Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:27 AM - XL forward fuselage top thickness (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
2. 04:07 AM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Larry H)
3. 04:29 AM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Jugle)
4. 04:56 AM - Used engine sources (James E. Lanier)
5. 05:09 AM - Re: Used engine sources (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com)
6. 06:23 AM - Re: Used engine sources (John Short)
7. 06:36 AM - Re: Used engine sources (Clyde Barcus)
8. 06:38 AM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Jaybannist@cs.com)
9. 06:49 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Jaybannist@cs.com)
10. 07:43 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (LarryMcFarland)
11. 08:38 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Tim Juhl)
12. 09:12 AM - Re: 701: Replace stab brackets? (ricklach)
13. 09:49 AM - Re: Used engine sources (Gig Giacona)
14. 10:02 AM - Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Mark Colbeck)
15. 10:46 AM - Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Craig Payne)
16. 11:12 AM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Jaybannist@cs.com)
17. 12:34 PM - 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner)
18. 12:34 PM - Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Ronald Steele)
19. 12:57 PM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
20. 01:08 PM - trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (Jimmy Mathis)
21. 01:21 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Craig Payne)
22. 02:16 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (kmccune)
23. 02:23 PM - Re: Used engine sources (kmccune)
24. 02:55 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (rroberts)
25. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Used engine sources (n801bh@netzero.com)
26. 03:39 PM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Terry Phillips)
27. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner)
28. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner)
29. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Craig Payne)
30. 04:53 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Bryan Martin)
31. 05:22 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (rroberts)
32. 05:38 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Ronald Steele)
33. 05:56 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (kmccune)
34. 06:15 PM - Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (ashontz)
35. 06:16 PM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (ashontz)
36. 06:17 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz)
37. 06:20 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz)
38. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (Gary Boothe)
39. 06:27 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Jugle)
40. 06:27 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz)
41. 06:31 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (ashontz)
42. 06:34 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (ashontz)
43. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Bending 40 thou (Art Olechowski)
44. 06:51 PM - Re: Used engine sources (kmccune)
45. 07:19 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (kmccune)
46. 07:30 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (Ron Lendon)
47. 07:40 PM - Firewall spring back (lwinger)
48. 08:35 PM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (JohnDRead@aol.com)
49. 08:56 PM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (sundaypilot)
50. 09:08 PM - jRe: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (T. Graziano)
51. 09:17 PM - NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (ZodieRocket)
52. 09:40 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Jay Maynard)
53. 09:52 PM - Re: Firewall spring back (Larry Winger)
54. 09:56 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Craig Payne)
55. 10:14 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Craig Payne)
56. 10:40 PM - Re: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Terry Phillips)
57. 11:02 PM - Re: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Terry Phillips)
Message 1
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| Subject: | XL forward fuselage top thickness |
Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready
to cut the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while the
plans show it to be .020, some of the kits and factory built aircraft
have it as .025.
I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section between
the panel side angles, firewall and instrument panel is removable via
lots of #8 screws, and the section where the canopy rail goes is riveted
in place.
Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the .020
skin and the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4 ounces.
SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the .025
material, especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance?
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD, Corvair, building...
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CNC drilled pilot holes |
The CNC holes are just pilot holes. They are your "guide" as to where to drill.
The only time it saves is the time you would have spent measuring and marking
these holes is all. Yes, you do have to deburr the skins and components after
you drill them. You will understand it all and how it works when you start
in on your rudder kit. I'm sure you will have a lot more questions so feel
free to jump in here anytime and ask. That's what we are all here for - to help
each other and learn.
Hope you enjoy building your airplane and welcome to the group!
Regards,
Larry H
sundaypilot <sundaypilot@cybermesa.com> wrote:
Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has already been
answered many times:
I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says:
NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled
skins and components.
I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this will
save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred?
Any comment welcome.
I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May.
Thanks,
Sundaypilot
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Thanks for your reply Dave.
As I mentioned in one of my other replies, I have ordered some steel hinge to replace
my existing aluminium one and have meanwhile been doing some bends starting
with wider material, with much better results.
Thanks for the tips, but above all, thanks for the great cheap brake design. Good
luck with your Sonex.
Glenn.
TxDave wrote:
> In order to make nice straight bends in thicker stock such as .040 you must have
a good quality hinge. I used the stainless ones from Air Parts, Inc.
>
> For your longerons you should make both flanges about 100mm then trim after bending.
This is a minimal waste of material and is certainly cheaper than farming
out the work.
>
> I have bent every control surface skin, and every piece of channel (including
rear spars) using a little creative thinking. For larger pieces, like control
surface skins, I always do a test bend with a 2" wide strip of aluminum.
>
> My current version of the brake is 10 feet long. I have 6 bolts. I can bend pretty
much anything I need to bend with it.
>
> Yes, I'm still here. I'm building a Sonex (long story). I'm also still a big
fan of the 601XL.
>
>
> Dave Clay
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171895#171895
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| Subject: | Used engine sources |
Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines
requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235)
Jim
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Hey Jim: Have you tried aircraft salvage? I do not know where you are
located, but Wentworth in Minnesota _http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/_
(http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/) has most everything.
Lynn Nelsen
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Barnstormers.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 6:50 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Used engine sources
> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>
> Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines
> requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235)
>
> Jim
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Jim
Call David at Wentworth, they handle used engines and they seem like good
people. Their prices seemed to be reasonable when I was shopping around so I
bought a run-out 0-200 from them. You can also check then out on the
internet.
Clyde Barcus
601 XL, Continental Powered
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 6:50 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Used engine sources
> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>
> Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines
> requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235)
>
> Jim
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | CNC drilled pilot holes |
"Sunday", whoever you are,
The predrilled pilot holes do save a lot of time, except in the case where they
are mis-drilled. I imagine that with all the feedback ZAC has gotten on this
subject, they have it down pretty good by now.
Pilot holes are just that. They are drilled to accept a 3/32" cleco. You will
have to drill out each one to fit an A4 or A5 rivet, so after drilling, you will
have to de-burr each one.
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
"sundaypilot" <sundaypilot@cybermesa.com> wrote:
>
>Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has already
been answered many times:
>
>I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says:
>
>NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled
skins and components.
>
>I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this will
save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred?
>
>Any comment welcome.
>
>I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May.
>
>Thanks,
>
> Sundaypilot
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171868#171868
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | XL forward fuselage top thickness |
Andy,
My kit came with .025 top forward skin. When I cut a great bid access hole, I surrounded the hole with .032 angles and added a brace at the top. See my drawing on www.ch601.org. One change I made from that drawing is the sealing material. I actually used a rubber electrical joint tape on the inside edges of the reinforcing angles.
Jay in Dallas
"Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott@cox.net> wrote:
>Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready to cut
the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while the plans show it
to be .020, some of the kits and factory built aircraft have it as .025.
>
>I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section between the panel
side angles, firewall and instrument panel is removable via lots of #8 screws,
and the section where the canopy rail goes is riveted in place.
>
>Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the .020 skin and
the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4 ounces.
>
>SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the .025 material,
especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance?
>
>Thanks,
>Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
>N601GE (reserved)
>601XL/TD, Corvair, building...
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness |
Hi Andy,
I'd recommend you go with .025 and use 6-32 screws in U-clips that fit
.025 to .040.
See McMaster Carr 94809A102
Part Number: 94809A102
<http://www.mcmaster.com/itm/find.ASP?tab=find&context=psrchDtlLink&fasttrack=False&searchstring=94809A102>
$13.53 per Pack of 50
Nut Type
Speed Nuts
Applications
For Machine Screws
Speed Nut Type
J-Style Clip-On Nuts
J-Style Clip-On Nuts Style
Shape 2
Material Type
Steel
Finish
Black
Grade/Class
Not Rated
Steel Type
Plain Steel
System of Measurement
Inch
Inch Thread Size
6-32
For Panel Thickness
.025"-.04"
Center of Hole to Panel Edge
.468"
Thread Direction
Right-Hand Thread
Thread Type
Standard Threads
Specifications Met
Not Rated
These are a great fastener, they're easily replaced and make the removal
and install painless.
I have about 80 of these holding the forward top skin on my 601HDS.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/uclips.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/cnpyrailcover.gif
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote:
> Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready
> to cut the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while
> the plans show it to be .020, some of the kits and factory built
> aircraft have it as .025.
>
> I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section
> between the panel side angles, firewall and instrument panel is
> removable via lots of #8 screws, and the section where the canopy rail
> goes is riveted in place.
>
> Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the
> .020 skin and the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4
> ounces.
>
> SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the
> .025 material, especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance?
>
> Thanks,
> Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
> N601GE (reserved)
> 601XL/TD, Corvair, building...
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness |
Here is a faster link to Jay's excellent drawing:
http://www.ch601.org./resources/zodiac%20updates/access%20panel/InstrAccess2.pdf
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171953#171953
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 701: Replace stab brackets? |
Hi Tony,
I would defiantly recommend replacing 7H2-6 with the heavier .063 material. The
.040 mounts on my 701 cracked out at 200 hours. There is another reason for
the cracks other than the shaking from the 912 and thats misalignment. If the
fuselage mounts 7F3-4 are not in perfect vertical alignment with 7H2-6 when they
are bolted together 7H2-6 is preloaded and distorted. Normal flight vibration
will create stress cracks in 7H2-6 because of the preloaded condition. Then
add the 912 vibration of start up and shut down and youve compounded an already
bad situation. If you decide to replace 7H2-6 spend some time making sure
that the alignment with 7F3-4 is as perfect as you can get it.
Rick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171961#171961
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Also check out an issue of Trade-A-Plane. I'm sure the FBO at your airport has
one so you don't have to subscribe.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171969#171969
Message 14
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| Subject: | Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps |
Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen position
sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" travel on actuator.
This is assuming the sensor is going next to the actuator. I though I
could save some time in trial and error an see if anyone has an answer (you guys
usually do)
Thanks
--------
CH701
70% Complete
www.mykitlog.com/mcolbeck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171974#171974
Message 15
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| Subject: | Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps |
My experience is with the 601XL and I am not sure how things are set up on
the 701. On the XL I have seen two styles of solution. In the first an arm
is attached to the shaft that rotates to actuate the flaps. One end of the
position sensor is tied to the fuselage while the other fastens to some
point on the arm. Since the arm moves less than 1.2 inches at the tube
(relative to the attachment point on the fuselage) and more than 1.2 inches
at a point further out the arm you just find the point on the arm that moves
just a bit under 1.2 inches. The pictures below are from Mike Sigman's
601XL.
Ron Geese has a clever solution that doesn't involve adding a arm. The flap
linear actuator is tied to a fixed pivot at one end and an arm on the
rotating flap tube on the other. So, again, somewhere along the actuator is
a point where the mechanism rises about 1.2 inches across the whole range of
motion. Just connect the sensor at that point. I attached two photos that
Ron sent me.
-- Craig
Mike's solution (three photos):
cid:X.MA1.1144888721@aol.com
cid:X.MA2.1144888721@aol.com
cid:X.MA3.1144888721@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Colbeck
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps
<mark@masterpieceliving.ca>
Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen
position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2"
travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the
actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if
anyone has an answer (you guys usually do)
Thanks
--------
CH701
70% Complete
www.mykitlog.com/mcolbeck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171974#171974
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| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps |
Mark,
I, too, have a 601XL. I didn't use a Ray Allen flap position sensor. I use
LOWF (pronounced "lowf"). Look Out Window at Flaps. ;-)
Jay in Dallas
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| Subject: | 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
My left arm is weak because of an old shoulder injury so I found it
difficult extending the flaps on my new 701. It took two hands, so whenever
I used the flaps I had to let go the stick, and the plane would start to
dive before I regained control. not good close to the ground!
So I looked around for alternatives. I rejected electric flaps because I
didn't want to increase the potential for failures (shorts, motor burn-outs,
etc). Michael Heintz at Quality Sport Plane in Northern Ca. came to the
rescue with the perfect solution, a flap handle with mechanical advantage.
It is very easy to deploy the flaps using this device and even gives a few
more degrees of flap if you need them (see two attached pictures). You can
visit Quality Sport at <http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_023.htm>
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_023.htm if you are interested in
purchasing one.
FYI, Michael and Quality Sport were very helpful during the construction of
my 701, and Michael is an excellent 701 pilot. A back-country flying DVD,
which was produced by Christopher Desmond, features flying by Michael (and
Christopher). This DVD is really great! The photography and the STOL flying
far exceed anything I have ever seen; Hollywood couldn't do better! Cameras
were mounted on the wing, inside the cockpit, and looking up from the
ground. Flights go into canyons, land on river banks, and fly from small
gravel and grass strips. This video is truly spectacular. If you're
interested, I recommend previewing the DVD on YouTube at
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbBb_IuT1_o>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbBb_IuT1_o or contact Christopher to order
the full DVD at <http://www.stol-adventures.com/>
http://www.stol-adventures.com/.
Regards,
Les
Message 18
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| Subject: | Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot |
At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to
remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the
hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the
clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a
601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to
modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.
Ron
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness |
Use .025 I have zenith make every skin on my kits .025 and all control
surfaces .020. It gives you a much better airframe.
Jeff
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 20
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| Subject: | trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit |
Hey guys:
I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for
trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would
like to trade for an equal value center console bay
boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer.
The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit
is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price
on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is
still in the box except for rudder which will fit in
box. Located in Texas.
Jimmy Mathis
jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net
409 385-7892
Message 21
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| Subject: | Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot |
Actually I was told by an owner of an XL with *hinged* ailerons that his
Trio Avionics servo slipped. But since he had a two axis system I don't know
which servo was slipping. The installation of the altitude hold servo was a
little unusual on this plane. It was mounted on the firewall (pictures
attached).
BTW: this was one of the two "twin" XLs built at Quality Sport Planes in
California by Alan and Steve Smith. I can't recall if it was Alan or Steve
who mentioned the slippage. But their two planes are essentially identical.
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_072.htm
Others have said that in flight most of the stick force comes from the wind
over ailerons and that the type of hinge was only a small factor.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Steele
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot
At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to
remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the
hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the
clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a
601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to
modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.
Ron
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
I like the idea, the stock system is pretty poor, what are the flap angles?
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172014#172014
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Don't know a whole lot about them, but they are inexpensive and the design at least
is proven. I don't know about the latest quality control.
http://www.franklinengines.com/4a.cfm
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172017#172017
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Les,
More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it and do they sell them?
--------
Low & Slow
Rick
www.n701rr.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Hers's my two cents worth... When I was looking fo a 220 HP Franklin for
my 801 I saw an ad for this dealer in Colorado. He advertised the 220 a
t 16,000.00$ complete in several magazines. So I called him and was rea
dy to drive down to pay him and pick up the new motor. Turns out the mot
or needed mags, carb, exhaust system, tin, alternator, yada,yada,yada,,,
,, Then,, after he feeds me all this BS he says," the 16,000.00 price is
if you go to Poland and pick it up. If you want one from my stock here
in Colorado the cost will be 18,999.00. I have not looked back since. He
probably was a used car salesman in a previous life. :<(......
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net> wrote:
Don't know a whole lot about them, but they are inexpensive and the desi
gn at least is proven. I don't know about the latest quality control.
http://www.franklinengines.com/4a.cfm
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the t
hings that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the b
owlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your s
ails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172017#172017
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
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_____________________________________________________________
Click to receive information from occupational therapy schools near you.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/REAK6aBdfmdeO3DOoXGV8QJSI
BKOddKm6KeUJ8DUw87lPIpnEVJ9Oq/
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps |
I have considered a flap indicator problem for my 601. The solutions
already mentioned would accommodate the R.A. Allen indicator. I'd like to
suggest a cheaper, simpler indicator.
Yesterday I visited Clayton, my EAA Tech Counselor at his hangar in Helena.
He showed me the homemade flap indicator on his RV-6. The RV-6 flap
appeared to rotate on an axle or hinges located at the center of the flap.
He just painted suitable lines on the skin of his flap around the rotation
axle so that the exposed line indicated the angle. Then glancing over his
left shoulder, he could read the deflection angle directly by seeing which
lines were exposed. 'Sorry, I didn't get any pictures. Obviously, this only
works in daylight.
That concept won't work with the 601 because the flap is hinged at the
bottom, instead of rotating on a central pivot. So, I've been thinking
about suitable visual indicators for the 601.
So far what I've come up with is shown, sort of, in the attached sketch.
The idea is to rivet a short piece of L-angle to the forward skin of the
flange, maybe 3/4" below the top, with the web vertical. Then put a #8
screw through the web of the angle to produce a pivot for a piece of ~10 or
12 AWG aluminum wire that would extend into the wing through an ~1/8" hole
in the rear spar. Paint the wire black and then paint on white rings for
10, 20, and 30=B0 (or whatever) flap positions. A quick glance would confirm
the flap position. I'd place it just outside rear rib #4, so it wouldn't
get stepped on during entry.
Has anyone implemented a similar indicator? If so, how has it worked?
Comments?
Terry
At 09:59 AM 3/23/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen
>position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2"
>travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the
>actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if
>anyone has an answer (you guys usually do)
>Thanks
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Rick,
My understanding is that Michael has a machinist make up a batch when he
gets a few orders. I think the price for the control was about $300+.
Suggest you contact Quality Sport to find out about availability and exact
price.
It took me about 1/2 a day to do the installation. I used the same rivet
holes that the old flap handle sat on. You have to cut the flap handle off
and insert a cylindrical fitting, that comes with the unit, into the
remaining flap control tube. This fitting has an adjustable threaded end
that attaches to the new control arm. It takes almost no effort to extend or
raise the flaps and its easy to see just where your flaps are set (each
detent is about 5-degrees of flap).
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rroberts
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:52 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD
>
>
> Les,
> More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it
> and do they sell them?
>
> --------
> Low & Slow
> Rick
> www.n701rr.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Kevin,
The flap angles are approximately 5, 10, 15, and 20-degrees. I have been
told to use care extending to 20-degrees because Zenith once provided about
25-degrees of flap and some people "got in trouble" using it.
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:13 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD
>
>
> I like the idea, the stock system is pretty poor, what are
> the flap angles?
>
> Kevin
>
> --------
> Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more
> disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the
> ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from
> the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
> Explore. Dream. Discover.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172014#172014
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Details and more photos here:
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_084.htm
The name "Kube Kontrol" apparently comes from the designed/machinist: Robert
Kube
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:56 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Rick,
My understanding is that Michael has a machinist make up a batch when he
gets a few orders. I think the price for the control was about $300+.
Suggest you contact Quality Sport to find out about availability and exact
price.
It took me about 1/2 a day to do the installation. I used the same rivet
holes that the old flap handle sat on. You have to cut the flap handle off
and insert a cylindrical fitting, that comes with the unit, into the
remaining flap control tube. This fitting has an adjustable threaded end
that attaches to the new control arm. It takes almost no effort to extend or
raise the flaps and its easy to see just where your flaps are set (each
detent is about 5-degrees of flap).
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rroberts
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:52 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD
>
>
> Les,
> More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it
> and do they sell them?
>
> --------
> Low & Slow
> Rick
> www.n701rr.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot |
One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the hingeless
ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to have no
problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A group of us
flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar day a few of
years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip.
On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:
>
> At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to
> remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the
> hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the
> clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a
> 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to
> modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.
>
> Ron
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Maybe with this handle I won't go inverted again when flaps come in! [Wink]
Thanks all, will order mine tomorrow.
--------
Low & Slow
Rick
www.n701rr.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172051#172051
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot |
Great, this is just the kind of info I was hoping would show up.
Hingeless it is!
Ron
On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the
> hingeless ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to
> have no problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A
> group of us flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar
> day a few of years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip.
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:
>
>>
>> At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem
>> to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with
>> the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them
>> caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with
>> autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really
>> not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems
>> down the road.
>>
>> Ron
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> do not archive.
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD |
Thanks and don't worry, I'm interested in the increments, not a speed brake.
Kevin
[quote="lgold(at)quantum-associat"]Kevin,
The flap angles are approximately 5, 10, 15, and 20-degrees. I have been
told to use care extending to 20-degrees because Zenith once provided about
25-degrees of flap and some people "got in trouble" using it.
Les
> --
:
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172063#172063
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit |
Huh, you want a boat/engine/trailer combo in excahnge for $350 worth of rudder?
tallow_98(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> Hey guys:
>
> I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for
> trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would
> like to trade for an equal value center console bay
> boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer.
> The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit
> is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price
> on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is
> still in the box except for rudder which will fit in
> box. Located in Texas.
>
> Jimmy Mathis
> jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net
> 409 385-7892
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172067#172067
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps |
Go down to Boater's World and pickup an trim sender for about $35.
Mark Colbeck wrote:
> Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen position
sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" travel on
actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the actuator. I though
I could save some time in trial and error an see if anyone has an answer (you
guys usually do)
> Thanks
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172068#172068
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Dave isn't building a 601XL anymore????!!!!
dan(at)hillsgun.com wrote:
> Hi Glenn: I don't have the answer for your bending questions, but Dave is no
> longer building a Zenith. Quite some time ago he sold his project and is now
> working on scratchbuilding a Sonex. Dan.
>
> --
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172069#172069
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it didn't
budge in the clamp.
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154
Jugle wrote:
> Hi Scratchbuilders,
>
> I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you
solved it.
>
> I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it has been working fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with some 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping under the top plate and the effort required has begun pulling the rivets on the piano hinge.
>
> Do I:
> 1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop?
> 2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer?
> 3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely results
in a lot of waste?
>
> How did you do it?
>
> Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does anyone know if he's still building?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Glenn.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172072#172072
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit |
I think he said he has the kit.
Gary Boothe
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ashontz
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit
Huh, you want a boat/engine/trailer combo in excahnge for $350 worth of
rudder?
tallow_98(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> Hey guys:
>
> I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for
> trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would
> like to trade for an equal value center console bay
> boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer.
> The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit
> is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price
> on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is
> still in the box except for rudder which will fit in
> box. Located in Texas.
>
> Jimmy Mathis
> jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net
> 409 385-7892
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172067#172067
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
That's a fine brake Andy, unfortunately space dictated what I could use, so Dave's
brake on the bench edge is great.
ashontz wrote:
> Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it
didn't budge in the clamp.
>
> http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154
>
> Probably the reason it's clamping well is because there's only two clmap points,
front and back, instead of the entire flat surface of the fat edge of an L.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172073#172073
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Dude, what happened??? You were one of my "Damn the torpedos!" motivators. Private
e-mail me.
TxDave wrote:
> In order to make nice straight bends in thicker stock such as .040 you must have
a good quality hinge. I used the stainless ones from Air Parts, Inc.
>
> For your longerons you should make both flanges about 100mm then trim after bending.
This is a minimal waste of material and is certainly cheaper than farming
out the work.
>
> I have bent every control surface skin, and every piece of channel (including
rear spars) using a little creative thinking. For larger pieces, like control
surface skins, I always do a test bend with a 2" wide strip of aluminum.
>
> My current version of the brake is 10 feet long. I have 6 bolts. I can bend pretty
much anything I need to bend with it.
>
> Yes, I'm still here. I'm building a Sonex (long story). I'm also still a big
fan of the 601XL.
>
>
> Dave Clay
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172074#172074
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? |
I agree. Great engine, it's just needs some help becoming a true aircraft engine.
Not much hlep, but some help. I' ve got 3 of them now ready to be rebuilt and
just looking at them, you can see the aircraft engine in them. But they do
need a little help getting there.
Ron Lendon wrote:
> The corvair engine really wasn't designed for spinning a propeller. Having the
5th bearing will take some of the precession loads out of the crank and transfer
them to the engine case.
>
> If you fly the engine gently you will probably never have any problems with crank breakage. I am having the www.roysgarage.com made for my plane just for more peace of mind.
>
> Today I dropped the case and crank off to Roy and showed him a full size blue
print of the 1958 machining drawings of the engine. He did take some notes.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172077#172077
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| Subject: | Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? |
By the way, how far apart do you two live? Geoff Heap and I are about 3 miles from
each other. I'll tell you what, having other builders, that you actually like
no less (I invited him to my wedding, we get together at least twice a month
if not more), is friggin' priceless.
Ron Lendon wrote:
> The corvair engine really wasn't designed for spinning a propeller. Having the
5th bearing will take some of the precession loads out of the crank and transfer
them to the engine case.
>
> If you fly the engine gently you will probably never have any problems with crank breakage. I am having the www.roysgarage.com made for my plane just for more peace of mind.
>
> Today I dropped the case and crank off to Roy and showed him a full size blue
print of the 1958 machining drawings of the engine. He did take some notes.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172080#172080
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Bending 40 thou |
Andy,
Nice....Is see a business opportunity, when are you going into production?
Art
701 Scratchin'
--- ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
>
> Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it
didn't budge in
> the clamp.
>
> http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154
>
>
> Jugle wrote:
> > Hi Scratchbuilders,
> >
> > I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you
solved it.
> >
> > I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it has been working
> fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with some 0.040 flanges.
They keep slipping
> under the top plate and the effort required has begun pulling the rivets on the
piano hinge.
> >
> > Do I:
> > 1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop?
> > 2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer?
> > 3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely results
in a lot of
> waste?
> >
> > How did you do it?
> >
> > Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does anyone know if he's
> still building?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Glenn.
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172072#172072
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Used engine sources |
Just going by the website, like I said don't know much about them, one way or the
other.
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172082#172082
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? |
I agree with ashontz, but I'm building a 701 and the corvair is already a little
bit heavy for it. I'm not so concerned about the W&B but more about payload
and range. I'm betting performance wise... its kick a$$ though. If I were building
a 601 I'd have a corvair, continental or maybe an older franklin (don't know
anything about the new ones)
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172092#172092
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? |
Andy,
Roy and I are about 3 hours apart by car. I made the trip out to see what he was
doing because it looked important, it was.
Yesterday we met where we were both crossing paths about half way to transfer the
case and crank and oil pump.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172097#172097
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| Subject: | Firewall spring back |
Fellow scratch builders,
I'm making the form blocks for my 601XL firewall. Any words of advice on how to
taper the top (14 degrees open), sides (3 degrees open) and bottom (10 degree
closed)?
Also, any special tips of forming the .018" galvanized steel?
Thanks.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL/Corvair from scratch
Control surfaces and wings complete.
Bottom rear fuselage done
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172100#172100
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: CNC drilled pilot holes |
The CNC holes are pilot holes so they have to be deburred only when they are
opened up to the correct size. The time saved is considerable as one does
not have to lay out the holes initially.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:10:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
sundaypilot@cybermesa.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "sundaypilot" <sundaypilot@cybermesa.com>
Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has
already been answered many times:
I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says:
NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and
pre-drilled skins and components.
I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this
will save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred?
Any comment welcome.
I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May.
Thanks,
Sundaypilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171868#171868
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: CNC drilled pilot holes |
Thanks everybody for your replies!
There seems to be a lot of collective Zodiac knowledge/experience gathered here.
I will come back every day now to see what's new.
And I haven't even started building yet ...
Thanks again everybody!
Thomas (Tom) Spickermann
Hernandez, New Mexico
sundaypilot@cybermesa.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172118#172118
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: jRe: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot |
I have been flying a Trio EZ-Pilot II on my XL with hinge-less ailerons
for 360 hrs. No problems. One of the best things I installed, in my
opinion.
Tony Graziano
N493TG
---------------------------------------------------------------
Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot
From: Ronald Steele (rsteele@rjsit.com)
Date: Sun Mar 23 - 12:34 PM
At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to
remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the
hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the
clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a
601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to
modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.
Ron
Message 51
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| Subject: | NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane |
True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but
be VERY concerned !!!
Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written
below, but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA
from a call I had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be
cautious of crossing the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I
have been told that one plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a
respected source.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com <http://www.can-zacaviation.com/>
Should New Aircraft Owners 'Avoid Florida?'
Welcome To The Sunshine State... NOT
<http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?ContentBlockID=b8527739-b125-
4922-a224-cf789ea94039#d#d>
<http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?ContentBlockID=b8527739-b125-
4922-a224-cf789ea94039#d#d> It appears Florida's tax personnel are
targeting new airplane owners in ways that do not exactly make them feel
welcome to the state.
Over the course of the last few weeks, ANN has learned of a number of
issues that have arisen when owners of new aircraft, generally within
the first six months of the sale, have been targeted for "use tax" by
agents of the state's Department of Revenue... despite the fact that the
targeted aircraft were not owned or operated by state residents.
It starts like this... you buy a new or used aircraft and sign the bill
of sale... which starts "the clock." It is Florida's position that for
the next six months (possibly thereafter, though the burden of proof
reportedly changes at that point), the state has the right to exact the
requisite "Use Tax" (Sales Tax) for the fact you partook of the state's
services unless you can show an equivalent Use or Sales Tax receipt from
another state...
In other words, for those of you who may have bought a $500K Cessna,
Cirrus, Columbia, etc... unless you can prove that you paid the
equivalent use tax in another state, you owe the state of Florida some
$30K if you visited the state in the first six months of your ownership.
Mind you, if your sales/use tax bill comes from a state that exacts LESS
tax than Florida, the FL Department of Revenue still expects you to pony
up the difference... and if you're from a state that exacts a minimum
fee (like the few hundred dollars for owners in South Carolina), they
will bill you for the WHOLE difference... and its up to you to fight
them on it. No kidding.
It makes NO difference to the state if you have any property in Florida,
or whether you bought the airplane there, or if you have ANY business
interests whatsoever in the state... If Florida catches you here and if
they can find a way to stick you with a tax bill, they will.
According to the Florida Tax Code, "There shall be a presumption that
any aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle
purchased in another state, territory of the United States, or the
District of Columbia but titled, registered, or licensed in this state
is taxable except as otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule.
This presumption may be rebutted only by documentary evidence that the
person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle
purchased the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle in another
state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia six
(6) months or more prior to the time it is brought into this state. In
order for such property to be presumed exempt as purchased for use
outside Florida, the person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home,
motor vehicle, or other vehicle must provide documentary proof that such
property was used in other states, territories of the United States, or
the District of Columbia for six months or longer under conditions which
would lawfully give rise to the taxing jurisdiction of another state,
territory, or District of Columbia and any lawfully imposed tax was paid
to such state, territory, or District of Columbia before being imported
into this state. However, the rental or lease of any aircraft, boat,
mobile home, or motor vehicle which is used or stored in this state is
taxable without regard to its prior use or tax paid on the purchase
outside this state."
Why? Because they can. The very liberal Florida tax code allows them to
tax aircraft if they operate at any time during the first six months of
a purchase in the state... and according to some interpretations, there
may be some legal justification for Florida to tax you if you so much as
fly OVER the state.
This problem has been known for a while but recent ramp checks by FL DOR
personnel have apparently stepped up, and snagged at least one Cirrus
owner and a Meridian owner who came back to Florida to undertake flight
training in his new airplane. The Cirrus owner is on the hook for some
$30K in additional taxes... the Meridian owner -- well over $100K.
Welcome to Florida, folks, please remove the knife from your back as you
cross back over the state lines...
<http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?ContentBlockID=b8527739-b125-
4922-a224-cf789ea94039#d#d>
<http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?ContentBlockID=b8527739-b125-
4922-a224-cf789ea94039#d#d> A spokesperson for the FL DOR, Rene Watters,
is unapologetic for the issue, telling ANN that they are simply doing
their jobs and that if anyone has a problem with that, to "take it up
with the legislature." This matter, of course, can be appealed through
the courts... but this route necessitates expensive and time consuming
litigation, via the use of a trained tax attorney... and you may still
lose, after all. Catch 22.
Other DOR staffers opine that aircraft owners have it particularly hard,
since they admit that RVs and boats get a somewhat more permissive
treatment from them, "...Probably due to better lobbying on the part of
their industry reps."
Regardless; it's spooking a number of aircraft owners... we spoke with
an avionics shop in Northern Florida that lost some business due to the
concern expressed by an aircraft owner over bringing his airplane into
the state shortly after he bought it, and Piper is reportedly NOT
pleased about the Meridian tax bill noted above... especially at a time
when the state is trying to con (uh, convince) Piper to locate the
PiperJet facility within the state.
We have a feeling that Piper CEO Jim Bass may have a few things to say,
as a result of these recent events, since anyone taking delivery at a
Florida Piper plant may find themselves with a tax bill, even if they
leave the state right away and never darken the state's borders again.
In the meantime, the recent escalation in DOR ramp inspections is
getting aggressive attention from the aviation business community --
and we expect to get some feedback on the matter shortly... we'll update
you as to what occurs.
Portions Copyright C 1999-2008 by Aero-News Network, Inc. All rights
reserved.
For more info please visit
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane |
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:15:04PM -0500, ZodieRocket wrote:
> True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but
> be VERY concerned !!!
>
> Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written
> below, but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA
> from a call I had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be
> cautious of crossing the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I
> have been told that one plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a
> respected source.
Those of you who know the history of the Aero News Network may be tempted to
write it off as ranting intended to get in the way of Sun n Fun. Don't. AOPA
is also reporting the issue, and I heard it first from AOPA president Phil
Boyer at a town meeting.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall spring back |
A quick follow up to my questions.
I do have quite a bit of experience in making form blocks for my rudder,
horizontal stab, flaps, ailerons and wing ribs. I'm really asking about the
uniqueness of this part's material (galvanized steel) and the open flanges
(3 and 14 degrees).
Thanks again.
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:36 PM, lwinger <larrywinger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Fellow scratch builders,
>
> I'm making the form blocks for my 601XL firewall. Any words of advice on
> how to taper the top (14 degrees open), sides (3 degrees open) and bottom
> (10 degree closed)?
>
> Also, any special tips of forming the .018" galvanized steel?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL/Corvair from scratch
> Control surfaces and wings complete.
> Bottom rear fuselage done
> www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172100#172100
>
>
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| Subject: | NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane |
I can't say if this is true about Florida. But Maine has been mentioned a
lot in the aviation press recently for similar reasons:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/12/30/plane_owners_stunned_by
_out_of_state_taxes/
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070608me.html
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ZodieRocket
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:15 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane
True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but be
VERY concerned !!!
Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written below,
but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA from a call I
had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be cautious of crossing
the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I have been told that one
plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a respected source.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com <http://www.can-zacaviation.com/>
Should New Aircraft Owners 'Avoid Florida?'
Welcome To The Sunshine State... NOT
It appears Florida's tax personnel are targeting new airplane owners in ways
that do not exactly make them feel welcome to the state.
Over the course of the last few weeks, ANN has learned of a number of issues
that have arisen when owners of new aircraft, generally within the first six
months of the sale, have been targeted for "use tax" by agents of the
state's Department of Revenue... despite the fact that the targeted aircraft
were not owned or operated by state residents.
It starts like this... you buy a new or used aircraft and sign the bill of
sale... which starts "the clock." It is Florida's position that for the next
six months (possibly thereafter, though the burden of proof reportedly
changes at that point), the state has the right to exact the requisite "Use
Tax" (Sales Tax) for the fact you partook of the state's services unless you
can show an equivalent Use or Sales Tax receipt from another state...
In other words, for those of you who may have bought a $500K Cessna, Cirrus,
Columbia, etc... unless you can prove that you paid the equivalent use tax
in another state, you owe the state of Florida some $30K if you visited the
state in the first six months of your ownership. Mind you, if your sales/use
tax bill comes from a state that exacts LESS tax than Florida, the FL
Department of Revenue still expects you to pony up the difference... and if
you're from a state that exacts a minimum fee (like the few hundred dollars
for owners in South Carolina), they will bill you for the WHOLE
difference... and its up to you to fight them on it. No kidding.
It makes NO difference to the state if you have any property in Florida, or
whether you bought the airplane there, or if you have ANY business interests
whatsoever in the state... If Florida catches you here and if they can find
a way to stick you with a tax bill, they will.
According to the Florida Tax Code, "There shall be a presumption that any
aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle purchased in
another state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia
but titled, registered, or licensed in this state is taxable except as
otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule. This presumption may be
rebutted only by documentary evidence that the person owning the aircraft,
boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle purchased the aircraft, boat, mobile
home, or motor vehicle in another state, territory of the United States, or
the District of Columbia six (6) months or more prior to the time it is
brought into this state. In order for such property to be presumed exempt as
purchased for use outside Florida, the person owning the aircraft, boat,
mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle must provide documentary proof
that such property was used in other states, territories of the United
States, or the District of Columbia for six months or longer under
conditions which would lawfully give rise to the taxing jurisdiction of
another state, territory, or District of Columbia and any lawfully imposed
tax was paid to such state, territory, or District of Columbia before being
imported into this state. However, the rental or lease of any aircraft,
boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle which is used or stored in this state is
taxable without regard to its prior use or tax paid on the purchase outside
this state."
Why? Because they can. The very liberal Florida tax code allows them to tax
aircraft if they operate at any time during the first six months of a
purchase in the state... and according to some interpretations, there may be
some legal justification for Florida to tax you if you so much as fly OVER
the state.
This problem has been known for a while but recent ramp checks by FL DOR
personnel have apparently stepped up, and snagged at least one Cirrus owner
and a Meridian owner who came back to Florida to undertake flight training
in his new airplane. The Cirrus owner is on the hook for some $30K in
additional taxes... the Meridian owner -- well over $100K.
Welcome to Florida, folks, please remove the knife from your back as you
cross back over the state lines...
A spokesperson for the FL DOR, Rene Watters, is unapologetic for the issue,
telling ANN that they are simply doing their jobs and that if anyone has a
problem with that, to "take it up with the legislature." This matter, of
course, can be appealed through the courts... but this route necessitates
expensive and time consuming litigation, via the use of a trained tax
attorney... and you may still lose, after all. Catch 22.
Other DOR staffers opine that aircraft owners have it particularly hard,
since they admit that RVs and boats get a somewhat more permissive treatment
from them, "...Probably due to better lobbying on the part of their industry
reps."
Regardless; it's spooking a number of aircraft owners... we spoke with an
avionics shop in Northern Florida that lost some business due to the concern
expressed by an aircraft owner over bringing his airplane into the state
shortly after he bought it, and Piper is reportedly NOT pleased about the
Meridian tax bill noted above... especially at a time when the state is
trying to con (uh, convince) Piper to locate the PiperJet facility within
the state.
We have a feeling that Piper CEO Jim Bass may have a few things to say, as a
result of these recent events, since anyone taking delivery at a Florida
Piper plant may find themselves with a tax bill, even if they leave the
state right away and never darken the state's borders again.
In the meantime, the recent escalation in DOR ramp inspections is getting
aggressive attention from the aviation business community -- and we expect
to get some feedback on the matter shortly... we'll update you as to what
occurs.
Portions Copyright C 1999-2008 by Aero-News Network, Inc. All rights
reserved.
For more info please visit
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm
Message 55
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| Subject: | NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane |
Google found this on EAA's site but it has since disappeared. I wonder if it
was retracted:
Sun 'n Fun Calls Reports of Florida Use Tax Inaccurate
March 21, 2008 - Recent reports of "use taxes" being levied on airplanes
owned by non-resident visitors to Florida are not accurate, according to
officials at Sun 'n Fun Fly-In at Lakeland, Florida, whose annual aviation
season kick-off takes place the week of April 8-13. Sun 'n Fun has fielded
numerous calls from concerned pilots and exhibitors worried about the report
and is looking to alleviate those concerns.
"I've talked with the General Counsel of the Florida Department of Revenue
and he assured me that, number 1, there will not be state tax agents doing
ramp checks, and that out-of-state pilots have nothing to fear," said John
Burton, Sun 'n Fun president. The Florida DoR informed Burton that the tax
affects only those owners who have purchased their airplane in another state
(outside Florida) within the past six months, but who have the aircraft
titled and registered in Florida and have not paid Florida sales tax on that
airplane.
Sun 'n Fun received correspondence from Florida Department of Revenue
Executive Director Lisa Echeverri dated March 19, 2008, that includes the
statement: "Florida does not assess a use tax on non-resident aircraft
owners in every circumstance where an aircraft is brought to Florida within
the first six months."
"It does not impact Sun 'n Fun exhibitors and aircraft dealers; it does not
impact aircraft owners who have owned their aircraft for more than six
months," Burton said. "The idea of having somebody who has purchased an
airplane out of state and is not a resident of FL, getting charged a use tax
here is absolutely ludicrous.
"It's a classic case of much ado about nothing."
Pat Phillips, a member of the EAA Legal Advisory Council as well as Sun 'n
Fun air show chairman and a fly-in director, is familiar with the situation.
"If somebody goes out of state and buys an airplane in a state that charges
no sales tax and brings it to Florida, and the airplane is based in Florida,
the buyer lives in Florida, and is using the airplane in Florida, yes, he
would owe a 6 percent use tax," he said.
"Now, if a transient aircraft comes into Florida from a state where they
have not paid sales tax on the aircraft or are just visiting here, they
would have no obligation to pay a use tax in the state of Florida just for
using their airplane while visiting in the state," he said. "And I believe
constitutionally that would be in conflict with the commerce laws of the
U.S."
Phillips added, "If a person, willingly or innocently, avoids sales tax by
buying out of state but bases his aircraft in Florida and lives in the
state, then the use tax obligation may apply. But for a person who simply
flies down to Florida but lives in another state, he will not be assessed a
tax. It's preposterous to even think the state would impose a sales tax."
When EAA's Government Affairs department learned about the Florida use tax
story, it responded immediately by contacting its Legal Advisory Council,
which worked with Sun 'n Fun management to get official clarification from
the Florida Department of Revenue.
"This is a good example of how our staff, working with the council, was able
to get to the bottom of this story and help clarify this situation," said
Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulatory affairs.
"Hopefully this will put to rest the concerns of non-Florida residents who
intend to fly into the state for Sun 'n Fun, or any time, for that matter."
-- Craig
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: CNC drilled pilot holes |
Tom
Glad to hear that there is going to be a 601 down in NNM. I retired out of
LANL in 2004 and moved to MT in 2005. I feel so lucky to have missed the
turmoil of the past few years. In fact, I got out just before Nanos'
shutdown. That was a great summer to be out of the lab.
Do you plan to fly out of Espanola or LAM? I've been to the Espanola
airport, but only for some RC stuff. I do hope to fly to LAM after I finish
my 601.
Good luck with yours.
Terry
ESA-EPE, retired
At 08:53 PM 3/23/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks everybody for your replies!
>
>There seems to be a lot of collective Zodiac knowledge/experience gathered
>here. I will come back every day now to see what's new.
>And I haven't even started building yet ...
>
>Thanks again everybody!
>
>Thomas (Tom) Spickermann
>Hernandez, New Mexico
>sundaypilot@cybermesa.com
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: CNC drilled pilot holes |
Whoops!
'Sorry, I had intended my previous note to be off the list.
Terry
do not archive!
At 11:25 PM 3/23/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>Tom
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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