---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/15/08: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - Re: SnF2008 (ZodieRocket) 2. 04:38 AM - Re: Re: SnF2008 (ZodieRocket) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 (Thomas Saniewski) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: Jabiru prices (pavel569) 5. 07:08 AM - Re: Jabiru prices (ashontz) 6. 07:13 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (ashontz) 7. 07:15 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (ashontz) 8. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (LarryMcFarland) 9. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Rudder cable tension (Mike Fothergill) 10. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (Larry H) 11. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: Exact measurement (Ron Lalonde) 12. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (LRM) 13. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Exact measurement (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 14. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Exact measurement (David Downey) 15. 09:06 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 09:21 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (ashontz) 17. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Hole Flanging (Randy L. Thwing) 18. 10:18 AM - Re: Hole Flanging (ashontz) 19. 10:51 AM - When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (PatrickW) 20. 11:35 AM - Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (Jaybannist@cs.com) 21. 12:12 PM - Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (Darrell Haas) 22. 12:50 PM - Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (Craig Payne) 23. 12:52 PM - Re: Jabiru prices (dalemed) 24. 12:55 PM - Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll (dalemed) 25. 01:03 PM - Re: Jabiru prices (jetboy) 26. 01:24 PM - Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (PatrickW) 27. 01:25 PM - Sun n Fun Zenith 701Sp Build () 28. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (Larry H) 29. 02:55 PM - Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) (John Smith) 30. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (LarryMcFarland) 31. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Exact measurement (LarryMcFarland) 32. 06:52 PM - Re: SnF2008 (Ron Lendon) 33. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (Larry H) 34. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru prices (LRM) 35. 08:34 PM - Paint program (Darrell Haas) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:41 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: SnF2008 Brad, I do not have you listed as signing up for the Sun-N-Fun BBQ yet. Please Add yourself and your dad so that I know your coming or at least intend to come to the BBQ Thursday evening. Sign up is here http://www.ch601.org/BBQ/bbq.htm For the rest, if your planning on a trip to Sun-N-Fun and you think you will be there in Thursday please sign up and come to the BBQ with the rest of us. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brad Cohen Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: SnF2008 Count me in. Will hopefully be bringing my Technical Advisor (AKA my dad.) He owns a Temco Swift, but y'all will still let him in to the BBQ, won't you? Brad Cohen 2/14/2008 6:35 PM 2/14/2008 6:35 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:01 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: SnF2008 Thanks Ron, I snorted my coffee through my nose with that one. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lendon Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: SnF2008 Yeah, just make sure you register him as an alien with the CdnGoose [Laughing] http://ch601.org/BBQ/bbq.htm do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164115#164115 2/14/2008 6:35 PM 2/14/2008 6:35 PM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:34 AM PST US From: Thomas Saniewski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices From: "pavel569" I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb wet, Multiport Fuel Injected Engine that is available (with RWS EC-2 control unit and Autoflight redrive unit) for a good price. Anybody has any experience with this engine/company? -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164184#164184 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices From: "ashontz" That seems to be the common thinking among boaters too, get a good new engine. Problem is, I see plenty of people broken down with new engines on the back of their boats. I think maintenance has a lot more to do with reliability. tjs22t(at)verizon.net wrote: > > > 115HP Geo/Suzuki conversion might save you $10,000, > > > > > > ...but > > Security of knowing you're flying behind an aircraft engine - PRICELESS. > > > do not archive -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164203#164203 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging From: "ashontz" Takes me about 60 seconds. I put one half of the die in the vise, put the rib in, put the other die on top, put the bolt through with the plate on one side, put the plate on the other side, put the nut on, tighten the nut by hand, then use a wrench the rest of the way. Last time I timed it (because I had to remake one with the form already finished), it took me about 80 minutes to make a wing center rib from flat sheet to fully finished rib with flanged holes. n4546v(at)mindspring.com wrote: > do not archive > > And, I didn't have to "juggle" any of the parts around. With your "nuts & > bolts & plates" how long does it take to get things positioned for each > press, especially one in the middle of a 12' wing spar web? > > > --- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164205#164205 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging From: "ashontz" As long as it works. I figured it was probably the die pinching something too much. do not archive Ron Lendon wrote: > Andy, > > The crowning I got in the rear ribs was all my fault for making the die clearance to small (I made em to close) and coining the parts in a press. It really was faster to just add the L-angles rather than all the hand work. The parts were flat before the flanging operation, and they are also flat now in the completed wing. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164206#164206 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:27 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices Hi Pavel, I have a Stratus, but have had my valve guides replaced with new exhaust valves by Ron at RAM Performance. Ron can be trusted to support your engine as his work is excellent. I've been fortunate to have had his advice on getting correct EGTs as well. Nice guy to deal with. He is very honest and an expert on the Subaru. Trust what he says. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com pavel569 wrote: > > I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb wet, Multiport Fuel Injected Engine that is available (with RWS EC-2 control unit and Autoflight redrive unit) for a good price. Anybody has any experience with this engine/company? > > -------- > Pavel > CA > Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:29 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder cable tension That is what I did. Still works great at 1200hrs. Mike CH-601HDS TD C-FRND chrisoz@bmail.com.au wrote: > > Hi Listers, > > In my 601 HD taildragger I had an open system with the rudder cables, i.e. > no nose gear struts. The pedals were connected at the front by a set of > springs to the firewall to keep them from falling backwards when no feet > are placed on them. Tension on the cables in flight solely through the > pressure of the feet on the pedals. The rudder was happy, no flutter, no > vibration, zip. How do other TD builders do this? > > Greetings from Oz, > Chris from Perth (just building my first nosewheel XL) > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:13 AM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices This is the first I've heard of this motor. My first question of you is, does it have a proven track record as far as reliability or are you going to be their "guinea pig? If it needs servicing, who will do it? What type of prices are they talk about for this unit? I'd be interested in knowing more.... I've personally looked into several of the "standards" of the industry - Rotax, Lycoming, Continental. I'd never would have considered the Subaru auto conversion because it would be more than I would want to get into and it requires a redrive. What I am doing is the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. They have data to back up what they do if you would want further proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen. Larry H Pavel569 wrote: I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb wet, Multiport Fuel Injected Engine that is available (with RWS EC-2 control unit and Autoflight redrive unit) for a good price. Anybody has any experience with this engine/company? -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164184#164184 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:01 AM PST US From: Ron Lalonde Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Exact measurement Hi Larry Everyone on the list seem to be talking about rib height, and there seems to be quite a concern. Is there any one point where the measurement could b e taken to measure this to be certain? I realize that the there can be no variance in the spar...but it is more or less a "solid" structure. (I am not quite at the point in the building process, but am curious to see what this fuss is all about!)_ Ron 601XL. Plan 6520 Debert, NS, Canada > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:05:45 -0600> From: larry@macsmachine.com> To: z enith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Exact measurement> > > Andy,> If your ribs are consistently 1mm under, they should be fine. It 's when > you have variance both ways> that might cause your wings to look uneven. And, if it's only one rib > or so, you can shim to even the> surfac e out. I'd get things clecoed and then decide if specific ribs > need level ing adjustments.> > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> do not a rchive> > > Jugle wrote:> > > >> The tightest tolerance is 0.5mm on wing ri b heights, everything else is 1 to 2 mm as I recall.> >>> >> Glenn.> >> > > > >> > I guess I should start over then. I think my ribs are about 1mm unde r.> >> > --------> > Andy Shontz> > CH601XL - Corvair> > www.mykitlog.com/a =======> > > _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:13 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices Actually Subarus were first built for aircraft use. There are thousands of Subaru conversions out there, many with direct drives. It is with the possible exception of the VW, the most proven auto conversion on the market. For the most part when done properly these conversions are bullet proof. LRM www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry H To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices This is the first I've heard of this motor. My first question of you is, does it have a proven track record as far as reliability or are you going to be their "guinea pig? If it needs servicing, who will do it? What type of prices are they talk about for this unit? I'd be interested in knowing more.... I've personally looked into several of the "standards" of the industry - Rotax, Lycoming, Continental. I'd never would have considered the Subaru auto conversion because it would be more than I would want to get into and it requires a redrive. What I am doing is the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. They have data to back up what they do if you would want further proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen. Larry H Pavel569 wrote: I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb wet, Multiport Fuel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- 2/13/2008 9:41 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:06 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Exact measurement Sorry for the typo, "+1/16 (.5mm)" should have been "1/64 (.5mm)" Jerry of Ga In a message dated 2/14/2008 8:28:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, planecrazydld@yahoo.com writes: 1/16" = 1.5 mm Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: The old 601HD Construction Manual Dated Jan 1995 "try to achieve an accuracy of +1/16" (.5mm) on spar and rib heights". Then under "Outboard wing panels" it states "the ribs which have been made to fit the center section spar height are slightly too large for the outboard spar: simply hammer lightly the upper and lower rib flange down until they fit the spar." Looks to me like they are not too tight on tolerance except height which can be lightly hammer to fit. Jerry of Ga. In a message dated 2/14/2008 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:37 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Exact measurement 1/64" = 0.015625" = 0.396875 mm = 0.4 mm Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: Sorry for the typo, "+1/16 (.5mm)" should have been "1/64 (.5mm)" Jerry of Ga In a message dated 2/14/2008 8:28:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, planecrazydld@yahoo.com writes: 1/16" = 1.5 mm Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: The old 601HD Construction Manual Dated Jan 1995 "try to achieve an accuracy of +1/16" (.5mm) on spar and rib heights". Then under "Outboard wing panels" it states "the ribs which have been made to fit the center section spar height are slightly too large for the outboard spar: simply hammer lightly the upper and lower rib flange down until they fit the spar." Looks to me like they are not too tight on tolerance except height which can be lightly hammer to fit. Jerry of Ga. In a message dated 2/14/2008 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: --------------------------------- The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:06 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hole Flanging Hi guys, The bowing of the ribs when using flanging dies is a characteristic of metal bending rather than a fault with the dies. It is called "Spring Back" and happens whenever metal is bent. The spring back makes the web bow because it happens all the way around the bent circle. It can easily be removed with a slotted stick by bending the flange a little bit further than its final position after going through the flanging die. You don't need to add "L" reinforcements to straighten the rib webs. A similar phenomenon happens when bending the flanges around the edge of the ribs that makes them bow the rib web and have a less than 90 degree angle to the web. This can be fixed with the fore-mentioned slotted stick or a small "Seaming" tool - a set of pliers with somewhat fatter jaws. You can also use the pronged fluting tool provided with Zenith kits for this purpose. I don't know what the impact of adding "L"s to the ribs might be. It probably is OK so long as you don't mind the small weight addition. Have fun, Paul XL fuselage At 07:08 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: >William, I used the flanging dies made of wood and I experienced the >same problem as you did. >The rib webs were bowed. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging From: "ashontz" I really haven't seen any bowing on my ribs. Theoretically, the flange part of the hole should get stretched slightly and the skin should get thinner, more so as you move more towards the hole part of the flange. If the skin doesn't get stretched enough to accommodate the larger diamter the flange edge is being pressed into in the die as the flange is formed, the rest of the rib will need to bow to accommodate it's new form. Measuring my rib hole flanges, at the very edge of the flange the skin is only about .021 whereas it started out as .025. psm(at)ATT.NET wrote: > Hi guys, > > The bowing of the ribs when using flanging dies is a characteristic > of metal bending rather than a fault with the dies. It is called > "Spring Back" and happens whenever metal is bent. > > The spring back makes the web bow because it happens all the way > around the bent circle. It can easily be removed with a slotted > stick by bending the flange a little bit further than its final > position after going through the flanging die. You don't need to add > "L" reinforcements to straighten the rib webs. > > A similar phenomenon happens when bending the flanges around the edge > of the ribs that makes them bow the rib web and have a less than 90 > degree angle to the web. This can be fixed with the fore-mentioned > slotted stick or a small "Seaming" tool - a set of pliers with > somewhat fatter jaws. You can also use the pronged fluting tool > provided with Zenith kits for this purpose. > > I don't know what the impact of adding "L"s to the ribs might be. It > probably is OK so long as you don't mind the small weight addition. > > Have fun, > > Paul > XL fuselage > > > At 07:08 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: > > > William, I used the flanging dies made of wood and I experienced the > > same problem as you did. > > The rib webs were bowed. > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164240#164240 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:43 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging do not archive Sounds like a good, workmanlike system to flange holes in ribs & short parts, but you didn't answer my question you yourself quoted below: How long does it take to stage things to do a hole in the center of a 12' wing spar web? Is your vise on a workbench? What supports must you organize to support wing spar material you are flanging 6' on each side of your vise? Best Regards, Randy, Las Vegas Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging > > Takes me about 60 seconds. I put one half of the die in the vise, put the rib in, put the other die on top, put the bolt through with the plate on one side, put the plate on the other side, put the nut on, tighten the nut by hand, then use a wrench the rest of the way. > > Last time I timed it (because I had to remake one with the form already finished), it took me about 80 minutes to make a wing center rib from flat sheet to fully finished rib with flanged holes. > > > n4546v(at)mindspring.com wrote: > > do not archive > > > > And, I didn't have to "juggle" any of the parts around. With your "nuts & > > bolts & plates" how long does it take to get things positioned for each > > press, especially one in the middle of a 12' wing spar web? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hole Flanging From: "ashontz" Oh, spar hole. 5 minutes longer. I think I zipped my toolbox around one side and my table saw on the other side and then propped as needed. Yes, my vise is on my workbench. If I had to use the thing freehand for some reason, I don't see that being a problem either. n4546v(at)mindspring.com wrote: > do not archive > > Sounds like a good, workmanlike system to flange holes in ribs & short > parts, but you didn't answer my question you yourself quoted below: How > long does it take to stage things to do a hole in the center of a 12' wing > spar web? > > Is your vise on a workbench? What supports must you organize to support > wing spar material you are flanging 6' on each side of your vise? > > Best Regards, > > Randy, Las Vegas > > > > Subject: Re: Hole Flanging > > > > > > > > > Takes me about 60 seconds. I put one half of the die in the vise, put the > > rib in, put the other die on top, put the bolt through with the plate on one > > > > side, put the plate on the other side, put the nut on, tighten the nut by > hand, then use a wrench the rest of the way. > > > > > Last time I timed it (because I had to remake one with the form already > > finished), it took me about 80 minutes to make a wing center rib from flat > > > > sheet to fully finished rib with flanged holes. > > > > > > > n4546v(at)mindspring.com wrote: > > > do not archive > > > > > > And, I didn't have to "juggle" any of the parts around. With your "nuts > > & > > > > > > > bolts & plates" how long does it take to get things positioned for each > > > press, especially one in the middle of a 12' wing spar web? > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164254#164254 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) From: "PatrickW" I am at 6-B-11b in the photo guide, where they recommend putting the fuselage on sawhorses. Looking thorough the archives, it appears that it is ok to rivet the cabin floor & rudder pedal area at this time. But what about riveting the wing center section to the cabin floor? Any reason not to do that at this time as well...? Running out of clecos and looking for a sanity check. Apologies if there is guidance that I missed someplace. Thanks, Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164262#164262 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:09 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) Patrick, That depends on whether you have the dual sticks option. If you do, you will want to have the center section out of the airplane and on a bench to attach the stick brackets. You will have to make up a open-end wrench extension of some kind, with a small bit of duct tape to hold the nut, to insert between the plates of the center section. The top nuts (in the wrench extension) must be inserted from the end of the center section; but the bottom ones can be accessed through the bottom of the center section if it is not attached to the airplane. If you have the "Y" center stick, rivet away. Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" "PatrickW" wrote: > >I am at 6-B-11b in the photo guide, where they recommend putting the fuselage on sawhorses. > >Looking thorough the archives, it appears that it is ok to rivet the cabin floor & rudder pedal area at this time. > >But what about riveting the wing center section to the cabin floor? Any reason not to do that at this time as well...? > >Running out of clecos and looking for a sanity check. Apologies if there is guidance that I missed someplace. > >Thanks, > >Patrick >XL/Corvair > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164262#164262 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:24 PM PST US From: "Darrell Haas" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) Don't feel bad. I have a thousand holes drilled and I'm scared to rivet any of them. Darrell 601 XL N723DD reserved On 2/15/08, PatrickW wrote: > > I am at 6-B-11b in the photo guide, where they recommend putting the fuselage on sawhorses. > > Looking thorough the archives, it appears that it is ok to rivet the cabin floor & rudder pedal area at this time. > > But what about riveting the wing center section to the cabin floor? Any reason not to do that at this time as well...? > > Running out of clecos and looking for a sanity check. Apologies if there is guidance that I missed someplace. > > Thanks, > > Patrick > XL/Corvair > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164262#164262 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:34 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) Those clecos sure produce a lot of drag when flying. -- Craig Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Haas Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) Don't feel bad. I have a thousand holes drilled and I'm scared to rivet any of them. Darrell 601 XL N723DD reserved On 2/15/08, PatrickW wrote: > > I am at 6-B-11b in the photo guide, where they recommend putting the fuselage on sawhorses. > > Looking thorough the archives, it appears that it is ok to rivet the cabin floor & rudder pedal area at this time. > > But what about riveting the wing center section to the cabin floor? Any reason not to do that at this time as well...? > > Running out of clecos and looking for a sanity check. Apologies if there is guidance that I missed someplace. > > Thanks, > > Patrick > XL/Corvair > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164262#164262 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices From: "dalemed" skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > .... What I am doing is the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. They have data to back up what they do if you would want further proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen. > What wet weight are people seeing with the Corvair? I like the idea of building an engine, but I want to keep the weight down. -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164286#164286 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Going to SnF 2008? poll From: "dalemed" My wife and I will be there! -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164287#164287 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices From: "jetboy" Thats an old myth often told by Subaru dealerships in the 70's. My book on light aircraft has a page on the Fuji FA-200 Aero Subaru: "The FA-200 Aero Subaru was the first light aircraft fully designed by Fuji....." Engines used were Lycoming 0-320 and 0-360. I used to believe the myth myself as it seemed to make sense, until I discovered the use of Lycomings. I'd be delighted to stand corrected. The Subaru flat fours however do make a good aero engine conversion provided the ignition and cooling system are made reliable. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164291#164291 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) From: "PatrickW" I'm building the Y-stick. Thanks, - Pat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164292#164292 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:30 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Sun n Fun Zenith 701Sp Build Hey Zenith Listers, do not archive A couple of weeks ago I posted an email to you requesting that you consider helping with our building a Zenith 701 in the basic Sheet Metal Workshop at Sun N Fun 2008. We have had 10 of you volunteer to help us thus far - thanks guys. Also, I've noticed several of you have answered the "poll" about who will attend SnF this year. So if you are going to be there anyway, I"m asking you to consider joining us in this worthy project while you're there. Also make sure you sign up with Mark for the Zenith Builders BarBQue. We hold it at my campsite! I'm the Co-Chairman of the workshop. Our regular activitiy, using volunteers only, is to teach the basics of sheet metal work, focusing primarily on drilling, deburring and riveting. We do answer specific questions when necessary. This year, one of our volunteers has purchased a 701 kit which will when completed be given to a Missionary Group. The airplane will belong to a non-profit corp until complete which we plan for SnF 2009. Our plan this year is to use experienced zenith builders ( no Zenith Factory folks will be involved ) as guides/supervisors at each of the 701 work stations. All we ask is a couple of hours for a couple of days. Hey, even if you don't commit before the event, drop in and visit with us in the Basic Sheet Metal Workshop. I'll bet you won't be able to resist getting involved. Well at least stop by to say HI! Jim Hoak at: planejim@bellsouth.net ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:47 PM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices According to WW, the data is showing the engine weights coming in at 225-230 pounds. Thats with an alternator and electric start. You can find out a lot by going to www.flycorvair.com WW is William Wynne. He is located in northern Florida but his engines are all over the world. Hope this helps you and good luck making that decision. I'm hooked on the Corvair myself. LH dalemed wrote: skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > .... What I am doing is the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. They have data to back up what they do if you would want further proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen. > What wet weight are people seeing with the Corvair? I like the idea of building an engine, but I want to keep the weight down. -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164286#164286 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:27 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet Center Spar to Cabin Floor (601XL) I riveted the wing center section to cabin floor as soon as I riveted the cabin, but be sure not to rivet at the very least the last two outboard holes on the center section as gussets will later be installed between the floor and center section. I chose to delay installing the rudder pedals to keep the center section clear. I am at 6-B-11b in the photo guide, where they recommend putting the fuselage on sawhorses. Looking thorough the archives, it appears that it is ok to rivet the cabin floor & rudder pedal area at this time. But what about riveting the wing center section to the cabin floor? Any reason not to do that at this time as well...? Running out of clecos and looking for a sanity check. Apologies if there is guidance that I missed someplace. Thanks, Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164262#164262 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:56 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices Hi Larry, Subaru has been around for a long time. Several hundreds of gyros have flown for years with the Subaru. It was initially designed to be an aircraft engine, but in the 70s, the aircraft industry tanked and the Subaru came alive as an automotive conversion for the road. It is an extremely durable engine that's become popular because of its ability to use 87-octane or 100LL without complication. It's a quiet engine as water cooled engine are and it's 3.5 to 4.5 gal/hr and inexpensive parts make it a favorite to overhaul. The idea of re-drives isn't new either as the Merlin, Allison and more than a few aircraft engines have them. I prefer belted as they're more easily inspected and less costly to maintain. Rotax has had its share of redrive problems being gear drive types. The Corvair engine is also a great engine if you require 6 cylinders and comparable expense, but both require some knowledge acquired by the owner and maintainer. On the basis of knowing both Ron Carr at Ram and WW's Corvairs, it's indeed a toss up and you pick up the same level of involvement in installation etc. Both very good engines. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Larry H wrote: > */This is the first I've heard of this motor. My first question of > you is, does it have a proven track record as far as reliability or > are you going to be their "guinea pig? If it needs servicing, who > will do it? What type of prices are they talk about for this unit? > I'd be interested in knowing more..../* > *//* > */I've personally looked into several of the "standards" of the > industry - Rotax, Lycoming, Continental. I'd never would have > considered the Subaru auto conversion because it would be more than I > would want to get into and it requires a redrive. What I am doing is > the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the > cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the > Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It > would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. > There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more > than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. > These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. > They have data to back up what they do if you would want further > proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be > more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen./* > *//* > */Larry H/* > > */Pavel569 /* wrote: > > > I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM > Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb > wet, Multiport Fuel > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:22 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Exact measurement Hi Ron, The developed max vertical ordinate for the ribs is probably it. I'd like to think that consistency in dimension is the real issue. Harder for a taper wing, to be sure, but if you have taken reasonable means to stay close to the required dimensions, you're going to be o.k. Often, people get overworked about small details like this and become obsessive about getting it exactly right. Few ever achieve exactly this and so it's best to read the guidelines from Zenith in accomplishing the task and memorizing the fundamental and basic methods for holding the rib dimensions. They can be adjusted and if necessary, shimmed. I have several shims on the top inboard ribs that were finely tapered and riveted in with the wing skin and rib flanges that leveled the surfaces. Even with perfect ribs, you have to jig them for accurate match up with the spar and it only takes time. Keep a straightedge nearby to check things as you get the wings clecoed and by that time you'll certainly know what to do. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewwingrivets.jpg Best regards, Larry McFarland Ron Lalonde wrote: > Hi Larry > Everyone on the list seem to be talking about rib height, and there > seems to be quite a concern. Is there any one point where the > measurement could be taken to measure this to be certain? > I realize that the there can be no variance in the spar...but it is > more or less a "solid" structure. > > (I am not quite at the point in the building process, but am curious > to see what this fuss is all about!)_ > > Ron > 601XL. Plan 6520 > Debert, NS, Canada > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: SnF2008 From: "Ron Lendon" It's gonna be another fun one. do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164356#164356 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:38 PM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices Thanks for the info on the Subaru. I'm new to homebuilding so I know very little about it. I have been renting an aircraft (while I'm training) and it has a Rotax in it. Its a strong little motor but it is a high rpm engine with a redrive on it. I just heard that Rotax just announced another recall on their redrives. Supposedly, it will not cost the owner a dime - just the downtime on the plane. If I hadn't already started with my Corvair Conversion, I would have seriously looked into the Subaru. Of course not knowing anything about them, I would be leary. I'm probably not going to stop building after I finish my 601XL. My wife even comments on how well I know metal and how nice the component kits are turning out. Dumb luck I told her. LOL. I just take my time with it is all. I never try to rush. Its quality and not quantity. She told me she wouldn't be surprised if I decided to build another plane after I finishe this one.......or two.....or three. My next plane I will definately look more closely at the Subaru. The Corvair engine has been experiencing a few breaking crankshafts. WW has been studying them and has just announced all the cranks should be nitrited now. That will work great for me since I just found my two core engines and have torn the one down, getting it ready to send out to Moldex. Thanks again for the information. I appreciate it! Larry Hursh LarryMcFarland wrote: Hi Larry, Subaru has been around for a long time. Several hundreds of gyros have flown for years with the Subaru. It was initially designed to be an aircraft engine, but in the 70s, the aircraft industry tanked and the Subaru came alive as an automotive conversion for the road. It is an extremely durable engine that's become popular because of its ability to use 87-octane or 100LL without complication. It's a quiet engine as water cooled engine are and it's 3.5 to 4.5 gal/hr and inexpensive parts make it a favorite to overhaul. The idea of re-drives isn't new either as the Merlin, Allison and more than a few aircraft engines have them. I prefer belted as they're more easily inspected and less costly to maintain. Rotax has had its share of redrive problems being gear drive types. The Corvair engine is also a great engine if you require 6 cylinders and comparable expense, but both require some knowledge acquired by the owner and maintainer. On the basis of knowing both Ron Carr at Ram and WW's Corvairs, it's indeed a toss up and you pick up the same level of involvement in installation etc. Both very good engines. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Larry H wrote: > */This is the first I've heard of this motor. My first question of > you is, does it have a proven track record as far as reliability or > are you going to be their "guinea pig? If it needs servicing, who > will do it? What type of prices are they talk about for this unit? > I'd be interested in knowing more..../* > *//* > */I've personally looked into several of the "standards" of the > industry - Rotax, Lycoming, Continental. I'd never would have > considered the Subaru auto conversion because it would be more than I > would want to get into and it requires a redrive. What I am doing is > the Corvair conversion. I roughly figured I'll have less than 1/3 the > cost of a new motor if I was to put every available option in the > Corvair and then I would have a motor that I can service myself. It > would be brand new. It would be something else for you to consider. > There are several people around that rebuild them and would be more > than happy to build one for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. > These people are reputable and have been doing this for a long time. > They have data to back up what they do if you would want further > proof. If your interested, send me an offline message and I will be > more than happy to get you in touch with these fine gentlemen./* > *//* > */Larry H/* > > */Pavel569 /* wrote: > > > I'm still looking for a alternative to 3300. I've found a RAM > Performance, Ltd - they are selling Modified Subaru 115HP, 186lb > wet, Multiport Fuel > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:18 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices You stand corrected. The history of Subaru arguably begins in 1917 with the Aircraft Research Laboratory. The ARL was founded by Chikuhei Nakajima, a former member of the Japanese navy who had become entranced by early 20th century aircraft. Sometime before World War II, the ARL became Nakajima Aircraft Co., Ltd. and began producing aircraft for the Japanese armed forces. One of its more memorable contributions to war was in production of engines for the famed Zero fighter. LRM, www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jetboy" Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:01 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru prices > > Thats an old myth often told by Subaru dealerships in the 70's. > > My book on light aircraft has a page on the Fuji FA-200 Aero Subaru: > > "The FA-200 Aero Subaru was the first light aircraft fully designed by > Fuji....." > > Engines used were Lycoming 0-320 and 0-360. > > I used to believe the myth myself as it seemed to make sense, until I > discovered the use of Lycomings. I'd be delighted to stand corrected. > The Subaru flat fours however do make a good aero engine conversion > provided the ignition and cooling system are made reliable. > > Ralph > > -------- > Ralph - CH701 / 2200a > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164291#164291 > > > -- > 9:00 AM > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:39 PM PST US From: "Darrell Haas" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint program Has anyone designed a computer program using a picture of a 601XL where you can try different colors and designs to help you decide what colors and /or designs you might want on your plane? It would be fun on those stormy nights to try different color combinations before I actually have to make a decision on what to use. Darrell Haas 601XL N723DD reserved ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.