---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/21/08: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:22 AM - VGs (HOWADO1@comcast.net) 2. 02:30 AM - VGs (THOMAS SMALL) 3. 03:00 AM - Re: 6.4 MM reamer (Gerald Scampoli) 4. 06:41 AM - Cool new Zenair plane (John Davis) 5. 06:41 AM - Cool new Zenair plane.... (John Davis) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: VGs (LRM) 7. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (George Harris) 8. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? (David Barth) 9. 08:10 AM - Re: Rib forming questions (David Barth) 10. 08:42 AM - Re: Cool new Zenair plane (Jeff) 11. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? (Curt Thompson) 12. 09:01 AM - Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (stepinwolf) 13. 09:04 AM - Part Stoutness (Art Olechowski) 14. 09:06 AM - Re: VGs () 15. 09:06 AM - Yarde Metals (Art Olechowski) 16. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (Jaybannist@cs.com) 17. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? (Gary Boothe) 18. 09:21 AM - Re: Cool new Zenair plane (Art Olechowski) 19. 09:38 AM - Re: Holding Nose up (Stanley Challgren) 20. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? (Art Olechowski) 21. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com) 22. 10:23 AM - Re: VGs (Tim Juhl) 23. 10:42 AM - Re: VGs (Bill Berle) 24. 10:55 AM - Re: Part Stoutness (Bill Berle) 25. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: VGs () 26. 12:01 PM - First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (eddies) 27. 12:20 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (MacDonald Doug) 28. 02:03 PM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (n801bh@netzero.com) 29. 02:03 PM - Monday Evening Chat (George Race) 30. 02:29 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (John Marzulli) 31. 03:17 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (Gary Gower) 32. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (James Sagerser) 33. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (John Marzulli) 34. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (James Sagerser) 35. 08:58 PM - Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 (norriedh) 36. 08:58 PM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (Art Olechowski) 37. 09:03 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (Art Olechowski) 38. 09:51 PM - Re: VGs (Les Goldner) 39. 09:55 PM - Re: VGs (Les Goldner) 40. 10:01 PM - Re: VGs -Why not to install them (Les Goldner) 41. 10:05 PM - Re: VGs -Why not to install them (Les Goldner) 42. 10:17 PM - Re: VGs-why not to use them! (Les Goldner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:03 AM PST US From: HOWADO1@comcast.net Subject: Zenith-List: VGs Les Goldner, have you installed the VGs on the elevator? Howard Carter ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:07 AM PST US From: "THOMAS SMALL" Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > have you installed the VGs on the elevator? do not archive ...might you mean stab? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:50 AM PST US From: Gerald Scampoli Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 6.4 MM reamer McMaster Carr #832A79 .252" Gerry Scampoli Hingham, MA 601XL - Corvair From: EROC@bright.net Subject: Zenith-List: 6.4 MM reamer Can anyone on the list give me a source of supply for a 6.4 MM ( .252 dia ) reamer used to ream the holes on the dual stick brackets . Thanks in advance. _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.-You IM, we g ive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:20 AM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Zenith-List: Cool new Zenair plane From aero-news.net: Sebring '08: Advanced Aero Partners With Zenair To Develop Vortex http://aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID021348-09b5-468c-8d42-07bb93228c87&#d ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:20 AM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Zenith-List: Cool new Zenair plane.... From aero-news.net: ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:27 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs Elevator is correct. They go on the lower leading edge of the elevator. They are effective in lift for a nose up attitude. JG can give you the exact location. LRM www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "THOMAS SMALL" Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 4:25 AM Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > > do not archive > > ...might you mean stab? > > > -- > 269.19.7/1234 - Release Date: 1/20/2008 2:15 PM > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:13 AM PST US From: "George Harris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) That has to be the sharpest looking 701 I've seen. The cowl really perks it up and I like the way you subdued the angular bottom lines with paint. Very, very nice. -George ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Sagerser" Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) > > Will do. Thanks you. Jim > > > On Jan 19, 2008, at 10:37 AM, kmccune wrote: > >> >> Beautiful plane Jim! >> >> Please do keep us posted, while I can't afford the Jab I still like to >> find out more about it. >> >> I also like to idea of the Pegastol wings, but I don't know if they are >> worth (in my case) the extra time, weight and cost. But they sure are >> cool! >> >> Kevin >> >> -------- >> Kevin >> N701DZ Reserved >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159237#159237 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 269.19.7/1232 - Release Date: 1/18/2008 7:32 PM > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:13 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? LOL Olfa King? Thanks for that Scott but a bit overstated. I have used a router for cutting as stated here and it works well when making many of the same parts blanks. You have to make a set of cutting blocks. Much like the form blocks but with the added material for the flanges. It takes a bit of planning since you will want to use the same tooling holes in the cutting blocks as you do in the form blocks. Then you can rough cut your parts blanks, stack 4 or so in the cutting blocks sandwich and tighten them down. Then use the router to trim off all the excess material down to the edge of the cutting blocks. After getting the cutting blocks set up,we made a complete set of 701 nose rib blanks in just a few minutes this way. And of course if you do a good job on your cutting blocks and form blocks, the ribs will be identical. We used a router table but you could just as easily bolt the cutting blocks right through your table making the routing very easy. Always messy as hell but very easy. Eyewear is ESSENTIAL (and a hat unless you like Al chips in your hair) and A curtain of some sort for your cutting area will prevent getting Al chips in every sq. mm of your workshop. This process of course make more sense if you are making a project with a friend and can get more use out of your cutting blocks. Just my 2 cents. David --- cookwithgas wrote: > > > > Curt.Thompson(at)verizon. wrote: > > Scott, > > > > Yes, I was thinking about making rib cutting > templates like yours (yours are > > for a CH601, correct?). Could I make the > templates a little thicker and use > > a laminating cutter bit and router to cut the > aluminum blanks? > > > > Curt > > > Curt: I cut everything out with snips. My good > friend David Barth always laughed at me every time > he saw a picture like this: > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_7_04_BottomFuse.JPG > or this: > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_9_04_FirewallCutting.JPG > > That's because David is the "Olfa-king." I never > could figure out how to use the Olfa knife. > > I enjoyed the careful work of cutting out a perfect > part. Plus, it gets you ready for all those awkward > cuts you have to make later when everything is > assembled and you have to change something! > > I think the router idea would make a huge mess but > to each his own. > > Good luck, > > Scott Laughlin > 601XL/Corvair Finished & Flying > Did I just say Finished & Flying? Let me pinch > myself. > > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:27 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rib forming questions Hi Glenn. Gary is bang on with his advice re: the clearance of the flange. Gary: I loved your idea of using the dowel. I have never tried that method but sure will next time. David --- Gary Boothe wrote: > The clearance referred to should be good at 1-2mm. > The important thing is > that the rib flange does not touch the spar flange, > and there is not so much > gap that you lose your edge clearance on your last > rivet. > > If the ends are high on your ribs, just put a large > dowel under the rib > (like a closet hanger rod) and roll the rib back and > forth with gentle > pressure. The rib will flatten out very easily. > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, > Tail done, wings done, working on c-section > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:33 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cool new Zenair plane Do not archive This is confusing in that the headline says Zenair and the article says AMD (Mathieu Heintz). It does mention ZAC or any other Zenith companies. Evidently Zenair is being used as a generic name and ZAC, Zenith in Canada, CAN-ZAC, Flightcrafters, and Quality Aircraft are not involved, just AMD in Georgia. If anybody knows the actual case, please let us know. The Heintz community has grown to the point that I can't keep the companies straight. Jeff Davidson _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Davis Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Cool new Zenair plane >From aero-news.net: Sebring '08: Advanced Aero Partners With Zenair To Develop Vortex http://aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID021348-09b5-468c-8d42-07bb93 228c87 &#d ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:09 AM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? I plan to set up a camping tent in my garage. Then I'll do the router cuts in the tent. Then I'll shake out the filings when I'm done. Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? LOL Olfa King? Thanks for that Scott but a bit overstated. I have used a router for cutting as stated here and it works well when making many of the same parts blanks. You have to make a set of cutting blocks. Much like the form blocks but with the added material for the flanges. It takes a bit of planning since you will want to use the same tooling holes in the cutting blocks as you do in the form blocks. Then you can rough cut your parts blanks, stack 4 or so in the cutting blocks sandwich and tighten them down. Then use the router to trim off all the excess material down to the edge of the cutting blocks. After getting the cutting blocks set up,we made a complete set of 701 nose rib blanks in just a few minutes this way. And of course if you do a good job on your cutting blocks and form blocks, the ribs will be identical. We used a router table but you could just as easily bolt the cutting blocks right through your table making the routing very easy. Always messy as hell but very easy. Eyewear is ESSENTIAL (and a hat unless you like Al chips in your hair) and A curtain of some sort for your cutting area will prevent getting Al chips in every sq. mm of your workshop. This process of course make more sense if you are making a project with a friend and can get more use out of your cutting blocks. Just my 2 cents. David ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) From: "stepinwolf" I would be very happy to be able to see the 701, but sadly the link that is shown, does not work, and leads to an error message. Stepinwolf :( -------- Live each day, as if it was your last Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159561#159561 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:45 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness List, Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? If so which ones? Art Scrathin 701 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:16 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority during the low speed flaring of the airplane. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "THOMAS SMALL" Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > > do not archive > > ...might you mean stab? > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:48 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Zenith-List: Yarde Metals List, Has anyone on the list had a bad past experience with ordering from Yarde Metals such as receiving severely scratched material that requires re-work before it can be used? Art Scratchin 701 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:51 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) Enter the link url manually, using the @ sign instead of (at). "stepinwolf" wrote: > >I would be very happy to be able to see the 701, but sadly the link that is shown, does not work, and leads to an error message. > >Stepinwolf :( > >-------- >Live each day, as if it was your last > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159561#159561 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:27 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? I did my center section ribs all at once with this method...worked very well! Don't forget to wear hearing protection so that you don't know what a p.i.a you are to your neighbors (plausible deniability). Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Curt Thompson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? I plan to set up a camping tent in my garage. Then I'll do the router cuts in the tent. Then I'll shake out the filings when I'm done. Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? LOL Olfa King? Thanks for that Scott but a bit overstated. I have used a router for cutting as stated here and it works well when making many of the same parts blanks. You have to make a set of cutting blocks. Much like the form blocks but with the added material for the flanges. It takes a bit of planning since you will want to use the same tooling holes in the cutting blocks as you do in the form blocks. Then you can rough cut your parts blanks, stack 4 or so in the cutting blocks sandwich and tighten them down. Then use the router to trim off all the excess material down to the edge of the cutting blocks. After getting the cutting blocks set up,we made a complete set of 701 nose rib blanks in just a few minutes this way. And of course if you do a good job on your cutting blocks and form blocks, the ribs will be identical. We used a router table but you could just as easily bolt the cutting blocks right through your table making the routing very easy. Always messy as hell but very easy. Eyewear is ESSENTIAL (and a hat unless you like Al chips in your hair) and A curtain of some sort for your cutting area will prevent getting Al chips in every sq. mm of your workshop. This process of course make more sense if you are making a project with a friend and can get more use out of your cutting blocks. Just my 2 cents. David ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:44 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cool new Zenair plane John, Interesting design, can't wait to see it up close at Oshkosh sometime in the future. do not archive Art --- John Davis wrote: > From aero-news.net: > > > Sebring '08: Advanced Aero Partners With Zenair To Develop Vortex > > > http://aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID021348-09b5-468c-8d42-07bb93228c87&#d > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:10 AM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Holding Nose up On Jan 19, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Terry Phillips wrote: > > Stan > > Thank you very much for your post. No flames here. I think you're > onto something good. > > It really got me to thinking about the aerodynamics of the > horizontal stabilizer. Please indulge me while I ramble about this. > > ZAC told me that the stabilizer airfoil is symetrical. Since the > stabilizer exerts a downward force to balance the moment of the > engine around the aircraft cg, the symetrical airfoil must be angled > slightly downward to generate a downward force with neutral trim. > After touchdown, with the nose up, the stabilizer would be angled > upward, generating an upward force that would rotate the A/C around > the mains, pushing the nose down. So, to hold the nose up after > touchdown, you would need to pull the stick aft, forcing the > elevator up. And, what Stan is saying, is that VGs on the underside > of the stabilizer will increase up-elevator effectiveness > (apparently) by reducing boundary layer separation on the bottom of > the elevator. That all makes sense to me now. > > So, I would like to ask Stan the usual questions, how many VG's? > Where are they on the stab? Do you have any photos? Thank you for > posting your experience. > > This is a very interesting subject. Terry: How many VG's? I believe there were 42 VG's on each side. I used the same spacing and template on the underside of the stabilizer as I did on the wing so there would have been about 2.5" between them. They were placed at 10% of the chord. The below photos are of the wing. Guess my neck was already stiff from working upside down applying them so I skipped the photos. Stan Any Photos? ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:36 AM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? Curt, Excellent idea, thanks for sharing I'll do the same. do not archive Art --- Curt Thompson wrote: > > I plan to set up a camping tent in my garage. Then I'll do the router cuts > in the tent. Then I'll shake out the filings when I'm done. > > Curt > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:02 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Autocad drawings for CH701 form blocks? > > > LOL Olfa King? Thanks for that Scott but a bit > overstated. > > I have used a router for cutting as stated here and it > works well when making many of the same parts blanks. > You have to make a set of cutting blocks. Much like > the form blocks but with the added material for the > flanges. It takes a bit of planning since you will > want to use the same tooling holes in the cutting > blocks as you do in the form blocks. > > Then you can rough cut your parts blanks, stack 4 or > so in the cutting blocks sandwich and tighten them > down. Then use the router to trim off all the excess > material down to the edge of the cutting blocks. After > getting the cutting blocks set up,we made a complete > set of 701 nose rib blanks in just a few minutes this > way. And of course if you do a good job on your > cutting blocks and form blocks, the ribs will be > identical. > > We used a router table but you could just as easily > bolt the cutting blocks right through your table > making the routing very easy. Always messy as hell > but very easy. Eyewear is ESSENTIAL (and a hat unless > you like Al chips in your hair) and A curtain of some > sort for your cutting area will prevent getting Al > chips in every sq. mm of your workshop. > > This process of course make more sense if you are > making a project with a friend and can get more use > out of your cutting blocks. > > Just my 2 cents. > David > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:13 AM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) Hey Jim: Very nice. Too bad you didn't like yellow/black. I really like your performance numbers Lynn **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VGs From: "Tim Juhl" Who is the VG manufacturer? Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159591#159591 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:19 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs VG's on the elevator and/or stabilizer can give you more powerful pitch control. Fantastic for low speed flare, rotation, etc. Now guess what all that extra power can cause at high speed? Pulling your control stick back can now create much higher G loadings (meaning stress on the wing) than it could before. VG's on the wings also increase the attainable AOA, which means that VG's on the wing can also create a higher amount of stress on the wing. If you want to put VG's anywhere on the airplane, IMHO it is absolutely necessary to talk with Mr. Heintz and make sure there will not be a dangerous side-effect from it. Bill the New Guy > > Elevator is correct. They go on the lower leading edge of the > elevator. They are effective in lift for a nose up attitude. JG can > give you the exact location. > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:59 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the largest part.... increasing the thickness will add some amount weight. From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness. The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x 3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as they are for the ribs). Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations (I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs. Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of where they are needed most. Top of the wings behind the spars are my first suspicion. Bill the New Guy > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? > If so which ones? > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:18 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: VGs http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php?id=28 check them out, these guys have been doing alot of testing of their VGs on the 701. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Juhl" Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VGs > > Who is the VG manufacturer? > > Tim > > Do not archive > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159591#159591 > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 From: "eddies" Hi Fellow Listers, After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took to the air for the first time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a slightly heavy right wing. Details of engine temps, speeds and stall characteristics are on my website; http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger after it's first flight (no sound); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special thanks to Scott Laughlin, Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web sites which where always very helpful when I got stuck. Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it, Eddie Seve :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159615#159615 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:29 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area immediately behind the baggage compartment is still going to oil can so I will probably add another diagnal brace there once I'm flying. Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so cannot comment on how stiff they will be. Doug MacDonald NW Ontario, Canada Scratch building CH-701 Working on wiring the inst panel Do not archive > List, > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend > increasing material thickness of any particular > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning > etc...? > If so which ones? > > > Art > Scrathin 701 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:07 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 Congrats to you. The smile will last for a few days too. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "eddies" wrote: Hi Fellow Listers, After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took t o the air for the first time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a slightly heavy right wing. Details of engine temps, speeds and stall characteristics are on my website; http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger afte r it's first flight (no sound); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special tha nks to Scott Laughlin, Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web sites which where always very helpful when I got stuck. Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it, Eddie Seve :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159615#159615 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click here for project management tools. Easy to implement, adopt and u se. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4t1B7ZR6GG4NGHwzjjd R5whu9FgX3uIwbsZVqrvyeriF3RxQ/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:07 PM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Monday Evening Chat Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM EST http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George CH-701 N73EX (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:59 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise reduction. http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4" sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone. As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin. Good luck! On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug wrote: > > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting > on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are > going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal > brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still > going to oil can so I will probably add another > diagnal brace there once I'm flying. > > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so > cannot comment on how stiff they will be. > > Doug MacDonald > NW Ontario, Canada > Scratch building CH-701 > Working on wiring the inst panel > > Do not archive > > > List, > > > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend > > increasing material thickness of any particular > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning > > etc...? > > If so which ones? > > > > > > Art > > Scrathin 701 > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:03 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness We have 150+ hrs of fun flying in our 701, the wings and fuselage built as in the plans, yes, it will oilcan if you are not a good pilot :-) oilcanning is the best "sound alarm" to "shout" to the pilot that the ball is off center :-) The 701 is no diferent to any other airplane, the lighter the better it flys. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S Building a 601 XL Jab 3300 Bill Berle wrote: The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the largest part.... increasing the thickness will add some amount weight. >From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness. The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x 3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as they are for the ribs). Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations (I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs. Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of where they are needed most. Top of the wings behind the spars are my first suspicion. Bill the New Guy > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? > If so which ones? > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:44 PM PST US From: James Sagerser Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) Thank you and thanks to all who have commented on "Buzz". I called Pete at Jabiru USA today to see if I could change my prop to a climb prop. My current prop os a 64/45. It's easy to blow right past VNe if I'm not careful. Within 5 minutes Pete had contacted Sensenich and has another prop, a 68/36 on it's way. My gear has been extended 4" so should have plenty of clearance. Am eager to see how this works out. Anyway, thanks again. Jim On Jan 21, 2008, at 10:39 AM, IFLYSMODEL@aol.com wrote: > Hey Jim: Very nice. Too bad you didn't like yellow/black. I really > like your performance numbers > Lynn > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:46 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) By changing props, how much time is being added to the testing by the DAR? DO NOT ARCHIVE! On Jan 21, 2008 5:09 PM, James Sagerser wrote: > Thank you and thanks to all who have commented on "Buzz". > I called Pete at Jabiru USA today to see if I could change my prop to a > climb prop. My current prop os a 64/45. It's easy to blow right past VNe > if I'm not careful. Within 5 minutes Pete had contacted Sensenich and has > another prop, a 68/36 on it's way. My gear has been extended 4" so should > have plenty of clearance. Am eager to see how this works out. Anyway, > thanks again. Jim > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 10:39 AM, IFLYSMODEL@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Jim: Very nice. Too bad you didn't like yellow/black. I really like > your performance numbers > Lynn > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > * > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > * > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:34 PM PST US From: James Sagerser Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) If a prop change was a "major change" and my original 40 hours were flown off, then I would have to fly an additional 5 hours in my test area then if the test is satisfactory, I would sign it back into service. A prop change is not major and does not require additional hours to my understanding. On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:50 PM, John Marzulli wrote: > By changing props, how much time is being added to the testing by > the DAR? > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE! > > On Jan 21, 2008 5:09 PM, James Sagerser wrote: > Thank you and thanks to all who have commented on "Buzz". > > I called Pete at Jabiru USA today to see if I could change my prop > to a climb prop. My current prop os a 64/45. It's easy to blow > right past VNe if I'm not careful. Within 5 minutes Pete had > contacted Sensenich and has another prop, a 68/36 on it's way. My > gear has been extended 4" so should have plenty of clearance. Am > eager to see how this works out. Anyway, thanks again. Jim > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 10:39 AM, IFLYSMODEL@aol.com wrote: > >> Hey Jim: Very nice. Too bad you didn't like yellow/black. I really >> like your performance numbers >> Lynn >> >> >> >> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http:// >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List >> >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> > > > -- > John Marzulli > http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ > > "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just > a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. > -Airplane The Movie > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 From: "norriedh" Would appreciate suggestions for the firewall boots to seal the rudder rods on 701/Savannah. I followed up on Ben Haas's recommendation of the 2001 Yamaha Mountain Max snowmobile boots and bought them online at TEam Alpine in USA, but found them quite heavy and likely too stiff for our Canadian winter. Have searched all local auto part stores etc but havent found a substitute. Just had a new suggestion from another list--- the Rakboot from Products That Work -- and this looks really good --- has anyone here tried them? I was hoping to find one of those thin silicone boots as they remain flexible in the cold but so far havent found one. Thanks Douglas N Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159695#159695 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:25 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 Eddie Congratulations, beautiful looking 601. do not archive Art --- eddies wrote: > > Hi Fellow Listers, > > After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took to the air for the first > time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a slightly heavy right wing. Details of engine > temps, speeds and stall characteristics are on my website; > http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve > > The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger after it's first flight (no > sound); > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM > > I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special thanks to Scott Laughlin, > Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web sites which where always very helpful when I got > stuck. > > Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it, > Eddie Seve :D > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159615#159615 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:37 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness Gary, Makes sense, I will take your input into consideration. do not archive Thanks, Art --- Gary Gower wrote: > We have 150+ hrs of fun flying in our 701, the wings and fuselage built as in the plans, yes, > it will oilcan if you are not a good pilot :-) oilcanning is the best "sound alarm" to > "shout" to the pilot that the ball is off center :-) > The 701 is no diferent to any other airplane, the lighter the better it flys. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > Flying from Chapala, Mexico. > 701 912S > Building a 601 XL Jab 3300 > > > Bill Berle wrote: > > The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the > largest part.... increasing the thickness will add some amount weight. > >From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you > don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness. > > The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L > angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x > 3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to > match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make > them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as > they are for the ribs). > > Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations > (I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the > curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs. > > Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which > parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of > where they are needed most. Top of the wings behind the spars are my > first suspicion. > > Bill the New Guy > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? > > If so which ones? > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:00 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs No Howard, I have them but don't think I will install the elevator VGs. (Want to buy them back?). Here is my reasoning. With the BRS chute behind the baggage compartment the CG of my 701 is toward the back of the allowed range. Probably due to this, I can keep the nose up during a power-off stall. Probably the VGs would tend to hold the nose up even higher in the stall speed range, so I am concerned that if the engine goes out in a nose high position I may have trouble dropping the nose... Maybe this wouldn't happen, but why do something that could potentially cause problems when the plane balances out and I have no trouble with pitch control now? Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > HOWADO1@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:18 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > > Les Goldner, > have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > Howard Carter > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:14 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell VGs on this site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased information, not to see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs > > > The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be > placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority > during the low speed flaring of the airplane. > > David Mikesell > 230 Theresa Drive, #6 > Cloverdale, CA 95425 > 209-224-4485 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "THOMAS SMALL" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > > > > > > > >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > > > > do not archive > > > > ...might you mean stab? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:49 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs -Why not to install them No Howard, I still have the VGs, but don't think I will install them on my 701 elevators. (Want to buy them back?). Here is my reasoning. With the BRS chute behind the baggage compartment the CG of my 701 is toward the back of the allowed range. Probably due to this, I can keep the nose up during a power-off stall. Probably the VGs would tend to hold the nose up even higher in the stall speed range, so I am concerned that if the engine goes out in a nose high position I may have trouble dropping the nose... Maybe this wouldn't happen, but why do something that could potentially cause problems when the plane balances-out well now and I have no trouble with pitch control at any speed. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > HOWADO1@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:18 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > > Les Goldner, > have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > Howard Carter > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:19 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs -Why not to install them No Howard, I still have the VGs, but don't think I will install them on my 701 elevators. (Want to buy them back?). Here is my reasoning. With the BRS chute behind the baggage compartment the CG of my 701 is toward the back of the allowed range. Probably due to this, I can keep the nose up during a power-off stall. Probably the VGs would tend to hold the nose up even higher in the stall speed range, so I am concerned that if the engine goes out in a nose high position I may have trouble dropping the nose... Maybe this wouldn't happen, but why do something that could potentially cause problems when the plane balances-out well now and I have no trouble with pitch control at any speed. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > HOWADO1@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:18 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > > Les Goldner, > have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > Howard Carter > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:03 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs-why not to use them! No Howard, I still have the VGs, but don't think I will install them on my 701 elevators. (Want to buy them back?). Here is my reasoning. With the BRS chute behind the baggage compartment the CG of my 701 is toward the back of the allowed range. Probably due to this, I can keep the nose up during a power-off stall. Probably the VGs would tend to hold the nose up even higher in the stall speed range, so I am concerned that if the engine goes out in a nose high position I may have trouble dropping the nose... Maybe this wouldn't happen, but why do something that could potentially cause problems when the plane balances-out very well now and I have no trouble with pitch control at any speed. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > HOWADO1@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:18 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > > > Les Goldner, > have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > Howard Carter > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.