Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:42 AM - Re: Fish Eye Update (AV8TOR09)
2. 03:57 AM - Re: Re: Accident (n801bh@netzero.com)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Ye Olde Continental (NYTerminat@aol.com)
4. 08:38 AM - Re: Accident (Gig Giacona)
5. 08:59 AM - Latest Info on Australian 601XL crash (link provided) (Andrew Lieser)
6. 09:18 AM - Re: canopy for 601XL? (PatrickW)
7. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Fish Eye Update (steve)
8. 09:38 AM - Re: Latest Info on Australian 601XL crash (link provided) (steve)
9. 09:49 AM - XL Fuselage Longeron Matching (PatrickW)
10. 12:37 PM - High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? (Jay Maynard)
11. 01:11 PM - Re: High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? (Jaybannist@cs.com)
12. 01:37 PM - HDS Tuft Testing Video (JG)
13. 01:59 PM - Annoying Rotax 912ULS engine vibration (Les Goldner)
14. 02:00 PM - How much to budget for a 180hp O-360 (fixed pitch) (seattle)
15. 02:29 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Dave Nixon)
16. 02:47 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Roger Pritchard)
17. 04:53 PM - Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg (Peter A. Keast)
18. 04:54 PM - Re: Annoying Rotax 912ULS engine vibration (Roger Lee)
19. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: canopy for 601XL? (David Downey)
20. 05:57 PM - Torque values (philip smith)
21. 06:03 PM - Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg (Bryan Martin)
22. 06:08 PM - Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg (David Downey)
23. 06:16 PM - Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg (Gary Ray)
24. 06:18 PM - Re: Fish Eye Update (AV8TOR09)
25. 06:21 PM - Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg (Ashcraft, Keith - AES)
26. 07:06 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Al Hays)
27. 07:18 PM - Re: High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? (John Smith)
28. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Fish Eye Update (LRM)
29. 07:43 PM - Re: Torque values (Craig Payne)
30. 08:01 PM - Re: canopy for 601XL? (PatrickW)
31. 08:42 PM - Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (Ron Lendon)
32. 08:44 PM - Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Re: Fish Eye Update (Dan)
33. 08:46 PM - Re: High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? (Ron Lendon)
34. 09:48 PM - Re: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis (thesumak@aol.com)
35. 10:22 PM - Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Re: Fish Eye Update (steve)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
Glad to see that you found the culprit ! One other cause you might want to be aware
of concerning fish eyes is silicone. I used to do backyard custom auto paint
jobs and the guy I used to work with absolutely forbid any kind of silicone
based lubricant to be anywhere near the garage. We were painting a 69 GTX when
it started to fisheye and we couldn't figure out why. Then we noticed the owners
friend was ARMOURALL'ing his tires outside the garage which was at least
50 to 60 ft away from our intake air screens but that was still to close. Long
story short, high dollar custom paint job ruined and garage permanently contaminated.
Customer paid for paint job twice, after all he bought his friend with
him! :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169955#169955
Message 2
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Thanks Ken for your insight..
Building an experimental plane is a task that is not to be taken lightly
. Going the route of others before you is challenging enough but doing w
hat I did, installing a rather large and powerful V-8 in an 801 is almos
t over the top. I have been racing, modifying, tinkering all my life so
I have a pretty good perspective on what might result.On street cars, ra
ce cars,race boats and god only knows what else I have tweaked all you h
ave to do if something didn't work out as planned was to be pulled home,
into the pits or off the side of the road. On a plane its a life changi
ng experience. !!! So far I feel comfortable I have addressed all the is
sues that could kill me, and there are a million and one of them that ha
ve tried to anticipate. My plane might run another 50 years or it could
kill me in the next 50 seconds of flight........ Thats why we call them
"EXPERIMENTAL"
Push the envelope within reason................
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Ken Lilja <planes_by_ken@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Yes, IF I did the modification I would stress test with sandbags on a pr
oof wing. I did stress testing on a few mods I designed to certified ai
rcraft (field approval 337). THINKING about a mod is not the same as do
ing it. THINKING about a mod is probably the best way to avoid making a
mod. Also, any change is a new design. Reinforced cabin step attach m
ight effect the rear spar attach. How about a swing down instrument pan
el? Access panels in any new location? They all could have unintended
adverse effects.
Ken Lilja
Gig Giacona wrote:
net>How do you propose to test this new design? Are you going to stress
it as the Zenith design as been stressed?planes_by_ken(at)bellsout wrote
: I am giving thought to installing diagonal ribs between the stock one
s. I seem to remember that diagonal ribs are good in torsion. The Erco
upe uses this design. Be careful or random strengthening as this could
shift loads to other areas and cause more problems. What I would like to
know is if they had wing lockers, what type of aileron hinge and how mu
ch attention was given to aileron rigging especially cable tension.Ken L
ilja
========================
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===
_____________________________________________________________
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. C
lick now!
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lmiDcjNhDduNYuEQunE1mAr8DsQQa/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ye Olde Continental |
Tommy,
Good for you, go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!
In a message dated 3/15/2008 12:06:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
twalker@cableone.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Bob,
I got to keep moving. Don't want any rust accumulating on these old joints.
Also, I've had 3 offers on my 701.
I am negotiating on a 701 project. The owner, God rest his soul, passed
away and his sone is selling the project.
So if I get to buy the unfinished project, I will have something to do, and
possibly get $5.75 per hour for my labor.....
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
Message 4
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Bill, I'm sorry you took my reply as ambivalence. It isn't. I simply was trying
to communicate how issues like the one that MAY be effecting the 601XL have been
dealt with in certified aircraft without major or even minor design changes.
SFAR 73 being one of the more extreme examples.
For those not familiar with SFAR 73 it was a regulation requireing additional
training for those flying Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters. It was to deal with
an issue that could result from taking the helicopters into a negative G condition
thesumak(at)aol.com wrote:
> Thanks for your response Gig. From what Rick and Mark say, it appears that the
Zenith folks do not share in your ambivalence concerning a possible problem
with elevator authority in the XL. I cant predict the future, but I would not
be surprised if Zenith offers a mod that is something along the lines of what
Sabrina has already done on her own.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170012#170012
Message 5
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| Subject: | Latest Info on Australian 601XL crash (link provided) |
Hello everyone! This may be old news to some already but I figured I should
post it anyway. Here is the link to the latest news as reported by
GoldCoast on the Zodiac crash there about a week ago it an srticle that
appeared today 3/15/08:
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/03/15/8879_gold-coast-news.html
It does say near the bottom of the article that "both wings were still
attached" and that a bird strike is being considered the most likely cause
to the accident. This is just a reporting and not gospel so its best to
still wait for an "official" cause to be determined hopefully later this
week. On another note my rudder kit arrived this week and I plan on
starting sometime in the next few days. If anyone has any helpful
advice (common mistakes) for this section of the kit it would be much
appreciated I assure you! I encourage everyone to keep their heads up and
out of the dust until it settles.
--
Andrew Lieser
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: canopy for 601XL? |
planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co wrote:
> Does anyone know of someone trying to match a RV6/7 canopy to the 601XL fuse?
>
> The planview fuselage width distributions between the two planes, while similar
in overall width, have substantial differences in terms of where the maximum
girth point occurs and also in the direction of taper.
Has anyone done any further exploration of canopy options such as this...?
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170019#170019
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
Well I thought I had it all solved. Then AGAIN yesterday the fish eyes came
to my spray booth....
I ve added two inline filters, new hose and cleaned the primer surface
really well.. I now think that I somehow got contaminates in the primer
coats. When I apply the finish paint it comes thru and produced the eyes.
So today the battle will continue. More later..
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "AV8TOR09" <av8tor09@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 12:38 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
> Glad to see that you found the culprit ! One other cause you might want to
> be aware of concerning fish eyes is silicone. I used to do backyard custom
> auto paint jobs and the guy I used to work with absolutely forbid any kind
> of silicone based lubricant to be anywhere near the garage. We were
> painting a 69 GTX when it started to fisheye and we couldn't figure out
> why. Then we noticed the owners friend was ARMOURALL'ing his tires outside
> the garage which was at least 50 to 60 ft away from our intake air screens
> but that was still to close. Long story short, high dollar custom paint
> job ruined and garage permanently contaminated. Customer paid for paint
> job twice, after all he bought his friend with him! :D
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169955#169955
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Latest Info on Australian 601XL crash (link provided) |
My current advise is to plan on polishing the aluminum. Painting will
be expensive and heavy (25 pounds + - ).
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Lieser
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 8:55 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Latest Info on Australian 601XL crash (link
provided)
Hello everyone! This may be old news to some already but I figured I
should post it anyway. Here is the link to the latest news as reported
by GoldCoast on the Zodiac crash there about a week ago it an srticle
that appeared today 3/15/08:
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/03/15/8879_gold-coast-news.html
It does say near the bottom of the article that "both wings were still
attached" and that a bird strike is being considered the most likely
cause to the accident. This is just a reporting and not gospel so its
best to still wait for an "official" cause to be determined hopefully
later this week. On another note my rudder kit arrived this week and I
plan on starting sometime in the next few days. If anyone has any
helpful advice (common mistakes) for this section of the kit it would be
much appreciated I assure you! I encourage everyone to keep their heads
up and out of the dust until it settles.
--
Andrew Lieser
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Message 9
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| Subject: | XL Fuselage Longeron Matching |
Question: does the curvature of the upper fuselage longerons match the curvature
of the lower fuselage longerons?
In other words, if you were to lay the upper left cabin longeron on top of the
lower left cabin longeron, would they match...? Same of course with the upper
& lower ones on the right side.
I'm trying to figure out how to make the new welded steel 6B6-4 piece (the combo
engine bracket - canopy hinge - brs bracket) fit square against the firewall
and at the same time fit square on the upper longeron.
The current set of drawings doesn't show the new 6B6-4 piece, but here's a picture of it: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/Zenith601XLBRSBrackets/photo#5148684881001422818
I'm thinking that some trimming and possibly some re-bending of the upper longerons
will be required, but was curious what other builders were doing in this
area.
I am leery of introducing a compound curvature into the forward side skins that
would result from different shapes of the upper cross section versus the lower
cross section, so if indeed they do match a possible solution may be to disassemble
my fuselage and use my lower longerons as templates for my upper longerons.
Thoughts?
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170030#170030
Message 10
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| Subject: | High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? |
I'm sitting down to design the paint and graphics on my Zodiac. I'd like
higher resolution three-view drawings to work with than the ones on AMD's
site. Anyone got anything like this?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
Message 11
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| Subject: | High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? |
Jay,
I have accurate three-view drawings, but they are for a 601XL with the William
Wynne cowling and nose bowl for a Corvair engine. I have them in AutoCAD2000 and
pdf. If you still want them, just ask.
Jay in Dallas
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
>
>I'm sitting down to design the paint and graphics on my Zodiac. I'd like
>higher resolution three-view drawings to work with than the ones on AMD's
>site. Anyone got anything like this?
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | HDS Tuft Testing Video |
For some relief from accident speculation, how about a good news
story.....
Viktor in Switzerland has been videoing tuft testing on an HDS wing.
There are links to the videos and an analysis of the results at
http://www.stolspeed.com/601-hds-video/
There are also photos of his HDS flights into the Sahara desert and to
the northern-most tip of Europe. Viktor now has nearly 1000hrs on his
much loved HDS.
Tailwinds always,
JG
Message 13
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| Subject: | Annoying Rotax 912ULS engine vibration |
I need help solving a Rotax 912 ULS (100-hp) vibration problem.
For the first 20 hours of flying my new Z-701 there was no noticeable
vibration. When I changed the Warpdrive prop pitch at 20 hours total
time
(on both plane and engine), the vibration started. It vibrates at all
RPMs
except at idle, where it seems the same as it was before. It=92s not
extreme,
but I won=92t fly my 701 until it=92s fixed.
I=92m reasonably certain that the problem is not related to resetting
the
prop. The prop is new. I changed the pitch from 12=B0 to 11.4=B0 very
carefully,
just as I did initially (when there was no vibration problem). After the
vibration was noted I reset the pitch back where it was but the engine
still
vibrates. I reset it 3-times and am certain the pitch of each of the
3-blades and the way they track are very accurate (variation about .1=B0
and
1mm), and the blades are seated properly. Because of this I feel the
problem
just happen to occur at the same time I changed the pitch.
So far, to try to solve this problem, I have changes the spark plugs
(they
all look good), re-sync=92d the carbs, cleaned the fuel filters, cleaned
the
main, and idle jets (no dirt), checked the cylinder pressures (all
180#),
checked to make certain that the choke and throttle cables were set
properly
and are not binding (they are OK), and examined the engine mounts (look
OK).
Switching mags does not change the amount of vibration.
I asked for help from the tech at Lockwood (who is a great resource). He
thought the vibes may be caused by a dirty idle jet (said this is a
common
new-engine problem). I also went to the Rotax-engine Matronics group and
checked out or eliminated almost all their suggestions (sticky choke
cables,
etc.). The two recommendation I did not check-out were: (1) Bad gas: (I
use
91 Octane Chevron MoGas and no one else on the field who uses this stuff
has
reported problems), and (2) A =93sprag clutch circlip=94 coming undone
(or
breaking) and going through the sprag clutch gears. This came from
someone
who had vibration and found the slipper clutch had been incorrectly
installed. He said there are three disk springs that must oppose each
other;
his were installed in the same plane, which eventually damaged the sprag
clutch so the engine would not start. (I am looking at the simplest
solutions first. This issue probably resulted from a rebuild. Since my
engine only has few hours on it, my vibes are probably not related.)
Any suggestions to help resolve this vibration problem, from 912=92ers
who
have had similar experiences, would be welcome.
Les
Message 14
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| Subject: | How much to budget for a 180hp O-360 (fixed pitch) |
Thinking about starting a CH640 project this summer. Any advice on how much to
budget for a mid time O-360 with a solid shaft? Thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170060#170060
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I am in.
Dave Nixon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170065#170065
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
All,
How about adding do not archive?
Roger (from NH)
Al Hays <alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com> wrote:
I'm in.
On Mar 12, 2008, at 11:50 AM, ashontz wrote:
>
> I'm in.
>
> Just post an "I'm in", no other comments for now, just to keep it a
> clean list of responses.
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169266#169266
>
>
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg |
While drilling the 601 XL rudder skin (already had cleko'd every third hole)
the drill jumped out of the pilot hole and created a new hole on rib 4..i'm
kind of feeling a little sick right now.I expect I can't rivet that hole,
and will likely have to replace the skin..and the rib4.and I'm thinking,
probably a new skin will not line up with the existing holes, so I have to
build a whole new rudder kit.please check out the pics and let me know if
there is any way around this.
The new hole is 2 mm to the outside of the rivet line (at 7mm from the edge
as opposed to 9). maybe I can still use that hole? but what about the pilot
hole (not drilled thru rib.still just pilot hole in skin)
Thanks for the help,
Peter
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Annoying Rotax 912ULS engine vibration |
static and dynamic balance absolutely has to be ruled out.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170087#170087
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: canopy for 601XL? |
Hello Patrick;
I went so far as to model the XL fuselage in CAD as well as the upper longeron,
seat pan, forward deck, and roll over structure for the RV9 (same canopy and
roll structure as the 6/7).
The major differences:
The fuselage planform tapers from the firewall to the aft end of the cockpit in
a straight line and the upper longerons are rather unsubstantial in the XL.
The fuselage on the RV tapers from the firewall to the panel, then is fairly constant
from the panel to the aft end of the cockpit where it again tapers into
the tailcone.
I wanted to use the RV tip up canopy mounted like the XL, but with the aft roll
structure and transparency in the upper fuse and the roll structure in the canopy
frame.
This would have required a substantial change to the upper longerons as well as
some consideration to the kick loads that develop due to the bend at the panel.
The canopy width is compatible with about a 2.5-3" increase in upper longeron
spacing at the panel. Since I was planning to use the WW Corvair installation,
the plan was to use his nosebowl, measure the tangent between the outer edge
of his nosebowl and a 100 inch radius arc at the panel to determine firewall
width at the upper longeron. I was planning to widen the spar carry through
to keep the fuse cross section similar to the original. I had not yet figured
out what I was going to do with framing element between the panel and the lower
lobe because I was torn with what I perceived a less that CH elegant TD gear
installation concept.
The root end attachment of the wings was going to remain the same at the aft spar
and the wider forward carry through would have cost me that amount of span.
All of this was quite doable but my project came to a halt before I went further
than some model work and some CAD work.
Hope that gives you some bit of perspective into the task. I was assuming a loss
of about 25# of payload to accommodate the changes.
planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co wrote:
> Does anyone know of someone trying to match a RV6/7 canopy to the 601XL fuse?
>
> The planview fuselage width distributions between the two planes, while similar
in overall width, have substantial differences in terms of where the maximum
girth point occurs and also in the direction of taper.
Has anyone done any further exploration of canopy options such as this...?
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170019#170019
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Message 20
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I know one of you - or mabe more - will know what the *" rule of thumb
value in inch lb " is added to the torque wrench* when tightening AN365 3,
4, and 5 self locking (fiber lock type) nuts. I have the straight torque
values - is there a reference for the additive values?
Phil CH-701 in Southern Idaho
90% done about three months *or so* to go!
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg |
You might be able to fill the pilot hole with an A3 solid rivet (or
even a pulled rivet) if the holes aren't too close together. These are
the size rivets used to attach the nut-plates for access panels.
Judging by your photos, this looks like it will work. A countersunk
rivet will hardly be noticed. You might even be able to fill the hole
with metal by brazing or welding. If you're planning on painting the
plane, you can probably just use some body filler and paint over it.
One rivet slightly out of position and the extra hole isn't going to
matter as far as the structure is concerned in that area. This is just
a cosmetic issue, I wouldn't be overly concerned with it. I don't
think you'll need to replace the skin.
On Mar 15, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Peter A. Keast wrote:
>
> While drilling the 601 XL rudder skin (already had cleko'd every
> third hole)
> the drill jumped out of the pilot hole and created a new hole on rib
> 4..i'm
> kind of feeling a little sick right now.I expect I can't rivet that
> hole,
> and will likely have to replace the skin..and the rib4.and I'm
> thinking,
> probably a new skin will not line up with the existing holes, so I
> have to
> build a whole new rudder kit.please check out the pics and let me
> know if
> there is any way around this.
>
> The new hole is 2 mm to the outside of the rivet line (at 7mm from
> the edge
> as opposed to 9). maybe I can still use that hole? but what about
> the pilot
> hole (not drilled thru rib.still just pilot hole in skin)
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> Peter
> <020.jpg><022.jpg>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg |
not the prettiest fix - but would have met the MRB (Material Review Board) requirements
at any of the big companies I have worked for...
Open the through drilled hole in the skin to just clear the head of the rivet and
pull the rivet in the hole in the rib flange. Locate and drill a rivet hole
on each side of the bad installation, with correct edge distance in both the
rib flange and from the edge of the hole in the skin that the rivet head is filled
with. The new rivet holes should be at least .25" from the edge of the opening
in the skin to the center of the new hole.
If you do a clean job opening the hole in the skin (it will be oval shaped) and
the adjacent new fasteners, you can apply some green 3M spot putty to fill the
hole onto the rivet head in the bad hole and most people will never see it or
the extra two rivets.
Sounds like you might be using a slow drill. Fast is good, faster is better, fastest
is best!
"Peter A. Keast" <peterkeast@cox.net> wrote:
While drilling the 601 XL rudder skin (already had cleko'd every third hole)
the drill jumped out of the pilot hole and created a new hole on rib 4..i'm
kind of feeling a little sick right now.I expect I can't rivet that hole,
and will likely have to replace the skin..and the rib4.and I'm thinking,
probably a new skin will not line up with the existing holes, so I have to
build a whole new rudder kit.please check out the pics and let me know if
there is any way around this.
The new hole is 2 mm to the outside of the rivet line (at 7mm from the edge
as opposed to 9). maybe I can still use that hole? but what about the pilot
hole (not drilled thru rib.still just pilot hole in skin)
Thanks for the help,
Peter
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg |
Peter
I think you are over reacting.
If you dimple the pilot hole and fill it with a flush 3-2 solid rivet it
will be nearly invisible. then use the slightly off center
hole for the pop rivet. If the bottom of the rivet interferes with a rib
you may have to clearance this area also or place
a 3-3 solid flush rivet into a dimpled pilot hole and dimpled rib flange
I dropped my rudder skin just before final riveting. I had to order a new
skin and it was not hard to back drill the new
skin from the old skin used as a template. Then it fit the ribs perfectly
but this is the $100 dollar fix. I think the rivet at 2 cents is a better
option.
Gary Ray
601XL
davgray@sbcglobal.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Keast" <peterkeast@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg
>
> While drilling the 601 XL rudder skin (already had cleko'd every third
hole)
> the drill jumped out of the pilot hole and created a new hole on rib
4..i'm
> kind of feeling a little sick right now.I expect I can't rivet that hole,
> and will likely have to replace the skin..and the rib4.and I'm thinking,
> probably a new skin will not line up with the existing holes, so I have to
> build a whole new rudder kit.please check out the pics and let me know if
> there is any way around this.
>
> The new hole is 2 mm to the outside of the rivet line (at 7mm from the
edge
> as opposed to 9). maybe I can still use that hole? but what about the
pilot
> hole (not drilled thru rib.still just pilot hole in skin)
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> Peter
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
1:27 PM
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
Steve
Sorry to hear you are still having problems. I re-read your initial post and
I did not see where you used a silicone/grease/wax remover prior to painting.
I do not have alot of experience painting aluminum but I have painted dozens of
cars and we used PREPSALL 900 as a final wipedown on every job. We would spray
mist it on and wipe of with lint free rags then do a final tack rag wipe and
spray away. We never had a problem with fish eyes except the one time described
in the previous post. That was caused by silicone being introduced to the
paint finish as we sprayed from an outside source.
You might want to check compatibility with your paint products before using a
PREPSALL type product. We never had any issues with it and it worked great. A
good thing to remember (I think SKYHAWG pointed it out earlier) is that you can
not be too clean or careful in your prep and paint work. Always use some sort
of disposable latex/nitrile/etc..gloves and dont touch the cleaned surface
with anything after being wiped down. The grease from your fingers can and will
show thru your paint.
I hope you find whats causing your problem, maybe this will be some help to you,
GOOD LUCK!! :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170099#170099
Message 25
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| Subject: | Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg |
Hey Peter,
See if you can get by with adding a rivet to each side of the hole,(between
the clecos and oops hole). Even if the oops hole is drilled in the middle
of "nothing" you can always put a rivet in, just to fill the hole. I have s
een planes where the skin was drilled totally wrong for the rib location, a
nd they just filled in the holes with rivets.
Good luck,
Keith
CH701 -- scratch
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
***************************************************************************
******
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Peter A. Keast
Sent: Sat 3/15/2008 5:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Emailing: 020.jpg, 022.jpg
While drilling the 601 XL rudder skin (already had cleko'd every third hole
)
the drill jumped out of the pilot hole and created a new hole on rib 4..i'm
kind of feeling a little sick right now.I expect I can't rivet that hole,
and will likely have to replace the skin..and the rib4.and I'm thinking,
probably a new skin will not line up with the existing holes, so I have to
build a whole new rudder kit.please check out the pics and let me know if
there is any way around this.
The new hole is 2 mm to the outside of the rivet line (at 7mm from the edge
as opposed to 9). maybe I can still use that hole? but what about the pilo
t
hole (not drilled thru rib.still just pilot hole in skin)
Thanks for the help,
Peter
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are in
tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr
essed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporati
on. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the pres
ence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any viru
s transmitted by this e-mail.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
Okay Roger,
I'm out.
Do not archive
Al (from VA)
On Mar 15, 2008, at 5:43 PM, Roger Pritchard wrote:
> All,
>
> How about adding do not archive?
>
> Roger (from NH)
>
> Al Hays <alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com> wrote:
>
> I'm in.
> On Mar 12, 2008, at 11:50 AM, ashontz wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm in.
> >
> > Just post an "I'm in", no other comments for now, just to keep it a
> > clean list of responses.
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? |
Jay,
I would like a copy of your 3D drawings as I am building the same engine/cowling
combination.
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
Jay,
I have accurate three-view drawings, but they are for a 601XL with the William
Wynne cowling and nose bowl for a Corvair engine. I have them in AutoCAD2000 and
pdf. If you still want them, just ask.
Jay in Dallas
Jay Maynard wrote:
>
>I'm sitting down to design the paint and graphics on my Zodiac. I'd like
>higher resolution three-view drawings to work with than the ones on AMD's
>site. Anyone got anything like this?
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
The only way you now can get a decent paint job is to either strip it all
off, start over or lightly sand out you eyes, add a generous amount of fish
eye additive and give it another final coat. My experience which is a lot,
is that paint with fish eye additives will last as long as any others. All I
can do is lead you to the water, the drinking is up to you. LRM
www.skyhawg.com.
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve" <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
> Well I thought I had it all solved. Then AGAIN yesterday the fish eyes
> came to my spray booth....
> I ve added two inline filters, new hose and cleaned the primer surface
> really well.. I now think that I somehow got contaminates in the primer
> coats. When I apply the finish paint it comes thru and produced the eyes.
> So today the battle will continue. More later..
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AV8TOR09" <av8tor09@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 12:38 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
>
>>
>> Glad to see that you found the culprit ! One other cause you might want
>> to be aware of concerning fish eyes is silicone. I used to do backyard
>> custom auto paint jobs and the guy I used to work with absolutely forbid
>> any kind of silicone based lubricant to be anywhere near the garage. We
>> were painting a 69 GTX when it started to fisheye and we couldn't figure
>> out why. Then we noticed the owners friend was ARMOURALL'ing his tires
>> outside the garage which was at least 50 to 60 ft away from our intake
>> air screens but that was still to close. Long story short, high dollar
>> custom paint job ruined and garage permanently contaminated. Customer
>> paid for paint job twice, after all he bought his friend with him! :D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169955#169955
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Date: 3/15/2008 2:36 PM
>
>
Message 29
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|
The stuff I read said that you measure the drag torque with your torque
wrench before the nut starts touching the surface to be clamped. For the
small nuts I couldn't do this with my CompuTorq3 electronic wrench as it
doesn't start registering until 20 or so inch-pounds. I guessed around 5
inch-pounds. What I finally found that helped was table 7-2 in AC 43.13-1B
(Acceptable Methods.). "Minimum prevailing torque values for re-used
self-locking nuts". This tells you how much drag torque a SL nut needs to
have for it to be safe to reuse it. I reasoned that this must be a pretty
good guide to the minimum drag in a *new* SL nut.
For fine threads the table says:
7/16-20 8 in-lbs
1/2-20 10 in-lbs
9/16-18 13 in-lbs
.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of philip smith
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Torque values
I know one of you - or mabe more - will know what the " rule of thumb value
in inch lb " is added to the torque wrench when tightening AN365 3, 4, and
5 self locking (fiber lock type) nuts. I have the straight torque values -
is there a reference for the additive values?
Phil CH-701 in Southern Idaho
90% done about three months or so to go!
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: canopy for 601XL? |
Thanks for the update, Dave.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170115#170115
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
While I must admit this thread has had some interesting perspectives, I am not
in. The reason for this is, I have confidence in Chris Heintz and his designs,
which are many. I've had the good fortune to hear him speak at SnF one year
and also spend about 1.5 hours with him one on one. I chose the CH601XL because
it meets my flying needs and expectations.
Entirely scratch building the wings gives me a good perspective on the strength
of the design. Experience wise I have spent several years in a structural R&D
lab with Chrysler Corporation. While it wasn't aircraft, making many iterative
changes of structure and smashing it into a brick wall at 30 miles per hour
does give me a different view.
Of all the reports it is clear to me more speculation than facts have inspired
this debate. I reserve the right to be wrong here but I repeat I am out.
Do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170120#170120
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
Hi Steve: Sorry that you are having problems with your painting. I briefly
glanced at your original post of your problem, but don't remember the
details of your original problem or your prep technique. You are getting
several opinions which don't seem to be solving the problem so I will add my
2 cents. I painted mainly commercial vehicles (trucks) for about 15 years of
which about 10 of them was owning my own shop. My speculation is that you
are actually creating the problem in your final wash down procedure. If you
are using a product for your final wash down such as prepsol or acrili-clean
They will leave a residue under some conditions which will fisheye. Since
you already have the problem I would recommend that you wet sand with the
appropriate wet/dry sandpaper. In your water bucket that you are going to
wet your sandpaper with mix in a little Joy dishwashing liquid for a
lubricant. Use only Joy, not any other detergent. When you are done sanding
wipe down with a clean damp rag to remove all sanding residue. Rinse and
ring out as necessary until it is all clean and let dry. This is your final
wash so don't get any more finger prints on it. When it is thoroughly dry
and you are ready to paint very lightly use a tack rag to wipe it down. Use
a very light touch, you are only picking up any dust which has landed on the
surface, rubbing hard will only add to your problems. When you begin
spraying do not use any fisheye additive!! It is a flow enhancer and at this
stage you don't want that. For your first coat spray a very light color coat
and let it flash off thoroughly, about 20 minutes. Don't be in a hurry. I
know that by now you are anxious, but relax and it will turn out fine. At
this stage you may still see fisheye pocking thru, but be patient. Spray
another very light coat and let it flash off just like the first. By your
third coat it should be leveling nicely and hopefully no more fisheyes.
Remember that when you apply a heavy coat you are reflowing the previous
coats so don't apply to heavily or the fisheyes will reappear. You have to
get the balance of flowing your final coats for a good finish with a minimum
of orange peel and yet keeping it dry enough so that it does not release any
possible contaminates which are locked down by your first 2 mist coats. If I
can clarify anything I have said here just asks. Good luck. Dan.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
Well I thought I had it all solved. Then AGAIN yesterday the fish eyes came
to my spray booth....
I ve added two inline filters, new hose and cleaned the primer surface
really well.. I now think that I somehow got contaminates in the primer
coats. When I apply the finish paint it comes thru and produced the eyes.
So today the battle will continue. More later..
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "AV8TOR09" <av8tor09@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 12:38 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
> Glad to see that you found the culprit ! One other cause you might want to
> be aware of concerning fish eyes is silicone. I used to do backyard custom
> auto paint jobs and the guy I used to work with absolutely forbid any kind
> of silicone based lubricant to be anywhere near the garage. We were
> painting a 69 GTX when it started to fisheye and we couldn't figure out
> why. Then we noticed the owners friend was ARMOURALL'ing his tires outside
> the garage which was at least 50 to 60 ft away from our intake air screens
> but that was still to close. Long story short, high dollar custom paint
> job ruined and garage permanently contaminated. Customer paid for paint
> job twice, after all he bought his friend with him! :D
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169955#169955
>
>
>
--
Checked by AVG.
2:36 PM
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: High-res Zodiac three-view drawings? |
Jay,
I would like DWG or DXF versions of your cad files. I'm using ViaCad and am buiding
the same setup as you.
Thanks,
do not archive.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170121#170121
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sign-on for structural analysis |
I=99m building from a regular kit, but I also just finished my first
wing (with wing locker) and though I=99m just a grunt, I saw nothing t
hat would
give me pause.=C2-=C2- I do however take very seriously
the designers warning about airframe stress associated with abrupt or accide
ntal elevator
movement but I have faith that Zenith will take a closer look at that.=C2
- I have no interest in helping to fund an
independent analysis.
Bill
=C2-
Do not archive
=C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:39 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sign-on for structural analysis
While I must admit this thread has had some interesting perspectives, I am n
ot
in. The reason for this is, I have confidence in Chris Heintz and his desig
ns,
which are many. I've had the good fortune to hear him speak at SnF one year
and
also spend about 1.5 hours with him one on one. I chose the CH601XL because
it
meets my flying needs and expectations.
Entirely scratch building the wings gives me a good perspective on the stren
gth
of the design. Experience wise I have spent several years in a structural R
&D
lab with Chrysler Corporation. While it wasn't aircraft, making many iterat
ive
changes of structure and smashing it into a brick wall at 30 miles per hour
does
give me a different view.
Of all the reports it is clear to me more speculation than facts have inspir
ed
this debate. I reserve the right to be wrong here but I repeat I am out.
Do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170120#170120
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fish Eye Update |
Thanks Dan. I will paint again tomorrow and report. Joy ? I ve heard that
before and I assure you that the paint application will be absolutely clear.
Clean surface, clean compressor air, correct air temperature, well you
understand..
Thanks to you and the others here on this site. This project is a
learning. The painting was the problem but its all coming to a good
ending....
Also, maybe I expect too much perfection.... only I see these
imperfections. My neighbors dont. My wife doesnt, so maybe its just me...
Steves Paint Service...............................NOT!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan" <dan@hillsgun.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: ***SPAM*** Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
> Hi Steve: Sorry that you are having problems with your painting. I briefly
> glanced at your original post of your problem, but don't remember the
> details of your original problem or your prep technique. You are getting
> several opinions which don't seem to be solving the problem so I will add
> my
> 2 cents. I painted mainly commercial vehicles (trucks) for about 15 years
> of
> which about 10 of them was owning my own shop. My speculation is that you
> are actually creating the problem in your final wash down procedure. If
> you
> are using a product for your final wash down such as prepsol or
> acrili-clean
> They will leave a residue under some conditions which will fisheye. Since
> you already have the problem I would recommend that you wet sand with the
> appropriate wet/dry sandpaper. In your water bucket that you are going to
> wet your sandpaper with mix in a little Joy dishwashing liquid for a
> lubricant. Use only Joy, not any other detergent. When you are done
> sanding
> wipe down with a clean damp rag to remove all sanding residue. Rinse and
> ring out as necessary until it is all clean and let dry. This is your
> final
> wash so don't get any more finger prints on it. When it is thoroughly dry
> and you are ready to paint very lightly use a tack rag to wipe it down.
> Use
> a very light touch, you are only picking up any dust which has landed on
> the
> surface, rubbing hard will only add to your problems. When you begin
> spraying do not use any fisheye additive!! It is a flow enhancer and at
> this
> stage you don't want that. For your first coat spray a very light color
> coat
> and let it flash off thoroughly, about 20 minutes. Don't be in a hurry. I
> know that by now you are anxious, but relax and it will turn out fine. At
> this stage you may still see fisheye pocking thru, but be patient. Spray
> another very light coat and let it flash off just like the first. By your
> third coat it should be leveling nicely and hopefully no more fisheyes.
> Remember that when you apply a heavy coat you are reflowing the previous
> coats so don't apply to heavily or the fisheyes will reappear. You have to
> get the balance of flowing your final coats for a good finish with a
> minimum
> of orange peel and yet keeping it dry enough so that it does not release
> any
> possible contaminates which are locked down by your first 2 mist coats. If
> I
> can clarify anything I have said here just asks. Good luck. Dan.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:32 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
>
> Well I thought I had it all solved. Then AGAIN yesterday the fish eyes
> came
>
> to my spray booth....
> I ve added two inline filters, new hose and cleaned the primer surface
> really well.. I now think that I somehow got contaminates in the primer
> coats. When I apply the finish paint it comes thru and produced the eyes.
> So today the battle will continue. More later..
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AV8TOR09" <av8tor09@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 12:38 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fish Eye Update
>
>
>>
>> Glad to see that you found the culprit ! One other cause you might want
>> to
>
>> be aware of concerning fish eyes is silicone. I used to do backyard
>> custom
>
>> auto paint jobs and the guy I used to work with absolutely forbid any
>> kind
>
>> of silicone based lubricant to be anywhere near the garage. We were
>> painting a 69 GTX when it started to fisheye and we couldn't figure out
>> why. Then we noticed the owners friend was ARMOURALL'ing his tires
>> outside
>
>> the garage which was at least 50 to 60 ft away from our intake air
>> screens
>
>> but that was still to close. Long story short, high dollar custom paint
>> job ruined and garage permanently contaminated. Customer paid for paint
>> job twice, after all he bought his friend with him! :D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169955#169955
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 2:36 PM
>
>
>
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