---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/09/08: 61 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:00 AM - Corvair Conversion (was Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)) (Craig Payne) 2. 12:08 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (David Downey) 3. 12:10 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Bryan Martin) 4. 12:43 AM - Re: 701 Wings Wanted (John Marzulli) 5. 12:45 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (MacDonald Doug) 6. 01:19 AM - (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP? (John Marzulli) 7. 01:23 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Art Gibeaut) 8. 01:48 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (LarryMcFarland) 9. 02:42 AM - Re: 701 Wings Wanted () 10. 02:47 AM - Re: Fuel Filter (steveadams) 11. 02:59 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 03:01 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (William Dominguez) 13. 05:17 AM - Sale agreement (Bob) 14. 05:19 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Filter (Jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 06:34 AM - 601XL Gear Channel (special4) 16. 06:45 AM - Re: TD heel supports (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 17. 07:18 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Gig Giacona) 18. 08:37 AM - Re: Fuel Filter (steveadams) 19. 08:43 AM - LRI Probe Question (pavel569) 20. 08:56 AM - Re: 701 Wings Wanted (LRM) 21. 09:07 AM - Re: Fuel Filter (Gig Giacona) 22. 09:13 AM - Re: Sale agreement (jonaburns) 23. 09:50 AM - Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Keystone Engineering LLC) 24. 09:51 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Tim Juhl) 25. 10:47 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (PatrickW) 26. 11:01 AM - Re: instrument panel (Juan Vega) 27. 11:01 AM - Re: instrument panel (Juan Vega) 28. 11:17 AM - Re: LRI Probe Question (Dino Bortolin) 29. 11:18 AM - Re: LRI Probe Question (japhillipsga@aol.com) 30. 11:20 AM - Re: LRI Probe Question (Paul Mulwitz) 31. 11:49 AM - Fw: Re: zodiac instrument panel (Juan Vega) 32. 12:28 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (LRM) 33. 12:43 PM - Re: Sale agreement (robert stone) 34. 01:23 PM - Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Craig Payne) 35. 01:24 PM - Hangar condensate and my 601 (LarryMcFarland) 36. 01:35 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Carl) 37. 01:38 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Gig Giacona) 38. 01:46 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (John Short) 39. 02:26 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Gerald Scampoli) 40. 02:27 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Kevin L. Rupert) 41. 02:57 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Craig Payne) 42. 03:15 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (raymondj) 43. 03:22 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (DaveC) 44. 03:26 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Scott E. Bevier) 45. 03:33 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (steve) 46. 03:52 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Craig Payne) 47. 04:21 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (kmccune) 48. 04:24 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (kmccune) 49. 04:28 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (LarryMcFarland) 50. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Carl) 51. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (ZodieRocket) 52. 05:32 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Edward Moody II) 53. 05:58 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (ronlee) 54. 06:18 PM - 601 Rudder (tlski) 55. 06:40 PM - Condensation (Jaybannist@cs.com) 56. 06:53 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (macleod@eagle.ca) 57. 07:02 PM - Re: 601 Rudder (ZodieRocket) 58. 07:04 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (leinad) 59. 07:17 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (leinad) 60. 07:18 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (macleod@eagle.ca) 61. 08:04 PM - Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:43 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Corvair Conversion (was Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)) > Here is William Wynne's website: www.flycorvair.com Don't forget to subscribe to the Corvaircraft e-mail list : http://mylist.net/listinfo/corvaircraft There is a searchable archive of the list here: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp -- Craig ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:29 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Zenith has sold me not only separate parts but even parts bent from a different gauge that the standard kit (and at no extra charge!). great company. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > > The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you > know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to > mess up. What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"? Dave -------- Dave Alvin, Texas CH-701 wanna-be-soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156800#156800 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:36 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) I have bought replacements for a few parts I messed up. Zenith had no problem with that. DaveC wrote: > > > What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"? > > Dave > > -------- > Dave > Alvin, Texas > CH-701 wanna-be-soon > > > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:50 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wings Wanted Zenith will happily sell you a wing kit, and that is probably the best way to go. The wings will have to be built with a pickup template made from the fuselage in order for a proper fit to be obtained. Good luck! DO NOT ARCHIVE On Jan 8, 2008 1:42 PM, Stan Bearup wrote: > I recently purchased a Zenith 701 project plane that has some wing > damage, and figured I should check with the list to see if anyone here has a > good set of 701 wings for sale, or perhaps a wing kit? > > Thanks, > Stan Bearup > American Falls, Idaho > (208) 226-5531 > bearup@ida.net > > * > > * > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:02 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Dave, I'm sure that I'm not the going to be the last one to suggest this. Get the Homebuilthelp.com scratch building basics DVD. Mark Townsend (CAN-ZAC Aviation) and David Barth go through the basics of scratch building a sheet metal (especially Zenith) aircraft. Oh, and don't forget Mr. Sock. The DVDs are about 3 hrs long and you will watch them several times and learn something new every time. Once you see Mark do it, the manufacture of the parts that make up the kit is really not that hard. I'm scratch building my CH-701 and cannot imagine doing it any other way. Either scratch built or kit built, Zenith aircraft are great projects. I can't believe how much I've learned in the last two years. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada Do Not Archive --- DaveC wrote: > Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%? > 80%? > > I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to > pick up sheets. Any kind of tool or service is > available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so > that I can spend more $$ on the engine is very > attractive to me. > > What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have > a hard time cutting a pie correctly. Taking a pair > of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my > palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the > only way to go for all that cutting? > > -------- > Dave > Alvin, Texas > CH-701 wanna-be-soon Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:27 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Zenith-List: (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP? When I drilled out the holes that connect 7F3-3SP with the diagonal tube the distance between the holes was unacceptable to me. This was after even reducing the edge distance for the holes on the gusset and the tube. I ended up fabricating a new diagonal tube gusset, but it seems fairly impossible to fit those four rivets in the tube if you have everything lined up correctly. The only solution I can see is enlarging the gusset inboard so you gain more space on the diagonal. Anyone else have this problem? I could not find anything in the archives about it. Thanks! -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:38 AM PST US From: Art Gibeaut Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) My 2 cents is Larry is exactly right, the way it turns out. I bought the components kits for the 701, and then scratch built what I screwed up. Ain't this fun? But, the guys on this site help a lot, even if they never know it directly. --- On Tue, 1/8/08, DaveC wrote: > From: DaveC > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2008, 5:29 PM > > > > larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > > > > The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or > parts that you > > know you cannot build and then scratch build parts > that you manage to > > mess up. > > > What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs > out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a > break larger than 36"? > > Dave > > -------- > Dave > Alvin, Texas > CH-701 wanna-be-soon > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156800#156800 > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:59 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Hi Dave, I have $34,070 total now and there's at least another $1000 for communication head sets, GPS, log books, charts flashlight and flight bag. Total now, approximately $35,000.00 plus 5-1/2 years at nearly 5000 hours of work, considering jigs and aircraft construction at even $10.00 per hour puts another invisible $50K into the mix which makes it possible to see why manufactured SLA aircraft might be so expensive. With all this, you still have a better deal by $12K to 15K than the Kit if you plans-build while buying only parts you cannot make. I prefer the air-driven shears from HF for cutting just outside the cut line and trimming by hand to the exactitude and hand filing the line. Larry McFarland Scratch built 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com DaveC wrote: > > [quote="Jugle"]Simple, it's cheaper and being an ex-tradesman, I have the skills. > [quote] > > Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%? 80%? > > I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to pick up sheets. Any kind of tool or service is available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so that I can spend more $$ on the engine is very attractive to me. > > What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have a hard time cutting a pie correctly. Taking a pair of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting? > > -------- > Dave > Alvin, Texas > CH-701 wanna-be-soon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156796#156796 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:21 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wings Wanted Becareful Stan, if someone does offer to sell you a set of wings then he will get FLAMED!!!! on here and accused of selling illegal copyrighted parts, even though they are only trying to help you. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan Bearup To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Wings Wanted I recently purchased a Zenith 701 project plane that has some wing damage, and figured I should check with the list to see if anyone here has a good set of 701 wings for sale, or perhaps a wing kit? Thanks, Stan Bearup American Falls, Idaho (208) 226-5531 bearup@ida.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Filter From: "steveadams" Gig Giacona wrote: > OK, where do you think the fault intolerance is in the system? > > > > jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca wrote: > > dingfelder wrote: > > I'm sorry, but at the risk of flames, why would anyone knowingly design > > such a fault-intolerant, complex fuel system? > > > > > Maybe I am wrong, but from what I understand, the fuel pumps should be in a "parallel" configuration, as the failure of one pump could severely restrict or completely block flow of fuel through the line. Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156904#156904 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:42 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Hi Dave, For me the kit vs. scratch build question was easy to answer. I felt willing to pay a fair price for the services provided by Zenith in hunting down materials and performing some of the most difficult tasks such as welding and bending long parts. Many of the building tasks are the same whether you buy a kit or not. I think the ones that differ are mostly administrative tasks procuring materials and basic metal working tasks. If you enjoy doing these things then the scratch building approach is a good choice. If you have enough money to pay for these things and don't want to do them then the kit approach is a good one. I feel the quality of parts provided by Zenith is very high. If you want this level of quality in a plane you will put your body in then Zenith is a good choice to supply parts. If you decide to build all the parts from raw materials then you must have or develop the skill and patience to produce high quality parts yourself. In either case you must develop the skill to evaluate the parts you are using. While most of the work done by Zenith is very good there is always the chance of a screw up. As a builder, you are the final authority on quality of your plane and of each part that goes into it. The other obvious point is you will finish your plane a lot sooner if you buy the kit. If your primary reason for building a plane is you want to get it in the air then this is a positive thing. If your primary reason for building a plane is to enjoy the building process then this could be viewed as a negative. I don't know how much money you can save by scratch building, but I suspect it is rather small compared to the cost of the whole plane. It depends on how well you perform the task of acquiring materials. In any case you can only save a portion of the kit cost which is something around $20,000. You will still face additional costs of engine, paint, instrumentation, upholstery, and other stuff no matter which way you build the basic airframe. Good luck, Paul Xl fuselage At 11:13 AM 1/8/2008, you wrote: >Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? >I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would >ask those who had finished their pondering. > >I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure. > >So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] > >Is it a pride thing? >A personal learning thing? >A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? >Is it that much cheaper? > >-------- >Dave >Alvin, Texas >CH-701 wanna-be-soon ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:43 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) I'm scratch building a 601XL and the # 1 reason I'm doing is because it is fun and very rewarding, for me. There are lots of rational reasons in favor of scratch building like, lower cost, pay as you go, learning, pride, sense of achievement. However, these reasons will have no value if you don't enjoy cutting and bending aluminum or any of the other demands of scratch building. In making a decision between plans or kit, don't get too caught up in reasons and just go for what you think will be more rewarding for you. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/ Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure. So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] Is it a pride thing? A personal learning thing? A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? Is it that much cheaper? -------- Dave Alvin, Texas CH-701 wanna-be-soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:09 AM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Zenith-List: Sale agreement Has anyone come up with a good sales agreement for an experimental? EAA lists many questions but no formal agreement. Probably does not want to publish one because it would be seen as giving legal advice. Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:59 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Filter Steve, Not true. William Wynne recommends two fuel pumps in series. He has been flying his 601XL for several years in this configuration with no problems. For some types of fuel pumps, this may be true, but not the ones Wynne recommends (Facet Part No. FP-40108). Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" "steveadams" wrote: > > >Gig Giacona wrote: >> OK, where do you think the fault intolerance is in the system? >> >> >> >> jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca wrote: >> > dingfelder wrote: >> > I'm sorry, but at the risk of flames, why would anyone knowingly design >> > such a fault-intolerant, complex fuel system? >> > >> > >> > > >Maybe I am wrong, but from what I understand, the fuel pumps should be in a "parallel" configuration, as the failure of one pump could severely restrict or completely block flow of fuel through the line. > >Steve > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156904#156904 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Gear Channel From: "special4" I need a gear channel 6B5-5... does any group member have a "spare" one..... Thanks Peter 601XL -------- Sportsflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156936#156936 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:02 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: TD heel supports I measured my QB fuselage. Measuring outside from the forward lower edge of the firewall, the lines are at approx. 315 and 555 mm back. (Hard to measure with gear in the way.) There is no intermediate line. You will have to drill a new row and fill your short row with rivets. Sorry, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "Gig Giacona" Let's be realistic here. If cutting the aluminum makes you nervous the you probably aren't a good candidate for scratch building. And if you can't get over that concern you may not be a candidate for kit building. Along with the video that lots of folks have suggested go to the Rudder Building workshop. It's what I did and when I went the main thing I was trying to decide was if I had or could develop the skills needed to build the kit. When I started a lot less was done when you bought the kit as opposed to how the kit is delivered now and there was no QBK. I'd strongly suggest you go to the workshop no matter which path you choose to take it is worth it. Here's a link to more info. http://zenithair.com/events.htm DaveC wrote: > What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have a hard time cutting a pie correctly. Taking a pair of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156954#156954 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Filter From: "steveadams" Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Steve, > > Not true. William Wynne recommends two fuel pumps in series. He has been flying his 601XL for several years in this configuration with no problems. For some types of fuel pumps, this may be true, but not the ones Wynne recommends (Facet Part No. FP-40108). > > Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" > > I stand corrected. I had never seen this type of arrangement before. > > Steve > > > > "steveadams" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > > OK, where do you think the fault intolerance is in the system? > > > > > > > > > > > > jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca wrote: > > > > dingfelder wrote: > > > > I'm sorry, but at the risk of flames, why would anyone knowingly design > > > > such a fault-intolerant, complex fuel system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I am wrong, but from what I understand, the fuel pumps should be in a "parallel" configuration, as the failure of one pump could severely restrict or completely block flow of fuel through the line. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156904#156904 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156967#156967 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:27 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Question From: "pavel569" There is probably more than 10 topics about LRI or AOA - yes or not, buy or make etc. I have a machine shop and being cheap means I want to make it myself. I went through all these discussions here to find a recommended drawing for a probe. http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm If I look at the drawing it just doesn't give a sense to me. Both the holes opening are at the same angle - they are parallel so no matter what the angle of the probe with a wing is, they will have to read the same pressure. What my common sense is telling me is that I have to have to drill the hole at port openings at a different angle - 45% so higher angle of attack will increase the ram pressure in lower probe. One more thing - sharp or round edges. In my opinion it doesn't matter. Most important thing would be to have the flowing air coming only into the hole area opening - not to cumulate more air going in from other surfaces like pouring water through a funnel. So if I keep the probe edge flat just around the inlet, I should be fine. I'll make a few extras, so it may be for grab, I guess. Please, let me know what you think. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156970#156970 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:00 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wings Wanted If you build both parts then it doesn't matter which you build first. If you follow the plans they will fit regardless of the cart or the horse. In your case John could be right, it might not be a bad idea to do a lot of measuring and build a template because someone else built the fuselage. There is no telling what you will find. However, I will say that if you buy ready made wings that don't exactly fit, you can always use shims and longer bolts. Everything is fixable. LRM www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John Marzulli To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:29 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wings Wanted Zenith will happily sell you a wing kit, and that is probably the best way to go. The wings will have to be built with a pickup template made from the fuselage in order for a proper fit to be obtained. Good luck! DO NOT ARCHIVE On Jan 8, 2008 1:42 PM, Stan Bearup wrote: I recently purchased a Zenith 701 project plane that has some wing damage, and figured I should check with the list to see if anyone here has a good set of 701 wings for sale, or perhaps a wing kit? Thanks, Stan Bearup American Falls, Idaho (208) 226-5531 bearup@ida.net -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 1/8/2008 1:38 PM ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Filter From: "Gig Giacona" The pumps used in the WW design flow freely when off. In fact, only one of those pumps is running at any given time. steveadams wrote: > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > OK, where do you think the fault intolerance is in the system? > > > > > > > > jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca wrote: > > > dingfelder wrote: > > > I'm sorry, but at the risk of flames, why would anyone knowingly design > > > such a fault-intolerant, complex fuel system? > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I am wrong, but from what I understand, the fuel pumps should be in a "parallel" configuration, as the failure of one pump could severely restrict or completely block flow of fuel through the line. > > Steve -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156975#156975 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sale agreement From: "jonaburns" http://www.mstewart.net/Downloads/expbos.doc Here is a bill of Sale off one of the RV sites I like. Jon Burns 601XL Kit "almost" complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156979#156979 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:53 AM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Why buy a kit or scratch build? To me the question was simple. I enjoyed building the airplane. I love to fly. Anything that would get me into the air sooner was better. It was worth the extra money to fly a year or two or three earlier. Bill Wilcox Valdez, Alaska N801BW 350 hrs Put away for winter fitting for floats before spring. >Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to >make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "Tim Juhl" Gig's advice is really good. The rudder building workshop will answer a lot of your questions. Even when you buy the kit there is still a lot of trimming and filing to finish the parts. What helps is that the big pieces like wing skins are cut to size and have #40 pilot holes where the ribs and rear spar go. I was no great shakes on cutting aluminum before I started but now I am a real whiz at such things. It helps to have the right tools and a couple of things I'd put high on my list would be an OLFA P800 knife (see: http://www.ch601.org/tools/olfa.htm) for making long straight cuts and a nibbling tool for those really tight spots. EAA also offers weekend classes around the country that teach basic airplane building skills. So far I have taken the sheet metal and composites (for working with the fiberglass parts) classes and benefited from both (http://www.sportair.com/) One additional comment - I chose Zenith because of the quality and completeness of it's kits and the support from the factory. An added bonus has been the quality of support and encouragement that I've received from the members of this list. Tim Juhl -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156985#156985 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "PatrickW" For a lot of guys, it's not a question of "scratch build vs kit"... It's a question of "kit vs quick build". Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156998#156998 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:38 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Zenith-List: Re: instrument panel i replyed last week. please check to make sure you got it. i have dydnons and I mentioned that I have the 100 and 120, and that I would only do the 180 next time. I have becker radio and transpdr. and a lowrance airmap 2000 If you go online Pete at Jabiru Tennesse has a great price on the becker trnxpr and radio, like around 2200, 1000.00 less than list. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: laurens ackerman >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 9:56 PM >To: amyvega2005@earthlink.net >Subject: instrument panel > >I thought I sent you mail recently asking about your instrument panel. >Perhaps I did not. >Anyway, my question is as follows: > >Could you send me a list of instruments on your panel. >I saw your panel on the zenith site and will be putting together a >similar panel...any advice is appreciated. >Thanks, > >laurens > >-- >Laurens Ackerman >lackerma@gmail.com >cell 847 226 6945 >wilmette home 847 251 0635 >montana home 406 777 0080 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:47 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Zenith-List: Re: instrument panel i replyed last week. please check to make sure you got it. i have dydnons and I mentioned that I have the 100 and 120, and that I would only do the 180 next time. I have becker radio and transpdr. and a lowrance airmap 2000 If you go online Pete at Jabiru Tennesse has a great price on the becker trnxpr and radio, like around 2200, 1000.00 less than list. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: laurens ackerman >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 9:56 PM >To: amyvega2005@earthlink.net >Subject: instrument panel > >I thought I sent you mail recently asking about your instrument panel. >Perhaps I did not. >Anyway, my question is as follows: > >Could you send me a list of instruments on your panel. >I saw your panel on the zenith site and will be putting together a >similar panel...any advice is appreciated. >Thanks, > >laurens > >-- >Laurens Ackerman >lackerma@gmail.com >cell 847 226 6945 >wilmette home 847 251 0635 >montana home 406 777 0080 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:15 AM PST US From: "Dino Bortolin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Question The angle of the ports doesn't matter, within reason. It's the angle of the surfaces to the relative airflow that causes a differential pressure. On Jan 9, 2008 11:41 AM, pavel569 wrote: > > There is probably more than 10 topics about LRI or AOA - yes or not, buy > or make etc. I have a machine shop and being cheap means I want to make it > myself. I went through all these discussions here to find a recommended > drawing for a probe. > http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm > > If I look at the drawing it just doesn't give a sense to me. Both the > holes opening are at the same angle - they are parallel so no matter what > the angle of the probe with a wing is, they will have to read the same > pressure. What my common sense is telling me is that I have to have to drill > the hole at port openings at a different angle - 45% so higher angle of > attack will increase the ram pressure in lower probe. > One more thing - sharp or round edges. In my opinion it doesn't matter. > Most important thing would be to have the flowing air coming only into the > hole area opening - not to cumulate more air going in from other surfaces > like pouring water through a funnel. So if I keep the probe edge flat just > around the inlet, I should be fine. I'll make a few extras, so it may be for > grab, I guess. > Please, let me know what you think. > > -------- > Pavel > CA > Zodiac XL N581PM > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156970#156970 > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Question From: japhillipsga@aol.com Pavel, I understand your concern. I have a LRI proble mounted under my XL's left wing that was made to these plans and it works well. Use it every time I fly. The probe is an aluminum bar cut square. One hole comes out the end and the second hole out the side. The corner of the bar is the split line. To adjust it to the planes stall you adjust the probe up or down. Best of luck, Bill -----Original Message----- From: pavel569 Sent: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:41 am Subject: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Question There is probably more than 10 topics about LRI or AOA - yes or not, buy or make etc. I have a machine shop and being cheap means I want to make it myself. I went through all these discussions here to find a recommended drawing for a probe. http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm If I look at the drawing it just doesn't give a sense to me. Both the holes opening are at the same angle - they are parallel so no matter what the angle of the probe with a wing is, they will have to read the same pressure. What my common sense is telling me is that I have to have to drill the hole at port openings at a different angle - 45% so higher angle of attack will increase the ram pressure in lower probe. One more thing - sharp or round edges. In my opinion it doesn't matter. Most important thing would be to have the flowing air coming only into the hole area opening - not to cumulate more air going in from other surfaces like pouring water through a funnel. So if I keep the probe edge flat just around the inlet, I should be fine. I'll make a few extras, so it may be for grab, I guess. Please, let me know what you think. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156970#156970 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:40 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Question Hi Pavel, I built my own LRI probe and bought a new gauge from the manufacturer. My take on the holes is you drill them just as shown in the drawing. I haven't flown it in my plane yet (slight lack of flying plane) but I did a little testing while holding it out the window of a moving car. It works fine. I think the part you might not be considering is the sharp corner between the two input holes. This edge divides the air flow so a portion goes in the upper sense hole and a different portion goes in the lower hole. I think it is important for this edge to be sharp and the space from the edge to the sense holes to be flat. Have fun, Paul XL fuselage At 08:41 AM 1/9/2008, you wrote: >There is probably more than 10 topics about LRI or AOA - yes or not, >buy or make etc. I have a machine shop and being cheap means I want >to make it myself. I went through all these discussions here to find >a recommended drawing for a probe. >http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm > >If I look at the drawing it just doesn't give a sense to me. Both >the holes opening are at the same angle - they are parallel so no >matter what the angle of the probe with a wing is, they will have >to read the same pressure. What my common sense is telling me is >that I have to have to drill the hole at port openings at a >different angle - 45% so higher angle of attack will increase the >ram pressure in lower probe. >One more thing - sharp or round edges. In my opinion it doesn't >matter. Most important thing would be to have the flowing air coming >only into the hole area opening - not to cumulate more air going in >from other surfaces like pouring water through a funnel. So if I >keep the probe edge flat just around the inlet, I should be fine. >I'll make a few extras, so it may be for grab, I guess. >Please, let me know what you think. > >-------- >Pavel >CA >Zodiac XL N581PM ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:19 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Re: zodiac instrument panel -----Forwarded Message----- >From: Juan Vega >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 10:41 AM >To: lackerfma@gmail.com >Subject: Re: zodiac instrument panel > >they are dynon d100 and d120 system with Becker radio and a lowrance airmap. I would recommend the D180 and you will have more rom to put a VOR/GS system on the right of the GPS in the middle. > >-----Original Message----- >>From: laurens ackerman >>Sent: Jan 7, 2008 11:57 PM >>To: amyvega2005@earthlink.net >>Subject: zodiac instrument panel >> >>Hello, >> >>I am building an XL and recently saw your instrument panel on the >>Zenith Web site. I like what I saw. Could you send me a list >>of the instruments you have installed. >> >>I see you are using a GRT EFIS and EIS. Are they connected to >>any other devices in the panel? >> >>Thanks in advance, >> >>laurens ackerman ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:36 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Here's the bottom line. It's almost political. If you are a scratch builder, you think everyone should be a scratch builder. If a kit builder, then kit builder. I'll tell you this, you will make less mistakes building a kit. I did not have to do a single part over. Now a lot of parts are precut and prepunched, some parts are even completed for you. Scratch building is just what it says it is, you do it all unless you out source and you will have to buy or obtain somehow a lot of Expensive tools you may never need again. I have all the tools and skill to scratch build but would opt for a kit every time if the money was available. These scratch guys say it's easy, wrong even the kit isn't easy. There are several mistakes in the plans and the instructions can be very misleading. You have to really take you time, measure 3 times cut once. Access your money, skill level, time, space and do what you feel right about. I just bought a half build kit for 50 cents on the dollar. There is no telling how many started but unfinished kits are out there. You might try and look for one. Of course you really have to look it over good, I found my new kit was a victim of not so good workman ship. I had to redo a lot of work. Stay on the list, we all will help or confuse you as much as possible. It keeps us busy so we don't start bickering. LRM www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Art Olechowski" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:44 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) > > > Dave, > Everyone has there own reasons mine are in this priority: > 1-The enjoyment of building from raw material > 2-Quality of parts that meet individual standards > 3-Meeting new aviators and learning new skills. > 4-Cost > > do not archive > Art > > > --- DaveC wrote: > >> >> Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I >> don't know enough yet to >> make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their >> pondering. >> >> I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure. >> >> So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] >> >> Is it a pride thing? >> A personal learning thing? >> A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? >> Is it that much cheaper? >> >> -------- >> Dave >> Alvin, Texas >> CH-701 wanna-be-soon >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 1:38 PM > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:10 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sale agreement Bob, Yes, someone did a few months back and I kept a copy of it. I have attached it to this e-mail for your information. The Zenith net may reject this because its so large so I have sent a copy direct to you as well. I think the wording of this sales agreement is designed to absolve the seller/builder of any liability in case the buyer has an accident and is severely injured or killed. I am not a lawyer so I don't know if the wording of this document would protect the seller or not. If you are going to sell an experimental aircraft, I would most certainly check with a lawyer first. Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:13 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Sale agreement Has anyone come up with a good sales agreement for an experimental? EAA lists many questions but no formal agreement. Probably does not want to publish one because it would be seen as giving legal advice. Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:06 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit On my QBK the central pedal bearing 6B9-4 came installed along with the rudder pedals. I was looking at the lock nuts underneath the fuselage on the three AN3-15A bolts. Normal practice (and the Zenith construction standards, page 31) call for a minimum of two threads to protrude beyond the nut. On my QBK the end of the bolts do not protrude at all. In fact the tips of the bolts are probably recessed by two threads. I don't think any threads engage the Nylon portion of the lock nuts. Although an AN3-16A might meet the spec I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure enough length. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:38 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Hi guys, On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt that would help. In conversation with another builder, hed heard putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and condensing on the planes surfaces. Im not a weatherman, and only have a vague idea of whats actually going on. There are probably many of us looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these wet periods? Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:29 PM PST US From: "Carl" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) DaveC, I scratch built my 701 in 1995. Some quick points for your consideration: 1. Cost of building fuselage (firewall back) half price of kit. 2. More time? yes. I was flying after 370 days. I estimate approx 1200 hrs. A kit would have saved me time; how much? maybe 30%. 3. If you screw up a part you replace it on the spot.( No calls, no freight, no wait). 4. If you want a bigger safety factor in a part you can do it during the build. (Some will disagree with changing the plans but as an experimental buider it's your call). 5. Once you start flying parts wear and need replacing. You will confidently make your own if you scratch built. 6. Finally you will aquire extra skills that will serve in other projects for the rest of your life. Hope this helps. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveC" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: "Gig Giacona" The plastic on the floor might help but if there is that much moisture in the hanger the last thing you want to do is cover the airplane. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157063#157063 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:57 PM PST US From: "John Short" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Larry: I'm not sure if the plastic on the floor will work, I do know that before pouring concrete if you put down plastic then pour it will keep the moisture from wicking through your slab. But hey it would be a cheap experiment to see, it might work the same way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 > > > Hi guys, > > On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my > aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the > condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt > that would help. In conversation with another builder, hed heard putting > a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar would help > prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and condensing on > the planes surfaces. Im not a weatherman, and only have a vague idea of > whats actually going on. There are probably many of us looking for a > better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or practices > regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these wet periods? > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:38 PM PST US From: Gerald Scampoli Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Larry, Usually the key factor in controlling moisture and condensation in a structure is adequate ventilation. Can you provide a few square feet of vent opening both at the roof line and at or near grade? I'm no expert, but I saw this approach work for my EAA chapter hangar. Gerry Scampoli Hingham, MA 601XL - Corvair > Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:23:45 -0600 > From: larry@macsmachine.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 > > > > Hi guys, > > On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my > aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the > condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt > that would help. In conversation with another builder, hed heard > putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar > would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and > condensing on the planes surfaces. Im not a weatherman, and only have > a vague idea of whats actually going on. There are probably many of us > looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or > practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these > wet periods? > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista + Windows Live. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:16 PM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit You can try a 960L thin washer first. If that doesn't do the trick then a longer bolt is in order. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:42 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Thanks for the idea. But it is so bad that *eliminating* the washer wouldn't bring it within spec. You would need a washer with negative thickness :-) -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin L. Rupert Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit You can try a 960L thin washer first. If that doesn't do the trick then a longer bolt is in order. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:47 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Dave, I will be scratch building my own design because I couldn't find what I wanted. I would scratch build from plans even if a kit was available. I expect to acquire skills during construction that can't be acquired any other way. I also own an old aluminum boat, so the skills and tools will do double duty for me. I expect the material cost to be lower than any equivalent kit. I look forward to the satisfaction of stepping out of the aircraft after the initial flight. I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an airplane. :^) Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveC" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) > > Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I > don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask > those who had finished their pondering. > > I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure. > > So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] > > Is it a pride thing? > A personal learning thing? > A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? > Is it that much cheaper? > > -------- > Dave > Alvin, Texas > CH-701 wanna-be-soon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771 > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "DaveC" Thanks to all... but I think Carl said just the right thing: 6. Finally you will acquire extra skills that will serve in other projects for the rest of your life. Having lived aboard a boat for 4 years, I am comfortable with wood, fiberglass and things mechanical, but I have worked very little metal. Metal is a gaping hole in the middle of my skill set. I bought my first MIG welder and learned to use it only 4 years ago. I also have 2 compressors, a 36" shear/break/slip roll and a barely-used medium sized mill/lathe I bought locally off eBay. I have the desire to work metals and a good start on the tools needed but until now (well, actually May 07, when I sold my Grumman AA5) I haven't had a good reason for getting bizzy with the metal. And now I have the right reason. I will scratch-build the 701, starting on the easiest parts and progressing toward the most difficult. As I progress I will make or buy the parts I need depending upon how well my skills are developing and the overall speed of the project. So... now another open-ended question... that is the best part to start on? A scratch build part that will build skills and not cost a lot to mess up. Wing and tail ribs maybe? Lots of them... wax on/wax off kind of practice? -------- Dave Alvin, Texas CH-701 wanna-be-soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157084#157084 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US From: "Scott E. Bevier" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Larry, There's a simple way to determine if the source of moisture is from the concrete slab. Cover a 48" square area on the floor with clear plastic and tape the edges down. After 24 hours, check for condensate UNDER the plastic. I don't believe this is the reason for the wet airplane. What happens is after a period of cold temperatures the hanger is cold, your airplane is cold, everything is cold, and there's very little moisture in the air. Then we get an abrupt blast of warm moisture laden air from the south and the moisture will condense out on all surfaces that are below the dew point. I see this a lot here in Michigan, especially in early Spring. There's no practical way to prevent this but you could try running a high velocity fan in the hanger whenever the weather forecast indicate warm moist air is on the way. This may help reduce the amount of condensate on the airplane, and the duration it's wet, but it will not prevent it. Scott Bevier active plans builder 601XL -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Hi guys, On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt that would help. In conversation with another builder, he'd heard putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and condensing on the plane's surfaces. I'm not a weatherman, and only have a vague idea of what's actually going on. There are probably many of us looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these wet periods? Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:47 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Must change... Did you get the hole gauge ??? SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit > On my QBK the central pedal bearing 6B9-4 came installed along with the > rudder pedals. I was looking at the lock nuts underneath the fuselage on > the > three AN3-15A bolts. Normal practice (and the Zenith construction > standards, > page 31) call for a minimum of two threads to protrude beyond the nut. On > my > QBK the end of the bolts do not protrude at all. In fact the tips of the > bolts are probably recessed by two threads. I don't think any threads > engage > the Nylon portion of the lock nuts. Although an AN3-16A might meet the > spec > I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure > enough length. > > -- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:57 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit No - I ordered my own set from Grizzly and it got caught in a snow storm coming down from Washington state. So instead of arriving today it will arrive tomorrow. I did receive my 5/16th close tolerance bolts from Spruce and they are still loose in my worst spar holes. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Must change... Did you get the hole gauge ??? SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit > On my QBK the central pedal bearing 6B9-4 came installed along with the > rudder pedals. I was looking at the lock nuts underneath the fuselage on > the > three AN3-15A bolts. Normal practice (and the Zenith construction > standards, > page 31) call for a minimum of two threads to protrude beyond the nut. On > my > QBK the end of the bolts do not protrude at all. In fact the tips of the > bolts are probably recessed by two threads. I don't think any threads > engage > the Nylon portion of the lock nuts. Although an AN3-16A might meet the > spec > I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure > enough length. > > -- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "kmccune" [Laughing] raymondj(at)frontiernet.n wrote: > Dave, > > > > I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an > airplane. :^) > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "Hope for the best, > but prepare for the worst." > > do not archive > > > --- Do not Archive -------- Kevin N701DZ Reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157101#157101 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "kmccune" I started with the rudder, same as the rudder workshop. The 1st homebuilt help video will guide you though it and it will give you what you need to continue with the rest. I suggest to get all the videos, I don't count it as airplane build time though :D -------- Kevin N701DZ Reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157102#157102 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:24 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Gerald, You may have hit on it and it would be a problem of my own making. Last spring, I used expanding insulating foam to keep the birds out of the hangar and managed to close everything they could get thru. I may have to drill it all out to allow air to circulate and replace it with screen. Of course, there are a few days that will be damp regardless, but this is one I can do. Thanks again! Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Gerald Scampoli wrote: > > Larry, > > Usually the key factor in controlling moisture and condensation in a structure is adequate ventilation. Can you provide a few square feet of vent opening both at the roof line and at or near grade? > > I'm no expert, but I saw this approach work for my EAA chapter hangar. > > Gerry Scampoli > Hingham, MA > 601XL - Corvair > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:34 PM PST US From: "Carl" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Dave Wings are a good choice to start. Only advise, build a nice level 4'X12' table before you start assembly. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveC" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:56 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Dave, go to www.homebuilthelp.com and order the scratch builders DVD. This should be your first step. Then ask questions after watching that DVD. The cost is low and the learning will help you a lot. Plus they build a 701 Rudder in the making of the DVD. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- So... now another open-ended question... that is the best part to start on? A scratch build part that will build skills and not cost a lot to mess up. Wing and tail ribs maybe? Lots of them... wax on/wax off kind of practice? -------- Dave Alvin, Texas CH-701 wanna-be-soon 1/9/2008 10:16 AM ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:51 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 I am not sure what is common practice in your locale but here in Louisiana, we always put heavy plastic down in the forms over the dirt/sand before pouring concrete. My understanding is the plastic is intended to prevent the finished concrete from "sweating" during cool, damp weather. If that was done when your hangar's slab was poured then more plastic over the surface isn't likely to help. In fact, the only thing that is likely to help is probably not practical. That would be to lower the relative humidity inside the hangar, probably by raising the temperature. If you have another way to dehumidify the hangar that might solve the problem but otherwise you are most likely stuck with the situation. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: LarryMcFarland To: zenith-list Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Hi guys, On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: "ronlee" c Covering the ground with plastic and then old carpet on top of it worked for our hanger. Before that the water would drip from the ceiling from condensation. The planes also would sweat if conditions were right before covering the floor. Apparently very much moisture was coming up through the ground, even though it looked bone dry. No more problems now. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157134#157134 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:21 PM PST US From: "tlski" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Rudder I am ready to complete the rudder and it was suggested that I install the rudder bearing blocks when the fuse is done. How much of the rudder should I close? ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:23 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Condensation Larry, In my experience, I have found that there are many causes of wet concrete slabs. In mysterious instances, a concrete slab will attract moisture even where there seems to be none. Moisture barriers are not always used, because it keeps the freshly placed concrete from giving up its moisture uniformly through the top and bottom, resulting in slab curling. To get around this, sometimes there is a moisture barrier and a layer of sand on top of it to promote proper drying of the slab. But a concrete slab with no moisture barrier beneath it might result in a damp slab, but not necessarily a damp atmosphere. Condensation on objects above the slab result from a very damp atmosphere and very cold temperatures. The real cure is interior climate control, but as has been previously suggested, ventilation is the most expedient cure. I would try that first. Jay in Dallas (Retired Architect) 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit From: macleod@eagle.ca Craig: I had the same problem with my kit (not quick build). I replaced the AN3-15As with AN3-16As and used thin washers to get the required thread exposure. I am in the fortunate position of having lots of AN hardware on hand so these substitutions are easy for me. Mike waiting patiently for my Rotax FWFwd ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Although an AN3-16A might meet the > spec > I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure > enough length. > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:39 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Rudder Sounds like a Canadian on Vacation. For Canadian inspection by the MD-RA you may rivet one side complete, rivet the nose skin on the rib but only half of the rear skin on the one side. Set 4 rivets in the spar for storage which will be drilled out the day of the inspection. Do not store the rudder with cleco=92s in it, or any part for that matter. A cleco over time is a magnet for accidental hitting or catching on clothing which will leave a dent in your part. Also over time a cleco can rust from condensation leaving corrosion on your part. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tlski Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:16 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Rudder I am ready to complete the rudder and it was suggested that I install the rudder bearing blocks when the fuse is done. How much of the rudder should I close? "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 1/9/2008 10:16 AM 1/9/2008 10:16 AM ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "leinad" My foremost reason was the (lack) of money. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157153#157153 ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "leinad" LRM, I can't agree with that. I think you'll find most of us scratch builders understand the desire to get it done faster. I think you'll find most of us regard it as a trade off. Cost VS Time. I don't think scratch building is for everybody. Dan lrm(at)skyhawg.com wrote: > Here's the bottom line. It's almost political. If you are a scratch > builder, you think everyone should be a scratch builder. > > --- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157158#157158 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: macleod@eagle.ca Larry: As others have noted, if the temperature of the plane skins go below the dew point (ie cold plane & warm moist air) then you will get condensation on the plane (probably inside and outside). I am a metallurgical engineer and can assure you that the plane's materials can easily take this wetness without any ill effects. Venting the hanger will certainly help but perhaps an easier solution would be to just put light bulbs in the plane (one in each wing root and one in the fuse). That should be enough to keep the interior and the outer surfaces above the dew point. I do this in my unheated garage more for piece of mind with the electronics than anything else. You only need to turn them on during the kind of weather we have had in the past few days (sudden warming where the moist outside air is much warmer than the temperature inside the hanger or if there is a chance of fog). Turned colder today so I turned the lights off. I use 60 watt bulbs. Mike 601XL waiting patiently for the Rotax FWFwd > Are there any good suggestions or > practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these > wet periods? > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:24 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Thanks! I'm not surprised that the regular kits can have the same problem. All the parts involved were made by ZAC in Missouri. But I do wonder why the folks in Bogota built and shipped it this way. For small orders like this the shipping from Aircraft Spruce is usually more than the parts. I'll probably wait till I have a larger order and order -16A and -17A. Guess I'll add some thin washers to my set of miscellaneous hardware too. As usual the perfect bolt is an AN3-16.5 :-) -- Craig Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of macleod@eagle.ca Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Craig: I had the same problem with my kit (not quick build). I replaced the AN3-15As with AN3-16As and used thin washers to get the required thread exposure. I am in the fortunate position of having lots of AN hardware on hand so these substitutions are easy for me. Mike waiting patiently for my Rotax FWFwd ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Although an AN3-16A might meet the > spec > I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure > enough length. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.