Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: Flutter Once Again (Scott Thatcher)
2. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Dave Austin)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (Ron Lalonde)
4. 07:27 AM - Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll (Rick Lindstrom)
5. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
6. 07:42 AM - 601 Dual Stick Option for sale (John Davis)
7. 07:54 AM - Re: 601 Dual Stick Option for sale (Trainnut01@aol.com)
8. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Bill Steer)
9. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: 13 year old builder (Randall J. Hebert)
10. 08:51 AM - Rudder cable tension for HD/HDS (THOMAS SMALL)
11. 09:15 AM - Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll (Thomas Saniewski)
12. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Dave Austin)
13. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Juan Vega)
14. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Dave Austin)
15. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Bill Steer)
16. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Bill Steer)
17. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (THOMAS SMALL)
18. 11:51 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (William Dominguez)
19. 12:00 PM - Re: 601 Dual Stick Option for sale (hansriet)
20. 12:42 PM - Fw: Looking for Bill Bodin (Allan Barton)
21. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Juan Vega)
22. 01:46 PM - Re: Rudder cable tension for HD/HDS (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
23. 01:58 PM - Re: Hole Flanging (ROBERT SCEPPA)
24. 02:08 PM - Re: Hole Flanging (Randy L. Thwing)
25. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Jim Hoak)
26. 03:05 PM - Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll (John M. Goodings)
27. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Flutter Once Again (Bryan Martin)
28. 03:26 PM - Wheel Pants (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
29. 03:44 PM - Re: Flutter Once Again (Sabrina)
30. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: 13 year old builder (Michael Hilderbrand)
31. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: 13 year old builder (n801bh@netzero.com)
32. 04:55 PM - Re: Hole Flanging (kmccune)
33. 05:34 PM - Re: Flutter Once Again (Tim Juhl)
34. 07:22 PM - Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll (leinad)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
I know, it's been beat to death. But here is my last (hopefully) reflection
on what caused the last WING flutter case in Forida several month ago.
As you may recall (search archives for flutter for an exhausting display of
comments and suggestions), there were two 601XL's that experienced either
flutter or severe torsional or vertical vibrations that appeared to be on
the verge of destroying the aircraft, but were saved from that fate by luck
or pilot intervention.
The last one that was reported was in Florida and after talking with the
mechanic who was repairing the aircraft, this is what happened.
During a descending turn to the right, the entire aircraft began to shake
violently at which time the aircraft was landed at the nearest airport and
inspected (no information was provided on how they stopped the vibrations).
Damage was noted to the flap bearing material that showed the nylon had
severe elongations in and around the pinion of the flap actuator. The rudder
had severe damage.
So what caused the "flutter" to occur?
It appears that a previous hangar accident caused one of the ribs in the
rudder to be bent. The owners then repaired the rib and purchased new skin
to replace the damage. To strengthen the rib, either wood or metal (I don't
remember which) was used as a doubler on the rear portion of the rib.
It is thought that the addition of the doubler to the rib affected the mass
balance of the flying rudder, thus directly contributing to the flutter
condition (in the tail)! This was then transferred to the wings and appeared
to be coming from them. It was also thought that the pilot may have
contributed to the "flutter" by exacerbating the situation in an attempt to
stop the "flutter."
So, it appears that as long as we follow the construction methods outlined
by Zenith, we should not have any problems. If you deviate from the plans,
be sure you know the consequences of your actions. Even the slightest change
can cost you your life... especially when they occur on control surfaces.
Always call Zenith. They always will provide you with the help and expertise
you need to make that repair.
I am in no way faulting the pilot in Lantana for the repair work or actions
during the flight. Sometimes our reactions are just that and none of us are
immune from making similar mistakes. But hopefully, we all can learn from
those mistakes.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Scott's information on the possible cause of flutter in the 601 from Florida
pushes me to detail a rudder flutter that I experienced back some 11 years
ago which Don Chapman can attest to. The a/c is a trike.
Flying straight and level with some air induced bumps of low level, the a/c
started to vibrate at a very low frequency, maybe twice a second. I'd
describe this vibration as very concerning but not panic inducing. I
immediately reduced power, to no effect, raised the nose to reduce speed, to
no effect. Then realized it was the rudder fluttering. So I pushed hard on
the rudder pedals in an attempt to tighten the control cables and this
stopped the vibration.
On ground checking found that the rudder cables were too loose. Long
brainstorming came to the conclusion that I had adjusted the cable tension
with the nosewheel on the ground taking weight and had allowed too much
slack for when the wheel was unladen when flying. That 80 degree angled
firewall could kill you.
I jacked the nosewheel off the ground and set the cable tension to spec in
flying position and have never had the problem re-occur.
FWIW.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 3
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Just got back from the local machinists place. Just to have the two larger
dies made (95mm and 115mm), will be
110 dollars EACH!
Certainly not able to go that route. Will have to watch the list and see wh
ere those metal dies that are floating around (that can be used for the cos
t of shipping.) Still be a lot cheaper to pay shipping to Nova Scotia, Cana
da, then to have them manufactured here. Now just to locate them!!
Sure wish I was related to a machinist...LOL
(The idea of installing L brackets to solve the bowing problem sounds good
as well)
Ron
From: rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COMTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Zenith-
List: Hole FlangingDate: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:08:53 -0400
Thanks William and Debo for your replies.Debo, I looked up the construction
sheet for the dies and brought it to a machinist today. William, I used th
e flanging dies made of wood and I experienced the same problem as you did.
The rib webs were bowed. I however had another problem in that my flanges w
ere not as wide as they should have been...I think I should have used a pre
ss instead of hammering on them. The seemed uneven and not centered perfect
ly. Anyways, I think that I am going to have a set of steel dies made, red
o the flanges by repeating the process. Hopefull will be perfectly "presse
d" this time with a stronger die being used. If I run into the bowed proble
m even after this is done, I will use the "hardwood stick" that Scott sugge
sted. Thanks again guys for your help. I sure do not want to have to redo a
new set of wing ribs, as you well know, this is a heck of a lot of work!!!
Thanks again, your help is much appreciated. Ron Lalonde601XL, Plans 6520Ta
il completed, working on wingsNova Scotia, Canada
enith-List: Hole FlangingTo: zenith-list@matronics.comMy dies are also made
of wood and after I use them, I have to do a little more work to get it ri
ght. In my experience, after using the die, the rib web gets bowed inward,
as you can see in this picture:http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/p
hoto#5157577591804484914Scott Laughlin gave me an idea that lead me to do t
his:http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577600394419522I u
sed the improvised tool in the picture to bend the flange a bit further dow
n until the rib web get straight and it worked well: http://picasaweb.googl
e.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577613279321426The good news is that it no o
nly got straight but the web feels stronger too, oil canning effect was red
uced to almost nothing.William DominguezZodiac 601XL PlansMiami Floridahttp
://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/rlalonde <rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: ="ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank>http://www.ma
tronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/co==
==============
_________________________________________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll |
Yep, I'll be there.
N42KP will remain on the West Coast, however.
Rick Lindstrom, Contributing Editor
KITPLANES Magazine
-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net>
>Sent: Feb 12, 2008 9:16 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Going to SnF 2008? poll
>
>
>Are you going to Sun N Fun 2008? Add to the poll, let's get a count.
>
>do not archive
>
>--------
>Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
>Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
>http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163684#163684
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Dave, what cable tension did you use. I am building a 601HD and do not
recall any cable tension called out. This sounds like a good idea for setting
the
tension. Jerry of GA
In a message dated 2/13/2008 9:43:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
daveaustin2@primus.ca writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
Scott's information on the possible cause of flutter in the 601 from Florida
pushes me to detail a rudder flutter that I experienced back some 11 years
ago which Don Chapman can attest to. The a/c is a trike.
Flying straight and level with some air induced bumps of low level, the a/c
started to vibrate at a very low frequency, maybe twice a second.
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Message 6
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| Subject: | 601 Dual Stick Option for sale |
Hi All,
I purchased the dual stick option for my 601 but have decided to stay
with the center stick. The option retails for $485 and I'm willing to
sell it for $400 and I'll throw in free shipping to the continental US
as well.
Thanks,
John Davis
Burnsville, NC
601XL - Jab 3300 - Almost finished!!!
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Dual Stick Option for sale |
John
I'll Take it. I'll contact you off-list in a few minutes.
Carroll
do not archive
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
I didn't save the original post, so don't have the exact wording,
but... Since the firewall is slanted back, the cable tension will be
less when the plane is on the ground and the nose gear is compressed,
won't it? With the plane in the air, and the nose gear at the bottom
stop (i.e., the steering rod attachment points, and therefore the rudder
pedals, more forward), the cable tension should be higher.
Am I missing something?
Bill
Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote:
> Dave, what cable tension did you use. I am building a 601HD and do not
> recall any cable tension called out. This sounds like a good idea for
> setting the tension. Jerry of GA
>
>
> In a message dated 2/13/2008 9:43:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> daveaustin2@primus.ca writes:
>
> <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
>
> Scott's information on the possible cause of flutter in the 601
> from Florida
> pushes me to detail a rudder flutter that I experienced back some
> 11 years
> ago which Don Chapman can attest to. The a/c is a trike.
> Flying straight and level with some air induced bumps of low
> level, the a/c
> started to vibrate at a very low frequency, maybe twice a second.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 13 year old builder |
A Dad and Granddad can be proud.
But this answers a lot of my questions
Randall J Hebert 63
CH701 Plans Builder
10% Complete
Where did I get the money for the airplane? I sold my high school
car, a 2004 Corvette that just sat in the garage waiting for me to turn
15 at Carmax for $32,000.
Do I still believe in Santa Claus? You bet!
Message 10
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| Subject: | Rudder cable tension for HD/HDS |
I am building a 601HD and do not recall any cable tension called out.
+++ The older Construction Manual received with the HD/HDS kits (or
plans) lists 30 pounds. Check around page 29 if memory serves - but
it's the first to go.
*** Just checked, yep, on page 29 with the info on the control surface
deflection is a note that cable tension "between 30 to 40 pounds." In
the archives you will find a few mentions that both Nick and Chris say
25 to 30 pounds. That's from others, I never heard from either but then
I never asked.
Dave A.'s comment to tension them with nose wheel off ground
(presuming tri-gear) is good, do that here.
do not archive jeff
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll |
Will be there 10th and 11th. Hope to meet you all.
Tom, Greenville SC
Trainnut01@aol.com wrote:
yes
Carroll
do not archive
---------------------------------
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music
takes you there.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Bill, you are correct. But I recognized that and decided to leave some
slack with the nosewheel on the ground so that the cables would not be too
tight in flight mode. I gave a bit too much allowance. Hence the advice..
adjust the tension with the nosewheel off the ground.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Bill,
the tension is not impacted whether on land or air, since you have control rods,
(a solid itme) from rudder pedals though the fir walll the Nose whell. Stiff
rudder cables are not as a concern as the Aileron and Elevator cables, which
would be around 30 #. or 4 Inch #.
Tight enough to not bind the movement and still be smooth.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Steer <steerr@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Feb 13, 2008 10:52 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flutter Once Again
>
>
>I didn't save the original post, so don't have the exact wording,
>but... Since the firewall is slanted back, the cable tension will be
>less when the plane is on the ground and the nose gear is compressed,
>won't it? With the plane in the air, and the nose gear at the bottom
>stop (i.e., the steering rod attachment points, and therefore the rudder
>pedals, more forward), the cable tension should be higher.
>
>Am I missing something?
>
>Bill
>
>
>Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote:
>> Dave, what cable tension did you use. I am building a 601HD and do not
>> recall any cable tension called out. This sounds like a good idea for
>> setting the tension. Jerry of GA
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 2/13/2008 9:43:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> daveaustin2@primus.ca writes:
>>
>> <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
>>
>> Scott's information on the possible cause of flutter in the 601
>> from Florida
>> pushes me to detail a rudder flutter that I experienced back some
>> 11 years
>> ago which Don Chapman can attest to. The a/c is a trike.
>> Flying straight and level with some air induced bumps of low
>> level, the a/c
>> started to vibrate at a very low frequency, maybe twice a second.
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Jerry,
It was a long time ago and I cannot find the specs for cable tension. I
would say however, that I would not tighten to the 30 to 40 lbs as given
for the elevators and ailerons as in another msg on this. If I recall I
used "just snug". Very scientific!
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Ok, I'm with you. Thanks.
Bill
do not archive
Dave Austin wrote:
>
> Bill, you are correct. But I recognized that and decided to leave
> some slack with the nosewheel on the ground so that the cables would
> not be too tight in flight mode. I gave a bit too much allowance.
> Hence the advice.. adjust the tension with the nosewheel off the ground.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
I respectfully disagree with your first sentence. It is PRECISELY
because there are solid rods between the rudder pedals and the nose gear
that the tension varies as the nose gear moves vertically. Note that,
due to the angle of the firewall, it isn't pure vertical movement; it
also moves horizontally. When the nose gear is at the bottom stop, the
rod attachment points are farthest forward and thus the rudder pedals
are farthest forward, thereby pulling harder on the rudder cables. When
the nose gear is off the bottom stop, as when it is on the ground, the
rod attachment points move back, thereby causing the rudder pedals to
move back, thereby causing less tension in the rudder cables.
Bill
Juan Vega wrote:
>
> Bill,
> the tension is not impacted whether on land or air, since you have control rods,
(a solid itme) from rudder pedals though the fir walll the Nose whell. Stiff
rudder cables are not as a concern as the Aileron and Elevator cables, which
would be around 30 #. or 4 Inch #.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
>the tension is not impacted whether on land or air, since you have
control rods, (a solid item) from rudder pedals though the fire wall the
nose wheel.
+++ Beg to differ. When the nose gear compresses on the ground, the
steering rods move backward very, very slightly (~13 degree slant of
firewall). As they are a solid link as you pointed out, the rudder
pedals will also move rearward a bit. Since the cables to rudder are
mounted to the pedal tops, a minor lessening of tension in the cables
will result. The "tension" (distance) between the pedals and nose gear
will not change as it's a fixed arm, the distance/arm between the pedals
and rudder horn will change as nose gear extends, as in flight, or
compresses, as on the ground.
>that I would not tighten to the 30 to 40 lbs as given
>for the elevators and ailerons as in another msg on this.
Dave, the cable tension from page 29 of our old Construction Manual is
for all control surfaces, not just aileron and elevator. I went to the
manual and checked - I would not make the statement if it were not
factual. As you said, "It was a long time ago and I cannot find the
specs for cable tension." If it's true that Chris said 25 to 30 pounds
then that should be good enough for those who have access to a
tensionometer.
Respectfully
Jeff Small HDS/3300
Message 18
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If you are hammering them that could be your problem. I use a vise and 3 C clamps:
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577557444746498
Here is how my wooden dies look like:
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577544559844594
Because of the compressibility of wood, wooden dies need to have the pressure applied
uniformly. A hammer wont guarantee that. You can give a try to your hardwood
dies using a vise and clams and see what happens.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/
Ron Lalonde <rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px
} body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
Just got back from the local machinists place. Just to have the two larger dies
made (95mm and 115mm), will be
110 dollars EACH!
Certainly not able to go that route. Will have to watch the list and see where
those metal dies that are floating around (that can be used for the cost of shipping.)
Still be a lot cheaper to pay shipping to Nova Scotia, Canada, then
to have them manufactured here. Now just to locate them!!
Sure wish I was related to a machinist...LOL
(The idea of installing L brackets to solve the bowing problem sounds good as
well)
Ron
---------------------------------
From: rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage
{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Thanks William and Debo for your replies.
Debo, I looked up the construction sheet for the dies and brought it to a machinist
today.
William, I used the flanging dies made of wood and I experienced the same problem
as you did.
The rib webs were bowed. I however had another problem in that my flanges were
not as wide as they should have been...I think I should have used a press instead
of hammering on them. The seemed uneven and not centered perfectly.
Anyways, I think that I am going to have a set of steel dies made, redo the flanges
by repeating the process. Hopefull will be perfectly "pressed" this time
with a stronger die being used. If I run into the bowed problem even after this
is done, I will use the "hardwood stick" that Scott suggested.
Thanks again guys for your help. I sure do not want to have to redo a new set
of wing ribs, as you well know, this is a heck of a lot of work!!!
Thanks again, your help is much appreciated.
Ron Lalonde
601XL, Plans 6520
Tail completed, working on wings
Nova Scotia, Canada
---------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:45:11 -0800
From: bill_dom@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging
My dies are also made of wood and after I use them, I have to do a little more
work to get it right. In my experience, after using the die, the rib web gets
bowed inward, as you can see in this picture:
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577591804484914
Scott Laughlin gave me an idea that lead me to do this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577600394419522
I used the improvised tool in the picture to bend the flange a bit further down
until the rib web get straight and it worked well:
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577613279321426
The good news is that it no only got straight but the web feels stronger too, oil
canning effect was reduced to almost nothing.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/
rlalonde <rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/co================
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Dual Stick Option for sale |
Dang! Too late.
Hans van Riet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163895#163895
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fw: Looking for Bill Bodin |
Hi
I am trying to contact Bill Bodin from Ohio
He is building a 701
The email I have, has bounced
If you are out there Bill please contact me
Build and Fly Safe
Allan
Cummins Spinners
www.cumminsspinners.com
Australia
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Bill,
I respect your position, though I think you are over thinking it. question though,
when is flutter appraent, when in the air or land, or during the transition?
set the tension so as not to impede motion, thats it. Secondly if the rods
go through their full movement, then someone is landing way to hard. We are
not building x-15 rocket ships here, set it to feel solid, but not to impede
movement, if that does not help, sorry.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Steer <steerr@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Feb 13, 2008 1:22 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flutter Once Again
>
>
>I respectfully disagree with your first sentence. It is PRECISELY
>because there are solid rods between the rudder pedals and the nose gear
>that the tension varies as the nose gear moves vertically. Note that,
>due to the angle of the firewall, it isn't pure vertical movement; it
>also moves horizontally. When the nose gear is at the bottom stop, the
>rod attachment points are farthest forward and thus the rudder pedals
>are farthest forward, thereby pulling harder on the rudder cables. When
>the nose gear is off the bottom stop, as when it is on the ground, the
>rod attachment points move back, thereby causing the rudder pedals to
>move back, thereby causing less tension in the rudder cables.
>
>Bill
>
>
>Juan Vega wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> the tension is not impacted whether on land or air, since you have control rods,
(a solid itme) from rudder pedals though the fir walll the Nose whell.
Stiff rudder cables are not as a concern as the Aileron and Elevator cables, which
would be around 30 #. or 4 Inch #.
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder cable tension for HD/HDS |
Thanks Jeff, I did miss it and had too look twice to find it. Jerry of Ga.
Do not archive
In a message dated 2/13/2008 11:53:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tjs22t@verizon.net writes:
I am building a 601HD and do not recall any cable tension called out.
+++ The older Construction Manual received with the HD/HDS kits (or plans)
lists 30 pounds. Check around page 29 if memory serves - but it's the first
to go.
*** Just checked, yep, on page 29 with the info on the control surface
deflection is a note that cable tension "between 30 to 40 pounds." In the
archives you will find a few mentions that both Nick and Chris say 25 to 30 pounds.
That's from others, I never heard from either but then I never asked.
Dave A.'s comment to tension them with nose wheel off ground (presuming
tri-gear) is good, do that here.
do not archive jeff
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
ontribution)
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
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Message 23
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> Theres a website..zenith ch701ch801.com. click on
> side bar where it says builders links
> then click home made tools. Theres a new site
> called Flanging Dies Construction.pdf by Ron D
> Leclerc. Shows how to make flanging dies step by
> step and pics to boot. Do not archive
--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you are hammering them that could be your
> problem. I use a vise and 3 C clamps:
>
>
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577557444746498
>
> Here is how my wooden dies look like:
>
>
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577544559844594
>
> Because of the compressibility of wood, wooden dies
> need to have the pressure applied uniformly. A
> hammer wont guarantee that. You can give a try to
> your hardwood dies using a vise and clams and see
> what happens.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/
>
> Ron Lalonde <rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px }
> body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
> }
> Just got back from the local machinists place. Just
> to have the two larger dies made (95mm and 115mm),
> will be
> 110 dollars EACH!
> Certainly not able to go that route. Will have to
> watch the list and see where those metal dies that
> are floating around (that can be used for the cost
> of shipping.) Still be a lot cheaper to pay shipping
> to Nova Scotia, Canada, then to have them
> manufactured here. Now just to locate them!!
>
> Sure wish I was related to a machinist...LOL
>
> (The idea of installing L brackets to solve the
> bowing problem sounds good as well)
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> From: rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:08:53 -0400
>
> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;}
> .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage
> {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Thanks William
> and Debo for your replies.
> Debo, I looked up the construction sheet for the
> dies and brought it to a machinist today.
> William, I used the flanging dies made of wood and I
> experienced the same problem as you did.
> The rib webs were bowed. I however had another
> problem in that my flanges were not as wide as they
> should have been...I think I should have used a
> press instead of hammering on them. The seemed
> uneven and not centered perfectly.
>
> Anyways, I think that I am going to have a set of
> steel dies made, redo the flanges by repeating the
> process. Hopefull will be perfectly "pressed" this
> time with a stronger die being used. If I run into
> the bowed problem even after this is done, I will
> use the "hardwood stick" that Scott suggested.
> Thanks again guys for your help. I sure do not want
> to have to redo a new set of wing ribs, as you well
> know, this is a heck of a lot of work!!!
> Thanks again, your help is much appreciated.
>
> Ron Lalonde
> 601XL, Plans 6520
> Tail completed, working on wings
> Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:45:11 -0800
> From: bill_dom@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
> My dies are also made of wood and after I use them,
> I have to do a little more work to get it right. In
> my experience, after using the die, the rib web gets
> bowed inward, as you can see in this picture:
>
>
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577591804484914
>
> Scott Laughlin gave me an idea that lead me to do
> this:
>
>
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577600394419522
>
> I used the improvised tool in the picture to bend
> the flange a bit further down until the rib web get
> straight and it worked well:
>
>
http://picasaweb.google.com/billdomg/Wings/photo#5157577613279321426
>
> The good news is that it no only got straight but
> the web feels stronger too, oil canning effect was
> reduced to almost nothing.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/
>
> rlalonde <rlalonde@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
>
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/co===============
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Flanging |
do not archive
What metal dies are those Ron?
Randy, Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Lalonde
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:17 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging
Will have to watch the list and see where those metal dies that are
floating around
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Hey Listers,
When building my 601HD 12 years ago I asked ZAC about this same perceived
problem ( rudder cable tension changes as nose gear moves up and down). At
that time Nick stated that it had not been reported as a problem. It turns
out that then cable tension lessens upon landing when the gear goes up and
aft. In reality the gear doesn't move all that much as seen by the marking
on the grease on the gear. I set my cable tension for "in flight" when the
gear is at the bottom of it's travel. I used about 20 to 25 lbs. tension.
No problem over the past 575 hours.
Rudder flutter could be serious and perhaps "loose" cables, along with
"unbalanded" rudder could lead to it. The "all flying" rudder on the Zenith
may be different. I'm not a engineer so I don't know.
I just know that I've had no problem with my 601HD.
do not archive
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Steer" <steerr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flutter Once Again
>
> I respectfully disagree with your first sentence. It is PRECISELY because
> there are solid rods between the rudder pedals and the nose gear that the
> tension varies as the nose gear moves vertically. Note that, due to the
> angle of the firewall, it isn't pure vertical movement; it also moves
> horizontally. When the nose gear is at the bottom stop, the rod
> attachment points are farthest forward and thus the rudder pedals are
> farthest forward, thereby pulling harder on the rudder cables. When the
> nose gear is off the bottom stop, as when it is on the ground, the rod
> attachment points move back, thereby causing the rudder pedals to move
> back, thereby causing less tension in the rudder cables.
>
> Bill
>
>
> Juan Vega wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> the tension is not impacted whether on land or air, since you have
>> control rods, (a solid itme) from rudder pedals though the fir walll the
>> Nose whell. Stiff rudder cables are not as a concern as the Aileron and
>> Elevator cables, which would be around 30 #. or 4 Inch #.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll |
We hope. John and Sally Goodings. Do not archive.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
As long as you build your plane with no "slop" in the controls, you
are not going to see any signs of flutter in a Zenith airplane within
the designed speed limits unless you've deviated from the design in a
MAJOR way. I have test flown my Zodiac to 200 MPH IAS during the phase
I test period with no evidence of flutter. I didn't calculate the TAS
for that flight but it was probably close to 210 MPH. Based on my test
flights, I felt confident setting my Vne at 180 MPH as per the info I
got from ZAC. I just tightened my turnbuckles until the cables felt
snug with no slack and called it good.
On Feb 13, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Jim Hoak wrote:
>
> Hey Listers,
>
> When building my 601HD 12 years ago I asked ZAC about this same
> perceived problem ( rudder cable tension changes as nose gear moves
> up and down). At that time Nick stated that it had not been reported
> as a problem. It turns out that then cable tension lessens upon
> landing when the gear goes up and aft. In reality the gear doesn't
> move all that much as seen by the marking on the grease on the gear.
> I set my cable tension for "in flight" when the gear is at the
> bottom of it's travel. I used about 20 to 25 lbs. tension.
>
> No problem over the past 575 hours.
>
> Rudder flutter could be serious and perhaps "loose" cables, along
> with "unbalanded" rudder could lead to it. The "all flying" rudder
> on the Zenith may be different. I'm not a engineer so I don't know.
>
> I just know that I've had no problem with my 601HD.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 28
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DO NOT ARCHIVE
I still have 2 sets of original wheel pants for the 601 XL.
they are still in the brown paper as sent from ZAC.
they are minus the mounting brackets but the brackets can be purchased separately
from ZAC.
the price has been dropped to $200 or best offer per set because i do not want
to haul them to Sun N Fun.
contact me by e-mail
bobbypaulk@comcast.net
N131BP with 65 hours
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
This past December, Roger at Zenith stated that the proper tension for all cables
is 25 + or - 5 pounds. The rudder cables should be set with the nose strut
stop plate at rest, for my craft, a second person was required to put a little
up force on the metal prop. I found I had rigged all of my cables over 30 using
just the thumb/fingers test, so I am glad I borrowed Lumanair's tensionometer.
I did not do it, but it would be interesting to re-check the tension with
the nose held down and see if the tension gets out of range, i.e. below 20
pounds. If so, could the flutter be caused by a nose strut sticking and not
returning to the fully extended position? If the tension does change a significant
amount with the movement of the strut, one might want to tension it to the
top of the range, 30, so it remains in range if it were to stick.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163921#163921
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 13 year old builder |
Zenith could use this as a promotional tool! Although, I do not know of too
many 13 year olds like yourself, Sabrina.
Hmm... what can I do to get my 1 year old daughter to like airplanes and flying?
Michael Hilderbrand
Derby, Kansas
Http://www.kansasflying.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:59:06 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 13 year old builder
If the craft had failed the MISO inspection, so long as it had the "Amateur Built"
warning, it was still possible to register it as an amateur built after inspection
by the FSDO. Once it passed MISO inspection, the "Amateur Built" warning
could be removed, leaving only the "Experimental" warning. One key benefit
is that I can give the airplane to my dad for his birthday, and as a "subsequent"
owner, he can conduct E-LSA conditional inspections after going through
a 16 hour course at EAA HQ and applying for/receiving an E-LSA repairman certificate
from the FAA. I think amateur builts can only be conditionally inspected
by the original builder and not subsequent owners. Since I am only 14, I
could not apply for the repairman certificate on an amateur built anyhow.
I cannot thank all of you out there enough for all of your help over the years.
I asked most of you just one question or two, so as not to bother you too much.
As the WTTW segment points out, I could not have done it without you!
N5886Q--the aeroplane the internet built! http://sabrina.aero
P.S. Zenith is OK with the name and my modifications. They lovingly call it the
XL SE (Sabrina Edition). (Back in early 2006, they were the only kit mfg.
open to idea of a 12 year old building their airplane.) Zenith rules!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163693#163693
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 13 year old builder |
Buy her a Corvette for kindergarten. ??? Jus guessing..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Michael Hilderbrand <m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Zenith could use this as a promotional tool! Although, I do not know
of too many 13 year olds like yourself, Sabrina.Hmm... what can I do to
get my 1 year old daughter to like airplanes and flying?
Michael Hilderbrand
Derby, Kansas
Http://www.kansasflying.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:59:06 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 13 year old builder
If the craft had failed the MISO inspection, so long as it had the "Amat
eur Built" warning, it was still possible to register it as an amateur b
uilt after inspection by the FSDO. Once it passed MISO inspection, the
"Amateur Built" warning could be removed, leaving only the "Experimental
" warning. One key benefit is that I can give the airplane to my dad fo
r his birthday, and as a "subsequent" owner, he can conduct E-LSA condit
ional inspections after going through a 16 hour course at EAA HQ and app
lying for/receiving an E-LSA repairman certificate from the FAA. I thin
k amateur builts can only be conditionally inspected by the original bui
lder and not subsequent owners. Since I am only 14, I could not apply f
or the repairman certificate on an amateur built anyhow.
I cannot thank all of you out there enough for all of your help over the
years. I asked most of you just one question or two, so as not to both
er you too much. As the WTTW segment points out, I could not have done
it without you!
N5886Q--the aeroplane the internet built! http://sabrina.aero
P.S. Zenith is OK with the name and my modifications. They lovingly cal
l it the XL SE (Sabrina Edition). (Back in early 2006, they were the o
nly kit mfg. open to idea of a 12 year old building their airplane.) Ze
========================
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====
_____________________________________________________________
Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4td6xZNCjuK2NvKUGRJ
9B5qcj0RB4J57G8ZGhBL8e0CvsiKG/
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Flanging |
Now that is improvising! 8)
--------
Kevin
N701DZ Reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163931#163931
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Once Again |
Scott,
Thanks for bringing us up to date with the FL flutter incident. I was wondering
what was discovered.
I found it interesting that the holes on the nylon bearings in the flaps were elongated.
When I built my flaps I was a little concerned that they were only
backed up by the thin material of the rib so I added a doubler made of 0.040
to the inside of the rib. Whether doing so was a good idea remains to be seen.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163937#163937
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll |
I'll be there Wednesday and Thursday.
Dan Dempsey
Do not archive
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163947#163947
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