights.
Our N8701 came in at 611 lbs with oil, water, no fuel.
Tommy
Time:
08:19:03 PM PST US
From:
"John Bolding" <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
Subject:
Re: N701N Completed and Flying
Jeff, please share your all up weight. Thanks John do
not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight - N5SL |
Congratulations Scott!
Great Job!
Soon I hope to joint the ranks of sitting on my fuselage making put-put noises
since I don't have an engine yet! I'll get there though!
Again, congratulations!
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
Message 8
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| Subject: | Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know
enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished
their pondering.
I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
Is it a pride thing?
A personal learning thing?
A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
Is it that much cheaper?
--------
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-701 wanna-be-soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
Message 9
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Copied from AvwebFlash:
"Robert Steinmetz, who was identified in the FAA's preliminary report as
a "sport pilot," crashed his "Garniss STOL 701" high-wing (experimental
aircraft are often registered by builder name followed by aircraft
model) into a field near his home on the outskirts of Las Cruces, N.M.,
Dec. 15, killing himself and leaving family members as witnesses.
Steinmetz had purchased the aircraft just two months prior to the
accident. AVweb was unable to find a record of Steinmetz in the FAA's
online airmen certification database and the aircraft's registration
status as of Friday was also unavailable. According to the report,
Steinmetz's daughters told the inspector that every time he flew, he
would "buzz" his house and "wig wag" his wings. On this particular
flight, he was wagging his wings when the left wing struck the ground
and the airplane cartwheeled. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed
at the time of the accident. No flight plan was filed."
Chuck D.
N701TX
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Money can be one of the big motivators and if you have to ask the question and
can afford to get the kit you probably should.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156778#156778
Message 11
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This has already been posted at least once and maybe twice.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156779#156779
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
If he should decide to scratch build, he is going to outlay some cash for the equipment
to bend and fabricate his parts. He needs to add this into his equation.
---------------------------------
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: sealing fuel fittings |
I used Sealube on my side mounted fuel sending units. It was effective for
over a year on 100LL but both sides began to drip after two weeks of
exposure to 93 autofuel. One tank had alchohol and the other did not. Both
appeared to affect the sealer.
Also I noticed that my fuel caps became very hard to open and has not been a
problem since return to 100LL only.
So if you plan to have the flex fuel option maybe a different sealer would
be better. It is a pain in the rear to reseal the senders after the wing is
closed up working thru the access panel and thru a rib cutout. I left a
sample of my DNA in there.
Gary Ray 601XL 60 Hr TT
davgray@sbcglobal.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "billmileski" <william.mileski@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 3:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: sealing fuel fittings
<william.mileski@gmail.com>
>
> Hmmm. Actually, looks like EZ Turn is about six bucks CHEAPER than the
Sealube I recommended.. I'd probably go with the EZ Turn :-)
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php
>
> Bill
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156574#156574
>
>
> --
3:52 PM
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Online built |
Hi Curt,
The camera is a Technika SH-340T and the freeware is JPGVideo from Ted Ferenc at www.ndrw.co.uk. To get the 6 secs time lapse I used a 555 microchip in a stripboard circuit similar to an auto windscreen wiper delay. I also wired the camera for mains power because the two AAA batteries last about 10 minutes.
It was a rough and ready way of getting what I wanted. For web streaming, video
conference, windows netmeeting and generally better quality video/pictures I
suggest going wireless as Craig pointed out.
Rob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156784#156784
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00342_690.jpg
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Simple, it's cheaper and being an ex-tradesman, I have the skills.
Sure you may spend plenty on tools and bits and pieces along the way, but spending
a few hundred here and there, with maybe a few thousand occasionally, as in
the sheet purchase, is more realistic for me than spending 15000 or 20000 all
in one go.
Make no mistake, if I could afford it, I'd buy the kit outright... engine too.
I decided that while I was saving, I could start building.
Glenn.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156786#156786
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Let's keep in mind, just for those wondering the internet, that you have the option
of buying the kit in section and you don't have to get it all at once. Shipping
will cost more but it is the option I elected mainly because I wanted to
keep my money as long as a could and I didn't have any where to store everything
when I started.
Jugle wrote:
> is more realistic for me than spending 15000 or 20000 all in one go.
>
>
> Glenn.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156791#156791
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Online built |
You're gonna have a metric-buttload of pictures of you scratching your head by
the time you are done.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156792#156792
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Dave,
It isn't a money thing as much as an acquired skill set and educational
benefit. You scratch build and you will own a lot more tools and end up
with many more skills than if
you just go kit. If you like building things, you're an engineer type
that engages technical things, you probably should seriously look at
scratch building. If you just want to fly quickly, most cheaply, just
buy an airplane. The kit build will raise a lot of questions along the
way and it's an enriching experience to say the least.
The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you
know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to
mess up. It'll happen more times than you're prepared to consider on
parts that are expensive and time consuming. You would save a lot on
freight alone for do-over-parts. Eventually, in a kit build, you'll
wonder why you couldn't have made these parts yourself. By that time,
scratch building would seem nearly the most natural thing to do. It
takes longer to scratch build and you build a thicker hide for problems
that come along in nearly the same frequency for everyone. When you're
done, you probably could rebuild a wing yourself with the forms you
own. In a kit, you bend a wing and you'll probably sell the plane or
start by ordering those expensive parts all over again. It's not
everyone's cup of tea and the end result, scratch or kit, is a beautiful
plane that performs better than an equivalent commercial aircraft.
Neither way is best for everyone, but it's a decision that's easily
sampled by either participating in a Zenith rudder workshop at Mexico,
Mo or just buying the plans and beginning at the beginning.
Good luck,
Larry McFarland Scratch Built 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
DaveC wrote:
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't
know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had
finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
[quote="Jugle"]Simple, it's cheaper and being an ex-tradesman, I have the skills.
[quote]
Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%? 80%?
I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to pick up sheets. Any kind of
tool or service is available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so that
I can spend more $$ on the engine is very attractive to me.
What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have a hard time cutting a pie correctly.
Taking a pair of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my palms
sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting?
--------
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-701 wanna-be-soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156796#156796
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: sealing fuel fittings |
Has anyone used Bakerseal? I'm using this but haven't tested with fuel yet.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/bakerseal.php
--------
601 XL kit
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156798#156798
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Let's keep in mind, just for those wondering the internet, that you have the
option of buying the kit in section and you don't have to get it all at once.
Shipping will cost more but it is the option I elected mainly because I wanted
to keep my money as long as a could and I didn't have any where to store everything
when I started.
>
No you don't need to get it all at once, but partial kits aren't necessarily the
answer... when I bought my sheet the entire amount cost me just on $3000.00
AUD, including freight, as opposed to over $5000.00 for a wing kit or fuselage
kit, plus freight.
The local Zenith agent here wouldn't sell me sections, so it meant partial kits
from the United States and that adds up when you are paying freight to Australia.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156799#156799
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
>
> The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you
> know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to
> mess up.
What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for
example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"?
Dave
--------
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-701 wanna-be-soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156800#156800
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Because it fun! I love to build things, been doing it my whole life. So I thought
I'd build something cool like an airplane. Yes it is quite a bit cheaper. How
much depends on how much you build, do you use the 912S, do you buy the welded
parts, or the struts.... There is a materials list on the following link
http://www.ch701.com But don't forget wheels, instruments, prop, engine. If YOU like to build then it's great. If you want to fly real soon buy the kit. Like said above , you can but sub-kits or you can buy any part that you don't want or can't make.
Kevin
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156801#156801
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Adding extra rib to rudder |
I think another way to look at this is safety -
If you plan on taking this plane to fly ins, then closing large gaps where
children may stick their hands is a great idea.
Ron Wanttaja wrote a great article about this a few months ago. Have you
looked at sealing the area with tape or fabric instead?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Jan 7, 2008 7:21 PM, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Engineering is always about trade-offs. Airplane engineering is
> about trade-offs that are often difficult to make.
>
> One important concept in engineering is the concept of
> "Metrics". This is not centimeters vs. inches. It is about
> measuring stuff to determine what is better and what is not. For
> this question the metrics to use are probably airspeed and weight.
>
> It might be best to leave the extra rib (fairing) off until you have
> completed your initial testing. Then you could add it - perhaps in a
> temporary fashion (like duct tape?) - and measure the difference in
> airspeed. If you can't measure any difference then you don't need
> the extra weight. If you can measure a speed difference (and it is
> in the right direction) then you can scratch your head and decide
> whether you want faster speed (with a known speed gain) or less weight.
>
> You could use a different set of metrics and get a different answer
> to your question. Maybe you are concerned about the noise level
> while flying your plane. You could perform the same experiment but
> instead of measuring airspeed you might measure sound level. The
> fairing might reduce the sound level or it might not. Again, you can
> make a good, informed, decision once you have made the measurements.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
> At 05:03 PM 1/7/2008, you wrote:
>
> >Just my thoughts on this.. Why add extra weight when not needed? I
> >cut off the corners of every "L" piece to keep weight down. Rounded
> >ends of longerons and u/c slides etc.. I'm not smart enough to do
> >the math to decide if the drag reduction is more valuable than the
> >extra weight. Anybody out there..?
> >Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
A plans builder can scratch build most of the plane and also buy sub
kits or any individual parts he'd rather not make himself. For instance,
if you don't want to make the long bends yourself you could buy the wing
kit, which includes nearly all of the long bent sheets of metal and then
scratch the build the fuselage, which is built mostly of flat sheets. Or
you could buy just the wing ribs and scratch build the rest of the wings
to save some time.
I started with the tail kit and ordered the wing kit when the tail
surfaces were nearly completed and then the fuselage kit when the wings
were nearly done. This spread the cost over longer period so I didn't
have to come up with the whole price all at once.
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> Let's keep in mind, just for those wondering the internet, that you have the
option of buying the kit in section and you don't have to get it all at once.
Shipping will cost more but it is the option I elected mainly because I wanted
to keep my money as long as a could and I didn't have any where to store everything
when I started.
>
>
> Jugle wrote:
>> is more realistic for me than spending 15000 or 20000 all in one go.
>>
>>
>> Glenn.
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
I won't be able to tell you how much cheaper, but again, it's because it's spread
out over time in smaller payments.
As far as the cut-out is concerned, don't be afraid. Most of it you can do with
an Olfa knife or with a router and templates.
But my advice... if you can afford it, buy the kit.
[quote="DaveC"][quote="Jugle"]Simple, it's cheaper and being an ex-tradesman, I
have the skills.
>
>
> Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%? 80%?
>
> I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to pick up sheets. Any kind
of tool or service is available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so that
I can spend more $$ on the engine is very attractive to me.
>
> What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have a hard time cutting a pie
correctly. Taking a pair of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my
palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that
cutting?
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156805#156805
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
There are some other reasons you want to consider:
If you ruin a piece or need to replace it or make a repair, a scratch
builder has the skills and tools to do it with out having to rely on Zenith
or wait for delivery.
There is also the issue of storage. If you buy harder to fabricate parts in
the kit, but scratch build the skins, gussets and other easier pieces then
you will require much less space for storage and the crates from Zenith will
be easier to deal with.
Scratch building also helps with some fit issues. For instance with fuselage
the seat skins that were provided were CNC pre-cut, but the passenger side
skin fit looser than the pilot side ( ~10mm ). If it were a scratch built
project then I would have initially cut an over sized piece and then trimmed
down for better fit.
And the last issue is that making simply and approved design changes will be
easier. So you want to change the wing skins to 0.020 or 0.0.25? Just order
different aluminum. Want to make the parts out of 2024? Just use different
aluminum. And as a bonus, you will not have the kit parts being replaced to
deal with.
I went with the full kit, but I realized that much of the fuselage could
have been scratch built, and my next project will probably with a mix
between scratch built and kit.
Good luck!
On Jan 8, 2008 11:13 AM, DaveC <davecove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I
> don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those
> who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Dave, I'm in Baytown at RWJ Airpark, (54T) I have Brett Hanley's 701 in
my hangar as well as my scratch built 701 project. Have built an RV3 from
scratch and a Glasair from a kit and would be willing to discuss it with
you. Come by and visit.
Answers are a personal thing but mine are:
Pride--- Some,
Learning----- Yep
Mountain -----Less so
Cheaper----- BY FAR
Take longer ,----sure ,it took me a couple months to build the "kit" will
save $7-8 K or more.
LO&SLO John Bolding
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveC" <davecove@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I
> don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask
> those who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
> Should I scratch build or kit build?
Don't forget the middle ground: buy the tougher parts (or those requiring
special tools) from Zenith (like all the welded parts) and scratch build the
rest.
-- Craig
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
You said the one thing that is the most important. "I have the skills". That
speaks volumes. I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create
from a print. I don't have the "know how" or the equipment. I am building mine
from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire
kit. Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really
don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them. Buying
each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.
I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also. I had researched
both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300. I had originally decided on using
the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms. The major overhaul
would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax. I was chatting with this
one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked me if I'd ever considered
using a Corvair Conversion?? I actually discounted it at first but after
I did more reading on it, I am hooked. I ordered my Conversion Manual (only
$59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL. I should be getting
my manuals late next week sometime. The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100
HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself. Even
at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!
Here is William Wynne's website: www.flycorvair.com
I hope this helps some.
Larry
---------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
You said the one thing that is the most important. "I have the skills". That
speaks volumes. I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create
from a print. I don't have the "know how" or the equipment. I am building mine
from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire
kit. Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really
don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them. Buying
each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.
I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also. I had researched
both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300. I had originally decided on using
the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms. The major overhaul
would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax. I was chatting with this
one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked me if I'd ever considered
using a Corvair Conversion?? I actually discounted it at first but after
I did more reading on it, I am hooked. I ordered my Conversion Manual (only
$59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL. I should be getting
my manuals late next week sometime. The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100
HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself. Even
at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!
Here is William Wynne's website: www.flycorvair.com
I hope this helps some.
Larry
---------------------------------
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
You said the one thing that is the most important. "I have the skills". That
speaks volumes. I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create
from a print. I don't have the "know how" or the equipment. I am building mine
from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire
kit. Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really
don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them. Buying
each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.
I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also. I had researched
both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300. I had originally decided on using
the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms. The major overhaul
would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax. I was chatting with this
one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked me if I'd ever considered
using a Corvair Conversion?? I actually discounted it at first but after
I did more reading on it, I am hooked. I ordered my Conversion Manual (only
$59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL. I should be getting
my manuals late next week sometime. The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100
HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself. Even
at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!
Here is William Wynne's website: www.flycorvair.com
I hope this helps some.
Larry
---------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
> Dave, if your a craftsman and don't mind working on
> your own pride and joy, then I say do it. On the
> other hand if you think you don't have the time or
> money is no object, then go ahead and order the kit.
> Remember that you still have to fudge here and there
> to make the parts fit. I myself like to scratch
> build, doesn't bother me at all and I'm in my 70's.
> Good luck in your endeavor.....do not archive..
--- DaveC <davecove@gmail.com> wrote:
> <davecove@gmail.com>
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch
> build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make
> that decision, so I thought I would ask those who
> had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for
> sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
I can afford to purchase the kit and would already be flying it now if I had.
I have two years into the project and half of an airplane built. This project
has been more fun than I have had in a long time. I can't tell you how good
it feels to finish part of the project and hang it up for storage.
Now about myself, I have been building things out of metal most of my life. Over
the past 15 years I have gotten away from the tools and do mostly computer
work. This project has helped me get my metal working skills back in shape and
the sense of satisfaction is indescribable :D Also have been collecting equipment
to continue in this enterprise after retirement.
If you want it quick, don't scratch build.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156831#156831
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| Subject: | 701 Wings Wanted |
I recently purchased a Zenith 701 project plane that has some wing
damage, and figured I should check with the list to see if anyone here
has a good set of 701 wings for sale, or perhaps a wing kit?
Thanks,
Stan Bearup
American Falls, Idaho
(208) 226-5531
bearup@ida.net
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
I bought the complete kit... reason: I want to be flying in a timely manner not
spend many years building. I'm retired so I have more time than most so I elected
to go for the standard kit rather than the quickbuild.
As to "why scratchbuild?" I would be surprised if you got the same answer from
any of the fellows who are doing it. I have a friend who is not happy unless
he is building or restoring an airplane. Once he gets it flying he quickly tires
of it and sells it, soon starting another. Other guys are anxious to be
done and flying.
You shouldn't be looking to others for a reason, ask yourself :-)
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156839#156839
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
I decided to build from component kits, since this is my first project and I wanted
all the hard bends to be made by the factory, plus spread out the cost.
I am building my own engine.
Since building my airplane, my skills have increased considerably. Plus I own
a lot more tools now than I did before.
My next project will be scratch built.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
N63PZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156841#156841
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Hi Dave,
I want to chime in on this one just because it's close to my heart as a scratchbuilder.
Without being too flip, I almost feel like if you need to ask the question,
then you should kit build. For me, the money is definitely an issue but
I have this need to challenge myself on a heroic scale every once in a while
and prove to myself that I can do difficult, if not seemingly impossible things.
I have a love of aviation - always have, and probably always will. When I started
this project, I had two things I was looking for - an affordable way to fly
(relatively speaking, of course), and a challenge that maybe .5% of people
on the planet will accomplish in their lifetime. Scratchbuilding is affording
me both - with all of the new knowledge and extra friendships and fellowship thrown
in to boot.
That passion is what will sustain you through 4+ years of scratchbuilding. If
you don't feel the NEED to scratchbuild now, it's probably not going to get any
more pronounced as time wears on. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything
against kitbuilders. I've bought enough parts from Zenith to know what a huge
time savings and convenience it is. I'm just in it for the challenge as well.
The really cool thing about building a Zenith is the ability to do both. Buy
the parts you want to - make the parts you don't.
OK, just my opinion. I hope nobody is offended. This is simply offered up as
my explanation for my motivation.
Keep drillin' fellas.
Debo Cox
Nags Head, NC (4 miles from Kitty Hawk)
Second wing 80% done
www.mykitlog.com/debo
do not archive
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
It is all of those things, but for me it was more the cost. It is about half
the cost of the kit if you do some shopping on materials plus although I
have only just begun it is rather rewarding to stand back and look at a
finished piece and be able to say I did that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveC" <davecove@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I
> don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask
> those who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
> What is not attractive to me is the cut-out.
As a mostly-kit-with-occasional-scratch builder the cutting is not hard and
the costs of a mistake not that high. You don't ruin an entire sheet and you
don't cut the final line on the first cut.
If you are seriously considering scratch building I suggest three steps:
- Buy the plans of your choice from Zenith
- Get the HomebuiltHELP.com "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD
($39 from http://www.homebuilthelp.com/Scratch.htm)
- Scratch build a rudder
> Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting?
For long straight cuts lots of us love the Olfa knife:
http://www.ch601.org/tools/olfa.htm
-- Craig
Message 41
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|
A question for all you TailDragger's out there;
I am starting on the cabin portion of the fuselage and I am trying to
install heel support 6TD1-7 (which replaces the tricycle version 6B8-8) The
cabin floor 6B10-1 has predrilled rivet lines at 285mm & 445mm for the
original 160mm wide 6B8-8 support (measured from the front edge of the cabin
floor). However in the TD version 6B8-8 is replaced by 6TD1-7 which is 235
mm wide.
Question;
Did ZAC send the wrong cabin floor for my TD? are there differing predrilled
hole patterns for tricycle vs. conventional geared XL cabin floors? Am I
supposed to drill a new rivet line @ 520mm (which correlates to the new,
wider 6TD1-7.) If I do drill a new rivet line, what about the now unused
line @ 485?
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Dave,
Everyone has there own reasons mine are in this priority:
1-The enjoyment of building from raw material
2-Quality of parts that meet individual standards
3-Meeting new aviators and learning new skills.
4-Cost
do not archive
Art
--- DaveC <davecove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't
know enough yet to
> make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Is it a pride thing?
Yes.
A personal learning thing?
Yes.
A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
Yes.
Is it that much cheaper?
Yes.
________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Members.
Anyone thinking about scratch building should not only think about the
special tools they will need but also the cost of purchasing and trying to
find everything required. There are some component parts of the ZodiacXL
that must be purchased from Zenith and they are not cheap. Consider all of
this cost and research then compare with the cost of a kit. Is what you
will save worth the trouble?
Bob Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveC" <davecove@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I
> don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask
> those who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Yes, but buying the individual parts may add up. For example a left nose rib
will cost you $31.10. Look here for the overall CH701 parts catalog:
http://www.zenithair.com/kit/701/index.html
and here for the wing parts:
http://www.zenithair.com/kit/701/wings.html
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveC
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
>
> The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you
> know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to
> mess up.
What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit
for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"?
Dave
--------
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-701 wanna-be-soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156800#156800
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) |
Alot cheaper, you learn so much more when fabricating your parts. What I
would suggest is to buy "Scratch building basics for metal aircraft" from
Homebuilthelp.com. These guys are the greatest in showing techniques and
information for the first time builder.
David Mikesell
230 Theresa Drive, #6
Cloverdale, CA 95425
209-224-4485
skyguynca@skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveC" <davecove@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
>
> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I
> don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask
> those who had finished their pondering.
>
> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.
>
> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Is it a pride thing?
> A personal learning thing?
> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?
> Is it that much cheaper?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Alvin, Texas
> CH-701 wanna-be-soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
>
>
>
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