Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:03 AM - Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) (MaxNr@aol.com)
2. 01:38 AM - Re: 601 incident (Iberplanes IGL)
3. 03:50 AM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (David Downey)
4. 05:05 AM - Re: Intrument Panel Trim (Jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 05:23 AM - Re: 601 incident (Art Gibeaut)
6. 05:23 AM - Re: 601 incident (ernie)
7. 05:30 AM - Re: 601 incident (dfmoeller)
8. 05:34 AM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (dfmoeller)
9. 05:41 AM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (ashontz)
10. 05:58 AM - Flutter Analysis (Scott Thatcher)
11. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Jay Maynard)
12. 06:09 AM - E-LSA registration for non-O-200 601XLs? (Jay Maynard)
13. 06:32 AM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (sdthatcher)
14. 06:32 AM - Re: 601 incident (William Dominguez)
15. 06:49 AM - Re: E-LSA registration for non-O-200 601XLs? (Gig Giacona)
16. 07:07 AM - Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) (Gig Giacona)
17. 07:29 AM - Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) (cookwithgas)
18. 07:32 AM - Sun-N-Fun (ZodieRocket)
19. 07:42 AM - Re: Intrument Panel Trim (cookwithgas)
20. 08:14 AM - Re: 601 incident (Flydog1966@aol.com)
21. 08:44 AM - Re: 601 incident (n85ae)
22. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Accident (japhillipsga@aol.com)
23. 10:39 AM - accident - slanted spar question (Joe Scheibinger)
24. 10:48 AM - I'm in (DAVID MILLER)
25. 11:01 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (ashontz)
26. 11:09 AM - Re: XL - success stories (ROBERT SCEPPA)
27. 11:20 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (Gig Giacona)
28. 11:25 AM - Re: 601 incident (Iberplanes IGL)
29. 11:25 AM - Armchair Engineer (ashontz)
30. 11:28 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (ashontz)
31. 11:33 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (n85ae)
32. 11:39 AM - Re: 601 incident (n85ae)
33. 11:40 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (Gig Giacona)
34. 11:52 AM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (ashontz)
35. 11:56 AM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Trainnut01@aol.com)
36. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: 601 incident (Iberplanes IGL)
37. 12:08 PM - Re: 601 incident (Jaybannist@cs.com)
38. 12:09 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (ashontz)
39. 12:10 PM - Re: 601 incident (Darrell Haas)
40. 12:10 PM - Re: 601 incident (Randall J. Hebert)
41. 12:26 PM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (David Downey)
42. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Bill Steer)
43. 12:44 PM - Re: Accident (John Reinking)
44. 12:44 PM - Re: 601 incident (William Dominguez)
45. 12:45 PM - Re: 601 incident (hansriet)
46. 12:47 PM - Re: 601 incident (Cory Emberson)
47. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Accident (Paul Mulwitz)
48. 01:02 PM - Re: Armchair Engineer (ernie)
49. 01:39 PM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (Gig Giacona)
50. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Kevin L. Rupert)
51. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Steve Shuck)
52. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Accident (Paul Mulwitz)
53. 02:27 PM - Re:accident - slanted spar question (MaxNr@aol.com)
54. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Larry Winger)
55. 03:03 PM - Re: accident - slanted spar question (Gig Giacona)
56. 03:05 PM - Re: Accident (Gig Giacona)
57. 03:15 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (hansriet)
58. 03:25 PM - Slanted Spar and "mini spar" (Doug Sire)
59. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Accident (David Downey)
60. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Southern Reflections)
61. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Accident (Craig Payne)
62. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Accident (ZodieRocket)
63. 05:49 PM - Accidents (Jaybannist@cs.com)
64. 06:14 PM - Re: Intrument Panel Trim (leinad)
65. 06:25 PM - Re: 601 incident (Juan Vega)
66. 06:28 PM - XL Stress Analysis (Murray Randall)
67. 06:35 PM - Re: Zenith instrument panel trim (leinad)
68. 06:35 PM - Re: Accidents (John Short)
69. 07:01 PM - Manual trim (kmccune)
70. 07:05 PM - Instrument panel Design Stencils for Microsoft Visio (Dave Thompson)
71. 07:14 PM - Ye Olde Continental (Tommy Walker)
72. 07:15 PM - Re: Manual trim (Craig Payne)
73. 07:45 PM - Re: Manual trim (kmccune)
74. 07:45 PM - Re: Ye Olde Continental (NYTerminat@aol.com)
75. 08:16 PM - Re: Accidents (Gig Giacona)
76. 08:16 PM - Re: Ye Olde Continental (MHerder)
77. 08:55 PM - Re: Accidents (MHerder)
78. 09:00 PM - Re: Manual trim (Southern Reflections)
79. 10:55 PM - Re: Re: Accidents (xl)
80. 11:11 PM - Re: Accidents (Terry Phillips)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) |
Don't tell me that ZAC has to get more sand bags and sacrifice yet another
airframe. It would help if the FAA or somebody provided more detail about these
accidents. (Juan reported a week ago that inadequate wing attach bolts were
installed in one instance.) Some suspect that poor pilot technique is a factor.
Isn't it uncomfortable to be a passenger while some oaf is abusing the
controls? If I fly with one of these guys, I'll sure sound off. Some suspect that
heavy or light engines put the operating CG out of whack and causes a lack of
harmony in the controls. If you're near a limit, you just might need to also
compute the landing CG too. Just fix your CG problem with ballast and move on.
Yes, bird strikes hurt. I've had a few. Seen many more. A friend took an osprey
through the wind shield that broke his collar bone and stunned him. He
recovered at 300' and was able to land OK. The fed F&W guy could only express remorse
over the late endangered bird. I think it was the same bird that attacked me
months earlier when I entered his territory. I evaded. Does anybody really know
how many G's they put on their plane? I am reserving panel space for a
military recording accelerometer (G meter) that I happen to have. A small fish
scale
would also work. I'll do without the LRI or AOA. Turbulence can put some G's
on an airframe. But nothing like what you get if you loose it in inadvertent
IMC.(You DO know that the failure mode breaks the wings DOWNWARD don't you?)
Maneuvers put on smaller loads than you think. A 100 HP plane with wing loading
less than 10lbs per sq ft will pull about 2 G in a loop, all positive G. A
barrel roll is less, still all positive. Have someone show you how before doing
these. A 601 aint a Pitts Special and I aint Sean Tucker. A level, 60 deg
banked turn will also be at 2 G and you can hold that 2 G till you run out of gas.
Thus the level turn will stress more. The builders web site at
http://www.ch601.org/ in the builders resource area mentions that changes to the 601XL plans
suggest some increased sheet thickness. I didn't get the memo on the plans
change and have not yet dug into the layouts. Anybody get the change? Fly safe
and don't be afraid.
Bob Dingley
Pace,FL
XL/Lyc ( At the homebuilders equivalent stage of rearranging my sock drawer)
**************
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance.
(http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Well, as I expected. The accident in Barcelona Spain was and will not be
taken into account. I have the impression, to be polite, that America only
cares for themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK,
Canada, Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a
great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for
centuries...............
..... The other day one on the list asked me why I did not post the accident
when it happened, I was about to answer, but I prefered to say nothing. On
a private reply, I told him that I had the impression that my post were
totally ignored. Well. now I have confirmed that fact.
If the Aussie crash was bird-related, the problem is solved, no worries for
the factory, but the spanish accident still stands, and it was totally
different. as far as i know it was not vne related, they were rumors, not
engine failue as said on the news, it was a wing fold. Still waiting the
DGAC report.
Thanks anyway and enjoy your XL.
PS: If you think my post is to direct, and unpolite, just think how do I
feel when nobody says a word or comments on my posts......what would you
think?
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Since I am no longer building at this time, I was nto planning to chip in. However,
depending on the cost split I may do so as well simply for the clearing of
the air that would result.
do not archive
No offense Dave (Downey), but this is one guy I've been looking forward to hearing
a 'Aye' from.
Scott, hope to meet you one day at an Oshkosk or something. I have a trim tab servo
you might be interested in too. :)
cookwithgas wrote:
> _____*Scott Laughlin
> ______*Omaha, Nebraska
> _______*6 0 1 X L / Corvair
> ________* Plans-Built (3/4" thk. Longerons)
> _________*Used lots of Green Scotchbrite
> __________*Finished & Flying Straight and True.
> ___________*48+ hours of flight - Permanent Grin.
> ____________* BRS safety pin removed.
> _____________*Wings still attached.
> _____________*I'm In.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169444#169444
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Intrument Panel Trim |
I used a plastic trim piece made for this purpose from Zenith. I don't remember
the part number, but I think it was originally supplied with 801 kits.
Jay in Dallas
"Gary Ray" <davgray@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>I used chrome colored plastic edge guard with self adhesive from the local
>auto supply house.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "leinad" <leinad@hughes.net>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:44 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Intrument Panel Trim
>
>
>>
>> Could someone suggest a good method for trimming the edge at the top of
>the instrument panel (glare shield)? I can't find any information in the
>plans other than the pictures in the canopy section of the photo guide. It
>looks like Zenith is using rubber hose to trim theirs. I can't tell how
>it's attached.
>> I've considered a number of ideas, from splitting a piece of aluminum
>tubing pre-bent to the shape of the panel, to using a wood.
>> Are their safety concerns to be aware of? Some of my switches and
>instruments get pretty close to the edge. The top skin sticks out per the
>plans, (I think it's about 3/4").
>> Dan Dempsey
>> (plans building 601XL)
>>
>> --------
>> Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169450#169450
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>1:27 PM
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Thanks for the perspective. I'm sure that the cause of the Barcelona accident is
just as important to all the 601 builders as the Aussie accident was. Please
pass on any additional info as it becomes available. As far as the board ignoring
your posts, it has nothing to do with country of origin. They ignore me too,
and I'm right smack dab in the middle of the US. These guys are good people
passing on much needed help and information, and I don't think anyone means
to snub anyone. We're all a bunch of "gear heads" with our minds focused on the
airplane and sometimes we forget our manners. Though I don't often post here,
I have come to rely on these guy's insights and experiences, as I make my way
through my 701. I admire people that are willing to openly admit and share their
mistakes so that I don't make the same mistake. Looking forward to hearing
from you.
--- On Thu, 3/13/08, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, March 13, 2008, 3:32 AM
> Well, as I expected. The accident in Barcelona Spain was and
> will not be
> taken into account. I have the impression, to be polite,
> that America only
> cares for themselves, sorry, themselves and their
> friends-cousins, UK,
> Canada, Australia...
>
> Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th
> world largest
> economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the
> A380 parts,
> Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon
> people...had a
> great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the
> list may go on for
> centuries...............
>
>
> ..... The other day one on the list asked me why I did not
> post the accident
> when it happened, I was about to answer, but I prefered to
> say nothing. On
> a private reply, I told him that I had the impression that
> my post were
> totally ignored. Well. now I have confirmed that fact.
>
> If the Aussie crash was bird-related, the problem is
> solved, no worries for
> the factory, but the spanish accident still stands, and it
> was totally
> different. as far as i know it was not vne related, they
> were rumors, not
> engine failue as said on the news, it was a wing fold.
> Still waiting the
> DGAC report.
>
> Thanks anyway and enjoy your XL.
>
> PS: If you think my post is to direct, and unpolite, just
> think how do I
> feel when nobody says a word or comments on my
> posts......what would you
> think?
>
> >
> >
> >
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Please keep us up to date when you get information.
I for one am interested, I cant speak for anyone else.
Right now we have a newspaper article to go by. This information is not
enough to make anything but
random speculation. Most of the time important details are not in the print
article.
Do not archive.
e.
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Well, as I expected. The accident in Barcelona Spain was and will not be
> taken into account. I have the impression, to be polite, that America only
> cares for themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK,
> Canada, Australia...
>
> Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
> economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
> Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a
> great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for
> centuries...............
>
>
> ..... The other day one on the list asked me why I did not post the
> accident when it happened, I was about to answer, but I prefered to say
> nothing. On a private reply, I told him that I had the impression that my
> post were totally ignored. Well. now I have confirmed that fact.
>
> If the Aussie crash was bird-related, the problem is solved, no worries
> for the factory, but the spanish accident still stands, and it was totally
> different. as far as i know it was not vne related, they were rumors, not
> engine failue as said on the news, it was a wing fold. Still waiting the
> DGAC report.
>
> Thanks anyway and enjoy your XL.
>
> PS: If you think my post is to direct, and unpolite, just think how do I
> feel when nobody says a word or comments on my posts......what would you
> think?
>
>
> >
> >
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
I was actually more interested in the Spanish incident than the Australian. If
the Australian, in fact, eventually is attributed to bird strike, thats kind
of a non-issue. The Spanish event seems less dismissable.
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169527#169527
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I'm in.
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169529#169529
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
That's 20 so far.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169531#169531
Message 10
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| Subject: | Flutter Analysis |
I'm in.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I'm in.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
Message 12
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| Subject: | E-LSA registration for non-O-200 601XLs? |
(New thread; this has nothing directly to do with the structural study.)
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 08:54:48AM -0400, Scott Thatcher wrote:
> Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
> N601EL
Not to pick on you personally, Scott; your signature got me to wondering...
I thought an E-LSA needed to be identical to a factory-built SLSA aside from
the builder. Is this not so? If it is so, how does one register a Zodiac XL
with anything but an O-200 as an E-LSA?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I'm in
--------
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169544#169544
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Your post have not been ignore, at least not by me and many others. On the contrary,
notice that after your first post about this incident, this topic have slowly
exploded with postings. I even searched in Yahoo Spain and posted some of
my findings and even translated one news.
Having say that, every now and them we all have postings that are ignored, specially
when they are comments and not specific question. Don't get discourage and
keep posting, me and many others will be waiting for news about the Barcelona
incident.
In another note, my wife is Spanish and I have been in Spain multiple times. I
would like to retire there but I'm still far from retirement age. I would like
to see your plane next time I visit, hopefully next year. Likewise, if you see
yourself in Miami any time, send me an email in advance and I'll show you my
project and give you a tour of the city.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote: Well, as I expected. The accident
in Barcelona Spain was and will not be taken into account. I have the impression,
to be polite, that America only cares for themselves, sorry, themselves and
their friends-cousins, UK, Canada, Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest economy.....has
a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts, Eurofighter, EADS,
etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a great world empire,
has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for centuries...............
..... The other day one on the list asked me why I did not post the accident when
it happened, I was about to answer, but I prefered to say nothing. On a private
reply, I told him that I had the impression that my post were totally ignored.
Well. now I have confirmed that fact.
If the Aussie crash was bird-related, the problem is solved, no worries for the
factory, but the spanish accident still stands, and it was totally different.
as far as i know it was not vne related, they were rumors, not engine failue
as said on the news, it was a wing fold. Still waiting the DGAC report.
Thanks anyway and enjoy your XL.
PS: If you think my post is to direct, and unpolite, just think how do I feel when
nobody says a word or comments on my posts......what would you think?
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: E-LSA registration for non-O-200 601XLs? |
Actually there isn't an E-LSA kit for the 601XL at this time. Scott's was certified
under the "fat ultralight" exemption that ended 1/31/08.
The lack of an S-LSA produced by Zenith and not AMD is the reason for this.
jmaynard wrote:
> (New thread; this has nothing directly to do with the structural study.)
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 08:54:48AM -0400, Scott Thatcher wrote:
>
> > Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
> > 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
> > N601EL
> >
> >
>
> Not to pick on you personally, Scott; your signature got me to wondering...
>
> I thought an E-LSA needed to be identical to a factory-built SLSA aside from
> the builder. Is this not so? If it is so, how does one register a Zodiac XL
> with anything but an O-200 as an E-LSA?
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169549#169549
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) |
Maneuvers performed correctly...
Screw one up and the Gs can go just about anywhere.
MaxNr(at)aol.com wrote:
> Maneuvers put on smaller loads than you think.
>
> Bob Dingley
> Pace,FL
> XL/Lyc ( At the homebuilders equivalent stage of rearranging my sock drawer)
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169552#169552
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| Subject: | Re: British 601Crash (was: 601 Crash) |
Bob:
The sheet change as far as I know was the rear fuselage sides from .016 to .025"
which seems significant. I changed mine from .016 to .020" prior to the change
on the good advice of Larry McFarland. My control surfaces are still .016"
which is still in the plans I believe. My plans are from late 2002 and early
2003. I was following all of the updates while building.
Another significant change is that plans builders generally use 1/8" angle for
the longerons instead of the .093" supplied with the kits.
Also, some of us plans-builders are using a full-length bottom longeron instead
of splicing since the 1/8" angle comes in 25' lengths. I just used a full length
of the 1/8" on both sides of the bottom of the fuselage instead of using
.040" in the rear, .093" in the front and splicing as shown on 6-B-2.
Does that make sense? Here's a picture of my two lovely assistance holding my
bottom fuselage with no splices in the longerons.
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_13_04_BellyFinished.JPG
Point is - there are many different methods used in the construction of these home-built,
experimental airplanes.
Scott Laughlin
Omaha, Nebraska
Finished & Flying
www.cooknwithgas.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169562#169562
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Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08
Thursday April 10th 2008
5pm - 8pm in the Campground
Jabiru USA <http://www.usjabiru.com/> , Flightcrafters
<http://www.zenithdistributing.com/> , AirFox and Sensornetics
<http://www.sensornetics.com/> have all offered sponsorship for this
years event. Cummins Spinners <http://www.cumminsspinners.com/> and
Homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> have donated prizes
for this years draw. Zenith Aircraft and Can-Zac Aviation have also
donated for a special gift to the first 90 builders that arrive at the
Sun-N-Fun BBQ pre-registered for the event. Don't miss out on this
special gift pre-register NOW.
Welcome to the 2008 BBQ sign up, Please take a moment to visit
http://www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org/> or http://www.ch701.com
<http://www.ch701.com/> for the sign up sheet. This will be for your
name tag and will be your ticket for the cooks to provide you with a
great dinner. Plus this event is getting very large and I need an idea
on how much food to buy so that we feed everyone and don't run out! Lets
make it bigger this year, I have more give a ways, the first 90 people
with a pre-registered name badge will receive a gift. Limit one per
family please.
Thanks cdngoose
Sun-N-Fun BBQ 07 Bill Bodin won the Raffle for the Made to order Cummins
Spinner. This prize is custom made just for you! You tell us what prop
and engine you will be using and the Spinner will be made to order and
arrive at your door!
Don't Miss Sun-N-Fun 2008 Thursday April 10th 2008
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Intrument Panel Trim |
Dan:
There is a product that is used in 1960's and early 70's automobiles (American)
as trim. I got mine from JC Whitney in black. It's Part number ZX890791Y "Style
A, Black 1/32" - 1/16" thick 7/16" height, Flexible Interior And Exterior
Trim"
It is on sale right now for 16 doll hairs per roll.
You can see it in this picture above the panel:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_3_06_Canopy.JPG
Scott Laughlin
601XL/Corvair
Finished & Flying
www.cooknwithgas.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169565#169565
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada, Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a great
world
empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for
centuries...............
Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
his feelings got hurt : )
do not archive
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Well, just so you don't get your feelings hurt I'll reply to your post.
This kind of junk makes me wonder why I even bother reading
these lists. The amount of usefull technical stuff isn't much, and the
drivel seems to be a lot.
Jeff
> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before his
feelings got hurt : )
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169574#169574
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Tony, your words of wisdom and experience should encourage some of the more chicken
hearted folks, but for those truly afraid buy a parachute and a helmet, a
fire extinguisher, a canopy axe, two ELTs and a survival vest and fly something
else. Tony are you planning on going to SnF this April? Would enjoy meeting
you and best regards,
Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300 126 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: T. Graziano <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:53 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Accident
Just my two cents.
?
I too am curious?about the Australian aircraft accident investigation board?findings,
but I have confidence in the structural integrity of my XL that I built
from a kit and?flew on its maiden flight ---------------?as long as I fly it
in?its?RECOMMENDED FLIGHT ENVELOPE.
?
I now have 357? hours and over 700 take-offs/landings on my 601XL/Jab3300.?It has
wing lockers and aux tanks.?I flew it once?in a gradual build up of runs in
calm air to +8% over Vne or?195 MPH IAS in Phase I, in a shallow dive at max
recommended RPM.??(some have speculated?the XL?could?NEVER reach 200 mph --------
YES it can easily!! .... and even go faster ... before it possibly?breaks
up)
?
I have flow in gusty teeth chattering conditions (make sure you have a tight seat
belt and slow down to Va.) with no problems.? The XL can be flown in these
conditions, but does require more attention like any other airplane.
?
Once in Phase I testing, I was holding it in a stall buffet trying to get it to
break (was in a buffeting stall condition for an extended period of time) when
it abruptly pitched nose straight down (negative Gs)?from I suspect a gust that
stalled the Horiz stab.? If my seat belt had not been secured, I am sure I
would have been thrown through the canopy.? I have done probably?close to a hundred
or more stalls during airwork exercises at?most flight?conditions/flap
settings/power settings?and find the XL to be benign in the stall.? I find the
airplane to be easy to fly also.
?
I believe I can? induce catastrophic structural damage to my XL (and most other
airplanes)?if I were to?apply sudden?full stick deflections at high speed or
going to Vne in a dive and applying abrupt near max control deflections?for a
rolling, turning pullout. - NO, I am not going to try it.?
?
There are a lot of hawks, eagles, buzzards in?my part of Tennessee.? I look very
carefully below 2000 ft for birds,?as I suspect a canopy strike?would be a?BAD
problem in the XL, ........ or in C-150/172/182/Piper etc.
?
?
Tony Graziano
Buchanan, Tn
N493TG
?
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| Subject: | accident - slanted spar question |
Friends,
My friend who lives in the area in Austrailia where the accident happened is
sending me daily updates on the news articles and the feelings of the
pilots. I haven't been posting it because most of it appears here in the
forum before I get it so it wouldn't add anything new. John has sent this in
today's letter:
"They found the wreckage yesterday (weathers been bad winds to strong) and
hope to bring it up today. I think it might be to do with slanting the spar.
My brothers a Structural Engineer and says by taking the spar out of
vertical it opens up a whole new area of column failures which are very hard
to predict."
That was an interesting statement and I don't remember anyone ever talking
about the slanting of the spar. I'm not an engineer, but I would love to
hear from someone who is. Would the slant of the spar make it weaker or more
dangerous in violent flight?
Count me in also. See you at Sun & Fun.
Joe in Oshkosh - 601 XL
90% finished with 40% left to go
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---- If Scott's in, I'm in............
Subject:
Re: Sign-on for structural analysis
From:
cookwithgas (cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM)
Date:
Wed Mar 12 - 11:19 AM
_____*Scott Laughlin
______*Omaha, Nebraska
_______*6 0 1 X L / Corvair
________* Plans-Built (3/4" thk. Longerons)
_________*Used lots of Green Scotchbrite
__________*Finished & Flying Straight and True.
___________*48+ hours of flight - Permanent Grin.
____________* BRS safety pin removed.
_____________*Wings still attached.
_____________*I'm In.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
I've mentioned it, and I believe Dave Downey has mentioned it too.
I'm also of the opinion that, if you have a wing locker, there's even that much
less (if anything really) holding that spar in position in a critical area.
See if you can find out if this XL had a wing locker.
backstagelive(at)gmail.co wrote:
> Friends,
>
> My friend who lives in the area in Austrailia where the accident happened is
> sending me daily updates on the news articles and the feelings of the
> pilots. I haven't been posting it because most of it appears here in the
> forum before I get it so it wouldn't add anything new. John has sent this in
> today's letter:
>
> "They found the wreckage yesterday (weathers been bad winds to strong) and
> hope to bring it up today. I think it might be to do with slanting the spar.
> My brothers a Structural Engineer and says by taking the spar out of
> vertical it opens up a whole new area of column failures which are very hard
> to predict."
>
> That was an interesting statement and I don't remember anyone ever talking
> about the slanting of the spar. I'm not an engineer, but I would love to
> hear from someone who is. Would the slant of the spar make it weaker or more
> dangerous in violent flight?
>
> Count me in also. See you at Sun & Fun.
>
> Joe in Oshkosh - 601 XL
>
> 90% finished with 40% left to go
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169600#169600
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: XL - success stories |
> As Joe Shiebinger's email, there may have been a
> bird strike, so don't jump to any conclusions to
> whether there's any design flaws in the 601. I am
> sure ZA has been around a long time and no design
> flaws have been reported in the past...Do not Arch.
--- Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net> wrote:
> <juhl@avci.net>
>
> Recent news has raised concerns again concerning the
> safety of the design of the XL. It is proper to be
> concerned but what do we really know? While we are
> waiting and wondering I'd like to hear from those of
> you that are flying your XL. Perhaps you'd be
> willing to share with the rest of us how many hours
> you have on your plane and a brief comment regarding
> your overall satisfaction.
>
> Tim Juhl
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on fuselage
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=168928#168928
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
Andy, I have to ask. Have you ever seen the wing locker built to Zenith specs in
person? I ask because having installed two of them IMHO that part of the wing
may have more strength than any place else.
ashontz wrote:
> I'm also of the opinion that, if you have a wing locker, there's even that much
less (if anything really) holding that spar in position in a critical area.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169605#169605
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Flydog,
Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge I=B4m doing a favor
to you, go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
----- Original Message -----
From: Flydog1966@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada,
Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world
largest economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380
parts, Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon
people...had a great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the
list may go on for centuries...............
Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America
before his feelings got hurt : )
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
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| Subject: | Armchair Engineer |
Who ever was implicitly accusing me of being an armchair engineer, I'd like an
apology.
This patent was appoved in 1979 (29 years ago) with the help of the Air Force.
I take it the guy who invented it was in the Air Force. He's addressing the same
torsional stability and bending moment problems.
You can download the whole PDF here.
http://books.google.com/patents?id=kYA7AAAAEBAJ
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADD006212
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169606#169606
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
I've looked at it one the plans and in photos. Look at where the resistance stress
vectors are pointing back to from the forward canted top edge of the main
spar that should be keeping the spar in that area vertical. They point back to
an open air right in the middle of the wing.
If someone point a gun to my head and said I HAD to intall a wing locker, my wing
locker would be triagular in shape with the point facing forward.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Andy, I have to ask. Have you ever seen the wing locker built to Zenith specs
in person? I ask because having installed two of them IMHO that part of the wing
may have more strength than any place else.
>
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > I'm also of the opinion that, if you have a wing locker, there's even that
much less (if anything really) holding that spar in position in a critical area.
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169607#169607
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
That absolutely makes sense, and the further aft the center of lift will
shift (from a rapid pullup for example) the more that would be emphasized.
Which in fact completely explains why the simple sandbag test isn't that good a
test. They could try loading the wing inverted at say 30-45 degrees
off level and that would probably fail the wing.
My guess that is.
Jeff
> That was an interesting statement and I don't remember anyone ever talking
> about the slanting of the spar. I'm not an engineer, but I would love to
> hear from someone who is. Would the slant of the spar make it weaker or more
> dangerous in violent flight?
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169608#169608
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Hey Iberplanes,
Don't blame the entire culture, we're not all like that.
I've got two nice guitars right here that were made in Madrid, so at
least one of us has an appreciation for Spain.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169612#169612
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
So Andy your answer to my question is no then?
I know CH's qualifications to make design decisions like the one you make below.
Do you mind posting yours?
ashontz wrote:
> I've looked at it one the plans and in photos. Look at where the resistance stress
vectors are pointing back to from the forward canted top edge of the main
spar that should be keeping the spar in that area vertical. They point back
to an open air right in the middle of the wing.
>
> If someone put a gun to my head and said I HAD to intall a wing locker, my wing
locker would be semicicular in shape with the circular side facing forward.
>
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
> > Andy, I have to ask. Have you ever seen the wing locker built to Zenith specs
in person? I ask because having installed two of them IMHO that part of the
wing may have more strength than any place else.
> >
> >
> >
> > ashontz wrote:
> > > I'm also of the opinion that, if you have a wing locker, there's even that
much less (if anything really) holding that spar in position in a critical area.
> > >
> >
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169613#169613
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
No, I haven't. Want to correct my spelling too?
My qualifications, 4 years of engineering school.
In layman's terms, anyone skilled at origami can tell exactly where that wing would
fold first, and it would be at the wing locker.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> So Andy your answer to my question is no then?
>
> I know CH's qualifications to make design decisions like the one you make below.
Do you mind posting yours?
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > I've looked at it one the plans and in photos. Look at where the resistance
stress vectors are pointing back to from the forward canted top edge of the main
spar that should be keeping the spar in that area vertical. They point back
to an open air right in the middle of the wing.
> >
> > If someone put a gun to my head and said I HAD to intall a wing locker, my
wing locker would be semicicular in shape with the circular side facing forward.
> >
> >
> > Gig Giacona wrote:
> > > Andy, I have to ask. Have you ever seen the wing locker built to Zenith specs
in person? I ask because having installed two of them IMHO that part of the
wing may have more strength than any place else.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ashontz wrote:
> > > > I'm also of the opinion that, if you have a wing locker, there's even that
much less (if anything really) holding that spar in position in a critical
area.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169615#169615
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I'm in
Carroll Jernigan
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
yeah I know, no worries.
Is a common mistake to place Spain in South America, for our language and
because they were colonies, but think it is like UK and USA.
I have an entire family branch there, they were born in Waterbury CT after
WWII and some of them thought the same.
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 incident
>
> Hey Iberplanes,
>
> Don't blame the entire culture, we're not all like that.
>
> I've got two nice guitars right here that were made in Madrid, so at
> least one of us has an appreciation for Spain.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169612#169612
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Alberto,
Besides being somewhat arrogant, you obviously have no sense of humor. I know,
I know, humor does not translate easily, but that was what he intended, believe
me, amigo.
Hang in there,
Jay in Dallas
do not archive
"Iberplanes IGL" <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote:
>Flydog,
>
>Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge Im doing a favor to you, go
to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
>
>
>Alberto Martin
>Iberplanes IGL
>http://www.iberplanes.es
>Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flydog1966@aol.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
>
>
> In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, iberplanes@gmail.com
writes:
> I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for themselves,
sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada, Australia...
>
> Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts, Eurofighter,
EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a great world empire,
has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for centuries...............
>
> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
his feelings got hurt : )
> do not archive
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Seeing as how we've got a fair number of people interested so far, maybe this fairly
large group can fan out and start sourcing some info for who would be qualified
to check this out and what someone might charge. Someone here mentioned
an engineering school may look at it for free even. That would be nice.
Even so, if everyone here is about in the same financial boat, I'd imagine people
may be willing to spend $100 - $150 each (I'm guessing and not speaking for
anyone in particular) for a total of $3,000 so far for someone to look at this
and give their professional opinion. At a normal professional going rate, that's
like 2 weeks worth of work I'd say which is probably reasonable and would
probably be enough to yield some useful analysis.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169627#169627
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Yes, please don't blame all od us. I've been to Spain. Nice place,
nice people and do you have a recipe for paella?
Darrell
do not archive
On 3/13/08, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Flydog,
>
> Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge Im doing a favor to
> you, go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
>
>
> Alberto Martin
> Iberplanes IGL
> http://www.iberplanes.es
> Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flydog1966@aol.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
>
>
> In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
> I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
> themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada,
> Australia...
>
> Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
> economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
> Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a
> great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for
> centuries...............
>
>
> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
> his feelings got hurt : )
> do not archive
>
>
> ________________________________
> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
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Thanks Alberto I was going to send him one also
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes
IGL
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
Flydog,
Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge I=B4m doing a favor
to you, go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
----- Original Message -----
From: Flydog1966@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada,
Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world
largest economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380
parts, Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon
people...had a great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the
list may go on for centuries...............
Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America
before his feelings got hurt : )
do not archive
________________________________
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
....but only because pretty much everyone considers me to be a forcaster of falling
sky... that, and the associated minor forward sweep is the center of my interest.
Friends,
My friend who lives in the area in Austrailia where the accident happened is
sending me daily updates on the news articles and the feelings of the
pilots. I haven't been posting it because most of it appears here in the
forum before I get it so it wouldn't add anything new. John has sent this in
today's letter:
"They found the wreckage yesterday (weathers been bad winds to strong) and
hope to bring it up today. I think it might be to do with slanting the spar.
My brothers a Structural Engineer and says by taking the spar out of
vertical it opens up a whole new area of column failures which are very hard
to predict."
That was an interesting statement and I don't remember anyone ever talking
about the slanting of the spar. I'm not an engineer, but I would love to
hear from someone who is. Would the slant of the spar make it weaker or more
dangerous in violent flight?
Count me in also. See you at Sun & Fun.
Joe in Oshkosh - 601 XL
90% finished with 40% left to go
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
George May mentioned an ad that appears monthly in Sport Aviation.
"Need Engineering Assistance? MIT degreed aeronautical engineer will
help solve your problem. Structures, aerodynamics and powerplants.
Reasonable fee. New Number - 877-952-9290."
Bill
Do not archive
ashontz wrote:
>
> Seeing as how we've got a fair number of people interested so far, maybe this
fairly large group can fan out and start sourcing some info for who would be
qualified to check this out and what someone might charge. Someone here mentioned
an engineering school may look at it for free even. That would be nice.
>
> Even so, if everyone here is about in the same financial boat, I'd imagine people
may be willing to spend $100 - $150 each (I'm guessing and not speaking for
anyone in particular) for a total of $3,000 so far for someone to look at this
and give their professional opinion. At a normal professional going rate,
that's like 2 weeks worth of work I'd say which is probably reasonable and would
probably be enough to yield some useful analysis.
>
>
>
Message 43
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I'm in.
John Reinking
Woodinville, WA
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
Flydog is teasing you, don't take his comment too seriously or personal. If you
look at the archives your going to see lot of heated arguments, cynicism and
outright rudeness among the people of this list, regardless of participant's country
of origin.
I think I understand where your frustration is comming from, I spend some time
reading post in the the Spanish group list aviador and I was very impressed
with the level of civilism shown there. If you are acostumed to that list, this
one will look like a bunch of barbarians in comparison. Well I guess every now
and them there's should be one rough interchanges there also but I didn't came
across with one.
Don't get discouraged and keep participating. There is lots of good info in this
list, you just need to grow a thicker skin.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote: Flydog,
Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge Im doing a favor to you,
go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
----- Original Message -----
From: Flydog1966@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, iberplanes@gmail.com
writes:
I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for themselves,
sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada, Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts, Eurofighter,
EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a great
world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for centuries...............
Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
his feelings got hurt : )
do not archive
---------------------------------
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: 601 incident |
I would also appreciate a great paella recipe.
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169635#169635
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Hi Alberto,
I=92m pretty sure he was making a joke =85 there=92s a little sideways
smiley icon
at the end of his sentence (below).
Take care,
Cory
>> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America
before
his feelings got hurt : ) <<
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes
IGL
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
Flydog,
Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge I=B4m doing a favor
to
you, go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
----- Original Message -----
From: Flydog1966@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada,
Australia...
Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world
largest
economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a
great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on
for
centuries...............
Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America
before
his feelings got hurt : )
do not archive
_____
It's Tax Time! Get
<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001>
tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
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"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 47
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Hi Sabrina,
Thanks for all the interesting comments. Let me
add a few questions and answers of my own.
The XL doesn't have a header tank. All the fuel is stored in the wing tanks.
I don't understand your comment about Normal
category flight. The XL is not designed for aerobatic flight.
I would like more information on your ejector
canopy. I think a personal parachute would be a
wise thing to have - especially for initial
flight testing. However, I don't know of any
technique for bailing out of a plane with a front
hinged canopy. Detailed design information would
be greatly appreciated. I actually asked
Sebastian Heintz about this before starting
building my XL. He made a joke about it and said
the "Egress system has not been tested" or some such cute remark.
I think the aileron twist is done to give the
wing some washout. This makes the stall take
place at the root before the tips and allows for
better control during a stall. I don't think the
twist has much of any other impact.
I don't understand you comment about centering
the flaps on the rear spar. The flaps are
mounted on the bottom flange of the spar. How could they be centered?
I just got a phone quote from Falcon insurance
for EAA coverage of my XL. They said the price
for liability would be around $600 per
year. Hull insurance varied from around $700 for
non-flying coverage to around $2100 for full hull
coverage. The hull quotes were based on a
$50,0000 value for the plane. The broker I spoke
to seemed to think the Zodiac was a fine
experimental plane, and also said the companies
he uses for EAA coverage don't distinguish
between a private pilot flying with full
privileges or one limited to Sport Pilot
privileges - the premiums are the same. As to
pilot experience, he said a couple of hours (yes
2) in type would be helpful. Oddly, he said in
my case (Sport Pilot limited private pilot) my
wife could be covered as a student pilot only if
she was training for a Private Pilot license
rather than a Sport Pilot license. This
restriction applied to only one of the two
insurance companies he uses (I think it was AIG)
I suspect the issue of time in type and checkout
requirements vary considerably from one insurance
company to another. I have found the EAA
arranged coverage seems to fit recreational
flying well while insurance packages arranged for
more conventional airplane owners have a
completely different set of requirements. Lets
face it - people have a very hard time finding
experimental airplanes to get dual instruction
in, but those who buy Cessnas can get dual time at nearly any local airport.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 08:12 AM 3/12/2008, you wrote:
>I too bought the kit before the first major
>failure. I held off building the wings until last.
>
>Common sense would tell you to fly this aircraft
>in the Normal category until more facts are in.
>
>Explosions of header fuel tanks, be they 8
>gallons or 1 gallon can lead directly to spar
>failure and wing fold in any design.
>
>An ejector canopy with a pilot parachute are an
>inexpensive option, just make sure you have room to duck.
>
>Engine vibration due to plug fouling can lead to
>an increased load on the airframe. Compare the
>XL O-200A engine mount with the Cessna 150 mount.
>
>Looking at XLs over the years, one notices the following:
>
>Failure to twist the ailerons 2.5 degrees. (6-W-2)
>
>Evidence of excessive flexing due to wind damage
>at the top of the aileron, inboard attach point.
>
>Failure to include an upper elevator stop (the
>shoe is often beyond 32 degrees). (6-S-4)
>
>Failure to center the flaps on the rear spar,
>they often rise too far above or are set too far below the spar. (6-W-00)
>
>Drilling too large of an aileron control rod
>hole, or placing it too low in the rear spar near rib 7. (6-W-00)
>
>Not having dL = dR (6-S-3). In light of recent
>events there is no excuse for being anywhere
>near the +/- 50 mm tolerance allowed by the designer.
>
>Failure to properly attach the rear spars
>including failure to set the top aft edge of
>both to an equal distance below the longeron
>reference line; improper use of shims between
>the 6B5-4 attach plate and the rear spar; the
>rear spar mounted on the wrong side of the attach plate. (6-S-3)
>
>Fly the factory Zenith, see how much elevator
>input they will allow you to use in cruise
>flight before they turn white and take over the controls.
>
>Remember, with the flaps in any position but up,
>even a Cessna 150 Aerobat is NOT certified to
>intentionally experience ANY negative Gs.
>
>What are people paying for XL insurance, $30,000
>hull coverage and $1M liability?
>
>My 150 comes in just over $600, whereas the
>quotes for the XL winged aircraft now exceed
>$2,000, they wont insure Phase 1 for hull
>damage, they wont insure a solo student
>pilot, or anyone without 10 hours of dual in the aircraft or 40 hours in type.
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Armchair Engineer |
huh?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:22 AM, ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
>
> Who ever was implicitly accusing me of being an armchair engineer, I'd
> like an apology.
>
> This patent was appoved in 1979 (29 years ago) with the help of the Air
> Force. I take it the guy who invented it was in the Air Force. He's
> addressing the same torsional stability and bending moment problems.
>
> You can download the whole PDF here.
> http://books.google.com/patents?id=kYA7AAAAEBAJ
>
>
> http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADD006212
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169606#169606
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
No Andy I have no desire to correct your spelling as long as you don't mine me
taking my aircraft building advise from someone that has actually trained to and
designed several successful aircraft.
For the life of me I can't understand why you are still even considering building,
much less, flying a 601.
ashontz wrote:
> No, I haven't. Want to correct my spelling too?
>
> My qualifications, 4 years of engineering school.
>
> In layman's terms, anyone skilled at origami can tell exactly where that wing
would fold first, and it would be at the wing locker.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169647#169647
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Then there's this: www.oriontechnologies.net/
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Lets get the ball rolling and get this done... Who wants to be in charge and make
the phone call? We also need someone to collect the cash.
Steve Shuck
Fresno, Ca.
601XL/3300
Bill Steer <steerr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
George May mentioned an ad that appears monthly in Sport Aviation.
"Need Engineering Assistance? MIT degreed aeronautical engineer will
help solve your problem. Structures, aerodynamics and powerplants.
Reasonable fee. New Number - 877-952-9290."
Bill
Do not archive
ashontz wrote:
>
> Seeing as how we've got a fair number of people interested so far, maybe this
fairly large group can fan out and start sourcing some info for who would be
qualified to check this out and what someone might charge. Someone here mentioned
an engineering school may look at it for free even. That would be nice.
>
> Even so, if everyone here is about in the same financial boat, I'd imagine people
may be willing to spend $100 - $150 each (I'm guessing and not speaking for
anyone in particular) for a total of $3,000 so far for someone to look at this
and give their professional opinion. At a normal professional going rate,
that's like 2 weeks worth of work I'd say which is probably reasonable and would
probably be enough to yield some useful analysis.
>
>
>
---------------------------------
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Hi Mike,
You ask some very important questions. I wish I
had the answers, but I don't. What I do have is
three years of working daily on my XL and all the
other experiences that went along with that.
I have often considered what other plane I would
like to build. I still haven't found a design
that meets my needs and desires better than the
XL. It offers the basic things I want and gives
the maximum amount allowed for each area. I want
an LSA legal plane with two seats that are side
by side. I also want nose gear steering, flaps,
and appropriate controls and trim and reasonable
handling and performance. While I would like a
plane good for long cross country trips, day
trips are more likely for me to take since I
don't really like to travel. I also wanted an
all metal design since that seems the best suited
to the rain forest climate I live in. (Funny
thing, Van's company is located here and makes all metal kit planes.)
The RV-12 doesn't work for several reasons. I
don't like the fact it is limited to the Rotax
engine. It doesn't have nose gear
steering. Also, it is not yet available on the market.
I am concerned about the structural failures
experienced on XLs. I am also not convinced
there is an unusually high number of such
failures. I know there are many XLs flying with
no problems. I feel there is always some danger
in flying experimental AB airplanes and the
Zodiac may or may not be among the safest
examples of that type of plane. There is also
some danger flying factory built planes, but you
get to pay a lot more for that type.
I intend to fly my XL using all the skill I
currently have and any additional skill I can
develop. I firmly believe safe flight is mostly
a matter of pilot skill and performance. There
are many years of data that say pilot error is
the most likely cause of any aviation
accident. I believe this applies to
experimental-AB planes as well as certified types.
If there is an additional few percent chance that
the XL will fail on me then I am willing to
accept that risk. The joy of flying a plane I
built with my own hands and brain makes up for
that. If I wind up getting killed as a result of
a freak structural failure, then . . . well . . .
I can't think of a better way to go. I have
already lived longer than most humans throughout
history, and I am sure I will die from some cause or another eventually.
Good luck with your decision.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 10:56 PM 3/11/2008, you wrote:
>
>It is easy to try and second-guess a design
>based on some supposed facts from media
>stories and eyewitnesses. Yes, its
>true that most of us are not aeronautical
>engineers But I think that it is
>constructive to discuss the accidents, keeping
>in mind that we may not know all the
>facts. That said, it does seem that we may want
>to make note of the fact that wing structural
>failure seems to be coming up as a common
>thread. Has wing structural failure been
>mentioned in relation to accidents of other
>aircraft (even certified designs)? We all know
>that flight into thunderstorms and/or loss of
>control can over-stress the airframe and result in failure.
>
>But I must admit that I am a bit concerned about
>the supposed in-flight structural failures
>on the 601XL. I know that Chris Heintz did a
>re-evaluation of the wing structure and loading
>after two supposed in-flight wing failure
>accident reports. But these were static load
>tests and would not expose any dynamic problems
>related to flutter or torsional deflections that may lead to wing failure.
>
>I have attended the rudder workshop at Zenith
>and am getting pretty close to making the
>commitment to go with a 601XL. I plan to ask
>them at Sun-n-Fun about the wing issue,
>although I would imagine that they will not tell
>me anything that I dont already know. Again,
>we dont want to jump to conclusions. I could
>wait and go with a Vans S-12 or a RANS
>19 But those are new designs and could also
>have design problems. In fact, one of the
>reasons I was looking at the 601 XL is that the
>designer is well-known and respected and the
>design has been flying for awhile.
>
>Does anyone know if there are any similar
>structural failures on other AB
>aircraft? Again, we are assuming that there
>was, in fact a structural wing failure. I guess
>that we dont really know for sure.
>
>What type of flight testing has the 601XL design
>been through? Are there any flight test
>requirements that subject the airframe to the
>limits of the loading? I think the plane is
>rated to +/- 6 G? Does flight testing require that to be demonstrated?
>
>As to Jays comment why are we building the
>601XLs in light of the alleged in-flight
>structural failures? I imagine that most
>people who are in the process of building a
>601XL started their kits before they were aware
>of the several accidents in question.
>
>Some responses on the forum are suggesting that
>the aircraft will be fine as long as it is flown
>properly In a 172, I once ran into clear-air
>turbulence over the mountains of Pennsylvania
>and it scared me to death. There was nothing I
>could do to prevent that incident. Can the 601XL survive an upset like that?
>
>Let me close in saying that we dont really
>know for sure about the potential
>structural failures. Its possible that they
>could all be explained by airframe failure due
>to loss of control by the pilot (e.g.
>birdstrike, flight into storm, accidental rapid
>movement of the controls, etc.).
>
>Thanks, Mike
>
>
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| Subject: | Re:accident - slanted spar question |
At this time it seems unreasonable for me to degrade the strength of the semi
monocoque wing with wing lockers. I think I'll sit back and watch for a
while. I'm wondering if it might even help a little, if I installed the structures
that go between the ribs, then skin over that area completely. Theoretically,
I could later cut out the lockers and install the hardware. Or leave it as is
forever, my choice. For now, I will use my Hartwell Latches elsewhere.
Bob
**************
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance.
(http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
To the "I'm In" Crowd,
Before we contract with an engineer or firm, would it make any sense to ask
Zenith if they have any non-affiliated parties that they would recommend?
That firm's fiduciary responsibility would be to us (or our agent), not to
Zenith. It might give us a place to start and avoid gathering information
that could ultimately be discounted or completely disregarded by the
designer because of our source.
The other thought has to do with timing. If Mark Townsend is correct, we
may have a statement from Zenith within days. It makes sense to me to
evaluate that first, before committing ourselves to a 3rd party structural
analysis (although it still might be deemed necessary, after hearing what
Chris Heintz has to say).
Just a couple of thoughts.
Larry Winger
601XL/Corvair
Wings done (as designed)
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Kevin L. Rupert <klr12@psu.edu> wrote:
>
> Then there's this: www.oriontechnologies.net/
>
>
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: accident - slanted spar question |
This is exactly the problem with this entire conversation. There is exactly zero
evidence that the lockers weaken the wings. Nobody has even confirmed that any
of the failed airframes had wing lockers. They certainly weren't mentioned
in any of the accident reports.
MaxNr(at)aol.com wrote:
> At this time it seems unreasonable for me to degrade the strength of the semi
monocoque wing with wing lockers. I think I'll sit back and watch for a while.
I'm wondering if it might even help a little, if I installed the structures
that go between the ribs, then skin over that area completely. Theoretically,
I could later cut out the lockers and install the hardware. Or leave it as is
forever, my choice. For now, I will use my Hartwell Latches elsewhere.
>
> Bob
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169677#169677
Message 56
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Well said Paul.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169678#169678
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I second both of Larry's motions.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169684#169684
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| Subject: | Slanted Spar and "mini spar" |
I too have felt a bit uneasy about the slanted spar. It does almost seem
like some type of triangular box spar would be better.
One approach to strengthen the spar when encountering loads from the front
and below would be to cut a slot in each rib between the front lightening
hole and the spar perpendicular to the spar, and then insert a "mini-spar"
through all of the ribs. It would be attached to each rib with a
triangular formed bracket. That would accomplish some of what the Air
Force patent article (1979) was trying to accomplish. It would certainly
act to resist any bending back of the main spar.
I'm no engineer, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, and I
broke plenty of things on the farm as a kid, so I have some sense of how
things fail structurally. I have the complete kit but will just be
starting soon on the HS.
Doug Sire
601XL kit
Billings, MT
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Hi Paul;
I believe the reference to centering the flaps is related to the thickness of the
flap being considerably over the thickness of the contour of the wing airfoil
immediately ahead of the retracted flap (about 0.240"). The referenced drawing
calls for the 3 mm above local contour and 3mm below local contour - centered.
As for the aerobatic flight reference, why do you think Zenith keeps the looping
XL video on its company web page? Many pilots do not have an understanding of
the rate of acceleration that occurs when a maneuver is botched - I almost pulled
the wings off a 150 back in 1976 when I screwed up a solo departure stall.
All I remember was the engine screaming and the ASI pegged with the VSI going
around like a clock spring unwinding...I had a new instructor the next flight!
Hi Sabrina,
Thanks for all the interesting comments. Let me
add a few questions and answers of my own.
The XL doesn't have a header tank. All the fuel is stored in the wing tanks.
I don't understand your comment about Normal
category flight. The XL is not designed for aerobatic flight.
I would like more information on your ejector
canopy. I think a personal parachute would be a
wise thing to have - especially for initial
flight testing. However, I don't know of any
technique for bailing out of a plane with a front
hinged canopy. Detailed design information would
be greatly appreciated. I actually asked
Sebastian Heintz about this before starting
building my XL. He made a joke about it and said
the "Egress system has not been tested" or some such cute remark.
I think the aileron twist is done to give the
wing some washout. This makes the stall take
place at the root before the tips and allows for
better control during a stall. I don't think the
twist has much of any other impact.
I don't understand you comment about centering
the flaps on the rear spar. The flaps are
mounted on the bottom flange of the spar. How could they be centered?
I just got a phone quote from Falcon insurance
for EAA coverage of my XL. They said the price
for liability would be around $600 per
year. Hull insurance varied from around $700 for
non-flying coverage to around $2100 for full hull
coverage. The hull quotes were based on a
$50,0000 value for the plane. The broker I spoke
to seemed to think the Zodiac was a fine
experimental plane, and also said the companies
he uses for EAA coverage don't distinguish
between a private pilot flying with full
privileges or one limited to Sport Pilot
privileges - the premiums are the same. As to
pilot experience, he said a couple of hours (yes
2) in type would be helpful. Oddly, he said in
my case (Sport Pilot limited private pilot) my
wife could be covered as a student pilot only if
she was training for a Private Pilot license
rather than a Sport Pilot license. This
restriction applied to only one of the two
insurance companies he uses (I think it was AIG)
I suspect the issue of time in type and checkout
requirements vary considerably from one insurance
company to another. I have found the EAA
arranged coverage seems to fit recreational
flying well while insurance packages arranged for
more conventional airplane owners have a
completely different set of requirements. Lets
face it - people have a very hard time finding
experimental airplanes to get dual instruction
in, but those who buy Cessnas can get dual time at nearly any local airport.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 08:12 AM 3/12/2008, you wrote:
>I too bought the kit before the first major
>failure. I held off building the wings until last.
>
>Common sense would tell you to fly this aircraft
>in the Normal category until more facts are in.
>
>Explosions of header fuel tanks, be they 8
>gallons or 1 gallon can lead directly to spar
>failure and wing fold in any design.
>
>An ejector canopy with a pilot parachute are an
>inexpensive option, just make sure you have room to duck.
>
>Engine vibration due to plug fouling can lead to
>an increased load on the airframe. Compare the
>XL O-200A engine mount with the Cessna 150 mount.
>
>Looking at XLs over the years, one notices the following:
>
>Failure to twist the ailerons 2.5 degrees. (6-W-2)
>
>Evidence of excessive flexing due to wind damage
>at the top of the aileron, inboard attach point.
>
>Failure to include an upper elevator stop (the
>shoe is often beyond 32 degrees). (6-S-4)
>
>Failure to center the flaps on the rear spar,
>they often rise too far above or are set too far below the spar. (6-W-00)
>
>Drilling too large of an aileron control rod
>hole, or placing it too low in the rear spar near rib 7. (6-W-00)
>
>Not having dL = dR (6-S-3). In light of recent
>events there is no excuse for being anywhere
>near the +/- 50 mm tolerance allowed by the designer.
>
>Failure to properly attach the rear spars
>including failure to set the top aft edge of
>both to an equal distance below the longeron
>reference line; improper use of shims between
>the 6B5-4 attach plate and the rear spar; the
>rear spar mounted on the wrong side of the attach plate. (6-S-3)
>
>Fly the factory Zenith, see how much elevator
>input they will allow you to use in cruise
>flight before they turn white and take over the controls.
>
>Remember, with the flaps in any position but up,
>even a Cessna 150 Aerobat is NOT certified to
>intentionally experience ANY negative Gs.
>
>What are people paying for XL insurance, $30,000
>hull coverage and $1M liability?
>
>My 150 comes in just over $600, whereas the
>quotes for the XL winged aircraft now exceed
>$2,000, they wont insure Phase 1 for hull
>damage, they wont insure a solo student
>pilot, or anyone without 10 hours of dual in the aircraft or 40 hours in type.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Why dont we try to get the guy that runs the web site to hold the cash,
we all know him,once we find a eng. and how much ,we all send our money
to him and away we go.... I think it's time to put the Folding Wings
to rest , get some professional help and find out What the hell is going
on with the wings . the part that I dont like is the one that fold in
the traffic pattern, I just don't see any neg.G's there..... Joe
N101HD 601XL /RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Shuck
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis
Lets get the ball rolling and get this done... Who wants to be in
charge and make the phone call? We also need someone to collect the
cash.
Steve Shuck
Fresno, Ca.
601XL/3300
Bill Steer <steerr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
George May mentioned an ad that appears monthly in Sport Aviation.
"Need Engineering Assistance? MIT degreed aeronautical engineer will
help solve your problem. Structures, aerodynamics and powerplants.
Reasonable fee. New Number - 877-952-9290."
Bill
Do not archive
ashontz wrote:
>
> Seeing as how we've got a fair number of people interested so far,
maybe this fairly large group can fan out
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Message 61
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> looping XL video on its company web page
Where is it on the ZAC site?
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Downey
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Accident
Hi Paul;
I believe the reference to centering the flaps is related to the thickness
of the flap being considerably over the thickness of the contour of the wing
airfoil immediately ahead of the retracted flap (about 0.240"). The
referenced drawing calls for the 3 mm above local contour and 3mm below
local contour - centered.
As for the aerobatic flight reference, why do you think Zenith keeps the
looping XL video on its company web page? Many pilots do not have an
understanding of the rate of acceleration that occurs when a maneuver is
botched - I almost pulled the wings off a 150 back in 1976 when I screwed up
a solo departure stall. All I remember was the engine screaming and the ASI
pegged with the VSI going around like a clock spring unwinding...I had a new
instructor the next flight!
Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
Hi Sabrina,
Thanks for all the interesting comments. Let me
add a few questions and answers of my own.
The XL doesn't have a header tank. All the fuel is stored in the wing tanks.
I don't understand your comment about Normal
category flight. The XL is not designed for aerobatic flight.
I would like more information on your ejector
canopy. I think a personal parachute would be a
wise thing to have - especially for initial
flight testing. However, I don't know of any
technique for bailing out of a plane with a front
hinged canopy. Detailed design information would
be greatly appreciated. I actually asked
Sebastian Heintz about this before starting
building my XL. He made a joke about it and said
the "Egress system has not been tested" or some such cute remark.
I think the aileron twist is done to give the
wing some washout. This makes the stall take
place at the root before the tips and allows for
better control during a stall. I don't think the
twist has much of any other impact.
I don't understand you comment about centering
the flaps on the rear spar. The flaps are
mounted on the bottom flange of the spar. How could they be centered?
I just got a phone quote from Falcon insurance
for EAA coverage of my XL. They said the price
for liability would be around $600 per
year. Hull insurance varied from around $700 for
non-flying coverage to around $2100 for full hull
coverage. The hull quotes were based on a
$50,0000 value for the plane. The broker I spoke
to seemed to think the Zodiac was a fine
experimental plane, and also said the companies
he uses for EAA coverage don't distinguish
between a private pilot flying with full
privileges or one limited to Sport Pilot
privileges - the premiums are the same. As to
pilot experience, he said a couple of hours (yes
2) in type would be helpful. Oddly, he said in
my case (Sport Pilot limited private pilot) my
wife could be covered as a student pilot only if
she was training for a Private Pilot license
rather than a Sport Pilot license. This
restriction applied to only one of the two
insurance companies he uses (I think it was AIG)
I suspect the issue of time in type and checkout
requirements vary considerably from one insurance
company to another. I have found the EAA
arranged coverage seems to fit recreational
flying well while insurance packages arranged for
more conventional airplane owners have a
completely different set of requirements. Lets
face it - people have a very hard time finding
experimental airplanes to get dual instruction
in, but those who buy Cessnas can get dual time at nearly any local airport.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 08:12 AM 3/12/2008, you wrote:
>I too bought the kit before the first major
>failure. I held off building the wings until last.
>
>Common sense would tell you to fly this aircraft
>in the Normal category until more facts are in.
>
>Explosions of header fuel tanks, be they 8
>gallons or 1 gallon can lead directly to spar
>failure and wing fold in any design.
>
>An ejector canopy with a pilot parachute are an
>inexpensive option, just make sure you have room to duck.
>
>Engine vibration due to plug fouling can lead to
>an increased load on the airframe. Compare the
>XL O-200A engine mount with the Cessna 150 mount.
>
>Looking at XLs over the years, one notices the following:
>
>Failure to twist the ailerons 2.5 degrees. (6-W-2)
>
>Evidence of excessive flexing due to wind damage
>at the top of the aileron, inboard attach point.
>
>Failure to include an upper elevator stop (the
>shoe is often beyond 32 degrees). (6-S-4)
>
>Failure to center the flaps on the rear spar,
>they often rise too far above or are set too far below the spar. (6-W-00)
>
>Drilling too large of an aileron control rod
>hole, or placing it too low in the rear spar near rib 7. (6-W-00)
>
>Not having dL = dR (6-S-3). In light of recent
>events there is no excuse for being anywhere
>near the +/- 50 mm tolerance allowed by the designer.
>
>Failure to properly attach the rear spars
>including failure to set the top aft edge of
>both to an equal distance below the longeron
>reference line; improper use of shims between
>the 6B5-4 attach plate and the rear spar; the
>rear spar mounted on the wrong side of the attach plate. (6-S-3)
>
>Fly the factory Zenith, see how much
_____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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Hello Again Listers, below are some words from Chris Heintz on the last
flurry of this discussion, at the bottom of this letter is the whole
letter from May 10 2007.
Special note to Zodiac Pilots: The Zodiac aircraft has a large amount of
elevator control. I designed this feature so that if a pilot improperly
computes the C of G before flying, he/she will in most cases have enough
elevator authority to safely return and land. Also, like most of my
other aircraft designs, the Zodiac has excellent control authority at
low speeds. It is critical that this extra controllability not be
abused. Pushing the stick rapidly full forward at cruise speed - even
briefly - can result in serious damage to the airframe. Caution must be
exercised to not inadvertently push the stick rapidly to its limits (
i.e. while stretching, reaching into the rear baggage compartment,
etc.). Remember also that, without a doubt, you will always have a more
enjoyable flight if the weather is "severe clear".
Owners should take note that the CH601XL has relatively light pitch
control forces and that it is possible to exceed the positive (+6) and
the negative (-3) ultimate load factors if forcing the controls in a
very rough or sudden manner. Please be reasonable: the fact that the
CH601XL can perform aerobatic maneuvers very well does not make it an
aerobatic design."
So this latest spawn of doubt sprang from someone stating that the
Aussie accident had a wing failure, then the band wagon was lead by the
loudest voice. I have no problem with a common sense discussion of the
601's design. Hell that is what this list is for, in Chris's own words
the control of the elevator can move the plane into stresses that can
exceed it's design. I am concerned about the mentality that wishes to
believe a problem exists without proof and runs with heresay.
So lets get back to the latest one in Australia, I have just gotten off
the phone from the Dealer there and had a discussion with them and the
divers who found the wreckage. I cannot tell you what happened, nor am I
going to guess. I will not judge accomplished pilots and builders of the
plane. I have not talked to Zenith about this so the information I have
is from non official sources. However, I will lay out the facts here as
I know them to be from people who are there and seen the wreckage.
1. Parts of the Canopy have been found 2 kms from the resting
location of the plane. Some have been found on top of buildings.
2. Pictures taken with camera's were deceiving at first by hiding
one side of the fuselage on decent, but some frames have shown the plane
just before impact with the water and both wings are in place, as well
as the tail. The divers that found the wreakage have stated that all
flying surfaces are attached to the plane, though the canopy is missing.
3. The shape of the pilots looks to be a quick and merciful by the
report of one diver.
4. There is a report of pelicans that fly in that area, that is a
large bird.
Accidents unfortunately can happen, we have weather, objects, mechanical
failures, pilot issues, running out of gas and stresses placed on the
planes beyond design loads. As improperly executed Aerobatics can do or
sudden full stop inputs on the controls.
I am not saying to stop what your doing, it is your choice, discuss your
options. But be realistic, consider your opinion before placing it on
this list for the Archives to capture. This accident is unfortunate but
in no way is there any evidence of a structural issue, just the
opposite, the plane may have flown 2 kms with no one at the controls. I
do not know but the broken canopy may indicate such.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com <http://www.can-zacaviation.com/>
Designer Chris HeintzLetter from Chris Heintz
May 10, 2007:
As the designer of the Zodiac CH 601 series of aircraft, I take it very
personally when I hear of a fatal accident involving one of these
aircraft, especially when it involves elements of an in-flight break up.
With the introduction of the Light Sport Aircraft rule, I personally
re-calculated the entire Zodiac CH 601 XL design to confirm that it
exceeded all minimum LSA design requirements. The structure of the
design is comparable to the Alarus CH2000 FAR 23 certified aircraft (now
certified in more than 20 countries). The present Zodiac XL S-LSA model
is stressed to an ultimate +6/-3 g at 1,320 lbs.
Still, we have seen a disturbing number of accidents over the last year,
including the most recent one on May 2, 2007 (NTSB Identification:
DFW07LA102). Having evaluated the wreckage photos of a Zodiac crash in
2006, I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of
structural load <http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html>
tests on a production airframe. This will be done at the Zenair Ltd
factory in Canada. In order to make absolutely certain nothing is
missed, an independent structural engineer will confirm the findings of
these rigorous tests.
<http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/gif/601xl-cad-slsa6.jpg> General
View of the ZODIAC XL
While I remain fully confident that my Zodiac XL design will again be
found to be sound in every respect, it is important for builders and
pilots of this popular airplane to have full confidence in the integrity
of the aircraft. Findings of the tests will be communicated through this
website.
<http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/gif/601xl-cad-slsa7.jpg> General
View of the ZODIAC XL
Special note to Zodiac Pilots: The Zodiac aircraft has a large amount of
elevator control. I designed this feature so that if a pilot improperly
computes the C of G before flying, he/she will in most cases have enough
elevator authority to safely return and land. Also, like most of my
other aircraft designs, the Zodiac has excellent control authority at
low speeds. It is critical that this extra controllability not be
abused. Pushing the stick rapidly full forward at cruise speed - even
briefly - can result in serious damage to the airframe. Caution must be
exercised to not inadvertently push the stick rapidly to its limits (
i.e. while stretching, reaching into the rear baggage compartment,
etc.). Remember also that, without a doubt, you will always have a more
enjoyable flight if the weather is "severe clear".
Please continue to be safety-conscious whenever you fly. Always stay
within the design limits of your aircraft and well within your own
abilities as the pilot in command.
Chris Heintz.
_____
* Update: Photos of
<http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html> structural load
testing performed by Zenair Ltd. (photos posted on June 18, 2007).
_____
Update from Chris (July 2007):
"To 'certify' the CH601XL in the LSA category, a complete stress
analysis was performed and confirmed for the positive loads be static
tests. No permanent deformations were found at limit loads (i.e. +4 'g')
and no failures at ultimate loads (i.e. +6 'g'). The bending
deformations were in accordance with the analysis and the torsional
deformations were barely measurable, removing the possibility wing or
tail flutter.
<http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html> Load testing the
Zodiac XL by Zenair Ltd., June 2007
Load testing the Zodiac XL by Zenair Ltd. (June 16, 2007)
"Recently, Zenair Ltd. also performed static tests of the negative loads
on the wing, fuselage and horizontal tail (see photos) and the results
were similar to the positive load tests: No permanent deformation at
limit loads and no failure at ultimate 'g' loading. The bending and
torsional deformations were very small (the torsional twist was
practically zero!).
"I want to remind and reassure every owner, builder and pilot that not
only is the main structure well in compliance with the ASTM standards,
but also, 'accessories' such as the seat -belt attachments, battery
installation, etc... were all static tested with very satisfactory
results.
Owners should take note that the CH601XL has relatively light pitch
control forces and that it is possible to exceed the positive (+6) and
the negative (-3) ultimate load factors if forcing the controls in a
very rough or sudden manner. Please be reasonable: the fact that the
CH601XL can perform aerobatic maneuvers very well does not make it an
aerobatic design."
_____
A Brief Note from Zenith Aircraft Company:
We are pleased to report that our red and white factory demonstrator
Zodiac XL (N9601Z) is now six years old and has logged over 1,000 hours.
The aircraft has crisscrossed the United States dozens of times through
all kinds of conditions. We fly well over 300 demo flights per year in
this aircraft; that's over 1,800 passengers over the last 6 years.
Additionally, over 15,000 people have taken a seat in this aircraft over
the years at different shows and fly-ins, as well as at the factory. The
plane flies as well today as it did when it was new; we feel very
fortunate being the kit manufacturer for such a fine aircraft. The fact
that our demo plane still looks and performs as well as it does is a
testament to the design's integrity and robustness.
Message 63
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This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on
hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely
no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural
deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is
purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some
of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The
second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe
that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing
this issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next
week. I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for
that response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded
wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I
strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or
finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Intrument Panel Trim |
cookwithgas wrote:
> Dan:
>
> There is a product that is used in 1960's and early 70's automobiles (American)
as trim. I got mine from JC Whitney in black. It's Part number ZX890791Y
"Style A, Black 1/32" - 1/16" thick 7/16" height, Flexible Interior And Exterior
Trim"
>
> It is on sale right now for 16 doll hairs per roll.
>
> You can see it in this picture above the panel:
>
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_3_06_Canopy.JPG
>
> I want to thank Scott and others that answered my post. I've ordered the material
mentioned by Scott.
>
> Dan Dempsey (do not archive)
> http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/
>
>
>
> Scott Laughlin
> 601XL/Corvair
> Finished & Flying
> www.cooknwithgas.com
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169717#169717
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oH mY gOD hOW FUNNY!!
JUAN
-----Original Message-----
>From: Cory Emberson <bootless@earthlink.net>
>Sent: Mar 13, 2008 3:42 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 incident
>
>Hi Alberto,
>
>
>
>Im pretty sure he was making a joke theres a little sideways smiley icon
>at the end of his sentence (below).
>
>
>
>Take care,
>
>Cory
>
>
>
>>> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
>his feelings got hurt : ) <<
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes IGL
>Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:22 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
>
>
>
>Flydog,
>
>
>
>Nice culture you have, and just for your knowledge Im doing a favor to
>you, go to school or buy a map. Spain is at EUROPE,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Alberto Martin
>Iberplanes IGL
>http://www.iberplanes.es
>Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: Flydog1966@aol.com
>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:09 PM
>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 incident
>
>
>
>In a message dated 3/13/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>iberplanes@gmail.com writes:
>
>I have the impression, to be polite, that America only cares for
>themselves, sorry, themselves and their friends-cousins, UK, Canada,
>Australia...
>
>Spain, where is it? Never heard of it......oh... is the 8th world largest
>economy.....has a great industry, for example 1/3 of the A380 parts,
>Eurofighter, EADS, etc, a languaje spoken by 600 Milllon people...had a
>great world empire, has a great nation culture, and the list may go on for
>centuries...............
>
> Well I guess we should have acknowledged this guy in South America before
>his feelings got hurt : )
>do not archive
>
>
> _____
>
>
>It's Tax Time! Get <http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001>
>tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
>"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | XL Stress Analysis |
I'm a serial airplane builder/restorer currently working on a Maule
rebuild not a Zenith. I have met Chris, greatly admire his work and
will get to a Zenith. My day job is finite element structural analysis
of nuclear power plant components. In the course of my Maule rebuild
project, I did a finite element analysis of the Maule M7 and found that
the airframe could structurally tolerate a gross weight increase from
2500 lbs to 2700 lbs in the FAR Part 23 normal category. A detailed
finite element analysis can evaluate torsional stiffness, natural
frequencies and every imaginable loading condition. It is easier to do
a tube structure than a stressed skin, which will exhibit nonlinear
buckling, but the process can, at the very least, provide relative
comparisons of the bending and torsional capability of design changes
say extra ribs, baggage bays, fuel mass, natural frequencies or a
general comparison of the HD and XL wings. I'd personally be very
interested in hearing from anyone with experience in finite element
stress analysis applied to aircraft design and maybe the XL issue.
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith instrument panel trim |
George,
Sounds like a good solution. I was considering something like that too. I've
got some left over aluminum fuel line 3/8" that might work well.
Dan Dempsey
[quote="grs-pms(at)comcast.net"]On my HD instrument panel I have the usual projection
of the upper forward skin, resulting in a deadly-looking edge facing
the occupants. I slit a piece of soft 5/16 inch aluminum tubing to trim the
edge and held the tubing in place with a few U-shaped aluminum clips riveted
to the skin. I used a reinforced cutoff wheel in a Dremel tool to slit the aluminum
tubing.
I covered the aluminum tubing with resilient foam tubing which is sold in some
medical pharmacies as an aid to people who are hampered by stroke or arthritis.
It is intended to be slipped over pens, utensils etc to allow such things
to be gripped more easily. It has a 5/16 ID and 1 inch OD . I made some
effort to find a source of continuous lengths of this tubing, but finally settled
for the one foot lengths I could buy locally. I glued 4 lengths together
with contact cement and slit the resulting 4-foot tube to fit over the aluminum
tubing.
The foam tubing is a light tan color. I painted it with SEM brand "Color Coat"
paint, sold at auto paint stores for use on plastic car interior surfaces.
The seams between the 12 inch lengths are barely visible. The result is a
neat looking edge treatment which won't slice my skull open if I'm thrown into
it.
I hope this offers some ideas.
George Swinford
> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169723#169723
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I'll second that, It is good the lines of discussion are open on the
subject there is really no time spent on this worthwhile until a
definitive answer is found. Leave that to the experts.
And while were at it can we change the subject line on the emails at
least to read something other than CRASH or ACCIDENT quiet frankly I'm
sick of seeing it pop up in my inbox.
Well that's my .02 even though I have no vested interest in this as I am
building a 701.
John (Scratch building 701)
Kaufman, Tx
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Accidents
This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely
on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is
absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design
flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite
simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional
speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive.
In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested
twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do
you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty
analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is
addressing this issue yet another time. Their response is expected
before the end of next week. I believe that a rational thinking person
would be willing to wait for that response instead of immediately
pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz,
I strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop
building, or finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch
hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Message 69
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Has anyone built a manual trim system for a 701 or a 601. I really don't want more
buttons. I'd rather have a wheel or better yet a crank!
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169728#169728
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| Subject: | Instrument panel Design Stencils for Microsoft Visio |
Hi People,
While I was researching to build a 601XL, I decided to start designing
instrument panels. I use Microsoft Visio extensively so I decided to build a
Stencil library of instruments. Over the years, it has grown. I have
attempted to distribute (share) them by e-mail but they are WAY too large.
Several of you have gotten older versions.
I have finally found a website to host them for download.
Mark Townsend, of CH601.org has graciously volunteered to host my Visio
Stencils for download.
To download them, go to:
CH601.org
Builder Resources
Finishing touches
Dave's aircraft Instrument Panel Stencils for Microsoft Visio
Be sure to download the user guide. It will aid you in installation and
getting started.
If you have any questions or comments, please e-mail me directly. I only
check this list once or twice a month now. I have decided not to build and
have moved on to another project. I now fly down the highway. However, I
still intend to maintain the Stencil library.
Enjoy,
Dave Thompson
Dave.thompson@verizon.net
Westminster, CA
1963 Corvair convertible turbo Spyder
Message 71
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| Subject: | Ye Olde Continental |
Listers,
I am considering building a new 701. I've looked at the Aero-Vee and Great Plains
engines. I also want to consider a Continental 0200.
What I want to know is what would one expect to pay for a run-out 0200 and what
would it cost to to a SMOH?
Any answers will be appreciated.
Many thanks....
Email me at twalker@cableone.net
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169732#169732
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Take a look at the Sonex/AeroConversions Trim System:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/orders/trimfaq.html
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Manual trim
Has anyone built a manual trim system for a 701 or a 601. I really don't
want more buttons. I'd rather have a wheel or better yet a crank!
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the
things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the
bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your
sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169728#169728
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Thanks, I just emailed them.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169736#169736
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| Subject: | Re: Ye Olde Continental |
Tommy,
Ready to build another so soon?
Bob Spudis
do not archive
In a message dated 3/13/2008 10:14:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
twalker@cableone.net writes:
Listers,
I am considering building a new 701. I've looked at the Aero-Vee and Great
Plains engines. I also want to consider a Continental 0200.
What I want to know is what would one expect to pay for a run-out 0200 and
what would it cost to to a SMOH?
Any answers will be appreciated.
Many thanks....
Email me at twalker@cableone.net
--------
Tommy Walker
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
Message 75
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For some actual information I just received an e-mail from a reader of the list
who doesn't post and I thought I'd pass it along.
I was posted in the Australian Yahoo Zenith List.
> From: Sport Air Services - Zenith Australia
> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:29:46 -0700 (PDT)
> Local: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:29 am
> Subject: Re: Main Beach Gold Coast Crash
>
>
> Mr. Harry Mason, a colleague of Garry, has just returned after viewing
> the police video footage of the moment of impact with the water.
>
> He is certain and can say without a doubt that the aircraft did not
> break up during flight.
>
> To date pieces of Perspex canopy have been found, enough to establish
> a direction of flight prior to the aircraft entering the water. It is
> the assumption of the police and Mr. Mason that the aircraft most
> likely suffered a bird strike, which incapacitated the occupants,
> however the police are unable to state that as it 's a coroners
> matter.
>
> The other debris was found along with the propeller, in the water where
> the impact took place.
>
> It is suffice to say that the aircraft did not suffer a structural in
> flight failure as there is no evidence to support that.
>
> The search for the wreckage and bodies is continuing.
>
> Regards,
>
> Liezel
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169740#169740
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| Subject: | Re: Ye Olde Continental |
A run out without prop strike should be about 3-4000 but not much more than that.
Price 0 time since major overhaul looking about 18.5 k or so. Meaning a rebuild
runs about 14k. Thats what I've found so far.
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169741#169741
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I agree Jay, though I must admit that over the past couple days I have gotten caught
up in the emotional speculation myself. I now vow to go into my shop, and
make lots and lots of aluminum shavings in my pursuit of happiness. I anxiously
await Zenith's statement. One other comment I must make is that I would
consider myself a good judge of character, not one time have I ever felt as though
the folks at Zenith are anything other than honest, hard working down to
earth people with a great product.
[quote="Jaybannist(at)cs.com"]This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay;
which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no
proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural
deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely
emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of
you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second
time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe
that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this
issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next week.
I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for that
response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild
goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I strongly
suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or finish
it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
> [b]
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169744#169744
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That is a nice trim set up,think I'am going to change the elect. one to
manual. ,how about manual flaps? where could you find that ? thank's
Joe 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Manual trim
>
> Has anyone built a manual trim system for a 701 or a 601. I really don't
> want more buttons. I'd rather have a wheel or better yet a crank!
>
> Kevin
>
> --------
> Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the
> things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the
> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your
> sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169728#169728
>
>
>
Message 79
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I am an engineer, a Civil PE.
I've done lots of projects.
I worked at Boeing for some 10 years.
I spent lots of time in the shops working with people.
People have emotions. I've seen problems that were
compounded by the feelings. I had to solve the problems.
Sometimes people respond to a perception.
The perception may or may not tell me what is causing the
problem. But the perception is real - to whoever has it.
My job was to look at the problem and fix it. The perceptions
sometimes got in the way. It is hard to solve some problems.
Doubt is a strong motivator.
I have a friend who designs transporters to move big stuff down
the road. Gas turbines and wind generator blades. He learned
his craft on the job. He designs structures that are strong
enough, but not to strong (heavy). He borrowed my CH601XL
plans and analyzed them. His conclusion - it is a +- 6G airplane.
He flys with me regularly.
I am reluctant to go in on the independent analysis. Why?
- what is the scope of the project
- where are the work plan + deliverables
- what is being analyzed
- what is the hypothesis
- what are the consultant's qualifications + background
- who is the project manager
- what are the tasks
- the job could be big
- what about the designer
- shouldn't he be involved
It'd be nice if an aeronautical engineering graduate student
would develop a model and investigate lots of failure modes.
Hey - maybe I should get another degree + do this for the thesis.
You know that the stick can be called a wing removal lever.
I understand the need to be sure. Coming late to flying, it
doesn't come 'naturally' to me. I have to reassure myself alot.
I compensate by telling myself that if I have to think about it
I'll be less likely to make a major mistake.
A good designer wants to do a good job.
We need to have confidence - all of us.
I've flown 633Z for 4 years. I was never concerned that it would fall
apart. I have been concerned about being able to maintain control when
I'm getting thrown around by turbulence - but I just kept flying - fly
the airplane - fly the airplane.
Cheers, Joe E, PhD (piled higher + deeper), PE (professional engineer)
N633Z @ BFI
CH601XL, 505 hours
Jabiru 3300, 64x49 Sensenich wood prop
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
do not archive
Message 80
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Hi Jay
Thank you for your comments. Apparently you have seen a report by the
professional engineer who monitored the reports. I have been unable to
locate the report. Could I ask you to send me a copy or post a link to the
report so that I can read it also? I would very much like to see the
analysis that was done. Thank you.
Terry Phillips, P.E., retired (I stopped renewing my engineering license
after I retired)
At 08:45 PM 3/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice.
>The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you
>really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty
>analysis or load test?
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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