Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 AM - Re: Re: Electrical wires from engine (John Bolding)
2. 03:59 AM - Re: Rotary engines for all Zenith Aircraft (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Taildragger or not (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 06:00 AM - Re: Motivation for the Weary (cookwithgas)
5. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701) (LRM)
6. 08:16 AM - Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (jhines)
7. 08:43 AM - Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (nyterminat@aol.com)
8. 09:03 AM - Now that's STOL! (Craig Payne)
9. 09:04 AM - Re: test flight (Tim Juhl)
10. 09:14 AM - Re: ethanol in auto gas (Ron DeWees)
11. 09:26 AM - Trimming wings (wade jones)
12. 09:39 AM - Re: Trimming wings (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
13. 09:41 AM - Re: Trimming wings ()
14. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701) (n801bh@netzero.com)
15. 10:16 AM - Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (Bill Berle)
16. 10:49 AM - Re: Trimming wings (DaveG601XL)
17. 11:02 AM - Re: Trimming wings (cookwithgas)
18. 11:21 AM - Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (William Dominguez)
19. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Trimming wings (wade jones)
20. 12:28 PM - CH701 Flight Manal (Ken Arnold)
21. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: Trimming wings (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
22. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: VG's (JG)
23. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Electrical wires from engine (Juan Vega)
24. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: VG's (Juan Vega)
25. 03:12 PM - Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (kmccune)
26. 03:37 PM - Re: test flight (Bill Naumuk)
27. 03:50 PM - Re: test flight (Craig Payne)
28. 04:07 PM - Monday Evening Chat Room (George Race)
29. 04:50 PM - Re: test flight (Tim Juhl)
30. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: test flight (Edward Moody II)
31. 05:24 PM - Re: Fw: Strobe noise/alt noise (Juan Vega)
32. 06:02 PM - Re: Now that's STOL! (ricklach)
33. 06:47 PM - Phase 1 pax (THOMAS SMALL)
34. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: test flight (Bill Naumuk)
35. 07:05 PM - Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? (Ron Lendon)
36. 11:57 PM - Re: Now that's STOL! (Walter Yankauskas)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical wires from engine |
Easy to make the flange from a piece of steel tubing welded to a washer, any
size you want.
Next door neighbors hangar burned to the ground about 20 yrs ago, REALLY
hot fire and long time before Fire crew showed up. Cherokee 180 was reduced
to a sea of alum BB's and all the steel, glass parts were laid out on hangar
floor in shape of airplane, should have taken a pic of it. LO&SLO John
> The problem with the aluminum flange is that it melts at the temperature
> of a hydrocarbon fire. When I was a kid working in the hay fields in the
> Little Laramie Valley, a diesel fuel tank truck caught fire at one of the
> oil wells in the neighborhood. The aluminum from the tank was left as
> frozen puddles on the ground. It must have made a big impression on me
> since I remember it (vividly) 50 years later.
>
> An aluminum flange would be partially protected by the fire sleeve. It
> might or might not melt. I don't have any personal experience with an
> engine fire in an airplane, thank God. But I think I'll buy a couple of
> the EPM penetrators for my 601 just for my own comfort. And, there is
> still the question of what to do about the steering rod pass thorough.
> Each builder must decide how to handle these items. Obviously, a very
> knowledgeable aeronautical engineer, Chris Heintz, was not very worried
> about the steering rod holes in the fire wall.
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotary engines for all Zenith Aircraft |
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for posting the link to the Rotamax engine web page. I took a
quick look at it, and was not particularly impressed.
The biggest problems I noticed were:
1. The engines are very expensive. The only one which could be used
on my CH601XL started at over $17,000 in a configuration that was not
complete. It clearly didn't include the required PSRU. It also
didn't include the FWF items which were mentioned but not
detailed. After designing and/or purchasing an engine mount and the
other FWF items needed like a cowl and various plumbing and control
items this seems like it would be as expensive as a new Continental
or Lycoming engine and a lot more than a Rotax or Jabiru.
2. While the claim is that this was designed for aircraft use, the
requirements for a water cooling system, PSRU, Oil injection system,
and completely electronic control system suggest otherwise. The
basic engine may be simpler than a piston engine, but the accessories
seem to me to be failure points waiting to cause problems in an
airplane. There is no mention of fault tolerance built into the
engine besides the dual spark plugs. I would at least like to see a
statement that the engine will still run if the generator/battery
fails to supply power to the electronics.
3. Based on the web page, it seems this is a brand new design that
has not been used in any airplane or other vehicle. While I
appreciate use of new technology, I don't think a kit plane designed
for first time builders is a good testing ground for an unproven engine.
Perhaps these problems are figments of my imagination. Perhaps they
are real issues and can be resolved in a few years by some more
experience with this new line of engines.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 06:13 PM 1/26/2008, you wrote:
>I have not seen mention of the Rotamax engines on this list,
>probably because they are so new, but they are ideal for our
>purposes. I have long been a fan of the Mazda Rotary but it is too
>heavy and too powerful for our use. All that has changed with the
>Rotamax. Rather than write a long description I refer you
>to their web site. Jerry
>
><http://www.rotaryaircraftengines.com>http://www.rotaryaircraftengines.com
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Taildragger or not |
HI Dale,
Just a guess since I haven't weighed the parts. Perhaps 20 or 30
pounds represents the weight of the nose gear. Then subtract the
weight of the tail wheel and spring. I don't know if you need to
consider ballast in the nose to get good pitch stability with removal
of the nose wheel.
My two cents worth on the tail wheel vs. nose wheel question: I
favor the tricycle configuration for airplanes that will be operated
primarily from paved runways. Conventional gear was designed for use
on "Round" fields where crosswinds were never an issue, and they
present directional stability problems in any ground operations.
I don't think there is a great drag advantage for moderate speed
cruise in tail draggers. For high speed operations, retractable gear
is a much better choice.
I admit the nose gear can be a problem if you are operating from
unimproved "Bush" fields. That means the conventional arrangement is
a good choice for this mission. The large wheels often used for bush
work also increases the weight and drag advantage in this case.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 02:08 PM 1/26/2008, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the weight difference between the TD and trike?
>
>Dale
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Motivation for the Weary |
Congratulations John!
I'm glad you are back at it. It merits repeating that if you do just something
each day - even if it is cleaning up, you will be amazed at what you can get
done.
I travel with my job and I keep my "something-each-day" mindset even when spending
hours in the airport or on an airplane. I bring my laptop with me with drawings
and photos of the last thing I did and it's amazing what you can work out
in your head on a trip. When you get back some of your ideas will work and
some won't but at least you don't spend time in the garage scratching your head,
but you get right to work because it is all thought out.
Keep building and it will all come together.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
601XL/Corvair Finished & Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160828#160828
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701) |
However, if one builds the cabin over airfoil out of 1/8" lexan, as I am
doing, then his objection is taken care of. Right? Plus you can get Lexan
in a dark tint, which helps with the bright sunlight. It's easy to bend
and strong as hell.
LRM, skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701)
>
> At the risk of telling people something they already know, I heard Chris
> Heintz say why he had designed the 701 airfoil with the gap over the
> cabin. In a high wing aircraft like a Cessna, he objected to the fact
> that, for example, in turning left, the left wing goes down, and the pilot
> cannot see the sky into which he is turning; Chris regards that as
> dangerous. He told an amusing story at our RAA Canada meeting. When he
> first came to Canada, he was being checked out in a Cessna in preparation
> for his Canadian pilot's licence flight test. In order to see where he
> was going when turning, he skidded the aircraft around the corners using
> rudder with absolutely minimal bank angle. The instructor told him that
> he was a very proficient pilot, but that he would not pass his Canadian
> flight test!
>
> John Goodings (a 601, not a 701, pilot!)
>
>
> --
> 1/26/2008 3:45 PM
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
When I first decided to switch to scratch building, I thought it would be easy
to find a builder willing to pass on his old forming block when finished with
them. I was surprised when my post last year got no responses offering to sell
old forming blocks. Now I see why. Building these things is a kind of a 'right
of passage". No one should be able to say that they scratch built a plane
if they didn't have to make these things. Cutting metal and popping rivets
is easy. I find making the forming blocks much more tedious. Anyway, I am almost
done with wing forming blocks. I just have to make the relief cuts and I
am done. Lets see, there are 15 relief cuts on each block, times 18 blocks.
That's 270 relief cuts! I made a jig for my drill press and it works fine, but
its not near as quick as the oscillating spindle sander that Mark uses in his
"Scratch Built Basics" video. Ugh! I long for the day that I can pop another
rivet!
John Hines
www.johnsplane.com
--------
John Hines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160844#160844
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
John, Want to sell them when you are done??????? :) ;)
do not archive
When I first decided to switch to scratch building, I thought it would be easy
to find a builder willing to pass on his old forming block when finished with
them. I was surprised when my post last year got no responses offering to sell
old forming blocks. Now I see why. Building these things is a kind of a 'right
of passage". No one should be able to say that they scratch built a plane if
they didn't have to make these things. Cutting metal and popping rivets is
easy. I find making the forming blocks much more tedious. Anyway, I am almost
done with wing forming blocks. I just have to make the relief cuts and I am
done. Lets see, there are 15 relief cuts on each block, times 18 blocks.
That's 270 relief cuts! I made a jig for my drill press and it works fine, but
its not near as quick as the oscillating spindle sander that Mark uses in his
"Scratch Built Basics" video. Ugh! I long for the day that I can pop another
rivet!
John Hines
www.johnsplane.com
-----Original Message-----
From: jhines <johnrhines@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:10 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"???
When I first decided to switch to scratch building, I thought it would be easy
to find a builder willing to pass on his old forming block when finished with
them. I was surprised when my post last year got no responses offering to sell
old forming blocks. Now I see why. Building these things is a kind of a 'right
of passage". No one should be able to say that they scratch built a plane if
they didn't have to make these things. Cutting metal and popping rivets is
easy. I find making the forming blocks much more tedious. Anyway, I am almost
done with wing forming blocks. I just have to make the relief cuts and I am
done. Lets see, there are 15 relief cuts on each block, times 18 blocks.
That's 270 relief cuts! I made a jig for my drill press and it works fine, but
its not near as quick as the oscillating spindle sander that Mark uses in his
"Scratch Built Basics" video. Ugh! I long for the day that I can pop another
rivet!
John Hines
www.johnsplane.com
--------
John Hines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160844#160844
________________________________________________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Now that's STOL! |
Undated Alaskan STOL competition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDEYpqS0yw
-- Craig
Message 9
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Jeff,
You are correct in that there can be few more satisfying experiences than taking
an airplane that you built into the sky for it's first flight. I congratulate
you on such a great accomplishment.
I hope that not everyone takes Roger's advice. It would be more correct to say
that builders who have the experience and currency to deal with unexpected and
"different" flying characteristics should be able to conduct the first flight
safely. If I were the builder I would want to try to prepare myself to be able
to conduct that momentous flight, but I wouldn't let my ego or personal desires
get in the way of common sense.
In my career I have just happened to be on the scene on two occasions when a homebuilder
attempted the first flight in his creation and crashed in the attempt.
Fortunately both survived, but only one plane was rebuildable.
The first guy was a private pilot who hadn't flown in 5 years and was attempting
to fly a taildragger for the first time that had a prop that rotated in the
opposite direction to the typical continental or lycoming. He lost control on
the takeoff roll and went off the runway, hit a snowbank and flipped upside down.
The second was a guy who had maybe 200 hours in a Cessna 150. He was flying a
low wing speedy looking thing (don't remember what) and over-rotated on takeoff
causing the tail to bang the runway hard. The plane leapt into the air causing
him to overreact by jamming the nose down at which point he impacted the
runway, sheared the nosewheel and prop and slid along the pavement until coming
to rest.
Assuming that my first (and subsequent flights) are successful I hope to be able
to use my plane help some other guys get ready to fly their own... There is
no substitute for recent experience in type.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160850#160850
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ethanol in auto gas |
Sad but informative. Those of us using auto fuel in our airplane motors
now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol causes and
it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the Atlanta
Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum distributor
in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum companies.
Ron
>
> *Controversial ethanol being forced on us
>
> *By Tex Pitfield
> For the Journal-Constitution
> Published on: 01/28/08
>
> In the next month or so, you will possibly notice that when you buy
> gasoline for your vehicle, the dispenser will be freshly labeled "may
> contain ethanol."
>
> In fact, over the next several months, the majority of gasoline in the
> greater Atlanta area and in time the entire state will contain
> approximately 10 percent ethanol. This is being introduced by Georgia
> Department of Agriculture as a "voluntary" measure. While voluntary to
> the petroleum companies, it is far from "voluntary" for the general
> consumer.
>
> Inevitably, by spring, all gas you buy will be ethanol-bearing. You
> will have no choice, simply because the big oil companies that
> distribute the fuel for all the major brands will be mixing ethanol
> into their gasoline. Ethanol producers receive a 51-cent per gallon
> federal subsidy. Just remember that the subsidy comes out of your pocket.
>
> You may think ethanol is a good thing and you are helping the nation
> wean itself off dependency on foreign oil. You could not be more mistaken.
>
> To make 1 gallon of corn-based ethanol, you need in excess of a gallon
> of fossil fuel by some estimates. Other forms of ethanol, such as from
> wood chips and grass, require even more fossil fuel. Sugar beets and
> sugar cane ethanol require slightly less fuel.
>
> That does not apparently include the cost of the fuel to transport the
> finished product by rail or truck. Unlike gasoline, ethanol cannot be
> transported by pipeline since it picks up and retains water, rendering
> it unusable.
>
> Now here is where it gets really interesting. Ethanol requires in
> excess of 3 gallons of water to be produced. Refining crude oil to
> make gasoline takes maybe a gallon of water.
>
> In a time when the entire country for the most part is starving for
> water, we are wasting it to make an alternative fuel? Again, this
> logic has been unattainable.
>
> And if there were not enough black marks regarding ethanol already, we
> are now realizing that ethanol poses a disaster for the already
> sensitive environment. Ethanol fuel produces far more harmful fumes
> and pollutants, namely nitrous oxides, than regular fossil fuel. So
> the air we breathe gets worse, all in the effort to reduce dependency
> on foreign oil.
>
> You will also see a number of reports from environmental agencies,
> most in Europe and countries more aware of these issues than the
> United States, stating that the environmental impact of ethanol far
> outweighs any benefit it might possibly offer: loss of water, more
> pollutants onto the farm land and the devastation of forest for corn
> production.
>
> And if that was not enough, we in the transportation business have
> witnessed supply interruptions and logistical backlogs. For an
> infrastructure that is quickly becoming reliant on a questionable
> entity, there are a grave number of concerns that together create a
> potential calamity.
>
> The mileage in your car will suffer from ethanol usage, although that
> number is debated. A 10 percent mixture of ethanol and 90 percent
> gasoline is reported to reduce a vehicle's mileage by at least 5
> percent, perhaps 10 percent or more. Your car will not run as well.
>
> All these shortfalls are well known by the federal and state
> government, but lobbyists and various corporate entities who always
> seem to act in our best interests (read: adjustable mortgage rates,
> artificially low interest rates etc.) have deemed that this is
> something we need.
>
> Regrettably, once again, there appears to be little thought to the
> long-term results, only the short-term questionable gain, and again,
> it is likely that our elected officials are oblivious to the
> ramifications that their cash-driven, poorly thought out decisions
> will result in in the very near future.
>
> Fossil fuel as an energy source will not be going away in the
> foreseeable future, of that we can be certain.
>
> Realize that we the fuel carriers, the distributors, and many others
> do not want nor support ethanol. It makes our cost of doing business
> increase, is difficult to handle and the changeover is expensive. And
> we do not make more money with it.
>
> I addressed these very same issues recently with Tommy Irvin,
> commissioner of the Georgia Department of Agriculture. Again, it is a
> "voluntary change," I was told.
>
> And I mentioned to him that there are numerous alternative energy
> systems on the design table and already in production: electric cars,
> hydrogen fuel cells, that have merit and potential. Regrettably,
> perhaps my foresight is not the same as his.
>
> > Tex Pitfield is president and CEO of Saraguay Petroleum in Atlanta.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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Hello group ,At present I have 18 Months or 1516 hours invested in my
601xl project .The fuselage is complete but not on the gear ,the tail
surfaces are complete along with the ailerons& flaps ,both wings will be
complete when I rivet the top side of the leading edge skin on the right
wing . The nose gear main tube is complete along with the motor mount
,all cables brake cylinders ect are installed ,the canopy frame is
complete but no bubble yet . I have a NEW 0235 Franklin waiting for when
I am ready to start on the firewall forward ,the Franklin fits the 0200
mount .Lots more work is completed however I have bored you enough for
now .I have a question ,When trimming the root end of the wings can I
trust the dimensions on the drawings or should I cut oversize .
Wade Jones
South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
Wade
I have a template for that cut and the outboard cut also... If you promise
to send them back I will let you use them. I always even though it has been
used on 3 aircraft cut about 1/2 inch away from the template and test fit but
all 3 times they have been right on the money.
Jeff
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
Wade, I have not done that yet but I have been told to trim leaving an inch extra
then trial fit, re-assess, re-trim etc. until you are done.
Ed
---- wade jones <wjones@brazoriainet.com> wrote:
> Hello group ,At present I have 18 Months or 1516 hours invested in my 601xl project
.The fuselage is complete but not on the gear ,the tail surfaces are complete
along with the ailerons& flaps ,both wings will be complete when I rivet
the top side of the leading edge skin on the right wing . The nose gear main
tube is complete along with the motor mount ,all cables brake cylinders ect are
installed ,the canopy frame is complete but no bubble yet . I have a NEW 0235
Franklin waiting for when I am ready to start on the firewall forward ,the
Franklin fits the 0200 mount .Lots more work is completed however I have bored
you enough for now .I have a question ,When trimming the root end of the wings
can I trust the dimensions on the drawings or should I cut oversize .
Wade Jones South
Texas
> 601XL plans building
> Cont. 0200
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701) |
I did use a dark tinted acrylic on my 801 and ended up using the panel Z
enith furnished for that area for larger side windows. I think the main
point is, Chris designed the root fairings and cabin top specifically to
funnel the prop blast at the tail feathers so they could be more effect
ive at lower airspeeds. That is one reason one needs a power on landing
to get these stol planes to behave. Just my 2 cents worth....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "LRM" <lrm@skyhawg.com> wrote:
However, if one builds the cabin over airfoil out of 1/8" lexan, as I am
doing, then his objection is taken care of. Right? Plus you can get Le
xan
in a dark tint, which helps with the bright sunlight. It's easy to ben
d
and strong as hell.
LRM, skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cabib airfoil (on the 701)
ca>
>
> At the risk of telling people something they already know, I heard Chr
is
> Heintz say why he had designed the 701 airfoil with the gap over the
> cabin. In a high wing aircraft like a Cessna, he objected to the fact
> that, for example, in turning left, the left wing goes down, and the p
ilot
> cannot see the sky into which he is turning; Chris regards that as
> dangerous. He told an amusing story at our RAA Canada meeting. When
he
> first came to Canada, he was being checked out in a Cessna in preparat
ion
> for his Canadian pilot's licence flight test. In order to see where h
e
> was going when turning, he skidded the aircraft around the corners usi
ng
> rudder with absolutely minimal bank angle. The instructor told him th
at
> he was a very proficient pilot, but that he would not pass his Canadia
n
> flight test!
>
> John Goodings (a 601, not a 701, pilot!)
>
>
> --
> 1/26/2008 3:45 PM
>
>
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_____________________________________________________________
Financial Career Training - Click Here.
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Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
So... can I borrow your form blocks !?!? For me this is about flying off
of remote and short strips. I'm not a Tony Bingelis scratchbuilding purist.
jhines wrote:
>
> When I first decided to switch to scratch building, I thought it would be easy
to find a builder willing to pass on his old forming block when finished with
them. I was surprised when my post last year got no responses offering to sell
old forming blocks. Now I see why. Building these things is a kind of a
'right of passage". No one should be able to say that they scratch built a plane
if they didn't have to make these things. Cutting metal and popping rivets
is easy. I find making the forming blocks much more tedious. Anyway, I am
almost done with wing forming blocks. I just have to make the relief cuts and
I am done. Lets see, there are 15 relief cuts on each block, times 18 blocks.
That's 270 relief cuts! I made a jig for my drill press and it works fine,
but its not near as quick as the oscillating spindle sander that Mark uses in
his "Scratch Built Basics" video. Ugh! I long for the day that I can pop another
rivet!
>
> John Hines
> www.johnsplane.com
>
> --------
> John Hines
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160844#160844
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
I trimmed to the ZAC dimensions +10mm during wing construction. During wing fit-up,
I trimmed way more than 10 mm off so the ZAC dimensions are already a bit
conservative.
Keep up the good work!
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail & wings completed and
fueslage pretty well done. Working engine and electrical systems.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160871#160871
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
Wade:
Trim away. You will still have to trim more when you install the wings. Make
sure you find someone to help install the wings because they will be holding while
you are marking and trimming. You may not have much help now (I never did)
but when it starts to look like a flying airplane you will have lots of volunteers.
Don't use a template from somebody else. As you know your fuselage will be unique.
Keep up the good work,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160872#160872
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
I've made my relief cuts with the router and a 45 degree trimming bit. It is a
painless and quick operation.
However, If you make them with your router and you use them as mold to make your
crimps in the manner shown in Mark's scratch building DVD, they might come out
too wide. I use the ZAC crimping tool for this and the results are great.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
When I first decided to switch to scratch building, I thought it would be easy
to find a builder willing to pass on his old forming block when finished with
them. I was surprised when my post last year got no responses offering to sell
old forming blocks. Now I see why. Building these things is a kind of a 'right
of passage". No one should be able to say that they scratch built a plane
if they didn't have to make these things. Cutting metal and popping rivets
is easy. I find making the forming blocks much more tedious. Anyway, I am almost
done with wing forming blocks. I just have to make the relief cuts and I
am done. Lets see, there are 15 relief cuts on each block, times 18 blocks.
That's 270 relief cuts! I made a jig for my drill press and it works fine, but
its not near as quick as the oscillating spindle sander that Mark uses in his
"Scratch Built Basics" video. Ugh! I long for the day that I can pop another
rivet!
John Hines
www.johnsplane.com
--------
John Hines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160844#160844
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
Thanks to all that replied to my wing root trimming question .Now I will
start trimming away .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trimming wings
>
> Wade:
>
> Trim away. You will still have to trim more when you install the wings.
> Make sure you find someone to help install the wings because they will be
> holding while you are marking and trimming. You may not have much help
> now (I never did) but when it starts to look like a flying airplane you
> will have lots of volunteers.
>
> Don't use a template from somebody else. As you know your fuselage will
> be unique.
>
> Keep up the good work,
>
> Scott Laughlin
> www.cooknwithgas.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160872#160872
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | CH701 Flight Manal |
Hi All,
Some time ago I received a copy of the subject manual. I have lost it.
Can anyone help? Manual was a preliminary document that one could use
as pattern for your own use.
Many thanks,
Ken Arnold
Pikeville, NC
CH701 99% N701LK
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming wings |
In a message dated 1/28/2008 11:03:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Don't use a template from somebody else. As you know your fuselage will
be unique
That's why I told him to leave 1/2 inch for the differences. I have used
them on 3 sets of wings from 2 different builders and they do save a ton of
time. Just thought I would offer.
Jeff
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 22
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Gday Ben.
Yeh, taping up the slots on an 801 just might work. Depends upon your
CofG. Closing those slots makes the slats really part of the lifting
airfoil and moves the center of lift forward a bit. Evidence from the
701 experiments showed that at cruise the slats give no lift at all,
since several of us have found that the pitch trim did not change at all
on removing the slats. But I tried closing the slots on my Savannah and
it caused an aft CofG enough to be of concern. On the 801 that could be
no problem since I think you start with a more forward empty CofG.
That extra wing area, and more forward lift, may be really good for the
801. Bill Wilcox tried VGs on his 801 (and he certainly did
comprehensive testing), and the results weren't nearly as good as we
consistently get on 701s. We don't know why?? - but notable is the much
higher wing loading of the 801 - at MTOW about 12.9 lb/ftft compared to
9lb/ftft for the 701. So this will be a really interesting experiment,
and could bring some good results.
Just be aware that an aft CofG is insidious, in that the aircraft feels
much better - quicker and lighter pitch control and flies really well at
speed, but 'bites' when you get really slow.....
Looking forward to hearing your results!
Tailwinds always,
JG
----- Original Message -----
From: n801bh@netzero.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: VG's
Thanks Kevin for the link... I did read the article from Chris and it
is about what I thought he would say. I will keep my slats on and take
the "slight" reduction in speed in trade for the excellent STOL traits
of my 801. The next test I will probably try is to get some wide
helicopter tape and seal up the gap between the slats and the top and
botom of the wing, esentially making it a wider chord without the air
leaking through the slot and still maintaining the sleeker leading edge
provided by the slats. I will post results after the test. If ya don't
hear back from me it didn't work right. :<).
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net> wrote:
Thanks for the comments Joe,
I believe that you are correct in the case of who yells the loudest.
It is also a shame that more people don't speak up, who have done this.
Ben read the linked article form Mr Heintz
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewto=============
========bsp; - MATRONICS WEB
FORU=======================
sp;
&nb========================
======================
_____________________________________________________________
Click to begin your health care training online. Request info today.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical wires from engine |
just covefr the firewall side with Red RTV. Thats it. Mine go through firewall
with a rubber grommet and covered with Red RTV.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>Sent: Jan 27, 2008 10:29 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electrical wires from engine
>
>
>Hi Tim
>
>The problem with the aluminum flange is that it melts at the temperature of
>a hydrocarbon fire. When I was a kid working in the hay fields in the
>Little Laramie Valley, a diesel fuel tank truck caught fire at one of the
>oil wells in the neighborhood. The aluminum from the tank was left as
>frozen puddles on the ground. It must have made a big impression on me
>since I remember it (vividly) 50 years later.
>
>An aluminum flange would be partially protected by the fire sleeve. It
>might or might not melt. I don't have any personal experience with an
>engine fire in an airplane, thank God. But I think I'll buy a couple of the
>EPM penetrators for my 601 just for my own comfort. And, there is still the
>question of what to do about the steering rod pass thorough. Each builder
>must decide how to handle these items. Obviously, a very knowledgeable
>aeronautical engineer, Chris Heintz, was not very worried about the
>steering rod holes in the fire wall.
>
>I don't think there is a "right" answer for everyone. Each builder must
>decide what is their right answer. That's the beauty of experimental aircraft.
>
>Terry
>
>At 04:39 PM 1/27/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>>Feel free to flame the following suggestion but after looking at the kit
>>from epm-avcorp I got an idea. How about penetrating the firewall with a
>>1 inch diameter round aluminum flange riveted in place with the flange in
>>the cabin ($6.70 - PN 10350-4) then slipping a section of 1 inch ID
>>firesleeve over it ($10.90 / foot - PN AE102-16). Part numbers are from
>>AC Spruce.
>>
>>Pass the bundle of wires thru the firesleeve / flange and pack the
>>interior of the fire sleeve with commonly available firestopping caulk
>>(http://www.touch-n-seal.com/firestop.htm). A hose clamp over the
>>flange/firesleeve and another around the mouth of the firesleeve alone
>>should give you some protection.
>>
>>Tim
>
>
>Terry Phillips
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
>
>
Message 24
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in regular level flight the slats are allready part of the airfoil. Cutting them
off redueces the cord.
-----Original Message-----
>From: JG <vgstol@bigpond.net.au>
>Sent: Jan 28, 2008 4:09 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: VG's
>
>Gday Ben.
>Yeh, taping up the slots on an 801 just might work. Depends upon your CofG.
Closing those slots makes the slats really part of the lifting airfoil and moves
the center of lift forward a bit. Evidence from the 701 experiments showed
that at cruise the slats give no lift at all, since several of us have found
that the pitch trim did not change at all on removing the slats. But I tried
closing the slots on my Savannah and it caused an aft CofG enough to be of concern.
On the 801 that could be no problem since I think you start with a more
forward empty CofG.
>
>That extra wing area, and more forward lift, may be really good for the 801.
Bill Wilcox tried VGs on his 801 (and he certainly did comprehensive testing),
and the results weren't nearly as good as we consistently get on 701s. We don't
know why?? - but notable is the much higher wing loading of the 801 - at MTOW
about 12.9 lb/ftft compared to 9lb/ftft for the 701. So this will be a really
interesting experiment, and could bring some good results.
>
>Just be aware that an aft CofG is insidious, in that the aircraft feels much better
- quicker and lighter pitch control and flies really well at speed, but
'bites' when you get really slow.....
>
>Looking forward to hearing your results!
>
>Tailwinds always,
>JG
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
> From: n801bh@netzero.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: VG's
>
>
> Thanks Kevin for the link... I did read the article from Chris and it is about
what I thought he would say. I will keep my slats on and take the "slight"
reduction in speed in trade for the excellent STOL traits of my 801. The next
test I will probably try is to get some wide helicopter tape and seal up the
gap between the slats and the top and botom of the wing, esentially making it
a wider chord without the air leaking through the slot and still maintaining
the sleeker leading edge provided by the slats. I will post results after the
test. If ya don't hear back from me it didn't work right. :<).
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the comments Joe,
> I believe that you are correct in the case of who yells the loudest. It is also
a shame that more people don't speak up, who have done this.
>
> Ben read the linked article form Mr Heintz
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
>
> --------
> Kevin
> N701DZ Reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewto=====================bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORU=======================sp; &nb==============================================
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click to begin your health care training online. Request info today.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
Shoulda made a 701, fewer rib form blocks [Wink]
Actually, I like the wood working part, but then I'm as my kids call me, abi-normal
:?
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160923#160923
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T.J and Scott-
I wasn't planning on having someone fly off all 40 hrs, just have an
exceptional pilot I know who's done the shakedown runs on all kinds of
planes get it in the air and let me know what rigging changes are needed (If
any). Then, after the rigging is right, have him ride right seat for a
couple of hours and give me a heads up on the handling quirks. In 24
years/SEL, I've never flown a low wing plane, and can't rent so much as a
Cherokee around here.
As the insane asylum inmate said, "I'm crazy, not stupid!" Pretty much
sums up homebuilding.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: test flight
>
> do not archive
>
> I know there are circumstances that prevent some builders from doing the
> first flight, but the best advice received from ZAC came from Roger who
> told me to never allow anyone else to make the first flight. Boy was he
> correct.
>
> I'll not make crass comparisons with other "firsts," but you will never
> forget this one experience - you, and you alone, have created magic.
>
> jeff
>
>
>> Bill - no hangups. My FAA inspector knew I was not going to fly off my
>> 40 hours. I've had a couple of guys step forward and they are working on
>> it one weekend at a time.
>
>
>
Message 27
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Don't you need some sort of FAA exemption to have a passenger/copilot in the
plane during the 40 hour fly off?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: test flight
T.J and Scott-
I wasn't planning on having someone fly off all 40 hrs, just have an
exceptional pilot I know who's done the shakedown runs on all kinds of
planes get it in the air and let me know what rigging changes are needed (If
any). Then, after the rigging is right, have him ride right seat for a
couple of hours and give me a heads up on the handling quirks. In 24
years/SEL, I've never flown a low wing plane, and can't rent so much as a
Cherokee around here.
As the insane asylum inmate said, "I'm crazy, not stupid!" Pretty much
sums up homebuilding.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: test flight
>
> do not archive
>
> I know there are circumstances that prevent some builders from doing the
> first flight, but the best advice received from ZAC came from Roger who
> told me to never allow anyone else to make the first flight. Boy was he
> correct.
>
> I'll not make crass comparisons with other "firsts," but you will never
> forget this one experience - you, and you alone, have created magic.
>
> jeff
>
>
>> Bill - no hangups. My FAA inspector knew I was not going to fly off my
>> 40 hours. I've had a couple of guys step forward and they are working on
>> it one weekend at a time.
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Monday Evening Chat Room |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM EST
http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
CH-701 N73EX (Reserved)
Message 29
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The regs say only required crewmembers... I don't know if you could stretch that
interpretation to cover such a situation.... I'd pose it to the EAA and get
their input.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160941#160941
Message 30
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Here's my take on the issue. You could not stretch the regs to claim
that you need a passenger or copilot to establish the plane's
performance with two souls on board. Dead weight in the right seat would
definitely suffice. You could probably bring a safety pilot if your
flight was scheduled to test the HSI or other IFR gear under simulated
IMC. I will ask for a copilot allowance for setting and calibrating the
AOA system of my glass panels. It takes the pilot to fly into and
through a stall and recovery several times to establish the critical AOA
speed in the existing conditions. It also requires flying a zero G
parabola to establish a zero lift reference. In those two exercises, the
calibrate button must be pressed at the exact critical moment called for
in the calibration procedure. In my opinion, that would be safest with
two on board. I can't think of anything else in the test flight hours
that would justify a second crew member. Maybe checking the coffee
maker?
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Juhl
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: test flight
The regs say only required crewmembers... I don't know if you could
stretch that interpretation to cover such a situation.... I'd pose it to
the EAA and get their input.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160941#160941
--
1/28/2008 9:32 PM
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Strobe noise/alt noise |
Jim,
i am buying the noise suppressor, N700 from DNavone. How is yours working out,
any suggestions?
Juan VEga
601xl, 3300 jabiru, 74 hours
-----Original Message-----
>From: James Sagerser <alaskajim@cox.net>
>Sent: Jan 17, 2008 3:24 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: Strobe noise/alt noise
>
>
>No more noise! I purchased a inline noise filter from
>davidnavone.com. Here is the link (scroll down to N-700 filter):
>
> http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?24&cat=2
>
>The filter cost $15, It is the N-700 electronic noise suppression
>filter which uses solid state active filter elements as well as a
>huge passive torodial choke to eliminate inline noise. It is
>approximately 6" long and 1.75" inches in diameter. It weighs 8oz.
>There are 3 wires; the green goes to existing power from your radio
>fuse (or buss), the red to the power lead from your radio and the
>black to ground.
>
>Another note: The main consensus is the regulator/rectifier has a
>bad diode. Jabiru USA is sending another R/R for me to try. I
>really appreciate their help. I would prefer to find the original
>source of the noise instead of masking it so will try that when it
>arrives. Jim
>
>On Jan 14, 2008, at 6:45 PM, James Sagerser wrote:
>
>>
>> Here's the latest on my situation. I connected my radio directly
>> to the battery (power & ground) in the aft fuselage but still had
>> the same whine. I then took a motorcycle battery and connected the
>> radio directly to it and the whine was completely gone. The radio
>> was absolutely clear with the engine running. I have ordered an
>> inline noise filter suggested by several individuals and will let
>> you know how that turns out when it's installed. Thanks again to
>> everyone who responded. Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Now that's STOL! |
Only in Alaska. Having lived there I can say those guys are the experts.
Rick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160961#160961
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> Don't you need some sort of FAA exemption to have a passenger/copilot
in the
> plane during the 40 hour fly off?
Here is what the EAA Government Services said about this question - from
the February 7, 2003 copy of EAA e-HotLine:
(Boy, will your insurance company have a bit to say about carrying a pax
before end of Phase 1!!!)
Q & A: Question of the Week
Question for EAA Aviation Information Services:
The question in e-HOT LINE, Vol. 3, No. 5, states: The OpLims will
contain the following or a similarly worded statement: During the
flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during
flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight.
Okay, that's the letter of the law. Now please outline what could be
considered essential to the flight. I recently flew with a builder/pilot
who has about five hours on his airplane. He has an electrical problem
which only occurs in flight, and it could affect operational safety of
the aircraft. I rode along to monitor instruments and take notes should
the problem occur. It did, and my readings and notes helped us solve the
problem. We considered it necessary to have someone along to monitor the
instrumentation so the pilot/builder could focus on flying the airplane
during the incident. Were we legal? If not, what is legal?
Answer:
If a pilot feels it necessary to have another individual in the aircraft
on a flight during the phase-one flight test period, this must be
approved by the area FAA office, and such approval must be shown in the
aircraft's operating limitations. In other words, this is not something
that can be decided "on the spot" before a flight, but must be approved
in advance by the FAA.
If there is a situation where the builder or flight-test pilot has a
specific need for additional crew in the aircraft during the fight test
period, FAA Advisory Circular AC 20-27E, Certification and Operation of
Amateur-Built Aircraft, offers the following advice:
"If an additional crew member is required for a particular test
function, that requirement should be specified in the application
program letter for the airworthiness certificate and listed in the
operating limitations by the FAA."
The FAA will review each application on a case-by-case basis, and may
allow additional crew if they feel there is sufficient justification
Message 34
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All-
None of the recent posts reflects my intent. The shakedown hours
need not count towards the 40 "Fly Off" hours, and the test pilot I
spoke of is a CFII.
To keep it short, I intend to do whatever is necessary and legal to
give me the best chance of flying my project safely.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: test flight
Here's my take on the issue. You could not stretch the regs to claim
that you need a passenger or copilot to establish the plane's
performance with two souls on board. Dead weight in the right seat would
definitely suffice. You could probably bring a safety pilot if your
flight was scheduled to test the HSI or other IFR gear under simulated
IMC. I will ask for a copilot allowance for setting and calibrating the
AOA system of my glass panels. It takes the pilot to fly into and
through a stall and recovery several times to establish the critical AOA
speed in the existing conditions. It also requires flying a zero G
parabola to establish a zero lift reference. In those two exercises, the
calibrate button must be pressed at the exact critical moment called for
in the calibration procedure. In my opinion, that would be safest with
two on board. I can't think of anything else in the test flight hours
that would justify a second crew member. Maybe checking the coffee
maker?
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Juhl
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: test flight
The regs say only required crewmembers... I don't know if you could
stretch that interpretation to cover such a situation.... I'd pose it to
the EAA and get their input.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160941#160941
http://www.matron===================
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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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-- Edition. 1/28/2008 9:32 PM
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Forming blocks - a 'right of passage"??? |
The reliefs were made using a 3/4" 24 grit barrel sander in a die grinder, took
about an two hours to mark and grind em in.
YMMV
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160987#160987
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| Subject: | Re: Now that's STOL! |
That video was from last year's Valdez May day Fly-In.
http://www.valdezalaska.org/events/flyIn/flyIn.html
The plane taking off is the Cub Crafters "Carbon Cub", it's best take
off was 19 feet with a best landing of 53 feet. In front of hundreds of
people on a marked and measured taxiway.
Bill Wilcox had an 88 foot takeoff in his 801, then he went back to his
hangar and took the leading edge slats off and wanted another try, but
the judges didn't feel that it was appropriate for one of the guys
running the contest to make multiple runs in different configurations.
Walter
Anchorage, AK - Tri-Pacer, 701 kit
Craig Payne wrote:
>
> Undated Alaskan STOL competition.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDEYpqS0yw
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
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