Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:06 AM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (Terry Phillips)
2. 01:43 AM - Firewall Boot of High temp Silicone rubber? (Brett Hanley)
3. 03:46 AM - Re: Holding Nose up (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:52 AM - Re: VGs (Randall J. Hebert)
5. 06:35 AM - Re: Firewall Boot of High temp Silicone rubber? (Juan Vega)
6. 06:38 AM - Re: Differences in Lyc O-235 (Juan Vega)
7. 06:43 AM - Re: VGs (j. davis)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: VGs (Randall J. Hebert)
9. 07:23 AM - Re: VGs ()
10. 07:28 AM - Re: VGs (Dave Austin)
11. 07:41 AM - Re: Part Stoutness (LRM)
12. 08:05 AM - Re: VGs (John M. Goodings)
13. 08:14 AM - Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 (LarryMcFarland)
14. 08:19 AM - Re: VGs (LarryMcFarland)
15. 08:22 AM - Re: VGs (LarryMcFarland)
16. 08:25 AM - Re: Part Stoutness (James Sagerser)
17. 09:26 AM - Rudder hinge repair (Carl)
18. 09:26 AM - Holding the nose wheel off at landing (eedetail)
19. 10:04 AM - Re: VGs (Bill Berle)
20. 10:05 AM - Re: Part Stoutness (Bill Berle)
21. 10:14 AM - Re: VGs (Ronald Steele)
22. 10:19 AM - Re: Rudder hinge repair (Bill Berle)
23. 10:21 AM - Re: VGs (Maarten Versteeg)
24. 10:25 AM - Re: Part Stoutness (NYTerminat@aol.com)
25. 10:33 AM - Re: VGs (kmccune)
26. 10:44 AM - Re: Holding Nose up (Terry Phillips)
27. 11:29 AM - Re: VGs (Bill Berle)
28. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: VGs (Bill Berle)
29. 12:11 PM - Advise (steve)
30. 12:28 PM - Re: Advise (Paul Mulwitz)
31. 12:40 PM - Garmin GTX 320A with Encoder for sale (alex_01)
32. 12:50 PM - Re: Advise (Bill Berle)
33. 01:05 PM - Aeronautical expertise (George Swinford)
34. 01:34 PM - Re: Advise (Gig Giacona)
35. 01:35 PM - Re: Advice (THOMAS SMALL)
36. 01:40 PM - Re: Holding the nose wheel off at landing (Ron Lendon)
37. 01:45 PM - VG's (Joe Spencer)
38. 02:38 PM - Re: Advise (Trainnut01@aol.com)
39. 02:51 PM - Re: VG's (n801bh@netzero.com)
40. 02:55 PM - Re: VGs (kmccune)
41. 02:56 PM - Re: Advise (n801bh@netzero.com)
42. 03:05 PM - Intro and William Wynn Question (Bill Pagan)
43. 03:05 PM - Re: Holding Nose up (n801bh@netzero.com)
44. 03:07 PM - Re: VG's (kmccune)
45. 03:18 PM - The virtues of a flying slow....and landing slower.... (swater6)
46. 03:20 PM - Re: VG's (John Bolding)
47. 03:32 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Craig Payne)
48. 03:39 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Bill Naumuk)
49. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: VG's (n801bh@netzero.com)
50. 04:06 PM - rudder gap? (john butterfield)
51. 04:50 PM - Re: rudder gap? (LarryMcFarland)
52. 04:52 PM - Re: Holding Nose up (Terry Phillips)
53. 04:55 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Randall J. Hebert)
54. 05:07 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Bill Naumuk)
55. 05:17 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (LHusky@aol.com)
56. 05:26 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Randall J. Hebert)
57. 06:22 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Larry H)
58. 06:37 PM - Re: VG's and the generosity of people on this list. (Joemotis@AOL.COM)
59. 06:39 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Larry H)
60. 07:07 PM - Re: Part Stoutness (LRM)
61. 07:20 PM - Corvairs (LRM)
62. 07:20 PM - lenght and pitch (LRM)
63. 07:25 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Larry H)
64. 07:37 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Bill Pagan)
65. 07:58 PM - length and pitch (Joe Spencer)
66. 08:14 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (Larry H)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 |
Congratulations Eddie. Good luck with the rest of your testing.
I'm curious if you finished and installed your wing root fairings?
Terry
At 11:58 AM 1/21/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Fellow Listers,
>
>After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took to
>the air for the first time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a
>slightly heavy right wing. Details of engine temps, speeds and stall
>characteristics are on my website;
>http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve
>
>The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger after
>it's first flight (no sound);
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM
>
>I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special
>thanks to Scott Laughlin, Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web
>sites which where always very helpful when I got stuck.
>
>Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it,
>Eddie Seve
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Firewall Boot of High temp Silicone rubber? |
I have the capacity to produce custom high temp silicone rubber boots for the steering
rods. This material is highly heat resistant, light and very flexible
even in sub zero weather. I doubt a set would weigh more than 3oz. Silicone
would be quite permanent. Should last the life of the plane. I would need some
input about the shape desired before investing in the tooling. I think a conical
shape would be best. The cone could be placed on either side of the firewall.
These would work on all Zenith models and could double as seals on other
firewall penetrations. Any one have another place where they would like a custom
rubber part for their plane or Corsair conversion? I would imagine retail
price to be around $20.00 a set because it is a limited run part and a pretty
hefty investment in tooling. I guess if we want cheap we need a new hobby.
If someone could someone measure the throw of the steering rods and the height
of the slots I could get some more information together.
Brett
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Holding Nose up |
Hi Terry ,
Thanks for writing. I too am a retired challenged engineer, but my
field was electronics rather than those funny little chemical
things. (Actually, I started majoring in chemistry but managed to
screw that up -- but that is another story for another
day.) Fortunately, the area I am challenged in is not geometry --
especially when it comes to visualizing airplane dynamic
balances. (When I broke my relationship with the chemistry
department, I changed my major to Mathematics.)
Yes, the forces exerted by the stabilizer and elevator are generally
downward. Only when you push on the stick is there an upward force
from the elevator, and you don't tend to do that often. I figure
that means the leading edge of the stabilizer should be slightly down
compared to the trailing edge. I haven't yet set my stabilizer in
place so I am not sure how the design calls out this angle.
If you use tricycle gear configuration then the main wheels must be
behind the airplane's CG. If not, the tail will slide along the
runway rather than the nose gear meeting the runway. When landing,
the transition from controlling rotation around the CG to rotation
around the main wheels happens as you described nicely in your fist
message yesterday. Since the forces were in balance and probably
nicely trimmed out just before touching down it is the amount of
nose-down force caused by the relationship between the CG and the
main wheels that makes this whole story work. If the main wheels are
too far behind the CG then the nose will come crashing down as the
weight of the plane is transferred from the wings to the
wheels. This problem is more pronounced if the CG is at the front
end of the envelope.
You can spend a lot of time getting the CG to work for flying
conditions, and this has little impact on the behavior of the plane
when the wheels are holding the plane up. It is more important that
the flying stability is correct than the landing dynamics are
comfortable. That means (to me) that the way to correct the landing
situation is to move the wheels rather than moving the CG. For this
tendency that some (not all) Zodiacs seem to have to force the nose
down quickly on landing the solution seems to be to move the main
wheels forward. I don't know how much movement is needed, but the
first step is to mount the main gear with the flat edge forward to
make the wheels move a little forward of the position they would have
if the flat edge is mounted facing aft. If this isn't enough to fix
the landing difficulty then it starts getting a lot harder to change
the plane to get nicer landing behavior.
The other side of the main wheel vs. CG question comes in when you
have 250 pound folks standing on the step behind the wing to get into
the plane. If the wheels are positioned nicely for the landing
dynamics to work out then the plane will tend to drop to its tail
when the big guy (or gal) tries to get in. As with chemical and
electrical engineering, airplane design is a game of trade-offs.
I hope this discussion helps us understand the landing issue. My
plan is to use the flat side of the main landing gear mounted forward
and hope for the best.
Good luck,
Paul
At 11:47 PM 1/22/2008, you wrote:
>Whoops--got that backwards. The stabilizer generates a downward
>force, so must be angled downward at neutral elevator and trim. What
>can I say--I'm a geometrically challenged chemical engineer--that's
>why I'm not an ME. I think I'll go to bed and try to rethink my
>reply in the morning.
>
>Terry
Message 4
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Joe
I have always been reluctant to ask questions like that because of some
of the outbursts that appear on this list.
Last night I had the opportunity to attend the ASF Seminar on "5
Mistakes pilots make."
One issue that came up is a pilots reluctance to ask !!!
While the issue was atc/weather it does apply throughout this set of
events
My question is that an earlier post indicated that VGs will increase
wing loading.
Isn't that what happens with the wing spar? Isn't the spar's purpose to
direct flow over the top of the airfoil, thus increasing the wing
loading?
And then isn't the wing designed for that?
I Don't Know. I am just asking.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Joemotis@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs
OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
Thanks Joe Motis
Do not archive
________________________________
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
in the new year.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Boot of High temp Silicone rubber? |
go to the zenith magazine articles from the 1990s. there is an article there for
making Boots with RTV High Temp.
JUan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jan 23, 2008 4:39 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall Boot of High temp Silicone rubber?
>
>I have the capacity to produce custom high temp silicone rubber boots for the
steering rods. This material is highly heat resistant, light and very flexible
even in sub zero weather. I doubt a set would weigh more than 3oz. Silicone
would be quite permanent. Should last the life of the plane. I would need some
input about the shape desired before investing in the tooling. I think a conical
shape would be best. The cone could be placed on either side of the firewall.
These would work on all Zenith models and could double as seals on other
firewall penetrations. Any one have another place where they would like a
custom rubber part for their plane or Corsair conversion? I would imagine retail
price to be around $20.00 a set because it is a limited run part and a pretty
hefty investment in tooling. I guess if we want cheap we need a new hobby.
>
> If someone could someone measure the throw of the steering rods and the height
of the slots I could get some more information together.
>
> Brett
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Differences in Lyc O-235 |
nice news is LC226 will run on 93 octane.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
>Sent: Jan 22, 2008 5:53 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235
>
>
>www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Lycoming/Lyc_Cert_list.html
>
> T/O Compression
>Model HP RPM Fuel Ratio
>Suffix
>O-235-L2C 118 2800 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as -L2A but
>with Slick Magnetos -15
>O-235-N2C 116 2800 100/100LL 8.10:1 Same as -L2C but
>lower comp. ratio and power -15
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
>Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:33 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Differences in Lyc O-235
>
>
>Anybody know the difference in the O-235-L2C and the O-235-N2C?
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159852#159852
>
>
Message 7
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Les Goldner wrote:
>
> David,
> I apologize for the outburst.
> I didn't look at who the sender was until after sending the nasty email. The
> guys from Australia have been pushing VGs hard on this site, sometimes
> without stating that they were selling them, and mistook you for them.
> I know you are not trying to sell VGs and I hope you accept my apology.
> Les
Greetings... I just wanted to chime in here that I am *extremely* happy
with the VGs I installed on IGGY's elevator, and I'm thankful for the
R&D done by 'the guys from Australia'. My 701 now has elevator authority
at low speed, low power settings, and its nasty tendency to drop like a
brick from 10-15 feet above the strip has bee tamed. I will *not* be
removing my slats, but I think the elevator VGs are a Good Thing which
correct one of the very few undesirable flight characteristics that the
CH701 has.
--
Regards, J.
flying: Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 500 hrs.
building: Sonex #325 (C-FJNJ), Jabiru 3300/6, 99% completed
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca
voice: 519.289.1527 http://www.cleco.ca
c/o Brandywine Aviation 5507 Irish Dr., Appin, ON
N42 47.33 W081 36.50 31/13 2000+ x 60', elev: 740'
-------------------------------------------------
To most people the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
Message 8
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Leading edge slats is what I meant, not spars.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randall J.
Hebert
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:39 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs
Joe
I have always been reluctant to ask questions like that because of some
of the outbursts that appear on this list.
Last night I had the opportunity to attend the ASF Seminar on "5
Mistakes pilots make."
One issue that came up is a pilots reluctance to ask !!!
While the issue was atc/weather it does apply throughout this set of
events
My question is that an earlier post indicated that VGs will increase
wing loading.
Isn't that what happens with the wing spar? Isn't the spar's purpose to
direct flow over the top of the airfoil, thus increasing the wing
loading?
And then isn't the wing designed for that?
I Don't Know. I am just asking.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Joemotis@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs
OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
Thanks Joe Motis
Do not archive
________________________________
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
in the new year.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 9
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If you review the posts I think you'll find that the VGs are being touted in many
cases as a replacement for the slats since they produce less drag and may allow
faster and more economical cruising. You are correct in that the effect of
the leading edge slats is to keep the laminar flow longer into increasing AOA.
The debate is whether slats or VGs do it better. Some guys may want both....
kinda like wearing a belt and suspenders.
The wing was designed for as much load as the anticipated flight enevelope would
produce. I don't think that slow flight at high AOA would produce more wing
load whether with slats or VGs or both. I think the risk is with the high energy
aggressive maneuver.
Ed
---- "Randall J. Hebert" <randy@rjhebertassoc.com> wrote:
> Leading edge slats is what I meant, not spars.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Randall J Hebert
>
> Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
> Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
> Lafayette, Louisiana
> PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randall J.
> Hebert
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:39 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs
>
>
> Joe
> I have always been reluctant to ask questions like that because of some
> of the outbursts that appear on this list.
>
> Last night I had the opportunity to attend the ASF Seminar on "5
> Mistakes pilots make."
>
> One issue that came up is a pilots reluctance to ask !!!
> While the issue was atc/weather it does apply throughout this set of
> events
>
> My question is that an earlier post indicated that VGs will increase
> wing loading.
>
> Isn't that what happens with the wing spar? Isn't the spar's purpose to
> direct flow over the top of the airfoil, thus increasing the wing
> loading?
> And then isn't the wing designed for that?
>
> I Don't Know. I am just asking.
>
>
>
>
>
> Randall J Hebert
>
> Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
> Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
> Lafayette, Louisiana
> PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Joemotis@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:54 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs
>
>
> OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
>
> Thanks Joe Motis
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
> <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
> in the new year.
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronh
> ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Re VGs and wing loading..
IMSO, VGs on the wings only purpose is to reduce the loss of lift due
to higher angles of attack. They will not give "extra" lift at normal
angle. They do not seem to add any noticable drag.
Even so, I would not advise going into a 90 degree bank with full power
at 130 mph just to prove this!
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, with VGs on wings only. I can hold the nose
off the runway down to around 20 mph IAS.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Part Stoutness |
That be me. I used automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand. You
can find it at NAPA. LRM www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Turnquist
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness
I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L"
angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without creating
extra rivet lines.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Terry Turnquist
601XL-Plans
St. Peters, MO
Art Olechowski <ifly4fun2@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Thanks for the input.
do not archive
Art
--- John Marzulli wrote:
> Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage
for noise
> reduction.
>
> http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html
>
> For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added
some 1/4"
> sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when
uncoordinated. The
> whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone.
>
> As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top
skins to
> 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer
blemished. You may
> also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces (
overlapping them
> at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin.
>
> Good luck!
>
> On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug wrote:
>
> >
> > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting
> > on the gear. The large bays of the fuselage sides are
> > going to be prone to oilcanning. I added one diagnal
> > brace to each bay on mine. I think the big area
> > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still
> > going to oil can so I will probably add another
> > diagnal brace there once I'm flying.
> >
> > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing
> > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy. I have done
> > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so
> > cannot comment on how stiff they will be.
> >
> > Doug MacDonald
> > NW Ontario, Canada
> > Scratch building CH-701
> > Working on wiring the inst panel
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> > > List,
> > >
> > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend
> > > increasing material thickness of any particular
> > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning
> > > etc...?
> > > If so which ones?
> > >
> > >
> > > Art
> > > Scrathin 701
> >
> >
> >
> > Be a better friend, newshound,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Be a better friend, newshound, and
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
1/22/2008 11:04 AM
Message 12
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To George Swinford:
What an excellent, succint, splendid description of VGs. Thank you - it
is the best statement I have seen, particularly with respect to
"energizing the boundary layer"!
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Carp/Ottawa.
VGs are vortex generators. They are tiny vanes which project up from
the surface and create a vortex which flows downstream. The vortex
mixes with the faster moving airstream above the surface and sweeps some
of it down into the slower boundary layer air, adding energy which tends
to keep the boundary layer attached to the surface. On an airfoil,
keeping the boundary layer attached reduces the speed at which the
airfoil finally stalls.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight of 601XL 19-5018 |
Hi Eddie,
Congratulations on your success.
I visited youtube and saw you taxiing your plane. Very nice!
Best regards,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
eddies wrote:
>
> Hi Fellow Listers,
>
> After 2 years of effort with a slow build kit, my Zodiac 19-5018, took to the
air for the first time on January 11. The test pilot reported only a slightly
heavy right wing. Details of engine temps, speeds and stall characteristics are
on my website;
> http://mykitlog.com/eddieseve
>
> The link below is a short video of my XL taxiing back to the hanger after it's
first flight (no sound);
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXL2BpEfgiM
>
> I'd like to thank ALL on the LIST for their help and advice. Special thanks to
Scott Laughlin, Bill Sewell and Lance Gingell for their web sites which where
always very helpful when I got stuck.
>
> Keep pulling those rivets, its so worth it,
> Eddie Seve :D
>
>
>
Message 14
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Well said! And for the record, if you do need to ream someone, that's
fine too, so long as you add "*do not archive*" below the comment so we
don't have to
read it over and over again in the archives.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
LRM wrote:
>
> I don't see it like the guys from Australia as pushing, more like
> providing info, which I like. I wish more people would provide
> information about their products especially when their seems to be a
> lot of interest on the list. Besides when I don't want to read about
> something I just hit delete. No outburst, just delete. It takes about
> a half a second. I've been on this list and other forums a long time
> and have gotten into quite a few tit or tats which I have sometimes
> regretted. It's easy to get a rep of being an asshole if you are not
> careful. So, we should just choose our words more carefully. Once
> you hit the enter key, it's in writing and you can't take it back.
> Take care, LRM www.airhawg.com.
Message 15
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Hi Joe,
You can read about VG's at this link,
http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php
Good information, well done.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Joemotis@aol.com wrote:
> OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
>
> Thanks Joe Motis
>
> Do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Part Stoutness |
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| Subject: | Rudder hinge repair |
After 12 years and 500 hrs rudder hinges on my 701 showed wear and play.
At this year's annual I made the following repair to the hinge parts on
the rudder.
Top Hinge: Used model a/c brass tubing 3/16 ID and 7/32 OD to make
bushings. Drilled the hinge to 13/64 then to 7/32 and press fiited
bushings.
Bottom hinge: Purchase bronze bushing 5/16 OD 3/16 ID ($1.50 at GBS).
Drilled hinge to 5/16 and press fitted bushing.
Total cost less than $5. including left-over tubing for 10 repairs and
one spare bushing. Attached two Photos. Sorry about focus.
Carl
701/amphibs/912
Message 18
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| Subject: | Holding the nose wheel off at landing |
Folks,
you might try the following technique. It took me a bit to figure out, but seems
to work.
On short final, bring the rpm up from idle, blow a bit of air over the wing and
carry it thru touchdown. You'll be in slow flight and with practice can hold the
nose off. I think that the elevator gets in a wind shadow from the main wing,
a little bit of air blowing over the wing give the elevator a bit more authority,
just enough to keep the nose up.
TimE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159992#159992
Message 19
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The slats create more "attached" flow, likely nothing laminar about it.
The VG's accomplish the same OVERALL goal as the slats... adding more
high energy air into the boundary layer... but accomplish this goal
differently. Although I am not an engineer by any means, I can
definitely see the difference. The VG's drag some swirling air back
downward towards the wing surface, which allows the wig to operate at a
higher AOA without stalling. The slats ACCELERATE the airflow FASTER
across the top of the wing. I will leave it to the aerodynamicists to
explain if or how or why one works better.
However, the reason we have chosen this boxy little airplane that was
hit so hard with the ugly stick, is that it has the most exceptional
STOL capability available in any low-cost non-ultralight airplane. Only
the $100,000+ Monster Cubs, Fieseler Storch, Helio Couirier, and a
couple of other highly specialized and 10X more expensive aircraft have
this ability. So speaking only for myself I cannot imagine why you would
do any modifications that would reduce this ability. If removing the
slats makes the 701 more fuel efficient, but at the expense of the STOL
ability, it seems to me you are losing part of the steak in order to get
another couple of forkfuls of the salad :)
The potential problm with VG's is indeed at higher speeds, or flying
through severe turbulence... where the wing's "delayed" stall could
allow a gust to apply more bending/twisting loads to the wing.
dredmoody@cox.net wrote:
>
> If you review the posts I think you'll find that the VGs are being touted in
many cases as a replacement for the slats since they produce less drag and may
allow faster and more economical cruising. You are correct in that the effect
of the leading edge slats is to keep the laminar flow longer into increasing
AOA. The debate is whether slats or VGs do it better. Some guys may want both....
kinda like wearing a belt and suspenders.
>
> The wing was designed for as much load as the anticipated flight enevelope would
produce. I don't think that slow flight at high AOA would produce more wing
load whether with slats or VGs or both. I think the risk is with the high energy
aggressive maneuver.
>
> Ed
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Part Stoutness |
The double stick tape is a good idea, however it might be wise to put
three rivets in... one on each end and one in the middle... to prevent
the TINY vibrations from ever loosening the tape. Yeah, the airplane
will have a million and three rivets instead of just a million :)
LRM wrote:
> That be me. I used automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand. You
> can find it at NAPA. LRM www.skyhawg.com <http://www.skyhawg.com>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Terry Turnquist <mailto:ter_turn@yahoo.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness
>
> I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L"
> angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without
> creating extra rivet lines.
>
Message 21
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INAAE (I'm not an aeronautical engineer) but I think replacing slats
with VG's is probably a lot safer than adding VGs to an airfoil that
wasn't designed to have either. VGs will increase the AOA where
stall happens. Maneuvering speed is based on speed at which the wing
will stall given a certain vertical wind gust. The stall is
instantaneous and keeps the wing from being overloaded by the gust.
By adding VGs it might be possible to increase the stall AOA enough
where to where the gust over stresses the wing before stall happens.
Thus you might want to reduce maneuvering speed in a plane where VGs
have been added, like a HD/HDS/XL. etc.
Ron
On Jan 23, 2008, at 10:19 AM, <dredmoody@cox.net> <dredmoody@cox.net>
wrote:
>
> If you review the posts I think you'll find that the VGs are being
> touted in many cases as a replacement for the slats since they
> produce less drag and may allow faster and more economical
> cruising. You are correct in that the effect of the leading edge
> slats is to keep the laminar flow longer into increasing AOA. The
> debate is whether slats or VGs do it better. Some guys may want
> both.... kinda like wearing a belt and suspenders.
>
> The wing was designed for as much load as the anticipated flight
> enevelope would produce. I don't think that slow flight at high AOA
> would produce more wing load whether with slats or VGs or both. I
> think the risk is with the high energy aggressive maneuver.
>
> Ed
>
> ---- "Randall J. Hebert" <randy@rjhebertassoc.com> wrote:
>> Leading edge slats is what I meant, not spars.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Randall J Hebert
>>
>> Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
>> Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
>> Lafayette, Louisiana
>> PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Randall J.
>> Hebert
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:39 AM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs
>>
>>
>> Joe
>> I have always been reluctant to ask questions like that because of
>> some
>> of the outbursts that appear on this list.
>>
>> Last night I had the opportunity to attend the ASF Seminar on "5
>> Mistakes pilots make."
>>
>> One issue that came up is a pilots reluctance to ask !!!
>> While the issue was atc/weather it does apply throughout this set of
>> events
>>
>> My question is that an earlier post indicated that VGs will increase
>> wing loading.
>>
>> Isn't that what happens with the wing spar? Isn't the spar's
>> purpose to
>> direct flow over the top of the airfoil, thus increasing the wing
>> loading?
>> And then isn't the wing designed for that?
>>
>> I Don't Know. I am just asking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Randall J Hebert
>>
>> Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
>> Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
>> Lafayette, Louisiana
>> PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Joemotis@aol.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:54 PM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs
>>
>>
>> OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
>>
>> Thanks Joe Motis
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
>> <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?
>> NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
>> in the new year.
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://
>> www.matronh
>> ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
>> www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder hinge repair |
EXCELLENT job, but I have a couple of questions due to my own inexperience:
Were you still able to maintain enough "edge distance" from the enlarged
hole to the edge of the aluminum? Perhaps one of your preflight items
should be to look at the hinges to make sure cracks are not developing.
(I'm sure Heintz was conservative in the design, but there is an awfully
big rudder held on the airplane with two hinges that are awfully close
together. Three hinges means you can lose one and still have the rudder
stay on the airplane. Two hinges means you cannot lose one. And remember
you do not have a traditional vertical fin.)
Also, aluminum expands more than brass I think... when it gets warm how
are you going to make sure the brass bushings do not get loose?
(Have you thought about machining a groove in the lower part of the
bushing and putting in an E-clip or Circlip, more commonly known as a
Jesus clip, to retain it?)
Bill the New Guy
Carl wrote:
> After 12 years and 500 hrs rudder hinges on my 701 showed wear and
> play. At this year's annual I made the following repair to the hinge
> parts on the rudder.
> Top Hinge: Used model a/c brass tubing 3/16 ID and 7/32 OD to make
> bushings. Drilled the hinge to 13/64 then to 7/32 and press fiited
> bushings.
> Bottom hinge: Purchase bronze bushing 5/16 OD 3/16 ID ($1.50 at GBS).
> Drilled hinge to 5/16 and press fitted bushing.
> Total cost less than $5.
Message 23
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Hello Joe,
But the initial guess was not completely off the mark. In
a related avionics field of hang glider flying, VG actually
means variable geometry. In certain hang gliders the sail
tension is changed (reduced) to make the hang glider more
maneuverable during landing phase. This is variable
geometry since the leading edges of the wings are pushed
out less to achieve this reduction of tension.
Regards,
Maarten
601xl plans building wings
> Time: 10:07:57 PM PST US
> From: "Les Goldner" <lgold@quantum-associates.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs
>
> Joe,
> VGs are Vortex Generators. If you Google these words you will find many
> descriptions, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator.
> Even though Chris Heintz has not recommended them for the 701, some people
> are replacing their slats with these VGs.
> Regards,
> Les
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Joemotis@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs
>
>
> OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?
>
> Thanks Joe Motis
>
> Do not archive
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Part Stoutness |
That is exactly what I did except I used 5 in each piece. Works great,
thanks Larry!!
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 1/23/2008 1:07:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
victorbravo@sbcglobal.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
The double stick tape is a good idea, however it might be wise to put
three rivets in... one on each end and one in the middle... to prevent
the TINY vibrations from ever loosening the tape. Yeah, the airplane
will have a million and three rivets instead of just a million :)
LRM wrote:
> That be me. I used automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand. You
> can find it at NAPA. LRM www.skyhawg.com <http://www.skyhawg.com>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Terry Turnquist <mailto:ter_turn@yahoo.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness
>
> I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L"
> angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without
> creating extra rivet lines.
>
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 25
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At least in the case of the 701 we already have the above stated risk of a delayed
stall. The VGs may though allow a higher speed when this happens?
I have not read a single comment that states that VGs by them selves replace the
slats. But instead that a longer wing and VGs do. The basic claim is for a more
conventional landing and glide ratio. This reduces the drop that results from
the high drag of the 701 slats. But while also giving superior STOL performance.
Now for a high angle of attack spot landing the very reasons for removing
the slats give it an advantage on short spot landings. Basically places were
you shouldn't be landing anyway. (at least for 90% of us anyway)
Now in my case I need some good STOL performance when I eventually start landing
at home. But I certainly don't need to take off in 50 feet or land in 100! I
will still be kicking the STOL tail of those $100K planes with my little home
built plane. I will just have a more comfortable, for me landing experience when
I don't need to use a 100% effort landing.
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160004#160004
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Holding Nose up |
Paul
Thank you for the post. This is all starting to make much more sense to me.
And the discussion has proven to me, once again, a truism from my working
days. Only by explaining something, giving a talk, whatever, do I really
begin to understand it. I learn even more when I get it wrong the 1st time.
I have read many posts on this forum about which way the landing gear
should face. Now, finally, I'm beginning to understand what the discussion
is all about.
And, now I see that VGs on the underside of the stabilizer, can delay the
low speed stall of the stabilizer airfoil that occurs at high angle of
attack (i.e., nose up upon landing). Thanks Paul, Stan, Tony, and all who
responded. I think I can build a better airplane now, and, stabilizer VGs
will be part of it. I think I'll head for the shop and see if it has warmed
up from this morning's low of 34.
Terry
At 03:40 AM 1/23/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Terry ,
>
>Thanks for writing. I too am a retired challenged engineer, but my field
>was electronics rather than those funny little chemical
>things. (Actually, I started majoring in chemistry but managed to screw
>that up -- but that is another story for another day.) Fortunately, the
>area I am challenged in is not geometry -- especially when it comes to
>visualizing airplane dynamic balances. (When I broke my relationship with
>the chemistry department, I changed my major to Mathematics.)
>
>Yes, the forces exerted by the stabilizer and elevator are generally
>downward. Only when you push on the stick is there an upward force from
>the elevator, and you don't tend to do that often. I figure that means
>the leading edge of the stabilizer should be slightly down compared to the
>trailing edge. I haven't yet set my stabilizer in place so I am not sure
>how the design calls out this angle.
>
>If you use tricycle gear configuration then the main wheels must be behind
>the airplane's CG. If not, the tail will slide along the runway rather
>than the nose gear meeting the runway. When landing, the transition from
>controlling rotation around the CG to rotation around the main wheels
>happens as you described nicely in your fist message yesterday. Since the
>forces were in balance and probably nicely trimmed out just before
>touching down it is the amount of nose-down force caused by the
>relationship between the CG and the main wheels that makes this whole
>story work. If the main wheels are too far behind the CG then the nose
>will come crashing down as the weight of the plane is transferred from the
>wings to the wheels. This problem is more pronounced if the CG is at the
>front end of the envelope.
>
>You can spend a lot of time getting the CG to work for flying conditions,
>and this has little impact on the behavior of the plane when the wheels
>are holding the plane up. It is more important that the flying stability
>is correct than the landing dynamics are comfortable. That means (to me)
>that the way to correct the landing situation is to move the wheels rather
>than moving the CG. For this tendency that some (not all) Zodiacs seem to
>have to force the nose down quickly on landing the solution seems to be to
>move the main wheels forward. I don't know how much movement is needed,
>but the first step is to mount the main gear with the flat edge forward to
>make the wheels move a little forward of the position they would have if
>the flat edge is mounted facing aft. If this isn't enough to fix the
>landing difficulty then it starts getting a lot harder to change the plane
>to get nicer landing behavior.
>
>The other side of the main wheel vs. CG question comes in when you have
>250 pound folks standing on the step behind the wing to get into the
>plane. If the wheels are positioned nicely for the landing dynamics to
>work out then the plane will tend to drop to its tail when the big guy (or
>gal) tries to get in. As with chemical and electrical engineering,
>airplane design is a game of trade-offs.
>
>I hope this discussion helps us understand the landing issue. My plan is
>to use the flat side of the main landing gear mounted forward and hope for
>the best.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 27
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Putting VG's on is a LOT LESS likely to do harm, than just arbitrarily
removing the slats!
The "failure mode" of adding VG's onto the wrong wing (like a Lancair
leading edge for example) is that you make a bunch more drag and turn a
laminar low drag airfoil into a higher drag turbulent airfoil. But you
don't get a major change in the flight handling or the behavior of the wing.
The "failure mode" of removing the slats is that you have effectively
put a whole different airfoil on the airplane, which will then have
entirely different pitching moments (twisting force), entirely different
flow and pressure patterns across control surfaces, etc. This is a LOT
more risky and requires a LOT more engineering than simply forcing an
early transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow.
The people who removed the slats managed to side-step this problem
because they put the VG's on after the slats were removed, AND neither
the slat or no-slat airfoil of the 701 was a critical laminar wing. But
if you read carefully you will see several warnings to NOT remove the
slats and fly without VG's.
Try removing the slats on a more critical wing (F-86) and you will see
some very unsafe side-effects!
If you really want that extra drag reduction and STOL capability, you
have to go with the retractable slats, and if you do that you MUST make
them MANUALLY retractable slats. None of this "airflow-operated slat"
stuff without you having access to a wind tunnel and a big checkbook!
You need a bin Johnson Bar lever in the cockpit with a strong detent
latch. When you pull the lever the slats open and stay open. After you
have levitated out of the tennis court and have established a positive
rate of climb at about 50 MPH then you close the slats and enjoy the
deag reduction, rate of climb, fuel efficiency, trans-sonic cruise, etc.
Sorry to appear a little too authoritative on this subject, but it
appears that there are children playing with matches here without the
background to do so. I ain't an engineer either but in aviation I do
know where amateur knowledge ends and professional knowledge has to take
over.
>
> INAAE (I'm not an aeronautical engineer) but I think replacing slats
> with VG's is probably a lot safer than adding VGs to an airfoil that
> wasn't designed to have either.
Message 28
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Forgive my ranting but I do have some amount of exotic STOL experience.
Not bushplanes, but in high performance racing sailplanes. In
competition soaring, we often had to make (what would otherwise be
considered) emergency off-airport landings. I've landed fixed wing
airplanes (gliders with NO go-around capability) on helicopter pads,
backyards, farm fields, parking lots, etc.
Believe me, having a BAD glide ratio and a HIGH descent rate is exactly
what you WANT in STOL operations. I own a Taylorcraft, which can land in
only 300 feet, but it is not a good STOL plane because it "floats" and
glides too well. The real key to STOL is being able to adjust the amount
of drag, descent rate, and "float" your airplane has.
A better glide is NOT superior STOL performance. Being ale to pull a
lever and go from good glide to bad glide, low drag to high drag, and
back and forth as the situation demands... is the absolute key to
effective and SAFE STOL.
In the 701, the primary lever for this is the throttle. Second lever is
the control stick. When you pull the first lever all the way back you
SHOULD be coming down at a 30 or 45 degree angle, making a lot of drag
and with no tendency to float on touchdown. The second lever adjusts how
much airspeed (flare authority) you have while descending. When you push
the first lever forward a little bit, the plane slows or stops
descending. Adjusting these two levers allows you to hit the spot you
want to hit at the speed you want to hit it. THAT is STOL ability.
Having an airplane that does NOT come down like a free falling safe when
you pull the throttle lever back means you have LESS control of where
and how fast you hit the ground. My T-craft is a GREAT airplane that can
be used in limited STOL applications, but it suffers from this exact
problem. It is too efficient at the times you need to make a lot of drag.
Bill
>
> The basic claim is for a more conventional landing and glide ratio. This reduces
the drop that results from the high drag of the 701 slats. But while also
giving superior STOL performance. Now for a high angle of attack spot landing
the very reasons for removing the slats give it an advantage on short spot landings.
Message 29
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Do you people ever go to the FAA registry to look for a pilots ratings ?
I do. Each time someone spouts off implying that they actually know or
have us think they are experts, I check them out on the list.
Once on the AvidFlyer website this guy was explaining to everyone how to
build and fly the aircraft. After a year of hearing his B.S. I called
him on it. The guy was about to start his student training and had
never really flown before..
So, here he was telling stories that could have killed someone....
I often wondered how many people fell for his statements.
This same "expert" joined the Jabiru website and tried to have us
believe he knew everything. Heck, even the Jabiru dealers called B.S.
The idiot eventually disappeared..
Today I m reading all of the conversations about V.Gs etc....
I figure if there is 100 people giving information, 30 probably know the
real answers. Thaty leaves 60 that dont really have a clue...
For what its worth. Just be careful listening.....
Stick with proven facts.
SW
Message 30
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Hi Steve,
I too tend to look at the pilot registry at the FAA.
One thing I noticed is the certificate date shown online is not when
the last rating was earned but rather when the actual certificate was
issued. In a case like mine, the replacement certificate issued for
an address change in the last year or two hides the fact that I
earned my Private Pilot certificate 37 years ago.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 12:06 PM 1/23/2008, you wrote:
>Do you people ever go to the FAA registry to look for a pilots ratings ?
>I do. Each time someone spouts off implying that they actually know
>or have us think they are experts
Message 31
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| Subject: | Garmin GTX 320A with Encoder for sale |
Hello I have a Garmin GTX 320A with ACK Encoder for sale
Unit was used for approx 38hrs due to Avionic change for sale asking 680 USD i
will give guarantee it will be ok if not i will take back
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160030#160030
Message 32
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steve wrote:
> Each time someone spouts off implying that they actually know or have
> us think they are experts, I check them out on the list.
I agree completely... :) Have at it with my cheerful support:
Bill Berle PPL #2287853
www.vb.taylorcraft.org forum "VictorBravo"
Sailplane competition Race # VB (1981-88)
IF-1 (Reno) competition Race # 81 (1988-90) Cassutt N2081
Current Owner/Operator: N29544 1940 Taylorcraft BC-65 s/n 2387
Former owner: RV-3 N630CB, Taylorcrafts (3), Auster VJ-1 N47DN, Grumman
AA-1 N57774L, AS-W20 (2), Ventus N13ED (de-registered), Mini-Nimbus N824T
CH701 plans 5981
Message 33
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| Subject: | Aeronautical expertise |
Steve:
It is well to be skeptical, but bear in mind that a person may know a
great deal about a particular aeronautical subject without being a flyer
at all, not that such people will usually turn up on the list here. On
the other hand, the aeronautical knowlege needed to pass the Private
Pilot written exam is pretty minimal, so being a pilot doesn't make one
an expert.
George
Do not archive
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That is a good point to keep in mind when checking the registry. Mine says 2003
issue date because I wanted a plastic card. That leaves out 24 years of PPSEL
and 9 of PPR-H.
Pity it doesn't show your hours at last issue or medical.
psm(at)ATT.NET wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> I too tend to look at the pilot registry at the FAA.
>
> One thing I noticed is the certificate date shown online is not when the last
rating was earned but rather when the actual certificate was issued. In a case
like mine, the replacement certificate issued for an address change in the
last year or two hides the fact that I earned my Private Pilot certificate 37
years ago.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160045#160045
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Please, please, please. Let's not go down this road, fellows. Let's just
decide to admit that we're all wonderful and talented.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Advise
>
> steve wrote:
>> Each time someone spouts off implying that they actually know or have us
>> think they are experts, I check them out on the list.
> I agree completely... :) Have at it with my cheerful support:
>
> Bill Berle PPL #2287853
> www.vb.taylorcraft.org forum "VictorBravo"
>
> Sailplane competition Race # VB (1981-88)
> IF-1 (Reno) competition Race # 81 (1988-90) Cassutt N2081
> Current Owner/Operator: N29544 1940 Taylorcraft BC-65 s/n 2387
> Former owner: RV-3 N630CB, Taylorcrafts (3), Auster VJ-1 N47DN, Grumman
> AA-1 N57774L, AS-W20 (2), Ventus N13ED (de-registered), Mini-Nimbus N824T
> CH701 plans 5981
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Holding the nose wheel off at landing |
Unless the RW is real short make all landings soft field.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160049#160049
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Hmmm...lots of theory and heavy thinking on vg's going on here lately.
Not being one to get TOO deep into the theory I can offer this: I am one
of the renegades who removed the slats In favor of the vg's and believe
me I will never go back. The improvement in flying qualities alone(much
more stable and predictable at low speed/safer) made the change worth it
not to mention a much more efficient airplane(pull the power back, go
the same speed on less gas) with no real world loss in STOL capability.
As to the lessened drag for approach angle-all one has to do is slip the
thing and that slab side will bring it out of the sky like a freight
train. And all the verbiage about increased load on the wing at stall
is, from a practical standpoint, just a bunch of crap...don't forget
this thing is supposedly stressed for 6 G. I can't imagine ever being
able to get anything like that much gustload on it at any speed anywhere
near a one G stall-it would turn itself inside out. Similiar situation
for maneuvering speed...it's kinda like, so what?-that is, assuming the
pilot is competent enough to not be hauling ass and snatching the stick
around in heavy gusts. (Doubtful in some cases, admittedly) Furthermore,
I can't measure any reduction on one G stall speed on mine...that, if at
all present, is minute and of no consequence and merely incidential to
the real benefit of vastly improved low speed flying qualities and
increased efficiency with no real world loss/gain of STOL capability.
I have spent a lifetime in the air in everything from absolute junk to
widebodies and feel fairly well qualified to evaluate the merits of a
such a straight forward change as slats/vg/701. I spent some 40 hours at
flight test slats vs. vg's and when it was all down on paper the
decision to cut the slat brackets off was easy. It was the right thing
to do for me.(I did find that vg placement was critical) For those with
doubts I would offer that it isn't the right thing for you so don't do
it. I'm not selling anything here and don't care what you do with your
money.
This list has some highly experienced/well qualified folks on it and I
highly respect your qualifications...but I do wonder if any of the
recent naysayer posters have a shred of experience with 701/slat/vgs. As
is so often the case on this list, I suspect the ones yelling the
loudest have the least first hand experience with what it is they are
talking about, much less some 40 hours objective flight test. I
personally don't know of anybody who went vg's going back to slats on
the 701. They generally are the real world types and have little
interest in neverending talk/handwringing about theory that has very
little if any real practical application when dealing with the 701.
I feel sure the theorists will have something to say about this...but
that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Joe
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Paul
You touched on what has become a pet peeve for me. I've had my certificate
for forty years but my plastic certificate says 2003. Maybe its just my ego
but I think the date of original issue should be shown.
Carroll Jernigan
do not archive
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 39
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Joe, First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to explain you
r results. I am the builder and test pilot of an 801. My take on this is
the 701 / 801 has a very similar wing and with that a similar leading e
dge. The slat profile is ALOT different then the blunt nose of the wing.
By removing the slats doesn't that create a completely different airfoi
l? Don't get me wrong, I am looking for some additional speed in my "be
ast" and I can attest to the fact that a ton of horsepower doesn't do i
t. My opinion is that the 801 hits a wall around 105-110 mph and it is l
ike dragging a parachute to get through that wall. I guess my question i
s,,,before I glue and / or rivet alot of VG's on my toy has anyone flow
n a 701 /801 without slats and VG's. ? I would hate to make my plane ug
lier and then have to fill/ repaint the spots where the VG's were. All f
eedback is welcome.... Thanks in advance.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Joe Spencer" <jpspencer@cableone.net> wrote:
Hmmm...lots of theory and heavy thinking on vg's going on here lately. N
ot being one to get TOO deep into the theory I can offer this: I am one
of the renegades who removed the slats In favor of the vg's and believe
me I will never go back. The improvement in flying qualities alone(much
more stable and predictable at low speed/safer) made the change worth it
not to mention a much more efficient airplane(pull the power back, go t
he same speed on less gas) with no real world loss in STOL capability. A
s to the lessened drag for approach angle-all one has to do is slip the
thing and that slab side will bring it out of the sky like a freight tra
in. And all the verbiage about increased load on the wing at stall is, f
rom a practical standpoint, just a bunch of crap...don't forget this thi
ng is supposedly stressed for 6 G. I can't imagine ever being able to ge
t anything like that much gustload on it at any speed anywhere near a on
e G stall-it would turn itself inside out. Similiar situation for maneuv
ering speed...it's kinda like, so what?-that is, assuming the pilot is c
ompetent enough to not be hauling ass and snatching the stick around in
heavy gusts. (Doubtful in some cases, admittedly) Furthermore, I can't m
easure any reduction on one G stall speed on mine...that, if at all pres
ent, is minute and of no consequence and merely incidential to the real
benefit of vastly improved low speed flying qualities and increased effi
ciency with no real world loss/gain of STOL capability. I have spent a l
ifetime in the air in everything from absolute junk to widebodies and fe
el fairly well qualified to evaluate the merits of a such a straight for
ward change as slats/vg/701. I spent some 40 hours at flight test slats
vs. vg's and when it was all down on paper the decision to cut the slat
brackets off was easy. It was the right thing to do for me.(I did find t
hat vg placement was critical) For those with doubts I would offer that
it isn't the right thing for you so don't do it. I'm not selling anythin
g here and don't care what you do with your money.This list has some hig
hly experienced/well qualified folks on it and I highly respect your qua
lifications...but I do wonder if any of the recent naysayer posters have
a shred of experience with 701/slat/vgs. As is so often the case on thi
s list, I suspect the ones yelling the loudest have the least first hand
experience with what it is they are talking about, much less some 40 ho
urs objective flight test. I personally don't know of anybody who went v
g's going back to slats on the 701. They generally are the real world ty
pes and have little interest in neverending talk/handwringing about theo
ry that has very little if any real practical application when dealing w
ith the 701. I feel sure the theorists will have something to say about
========================
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=====================
_____________________________________________________________
Become a pharmacy assistant. Click here to start your career now.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vg0H2RlkATLpJ0Uvqj
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Message 40
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We are speaking of a 701.
Here is what Mr Heintz says:
"From a design standpoint, I have no objection to the removal of the leading edge
slats (and their attachment brackets) and replacing them with VGs," Now he
goes on to say that the STOL ability will diminish. But he is speaking about a
standard wing span. A mod that he has been known to allow.
Thank you for your opinion.
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
> Putting VG's on is a LOT LESS likely to do harm, than just arbitrarily
> removing the slats!
>
> The "failure mode" of adding VG's onto the wrong wing (like a Lancair
> leading edge for example) is that you make a bunch more drag and turn a
> laminar low drag airfoil into a higher drag turbulent airfoil. But you
> don't get a major change in the flight handling or the behavior of the wing.
>
> The "failure mode" of removing the slats is that you have effectively
> put a whole different airfoil on the airplane, which will then have
> entirely different pitching moments (twisting force), entirely different
> flow and pressure patterns across control surfaces, etc. This is a LOT
> more risky and requires a LOT more engineering than simply forcing an
> early transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow.
>
> The people who removed the slats managed to side-step this problem
> because they put the VG's on after the slats were removed, AND neither
> the slat or no-slat airfoil of the 701 was a critical laminar wing. But
> if you read carefully you will see several warnings to NOT remove the
> slats and fly without VG's.
>
> Try removing the slats on a more critical wing (F-86) and you will see
> some very unsafe side-effects!
>
> If you really want that extra drag reduction and STOL capability, you
> have to go with the retractable slats, and if you do that you MUST make
> them MANUALLY retractable slats. None of this "airflow-operated slat"
> stuff without you having access to a wind tunnel and a big checkbook!
> You need a bin Johnson Bar lever in the cockpit with a strong detent
> latch. When you pull the lever the slats open and stay open. After you
> have levitated out of the tennis court and have established a positive
> rate of climb at about 50 MPH then you close the slats and enjoy the
> deag reduction, rate of climb, fuel efficiency, trans-sonic cruise, etc.
>
> Sorry to appear a little too authoritative on this subject, but it
> appears that there are children playing with matches here without the
> background to do so. I ain't an engineer either but in aviation I do
> know where amateur knowledge ends and professional knowledge has to take
> over.
>
>
> >
> >
> > INAAE (I'm not an aeronautical engineer) but I think replacing slats
> > with VG's is probably a lot safer than adding VGs to an airfoil that
> > wasn't designed to have either.
> >
> >
>
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160062#160062
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I agree 100%.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trainnut01@aol.com wrote:
PaulYou touched on what has become a pet peeve for me. I've had my certi
ficate for forty years but my plastic certificate says 2003. Maybe its j
ust my ego but I think the date of original issue should be shown.Carrol
l Jernigan do not archive
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
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========================
===
_____________________________________________________________
Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now!
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B3VEbBSBWxRwYgloiknvKtnlCHOSu/
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took delivery of about
3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation manual from William
Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and haven't received it yet.
Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a phone number on his website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else had any issues with
this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Holding Nose up |
e., nose up upon landing). Thanks Paul, Stan, Tony, and all who
responded. I think I can build a better airplane now, and, stabilizer VG
s
will be part of it. I think I'll head for the shop and see if it has war
med
up from this morning's low of 34=B0.
Terry
Count your blessings, it was close to { - 34 f } here this week in the "
hole". That would be 68 degrees colder.... Geez. This global warming thi
ng might be slightly exagerated . :<)
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
>is
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Great pay, great benefits, rewarding. Click for information on a health
care career.
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XVWE7eaiO3lo0rwSPdeS2JorLkq5k/
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Thanks for the comments Joe,
I believe that you are correct in the case of who yells the loudest. It is also
a shame that more people don't speak up, who have done this.
Ben read the linked article form Mr Heintz
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160068#160068
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| Subject: | The virtues of a flying slow....and landing slower.... |
Story of engine trouble with a good ending. Well safe, he still has to get it out
of the field.
http://www.ascensioncitizen.com/articles/2008/01/23/news/news04.txt
--------
601 XL kit
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160074#160074
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JOE, And to think that you have accused me, FACE TO FACE I might
add, of being able (and willing) to stir this pot at will, I hereby
turn over my stick to the new leader. And who would have thought such a
mild mannered dude from upper Mississippi as yourself would have risen
to such heights.!!! Come visit!
LO&SLO John Bolding
do not archive, please
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Spencer
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: VG's
This list has some highly experienced/well qualified folks on it and I
highly respect your qualifications...but I do wonder if any of the
recent naysayer posters have a shred of experience with 701/slat/vgs. As
is so often the case on this list, I suspect the ones yelling the
loudest have the least first hand experience with what it is they are
talking about, much less some 40 hours objective flight test. I
personally don't know of anybody who went vg's going back to slats on
the 701. They generally are the real world types and have little
interest in neverending talk/handwringing about theory that has very
little if any real practical application when dealing with the 701.
I feel sure the theorists will have something to say about this...but
that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Joe
Message 47
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
You might also ask your question on the Corvaircraft e-mail list :
http://mylist.net/listinfo/corvaircraft. Some members of that list interact
with William weekly and may have a better idea what is up.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Pagan
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:00 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took delivery of
about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation manual from
William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and haven't received it
yet. Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a phone number on his
website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else had any
issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
_____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
Bill-
904-529-0006 or 386-451-3676. Hope you don't wear out your redial
button.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Pagan
To: Zenith List
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took
delivery of about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation manual
from William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and haven't
received it yet. Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a phone
number on his website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else had any
issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Message 49
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Thanks Kevin for the link... I did read the article from Chris and it is
about what I thought he would say. I will keep my slats on and take the
"slight" reduction in speed in trade for the excellent STOL traits of
my 801. The next test I will probably try is to get some wide helicopter
tape and seal up the gap between the slats and the top and botom of the
wing, esentially making it a wider chord without the air leaking throu
gh the slot and still maintaining the sleeker leading edge provided by t
he slats. I will post results after the test. If ya don't hear back from
me it didn't work right. :<).
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net> wrote:
Thanks for the comments Joe,
I believe that you are correct in the case of who yells the loudest. It
is also a shame that more people don't speak up, who have done this.
Ben read the linked article form Mr Heintz
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160068#160068
========================
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_____________________________________________________________
Click to begin your health care training online. Request info today.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vEFPQHq2blualXjjO1
jyFbzdYwXFdrHPD3MlsKen0Arn3KK/
Message 50
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hi guys
i am getting close to completing the airframe of my XL
and remember some discussions on closing the front
lower rudder area. i mean the open space that is
below the front leading edge of the rudder. i
enclosed mine so that the air flow will not get into
the rudder. I seem to remember that some of you folks
thought that it was designed to be open to help the
rudder move left and right.
is it a problem to enclose that area from the wind
stream?
best regards
john butterfield
601xl corvair,
torrance, ca
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 51
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Hi John,
I filled the rudder overhang with a bulkhead that flushed the surface
and only left 5mm clearance with the saddle.
Cannot say it did more than look a lot better, but if I'd flown it there
probably would have been drag in the left or right extreme
positions. It probably would have made a lot of unnecessary wind noise
too. My advice is do whatever helps fairing in the plane
and avoids drag. Do it all as the plane is positively slippery and more
responsive if it's done right.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
john butterfield wrote:
>
> hi guys
> i am getting close to completing the airframe of my XL
> and remember some discussions on closing the front
> lower rudder area. i mean the open space that is
> below the front leading edge of the rudder. i
> enclosed mine so that the air flow will not get into
> the rudder. I seem to remember that some of you folks
> thought that it was designed to be open to help the
> rudder move left and right.
>
> is it a problem to enclose that area from the wind
> stream?
> best regards
> john butterfield
> 601xl corvair,
> torrance, ca
>
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Holding Nose up |
Hi Ben
I count my blessings every time I look out across the Bitterroot Valley. It
is incredible right now, with the sun just down behind the mountains.
Temperature-wise, the 34 was inside the shop. It was a bit below zero
outside this morning, I think. But even then, I'm not complaining. I grew
up in Laramie, and everywhere seems warm compared to there. It's the
Wyoming wind that's the killer.
Terry
do not archive
At 10:57 PM 1/23/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>e., nose up upon landing). Thanks Paul, Stan, Tony, and all who
>responded. I think I can build a better airplane now, and, stabilizer VGs
>will be part of it. I think I'll head for the shop and see if it has warmed
>up from this morning's low of 34.
>
>Terry
>
>Count your blessings, it was close to { - 34 f } here this week in the
>"hole". That would be 68 degrees colder.... Geez. This global warming
>thing might be slightly exagerated . :<)
>
>do not archive
>
>
>Ben Haas
>N801BH
>www.haaspowerair.com
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 53
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
Bill
I ordered the conversion Manual on 1-09-08 but sent the signed waiver a
couple of days later, but still haven't gotten the manual.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill-
904-529-0006 or 386-451-3676. Hope you don't wear out your redial
button.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Pagan <mailto:pdn8r@yahoo.com>
To: Zenith List <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took
delivery of about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation
manual from William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and
haven't received it yet. Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a
phone number on his website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else
had any issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
Randall-
Join the club. Great engine, but all you can do is wait on WW. If
you're in a hurry go with an O-235. I often wonder if that's the way I
should have gone.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randall J. Hebert
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill
I ordered the conversion Manual on 1-09-08 but sent the signed waiver
a couple of days later, but still haven't gotten the manual.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:37 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill-
904-529-0006 or 386-451-3676. Hope you don't wear out your redial
button.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Pagan
To: Zenith List
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took
delivery of about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation manual
from William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and haven't
received it yet. Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a phone
number on his website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else had
any issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Be a better friend, newshound, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
I have given up on the Corvair and I am going with another engine. I have
emailed 17 times with no response to any of them. I attended his class in
Cloverdale, California Oct. 2006, which we had to pay to attend. His response
then was to respond to emails faster. Well, at least I got a free hat out of
it. Dealing with Tom Henderson is about the same. At least I am local and
can take him to court!
Larry Husky
??????????
In a message dated 1/23/2008 5:08:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
naumuk@alltel.net writes:
Randall-
Join the club. Great engine, but all you can do is wait on WW. If you're
in a hurry go with an O-235. I often wonder if that's the way I should have
gone.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: _Randall J. Hebert_ (mailto:randy@rjhebertassoc.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill
I ordered the conversion Manual on 1-09-08 but sent the signed waiver a
couple of days later, but still haven't gotten the manual.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
____________________________________
From: _owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill-
904-529-0006 or 386-451-3676. Hope you don't wear out your redial button.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: _Bill Pagan_ (mailto:pdn8r@yahoo.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK I took delivery of
about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601 installation manual from
William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3 weeks ago and haven't received it
yet. Got no response to 2 emails and can't find a phone number on his
website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has anybody else had any
issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
____________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 56
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
Bill
I am currently studying (reading up on) the VW and the Corvair. I
understand the Corvair may be a little much for the 701 ???
My biggest decision maker now is $$$
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Randall-
Join the club. Great engine, but all you can do is wait on WW. If
you're in a hurry go with an O-235. I often wonder if that's the way I
should have gone.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randall J. Hebert <mailto:randy@rjhebertassoc.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill
I ordered the conversion Manual on 1-09-08 but sent the signed
waiver a couple of days later, but still haven't gotten the manual.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:37 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Bill-
904-529-0006 or 386-451-3676. Hope you don't wear out your
redial button.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Pagan <mailto:pdn8r@yahoo.com>
To: Zenith List <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question
Hello All,
Been lurking on the list for some time. Building 601QBK
I took delivery of about 3 weeks ago.
I ordered the Corvair Conversion Manual and 601
installation manual from William Wynn (paid through paypal) about 3
weeks ago and haven't received it yet. Got no response to 2 emails and
can't find a phone number on his website.
Doesn't seem like a great way to do business. Has
anybody else had any issues with this? Can anybody give me a phone
number for him?
Thanks
Bill
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
Hi Bill,
I too ordered a rebuild manual and installation manual for the 601. I ordered
mine of Jan 6th and I mailed the release out to him that same day. I too wrote
them one email and as of yet, no manuals or any response. Grace did write
this before they left and this IS on their website:
"Due to a late start, we will be extending our break from answering the phone
or e-mail through Jan. 8, 2008. In the meantime, in the spirit of my New Year's
Resolution to celebrate Christmas every day, I will soon be sending out all
Baffle Kits and every Cowling Kit we have. I waited until after the Holiday Mailing
Season to post these because they are precision bent expensive parts that
certainly didn't need to be unbent in the Christmas Crush. We shipped out a
few more engines before Christmas, and a few more will also be going out shortly
for arrival in plenty of time for Spring Break (again, apologies for the delays).
I mailed several Distributors Dec. 31, 2007, including one to our Spanish
Piet builder Jorge, plus 601 Intakes and Exhausts. All DVDs will go out next
week as well. The majority of other items please consider Class "B" till the
eighth."
Now I did also notice that they were planning to go to Sebring for the LSA Expo
during Jan, 17th to 20th 2008. It DOES take time to finish their business
there, pack up and drive back home. I'm not making any excuses for them, but
I DO know how it is when you are traveling...and trying to conduct business along
the way (to anyone that will listen to you about your product)
Here is the clincher for me. I saw where a gentleman on here was advertising
his NEW Corvair engine and trying to sell it (has ZERO runtime hours). He said
the only two things he was missing was the dual distributor and the intake
manifold. He told me he has had both of these items on order now for a full YEAR
and is tired of waiting on them - he wants to go flying he said. I can totally
understand that. I TOO am starting to wonder if I SHOULD or SHOULDN'T take
the time to do this Corvair conversion, ESPECIALLY if I can't get any support
for it. You are absolutely right, this is NOT a way to do business. I am
giving the Wynnes a chance to get back home, get settled and take care of some
of their open ends they had before they left. I will try sending them another
email and give them a call in a week or so. If anyone DOES get a response out
of them, would you please keep us all informed so we know they are available
again?
Thanks
Larry H
---------------------------------
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: VG's and the generosity of people on this list. |
Hi,
Thanks to each and everyone of you that took the time to reply to my
question concerning VG's. Every one went into my "saved " file.
Knowledge is power
Sharing knowledge is the ultimate power
Joe Motis
Do not archive
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 59
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
Thanks Craig for the information. I did just as you suggested. I went over to
the website and asked if anyone knows if/when the Wynnes might be available.
If I hear anything back, I will forward it to everyone on this website that is
interested.
Regards,
Larry H
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Part Stoutness |
I did put them on each end. Didn't see a need for the middle. One piece of
the "X" was solid and the other was bridged over the first. That's the kind
of tape that you better have it where you want it when you stick it, cause
you ain't gonna move it without tearing up something. I also used a "acid
wash" first. You have to buy the good stuff at a real auto parts that
handles paint and body repair stuff, don't get it at Wal-Mart. As far as
lasting, I've had to remove trim off cars 20+ years old and had one heck of
a time doing it. You usually have to razor blade it off. LRM, skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness
>
> The double stick tape is a good idea, however it might be wise to put
> three rivets in... one on each end and one in the middle... to prevent the
> TINY vibrations from ever loosening the tape. Yeah, the airplane will have
> a million and three rivets instead of just a million :)
>
> LRM wrote:
>> That be me. I used automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand. You can
>> find it at NAPA. LRM www.skyhawg.com <http://www.skyhawg.com>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Terry Turnquist <mailto:ter_turn@yahoo.com>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:01 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Part Stoutness
>>
>> I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L"
>> angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without
>> creating extra rivet lines.
>>
>
>
> --
> 269.19.9/1239 - Release Date: 1/23/2008 10:24 AM
>
>
Message 61
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|
I know where there are two Corvairs complete with engines I can get for
almost nothing. Can someone tell me what models are best or what I need
to look for? I have zero idea. You never know I might decide to build
a "SkyVair".
LRM, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 62
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|
| Subject: | lenght and pitch |
I need the for calculating the length and pitch I need for a two blade
prop. Make it simple please, I only got ten toes.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 63
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| Subject: | Intro and William Wynn Question |
I just received this message from the CorvAircraft Group. Here is what Pat has
said:
Larry,
I received a note from William and Grace the other day.
Here's the relevant part, edited.
I hope this helps.
Pat
"I sold our 601 and have applied the capitol to inventory. This should go a
long way to alleviating delays in orders. We sold the airframe and the
engine separately, but the total was over xxx, This has allowed me to pay
in advance for lots of stuff like 20 601 mounts, a giant round of gold hubs
and a lot of new gold oil parts."
As for me, I am thinking that the Wynnes have run out of working capital and aren't
able to support the inventory required to fullfill all our orders for parts.
I DID read over on the other sight that one gentleman has had his stainless
steel intake on order since 2006. 2006????
I guess we all have to make up our own minds as to what our priorities are.
To each his own I guess.
I am sending a copy of this to Mr Wynne's email address so he will be well aware
of the questions going on. Maybe he will respond personally to the questions
being asked and what is being said. I hope he responds.
Regards,
Larry H
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
Hey Larry,
Spent all day at Sebring (I'm in Florida) on Friday and didn't see them there.
Weren't on the exhibitor list either.
Larry H <skyridersbn@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Bill,
I too ordered a rebuild manual and installation manual for the 601. I ordered
mine of Jan 6th and I mailed the release out to him that same day. I too wrote
them one email and as of yet, no manuals or any response. Grace did write
this before they left and this IS on their website:
"Due to a late start, we will be extending our break from answering the phone
or e-mail through Jan. 8, 2008. In the meantime, in the spirit of my New Year's
Resolution to celebrate Christmas every day, I will soon be sending out all
Baffle Kits and every Cowling Kit we have. I waited until after the Holiday Mailing
Season to post these because they are precision bent expensive parts that
certainly didn't need to be unbent in the Christmas Crush. We shipped out a
few more engines before Christmas, and a few more will also be going out shortly
for arrival in plenty of time for Spring Break (again, apologies for the
delays). I mailed several Distributors Dec. 31, 2007, including one to our Spanish
Piet builder Jorge, plus 601 Intakes and Exhausts. All DVDs will go out next
week as well. The majority of other items please consider Class "B" till the
eighth."
Now I did also notice that they were planning to go to Sebring for the LSA Expo
during Jan, 17th to 20th 2008. It DOES take time to finish their business
there, pack up and drive back home. I'm not making any excuses for them, but
I DO know how it is when you are traveling...and trying to conduct business along
the way (to anyone that will listen to you about your product)
Here is the clincher for me. I saw where a gentleman on here was advertising
his NEW Corvair engine and trying to sell it (has ZERO runtime hours). He said
the only two things he was missing was the dual distributor and the intake
manifold. He told me he has had both of these items on order now for a full YEAR
and is tired of waiting on them - he wants to go flying he said. I can totally
understand that. I TOO am starting to wonder if I SHOULD or SHOULDN'T take
the time to do this Corvair conversion, ESPECIALLY if I can't get any support
for it. You are absolutely right, this is NOT a way to do business. I am
giving the Wynnes a chance to get back home, get settled and take care of some
of their open ends they had before they left. I will try sending them another
email and give them a call in a week or so. If anyone DOES get a response
out of them, would you please keep us all informed so we know they are available
again?
Thanks
Larry H
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
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| Subject: | length and pitch |
Larry
The culver prop website has a prop pitch calculator on it.
Joe
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| Subject: | Re: Intro and William Wynn Question |
Well Bill, I took the information directly off of their website in the "hanger section" : http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html
If you read what Grace wrote, you will find everything is written exactly as
I posted it.
I'm like you. I don't know what to think now. I DID copy WW on one of my posts
and if they read their email, they will be made well aware that people are
wondering what in the world is going on....I will NOT start a project that I
can't get parts for to complete it.....plain and simple fact of it all. I won't
put myself through this type of unnecessary aggravation.
Regards
Larry
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