---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/10/08: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - 912 Service Bulletin (Joe Spencer) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Jim McBurney) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Condensation (Jim Fosse) 4. 07:46 AM - Re: LRI Probe Question (cookwithgas) 5. 08:05 AM - Re: 912 Service Bulletin (Mike Fothergill) 6. 08:16 AM - Re: Trailering (cookwithgas) 7. 08:38 AM - (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP (ruruny@aol.com) 8. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Dennis Shoup) 9. 08:45 AM - Re: N701N Completed and Flying (ruruny@aol.com) 10. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: Trailering (Jaybannist@cs.com) 11. 09:20 AM - 912 Service Bulletin (Joe Spencer) 12. 09:28 AM - Re: Trailering (cookwithgas) 13. 09:35 AM - Re: N701N Completed and Flying (cookwithgas) 14. 09:51 AM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Gig Giacona) 15. 09:54 AM - Re: 912 Service Bulletin (Gig Giacona) 16. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Trailering (Jaybannist@cs.com) 17. 10:29 AM - Re: (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP (John Marzulli) 18. 10:49 AM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Mack Kreizenbeck) 19. 11:33 AM - 912 Service Bulletin (Joe Spencer) 20. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: instrument panel (Juan Vega) 21. 01:07 PM - Re: *** SPAM *** Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Malcolm Hunt) 22. 01:18 PM - Another new CH701 builder here (Curt Thompson) 23. 01:21 PM - Re: *** SPAM *** Re: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit (Craig Payne) 24. 01:32 PM - Work Table - how level is level enough? (Curt Thompson) 25. 02:07 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (Art Gibeaut) 26. 02:09 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (ashontz) 27. 02:12 PM - Re: Another new CH701 builder here (LarryMcFarland) 28. 02:20 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (ashontz) 29. 02:21 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (LarryMcFarland) 30. 02:22 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (ashontz) 31. 02:25 PM - Re: Condensation (ashontz) 32. 02:31 PM - Re: Another new CH701 builder here (n801bh@netzero.com) 33. 02:32 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (n801bh@netzero.com) 34. 02:43 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (David Downey) 35. 02:57 PM - Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) (The Keeners) 36. 03:52 PM - Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 (Tim Juhl) 37. 04:12 PM - Re: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) (David Downey) 38. 04:59 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 39. 05:22 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (PatrickW) 40. 05:23 PM - Re: Another new CH701 builder here (Art Olechowski) 41. 05:53 PM - Re: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) (David Downey) 42. 05:55 PM - Best Tool For Doing Cutouts (Dave VanLanen) 43. 06:45 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (Art Olechowski) 44. 07:32 PM - Re: Best Tool For Doing Cutouts (ROBERT SCEPPA) 45. 07:52 PM - Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) (Christian Tremblay) 46. 08:33 PM - Re: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) (Terry Turnquist) 47. 09:07 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (Paul Mulwitz) 48. 09:11 PM - Re: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) (hansriet) 49. 09:42 PM - Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? (JohnDRead@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:24 AM PST US From: "Joe Spencer" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 Service Bulletin Anybody seen the latest Rotax Mandatory SB on the 912 mandating changing out a bunch of gearboxes? Looking for more info here...wondering if this is just more Rotax hand wringing/liability BS or if this one is real...I have one that's been in service for 1 Year 2 months with 117 hours on it. Let's see if there is any factory assistance on it. This is the kind of BS that drives people out of aviation. Joe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:48 AM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) I recommend the rudder workshop for plansbuilders for another reason also: While there, watch and talk with the folks that are working on parts for the kits; you can pick up lots of good hints/advice/methods for making various parts. Also, you'll get a better idea of the techniques they use (i.e., how they form ribs from flat sheets -- interesting). Check out their welding shop, too. Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk 90% done, 95% left ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:02 AM PST US From: "Jim Fosse" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Condensation I run a window fan on low speed 7/24. So far it has prevented condensation forming. Jim Fosse, N329F ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI Probe Question From: "cookwithgas" Pavel: I have one on my right wing mounted approximately where the pitot is mounted on the other wing. I made it exactly to the drawings and it works. I made one for Ron DeWeese in Georgia and he rounded everything off so it looks better and his works well also. I've only had one test flight but will be tweaking some things including the LRI system on Saturday if we don't get too much snow today. It is pretty cool to watch the needle rise as you gain speed. Here are a few pictures of my installation: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_1_07_LRI_ASL2.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_1_07_LRI_ASL.JPG I made probes for several other builders and some sent me pictures that I posted here: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/LRI.html You will notice that some are rounded off and some are not. I'll have more to report after some more flight testing. Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair Omaha, Nebraska www.cooknwithgas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157235#157235 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:05 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 Service Bulletin Just check your serial number. Mike CH-601HDS Joe Spencer wrote: > Anybody seen the latest Rotax Mandatory SB on the 912 mandating changing > out a bunch of gearboxes? Looking for more info here...wondering if this > is just more Rotax hand wringing/liability BS or if this one is real...I > have one that's been in service for 1 Year 2 months with 117 hours on > it. Let's see if there is any factory assistance on it. This is the kind > of BS that drives people out of aviation. > Joe > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trailering From: "cookwithgas" Hey Jay: If you haven't already purchased your trailer, consider your local EAA chapter. Our chapter in Omaha (EAA chapter 80) has a trailer that is used quite often. We keep it out at the hangar and it has hauled three projects recently that have flown for the first time. There are several other members getting close that have inquired about using the trailer. If your local chapter does not have a trailer, maybe you could talk them into buying one. It is a great investment for the chapter since it gets used often. Here's a picture of ours that I used in May to move my airplane out to the airport: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Finishing/5_5_07_Moving1.JPG I'd offer to lend it to you but I made the drive from Dallas to Omaha a few weeks ago and I don't recommend it. Take care, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157244#157244 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP From: ruruny@aol.com John, I don't remember any real issues with this, although I probably looked at it for quite a long time trying to figure the best way to do this.The rivets are very close together but the plans call for this. You can see in the pic, the one rivet is a little further apart from the rest so it would line up with other rivets and the other 3 are grouped so I would not hit the edge of the top fuselage skin and still had edge distance on the gusset. It is tight though. Picture attached. Brian Unruh Long Island, NY http://701builder.com When I drilled out the holes that connect 7F3-3SP with the diagonal tube the distance between the holes was unacceptable to me......Anyone else have this problem? I could not find anything in the archives about it. Thanks! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:20 AM PST US From: "Dennis Shoup" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Only if he's Santa Clause. On Jan 9, 2008 7:20 PM, kmccune wrote: > > [Laughing] > > > raymondj(at)frontiernet.n wrote: > > Dave, > > > > > > > > I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an > > airplane. :^) > > > > Raymond Julian > > Kettle River, MN > > > > "Hope for the best, > > but prepare for the worst." > > > > do not archive > > > > > > --- > > > Do not Archive > > -------- > Kevin > N701DZ Reserved > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157101#157101 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N701N Completed and Flying From: ruruny@aol.com Congratulations Jeff, Good luck on the first flight. She looks beutiful. Brian Unruh ...My Zenith CH701 received an FAA airworthiness certificate on December 17, 2007 with first flight following on Christmas Day. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:50 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Trailering Scott, That trailer looks ideal. I just couldn't find one like it. I wound up renting a 24' straight frame trailer with a hydraulic loft gate. We had th squeeze the main gear about 3" with a ratchet strap to get both wheels on the lift gate. The photo is not a great one, but it got a little too busy to be taking photos. Made the 35 mile trip in 1 hr., 20 min., with no damage. Thanks, Jay "cookwithgas" wrote: > >Hey Jay: > >If you haven't already purchased your trailer, consider your local EAA chapter. Our chapter in Omaha (EAA chapter 80) has a trailer that is used quite often. We keep it out at the hangar and it has hauled three projects recently that have flown for the first time. There are several other members getting close that have inquired about using the trailer. > >If your local chapter does not have a trailer, maybe you could talk them into buying one. It is a great investment for the chapter since it gets used often. Here's a picture of ours that I used in May to move my airplane out to the airport: > >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Finishing/5_5_07_Moving1.JPG > >I'd offer to lend it to you but I made the drive from Dallas to Omaha a few weeks ago and I don't recommend it. > >Take care, > >Scott Laughlin >www.cooknwithgas.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157244#157244 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:31 AM PST US From: "Joe Spencer" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 Service Bulletin Mike I do believe you missed the point of the post. Thanks anyway Joe ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trailering From: "cookwithgas" Very Niceah! I like the paint job! Are those stickers or did you paint the decals? Do you have more pictures? I'd like to see more! Thanks Jay. Scott. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157264#157264 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N701N Completed and Flying From: "cookwithgas" Congratulations Jeff! Great looking airplane - you should be proud. I was hoping to see some wheel chocks on those wheels ! [Wink] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157266#157266 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/beachyn701n_129.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) From: "Gig Giacona" I strongly disagree. The tail is where you need to start. Screw-up are on smaller pieces and the construction manual which you will still use after you have made the parts assumes that you build in rudder, horz. stabilizer, wings, fuselage order. I do agree about the table though. A good, solid and level table makes all the difference in the world. cgbrt(at)mondenet.com wrote: > Dave > Wings are a good choice to start. > Only advise, build a nice level 4'X12' table before you start assembly. > Carl > --- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157271#157271 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 912 Service Bulletin From: "Gig Giacona" Note a 912 guy but might your insurance look negatively at you not following a mandatory SB on the engine in your plane? jpspencer(at)cableone.net wrote: > Mike > I do believe you missed the point of the post. > Thanks anyway > Joe > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157272#157272 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:55 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Trailering Scott, Here are a few more photos. The "stars and bars", letters and nose art are vinyl decals. The rest of the paint is Rustoleum rattle can. I'll have more photos as I do the final assembly. The gross photo is what my forearms looked like throughout the building, especially the fuselage. Thus the name "Lil Bruiser". Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" "cookwithgas" wrote: > >Very Niceah! I like the paint job! Are those stickers or did you paint the decals? Do you have more pictures? I'd like to see more! > >Thanks Jay. > >Scott. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157264#157264 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:06 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: (CH-701) Anyone else have edge distance issues with 7F3-3SP Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I know that the designer can violate edge and spacing distances, but the rivet heads would have been overlapping in my case. The new part I fabricated has about the same spacing as this photo. Thanks again! On Jan 10, 2008 8:37 AM, wrote: > John, > > I don't remember any real issues with this, although I probably looked at > it > for quite a long time trying to figure the best way to do this.The rivets > are very close together > but the plans call for this. You can see in the pic, the one rivet is a > little further apart from > the rest so it would line up with other rivets and the other 3 are grouped > so I would not > hit the edge of the top fuselage skin and still had edge distance on the > gusset. > It is tight though. Picture attached. > > Brian Unruh > Long Island, NY > http://701builder.com > > When I drilled out the holes that connect 7F3-3SP with the diagonal tube > the > distance between the holes was unacceptable to me......Anyone else have > this problem? > I could not find anything in the archives > about it. > > Thanks! > ------------------------------ > ! > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:49 AM PST US From: "Mack Kreizenbeck" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar condensate and my 601 Larry, FYI, I built a metal over pole building (hangar) without any insulation 16 years ago. Shortly after completion, I noted moisture condensing and dripping onto the aircraft during the winter months. There were no leaks during rain storms nor under melting snow. Water has stained the wood purlins, etc... Latter, I found that I should have insulated the interior side of the metal roof cover at time of construction. Building scenario: This hangar is constructed in the high desert with lots of air movement due to small open areas and lack of insulation; painted asphalt floor and sliding doors -- no windows. After much discussion with contractors, building suppliers, etc., I discovered that (wind powered) rotating vent fans, strategically placed, solved the majority of the problem. Two 12 inch diameter fans takes care of 1600 square feet. These vents look like pillars with rotating vents -- sticking straight up from the roof. Senior moment prevents me from remembering the name. They are popular on commercial buildings, barns, etc... Mack 601XL/3300 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:51 AM PST US From: "Joe Spencer" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 Service Bulletin Gig What insurance? Joe ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:51 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: instrument panel Pete, What Pete is speaking of is that the Ingition system in a Jabiru is Electronic so you need some protion on the DC output or you will hear like in My radio, Alternator humming above 75% power throttle setting. With that said, There are solutions to fixing that problem, (ferite coiling, etc...) The option is the Microair which on a quality perspect still end up with the same quality on a lower quality radio stack. -----Original Message----- >From: Edward Moody II >Sent: Jan 9, 2008 8:18 PM >To: amyvega2005@earthlink.net >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: instrument panel > >Hi Juan, > > I am building a 601XL with a Jabiru 3300 and I am in the process of wiring the panel right now. I installed the Becker combo and Pete Krotje's opinion of the Becker transceiver is pretty low. That's probably why he's moving his stock at discount prices. He says that he has a lot of trouble with noise (ignition noise? maybe strobe noise? he didn't specify) in the Becker radio. What engine are you running and what is your experienc ewoth your Becker units? > >Dred ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:49 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Hunt" Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Craig The height of 6B9-4 was changed in the December 4th 2003 plans revision from 30mm to 35mm but the bolt length remained as AN3-15A and still shows this bolt on the latest set of plan that I have dated 04/04. I have used the '17A and it is just right so suggest that you ask Zenith to mail you 3 of the longer bolts as I consider they should have revised the bolt length at the time of the change in height of the part. My 3 penny worth but hope it helps. Best wishes Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans Builder England ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit > > Must change... > Did you get the hole gauge ??? > > SW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Craig Payne" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:21 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build > kit > > >> On my QBK the central pedal bearing 6B9-4 came installed along with the >> rudder pedals. I was looking at the lock nuts underneath the fuselage on >> the >> three AN3-15A bolts. Normal practice (and the Zenith construction >> standards, >> page 31) call for a minimum of two threads to protrude beyond the nut. On >> my >> QBK the end of the bolts do not protrude at all. In fact the tips of the >> bolts are probably recessed by two threads. I don't think any threads >> engage >> the Nylon portion of the lock nuts. Although an AN3-16A might meet the >> spec >> I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure >> enough length. >> >> -- Craig >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:04 PM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: Zenith-List: Another new CH701 builder here I'm jumping in! I've been lurking here (and the archives) for a few weeks. I bought the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD (highly recommend the DVD). I've decided to "plans build" a CH701. I plan to buy some of the parts that I don't want to make. I turned some (wooden) flanging dies on my father lathe a few weeks ago. I knocked out the wall behind the garage to make more room. I painted, added some more lights, and cleaned things up. I've built a 4ft x 16ft work table. I'm currently organizing my tools on a peg-board. I think I already have most of the tools I will need for this. I ordered the plans several weeks ago but they apparently have not shipped - it appears that ZAC is really busy. I've been an avionics engineer most of my career and really like to make things. I've built many radio controlled airplanes over the years. I got my PPL last year. Looking forward to this. Curt Redmond, WA, USA ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:51 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: *** SPAM *** Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Thanks. The 03/06 plans also show it as AN6-15A with the block being 35 mm tall. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Hunt Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit Craig The height of 6B9-4 was changed in the December 4th 2003 plans revision from 30mm to 35mm but the bolt length remained as AN3-15A and still shows this bolt on the latest set of plan that I have dated 04/04. I have used the '17A and it is just right so suggest that you ask Zenith to mail you 3 of the longer bolts as I consider they should have revised the bolt length at the time of the change in height of the part. My 3 penny worth but hope it helps. Best wishes Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans Builder England ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build kit > > Must change... > Did you get the hole gauge ??? > > SW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Craig Payne" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:21 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Something else to check on your 601XL quick build > kit > > >> On my QBK the central pedal bearing 6B9-4 came installed along with the >> rudder pedals. I was looking at the lock nuts underneath the fuselage on >> the >> three AN3-15A bolts. Normal practice (and the Zenith construction >> standards, >> page 31) call for a minimum of two threads to protrude beyond the nut. On >> my >> QBK the end of the bolts do not protrude at all. In fact the tips of the >> bolts are probably recessed by two threads. I don't think any threads >> engage >> the Nylon portion of the lock nuts. Although an AN3-16A might meet the >> spec >> I think these three bolts would have to be changed to AN3-17A to ensure >> enough length. >> >> -- Craig >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:04 PM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good enough or should I try to tweak it more. Curt p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I built the table. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:18 PM PST US From: Art Gibeaut Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? I built the same table last March as a 4x12, and got the same general variations. Have now completed both wings and I have no "twist" in either one. One note, recheck the table for flat and level between wings. Mine had changed a small amount requiring some shims, maybe due to seasonal changes. Good luck Art Gibeaut Erie, IL CH701 Wings and tail done. --- On Thu, 1/10/08, Curt Thompson wrote: > From: Curt Thompson > Subject: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, January 10, 2008, 3:29 PM > I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following > the plans here: > http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf > > I have a "water level" and it appears that it is > level to better than 1/4" > over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about > 1/8". Is this good > enough or should I try to tweak it more. > > Curt > > p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my > garage until I built > the table. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: "ashontz" I'd say it's in the air, not the floor. If it's really cold for awhile and everything in the hanger is cold and then all of a sudden it gets warm, the new warm air is going to condense on anything that's still cold. Probably best to seal any drafts in the hanger. The floor is probably not holding that much moisture, it's the warm air that gets in the hanger after a cold spell (or should I say during a warm spell) that's causing the condensation. Takes pretty extreme conditions too. About 9 years ago I got rust all over my tools in my garage, particularly large power tools that acted as a large heat sink, when the weather suddenly went from bitterly cold to like 60 degrees or so for a few days. You figure worse yet is all the airspace INSIDE the plane structure, like in the wings. In that case, I'd say your better off covering the entire plane to reduce the chance of air exchange on and inside the airframe. No different from a fuel tank that over time "gets water in the fuel." It's getting water in the fuel from cold/warm/cold cycles condensing water in the tank. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi guys, > > On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my > aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the > condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt > that would help. In conversation with another builder, he?d heard > putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar > would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and > condensing on the plane?s surfaces. I?m not a weatherman, and only have > a vague idea of what?s actually going on. There are probably many of us > looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or > practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these > wet periods? > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157306#157306 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:09 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another new CH701 builder here Welcome Curt, Sounds like you've got a head start on things. Plans building is challenging, but great fun. As one of the completed project scratch builders, I'll be interested in hearing of your progress along the way. The 701 is an interesting aircraft from that perspective. Three 701s are in my immediate area and one has been flying for a year now with a Stratus Subaru. Good luck and do stay in touch, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Curt Thompson wrote: > > Im jumping in! Ive been lurking here (and the archives) for a few > weeks. I bought the Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft DVD > (highly recommend the DVD). Ive decided to plans build a CH701. I > plan to buy some of the parts that I dont want to make. I turned some > (wooden) flanging dies on my father lathe a few weeks ago. I knocked > out the wall behind the garage to make more room. I painted, added > some more lights, and cleaned things up. Ive built a 4ft x 16ft work > table. Im currently organizing my tools on a peg-board. I think I > already have most of the tools I will need for this. I ordered the > plans several weeks ago but they apparently have not shipped it > appears that ZAC is really busy. > > Ive been an avionics engineer most of my career and really like to > make things. Ive built many radio controlled airplanes over the > years. I got my PPL last year. Looking forward to this. > > Curt > > Redmond, WA, USA > > * > * ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: "ashontz" I like this idea too. macleod(at)eagle.ca wrote: > Larry: > > As others have noted, if the temperature of the plane skins go below the > dew point (ie cold plane & warm moist air) then you will get condensation > on the plane (probably inside and outside). I am a metallurgical engineer > and can assure you that the plane's materials can easily take this wetness > without any ill effects. Venting the hanger will certainly help but > perhaps an easier solution would be to just put light bulbs in the plane > (one in each wing root and one in the fuse). That should be enough to > keep the interior and the outer surfaces above the dew point. I do this > in my unheated garage more for piece of mind with the electronics than > anything else. You only need to turn them on during the kind of weather > we have had in the past few days (sudden warming where the moist outside > air is much warmer than the temperature inside the hanger or if there is a > chance of fog). > > Turned colder today so I turned the lights off. > > I use 60 watt bulbs. > > Mike > 601XL waiting patiently for the Rotax FWFwd > > > > Are there any good suggestions or > > practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these > > wet periods? > > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157311#157311 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:24 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? Curt, Flat is probably more important here and the 1/8" irregularity of your surface will average out fine. The level condition is one you can shim to when it becomes necessary to "go level". This is only necessary sometimes when you're making structural assy alignments. Tip: go for level once and make shims that you can place under the table casters and otherwise hang shims on the nail of the legs that need them. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Curt Thompson wrote: > I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: > http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf > > I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" > over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good > enough or should I try to tweak it more. > > Curt > > p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I built > the table. > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? From: "ashontz" Sounds fine. You're going to be building the wing on shims anyway due to the curvature and the clecoes when you're done the first side so level up the wing structure on the shims then. Even so, the more level the table the easier it is to work on in general for all kinds of stuff. Curt.Thompson(at)verizon. wrote: > I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: > http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf > > I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" > over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good > enough or should I try to tweak it more. > > Curt > > p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I built > the table. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157314#157314 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Condensation From: "ashontz" I've never had a humidity meter (I forget the actual name) in my garage, but after painting the floor, it just seemed less humid. Could have been the unpainted floor. Painted floors just look nice too. Can't be it for $50 from Home Depot, including sprinkles no less, although I couldn't find the sprinkles at Home Depot, they didn't carry them, Lowes did. Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Larry, > > In my experience, I have found that there are many causes of wet concrete slabs. In mysterious instances, a concrete slab will attract moisture even where there seems to be none. Moisture barriers are not always used, because it keeps the freshly placed concrete from giving up its moisture uniformly through the top and bottom, resulting in slab curling. To get around this, sometimes there is a moisture barrier and a layer of sand on top of it to promote proper drying of the slab. But a concrete slab with no moisture barrier beneath it might result in a damp slab, but not necessarily a damp atmosphere. Condensation on objects above the slab result from a very damp atmosphere and very cold temperatures. The real cure is interior climate control, but as has been previously suggested, ventilation is the most expedient cure. I would try that first. > > Jay in Dallas (Retired Architect) > 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157317#157317 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:22 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another new CH701 builder here Welcome Curt. This list will be a great source for advice, comments and general cheerl eading throughout your building process. It sounds lke you have configur ed your shop area correctly. Building a plane is a big adventure, flying it for the first time is "Priceless" do not archive and welcome to the group Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Curt Thompson" wrote: I=92m jumping in! I=92ve been lurking here (and the archives) for a few weeks. I bought the =93Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft=94 D VD (highly recommend the DVD). I=92ve decided to =93plans build=94 a CH 701. I plan to buy some of the parts that I don=92t want to make. I tu rned some (wooden) flanging dies on my father lathe a few weeks ago. I knocked out the wall behind the garage to make more room. I painted, ad ded some more lights, and cleaned things up. I=92ve built a 4ft x 16ft work table. I=92m currently organizing my tools on a peg-board. I thin k I already have most of the tools I will need for this. I ordered the plans several weeks ago but they apparently have not shipped ' it appe ars that ZAC is really busy. I=92ve been an avionics engineer most of my career and really like to ma ke things. I=92ve built many radio controlled airplanes over the years. I got my PPL last year. Looking forward to this. Curt Redmond, WA, USA ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== === _____________________________________________________________ Click now for great GMAT prep courses and watch your scores soar! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s4ZcacE0wB94CC0vQI 7SrnYukUnZrXg0Dy6j6VG8GFHXn2C/ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:50 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? Flatness is more importent then level, if you are within 1/8" you are go ing to be in great shape for all the sub assemblies built on it. Enjoy the process.. !!! do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Curt Thompson" wrote: I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/ 4" over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good enough or should I try to tweak it more. Curt p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I buil t the table. _____________________________________________________________ Start a career as a pharmacy assistant. Click here for more information .. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vg0IVPvbKuTdKA1gno IWTPU7eVUeeKRY28drhYyAblyhYTY/ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:54 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? my opinion only: Assuming that you have a usefully stiff deck on the table, I think that the table needs to be flat within a 1/16" or less over the length and no measurable twist or warp in the short direction. For a sheet metal or wooden plane I do not think level is real important. Make sure that you have enough legs to adequately overcome any table related flatness issues. One way to manage the final positoin requirements is to mix bondo or something similar and glob it around the point where the bottom of the legs all contact the floor/shim. In the case where the table bows up, shim to flat withbags of cement/equivalent as ballast. When the bondo cures thetable will stay where you put it. Caveat: if the slab or deck the table is mounted to the tablel will move with it - so keep that inmind as you set it and tend to forget it; re-establishing flat is a periodic and important task. The Bondo simply breaks from the floor with a light side impact or two from a sledge hammer and the setting can be corrected with more shims, less shims, and a new blob of bondo. Curt Thompson wrote: I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good enough or should I try to tweak it more. Curt p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I built the table. Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:41 PM PST US From: The Keeners Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) Dear Listers: I'm trying to finish up my elevator on the Zodiac. The shape of the elevator trim tab supplied with the tail kit looks oval when looking at it from the side. The plans/pix show a triangular shape. Has anyone else encountered this? I don't have a bending brake, so I don't think I'll try to fix this on my own. The oval shape (vs. the triangular shape) will not allow for rivets to fit where you attach the hinge. Any suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you. Forest K., Rocklin, CA Trying to finish elevator/Wing Kit in garage N601FK (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601 From: "Tim Juhl" Our airport recently built two rows of T hangars with concrete floors and bifold doors. In the spring every hangar occupant was complaining about the condensation problem you mention. My Champ was literally dripping and everything in the hangar was wet. It was simply the interaction of a cold steel structure with slightly warmer moist air. The solution was that we cut holes near the top of the adjoining walls in each hangar and on the end of the hangars installed large vent fans controlled by a humidistat. When the humidity rose near the condensation point the fans turned on and moved the air around. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157336#157336 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:20 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) Hi Forrest; can you send an image of the end of the folded part with a 6 inch scale in it? That will help make sure that we are on the same page. Dear Listers: I'm trying to finish up my elevator on the Zodiac. The shape of the elevator trim tab supplied with the tail kit looks oval when looking at it from the side. The plans/pix show a triangular shape. Has anyone else encountered this? I don't have a bending brake, so I don't think I'll try to fix this on my own. The oval shape (vs. the triangular shape) will not allow for rivets to fit where you attach the hinge. Any suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you. Forest K., Rocklin, CA Trying to finish elevator/Wing Kit in garage N601FK (Reserved) Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:10 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? I spent 40 bucks and bought 2 4x4x12 1/4 inch thick angle and when you build the wings they work great on the table because you don't have to worry about shims under the wing because the front and rear spars are resting on the angle. All you have to do is level the angle and the table didn't matter. It is a pain in the ass to work on the wing while they are sitting on blocks on the table, on the angle they don't move. Then the angle was used to build a fixture to build the plane on until I installed the mains. Jeff 1 601xl flying W/Corvair 1 601xl going to paint tomorrow W/Corvair 1 601xl ready for turtle deck Corvair built ready to install 1 601xl on order Corvair being built Finishing them all.......Priceless!!!!! In a message dated 1/10/2008 2:44:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, planecrazydld@yahoo.com writes: Curt Thompson wrote: I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good enough or should I try to tweak it more. Curt **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Work Table - how level is level enough? From: "PatrickW" Try to get it as level as you can. When your table is level, then it can be used as a "reference" when you want the bottom and the top of workpieces to be level. Like putting a level across the top of a fuselage section, for example. You'll already know the bottom piece that's resting on the table is level... Once you've got it as level as you can, you can test for flatness with marbles. All that being said, it doesn't have to be perfect. Anybody with the ambition to even think about building an airplane will probably do a pretty good job of making a workbench, and it's probably going to be good enough for our low-mach aircraft. :-) Patrick XL/Corvair N63PZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157351#157351 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:17 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another new CH701 builder here Curt, Great to hear that someone else is joining the journey of scratch-building the 701 and coincidentally with the same career. I plan to also purchase some of the parts from Zenith such as the hardware kit, windshield, bubble doors and possibly the main gear. I have the plans and I'm currently procuring tools and materials. do not archive Art --- Curt Thompson wrote: > I'm jumping in! I've been lurking here (and the archives) for a few weeks. > I bought the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD (highly > recommend the DVD). I've decided to "plans build" a CH701. I plan to buy > some of the parts that I don't want to make. I turned some (wooden) > flanging dies on my father lathe a few weeks ago. I knocked out the wall > behind the garage to make more room. I painted, added some more lights, and > cleaned things up. I've built a 4ft x 16ft work table. I'm currently > organizing my tools on a peg-board. I think I already have most of the > tools I will need for this. I ordered the plans several weeks ago but they > apparently have not shipped - it appears that ZAC is really busy. > > I've been an avionics engineer most of my career and really like to make > things. I've built many radio controlled airplanes over the years. I got > my PPL last year. Looking forward to this. > > Curt > Redmond, WA, USA > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:36 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) forgot to verify if it was an XL. I do not see any useful resources on the old Zodiac on the Zenith site... Dear Listers: I'm trying to finish up my elevator on the Zodiac. The shape of the elevator trim tab supplied with the tail kit looks oval when looking at it from the side. The plans/pix show a triangular shape. Has anyone else encountered this? I don't have a bending brake, so I don't think I'll try to fix this on my own. The oval shape (vs. the triangular shape) will not allow for rivets to fit where you attach the hinge. Any suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you. Forest K., Rocklin, CA Trying to finish elevator/Wing Kit in garage N601FK (Reserved) Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:48 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Best Tool For Doing Cutouts What are other builders finding as the best tool for doing cutouts, such as access holes, trim tab cutouts, etc.? I do not use the Wiss snips because they tend to stretch the metal. I have an OLFA knife, which works great when cutting out flat stock, where the material can be backed up, but I can't figure out how to safely use it on a structure where the material cannot easily be backed up. I am currently using a Dremel tool with a cutting disk. It works well but it is risky, as the cutting wheel can "catch" on the material. This happened to me today, and put a slight abrasion on the skin - luckily it was not serious. Any advice would be appreciated, even if it means I gotta buy another tool. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen 601XL - Elevator ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? Curt, As most have mentioned flatness is a necessity as well as checking for twist lengthwise. One simple method to confirm this is by tightly criss-crossing two strings at some consistent height from corner to corner over the length of the table and measuring the space at the intersection of the strings. How much of a gap is acceptable? Hell I don't know, I just made it as small possible (strings attempting to slightly diverge each other). Art Scratch'in 701 --- Curt Thompson wrote: > I've built a 4ft by 16ft work table roughly following the plans here: > http://www.ch601.org/tools/Visio-12%20foot%20work%20table.pdf > > I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" > over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good > enough or should I try to tweak it more. > > Curt > > p.s. I didn't realize how much slope there was to my garage until I built > the table. > > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:20 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Best Tool For Doing Cutouts > I'm using a stepdrill to start the hole, then use > aviation snips. If thats too tough, then use a > series of small holes with a drill bit close to the > edge, then use a file to finish it....Do not archive --- Dave VanLanen wrote: > What are other builders finding as the best tool for > doing cutouts, such as > access holes, trim tab cutouts, etc.? I do not use > the Wiss snips because > they tend to stretch the metal. I have an OLFA > knife, which works great > when cutting out flat stock, where the material can > be backed up, but I > can't figure out how to safely use it on a structure > where the material > cannot easily be backed up. I am currently using a > Dremel tool with a > cutting disk. It works well but it is risky, as the > cutting wheel can > "catch" on the material. This happened to me today, > and put a slight > abrasion on the skin - luckily it was not serious. > > Any advice would be appreciated, even if it means I > gotta buy another tool. > > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen > 601XL - Elevator > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:15 PM PST US From: Christian Tremblay Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Dave, The question of scratch build is not only a question of money. It's involve a lot of effort, not only on tool fabrication and investment on equipment, but also on studying more deeper technical skill. Those kind of project take also more time investment and also more satisfaction in the building process. Visit my web site to understand some implication of this kind of project. Christian Tremblay A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan http://www.zodiac640.com/ -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de DaveC Envoy: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:14 PM : zenith-list@matronics.com Objet: Zenith-List: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud) Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure. So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] Is it a pride thing? A personal learning thing? A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? Is it that much cheaper? -------- Dave Alvin, Texas CH-701 wanna-be-soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:54 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) David, you might try to square up the flat surfaces of the trim flap by placing a piece of flat stock on the rounded surface and compress carefully on your workbench or table with a couple of large c-clamps. You should be able to finesse it into shape. Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans David Downey wrote: forgot to verify if it was an XL. I do not see any useful resources on the old Zodiac on the Zenith site... Dear Listers: I'm trying to finish up my elevator on the Zodiac. The shape of the elevator trim tab supplied with the tail kit looks oval when looking at it from the side. The plans/pix show a triangular shape. Has anyone else encountered this? I don't have a bending brake, so I don't think I'll try to fix this on my own. The oval shape (vs. the triangular shape) will not allow for rivets to fit where you attach the hinge. Any suggestions are much appreciated. Thank you. Forest K., Rocklin, CA Trying to finish elevator/Wing Kit in garage N601FK --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:01 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? Hi Curt, After several missteps, I made what I think is the ideal workbench for building airplanes. The top is flat to within 1 mm across the entire work surface. Oddly, the work surface is not a normal table top. Rather it is an array of wood 2x4s with their top edges aligned with each. Here is a picture of the bench in use on a Zodiac XL wing. [] The procedure for making the bench started with a normal particle board top 4x12 table reinforced with various strips of wood underneath including full length 2x4s. Then the top 2x4's are laid across the bench and their position marked. A laser level was used to make the ultra-flat working surface. First the laser level was used to project a beam over the top of the 2.4's. A white ruler was used to measure the distance from the laser beam to the table top and the distance marked on the table. 4 or 5 measurements were taken along the length of each 2x4. Then shims were cut from wood on a table saw. After doing a little arithmetic (subtracting a constant from each measurement) a shim matching the required adjustment was placed at each measurement location under the 2x4. Then each 2x4 was glued and bolted to the particle board top. The notches near the ends of the 2x4s are used to allow normal length screws to hold the 2x4 to the table. You can also see some small blocks screwed to the top of some of the 2x4s to fix the wing position so you can work on it without it moving. One final step was to mark the leg locations on the shop floor. This allows the table to be returned to the place where the measurements were made if it is moved. The marking is just a matter of using a rattle can of spray paint around each leg on the floor. This sounds complicated, but you can probably build such a table top faster than you can read this explanation. You get a nearly perfect work surface for building your parts. The elevated work surface allows Clecos to be installed while still maintaining the flat work surface. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 01:29 PM 1/10/2008, you wrote: >I have a "water level" and it appears that it is level to better than 1/4" >over 16 feet. It is probably flat to within about 1/8". Is this good >enough or should I try to tweak it more. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac Elevator Trim Tab (kit) From: "hansriet" I had the same problem with the aileron trim tab. The horn in my hand didn't resemble the drawing at all. Called Zenith and Caleb emailed me a new drawing right away. They changed the horn slightly. This might be the case with the elevator as well. Best to give them a call. Hans Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157392#157392 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:43 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work Table - how level is level enough? Hi Curt: Check in the Zenith Construction Standards - there is a suggestion as to how flat or twisted aircraft components should be. I would make the bench flat to half that amount to give a little margin. Level is not so much an issue. do not archive John Read **************Start the year off right. 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