---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/26/08: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:13 AM - Re: Cabin airfoil (stepinwolf) 2. 03:55 AM - dual brake line fittings. (chris Sinfield) 3. 04:26 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Edward Moody II) 4. 04:46 AM - Re: Any builders/flyers in the State College PA area (JURU8878) 5. 04:52 AM - Re: Cabin airfoil (kmccune) 6. 05:07 AM - Re: dual brake line fittings. (burbby) 7. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Dave G.) 8. 06:29 AM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (my post , read or delete) (Jaybannist@cs.com) 9. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Jaybannist@cs.com) 10. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (MacDonald Doug) 11. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (steve) 12. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (steve) 13. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (LRM) 14. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 15. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 08:36 AM - William Wynne (Gary Thomas) 17. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (MacDonald Doug) 18. 09:13 AM - Re: Cabin airfoil (Jim McBurney) 19. 11:14 AM - Re: Cabin airfoil (kmccune) 20. 12:16 PM - Re: dual brake line fittings. (chris Sinfield) 21. 12:36 PM - Re: Cabin airfoil (ronlee) 22. 01:18 PM - Re: William Wynne (kmccune) 23. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Bill Berle) 24. 01:45 PM - 601XL Wingtips for Sale (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 25. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Bill Berle) 26. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Bill Berle) 27. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Any builders/flyers in the State College PA area (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 28. 02:11 PM - Re: Taildragger or not (dalemed) 29. 02:51 PM - Re: 601XL Wingtips for Sale (William Dominguez) 30. 02:55 PM - Fw: Re: 601XL Wingtips for Sale (William Dominguez) 31. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: dual brake line fittings. () 32. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Bryan Martin) 33. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: dual brake line fittings. (Craig Payne) 34. 06:19 PM - Rotary engines for all Zenith Aircraft (Jerry Hey) 35. 06:19 PM - origin of lift [was Re: Cabin airfoil] (Peter Chapman) 36. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: Cabin airfoil (Don_Lewis) 37. 07:51 PM - Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency (JohnDRead@aol.com) 38. 08:21 PM - Re: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency (jetboy) 39. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency (JohnDRead@aol.com) 40. 09:02 PM - Re: Intro and William Wynn Question (my post , read or delete) (Gary Gower) 41. 11:46 PM - Re: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency (John Marzulli) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil From: "stepinwolf" Kevin, thanks for your input. I am in no way an engineer, but I always thought that lift was created by the low pressure area on top of the wing. If we look at most of the light aircraft on the market today, they all seem to have an airfoil over the top of cabin area, so I'm guessing it has to be a factor in the overall performance of the wing. Bob -------- Live each day, as if it was your last Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160539#160539 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: dual brake line fittings. From: "chris Sinfield" Gang its late so please help me out.. 1. On the Duel brake kit for my XL there are 2 X 90 Deg brass brake line fittings. F469-4A. Where do these go and why 90 Deg?? it looks to me as if they would still work with the normal straight ones ,so why the 90 Deg? Any one got a picture of the Dual Brake piping? 2. there is also 2 Tee fittings out of the fuel system F964-6 that I cannot find a home for.. Chris. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160540#160540 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:25 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil You are partially correct. The rest of the story is the realtively higher airpressure under the corresponding undersurface of the plane (the fuselage in this discussion). The differential produces your lift. Both the shape of the airfoil and the AOA are factors in producing lift. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: stepinwolf To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 5:10 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Kevin, thanks for your input. I am in no way an engineer, but I always thought that lift was created by the low pressure area on top of the wing. If we look at most of the light aircraft on the market today, they all seem to have an airfoil over the top of cabin area, so I'm guessing it has to be a factor in the overall performance of the wing. Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Any builders/flyers in the State College PA area From: "JURU8878" Keith, I grew up right over the mountain from State College in Lewistown area. My cousin has a little grass strip (Wagner, identifier 1PA4) there. I know there is a guy flying a 701 in the Belleville area somehwere, I believe his last name is Byler, can't remember his first though. might want to try the FAA to possible find out. v/r, Jud Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160543#160543 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil From: "kmccune" This is my thought too. The shorter path underneath is just as important as the top shape. You may get lift right as the sides of the cabin were the standard wing tapers down. And it would seem to reduce drag. But you would lose the prop wash on the rear at low speeds. Though the Savannah seems to do just fine with this section over the roof. My guess is that it just looks nice this way. Early high wing airplanes were all open so there was lift in this area. When they put the cabin on, they simply set the wing on top of it. ( total conjecture on my part by the way :_) ) Some designs also have a tube running the full span acting as the main spar. This kind of forces the shape over the cabin. There may still be lift there, but I like I said I have no idea how it would work. -------- Kevin N701DZ Reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160544#160544 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:49 AM PST US From: burbby Subject: Re: Zenith-List: dual brake line fittings. Chris: I think you will find your answer on this website. The page is not real clear but I printed the page and it was a good readable diagram. http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder21a.jpg HYD Schematic MC-5 and MC-4 Hope this is what you need. Thanks Gary N7601 (resereved Millsap, Tx --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:56 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil This explains a lot about wings, and airfoils. It appears to be a complex subject. http://www.regenpress.com/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:12 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question (my post , read or delete) Gary, ?Como estas? You are absolutely right. William Wynne is still in business because he sells inexpensive, excellent, tested products. He is NOT a businessman. This is a hobby for him that just happens to produce some income. His passion is performing as the Corvair guru at his Corvair Colleges, which produces no income. My only problem with William is that he will promise a delivery date of a product, knowing full well that he can't keep that promise. I have had him promise delivery five or six times, over a period of seven to nine months, before finally delivering. If he would just be honest about when he can actually deliver a product, all the controversy would go away, immediately. Buenos dias - Jay in Dallas Gary Gower wrote: >Hello Friends. > This tread has been in the list for years... And W W keeps making parts for such a great engine. at its own pace, like the battery rabbit. > I was not going to post about this, but could not resist :-) Probably I am completly wrong but I feel this way. > > Personal note to clarify my position: > In our present case we are not using the WW Corvair conversion in our 601XL, reason is that we were building our kit, with no engine decision yet (as most of the list remember, from my posts). A couple of months ago, when we were building, a local pilot came to our shop to see how a Zenith kit was built (he was one point short to order a kit itself). > He got in love with the plane and bought our project on the spot, with the condition that we will finish the plane for him... He chossed the Jab 3300 as a powerplant (great engine in fact)... > > Now back to WW. > I have been in Ultralight- Homebuilding since 1982, lots of companies (with good faith all, or most of them) have open and closed their doors in the auto engine conversion dream. > We all dream to have the perfect auto conversion: Powerfull, inexpensive, low GPH regular auto fuel, light weight with in reason, off the shelf spare parts, etc. Yes I know, is almost impossible, the ones that still are in business all have something "not perfect" in their engine conversion, but can for sure be flown in a safe way. > > One thing I am sure with WW (I dont have the honor of meet him in person yet) but read about him since his first articles in the magazines (?year). > What I can tell you is that I am sure that all of us (low buck homebuilders) we have in them (WW and TEAM) one of the hand full most honest group of persons in that business. > Their only problem (personal opinion) is that probably they dont charge enough as their product (parts amd knowlege) is worth,,, (Low price engine goal) > There are two sides of having a succesfull company (and lots ways in betwen). > One that makes lots of money, no matter sometimes how and what, and another one that keeps first class quality first of all, even with income sacrifice, > > For this last ones, their word and prestige is more important that money . Also some of this "Self made CEOs" find the BIG problem that they (and team) need to learn to manage a new born business and at the same time continue to develope their good products with low competitive price in mind... Two Very diferent Goals with few personel. > > Now Closing: I only hope that we all have the patience to give them a chance, in the mean time they learn to grow as a succesfull company (as big as they feel confortable). > Is not an easy task in either part (we or them), but at least we, with the size of our wallets, have other more expensive engine options :-) > They dont, they will keep their good, hard, honest work, with us or without us buying. > Now as you say in USA: Off the soap box :-) > > Saludos > Gary Gower > Flying from Chapala, Mexico. > 701 912S, builsing 601XL Jab 3300 > "Important bonus: We also have the luck to build our kits from another Honest Team: The Heintz family" > > >Larry H wrote: > William did respond with another email to me, asking me the person's name that had made these statements to me. I gave William the name. William told me he would personally look into it and resolve this immediately. He said there should be no reason WHY this person would be saying this - if he owes him parts, he will do his best to clear this up. > > William did also say that they have updated their webpage. As for those of us waiting on conversion manuals, William told me they are making a updates to them and would ship them out as soon as they are done. If you also ordered the CH601 installation manual along with the conversion manual, they usually ship them together, so hold tight and wait a bit longer please....they ARE coming soon! > > Larry > >--------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:22 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Kevin, A lot of our list posters seem to have bought into the premise that an airplane flies because of the lift provided by the Bernoulli effect of the upper surface of the wing. In fact, most of the lift is provided by Newton, pushing on the bottom surface of the wing (With enough power, you can fly a barn door). This speaks very loudly about the "expertise" of some of our most prolific posters, right? Jay in Dallas "kmccune" wrote: > >I have heard of others doing this, one I believe to be quite knowledgeable . But I just can not see how you can get any lift from this. There is no bottom of the airfoil. > >-------- >Kevin >N701DZ Reserved > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160531#160531 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:41 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Bob and Kevin, I am by no means an expert in aerodynamics so take this with a grain of salt. Chris Hientz is the master of form follows function. He did the wings on the 701 the way he did for one reason for sure, in a high angle of bank, your visability out the top will be much better because of the thinner wing profile at the root. Additionally, there has been some mention on this group of prop blast to the tail feathers through the opening. I can't comment on that one but it at least makes sense. As a comparison, I checked out a Land Africa (rip off of a rip off of a 701)that a friend of mine was helping to build. It had the airfoil shape over the cabin. While the Land Africa has a really nice three angle instrument panel, the cabin top was kind of ugly in my eyes. I know, beauty is not something that whould be used in the same e-mail as anything about a 701. In all honesty, the change to the cabin looked to me like it was done to simplify construction of the wing roots more than provide additional lift. Lets face it, fitting those wing roots on the 701 looks like a bit of a challenge. I'll see when I get there in a couple of months. As for the amount of lift created by the one sided airfoil, I can explain that a bit. First, this information come from the ground school lectures that I teach to the youth group I work with. It comes from their lesson plans and from the ASA ground school DVD I use as a basis for my lessons. I am sure there are more knowledgable people on this list than me that will fill in the blanks if I am incorrect on my impressions. Lift on an airfoil can be broken down into two main parts. The first part is called (I think) Plate Lift and is the effect of the relative wind hitting the bottom of the wing. Same idea as sticking your hand out the window of a car going down the highway. If I understand my aerodynamics correctly, this part of the lift makes up about 60% if the total lift generated by a wing. The other 40% is made up by the air being accellerated over the top of the wing and creating low pressure ala Bernoulli. So, providing my understanding of aerodynamic principals is accurate, you will not gain much by adding the 4 ft of span to the airfoil shape. Especially if the interference of the rear fuselage has any effect of the efficiency of the airflow over the airfoil shape. The big advantage would be not having to build the tapered wing root. Again, if someone has a better understanding of this than me, feel free to straighten us all out. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada > > > Kevin, thanks for your input. > > I am in no way an engineer, but I always thought > that lift was created by the low pressure area on > top of the wing. If we look at most of the light > aircraft on the market today, they all seem to have > an airfoil over the top of cabin area, so I'm > guessing it has to be a factor in the overall > performance of the wing. > > Bob Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:36 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil I stand correct............ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil > > Kevin, > > A lot of our list posters seem to have bought into the premise that an > airplane flies because of the lift provided by the Bernoulli effect of the > upper surface of the wing. In fact, most of the lift is provided by > Newton, pushing on the bottom surface of the wing (With enough power, you > can fly a barn door). This speaks very loudly about the "expertise" of > some of our most prolific posters, right? > > Jay in Dallas > > > "kmccune" wrote: > >> >>I have heard of others doing this, one I believe to be quite knowledgeable >>. But I just can not see how you can get any lift from this. There is no >>bottom of the airfoil. >> >>-------- >>Kevin >>N701DZ Reserved >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160531#160531 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:28 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Bernoulli ? Ever watch a DC 9 take off? Short wings and carries 137 people PLUS baggage..... There is a lot of Bernoulli happening........Not! ----- Original Message ----- From: "MacDonald Doug" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil > > Bob and Kevin, I am by no means an expert in > aerodynamics so take this with a grain of salt. > > Chris Hientz is the master of form follows function. > He did the wings on the 701 the way he did for one > reason for sure, in a high angle of bank, your > visability out the top will be much better because of > the thinner wing profile at the root. Additionally, > there has been some mention on this group of prop > blast to the tail feathers through the opening. I > can't comment on that one but it at least makes sense. > > As a comparison, I checked out a Land Africa (rip off > of a rip off of a 701)that a friend of mine was > helping to build. It had the airfoil shape over the > cabin. While the Land Africa has a really nice three > angle instrument panel, the cabin top was kind of ugly > in my eyes. I know, beauty is not something that > whould be used in the same e-mail as anything about a > 701. In all honesty, the change to the cabin looked > to me like it was done to simplify construction of the > wing roots more than provide additional lift. Lets > face it, fitting those wing roots on the 701 looks > like a bit of a challenge. I'll see when I get there > in a couple of months. > > As for the amount of lift created by the one sided > airfoil, I can explain that a bit. First, this > information come from the ground school lectures that > I teach to the youth group I work with. It comes from > their lesson plans and from the ASA ground school DVD > I use as a basis for my lessons. I am sure there are > more knowledgable people on this list than me that > will fill in the blanks if I am incorrect on my > impressions. > > Lift on an airfoil can be broken down into two main > parts. The first part is called (I think) Plate Lift > and is the effect of the relative wind hitting the > bottom of the wing. Same idea as sticking your hand > out the window of a car going down the highway. If I > understand my aerodynamics correctly, this part of the > lift makes up about 60% if the total lift generated by > a wing. The other 40% is made up by the air being > accellerated over the top of the wing and creating low > pressure ala Bernoulli. > > So, providing my understanding of aerodynamic > principals is accurate, you will not gain much by > adding the 4 ft of span to the airfoil shape. > Especially if the interference of the rear fuselage > has any effect of the efficiency of the airflow over > the airfoil shape. The big advantage would be not > having to build the tapered wing root. > > Again, if someone has a better understanding of this > than me, feel free to straighten us all out. > > Doug MacDonald > CH-701 Scratch Builder > NW Ontario, Canada > > >> >> >> Kevin, thanks for your input. >> >> I am in no way an engineer, but I always thought >> that lift was created by the low pressure area on >> top of the wing. If we look at most of the light >> aircraft on the market today, they all seem to have >> an airfoil over the top of cabin area, so I'm >> guessing it has to be a factor in the overall >> performance of the wing. >> >> Bob > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:52 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil One thing not mentioned is the increased headroom for those who might need or want it. The other is the using of the term "rip off". I remind every one that the 701 is in fact a copy of a multitude of parts used by previously like aircraft, by no means is it an original design. I would never say it's a rip off, it's just smart engineering of proven concepts and parts, as is the Savanna. LRM, skyhawg.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MacDonald Doug" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil > > Bob and Kevin, I am by no means an expert in > aerodynamics so take this with a grain of salt. > > Chris Hientz is the master of form follows function. > He did the wings on the 701 the way he did for one > reason for sure, in a high angle of bank, your > visability out the top will be much better because of > the thinner wing profile at the root. Additionally, > there has been some mention on this group of prop > blast to the tail feathers through the opening. I > can't comment on that one but it at least makes sense. > > As a comparison, I checked out a Land Africa (rip off > of a rip off of a 701)that a friend of mine was > helping to build. It had the airfoil shape over the > cabin. While the Land Africa has a really nice three > angle instrument panel, the cabin top was kind of ugly > in my eyes. I know, beauty is not something that > whould be used in the same e-mail as anything about a > 701. In all honesty, the change to the cabin looked > to me like it was done to simplify construction of the > wing roots more than provide additional lift. Lets > face it, fitting those wing roots on the 701 looks > like a bit of a challenge. I'll see when I get there > in a couple of months. > > As for the amount of lift created by the one sided > airfoil, I can explain that a bit. First, this > information come from the ground school lectures that > I teach to the youth group I work with. It comes from > their lesson plans and from the ASA ground school DVD > I use as a basis for my lessons. I am sure there are > more knowledgable people on this list than me that > will fill in the blanks if I am incorrect on my > impressions. > > Lift on an airfoil can be broken down into two main > parts. The first part is called (I think) Plate Lift > and is the effect of the relative wind hitting the > bottom of the wing. Same idea as sticking your hand > out the window of a car going down the highway. If I > understand my aerodynamics correctly, this part of the > lift makes up about 60% if the total lift generated by > a wing. The other 40% is made up by the air being > accellerated over the top of the wing and creating low > pressure ala Bernoulli. > > So, providing my understanding of aerodynamic > principals is accurate, you will not gain much by > adding the 4 ft of span to the airfoil shape. > Especially if the interference of the rear fuselage > has any effect of the efficiency of the airflow over > the airfoil shape. The big advantage would be not > having to build the tapered wing root. > > Again, if someone has a better understanding of this > than me, feel free to straighten us all out. > > Doug MacDonald > CH-701 Scratch Builder > NW Ontario, Canada > > >> >> >> Kevin, thanks for your input. >> >> I am in no way an engineer, but I always thought >> that lift was created by the low pressure area on >> top of the wing. If we look at most of the light >> aircraft on the market today, they all seem to have >> an airfoil over the top of cabin area, so I'm >> guessing it has to be a factor in the overall >> performance of the wing. >> >> Bob > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > -- > 1/25/2008 11:24 AM > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:35 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil But to get the barn door to fly it must be at an angle to the air flow. Thus the air flow over the door will appear to be an airfoil. Jerry of Ga In a message dated 1/26/2008 9:37:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jaybannist@cs.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com Kevin, A lot of our list posters seem to have bought into the premise that an airplane flies because of the lift provided by the Bernoulli effect of the upper surface of the wing. In fact, most of the lift is provided by Newton, pushing on the bottom surface of the wing (With enough power, you can fly a barn door). This speaks very loudly about the "expertise" of some of our most prolific posters, right? Jay in Dallas "kmccune" wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" > >I have heard of others doing this, one I believe to be quite knowledgeable . But I just can not see how you can get any lift from this. There is no bottom of the airfoil. > >-------- >Kevin >N701DZ Reserved > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160531#160531 > > **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:49 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Also true. For anyone really interested in the lift theory, there is an excellent (and long) item on the subject at www.eskimo.com/~billb/wing/airfoil.html. The true/false session at the end is the most informative. Jay in Dallas Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: >But to get the barn door to fly it must be at an angle to the air flow. Thus >the air flow over the door will appear to be an airfoil. Jerry of Ga > > >In a message dated 1/26/2008 9:37:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >Jaybannist@cs.com writes: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com > >Kevin, > >A lot of our list posters seem to have bought into the premise that an >airplane flies because of the lift provided by the Bernoulli effect of the upper >surface of the wing. In fact, most of the lift is provided by Newton, pushing >on the bottom surface of the wing (With enough power, you can fly a barn >door). This speaks very loudly about the "expertise" of some of our most >prolific posters, right? > >Jay in Dallas > > >"kmccune" wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" >> >>I have heard of others doing this, one I believe to be quite knowledgeable >. But I just can not see how you can get any lift from this. There is no >bottom of the airfoil. >> >>-------- >>Kevin >>N701DZ Reserved >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160531#160531 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. >(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 >48) > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:34 AM PST US From: Gary Thomas Subject: Zenith-List: William Wynne All, This may not be the right forum for this, but I feel compelled to comment on the recent speculation regarding William Wynne and people's expectations for customer service. Clearly we are not dealing with Walmart here - he doesn't have a computerised inventory system using just-in-time algorithms. This is just one man trying to research improvements to the application (and he has made many, including multiple iterations of the oil system), build and outsource components, write educational manuals, answer the phone and provide advice. On top of that he built a 601XL airplane and gave rides in it (I was one lucky recipient when I first moved down to Florida). As this stage of his business (where his products continue to evolve), the occasional hiccup is to be expected. Like many others, I have had to wait for parts. I think the solution is to prepare well ahead of time and work on the engine in parallel with the airframe. There are plenty of head-scratching moments in putting together an engine, and the more time you allow yourself, the less time for anxiety over shipments. I will grant one minor criticism - he is sometimes can't be reached and is reluctant to give bad news about delays; this only adds to the anxiety of those more used to running down to walmart to pick up items at short notice. For the solution, see prior paragraph. The flip side to this is his generosity with time when you do reach him. He is full of encouragement and helpful advice for what after all is a pretty challenging endeavor. Given his obvious pride in driving old trucks, he is not doing this to get rich. So when he sells his plane, I see that less as a sign of problems than as a sign that he intends to get inventories built up to satisfy what appears to be a growing number of customers. Obviously we're all grown-ups and can make our own choices. We're also all smart enough to see through the idle speculation and misinformation to get at the real gems of insight on this forum. My advice - talk to someone who's already done it. Best wishes to all Gary Thomas 601XL / Corvair, 95% done, 95% still to go ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:20 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Okay, for sake of argument, we'll agree to disagree on the relationship between the CH-701 and the Savannah. Third hand knowledge (take it for what it's worth)is that the Savannah boys in Alberta have commented that the Land Africa is a rip off of the Savannah. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch builder NW Ontario, Canada Do not archive --- LRM wrote: > > > One thing not mentioned is the increased headroom > for those who might need > or want it. The other is the using of the term "rip > off". I remind every > one that the 701 is in fact a copy of a multitude of > parts used by > previously like aircraft, by no means is it an > original design. I would > never say it's a rip off, it's just smart > engineering of proven concepts and > parts, as is the Savanna. > > LRM, skyhawg.com. > Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:03 AM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cabin airfoil Hi, all, You would lose some (maybe "a little") control authority from the tailfeathers due to blanking of some of the prop's discharge air. Just a thought. Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA USA ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil From: "kmccune" Its funny , but I am having a hard time figuring out who agrees with whom! :D Do not archive -------- Kevin N701DZ Reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160583#160583 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: dual brake line fittings. From: "chris Sinfield" Thanks, I have that diagram and understand where the lines go, its just that that diagram dose not show where the 2X 90 Deg male connectors go. My guess is that they go at the top of the valves and enable the 2 plastic hoses to be pointed straight back down towards the floor area. anyone got a picture of their duel brake lines? a picture is worth a thousand words they say. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160584#160584 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil From: "ronlee" I can assure you all that the 701 lexan roof is creating lift just as it is. When on the ground the top of the lexan window is very tight to the cross brace. I have to push very hard to create any gap. When in flight I can almost get my fingers between the cross brace and the lexan. What I don't know is if it would create more lift if it was a filled in airfoil conforming to the top of the wing. Because the windshield actually blends into the top lexan, it is in a crude way creating an airfoil. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160587#160587 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: William Wynne From: "kmccune" I just figured that: He wanted more inventory, that the plain was fully depreciated, and that he was going to build another one to put his engine in. And he soon may have to deal with 701 guys too! Pluses all around! -------- Kevin N701DZ Reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160590#160590 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:32 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > In fact, most of the lift is provided by Newton, pushing on the bottom surface of the wing (With enough power, you can fly a barn door). This speaks very loudly about the "expertise" of some of our most prolific posters, right? Louder than you think :) The real expert aerodynamicists out there have explained that the circulation flow pattern around the airfoil, and the amount of air being displaced downward, contributes far more than the Bernoulli effect or the "planing" effect you mention. I am not an expert on the circulation theory but I am aware that all of the real, employed, expert level aerodynamics people 100% believe in it. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:19 PM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Wingtips for Sale Gang: I have an new, unused pair of fiberglass wing tips for the 601XL for sale. (I decided to go with the 1-piece tips.) These are part #6W9-5L and 6W9-5R. They list for $28.10 each on the Zenith web site. I will sell the pair for $30 plus shipping. Scratch building? Change your tip lights? Need a back-up pair? Please contact me off-list, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:40 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Larry, I'd be interested to know what design or designs the 701 is a copy of.Using this logic you could say that the P-51 or the Stealth fighter is an amalgam of previously designed parts. LRM wrote: > I remind every one that the 701 is in fact a copy of a multitude of > parts used by previously like aircraft, by no means is it an original > design. > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:12 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil Now if that ain't Al Sharpton calling Jesse Jackson black... MacDonald Doug wrote: > that the Savannah boys in Alberta have commented that > the Land Africa is a rip off of the Savannah. > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:23 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Any builders/flyers in the State College PA area From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" Thanks for the info Jud, I will see what I can come up with. Thanks again, Keith *************************************************************************** * -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of JURU8878 Sent: Sat 1/26/2008 5:43 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Any builders/flyers in the State College PA area Keith, I grew up right over the mountain from State College in Lewistown area. My cousin has a little grass strip (Wagner, identifier 1PA4) there. I know t here is a guy flying a 701 in the Belleville area somehwere, I believe his last name is Byler, can't remember his first though. might want to try the FAA to possible find out. v/r, Jud Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160543#160543 This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are in tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr essed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporati on. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the pres ence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any viru s transmitted by this e-mail. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taildragger or not From: "dalemed" About 1200 of my 1300 hours are in taildraggers. I've owned a Taylorcraft BC12D, a Cessna 140 and currently a Cessna 170. I've recently started building a 601XL and thought I'd build the nose gear version primarily because I've never owned a trike. I also figured it would be nice to not have to use differential braking in a cross wind. However, I'm starting to have second thoughts. I like the looks of the TD version better (in fact, I like the looks of taildraggers in general). I also like the fact that the plane weighs less and has less drag (but I'd still be limited to 120 kts in the LSA category). Once you get some time built up in a TD, I don't think there's much of a premium for insurance. Can anyone tell me the weight difference between the TD and trike? Dale Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160602#160602 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:59 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wingtips for Sale Hi Andrew, I want them. Please send me payment instructions. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/ "Dr. Andrew Elliott" wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 10px; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Courier New } Gang: I have an new, unused pair of fiberglass wing tips for the 601XL for sale. (I decided to go with the 1-piece tips.) These are part #6W9-5L and 6W9-5R. They list for $28.10 each on the Zenith web site. I will sell the pair for $30 plus shipping. Scratch building? Change your tip lights? Need a back-up pair? Please contact me off-list, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:05 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Fwd: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wingtips for Sale Sorry, I intended to send this message off list. William Dominguez do not archive William Dominguez wrote: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:47:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wingtips for Sale Hi Andrew, I want them. Please send me payment instructions. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/ "Dr. Andrew Elliott" wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 10px; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Courier New } Gang: I have an new, unused pair of fiberglass wing tips for the 601XL for sale. (I decided to go with the 1-piece tips.) These are part #6W9-5L and 6W9-5R. They list for $28.10 each on the Zenith web site. I will sell the pair for $30 plus shipping. Scratch building? Change your tip lights? Need a back-up pair? Please contact me off-list, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:41 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: dual brake line fittings. While we are on this subject anyone have a photo or diagram that shows how to hook up a parking brake . Thanks in advance J. Core 601xl kit Oh ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:05 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil The airfoil segment over the top of the fuselage can't really be considered part of the wing, it is part of the fuselage so the entire fuselage must be considered as the airfoil section at that point. You have, in effect, a very low aspect ratio airfoil at that point and low AR wings tend to have very low L/D ratios. Basically, you may gain some lift by continuing the airfoil shape over the fuselage but you will probably get more extra drag than lift. This will be made worse because you will also be adding more surface area exposed to the airstream and therefore more parasite drag. Then there is the extra weight to consider. You can minimize this by building the segment from aluminum, you might actually be able to reduce weight this way because you won't need the relatively heavy plexiglas for the top of the cabin. You will lose a lot of visibility upward and into a turn though. If you want to retain the visibility though the top of the cabin, you will have to build out of plexiglas. This will require more plexiglas that would otherwise be needed and would add more weight. You would gain several inches of headroom, but do you really need that? On the high-wing Cessnas, they didn't continue the airfoil curve across the top of the fuselage to get more lift. On the Cessnas, the wing is mounted lower on the fuselage such that the top of the wing is even with the top of the cabin, so the shape was continued over the fuselage for ease of construction. If you've ever flown a high wing cessna, you will remember the wings block out a lot of sky to the sides and top of the cabin. You always have to lift the inside wing to check for traffic before banking into a turn. Overall, the only reason I can see for continuing the wing airfoil over the fuselage on the 701 is strictly for looks. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:09 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: dual brake line fittings. Try the Matco site. This should take you to a page of diagrams: http://tinyurl.com/3ycbss If not go to http://www.matcomfg.com/, click on the "Technical Support" button on the left side, and then "Master Cylinder & Park Brake Valve Assembly, Installation & HYD Schematic Drawings" -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of EROC@bright.net Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: dual brake line fittings. While we are on this subject anyone have a photo or diagram that shows how to hook up a parking brake . Thanks in advance J. Core 601xl kit Oh ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:31 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Zenith-List: Rotary engines for all Zenith Aircraft I have not seen mention of the Rotamax engines on this list, probably because they are so new, but they are ideal for our purposes. I have long been a fan of the Mazda Rotary but it is too heavy and too powerful for our use. All that has changed with the Rotamax. Rather than write a long description I refer you to their web site. Jerry http://www.rotaryaircraftengines.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:55 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Zenith-List: origin of lift [was Re: Cabin airfoil] At 09:33 26-01-08, you wrote: >A lot of our list posters seem to have bought into the premise that >an airplane flies because of the lift provided by the Bernoulli >effect of the upper surface of the wing. In fact, most of the lift >is provided by Newton, pushing on the bottom surface of the wing >(With enough power, you can fly a barn door). This speaks very >loudly about the "expertise" of some of our most prolific posters, right? This is a topic that could go on forever and divert attention from actually building Zeniths... but I can't help sticking my nose in. I say there's more pulling up than pushing up. There is no single way to describe lift. The same forces can be described in different terms. Lift does depend on suction pressures on top of the wing and positive pressures underneath (that is, the pressures all around the wing!), and there's a net downward deflection of air through this process - upwards lift from pushing air down. So the Bernoulli stuff explains in detail how the Newton stuff happens overall. If one prefers to talk of circulation, well, a net circulation is also a result of the whole process. Yes one can fly a barn door with enough power. Max lift will be poor (say, halved) and drag will be way way up, and angle of attack will be very high to create the lift. So on the one hand, no one doesn't need a nice rounded airfoil to fly, on the other hand, it sure helps a lot. As for whether there's more pulling on top or pushing on bottom, I'm still in the camp that says the lift on top is the larger contributor in normal circumstances. The inline attachment (if it transmits OK) shows an aerodynamic code's results for a typical light plane airfoil at a typical higher speed flight and lower speed flight -- A NACA 2412 at 4 degrees (smooth line) and 8 degrees (line with boxes) angle of attack relative to the chord line. Pressure distributions are shown. Without getting into too much detail, for each line, the area above the horizontal axis (suction upwards from the top of the wing) is a lot more than the area below the axis (upwards push from the bottom of the wing). So for typical airplane applications, there is a lot more pulling up than pushing up! (Now in the extreme case of a barn door at high angles of attack, there's not much lift off the entirely stalled top surface, and a lot of pressure on the bottom. That's one case where the pushing might become more important than the pulling. Although even then there may be some very useful vortex lift from the edges. But most of us prefer to use rounded airfoils at low angles of attack, that takes advantage of their incredible ability to create a lot of lift off their top surface, without creating a ton of drag at the same time. I personally only go the barn door route when flying a skydiving wingsuit at a L/D ratio of under 2:1. And I still need to deploy a real airfoil wing to survive the landing. ) Emacs! Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:53 PM PST US From: "Don_Lewis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cabin airfoil ~~~~~SNIP~~~~~~~~ If you've ever flown a high wing cessna, you will remember the wings block out a lot of sky to the sides and top of the cabin. You always have to lift the inside wing to check for traffic before banking into a turn. ~~~~ SNIP~~~~~~~~ -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. You never flew a C120/140 ??? ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:41 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency Hello List: Slotted airfoils are interesting VG's seem to be fairly controversial. Now why don't we start a discussion to add winglets to the CH701 wing. As it does on commercial jets it will prevent the lateral flow of air around the wing tip and create more lift. BTW Bernoulli provides about 10% of the lift of and airfoils - Newton does the rest by banging the bottom of the wing into air molecules. The airfoil shape allows passage of the wing through the air with a minimum of drag. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency From: "jetboy" CH 701 already has hoerner wingtips like the 601 which act similar to winglets. ZAC website has the design info. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160636#160636 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:56 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency I know I'm building one. The hoerner tip is not as good as a winglet at stopping the lateral flow. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 1/26/2008 9:22:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jetboy" CH 701 already has hoerner wingtips like the 601 which act similar to winglets. ZAC website has the design info. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160636#160636 **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:30 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Intro and William Wynn Question (my post , read or delete) Hi Jay, Yes, is a very comun problem in most type of (little) business and also in our own lifes, to think (very optimistic) that things can be made in a second... Happens sometimes in my own factory and at home, Remember the last time any of us promised our lady to repair the driping fauset? could take 20 minutes to get the tools and repair it, but was done is about 5 week ends because something got in betwen ;-) One advise given to us by our uncle (when my brother and me were beguining our business in the 80's) was to make a deal at time, if we had 5 clients (prospects), not promising to all that will be done the same day, even if we think that we will loose one of twol if we promised a later programed delivery. We knew that we could loose the 5th client to our competition... But at least the other 4 were serviced in time. The other way, at least 4 promised at the same time will not get their work that same moment. Well, is easy to give advise to others, very dificult to listen and do it our selfs :-) My best wishes to William, Grace and Team, I realy hope to meet them some day, will be a great experience to talk to them in an informal way. Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive. Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Gary, ?Como estas? You are absolutely right. William Wynne is still in business because he sells inexpensive, excellent, tested products. He is NOT a businessman. This is a hobby for him that just happens to produce some income. His passion is performing as the Corvair guru at his Corvair Colleges, which produces no income. My only problem with William is that he will promise a delivery date of a product, knowing full well that he can't keep that promise. I have had him promise delivery five or six times, over a period of seven to nine months, before finally delivering. If he would just be honest about when he can actually deliver a product, all the controversy would go away, immediately. Buenos dias - Jay in Dallas Gary Gower wrote: >Hello Friends. > This tread has been in the list for years... And W W keeps making parts for such a great engine. at its own pace, like the battery rabbit. > I was not going to post about this, but could not resist :-) Probably I am completly wrong but I feel this way. > > Personal note to clarify my position: > In our present case we are not using the WW Corvair conversion in our 601XL, reason is that we were building our kit, with no engine decision yet (as most of the list remember, from my posts). A couple of months ago, when we were building, a local pilot came to our shop to see how a Zenith kit was built (he was one point short to order a kit itself). > He got in love with the plane and bought our project on the spot, with the condition that we will finish the plane for him... He chossed the Jab 3300 as a powerplant (great engine in fact)... > > Now back to WW. > I have been in Ultralight- Homebuilding since 1982, lots of companies (with good faith all, or most of them) have open and closed their doors in the auto engine conversion dream. > We all dream to have the perfect auto conversion: Powerfull, inexpensive, low GPH regular auto fuel, light weight with in reason, off the shelf spare parts, etc. Yes I know, is almost impossible, the ones that still are in business all have something "not perfect" in their engine conversion, but can for sure be flown in a safe way. > > One thing I am sure with WW (I dont have the honor of meet him in person yet) but read about him since his first articles in the magazines (?year). > What I can tell you is that I am sure that all of us (low buck homebuilders) we have in them (WW and TEAM) one of the hand full most honest group of persons in that business. > Their only problem (personal opinion) is that probably they dont charge enough as their product (parts amd knowlege) is worth,,, (Low price engine goal) > There are two sides of having a succesfull company (and lots ways in betwen). > One that makes lots of money, no matter sometimes how and what, and another one that keeps first class quality first of all, even with income sacrifice, > > For this last ones, their word and prestige is more important that money . Also some of this "Self made CEOs" find the BIG problem that they (and team) need to learn to manage a new born business and at the same time continue to develope their good products with low competitive price in mind... Two Very diferent Goals with few personel. > > Now Closing: I only hope that we all have the patience to give them a chance, in the mean time they learn to grow as a succesfull company (as big as they feel confortable). > Is not an easy task in either part (we or them), but at least we, with the size of our wallets, have other more expensive engine options :-) > They dont, they will keep their good, hard, honest work, with us or without us buying. > Now as you say in USA: Off the soap box :-) > > Saludos > Gary Gower > Flying from Chapala, Mexico. > 701 912S, builsing 601XL Jab 3300 > "Important bonus: We also have the luck to build our kits from another Honest Team: The Heintz family" > > >Larry H wrote: > William did respond with another email to me, asking me the person's name that had made these statements to me. I gave William the name. William told me he would personally look into it and resolve this immediately. He said there should be no reason WHY this person would be saying this - if he owes him parts, he will do his best to clear this up. > > William did also say that they have updated their webpage. As for those of us waiting on conversion manuals, William told me they are making a updates to them and would ship them out as soon as they are done. If you also ordered the CH601 installation manual along with the conversion manual, they usually ship them together, so hold tight and wait a bit longer please....they ARE coming soon! > > Larry > >--------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:22 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Let's change the subject - Zenith wing efficiency Has anyone attempted winglets on the horizontal stabilizer? I was wondering if it may be a good idea for a seaplane. It would help with weathervaning and possibly give some more authority with the elevator controls. DO NOT ARCHIVE On Jan 26, 2008 7:48 PM, wrote: > Hello List: > Slotted airfoils are interesting VG's seem to be fairly > controversial. Now why don't we start a discussion to add winglets to the > CH701 wing. As it does on commercial jets it will prevent the lateral flow > of air around the wing tip and create more lift. > > BTW Bernoulli provides about 10% of the lift of and airfoils - Newton > does the rest by banging the bottom of the wing into air molecules. The > airfoil shape allows passage of the wing through the air with a minimum of > drag. > > John Read > > Phone: 303-648-3261 > Fax: 303-648-3262 > Cell: 719-494-4567 > > > ------------------------------ > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > * > > * > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.