Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:54 AM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Dan)
2. 02:08 AM - Re: Accident (petrdworak)
3. 04:13 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing (David Downey)
4. 04:15 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ... Nitriding (David Downey)
5. 04:36 AM - Re: Painting XL nose strut (David Downey)
6. 04:40 AM - Re: Primer for semi-exposed steel (David Downey)
7. 05:00 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing (kevinbonds@comcast.net)
8. 05:43 AM - Re: LIGHT AIRCRAFT (steveadams)
9. 05:57 AM - Quality Sport Planes headquarters, Picture and 701 Videos (Keith Ashcraft)
10. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding (Roy Szarafinski)
11. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Looking for plans (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 07:37 AM - Re: Baron vs Bird photos (John Davis)
13. 08:05 AM - Re: Baron vs Bird photos (KEVINBONDS@comcast.net)
14. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Accident (Dan)
15. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Accident PreventionRe: Accident Prevention (Edward Moody II)
16. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing (KEVINBONDS@comcast.net)
17. 08:17 AM - Blank messages (KEVINBONDS@comcast.net)
18. 08:27 AM - Re: Accident Prevention (Edward Moody II)
19. 08:27 AM - Re: Baron vs Bird photos (steve)
20. 08:27 AM - Re: Painting XL nose strut (Joe Scheibinger)
21. 08:48 AM - Re: Blank messages (Gig Giacona)
22. 08:49 AM - Re: Blank messages (Gig Giacona)
23. 09:11 AM - Re: Blank messages (Clyde Barcus)
24. 09:36 AM - Re: Painting XL nose strut (Juan Vega)
25. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: Blank messages (KEVINBONDS@comcast.net)
26. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing (Don_Lewis)
27. 10:16 AM - Re: Blank messages (Art Olechowski)
28. 10:17 AM - Re: newbie questions (dstasch)
29. 10:44 AM - Re: LIGHT AIRCRAFT (japhillipsga@AOL.COM)
30. 11:15 AM - Re: Blank messages (Leo Gates)
31. 11:19 AM - Re: Blank messages (Al Hays)
32. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Accident PreventionRe: Accident Prevention (japhillipsga@aol.com)
33. 11:55 AM - Re: canopy ()
34. 12:07 PM - Re: Accident (petrdworak)
35. 12:39 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Ron Lendon)
36. 01:03 PM - Re: Blank messages (Ron Lendon)
37. 01:09 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ROBERT SCEPPA)
38. 01:48 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Debo Cox)
39. 01:48 PM - Re: Canopy (Tim Juhl)
40. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding (n801bh@netzero.com)
41. 03:34 PM - Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding (Ron Lendon)
42. 04:18 PM - Re:canopy (Tim Verthein)
43. 04:21 PM - Re:Accident Prevention (Scott Thatcher)
44. 04:35 PM - Re: NASON Oil Presssure Switch (a.f.rupp@att.net)
45. 05:01 PM - Re: NASON Oil Presssure Switch (Al Hays)
46. 05:22 PM - Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding (ashontz)
47. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: It's official (Larry H)
48. 05:35 PM - Nitriding a Black art ?.. not really, Science.. (Pramod Kotwal)
49. 06:31 PM - Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues (lwinger)
50. 07:21 PM - Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues (DaveG601XL)
51. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: It's official (steve)
52. 08:15 PM - Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues (Bryan Martin)
53. 08:33 PM - Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues (Larry Winger)
54. 10:11 PM - Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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Hi Glenn: I don't have the answer for your bending questions, but Dave is no
longer building a Zenith. Quite some time ago he sold his project and is now
working on scratchbuilding a Sonex. Dan.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jugle
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:42 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Bending 40 thou
Hi Scratchbuilders,
I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you
solved it.
I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it
has been working fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with
some 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping under the top plate and the effort
required has begun pulling the rivets on the piano hinge.
Do I:
1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop?
2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer?
3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely
results in a lot of waste?
How did you do it?
Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does
anyone know if he's still building?
Thanks in advance,
Glenn.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171424#171424
--
Checked by AVG.
8:10 PM
Message 2
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Sir, If you speak about my post regarding CriCri / Cricket history, please take
a look and search into CriCri yahooo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/
or in the Google for more info.
I am not concerned here in any way. My neighbor is building a CriCri so I am interested
in this plane and its history. I am not producer of kitplanes, just
looking to design to build one so no vendetta etc. Only would like to provide
the view from other alternative side from thoose who didn't know that story. I
do not know where the true is but as I wrote: C.Heintz's letter looks be a PR
not serious analysis as a reztion for the ancidents.
Regarding my English resp. dialect you call it I'm sorry, this is not my native
language. I leave in Europa and my English is really not good. If I was no not
polite enough, please take that within this context...
[quote="dan(at)hillsgun.com"]After reading the thread referenced I don't see any
concrete evidence to
support wrongdoing on the part of Chris Heinz, only one individual making
unsupported accusations. The writing style and dialect seem very similar to
the poster making the accusations here. Are you that individual? If there is
proof then it is of interest. If it is just an individual with a personal
vendetta then please don't waste our time. Dan.
--[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171428#171428
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing |
Kevin;
I believe that the introduction of the additional particles places the surface
in compression thereby resuting in teh phenomenon you described in service. Shot
peening does a similar function.
Ashontz
Regarding your comment about the "hard crust". That's not exactly how it works.
It's, actually, really cool how it works. As I understand it, the nitriding process
introduces nitrogen atoms to a certain depth increasing molecular density.
This has the benefit of putting the surface in tension at all times. So that
when the metal is bent the surface unloads towards neutral. This greatly reduces
the likelyhood of cracking, since cracking happens as a result of continuous
tension-to-compression cycles. Basically nitriding breaks this cycle.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "ashontz"
bly wouldn't need it. From what I've read, the nitriding is really only
> adding a 15/1000th hard skin so to speak over a still more flexible shaft. Yeah,
> it'll make it stronger, but it's still a crust over a softer center. The 5th
> bearing makes more sense.
>
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing ... Nitriding |
Pramod;
Is there room in the case to increase the main journal diameter? Such as would
be possible with a billet crank? How much larger?
Thanks.
Pramod Kotwal <pramodkotwal@yahoo.com> wrote: Nitriding
Nitrogen is diffused into the metal matrix during nitriding.
This introduces compressive stresses in the area where the nitrogen is diffused.
The depth of this diffusion zone is generally referred to as case depth.
The compressive stresses oppose the bending stresses at the opposing end and
lower the resulting stresses.
Fatigue strength is the ability of a part to withstand bending stresses over a
number of load cycles.
Lowering bending stresses increases the number of load cycles that a part can withstand.
Remember that these load cycles are cumulative over the life of a part.
Nitriding can achieve only a limited increase of the number of survivable load
cycles if the loads are very high and if the part has already experienced a large
number of load cycles under heavy loads.
A fifth bearing will eliminate deflections of the crankshaft but it will not reduce
the bending force exerted by the connecting rod. So the bending stresses
will not be lowered. Hence the contribution of the fifth bearing towards increasing
the fatigue strength of a crankshaft remains to be seen. A crankshaft
with a larger cross section is a better solution.
In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good solution if you are trying to increase
the fatigue strength.
Pramod Kotwal
Nitron, Inc.
I should have mentioned I am not an expert on this subject (or any other for that
matter). I was just paraphrasing what I remember about a paper I read on the
subject. I tried to find that paper for you, but could not.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "ashontz"
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Painting XL nose strut |
I am not a metals expert either - my area is advanced composites, but... I spoke
with the manager of the metals lab this AM and he clarified the details somewhat.
Hydrogen embrittlement is a concern regardless if the plating is decorative or
thin dense chrome.
The primary driver for hydrogen embrittlement is the strength/temper/heat treat
of the steel, and to a lessor degree, the alloy. In cases above 180KSI, the application
almost always requires a bake; in many cases below 180KSI many of our
suppliers do the bake for comfort. A typical bake here is 23 hours at 37525F
- and the time between the plate and start of the bake is critical - not more
than 4 hours and preferably within 1 hour. The bake soak temperature can not
be above the tempering temperature for the part.
As always, the devil is in the details and this information is generic to a fault.
Jon Croke <Jon@joncroke.com> wrote: Take this for what it is worth, as I
am no expert in this field...
but - a friend of mine that has designed and repaired lots of industrial equipment
over the years told me that chroming for purposes of decoration has NO
danger of hyd embrittlement as we are talking only a few thou of chrome penetration.
Completely different: Chroming is apparently a common procedure for
the purpose of hardening metals (shafts, bearings, etc) (which has no goal to
enhance appearance!) and when done for this reason -- this goes much, much deeper
into the material... and then hyd embrittlement can become an issue...
and yes - a visit to an oven is an easy cure for this problem.
He sounded pretty convincing to me.. so Im just passing it along... FWIW. I
got an interesting explanation of the chroming process... which is not as simple
as plating using other familiar metals....
Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting XL nose strut
The hydrogen embrittlement resulting from chrome plating a 4130 structure can,
I believe I remember, be removed by baking the chromed structure at something
like 400 or 450F for 4 hours...
I am sure that someone on here can give you the exact recipe - if not maybe
I can ask the metals guys at work.
LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message
posted by: LarryMcFarland
Tim,
You probably should use something out of a rattle can. I sprayed black
because zinc chromate primer was worn off at the bearing slides.
It's a least-effort for the occasional refurb and it seems to hold as
well as anything.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Tim Juhl wrote:
>
> I'm going to want to hang my nose strut before too long and are looking
for recommendations as to a paint / finish. I'll be painting the plane later
with a catalyzed paint of some kind but I need to put something on the
strut prior to installation.
>
> >From checking the archives I found:
> Chrome - danger of embrittlement
> Powder Coat - too thick, peels, doesn't wear as well a you might expect.
>
> So what did the rest of you go with? I was considering rattle can enamel,
perhaps baking it at low heat in an oven.
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Primer for semi-exposed steel |
one of the reasons that engine mounts were routinely painted with ZCP was to allow
easy detection of cracks very early in their growth. The more finish, usually,
the more ductile the coating and the slower a crack fractures the coating...
Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote: If the information I learned about powder coating
is accurate, then using this process in the engine compartment of an airplane
is close to suicidal.
When I attended an EAA chapter meeting at a powder coating company, I learned
this process is mostly a way to get polyurethane paint on stuff. I also know
that polyurethane produces Hydrogen Cyanide when burned. This is the stuff many
states used for many years to execute people. It is incredibly poisonous.
To put this material in an engine compartment where there are FIRES seems like
the epitome of foolish moves.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 05:28 PM 3/19/2008, you wrote:
I prefer powder coating all steel parts. Easy to do (or have done). Then you
can paint to a finish coat color if needed (ie. exposed).
JT
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing |
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: LIGHT AIRCRAFT |
jerry(at)jerryhey.com wrote:
> Surviving and living are not at all the same. Putting around making
> gentle turns may extend your life but it is not living. Yanking and
> banking are the important fun part of flying, much more so than
> sitting still in the left seat, afraid to twitch. I love to fly.
> One of my old friends, flying a Tailwind, can't go from point to point
> without tossing in a roll ever so often. One night, in pitch black,
> we did roll after roll as we cork screwed along, only the lights on
> the ground to pronounce right side up and our laughter filling the
> cabin. That was living! I would not have a plane that cannot
> handle a little fun. Jerry age 67 (701 scratch )
>
>
>
To each his own, but I have to say in all seriousness. If that is the type of flying
you like, the 701 seems like an unusual choice to fulfill the mission. I
love orange juice, but I don't buy a bag of apples because they are on sale,
expecting to make them into orange juice. In any event, I just meant that every
airframe has it's limitations, and the pilot can easily direct the aircraft
to exceed those limitations regardless of the design. The 601 is not aerobatic;
it would not even be considered in the utility category at gross weight. Is
it really "living" to exceed the design limits?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171448#171448
Message 9
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| Subject: | Quality Sport Planes headquarters, Picture and 701 Videos |
All, If you have Google Earth 4.2 loaded, enter these coordinates
38.77352, -122.9909, (then Fly to). If you have the "youtube" layer
turned on (lefthand side, bottom of the screen, Primary
Database/gallery/youtube) there should be a video icon placed there on
the 32 numbers of the runway. This shows some more "STOL" capabilities
of the CH701. I think that Michael Heintz was the pilot. They have built
a 701 with a lowered seat pan on the pilot side that he fits him better.
If you don't have Google Earth then here is the Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdd7ZM-O0EA
The camera icon (North and West a few feet) is a picture of their
facility I took last September, with the WW powered 601 there in the
hanger door.
Later,
Keith
CH701 -- scratch
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note
that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the
author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient
should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT
accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
e-mail.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding |
My apologies to the list but since this was posted
here I feel I must respond here.
Thank you Pramod for sharing your knowledge and
insight on a subject many perceive as a black art,
namely heat treating metals.
I take issue with your statement;
"In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good
solution
if you are trying to increase the fatigue strength."
First of all the strength of a shaft is what it is,
whether it is nitrided or not, it is what it is.
The concept of a fifth bearing addresses the issue of
complex loading we place on the crankshaft by
cantilevering a propellor by four or more inches away
from the existing 3/4 inch wide bearing. A properly
implemented fifth bearing design will reduce the
magnitude of stress imparted to the shaft and allow it
to perform under conditions that fall below, hopefully
well below the threshold of fatigue limit.
Your idea that a crankshaft with a larger cross
section is a better solution than a fifth bearing is
convenient for the armchair engineer. But until you or
someone else produces one and addresses the logistical
complications the idea is counter- productive to
todays reality. Besides, in order to "feel good" about
this new crankshaft it would need a longer prop end
bearing.
The designers of the Jabiru, Continental and Lycoming
engines must really want to feel good about their
engines judging from the length of bearings they
choose to use!
In order to achieve a compact, light and appropriate
design I have chosen to work within the limitations of
the engine as designed by GM.
For those interested in my approach to the corvair
crankshaft issue please visit my site.
roysgarage.com
Roy, 701 plans, but currently off on a tangent!
Experience is the mother of knowledge.' Cervantes
Time: 09:25:22 AM PST US
From: Pramod Kotwal <pramodkotwal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...
Nitriding
Nitriding
Nitrogen is diffused into the metal matrix during
nitriding.
This introduces compressive stresses in the area where
the nitrogen is diffused.
The depth of this diffusion zone is generally referred
to as case depth.
The compressive stresses oppose the bending stresses
at the opposing end and
lower the resulting stresses.
Fatigue strength is the ability of a part to withstand
bending stresses over a
number of load cycles.
Lowering bending stresses increases the number of load
cycles that a part can withstand.
Remember that these load cycles are cumulative over
the life of a part.
Nitriding can achieve only a limited increase of the
number of survivable load
cycles if the loads are very high and if the part has
already experienced a large
number of load cycles under heavy loads.
A fifth bearing will eliminate deflections of the
crankshaft but it will not reduce
the bending force exerted by the connecting rod. So
the bending stresses
will not be lowered. Hence the contribution of the
fifth bearing towards increasing
the fatigue strength of a crankshaft remains to be
seen. A crankshaft with
a larger cross section is a better solution.
In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good solution
if you are trying to increase
the fatigue strength.
Pramod Kotwal
Nitron, Inc.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for plans |
Hi Bob,
One thing to consider when it comes to buying airplane plans. The
details of the design are frequently changed at Zenith. You must
assume that some of the changes are actually improvements.
With all the money it costs to build a plane, it seems that saving a
few bucks on the plans is false economy. In my case, the plans cost
is less than one percent of the total plane cost. I would suggest
that getting new plans and considering updating them in the middle of
your build process would be a wiser choice.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 08:34 AM 3/18/2008, you wrote:
>Just a question here..... When/if one would buy second-hand plans,
>would they not come with their assigned serial number? If so,
>wouldn't this solve the problem of which you speak? If not, why
>not? Could a discussion be had with Zenith to transfer the serial
>number to the new owner of the plans? Would this not be to the
>benefit of Zenith? After all, they would stand to gain another
>flying aircraft of their design instead of having the plans go
>unused. In this scenario, Zenith has already received their money
>from the original purchase of the plans. So, then, why wouldn't one
>try to find a discounted set of plans from a now-disinterested
>builder? Just some thoughts.....
>
>Bob Taylor
>Wadsworth, Ohio
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Baron vs Bird photos |
Hi Kevin,
Those pictures with the baron are actually from a midair with another
aircraft not a birdstrike. Note that even the names of the images
includes Midair.
Snopes.com even lists this incident....
http://www.snopes.com/photos/airplane/birdshot.asp
John Davis
KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
>
> I toured the AEDC wind tunnel facility in Tullahoma Tennessee. One of the most
talked about features is the Chicken Gun. A large cannon that the military uses
to fire grocery store chickens at canopies. Lots of time has been spent studying
the affects of bird strikes. It is no small matter even at our speeds.
>
> I guess most of you have never seen these photos of the effects of a birdstrike
on a Baron. These should give any pilot the hebe-jeebies.
>
> http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair1.jpg
> http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair2.jpg
> http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair3.jpg
>
> The third one is just unbelievable.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Baron vs Bird photos |
OOps. Just goes to show you, you can't believe everything you think you know. Thanks
for that.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville Tn
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: John Davis <johnd@data-tech.com>
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> Those pictures with the baron are actually from a midair with another
> aircraft not a birdstrike. Note that even the names of the images
> includes Midair.
>
> Snopes.com even lists this incident....
>
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/airplane/birdshot.asp
>
> John Davis
>
>
> KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > I toured the AEDC wind tunnel facility in Tullahoma Tennessee. One of the most
> talked about features is the Chicken Gun. A large cannon that the military uses
> to fire grocery store chickens at canopies. Lots of time has been spent studying
> the affects of bird strikes. It is no small matter even at our speeds.
> >
> > I guess most of you have never seen these photos of the effects of a
> birdstrike on a Baron. These should give any pilot the hebe-jeebies.
> >
> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair1.jpg
> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair2.jpg
> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair3.jpg
> >
> > The third one is just unbelievable.
> >
> > Kevin Bonds
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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I have nothing against you, and I am not criticizing your English or
politeness. I was only pointing out that from the way you had written your
critical post was very similar to the post you referenced us to yet you did
not identify yourself as having written both articles. I still don't see any
proof of wrongdoing, only one individual (you) saying it is so. Dan.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of petrdworak
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:05 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Accident
Sir, If you speak about my post regarding CriCri / Cricket history, please
take a look and search into CriCri yahooo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/
or in the Google for more info.
I am not concerned here in any way. My neighbor is building a CriCri so I
am interested in this plane and its history. I am not producer of kitplanes,
just looking to design to build one so no vendetta etc. Only would like to
provide the view from other alternative side from thoose who didn't know
that story. I do not know where the true is but as I wrote: C.Heintz's
letter looks be a PR not serious analysis as a reztion for the ancidents.
Regarding my English resp. dialect you call it I'm sorry, this is not my
native language. I leave in Europa and my English is really not good. If I
was no not polite enough, please take that within this context...
[quote="dan(at)hillsgun.com"]After reading the thread referenced I don't see
any concrete evidence to
support wrongdoing on the part of Chris Heinz, only one individual making
unsupported accusations. The writing style and dialect seem very similar to
the poster making the accusations here. Are you that individual? If there is
proof then it is of interest. If it is just an individual with a personal
vendetta then please don't waste our time. Dan.
--[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171428#171428
--
Checked by AVG.
8:10 PM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Accident PreventionRe: Accident Prevention |
Just as well that most EAB and GA aircraft are not built like tanks.
Tanks have terrible climb rates.....
Dred
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing |
Message 17
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Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some are
blank.
Kevin Bonds
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Accident Prevention |
I second that motion Tim. I have flown several times with friends in
their aerobatic planes (Citabria Decathalon, Christen Eagle, Steen
Skybolt, Extra 300) and have found that the 4G entry / exit from an
inside loop is way, way more G load than I would ever confidently put my
601XL through (once it is finished that is). Other pilots mileage may
vary but nobody needs to worry about me overstressing my XL. Hell, Bill
of Georgia flies even lighter touch than me so take us both off the
worry list.
Dred
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Baron vs Bird photos |
Words can be interesting..
MidAir ? With what?, Whom?
Once I saw a house fly.
I also saw a Man eating Shark.
He was at Johns Seafood Restaurant
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: <KEVINBONDS@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Baron vs Bird photos
>
> OOps. Just goes to show you, you can't believe everything you think you
> know. Thanks for that.
>
> Kevin Bonds
> Nashville Tn
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: John Davis <johnd@data-tech.com>
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> Those pictures with the baron are actually from a midair with another
>> aircraft not a birdstrike. Note that even the names of the images
>> includes Midair.
>>
>> Snopes.com even lists this incident....
>>
>> http://www.snopes.com/photos/airplane/birdshot.asp
>>
>> John Davis
>>
>>
>> KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
>> >
>> > I toured the AEDC wind tunnel facility in Tullahoma Tennessee. One of
>> > the most
>> talked about features is the Chicken Gun. A large cannon that the
>> military uses
>> to fire grocery store chickens at canopies. Lots of time has been spent
>> studying
>> the affects of bird strikes. It is no small matter even at our speeds.
>> >
>> > I guess most of you have never seen these photos of the effects of a
>> birdstrike on a Baron. These should give any pilot the hebe-jeebies.
>> >
>> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair1.jpg
>> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair2.jpg
>> > http://www.micom.net/oops/BaronMidair3.jpg
>> >
>> > The third one is just unbelievable.
>> >
>> > Kevin Bonds
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Painting XL nose strut |
Tim,
The chroming looks great!What did it cost?
Joe in Oshkosh
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Kevin,
On the web forum they have all been blank.
Kevin Bonds wrote:
> Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some are
blank.
>
> Kevin Bonds
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171495#171495
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Kevin
Now I just noticed one of you posts that had a quote in it and it was fine.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171498#171498
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Yes
Clyde Barcus
----- Original Message -----
From: <KEVINBONDS@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Blank messages
>
> Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some
> are blank.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Painting XL nose strut |
i would recommend powder coating it. the major landing gear guys PC their struts.
it is tough against chipping.
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Downey <planecrazydld@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mar 21, 2008 7:33 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting XL nose strut
>
>I am not a metals expert either - my area is advanced composites, but... I spoke
with the manager of the metals lab this AM and he clarified the details somewhat.
>
>Hydrogen embrittlement is a concern regardless if the plating is decorative or
thin dense chrome.
>
>The primary driver for hydrogen embrittlement is the strength/temper/heat treat
of the steel, and to a lessor degree, the alloy. In cases above 180KSI, the
application almost always requires a bake; in many cases below 180KSI many of
our suppliers do the bake for comfort. A typical bake here is 23 hours at 37525F
- and the time between the plate and start of the bake is critical - not more
than 4 hours and preferably within 1 hour. The bake soak temperature can not
be above the tempering temperature for the part.
>
>As always, the devil is in the details and this information is generic to a fault.
>
>Jon Croke <Jon@joncroke.com> wrote: Take this for what it is worth, as I
am no expert in this field...
>
> but - a friend of mine that has designed and repaired lots of industrial equipment
over the years told me that chroming for purposes of decoration has NO
danger of hyd embrittlement as we are talking only a few thou of chrome penetration.
Completely different: Chroming is apparently a common procedure for
the purpose of hardening metals (shafts, bearings, etc) (which has no goal to
enhance appearance!) and when done for this reason -- this goes much, much
deeper into the material... and then hyd embrittlement can become an issue...
and yes - a visit to an oven is an easy cure for this problem.
>
> He sounded pretty convincing to me.. so Im just passing it along... FWIW. I
got an interesting explanation of the chroming process... which is not as simple
as plating using other familiar metals....
>
> Jon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Downey
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting XL nose strut
>
>
>The hydrogen embrittlement resulting from chrome plating a 4130 structure can,
I believe I remember, be removed by baking the chromed structure at something
like 400 or 450F for 4 hours...
>I am sure that someone on here can give you the exact recipe - if not maybe
I can ask the metals guys at work.
>
>LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message
posted by: LarryMcFarland
>
>Tim,
>You probably should use something out of a rattle can. I sprayed black
>because zinc chromate primer was worn off at the bearing slides.
>It's a least-effort for the occasional refurb and it seems to hold as
>well as anything.
>
>Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>do not archive
>
>
>Tim Juhl wrote:
>>
>> I'm going to want to hang my nose strut before too long and are looking
for recommendations as to a paint / finish. I'll be painting the plane later
with a catalyzed paint of some kind but I need to put something on the
strut prior to installation.
>>
>> >From checking the archives I found:
>> Chrome - danger of embrittlement
>> Powder Coat - too thick, peels, doesn't wear as well a you might expect.
>>
>> So what did the rest of you go with? I was considering rattle can enamel,
perhaps baking it at low heat in an oven.
>>
>
>
>
> Dave Downey
> Harleysville (SE) PA
> 100 HP Corvair
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Sorry about the blank messages. I am using Comcast Webmail. Seems like we had a
problem with that before. Very spotty.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
> Kevin,
>
> On the web forum they have all been blank.
>
>
>
> Kevin Bonds wrote:
> > Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some
are
> blank.
> >
> > Kevin Bonds
>
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171495#171495
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing |
YES, see below........
----- Original Message -----
From: KEVINBONDS@comcast.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair 5th bearing
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Kevin,
I have seen several of your postings as blank.
Art
701-Scratchin'
--- KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some are
blank.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: newbie questions |
Thank you to everyone who replied here and thru e-mail! I know that newbie questions
get beat to death and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond
to them again. With all the info and links I've received, I'm confident I will
be ordering the starter kit with all the correct tools in place.
Jim,
We're planning to build the 601xl. My son recently turned 16 and now that he has
his drivers license I'm guessing this will soon be turning into a solo project
for me, but I'm still looking forward any time we spend on it together. I'm
also guessing he will be about 36 when I reached the 90% you've reached on
your 801 :)
Thanks again,
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171512#171512
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| Subject: | Re: LIGHT AIRCRAFT |
Jerry, no, my wings are stock as are the attachments. Fuel ?tanks behind the spar
would sure changer the CG, wouldn't it? Somebody a bit smarter than me would
have to look at that.?I did make some notable mods to the fuselage. Best regards,
Bill of Georgia
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LIGHT AIRCRAFT
Has any one installed fuel tanks aft of the main spar that are larger than the?baggage
comp. provided by Zenith? Did you add braces under the tank. ect? Jerry
of Ga
?
In a message dated 3/20/2008 12:58:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, japhillipsga@aol.com
writes:
Graemecns, I'm not sure about another external brace, but if I was building my
XL again I might consider a forward wing bracket between the inboard side of the
fuel tanks and the side of the fuselage. I am building a RV-8a and just finished
mounting the wings. The Rv's have an overlapping forward attachment bracket
intended to help prevent wing twist and more support for the leading edge
of the wing for the added weight of full fuel tanks. A good idea that ZAC should
consider as a modification to design. The XL might benefit from this modification.
The XL wing is prevented from twisting by only one bolt in the very thin
metal of the rear spar.? If I were to consider such a modification I would
of course confer with the smart folks at ZAC for their opinion. Just a thought
from a XL builder and flyer. Best of luck and regards, Bill
do not archive??
-----Original Message-----
From: Graeme <graeme@coletoolcentre.com.au>
Sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:54 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: LIGHT AIRCRAFT
?
I have been watching from the side lines the continuing to and fro about the safety
of the CH601.?
I have a CH 701 but may consider building a 601 in future.?
These are light air craft they don't have bullet proof glass. (bird strike protection)?
they don't have armour plating around the cockpit area (hillbillies shooting at
you over flying their crop protection)?
When you hit the ground they break (and they have no airbags for crash protection)?
They are not designed to crash they are designed to fly.?
If you fly within the specifications you should be OK .?
All those concerend should fit a G meter to check that you are not mishandling
your aircraft.?
If I build a ch601 for my own piece of mind I would consider a strut brace to trianglate
wing.?
But only if an answer on the accidents indicated structual failure or are inconclusive.?
If any indication of concern with structure I am sure Zenith would respond with
a fix.?
I think the Australian investigators (Recreation Aviation Australia) should come
up with some definitive results on the latest Accident. In time!!?
?
Graemecns?
?
?
?
?
?
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Yes
KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own posts, some are
blank.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Yes, they have been coming up blank. I've been waiting to someone
else to notice and comment on it because, unlike most folks, I'm not
using a Microsoft PC. Usually, when a message seems to be blank, I
select "plain text alternative" for message under the View pull-down
menu in my Mac mail program and the message gets displayed. Even
that option isn't available for your blank posts.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Mar 21, 2008, at 11:14 AM, KEVINBONDS@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Have some of my posts been coming up blank? When I view my own
> posts, some are blank.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Accident PreventionRe: Accident Prevention |
Ed, your still with us!? I figured you were convalescing in some casino in Reno
eyeballing the ladies and winning a fortune at 21. Hope everything is going well.
I plan on going flying in the morning for a couple hours. Got nowhere to
go, but as I am such a poor pilot I need to keep in practice just to stay marginal.
You think you might come to SnF? If so, I'll buy you an adult beverage.
Best regards, Bill
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net>
Sent: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:11 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Accident PreventionRe: Accident Prevention
Just as well that most EAB and GA aircraft are not built like tanks. Tanks have
terrible climb rates.....
Dred
Message 33
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|
I have a canopy from Todd's and can attest to its strength (definitely thicker
than .090"). It may not be bullet proof but it would probably defeat all but the
most determined bird from entering. The idea that hitting any little tweaty
bird with the canopy is a death sentence seems more than a little ridiculous.
The shape of the canopy should lend strength to an already tough material and
I plan to stay subsonic for most of my flights. If you do happen to hit a Canadian
Goose at 175 kts squarely at the base of the canopy it probably will be
joining you, anything less may just make a big mess. Still best just knot to find
out. I cut my canopy to make a separate windshield and can attest to the fact
that there was no measurable thinning at any point.
Craig S.
N601XS (reserved only, but not for much longer)
I replaced my canopy last year with one from Todd's Canopies that is ~50%
thicker. Not sure how much more protection if any it provides for a bird
strike. Todd claims it's quieter and I guess it is a little. You can find
his site at http://www.toddscanopies.com/ and ask about the thicker
canopy. It fit in my original frame with no problems.
-----------------------------------------
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Corporation family of Companies.
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entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended
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Message 34
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[quote="dan(at)hillsgun.com"]I have nothing against you, and I am not criticizing
your English or
politeness. I was only pointing out that from the way you had written your
critical post was very similar to the post you referenced us to yet you did
not identify yourself as having written both articles. I still don't see any
proof of wrongdoing, only one individual (you) saying it is so. Dan.
--[/quote]
OK, thanks. I don't have more info and/or evidence. Everything I know I was told
or read on the Net. I believe the story is true. You can contact people on the
CriCri group. I thing you can get more info there or you can try contact Mr.
Colomban.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171537#171537
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Glen,
You could do what I did. Ask around at the EAA meetings and everyone you know,
ya just never know what ya might turn up. For instance:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=11732&row=434
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171547#171547
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Blank messages |
Yep there have been a few blank ones.
Kevin, why don't you try the forums web interface. I have been using it since
it became available and my mail box it much less cluttered. I just do a view
since last logon and read backwards, bottom to top.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171555#171555
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
> I have been toying with the idea of bending my
> longerons, which are 12' long. My idea is to make
> a device which has 4 large washers with a radius
> of 1/8 inch on the outer edge. The washers are in
> line. So if you run the .040 under the washers
> with gradual pressure, eventually you will achieve
> a 90 degree bend. These washers will have to be
> mounted in a jig so you can hold the .040 in place
> Will keep you posted if I have any luck..Do not
> archive.
--- Jugle <glenn@eastcoastit.net> wrote:
> <glenn@eastcoastit.net>
>
> Hi Scratchbuilders,
>
> I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like
> to know how some of you solved it.
>
> I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans
> at www.ch601.org and it has been working fine for
> thinner material, but today I experimented with some
> 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping under the top
> plate and the effort required has begun pulling the
> rivets on the piano hinge.
>
> Do I:
> 1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop?
> 2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold
> it firmer?
> 3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down
> later... this surely results in a lot of waste?
>
> How did you do it?
>
> Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been
> live for a while. Does anyone know if he's still
> building?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Glenn.
>
> --------
> Glenn Andressen
> 601XL- just started.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171424#171424
>
>
>
>
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Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Hi Glenn,
Three things...
1.) I took Dave's original design and beefed it up a little and have been able
to bend everything I've wanted to. By beefing up, I mean I made the rivet pitch
less in the hinge and put more clamping bolts on it - closer together like
you're thinking. I think I remember using stainless steel rivets on mine too.
You did that, right?
2.) Another trick I used was to put a full-width strip of duct tape on the inside
of both "clamping" surfaces. This gives the clamp a little more grip on the
part and keeps it from slipping. The back side of that duct tape is pretty
grippy on bare metal.
3.) Definitely make the flange wider than you're bending - especially on the
thicker stuff. On big parts or the thick stuff I made my flange 100mm bigger a
time or two and trimmed it down - again like you're thinking. It may be a bit
wasteful, but for me it was a lot cheaper and easier than trying to order the
part or find someone on the island who can bend it. The "Dave's Brake" I built
isn't perfect, but it's gotten me this far and I've been more than happy with
the results.
FYI - Dave's 601 site is no longer active, but he's still building and very active
in the homebuilding community. Search the archives here for his email address
and drop him a line. Hope this helps!
Debo Cox
Nags Head, NC
XL/Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/debo
Jugle <glenn@eastcoastit.net> wrote:
Hi Scratchbuilders,
I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you solved
it.
I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it has been working fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with some 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping under the top plate and the effort required has begun pulling the rivets on the piano hinge.
Do I:
1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop?
2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer?
3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely results
in a lot of waste?
How did you do it?
Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does anyone know if he's still building?
Thanks in advance,
Glenn.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171424#171424
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Bird strike story.... I hit a bird at night once in a 172 while cruising at about
2000 feet. It made a mighty thump and had me digging out the flashlight to
inspect the wings. Apparantly I "cored" him on the heated pitot as the pitot
hole was packed full of meat. The fuel tank vent was bent backwards parallel
with the bottom skin. Gore and feathers trailed back from there. To get the
meat out of the pitot I ended up turning the heat on and cooking it to a consistency
where it would all pull out in one long piece. From the feathers I suspect
the bird was a starling.
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171572#171572
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding |
I looked over what Roy is doing and it is a GREAT idea. I have been a ma
chinist almost my whole life and his work is excellent, his concept soun
d and his approach to the problem the best fix, short of redesigning the
complete motor. I had people write on some lists that my V-8 Zenith wou
ld not fly because of various wifes tales. To them I say,,,, Seeya...
I want this archived too.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Roy Szarafinski <rvickski@yahoo.com> wrote:
My apologies to the list but since this was posted
here I feel I must respond here.
Thank you Pramod for sharing your knowledge and
insight on a subject many perceive as a black art,
namely heat treating metals.
I take issue with your statement;
"In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good
solution
if you are trying to increase the fatigue strength."
First of all the strength of a shaft is what it is,
whether it is nitrided or not, it is what it is.
The concept of a fifth bearing addresses the issue of
complex loading we place on the crankshaft by
cantilevering a propellor by four or more inches away
from the existing 3/4 inch wide bearing. A properly
implemented fifth bearing design will reduce the
magnitude of stress imparted to the shaft and allow it
to perform under conditions that fall below, hopefully
well below the threshold of fatigue limit.
Your idea that a crankshaft with a larger cross
section is a better solution than a fifth bearing is
convenient for the armchair engineer. But until you or
someone else produces one and addresses the logistical
complications the idea is counter- productive to
todays reality. Besides, in order to "feel good" about
this new crankshaft it would need a longer prop end
bearing.
The designers of the Jabiru, Continental and Lycoming
engines must really want to feel good about their
engines judging from the length of bearings they
choose to use!
In order to achieve a compact, light and appropriate
design I have chosen to work within the limitations of
the engine as designed by GM.
For those interested in my approach to the corvair
crankshaft issue please visit my site.
roysgarage.com
Roy, 701 plans, but currently off on a tangent!
Experience is the mother of knowledge.' Cervantes
Time: 09:25:22 AM PST US
From: Pramod Kotwal <pramodkotwal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...
Nitriding
Nitriding
Nitrogen is diffused into the metal matrix during
nitriding.
This introduces compressive stresses in the area where
the nitrogen is diffused.
The depth of this diffusion zone is generally referred
to as case depth.
The compressive stresses oppose the bending stresses
at the opposing end and
lower the resulting stresses.
Fatigue strength is the ability of a part to withstand
bending stresses over a
number of load cycles.
Lowering bending stresses increases the number of load
cycles that a part can withstand.
Remember that these load cycles are cumulative over
the life of a part.
Nitriding can achieve only a limited increase of the
number of survivable load
cycles if the loads are very high and if the part has
already experienced a large
number of load cycles under heavy loads.
A fifth bearing will eliminate deflections of the
crankshaft but it will not reduce
the bending force exerted by the connecting rod. So
the bending stresses
will not be lowered. Hence the contribution of the
fifth bearing towards increasing
the fatigue strength of a crankshaft remains to be
seen. A crankshaft with
a larger cross section is a better solution.
In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good solution
if you are trying to increase
the fatigue strength.
Pramod Kotwal
Nitron, Inc.
========================
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_____________________________________________________________
Click here and get the professional resume help you need.
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Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding |
Ben, I couldn't agree with you more. I am a machinist / welder also but Roy is
going to build one for me. I was so excited when I went to see it the first
time that I wanted to setup an engineering fund and get this thing in the air.
I have rethought that idea and decided that I just wanted one for myself.
Come on down to SnF 2008 and see it for yourself.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171597#171597
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Funny thing....I'm also on the Pietenpol list! In over a year on both
lists, I was noticing today that the Piet gang NEVER has a thread about
a crash, OR a bird strike. And I'm thinking there are a heck of a lot
more Piets out there than Zeniths. Then again, in a Piet the only bird
strikes may be birds running into the tail!
Tim in Bovey
....and since most animals do not detect danger that approaches faster
than they
can travel, the birds probably do not see the Piet as a threat...
Larry Winger <larrywinger@gmail.com> wrote: Jay, thanks for
bringing us back to
the reality of the issue. Good thing this isn't a Pietenpol
list. Imagine their
conversation about bird strike protection!
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re:Accident Prevention |
OK Jerry, I admit that being careful doesn't sound fun but if you're 67, you
have obviously either been lucky or not as bold as you think. Doing rolls,
immelmans, etc., are not yank and bank flying! Imagine decending to pattern
altitude... the speed slowly builds up while you're watching one aircraft
turn x-wind to join the downwind and another overflying the field. You bank
hard right at 60-70 degrees to miss the aircraft overflying the field (to
get an instrument rating I believe you've got to hold a 720, 60 degree bank
without losing altitude, so this isn't too hard on the plane). But Winds
are gusting to 25 kts and suddenly you go vertical and pull back on the
stick simultaneously while never noticing that you had exceeded maneuvering
speed. Easily a 4-6 g maneuver. All I'm saying is that it can happen. Not
often. Maybe never. But think about it when you are in the pattern.
Another common error was mentioned previously regarding stalling the
aircraft in a tight turn. I was doing some spot landings in a Mooney and
while tuning base to final (and decending), I banked it hard over to at
least 70 degrees. Engine was at idle. I knew I was going to hit the spot on
the runway, so I leveled off... except the plane would not level off! It
continued the left turn and those famous words, "Oh S..t" were stated
loudly. The wing had stalled and the controls were useless. I added power,
nosed over (all this within about 50 feet of the ground) and the plane
immdiately leveled off, I dropped the gear and missed the mark entirely!
Moral of the story. Never make hard turns in the pattern or anywhere else
unless absolutely necessary
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL
Message from Jerry Hey
<<Surviving and living are not at all the same. Putting around making
gentle turns may extend your life but it is not living. Yanking and
banking are the important fun part of flying, much more so than
sitting still in the left seat, afraid to twitch. I love to fly.
One of my old friends, flying a Tailwind, can't go from point to point
without tossing in a roll ever so often. One night, in pitch black,
we did roll after roll as we cork screwed along, only the lights on
the ground to pronounce right side up and our laughter filling the
cabin. That was living! I would not have a plane that cannot
handle a little fun. Jerry age 67 (701 scratch )>>
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| Subject: | NASON Oil Presssure Switch |
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: NASON Oil Presssure Switch |
The post was blank - no message displayed.
Do not archive
On Mar 21, 2008, at 7:31 PM, a.f.rupp@att.net wrote:
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...Nitriding |
Roy, I'm surprised you would even need to post to clarify this. Seems like a no-brainer
that a 5th bearing would take a lot of stress off crankshaft.
I can't believe anyone would even argue you or WW on this. It just makes sense.
rvickski(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> My apologies to the list but since this was posted
> here I feel I must respond here.
>
> Thank you Pramod for sharing your knowledge and
> insight on a subject many perceive as a black art,
> namely heat treating metals.
>
> I take issue with your statement;
> "In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good
> solution
> if you are trying to increase the fatigue strength."
>
> First of all the strength of a shaft is what it is,
> whether it is nitrided or not, it is what it is.
>
> The concept of a fifth bearing addresses the issue of
> complex loading we place on the crankshaft by
> cantilevering a propellor by four or more inches away
> from the existing 3/4 inch wide bearing. A properly
> implemented fifth bearing design will reduce the
> magnitude of stress imparted to the shaft and allow it
> to perform under conditions that fall below, hopefully
> well below the threshold of fatigue limit.
>
> Your idea that a crankshaft with a larger cross
> section is a better solution than a fifth bearing is
> convenient for the armchair engineer. But until you or
> someone else produces one and addresses the logistical
> complications the idea is counter- productive to
> todays reality. Besides, in order to "feel good" about
> this new crankshaft it would need a longer prop end
> bearing.
>
> The designers of the Jabiru, Continental and Lycoming
> engines must really want to feel good about their
> engines judging from the length of bearings they
> choose to use!
>
> In order to achieve a compact, light and appropriate
> design I have chosen to work within the limitations of
> the engine as designed by GM.
>
> For those interested in my approach to the corvair
> crankshaft issue please visit my site.
>
> roysgarage.com
>
> Roy, 701 plans, but currently off on a tangent!
>
> Experience is the mother of knowledge.' Cervantes
>
>
>
>
> Time: 09:25:22 AM PST US
> From: Pramod Kotwal
> Subject: Re: Re: Corvair 5th bearing ...
> Nitriding
>
> Nitriding
>
> Nitrogen is diffused into the metal matrix during
> nitriding.
> This introduces compressive stresses in the area where
> the nitrogen is diffused.
> The depth of this diffusion zone is generally referred
> to as case depth.
> The compressive stresses oppose the bending stresses
> at the opposing end and
> lower the resulting stresses.
> Fatigue strength is the ability of a part to withstand
> bending stresses over a
> number of load cycles.
>
> Lowering bending stresses increases the number of load
> cycles that a part can withstand.
>
>
> Remember that these load cycles are cumulative over
> the life of a part.
>
> Nitriding can achieve only a limited increase of the
> number of survivable load
> cycles if the loads are very high and if the part has
> already experienced a large
> number of load cycles under heavy loads.
>
> A fifth bearing will eliminate deflections of the
> crankshaft but it will not reduce
> the bending force exerted by the connecting rod. So
> the bending stresses
> will not be lowered. Hence the contribution of the
> fifth bearing towards increasing
> the fatigue strength of a crankshaft remains to be
> seen. A crankshaft with
> a larger cross section is a better solution.
>
> In my opinion, a fifth bearing is a feel good solution
> if you are trying to increase
> the fatigue strength.
>
> Pramod Kotwal
> Nitron, Inc.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171615#171615
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| Subject: | Re: It's official |
Yes Steve, that was a bit of "tongue in cheek" humor on my part.....I DO have a
warped one I'm told...LOL. I was chuckling all the time I was writing it and
HOPED everyone got the humor.....I certainly wouldn't want anyone to try doing
and taking off with it in the lockers.....Just 'cause someone said so", don't
make it true! Common sense has to prevail whenever you read anything on here.....
Larry
steve <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net> wrote:
You ARE kidding, yes.???
A four ton jack ? I dont think so, Larry...
Maybe a one half ton but shirley not a four ton...
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry H
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: It's official
Well I plan on putting my 4 ton hydraulic jack, tie downs, tie down stakes, extra
quarts of oil, a set of chains if I need them, a couple of bungee cords,
extra grease (in case my wheels stop going around and around), a couple of cases
of Diet Coke, some ice for our "in-flight" lunch to keep the pop cold and lunch
meat cold, probably a couple of bags of groceries, our luggage (I'd hate
to overload the baggage area behind the seat yah know) and our pillows. That
should about round out everything we'll need for our over night trips. I just
wished I would have put on the extra fuel tanks so I can fly further without
having to stop and refueling too.......
(NOT!)
LH
Do Not Archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Nitriding a Black art ?.. not really, Science.. |
I think it is time to get some basic concepts cleared.
"First of all the strength of a shaft is what it is,
whether it is nitrided or not, it is what it is."
If you mean that a given shaft will withstand only a certain number of load cycles
at a given level of bending stress, you are absolutely right.
What nitriding, carburising and other surface hardening processes do is not change
this particular property of the shaft but rather reduce the "effective" stress
that the surface of the shaft sees under the same bending moment. As I have
tried to explain, this is achieved by preloading the shaft with compressive
stresses that work in the opposite sense to the bending stresses.
A properly
implemented fifth bearing design will reduce the
magnitude of stress imparted to the shaft and allow it
to perform under conditions that fall below, hopefully
well below the threshold of fatigue limit.
The bearing will eliminate deflections. It will perhaps alter the vibrational characteristics
of the shaft. It will not reduce the bending stress produced by
the connecting rod because stress is force divided by the cross section, which
are affected by the introduction of the bearing.
If you want to increase the number of load cycles that the shaft will survive,
reduce the bending force,
reduce the effective bending stress by preloading the shaft
or increase the area over which the force is spread.
The lamentations about the limits of the Corvair design are well justified. Perhaps
it is time to realize that it isa good idea to respect those limits and live
within those boundaries.
At least, the fifth bearing will do no harm.
By the way, your back handed compliment about my understanding of the "black art"
of heat treating are appreciated.
Pramod Kotwal
Ben, I couldn't agree with you more. I am a machinist / welder also but Roy is
going to build one for me. I was so excited when I went to see it the first
time that I wanted to setup an engineering fund and get this thing in the air.
I have rethought that idea and decided that I just wanted one for myself.
Come on down to SnF 2008 and see it for yourself.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171597#171597
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues |
Help. The more I study the plans, the more confused I am. The rudder cable outlet
fairing has me stumped.
On the 601XL, 6-B-4 shows an 8mm x 20mm cutout for the rudder cable, right above
the bottom longeron. Then if you look at the drawing for the fairing (6-B-4-2)
that would seem to put the cutout near the bottom of the cone-shaped exit
tube. Finally, the picture of the nylon fairlead itself shows the forward hole
almost centered under the cone. Which is it?
Because I can't visualize the geometry of the rudder cable path yet, I'm concerned
to move the hole in the nylon fairlead down to match the specified cutout
location, out of concern for interference. Neither do I want to move it up so
it exits in the center of the cone without some word from a builder who has installed
the actual cables.
Sorry for rambling, but I'm needing some words of direction or reassurance from
those who have gone before. By the way, these are not Zenith factory parts since
I'm scratch building.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL/Corvair from scratch
Control surfaces and wings complete.
Bottom rear fuselage almost done
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171629#171629
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues |
Larry,
My regular-build kit skins came with the 8X20 oval already cut so the hole position
was fixed. I just centered the fairlead hole and cone shaped fairing all
up with each other and moved on. When I got to the point of installing the rudder
and attached the control cables, they all lined up just fine.
I would not worry about overthinking this one too much. There are plenty other
issues that you will fret about as you work your way forward on the fuselage.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, all major assemblies complete. Have run the engine and am starting final
assembly.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171638#171638
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| Subject: | Re: It's official |
Well Larry, I was wondering....
I really knew you dont need a four ton jack to lift a Zenith.
Then again I dont know jack.
I assume I ll be able to carry a one half ton floor type jack in my
locker.
After considering the situamation, I figure that the jack will be in the
right locker and the handles in the left. That is when I fly solo.
With a passenger I ll just put the whole jack and handles in the rear
shelf.
Any other ideas will be appreiated.
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry H
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: It's official
Yes Steve, that was a bit of "tongue in cheek" humor on my part.....I
DO have a warped one I'm told...LOL. I was chuckling all the time I was
writing it and HOPED everyone got the humor.....I certainly wouldn't
want anyone to try doing and taking off with it in the lockers.....Just
'cause someone said so", don't make it true! Common sense has to
prevail whenever you read anything on here.....
Larry
steve <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net> wrote:
You ARE kidding, yes.???
A four ton jack ? I dont think so, Larry...
Maybe a one half ton but shirley not a four ton...
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry H
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: It's official
Well I plan on putting my 4 ton hydraulic jack, tie downs, tie
down stakes, extra quarts of oil, a set of chains if I need them, a
couple of bungee cords, extra grease (in case my wheels stop going
around and around), a couple of cases of Diet Coke, some ice for our
"in-flight" lunch to keep the pop cold and lunch meat cold, probably a
couple of bags of groceries, our luggage (I'd hate to overload the
baggage area behind the seat yah know) and our pillows. That should
about round out everything we'll need for our over night trips. I just
wished I would have put on the extra fuel tanks so I can fly further
without having to stop and refueling too.......
(NOT!)
LH
Do Not Archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues |
You're going to have to trim the bottom of the fairing so that the
center of the cone lines up with the hole in the fuselage. I just
centered the fairing over the hole in the fuselage and trimmed the
bottom even with the bottom of the side skin. The fuselage cutout is
the reference, the fairlead and fairing should be lined with up that
cutout. Many of the parts have extra metal on them that will need to
be trimmed to fit.
On Mar 21, 2008, at 9:28 PM, lwinger wrote:
>
> Help. The more I study the plans, the more confused I am. The
> rudder cable outlet fairing has me stumped.
>
> On the 601XL, 6-B-4 shows an 8mm x 20mm cutout for the rudder cable,
> right above the bottom longeron. Then if you look at the drawing
> for the fairing (6-B-4-2) that would seem to put the cutout near the
> bottom of the cone-shaped exit tube. Finally, the picture of the
> nylon fairlead itself shows the forward hole almost centered under
> the cone. Which is it?
>
> Because I can't visualize the geometry of the rudder cable path yet,
> I'm concerned to move the hole in the nylon fairlead down to match
> the specified cutout location, out of concern for interference.
> Neither do I want to move it up so it exits in the center of the
> cone without some word from a builder who has installed the actual
> cables.
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues |
The responses make sense, but I have two quick follow ups.
1. On skin from the factory, is the bottom of the rudder cable cutout
aligned with the top of the bottom longeron? If not, how much is it above
that line?
2. During installation, is the slot in the nylon fairlead parallel to the
top of the longeron, or does it tip up? I don't yet know the geometry of
the rudder cable.
Larry Winger
601XL/Corvair
Tustin, CA
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cable Outlet Fairing issues |
1. As I recall, the bottom of the cutout is aligned with the top of
the longeron.
2. The cable does angle downward a bit as it passes through the
fairlead but not by much. You could leave it parallel or angle it
slightly, it won't matter much.
On Mar 21, 2008, at 11:31 PM, Larry Winger wrote:
> The responses make sense, but I have two quick follow ups.
>
> 1. On skin from the factory, is the bottom of the rudder cable
> cutout aligned with the top of the bottom longeron? If not, how
> much is it above that line?
>
> 2. During installation, is the slot in the nylon fairlead parallel
> to the top of the longeron, or does it tip up? I don't yet know the
> geometry of the rudder cable.
>
> Larry Winger
> 601XL/Corvair
> Tustin, CA
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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