---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/22/08: 46 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:51 AM - Re: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 (Bill Berle) 2. 02:11 AM - Re: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) (John Marzulli) 3. 03:39 AM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (Larry Winger) 4. 05:34 AM - prop change is a major change (THOMAS SMALL) 5. 05:51 AM - Re: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 (n801bh@netzero.com) 6. 06:35 AM - One more " Newbie " joins the fray (stepinwolf) 7. 06:59 AM - For Corvair folks..Nitron and Aerovair (annken100) 8. 07:53 AM - Re: prop change is a major change (James Sagerser) 9. 08:50 AM - Re: prop change is a major change (THOMAS SMALL) 10. 09:54 AM - Re: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 (Darrell Haas) 11. 09:59 AM - Re: VGs () 12. 10:25 AM - Re: prop change is a major change (dragonfuel@aol.com) 13. 10:35 AM - Re: VGs (Jerry Hey) 14. 10:36 AM - Re: VGs (Larry H) 15. 10:36 AM - Re: prop change is a major change (Craig Payne) 16. 10:38 AM - Re: prop change is a major change (James Sagerser) 17. 11:22 AM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (eddies) 18. 11:59 AM - Re: VGs (Gig Giacona) 19. 12:39 PM - Re: prop change is a major change (George Tamvakis) 20. 01:53 PM - Re: prop change is a major change (Gig Giacona) 21. 02:29 PM - VDO sender stuck (kkinney) 22. 02:35 PM - Differences in Lyc O-235 (Gig Giacona) 23. 02:51 PM - Re: VDO sender stuck (ashontz) 24. 02:56 PM - Re: Differences in Lyc O-235 (Craig Payne) 25. 03:01 PM - Re: Rib forming questions (Jugle) 26. 03:07 PM - Re: Differences in Lyc O-235 (dragonfuel@aol.com) 27. 03:17 PM - Re: VGs (Les Goldner) 28. 03:38 PM - Nasty remarks (robert stone) 29. 04:00 PM - Re: VGs () 30. 04:43 PM - Re: VGs (Tim Juhl) 31. 05:21 PM - Re: VGs on XL was Re: VGs (Ronald Steele) 32. 05:26 PM - Re: Nasty remarks (Larry H) 33. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: VGs (John Marzulli) 34. 06:34 PM - 601 Front Wheel Instructions (Don Mountain) 35. 07:33 PM - Re: VGs (LRM) 36. 07:41 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (Art Olechowski) 37. 07:44 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (Art Olechowski) 38. 07:56 PM - Re: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 (norriedh) 39. 07:58 PM - Re: VGs (Joemotis@aol.com) 40. 08:49 PM - Re: VDO sender stuck (T. Graziano) 41. 09:05 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (Terry Turnquist) 42. 09:35 PM - Re: 601 Front Wheel Instructions (Craig Payne) 43. 09:42 PM - Re: VGs (George Swinford) 44. 10:07 PM - Re: VGs (Les Goldner) 45. 10:57 PM - Re: Holding Nose up (Terry Phillips) 46. 11:50 PM - Re: Holding Nose up (Terry Phillips) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:23 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 Sailplane pilot to the rescue !!! Make a conical "boot" out of rubberized or weatherized ripstop nylon. The stuff they make tent floors out of, or the stuff they make fabric inflatable boats out of. We used to use these as pushrod seals on racing gliders and they worked great. Measure the perimeter of the opening on the firewall. Add 3 inches. That will be the large end of the seal, the extra 3 inches is to be able to open out the "base" so it can be glued or mounted to the firewall. Then measure the length of the nosewheel steering rod. That will be the height of the cone. Then draw a triangle on a piece of the weatherproof fabric using those dimensions. Make the two long legs equal length, not a "right triangle". At the small end of the triangle make it about an inch thick instead of coming to a point. Carry that extra inch all the way back to the base. That extra inch wide strip on the side is important. Cut out the fabric into the shape of the piece. Fold the triangular piece of fabric in half like a taco shell, with the fold line running along the long axis (you will then have a narrower "right triangle"), Have somebody sew the edges of the long side together about halfan inch in from the edge. Sew it two or three times, using heavy thread. Open up the piece into a cone shape, then turn this cone inside out so the sewn seam is inside. Slide the boot over the pushrod and glue the base to the firewall using hi-temp silicone.Clamp the forward end of the boot to the middle of the steering pushrod using cable ties (Ty-Rap) or safety wire. Do a function check to make sure the boot does not interfere with full rudder travel, etc. Thanks to Rick Wagner and Larry Lichina, the two guys who installed this type of seal boot on my racing gliders a million years ago. RIP, Lichina. Wagner get your S**T together. Bill the New Guy norriedh wrote: > > Would appreciate suggestions for the firewall boots to seal the rudder rods on 701/Savannah. I followed up on Ben Haas's recommendation of the 2001 Yamaha Mountain Max snowmobile boots and bought them online at TEam Alpine in USA, but found them quite heavy and likely too stiff for our Canadian winter. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:28 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701ZZ 1st flight (Jab 3300 w/retractable slats) I know it varies from DAR to DAR. our guy up here has been know to require an additional 20 hours for a prop change. DO NOT ARCHIVE! On Jan 21, 2008 6:29 PM, James Sagerser wrote: > If a prop change was a "major change" and my original 40 hours were flown > off, then I would have to fly an additional 5 hours in my test area then if > the test is satisfactory, I would sign it back into service. A prop change > is not major and does not require additional hours to my understanding. > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:50 PM, John Marzulli wrote: > > By changing props, how much time is being added to the testing by the DAR? > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE! > > On Jan 21, 2008 5:09 PM, James Sagerser wrote: > > > Thank you and thanks to all who have commented on "Buzz". > > I called Pete at Jabiru USA today to see if I could change my prop to a > > climb prop. My current prop os a 64/45. It's easy to blow right past VNe > > if I'm not careful. Within 5 minutes Pete had contacted Sensenich and has > > another prop, a 68/36 on it's way. My gear has been extended 4" so should > > have plenty of clearance. Am eager to see how this works out. Anyway, > > thanks again. Jim > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 10:39 AM, IFLYSMODEL@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hey Jim: Very nice. Too bad you didn't like yellow/black. I really like > > your performance numbers > > Lynn > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > > > > * > > * > > > > > > > -- > John Marzulli > http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ > > "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot > harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. > -Airplane The Movie > > * > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > * > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:59 AM PST US From: "Larry Winger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 What a beautiful airplane and a significant accomplishment. Congratulations! Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair On Jan 21, 2008 11:58 AM, eddies wrote: > > Hi Fellow Listers, > > After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took to > the air for the first time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a > slightly heavy right wing. Details of engine temps, speeds and stall > characteristics are on my website; > http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve > > The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger after > it's first flight (no sound); > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM > > I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special > thanks to Scott Laughlin, Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web sites > which where always very helpful when I got stuck. > > Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it, > Eddie Seve :D > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159615#159615 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:03 AM PST US From: "THOMAS SMALL" Subject: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change I know it varies from DAR to DAR. our guy up here has been know to require an additional 20 hours for a prop change. +++ Your DAR, like many that have been encountered by builders on this list, is marching to the beat of his own drum. Examples: Wayne B. was told by his DAR that the strobe/position lights on wingtips would have to be changed because they tilted forward too much. Brent B. was given a 25 hour Phase I period with a Rotax 912 (not the certificated model). Ron D. was told that his a/c was not inspectable with the flex-skin aileron hinges. ...probably many more. According to FAR 21.93 the changing of a prop is a major change. Forget any "wood to metal" qualification that might seep into the discussion, the prop change will "...have an appreciable effect on the operational characteristics of the a/c," and as such you will have to look to the last page of your Operating Limitations granted when you received your airworthiness certificate. Below is what most of us have if we were inspected up until 2004: (at the bottom of this post is what you folks inspected after 2004 must do - note it says that DARs lack authority in this area) 8130.2D 2/15/00 CHG 1 Page 114 Par 134 (19) After incorporating a major change as described in =A7 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with =A7 91.319(b). All operations will be conducted VFR, day only, in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change prior to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with =A7 91.319(b). Compliance with =A7 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the following or a similarly worded statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso______, Vx______, and Vy______, and the weight______, and CG location______ at which they were obtained." < A prop change is not major and does not require additional hours to my understanding. << By changing props, how much time is being added to the testing by the DAR? +++ This example below from Government Relations clarification on the EAA website: Historically, that limitation has evolved (with the help of EAA). 1.. Yours is an example of what was standard in 1985 - any major changes required an FAA inspection and re-certification of the aircraft. Which created a major FAA FSDO workload. 2.. In 1993 the limitation wording changed to "notify the FSDO prior to making any changes." Now it was no longer mandatory to get a new FSDO inspection if the FSDO approved your change data in writing. This reduced their workload by 50%, but you still had to get their approval in writing before starting with changing your aircraft. 3.. In 1999 the limitation was changed. No longer does the FSDO have to be notified of a major change. The aircraft owner now just has to make two entries in the logbook - one describing the major change, and after a minimum of a five hour test flight, one showing that the safety of the aircraft (FAR 91.319) and the critical airspeeds (Vx, Vy, Vso) have been reestablished. No FSDO workload. 4.. In 2004 the limitation changed again. In this change the owner has to obtain concurrence from the local FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test flight area. FAR 91.305 provides the FAA guidance for this change. You can find the current limitation in FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 153b(19). Updating your operating limitations is a paperwork procedure that does not require a reinspection of your aircraft. Anyway, EAA recommends you ask your local FSDO or MIDO to update your existing operating limitations to the ones in FAA Order 8130.2F. You can locate your local FSDO or MIDO by calling EAA at 888-322-4636, extension 4821 or by using the FAA FSDO locator or the FAA MIDO locator web site. Call the FSDO or MIDO and tell them you'll be mailing (or by fax if they'll allow it) them a letter requesting to update your operating limitations, along with copies (DO NOT mail your originals - just in case they get lost in the mail) of your current airworthiness certificate, aircraft registration and operating limitations. Let them know you'll bring in the original documents for exchange when the new ones are ready - you can't fly your aircraft without the original documents in the aircraft so hang onto them as long as you can. This is a paperwork issue that should only take them 30 minutes to complete. Don't let them refer you to a DAR for the paperwork conversion because a DAR does not have the authority to do this - only a FAA FSDO or MIDO Safety Inspector can do the paperwork. Note: a DAR can do the paperwork under a "re-certification" action, which means they have to inspect your aircraft and charge you for their services - while the FSDO or MIDO Inspector does not have to do an inspection and the cost is more reasonable - Free. +++ Bottom line - look in your operating limitations ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:02 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 I fly my 801 all the time in -25 f weather. Never had a bit of problem w ith them being stiff. I will go to the local dealer today and get a boot and put it on a scale.but my guess is they weigh 5-8 oz at the most. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "norriedh" wrote: Would appreciate suggestions for the firewall boots to seal the rudder r ods on 701/Savannah. I followed up on Ben Haas's recommendation of the 2 001 Yamaha Mountain Max snowmobile boots and bought them online at TEam Alpine in USA, but found them quite heavy and likely too stiff for our C anadian winter. Have searched all local auto part stores etc but havent found a substitute. Just had a new suggestion from another list--- the Rakboot from Products That Work -- and this looks really good --- has anyone here tried them? I was hoping to find one of those thin silicone boots as they remain fle xible in the cold but so far havent found one. Thanks Douglas N Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159695#159695 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click here and get the professional resume help you need. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s1lmMd9q6PPDXzCew6 EiA8PvrNmyXrmeZZF7uffei34vKGG/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: One more " Newbie " joins the fray From: "stepinwolf" Hi everybody, I am now semi retired, and finally can spare the time to do what ever I set my mind to. I have spent most of my life as an avid builder ( of anything ) and this has become for me my latest challenge. Received my pilots license in the early 70's, and spent almost four years teaching ground school for the local flying club. During that time I scratch built a " Cubby ' but was forced to sell it six months before completion. Since then I have always promised myself that one of these days I would build and fly my own aircraft, and that is why I am here today. I have just received my 701 plans from Zenith, and I am in the beginning stages of gathering up all the necessary tools ( see attached photo ) and parts that I will need. The major part of the project will be an additionel 20' x 40' garage , that I will be building as soon as the ground thaws. I would like to thank all of the Forum members who will have the time and patience, to respond to all my future concerns. Fly safe Bob a.k.a. stepinwolf -------- Live each day, as if it was your last Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159743#159743 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake2_431.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake3_183.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/plyiers_904.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: For Corvair folks..Nitron and Aerovair From: "annken100" Fellow listers, Pramod Kotwal of Nitron and Aerovair has suffered a tragic family crisis. While dealing with this crisis Pramod will be unavailable to answer inquiries by phone or email. Please keep Pramod and his family in your prayers and thoughts during this difficult time. Thank you in advance for your understanding. Ken Pavlou Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159750#159750 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:10 AM PST US From: James Sagerser Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change Thank you for the correction concerning a "major change" for a prop installation. In my case, I'm still in my original test area and still flying off my hours. I will make the change in my logbook and return it to service when the 40 hours are flown off. No additional hours, in my case are warranted. As you clarified, I'm not required to contact my original DAR or even the FSDO office except to the suitability (does not apply here) of the test area. I understand from my DAR this is because I could have flown off my hours and have moved back to Alaska in which case the local FSDO would approve/ disapprove my new test area at that time. This could be inaccurate, but this is the way I interpret this situation. Thank you again for all the time to research this for our list. Jim On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:28 AM, THOMAS SMALL wrote: > > > I know it varies from DAR to DAR. our guy up here has been know to > require an additional 20 hours for a prop change. > +++ Your DAR, like many that have been encountered by builders on > this list, is marching to the beat of his own drum. > > Examples: > > Wayne B. was told by his DAR that the strobe/position lights on > wingtips would have to be changed because they tilted forward too > much. > > Brent B. was given a 25 hour Phase I period with a Rotax 912 (not > the certificated model). > > Ron D. was told that his a/c was not inspectable with the flex-skin > aileron hinges. > > ...probably many more. > > According to FAR 21.93 the changing of a prop is a major change. > Forget any "wood to metal" qualification that might seep into the > discussion, the prop change will "...have an appreciable effect on > the operational characteristics of the a/c," and as such you will > have to look to the last page of your Operating Limitations granted > when you received your airworthiness certificate. > > Below is what most of us have if we were inspected up until 2004: > > (at the bottom of this post is what you folks inspected after 2004 > must do - note it says that DARs lack authority in this area) > > 8130.2D 2/15/00 > > CHG 1 > > Page 114 Par 134 > > (19) After incorporating a major change as described in =A7 21.93, > the aircraft owner is required to > > re-establish compliance with =A7 91.319(b). All operations will be > conducted VFR, day only, in a sparsely > > populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a > minimum of 5 hours. Persons non-essential to the > > flight shall not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a > detailed log book entry describing the change prior to > > the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required > number of flight hours in the flight test area, the > > pilot shall certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown > to comply with =A7 91.319(b). Compliance with > > =A7 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the > following or a similarly worded statement: "I > > certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed > and the aircraft is controllable > > throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers > to be executed, has no > > hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe > for operation. The following > > aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight > testing: speeds Vso______, > > Vx______, and Vy______, and the weight______, and CG location______ > at which they were > > obtained." > > > < A prop change is not major and does not require additional hours > to my understanding. > > << By changing props, how much time is being added to the testing > by the DAR? > +++ This example below from Government Relations clarification on > the EAA website: >> Historically, that limitation has evolved (with the help of EAA). >> >> Yours is an example of what was standard in 1985 - any major >> changes required an FAA inspection and re-certification of the >> aircraft. Which created a major FAA FSDO workload. >> In 1993 the limitation wording changed to "notify the FSDO prior >> to making any changes." Now it was no longer mandatory to get a >> new FSDO inspection if the FSDO approved your change data in >> writing. This reduced their workload by 50%, but you still had to >> get their approval in writing before starting with changing your >> aircraft. >> In 1999 the limitation was changed. No longer does the FSDO have >> to be notified of a major change. The aircraft owner now just has >> to make two entries in the logbook - one describing the major >> change, and after a minimum of a five hour test flight, one >> showing that the safety of the aircraft (FAR 91.319) and the >> critical airspeeds (Vx, Vy, Vso) have been reestablished. No FSDO >> workload. >> In 2004 the limitation changed again. In this change the owner has >> to obtain concurrence from the local FSDO as to the suitability of >> the proposed test flight area. FAR 91.305 provides the FAA >> guidance for this change. You can find the current limitation in >> FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 153b(19). >> Updating your operating limitations is a paperwork procedure that >> does not require a reinspection of your aircraft. >> >> Anyway, EAA recommends you ask your local FSDO or MIDO to update >> your existing operating limitations to the ones in FAA Order >> 8130.2F. You can locate your local FSDO or MIDO by calling EAA at >> 888-322-4636, extension 4821 or by using the FAA FSDO locator or >> the FAA MIDO locator web site. Call the FSDO or MIDO and tell them >> you'll be mailing (or by fax if they'll allow it) them a letter >> requesting to update your operating limitations, along with copies >> (DO NOT mail your originals ' just in case they get lost in the >> mail) of your current airworthiness certificate, aircraft >> registration and operating limitations. Let them know you'll bring >> in the original documents for exchange when the new ones are ready >> - you can't fly your aircraft without the original documents in >> the aircraft so hang onto them as long as you can. This is a >> paperwork issue that should only take them 30 minutes to complete. >> Don't let them refer you to a DAR for the paperwork conversion >> because a DAR does not have the authority to do this - only a FAA >> FSDO or MIDO Safety Inspector can do the paperwork. Note: a DAR >> can do the paperwork under a "re-certification" action, which >> means they have to inspect your aircraft and charge you for their >> services - while the FSDO or MIDO Inspector does not have to do an >> inspection and the cost is more reasonable - Free. >> >> +++ Bottom line - look in your operating limitations > ======================== > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:23 AM PST US From: "THOMAS SMALL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change Alaska Jim, Very confusing area. I sensed you were in still in Phase I and as such you can make any changes you want. Had you been in Phase II and moved and then made the prop change, I think you'd be required to at least contact the local FSDO/MIDO in case they wanted to be a bit heavy-handed and impose a new test area. Seems like the old reg adopted in 1999 was a bit more lenient - but at least that's what my a/c is under so fine by me. This info came from Joe Norris at EAA when I called to check on a change made last month from the old Jabiru 60x48 prop to a Sensenich 64x51 for the opposite reason you did - to gain some cruise. Average speed increase in the 2600 to 2850 RPM range was 9 MPH. With the prop you described coming from Sensenich, you should have climb out the kazoo! BTW, your bird is very sharp. CAVU jeff HDS/3300 do not archive Thank you for the correction concerning a "major change" for a prop installation. In my case, I'm still in my original test area and still flying off my hours. I will make the change in my logbook and return it to service when the 40 hours are flown off. No additional hours, in my case are warranted. As you clarified, I'm not required to contact my original DAR or even the FSDO office except to the suitability (does not apply here) of the test area. I understand from my DAR this is because I could have flown off my hours and have moved back to Alaska in which case the local FSDO would approve/disapprove my new test area at that time. This could be inaccurate, but this is the way I interpret this situation. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:03 AM PST US From: "Darrell Haas" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 I was told to get a boot that fits over the 4 wheel drive levers in an older jeep etc. and then split them. Darrell Haas 601 XL On 1/21/08, norriedh wrote: > > Would appreciate suggestions for the firewall boots to seal the rudder rods on 701/Savannah. I followed up on Ben Haas's recommendation of the 2001 Yamaha Mountain Max snowmobile boots and bought them online at TEam Alpine in USA, but found them quite heavy and likely too stiff for our Canadian winter. Have searched all local auto part stores etc but havent found a substitute. > > Just had a new suggestion from another list--- the Rakboot from Products That Work -- and this looks really good --- has anyone here tried them? > > I was hoping to find one of those thin silicone boots as they remain flexible in the cold but so far havent found one. > > Thanks > > Douglas N > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159695#159695 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:29 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out here near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a sales agent for anyone. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Goldner" Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:53 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs > > > I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell VGs on this > site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased information, not > to > see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! > Les > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be >> placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority >> during the low speed flaring of the airplane. >> >> David Mikesell >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >> 209-224-4485 >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> www.skyguynca.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "THOMAS SMALL" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM >> Subject: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? >> > >> > do not archive >> > >> > ...might you mean stab? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change From: dragonfuel@aol.com The ELSA planes follow a different path on such changes.? The builder simply reverts the plane to Phase One test status, flys a minimum of one hour flight test (or more if he believes needed), re-certifies the plane back into normal status, and records the process in the log.? Works for a change of prop, engine, landing gear, or whatever.? Wanted to change my Sensenich to a McCauley (done it).? Wanted to change the McCauley to a Warp Drive (done it).? Switch from Zenith landing gear to Grove (done it). Want to change the Lycoming for a Jabiru?? Might some day but not yet, but same procedure. Simple? Some of you guys couldn't see the advantage of ELSA?? This is one. Cheers, Bob Archibald CH601XL/Lyc 125hp/Dynons/400 hrs Dragonfly Aviation Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: THOMAS SMALL Subject: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change? According to FAR 21.93 the changing of a prop is a major change.? Forget any "wood to metal" qualification that might seep into the discussion, the prop change will "...have an appreciable effect on the operational characteristics of the a/c," and as such you will have to look to the last page of your Operating Limitations granted when you received your airworthiness certificate. Below is what most of us have if we were inspected up until 2004:? ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:05 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs I see nothing wrong with a vendor using this list to reference his own web site. It is certainly better than not knowing of a product or service being offered. If you want to know more you can check it out. If not just delete the message and move on. VGs may be controversial to some but many people who have tried them would not give them up. I have had just one ride in a 701 with VGs and it seemed to perform very well. Jerry On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:56 PM, wrote: > > UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out here > near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a sales agent > for anyone. > > David Mikesell > 230 Theresa Drive, #6 > Cloverdale, CA 95425 > 209-224-4485 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Goldner" > > To: > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:53 PM > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs > > >> > >> >> I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell VGs on >> this >> site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased >> information, not to >> see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. ENOUGH IS >> ENOUGH! >> Les >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM >>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >>> >>> >>> The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be >>> placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority >>> during the low speed flaring of the airplane. >>> >>> David Mikesell >>> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >>> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >>> 209-224-4485 >>> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >>> www.skyguynca.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "THOMAS SMALL" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM >>> Subject: Zenith-List: VGs >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? >>> > >>> > do not archive >>> > >>> > ...might you mean stab? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:00 AM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs Me thinks Les needs a "chill pill".....or something stronger. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:18 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change So is changing the pitch on a ground adjustable prop a major change? If you change it enough seems like it would have as much impact on flight characteristics as a new prop. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change Alaska Jim, Very confusing area. I sensed you were in still in Phase I and as such you can make any changes you want. Had you been in Phase II and moved and then made the prop change, I think you'd be required to at least contact the local FSDO/MIDO in case they wanted to be a bit heavy-handed and impose a new test area. Seems like the old reg adopted in 1999 was a bit more lenient - but at least that's what my a/c is under so fine by me. This info came from Joe Norris at EAA when I called to check on a change made last month from the old Jabiru 60x48 prop to a Sensenich 64x51 for the opposite reason you did - to gain some cruise. Average speed increase in the 2600 to 2850 RPM range was 9 MPH. With the prop you described coming from Sensenich, you should have climb out the kazoo! BTW, your bird is very sharp. CAVU jeff HDS/3300 do not archive Thank you for the correction concerning a "major change" for a prop installation. In my case, I'm still in my original test area and still flying off my hours. I will make the change in my logbook and return it to service when the 40 hours are flown off. No additional hours, in my case are warranted. As you clarified, I'm not required to contact my original DAR or even the FSDO office except to the suitability (does not apply here) of the test area. I understand from my DAR this is because I could have flown off my hours and have moved back to Alaska in which case the local FSDO would approve/disapprove my new test area at that time. This could be inaccurate, but this is the way I interpret this situation. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:42 AM PST US From: James Sagerser Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change Yes, I'm in phase I with 33 hours to go. I absolutely agree. Thanks you Jim do not archive On Jan 22, 2008, at 9:45 AM, THOMAS SMALL wrote: > Alaska Jim, > > Very confusing area. I sensed you were in still in Phase I and as > such you can make any changes you want. Had you been in Phase II > and moved and then made the prop change, I think you'd be required > to at least contact the local FSDO/MIDO in case they wanted to be a > bit heavy-handed and impose a new test area. Seems like the old > reg adopted in 1999 was a bit more lenient - but at least that's > what my a/c is under so fine by me. > > This info came from Joe Norris at EAA when I called to check on a > change made last month from the old Jabiru 60x48 prop to a > Sensenich 64x51 for the opposite reason you did - to gain some > cruise. Average speed increase in the 2600 to 2850 RPM range was 9 > MPH. With the prop you described coming from Sensenich, you should > have climb out the kazoo! > > BTW, your bird is very sharp. > > CAVU jeff HDS/3300 do not archive > > > Thank you for the correction concerning a "major change" for a prop > installation. In my case, I'm still in my original test area and > still flying off my hours. I will make the change in my logbook > and return it to service when the 40 hours are flown off. No > additional hours, in my case are warranted. As you clarified, I'm > not required to contact my original DAR or even the FSDO office > except to the suitability (does not apply here) of the test area. > I understand from my DAR this is because I could have flown off my > hours and have moved back to Alaska in which case the local FSDO > would approve/disapprove my new test area at that time. This could > be inaccurate, but this is the way I interpret this situation. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 From: "eddies" Thanks guys, The whole process has been a great experience and the plane flys like advertised, which is a credit to the team at Zenith. Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159808#159808 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VGs From: "Gig Giacona" In addition to what I've posted below I think it would be a pretty good idea that if you are selling something that you are talking about that you should add a disclaimer if it isn't clear from your post. Here are the guidelines Matt wrote... Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159818#159818 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:15 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change From: "George Tamvakis" I wonder if some of you guys that spend so much time and effort on these trivial discussions were to spend equal time on building your planes, I am sure some of you would probably finish your projects a lot sooner if you spend your time on your projects instead. ________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dragonfuel@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change The ELSA planes follow a different path on such changes. The builder simply reverts the plane to Phase One test status, flys a minimum of one hour flight test (or more if he believes needed), re-certifies the plane back into normal status, and records the process in the log. Works for a change of prop, engine, landing gear, or whatever. Wanted to change my Sensenich to a McCauley (done it). Wanted to change the McCauley to a Warp Drive (done it). Switch from Zenith landing gear to Grove (done it). Want to change the Lycoming for a Jabiru? Might some day but not yet, but same procedure. Simple? Some of you guys couldn't see the advantage of ELSA? This is one. Cheers, Bob Archibald CH601XL/Lyc 125hp/Dynons/400 hrs Dragonfly Aviation Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: THOMAS SMALL Subject: Zenith-List: prop change is a major change According to FAR 21.93 the changing of a prop is a major change. Forget any "wood to metal" qualification that might seep into the discussion, the prop change will "...have an appreciable effect on the operational characteristics of the a/c," and as such you will have to look to the last page of your Operating Limitations granted when you received your airworthiness certificate. Below is what most of us have if we were inspected up until 2004: ________________________________ size=2 width="100%" align=center> ! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: prop change is a major change From: "Gig Giacona" Well George, if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butts when they hop. A lot of us don't have the option of working on the plane every day and use our not working on the plane time to wax philosophical on the process. Don't feel like you must read all of our babbling. If you don't like the stuff filling your mail box do what I do. Use the web based reader. It really is, in a lot of ways, better and it is easier to skip over stuff that isn't of interest. For the record this thread on the regs has been of interest to me and I would assume it has been to those that have posted to it. Remember we don't just fly our planes in the sky. We fly them in a regulated sky. George(at)gtelectricnc.co wrote: > I wonder if some of you guys that spend so much time and effort on these trivial discussions were to spend equal time on building your planes, I am sure some of you would probably finish your projects a lot sooner if you spend your time on your projects instead. > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159834#159834 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: VDO sender stuck From: "kkinney" I have a VDO sender that's stuck. Other than picking up the wing and shaking it, what can I do? Regards, Kevin Kinney Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159849#159849 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235 From: "Gig Giacona" Anybody know the difference in the O-235-L2C and the O-235-N2C? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159852#159852 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VDO sender stuck From: "ashontz" Maybe bend a coat hanger and stick it in there and try to free it up? Ground yourself and the tank before you do it if there's gas in the tank. Treat it like a fuel filler and get one of those alligator clip wires from radio shack and clip one end to a ground on the plane and the other to the coat hanger. kkinney wrote: > I have a VDO sender that's stuck. Other than picking up the wing and shaking it, what can I do? > > Regards, > Kevin Kinney -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159858#159858 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:29 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235 www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Lycoming/Lyc_Cert_list.html T/O Compression Model HP RPM Fuel Ratio Suffix O-235-L2C 118 2800 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as -L2A but with Slick Magnetos -15 O-235-N2C 116 2800 100/100LL 8.10:1 Same as -L2C but lower comp. ratio and power -15 -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235 Anybody know the difference in the O-235-L2C and the O-235-N2C? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159852#159852 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forming questions From: "Jugle" Thanks for those of you who responded to this post. I contacted Zenith and showed them photos, Nick confirmed all is okay. Gary, your idea of using the dowell is a good one and thanks for your other tips. Glenn gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: > Glenn, > > The roll-out at your joggle doesn't appear to be bad at all. In the future, > you might consider a tighter clamp at that exact area when you form the > joggle. > > The length of the joggle is not critical if it does not interfere with the > placement of a rivet. If it does interfere with a rivet, there may be > options, but re-bending the aluminum is not preferred. Too much bending > 'work hardens' the aluminum, creating a possible crack. > > The clearance referred to should be good at 1-2mm. The important thing is > that the rib flange does not touch the spar flange, and there is not so much > gap that you lose your edge clearance on your last rivet. > > If the ends are high on your ribs, just put a large dowel under the rib > (like a closet hanger rod) and roll the rib back and forth with gentle > pressure. The rib will flatten out very easily. > > -- -------- Glenn Andressen 601XL- just started. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159860#159860 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235 From: dragonfuel@aol.com Slight difference in the cylinders, I have always interchanged them.? I have operated up to 10 Cessna 152's at a time using these engines and done all the overhaul disassembly and assembly here.? That is why I had a spare O-235 available for my Zodiac. Cheers, Bob Archibald N601BA -----Original Message----- From: Gig Giacona Sent: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 2:33 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235 Anybody know the difference in the O-235-L2C and the O-235-N2C? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159852#159852 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:47 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs David, I apologize for the outburst. I didn't look at who the sender was until after sending the nasty email. The guys from Australia have been pushing VGs hard on this site, sometimes without stating that they were selling them, and mistook you for them. I know you are not trying to sell VGs and I hope you accept my apology. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:56 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs > > > UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out > here near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a > sales agent for anyone. > > David Mikesell > 230 Theresa Drive, #6 > Cloverdale, CA 95425 > 209-224-4485 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Les Goldner" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:53 PM > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs > > > > > > > > I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell > VGs on this > > site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased > information, not > > to > > see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. > ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! > > Les > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com > >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM > >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs > >> > >> > >> The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be > >> placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority > >> during the low speed flaring of the airplane. > >> > >> David Mikesell > >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 > >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 > >> 209-224-4485 > >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com > >> www.skyguynca.com > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "THOMAS SMALL" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM > >> Subject: Zenith-List: VGs > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? > >> > > >> > do not archive > >> > > >> > ...might you mean stab? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:42 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Nasty remarks Some of the wise ass remarks I read on this forum make me feel like thisThen I read a little further and feel like thisThe point is, a good many people who have something to offer are leaving the Zenith net because so many other people have had something nasty to say about their entry. People who make these remarks are weak, stupid and have nothing to offer but their crap. (Now go ahead and flame me and see if I give a dam, I have thick skin) Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:23 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs No problem Les. David Mikesell 230 Theresa Drive, #6 Cloverdale, CA 95425 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Goldner" Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs > > > David, > I apologize for the outburst. > I didn't look at who the sender was until after sending the nasty email. > The > guys from Australia have been pushing VGs hard on this site, sometimes > without stating that they were selling them, and mistook you for them. > I know you are not trying to sell VGs and I hope you accept my apology. > Les > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:56 AM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out >> here near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a >> sales agent for anyone. >> >> David Mikesell >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >> 209-224-4485 >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> www.skyguynca.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Les Goldner" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:53 PM >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> > >> > >> > I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell >> VGs on this >> > site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased >> information, not >> > to >> > see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. >> ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! >> > Les >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> >> >> >> The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be >> >> placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority >> >> during the low speed flaring of the airplane. >> >> >> >> David Mikesell >> >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >> >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >> >> 209-224-4485 >> >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> >> www.skyguynca.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "THOMAS SMALL" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM >> >> Subject: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? >> >> > >> >> > do not archive >> >> > >> >> > ...might you mean stab? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VGs From: "Tim Juhl" Please note that I asked for the name of the vendor... sorry if I got everyone excited. I have talked to people who have installed VG's on other aircraft and reported measurable improvements. For example, Kenmore Air Service in Seattle was operating two super cubs on floats. One had VG's. I spoke to one of their instructors who said the AC with VGs outperformed the other by quite a margin. I am seriously considering VG's for my XL and am interested in whatever info I can find on the subject. Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159880#159880 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:20 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs on XL was Re: VGs I'd be interested in more info on VG's on an XL also. This seems like a two edged sword. You would likely lower the stall speed, and maybe shorten the takeoff run, but wouldn't you also lower the maneuvering speed by a similar amount? Ron On Jan 22, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Tim Juhl wrote: > > Please note that I asked for the name of the vendor... sorry if I > got everyone excited. > > I have talked to people who have installed VG's on other aircraft > and reported measurable improvements. For example, Kenmore Air > Service in Seattle was operating two super cubs on floats. One had > VG's. I spoke to one of their instructors who said the AC with VGs > outperformed the other by quite a margin. > > I am seriously considering VG's for my XL and am interested in > whatever info I can find on the subject. > > Tim > > Do not archive > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159880#159880 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:15 PM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nasty remarks No Bob, by now you probably had a chance to read what was actually said and saw where these two GENTLEMEN realized it was an HONEST MISTAKE and DID apologize and it was accepted. People DO get tired of get advertised to death and the LAST THING we want to read on here is ANOTHER ADVERTISER or people with an attitude problem. I can honestly say I understand how they feel. I feel the same way. To say what you said, tends to give me the impress you are shallow-minded.....of course, that is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I DO want this forum to continue but I'm sure Matt doesn't want to have to keep "babysitting" our childish writing. I don't think it was his intention - not at all. Am I right Matt? If you want to leave the forum Bob, it's your prerogative....bon voyage! Larry --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:00 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: VGs Ahh, the Kenmore Cubs. I gotta chime in here: I have about 10 hours in each of those two planes and can tell you this is an apples to oranges comparison concerning the VGs. First, the plane with VGs ( "0CC" ) is a Cub Crafters Top cub with 180 ponies behind it. The prop size eludes me, but I think it was in the 84" range. It not only has a large number of VGs on the wings, but also strakes on the elevator. For climb, fully loaded, on a warm day you can easily see 2000fpm. That plane is almost un-stallable. I will not practice a power on stall with more than 80% power since the AOA is just too extreme. The minimum controllable airspeed is around 20MPH, if not lower since the pitot tube becomes inaccurate below 25MPH. You have full elevator authority even into stall, no mushing. If you are not watching the altimeter you may not even realize a stall has been entered, you almost have to push the nose over to encourage a break. The other plane ( "66P" ) is a true PA-18 with a 150hp engine, no VGs, no strakes and a prop that was close to 92" iirc. It still gets off the water quickly, and you can even get it up on the step with reduced power on a warm day with good technique. For stalls the elevator authority mushes in the low 30s and it stalls soon after with a true break. I have also done full power on stalls without being vertical in this plane. All that being said, the 0CC solidly outperforms 66P in every way. The low speed qualities of 0CC are the best I have ever had the pleasure to fly. I believe this is due to the VGs and strakes, but having never flown another Top Cub there is no control group and the claim can not be proved. 0CC and 66P are very different planes with different weights and different floats mounted at different angles, all that affects the low speed handling. Here are some pics that were done thanks to 0CC a few months ago in the Cascade Mountains: http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/LakeIsabel http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/HancockAndCalliganLakes And some pics thanks to 66P in the Olympic Mountains: http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/WynoocheBFR Enjoy! PS: Nothing is more confusing to a boater than blowing past an airplane moving in the same direction. The look in their eyes is priceless as they try to figure out how a plane is moving slower than them. On Jan 22, 2008 4:40 PM, Tim Juhl wrote: > > Please note that I asked for the name of the vendor... sorry if I got > everyone excited. > > I have talked to people who have installed VG's on other aircraft and > reported measurable improvements. For example, Kenmore Air Service in > Seattle was operating two super cubs on floats. One had VG's. I spoke to > one of their instructors who said the AC with VGs outperformed the other by > quite a margin. > > I am seriously considering VG's for my XL and am interested in whatever > info I can find on the subject. > > Tim > > Do not archive > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159880#159880 > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:06 PM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Front Wheel Instructions I am about finished with my fuselage on my 601 XL, and getting ready to start installing the landing gear. I copied the Gear/Brake Lines section 6-G down from Zenith's builders web site. But I couldn't find a section of the instruction manual for installation of the front landing gear. Is there one? Or do you just build it from the plans? Or is it complete enough from the factory to just put it in? I have the factory complete kit. Don Mountain --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:30 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs I don't see it like the guys from Australia as pushing, more like providing info, which I like. I wish more people would provide information about their products especially when their seems to be a lot of interest on the list. Besides when I don't want to read about something I just hit delete. No outburst, just delete. It takes about a half a second. I've been on this list and other forums a long time and have gotten into quite a few tit or tats which I have sometimes regretted. It's easy to get a rep of being an asshole if you are not careful. So, we should just choose our words more carefully. Once you hit the enter key, it's in writing and you can't take it back. Take care, LRM www.airhawg.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Goldner" Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:15 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs > > > David, > I apologize for the outburst. > I didn't look at who the sender was until after sending the nasty email. > The > guys from Australia have been pushing VGs hard on this site, sometimes > without stating that they were selling them, and mistook you for them. > I know you are not trying to sell VGs and I hope you accept my apology. > Les > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:56 AM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out >> here near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a >> sales agent for anyone. >> >> David Mikesell >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >> 209-224-4485 >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> www.skyguynca.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Les Goldner" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:53 PM >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> > >> > >> > I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell >> VGs on this >> > site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased >> information, not >> > to >> > see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. >> ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! >> > Les >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:02 AM >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> >> >> >> The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be >> >> placed on the leading edge of the elevator for more authority >> >> during the low speed flaring of the airplane. >> >> >> >> David Mikesell >> >> 230 Theresa Drive, #6 >> >> Cloverdale, CA 95425 >> >> 209-224-4485 >> >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> >> www.skyguynca.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "THOMAS SMALL" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:25 AM >> >> Subject: Zenith-List: VGs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> have you installed the VGs on the elevator? >> >> > >> >> > do not archive >> >> > >> >> > ...might you mean stab? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 11:04 AM > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:47 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness Doug, Thanks for the advise, I'll take it into consideration. do not archive Art --- MacDonald Doug wrote: > > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting > on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are > going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal > brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still > going to oil can so I will probably add another > diagnal brace there once I'm flying. > > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so > cannot comment on how stiff they will be. > > Doug MacDonald > NW Ontario, Canada > Scratch building CH-701 > Working on wiring the inst panel > > Do not archive > > > List, > > > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend > > increasing material thickness of any particular > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning > > etc...? > > If so which ones? > > > > > > Art > > Scrathin 701 > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:04 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness Thanks for the input. do not archive Art --- John Marzulli wrote: > Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise > reduction. > > http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html > > For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4" > sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The > whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone. > > As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to > 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may > also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them > at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin. > > Good luck! > > On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug wrote: > > > > > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting > > on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are > > going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal > > brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area > > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still > > going to oil can so I will probably add another > > diagnal brace there once I'm flying. > > > > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing > > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done > > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so > > cannot comment on how stiff they will be. > > > > Doug MacDonald > > NW Ontario, Canada > > Scratch building CH-701 > > Working on wiring the inst panel > > > > Do not archive > > > > > List, > > > > > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend > > > increasing material thickness of any particular > > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning > > > etc...? > > > If so which ones? > > > > > > > > > Art > > > Scrathin 701 > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > John Marzulli > http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ > > "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot > harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. > -Airplane The Movie > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Firewall Boot for sealing Rudder Rods 701 From: "norriedh" Much appreciation to those who replied! Excellent ideas and I now have several approaches to try out. The "cone shape" from sailplane experience, I know I will use on at least another (different) application. I think I will also weigh the snowmobile boots --- if they only weigh 8 oz and work in -25 F as Ben Haas says --- then they could really be worth a try -- although i am trying not to add weight if I can. Thanks again Douglas N (do not archive) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159909#159909 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:07 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ? Thanks Joe Motis Do not archive **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:34 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: re: VDO sender stuck Kevin, I noticed that one of my aux tanks had a stuck VDO sender after I installed my wings. Gauge was showing fuel when in fact the tank was empty. I pounded on the wing in the tank area and it "Unstuck". It probably was a result of my installing the sender float too close to the aft skin of the fuel tank and when the tank was a little stressed after the LE skin install, it permitted contact with the float. I was afraid that after I fueled the tank, it would not show any fuel use but would stick in flight. Bottom line: No problem in 343 hours. The force of the fuel I suspect is enough to give clearance to the float and/or in flight vibrations keep it from sticking - hope this is your problem. Tony Graziano XL; N493TG; 343 hrs ---------------- I have a VDO sender that's stuck. Other than picking up the wing and shaking it, what can I do? Regards, Kevin Kinney ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:59 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L" angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without creating extra rivet lines. DO NOT ARCHIVE Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters, MO Thanks for the input. do not archive Art --- John Marzulli wrote: > Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise > reduction. > > http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html > > For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4" > sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The > whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone. > > As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to > 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may > also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them > at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin. > > Good luck! > > On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug wrote: > > > > > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting > > on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are > > going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal > > brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area > > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still > > going to oil can so I will probably add another > > diagnal brace there once I'm flying. > > > > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing > > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done > > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so > > cannot comment on how stiff they will be. > > > > Doug MacDonald > > NW Ontario, Canada > > Scratch building CH-701 > > Working on wiring the inst panel > > > > Do not archive > > > > > List, > > > > > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend > > > increasing material thickness of any particular > > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning > > > etc...? > > > If so which ones? > > > > > > > > > Art > > > Scrathin 701 > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > John Marzulli > http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ > > "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot > harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. > -Airplane The Movie > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:53 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Front Wheel Instructions I didn't find anything in the photo assembly guide on the front gear and just followed the plans. Lance Gingell suggests following the CH801 guide on this (although it lacks the reinforcing "U"): http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/gear-nose-s1.pdf http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/gear-nose-s2.pdf There is a little in the HomebuiltHELP Quick-build kit DVD. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:31 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Front Wheel Instructions I am about finished with my fuselage on my 601 XL, and getting ready to start installing the landing gear. I copied the Gear/Brake Lines section 6-G down from Zenith's builders web site. But I couldn't find a section of the instruction manual for installation of the front landing gear. Is there one? Or do you just build it from the plans? Or is it complete enough from the factory to just put it in? I have the factory complete kit. Don Mountain ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:26 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs Joe: VGs are vortex generators. They are tiny vanes which project up from the surface and create a vortex which flows downstream. The vortex mixes with the faster moving airstream above the surface and sweeps some of it down into the slower boundary layer air, adding energy which tends to keep the boundary layer attached to the surface. On an airfoil, keeping the boundary layer attached reduces the speed at which the airfoil finally stalls. George Swinford ----- Original Message ----- From: Joemotis@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ? Thanks Joe Motis Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 1/22/2008 11:04 AM ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:57 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs Joe, VGs are Vortex Generators. If you Google these words you will find many descriptions, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator. Even though Chris Heintz has not recommended them for the 701, some people are replacing their slats with these VGs. Regards, Les _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joemotis@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ? Thanks Joe Motis Do not archive _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:33 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Holding Nose up Hi Paul 'Sorry it has taken so long to answer. I've been visiting my daughter in Seattle. I forgot to take the charger for my laptop, so I've been incommunicado for the past 4 days. The way I visualize this, is that, ideally, the horizontal stabilizer should be installed so that, at cruise with neutral trim and elevator, it exerts a downward force that just balances the moment exerted by the heavy weight of the engine at the front of the aircraft. I think that would be the minimum drag design. ZAC told me that the zodiac stabilizer was symmetrical--an inspection of the drawings would tell me the same thing, if I was clever enough to look. So, I think, that, if the stabilizer was parallel to the airstream flowing aft of the wings at cruise, then it would not produce a force up or down. Since, in tractor designs, the function of the stabilizer is to balance the weight of the engine up front, then the stabilizer must be angled slightly upwards w.r.t. the airstream. Then, just like when you angle your hand upward out the window of a moving car, it would generate the required upward force. Since an airplane in flight will rotate around the cg, the balancing moment must be w.r.t. the cg. When the airplane touches down on the mains, the nose (hopefully) will be upward. If the nose is high (relative to cruise angle of attack) then the tail will be low, and the horizontal stabilizer will be making an upward angle with respect to the airflow past the airplane. Thus (I think) that the air flowing past the stabilizer will be pushing the stabilizer upward, driving the nose wheel to the ground. The elevator, of course, is designed to bend the air flow so that, by pulling back on the stick, the force exerted by the stabilizer/elevator can be changed from the upward force that would exist with a neutral elevator, to a net downward force. But, if I interpret Stan's results correctly, the unmodified zodiac elevator is incapable of holding the nose up after touch down. But, Stan's addition of VGs to the underside of the stabilizer, increased the effectiveness of the elevator on Stan's airplane. Then he could hold the nose up until he slowed to 20 mph. So that's what it looks like to me. My understanding of VGs is that they function by causing the laminar boundary layer over an airfoil to transition to a turbulent boundary layer. Turbulent boundary layers (for reasons I do not understand) stay attached better than laminar boundary layers. And by staying attached, the airflow over the airfoil exerts a net lower pressure on the bottom of the stabilizer/elevator (think Bernoulli's law), thus effectively pulling the tail down (and the nose up). There are a couple of other effects in play here. One is that, on the ground, the plane will rotate around the mains, rather than around the cg. The cg is forward of mains, so the moment arm of the stabilizer around the center of rotation is shorter when the plane is on the ground. So moment from the force produced by the stabilizer will be less than the moment produced by the same force when the plane is flying. So, on the ground, a greater downward force is needed to raise the nose than when flying. The second is that, when the plane is flying, the wings must cause the airstream aft of the wings to deflect downward (to balance the upward lift on the wings). So, the horizontal stabilizer sees an airstream that has a net downward velocity. If the horizontal stabilizer is to generate a net upward force at cruise, then it must be inclined upward at a great angle than would be necessary if the airflow were horizontal. On the ground, the wings still try to deflect the air flow downward. But the ground is in the way. So the airstream the horizontal stabilizer/elevator sees will be flowing nearly parallel to the ground. The horizontal air flow on the ground should further increase the upward force generated by the horizontal stabilizer. So, why is Stan's result important to me, since zodiac's have been landing just fine for years, plunking their nose down on the runway right after touch down? One reason would be soft field takeoff and landing capability. In a 152, a skilled pilot can land on the mains, and keep the nose up, until, maybe 20 mph or less. And with full up elevator one can taxi a 152 with the nose way up in the air, thus reducing the nose wheel loading. I'd like to be able to imitate that with my zodiac on some of the back country airfields here in western Montana. So, I think Stan's result is pretty exciting. First I have this airplane to build! Terry At 04:09 AM 1/20/2008 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Terry, > >I'm confused. Why does touching down change the force generated by the >stabilizer from downward to upward? Do you experience a huge difference >in control feedback when the wheels touch down? > >If the VGs have any impact at all on this phenomenon, it must be because >the VGs generate lift in the negative direction for the stabilizer. That >way the lift would be reduced as the airspeed and ground speed are reduced >during landing. I don't see how this is possible since the stabilizer has >a positive angle of attack after touchdown. However, the combined >stabilizer and elevator must have a negative total force on the airplane's >tail for the nose to be elevated on landing. > >Maybe I'll just stay confused. > >Paul > > >At 08:48 PM 1/19/2008, you wrote: >>Since the stabilizer exerts a downward force to balance the moment of the >>engine around the aircraft cg, the symetrical airfoil must be angled >>slightly downward to generate a downward force with neutral trim. After >>touchdown, with the nose up, the stabilizer would be angled upward, >>generating an upward force that would rotate the A/C around the mains, >>pushing the nose down. Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:50 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Holding Nose up Whoops--got that backwards. The stabilizer generates a downward force, so must be angled downward at neutral elevator and trim. What can I say--I'm a geometrically challenged chemical engineer--that's why I'm not an ME. I think I'll go to bed and try to rethink my reply in the morning. Terry At 11:46 PM 1/22/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Paul > >'Sorry it has taken so long to answer. I've been visiting my daughter in >Seattle. I forgot to take the charger for my laptop, so I've been >incommunicado for the past 4 days. > >The way I visualize this, is that, ideally, the horizontal stabilizer >should be installed so that, at cruise with neutral trim and elevator, it >exerts a downward force that just balances the moment exerted by the heavy >weight of the engine at the front of the aircraft. I think that would be >the minimum drag design. ZAC told me that the zodiac stabilizer was >symmetrical--an inspection of the drawings would tell me the same thing, >if I was clever enough to look. So, I think, that, if the stabilizer was >parallel to the airstream flowing aft of the wings at cruise, then it >would not produce a force up or down. Since, in tractor designs, the >function of the stabilizer is to balance the weight of the engine up >front, then the stabilizer must be angled slightly upwards w.r.t. the >airstream. Then, just like when you angle your hand upward out the window >of a moving car, it would generate the required upward force. Since an >airplane in flight will rotate around the cg, the balancing moment must be >w.r.t. the cg. > >When the airplane touches down on the mains, the nose (hopefully) will be >upward. If the nose is high (relative to cruise angle of attack) then the >tail will be low, and the horizontal stabilizer will be making an upward >angle with respect to the airflow past the airplane. Thus (I think) that >the air flowing past the stabilizer will be pushing the stabilizer upward, >driving the nose wheel to the ground. > >The elevator, of course, is designed to bend the air flow so that, by >pulling back on the stick, the force exerted by the stabilizer/elevator >can be changed from the upward force that would exist with a neutral >elevator, to a net downward force. But, if I interpret Stan's results >correctly, the unmodified zodiac elevator is incapable of holding the nose >up after touch down. But, Stan's addition of VGs to the underside of the >stabilizer, increased the effectiveness of the elevator on Stan's >airplane. Then he could hold the nose up until he slowed to 20 mph. > >So that's what it looks like to me. > >My understanding of VGs is that they function by causing the laminar >boundary layer over an airfoil to transition to a turbulent boundary >layer. Turbulent boundary layers (for reasons I do not understand) stay >attached better than laminar boundary layers. And by staying attached, the >airflow over the airfoil exerts a net lower pressure on the bottom of the >stabilizer/elevator (think Bernoulli's law), thus effectively pulling the >tail down (and the nose up). > >There are a couple of other effects in play here. > >One is that, on the ground, the plane will rotate around the mains, rather >than around the cg. The cg is forward of mains, so the moment arm of the >stabilizer around the center of rotation is shorter when the plane is on >the ground. So moment from the force produced by the stabilizer will be >less than the moment produced by the same force when the plane is flying. >So, on the ground, a greater downward force is needed to raise the nose >than when flying. > >The second is that, when the plane is flying, the wings must cause the >airstream aft of the wings to deflect downward (to balance the upward lift >on the wings). So, the horizontal stabilizer sees an airstream that has a >net downward velocity. If the horizontal stabilizer is to generate a net >upward force at cruise, then it must be inclined upward at a great angle >than would be necessary if the airflow were horizontal. On the ground, the >wings still try to deflect the air flow downward. But the ground is in the >way. So the airstream the horizontal stabilizer/elevator sees will be >flowing nearly parallel to the ground. The horizontal air flow on the >ground should further increase the upward force generated by the >horizontal stabilizer. > >So, why is Stan's result important to me, since zodiac's have been landing >just fine for years, plunking their nose down on the runway right after >touch down? One reason would be soft field takeoff and landing capability. >In a 152, a skilled pilot can land on the mains, and keep the nose up, >until, maybe 20 mph or less. And with full up elevator one can taxi a 152 >with the nose way up in the air, thus reducing the nose wheel loading. I'd >like to be able to imitate that with my zodiac on some of the back country >airfields here in western Montana. So, I think Stan's result is pretty >exciting. > >First I have this airplane to build! > >Terry Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.