---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/23/08: 57 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - XL forward fuselage top thickness (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 2. 04:07 AM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Larry H) 3. 04:29 AM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Jugle) 4. 04:56 AM - Used engine sources (James E. Lanier) 5. 05:09 AM - Re: Used engine sources (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com) 6. 06:23 AM - Re: Used engine sources (John Short) 7. 06:36 AM - Re: Used engine sources (Clyde Barcus) 8. 06:38 AM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Jaybannist@cs.com) 9. 06:49 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Jaybannist@cs.com) 10. 07:43 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (LarryMcFarland) 11. 08:38 AM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Tim Juhl) 12. 09:12 AM - Re: 701: Replace stab brackets? (ricklach) 13. 09:49 AM - Re: Used engine sources (Gig Giacona) 14. 10:02 AM - Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Mark Colbeck) 15. 10:46 AM - Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Craig Payne) 16. 11:12 AM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Jaybannist@cs.com) 17. 12:34 PM - 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner) 18. 12:34 PM - Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Ronald Steele) 19. 12:57 PM - Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 20. 01:08 PM - trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (Jimmy Mathis) 21. 01:21 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Craig Payne) 22. 02:16 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (kmccune) 23. 02:23 PM - Re: Used engine sources (kmccune) 24. 02:55 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (rroberts) 25. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Used engine sources (n801bh@netzero.com) 26. 03:39 PM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (Terry Phillips) 27. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner) 28. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Les Goldner) 29. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (Craig Payne) 30. 04:53 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Bryan Martin) 31. 05:22 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (rroberts) 32. 05:38 PM - Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (Ronald Steele) 33. 05:56 PM - Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD (kmccune) 34. 06:15 PM - Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (ashontz) 35. 06:16 PM - Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps (ashontz) 36. 06:17 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz) 37. 06:20 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz) 38. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit (Gary Boothe) 39. 06:27 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (Jugle) 40. 06:27 PM - Re: Bending 40 thou (ashontz) 41. 06:31 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (ashontz) 42. 06:34 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (ashontz) 43. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Bending 40 thou (Art Olechowski) 44. 06:51 PM - Re: Used engine sources (kmccune) 45. 07:19 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (kmccune) 46. 07:30 PM - Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? (Ron Lendon) 47. 07:40 PM - Firewall spring back (lwinger) 48. 08:35 PM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (JohnDRead@aol.com) 49. 08:56 PM - Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (sundaypilot) 50. 09:08 PM - jRe: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot (T. Graziano) 51. 09:17 PM - NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (ZodieRocket) 52. 09:40 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Jay Maynard) 53. 09:52 PM - Re: Firewall spring back (Larry Winger) 54. 09:56 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Craig Payne) 55. 10:14 PM - Re: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane (Craig Payne) 56. 10:40 PM - Re: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Terry Phillips) 57. 11:02 PM - Re: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes (Terry Phillips) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:50 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: XL forward fuselage top thickness Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready to cut the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while the plans show it to be .020, some of the kits and factory built aircraft have it as .025. I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section between the panel side angles, firewall and instrument panel is removable via lots of #8 screws, and the section where the canopy rail goes is riveted in place. Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the .020 skin and the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4 ounces. SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the .025 material, especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:40 AM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CNC drilled pilot holes The CNC holes are just pilot holes. They are your "guide" as to where to drill. The only time it saves is the time you would have spent measuring and marking these holes is all. Yes, you do have to deburr the skins and components after you drill them. You will understand it all and how it works when you start in on your rudder kit. I'm sure you will have a lot more questions so feel free to jump in here anytime and ask. That's what we are all here for - to help each other and learn. Hope you enjoy building your airplane and welcome to the group! Regards, Larry H sundaypilot wrote: Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has already been answered many times: I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says: NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled skins and components. I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this will save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred? Any comment welcome. I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May. Thanks, Sundaypilot --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou From: "Jugle" Thanks for your reply Dave. As I mentioned in one of my other replies, I have ordered some steel hinge to replace my existing aluminium one and have meanwhile been doing some bends starting with wider material, with much better results. Thanks for the tips, but above all, thanks for the great cheap brake design. Good luck with your Sonex. Glenn. TxDave wrote: > In order to make nice straight bends in thicker stock such as .040 you must have a good quality hinge. I used the stainless ones from Air Parts, Inc. > > For your longerons you should make both flanges about 100mm then trim after bending. This is a minimal waste of material and is certainly cheaper than farming out the work. > > I have bent every control surface skin, and every piece of channel (including rear spars) using a little creative thinking. For larger pieces, like control surface skins, I always do a test bend with a 2" wide strip of aluminum. > > My current version of the brake is 10 feet long. I have 6 bolts. I can bend pretty much anything I need to bend with it. > > Yes, I'm still here. I'm building a Sonex (long story). I'm also still a big fan of the 601XL. > > > Dave Clay -------- Glenn Andressen 601XL- just started. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171895#171895 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:36 AM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Zenith-List: Used engine sources Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235) Jim ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:01 AM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Used engine sources Hey Jim: Have you tried aircraft salvage? I do not know where you are located, but Wentworth in Minnesota _http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/_ (http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/) has most everything. Lynn Nelsen **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:45 AM PST US From: "John Short" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Used engine sources Barnstormers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Lanier" Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 6:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Used engine sources > > > Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines > requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235) > > Jim > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:34 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Used engine sources Jim Call David at Wentworth, they handle used engines and they seem like good people. Their prices seemed to be reasonable when I was shopping around so I bought a run-out 0-200 from them. You can also check then out on the internet. Clyde Barcus 601 XL, Continental Powered ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Lanier" Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 6:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Used engine sources > > > Can anyone help me find a source for used overhauled or used engines > requiring overhaul? (Continental O-200 or Lycoming O-235) > > Jim > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:18 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CNC drilled pilot holes "Sunday", whoever you are, The predrilled pilot holes do save a lot of time, except in the case where they are mis-drilled. I imagine that with all the feedback ZAC has gotten on this subject, they have it down pretty good by now. Pilot holes are just that. They are drilled to accept a 3/32" cleco. You will have to drill out each one to fit an A4 or A5 rivet, so after drilling, you will have to de-burr each one. Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" "sundaypilot" wrote: > >Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has already been answered many times: > >I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says: > >NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled skins and components. > >I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this will save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred? > >Any comment welcome. > >I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May. > >Thanks, > > Sundaypilot > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171868#171868 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:42 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL forward fuselage top thickness Andy, My kit came with .025 top forward skin. When I cut a great bid access hole, I surrounded the hole with .032 angles and added a brace at the top. See my drawing on www.ch601.org. One change I made from that drawing is the sealing material. I actually used a rubber electrical joint tape on the inside edges of the reinforcing angles. Jay in Dallas "Dr. Andrew Elliott" wrote: >Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready to cut the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while the plans show it to be .020, some of the kits and factory built aircraft have it as .025. > >I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section between the panel side angles, firewall and instrument panel is removable via lots of #8 screws, and the section where the canopy rail goes is riveted in place. > >Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the .020 skin and the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4 ounces. > >SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the .025 material, especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance? > >Thanks, >Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ >N601GE (reserved) >601XL/TD, Corvair, building... > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:43 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL forward fuselage top thickness Hi Andy, I'd recommend you go with .025 and use 6-32 screws in U-clips that fit .025 to .040. See McMaster Carr 94809A102 Part Number: 94809A102 $13.53 per Pack of 50 Nut Type Speed Nuts Applications For Machine Screws Speed Nut Type J-Style Clip-On Nuts J-Style Clip-On Nuts Style Shape 2 Material Type Steel Finish Black Grade/Class Not Rated Steel Type Plain Steel System of Measurement Inch Inch Thread Size 6-32 For Panel Thickness .025"-.04" Center of Hole to Panel Edge .468" Thread Direction Right-Hand Thread Thread Type Standard Threads Specifications Met Not Rated These are a great fastener, they're easily replaced and make the removal and install painless. I have about 80 of these holding the forward top skin on my 601HDS. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/uclips.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/cnpyrailcover.gif Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Looking for experience & opinions - I have made a pattern and am ready > to cut the forward fuselage top skin (6C1-4). I find that the while > the plans show it to be .020, some of the kits and factory built > aircraft have it as .025. > > I do plan to modify the sheet as many have, so that the section > between the panel side angles, firewall and instrument panel is > removable via lots of #8 screws, and the section where the canopy rail > goes is riveted in place. > > Estimating the area as 4 sq.ft., the weight difference between the > .020 skin and the .025 skin would be ~103.5 gms, which is less than 4 > ounces. > > SO... Anyone have any comments about whether to use the .020 or the > .025 material, especially in terms of holding up in use and maintenance? > > Thanks, > Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ > N601GE (reserved) > 601XL/TD, Corvair, building... > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL forward fuselage top thickness From: "Tim Juhl" Here is a faster link to Jay's excellent drawing: http://www.ch601.org./resources/zodiac%20updates/access%20panel/InstrAccess2.pdf Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171953#171953 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701: Replace stab brackets? From: "ricklach" Hi Tony, I would defiantly recommend replacing 7H2-6 with the heavier .063 material. The .040 mounts on my 701 cracked out at 200 hours. There is another reason for the cracks other than the shaking from the 912 and thats misalignment. If the fuselage mounts 7F3-4 are not in perfect vertical alignment with 7H2-6 when they are bolted together 7H2-6 is preloaded and distorted. Normal flight vibration will create stress cracks in 7H2-6 because of the preloaded condition. Then add the 912 vibration of start up and shut down and youve compounded an already bad situation. If you decide to replace 7H2-6 spend some time making sure that the alignment with 7F3-4 is as perfect as you can get it. Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171961#171961 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Used engine sources From: "Gig Giacona" Also check out an issue of Trade-A-Plane. I'm sure the FBO at your airport has one so you don't have to subscribe. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171969#171969 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps From: "Mark Colbeck" Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if anyone has an answer (you guys usually do) Thanks -------- CH701 70% Complete www.mykitlog.com/mcolbeck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171974#171974 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:25 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps My experience is with the 601XL and I am not sure how things are set up on the 701. On the XL I have seen two styles of solution. In the first an arm is attached to the shaft that rotates to actuate the flaps. One end of the position sensor is tied to the fuselage while the other fastens to some point on the arm. Since the arm moves less than 1.2 inches at the tube (relative to the attachment point on the fuselage) and more than 1.2 inches at a point further out the arm you just find the point on the arm that moves just a bit under 1.2 inches. The pictures below are from Mike Sigman's 601XL. Ron Geese has a clever solution that doesn't involve adding a arm. The flap linear actuator is tied to a fixed pivot at one end and an arm on the rotating flap tube on the other. So, again, somewhere along the actuator is a point where the mechanism rises about 1.2 inches across the whole range of motion. Just connect the sensor at that point. I attached two photos that Ron sent me. -- Craig Mike's solution (three photos): cid:X.MA1.1144888721@aol.com cid:X.MA2.1144888721@aol.com cid:X.MA3.1144888721@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Colbeck Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if anyone has an answer (you guys usually do) Thanks -------- CH701 70% Complete www.mykitlog.com/mcolbeck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171974#171974 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:19 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps Mark, I, too, have a 601XL. I didn't use a Ray Allen flap position sensor. I use LOWF (pronounced "lowf"). Look Out Window at Flaps. ;-) Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:08 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD My left arm is weak because of an old shoulder injury so I found it difficult extending the flaps on my new 701. It took two hands, so whenever I used the flaps I had to let go the stick, and the plane would start to dive before I regained control. not good close to the ground! So I looked around for alternatives. I rejected electric flaps because I didn't want to increase the potential for failures (shorts, motor burn-outs, etc). Michael Heintz at Quality Sport Plane in Northern Ca. came to the rescue with the perfect solution, a flap handle with mechanical advantage. It is very easy to deploy the flaps using this device and even gives a few more degrees of flap if you need them (see two attached pictures). You can visit Quality Sport at http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_023.htm if you are interested in purchasing one. FYI, Michael and Quality Sport were very helpful during the construction of my 701, and Michael is an excellent 701 pilot. A back-country flying DVD, which was produced by Christopher Desmond, features flying by Michael (and Christopher). This DVD is really great! The photography and the STOL flying far exceed anything I have ever seen; Hollywood couldn't do better! Cameras were mounted on the wing, inside the cockpit, and looking up from the ground. Flights go into canyons, land on river banks, and fly from small gravel and grass strips. This video is truly spectacular. If you're interested, I recommend previewing the DVD on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbBb_IuT1_o or contact Christopher to order the full DVD at http://www.stol-adventures.com/. Regards, Les ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:46 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road. Ron ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:27 PM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL forward fuselage top thickness Use .025 I have zenith make every skin on my kits .025 and all control surfaces .020. It gives you a much better airframe. Jeff **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:10 PM PST US From: Jimmy Mathis Subject: Zenith-List: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit Hey guys: I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would like to trade for an equal value center console bay boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer. The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is still in the box except for rudder which will fit in box. Located in Texas. Jimmy Mathis jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net 409 385-7892 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:58 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot Actually I was told by an owner of an XL with *hinged* ailerons that his Trio Avionics servo slipped. But since he had a two axis system I don't know which servo was slipping. The installation of the altitude hold servo was a little unusual on this plane. It was mounted on the firewall (pictures attached). BTW: this was one of the two "twin" XLs built at Quality Sport Planes in California by Alan and Steve Smith. I can't recall if it was Alan or Steve who mentioned the slippage. But their two planes are essentially identical. http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_072.htm Others have said that in flight most of the stick force comes from the wind over ailerons and that the type of hinge was only a small factor. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Steele Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road. Ron ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD From: "kmccune" I like the idea, the stock system is pretty poor, what are the flap angles? Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172014#172014 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Used engine sources From: "kmccune" Don't know a whole lot about them, but they are inexpensive and the design at least is proven. I don't know about the latest quality control. http://www.franklinengines.com/4a.cfm -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172017#172017 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD From: "rroberts" Les, More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it and do they sell them? -------- Low & Slow Rick www.n701rr.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:38 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Used engine sources Hers's my two cents worth... When I was looking fo a 220 HP Franklin for my 801 I saw an ad for this dealer in Colorado. He advertised the 220 a t 16,000.00$ complete in several magazines. So I called him and was rea dy to drive down to pay him and pick up the new motor. Turns out the mot or needed mags, carb, exhaust system, tin, alternator, yada,yada,yada,,, ,, Then,, after he feeds me all this BS he says," the 16,000.00 price is if you go to Poland and pick it up. If you want one from my stock here in Colorado the cost will be 18,999.00. I have not looked back since. He probably was a used car salesman in a previous life. :<(...... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "kmccune" wrote: Don't know a whole lot about them, but they are inexpensive and the desi gn at least is proven. I don't know about the latest quality control. http://www.franklinengines.com/4a.cfm -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the t hings that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the b owlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your s ails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172017#172017 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click to receive information from occupational therapy schools near you. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/REAK6aBdfmdeO3DOoXGV8QJSI BKOddKm6KeUJ8DUw87lPIpnEVJ9Oq/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:13 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps I have considered a flap indicator problem for my 601. The solutions already mentioned would accommodate the R.A. Allen indicator. I'd like to suggest a cheaper, simpler indicator. Yesterday I visited Clayton, my EAA Tech Counselor at his hangar in Helena. He showed me the homemade flap indicator on his RV-6. The RV-6 flap appeared to rotate on an axle or hinges located at the center of the flap. He just painted suitable lines on the skin of his flap around the rotation axle so that the exposed line indicated the angle. Then glancing over his left shoulder, he could read the deflection angle directly by seeing which lines were exposed. 'Sorry, I didn't get any pictures. Obviously, this only works in daylight. That concept won't work with the 601 because the flap is hinged at the bottom, instead of rotating on a central pivot. So, I've been thinking about suitable visual indicators for the 601. So far what I've come up with is shown, sort of, in the attached sketch. The idea is to rivet a short piece of L-angle to the forward skin of the flange, maybe 3/4" below the top, with the web vertical. Then put a #8 screw through the web of the angle to produce a pivot for a piece of ~10 or 12 AWG aluminum wire that would extend into the wing through an ~1/8" hole in the rear spar. Paint the wire black and then paint on white rings for 10, 20, and 30=B0 (or whatever) flap positions. A quick glance would confirm the flap position. I'd place it just outside rear rib #4, so it wouldn't get stepped on during entry. Has anyone implemented a similar indicator? If so, how has it worked? Comments? Terry At 09:59 AM 3/23/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen >position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" >travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the >actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if >anyone has an answer (you guys usually do) >Thanks Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:24 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD Rick, My understanding is that Michael has a machinist make up a batch when he gets a few orders. I think the price for the control was about $300+. Suggest you contact Quality Sport to find out about availability and exact price. It took me about 1/2 a day to do the installation. I used the same rivet holes that the old flap handle sat on. You have to cut the flap handle off and insert a cylindrical fitting, that comes with the unit, into the remaining flap control tube. This fitting has an adjustable threaded end that attaches to the new control arm. It takes almost no effort to extend or raise the flaps and its easy to see just where your flaps are set (each detent is about 5-degrees of flap). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rroberts > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:52 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD > > > Les, > More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it > and do they sell them? > > -------- > Low & Slow > Rick > www.n701rr.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020 > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:25 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD Kevin, The flap angles are approximately 5, 10, 15, and 20-degrees. I have been told to use care extending to 20-degrees because Zenith once provided about 25-degrees of flap and some people "got in trouble" using it. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kmccune > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:13 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD > > > I like the idea, the stock system is pretty poor, what are > the flap angles? > > Kevin > > -------- > Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more > disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the > ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from > the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. > Explore. Dream. Discover. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172014#172014 > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:27 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD Details and more photos here: http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_084.htm The name "Kube Kontrol" apparently comes from the designed/machinist: Robert Kube -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD Rick, My understanding is that Michael has a machinist make up a batch when he gets a few orders. I think the price for the control was about $300+. Suggest you contact Quality Sport to find out about availability and exact price. It took me about 1/2 a day to do the installation. I used the same rivet holes that the old flap handle sat on. You have to cut the flap handle off and insert a cylindrical fitting, that comes with the unit, into the remaining flap control tube. This fitting has an adjustable threaded end that attaches to the new control arm. It takes almost no effort to extend or raise the flaps and its easy to see just where your flaps are set (each detent is about 5-degrees of flap). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rroberts > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:52 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD > > > Les, > More info please on the flap control. How expensive is it > and do they sell them? > > -------- > Low & Slow > Rick > www.n701rr.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172020#172020 > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:16 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the hingeless ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to have no problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A group of us flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar day a few of years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip. On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote: > > At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to > remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the > hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the > clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a > 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to > modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road. > > Ron -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD From: "rroberts" Maybe with this handle I won't go inverted again when flaps come in! [Wink] Thanks all, will order mine tomorrow. -------- Low & Slow Rick www.n701rr.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172051#172051 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:06 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot Great, this is just the kind of info I was hoping would show up. Hingeless it is! Ron On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Bryan Martin wrote: > > > One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the > hingeless ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to > have no problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A > group of us flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar > day a few of years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip. > > > On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote: > >> >> At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem >> to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with >> the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them >> caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with >> autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really >> not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems >> down the road. >> >> Ron > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Flap control solution and flying DVD From: "kmccune" Thanks and don't worry, I'm interested in the increments, not a speed brake. Kevin [quote="lgold(at)quantum-associat"]Kevin, The flap angles are approximately 5, 10, 15, and 20-degrees. I have been told to use care extending to 20-degrees because Zenith once provided about 25-degrees of flap and some people "got in trouble" using it. Les > -- : -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172063#172063 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit From: "ashontz" Huh, you want a boat/engine/trailer combo in excahnge for $350 worth of rudder? tallow_98(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Hey guys: > > I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for > trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would > like to trade for an equal value center console bay > boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer. > The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit > is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price > on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is > still in the box except for rudder which will fit in > box. Located in Texas. > > Jimmy Mathis > jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net > 409 385-7892 -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172067#172067 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Ray Allen Position Sensor for Flaps From: "ashontz" Go down to Boater's World and pickup an trim sender for about $35. Mark Colbeck wrote: > Does anyone have or have you seen a working set up for using a Ray Allen position sensor for flap position. My issue is 1.2" travel on sensor 2" travel on actuator. This is assuming the sensor is going next to the actuator. I though I could save some time in trial and error an see if anyone has an answer (you guys usually do) > Thanks -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172068#172068 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou From: "ashontz" Dave isn't building a 601XL anymore????!!!! dan(at)hillsgun.com wrote: > Hi Glenn: I don't have the answer for your bending questions, but Dave is no > longer building a Zenith. Quite some time ago he sold his project and is now > working on scratchbuilding a Sonex. Dan. > > -- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172069#172069 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou From: "ashontz" Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it didn't budge in the clamp. http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154 Jugle wrote: > Hi Scratchbuilders, > > I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you solved it. > > I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it has been working fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with some 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping under the top plate and the effort required has begun pulling the rivets on the piano hinge. > > Do I: > 1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop? > 2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer? > 3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely results in a lot of waste? > > How did you do it? > > Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does anyone know if he's still building? > > Thanks in advance, > Glenn. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172072#172072 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:56 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit I think he said he has the kit. Gary Boothe Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ashontz Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: trade 601xl fuselage and tail kit Huh, you want a boat/engine/trailer combo in excahnge for $350 worth of rudder? tallow_98(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Hey guys: > > I have a 601XL fuselage kit and tail kit + plans for > trade. I have decided to build a high wing and would > like to trade for an equal value center console bay > boat, motor, and trailer of 18 foot or longer. > The rudder is built already but nothing more. The kit > is as comes from Zenith. Equal value is as the price > on the website. Can work out delivery as the kit is > still in the box except for rudder which will fit in > box. Located in Texas. > > Jimmy Mathis > jimmy.mathis@sbcglobal.net > 409 385-7892 -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172067#172067 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou From: "Jugle" That's a fine brake Andy, unfortunately space dictated what I could use, so Dave's brake on the bench edge is great. ashontz wrote: > Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it didn't budge in the clamp. > > http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154 > > Probably the reason it's clamping well is because there's only two clmap points, front and back, instead of the entire flat surface of the fat edge of an L. -------- Glenn Andressen 601XL- just started. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172073#172073 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou From: "ashontz" Dude, what happened??? You were one of my "Damn the torpedos!" motivators. Private e-mail me. TxDave wrote: > In order to make nice straight bends in thicker stock such as .040 you must have a good quality hinge. I used the stainless ones from Air Parts, Inc. > > For your longerons you should make both flanges about 100mm then trim after bending. This is a minimal waste of material and is certainly cheaper than farming out the work. > > I have bent every control surface skin, and every piece of channel (including rear spars) using a little creative thinking. For larger pieces, like control surface skins, I always do a test bend with a 2" wide strip of aluminum. > > My current version of the brake is 10 feet long. I have 6 bolts. I can bend pretty much anything I need to bend with it. > > Yes, I'm still here. I'm building a Sonex (long story). I'm also still a big fan of the 601XL. > > > Dave Clay -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172074#172074 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? From: "ashontz" I agree. Great engine, it's just needs some help becoming a true aircraft engine. Not much hlep, but some help. I' ve got 3 of them now ready to be rebuilt and just looking at them, you can see the aircraft engine in them. But they do need a little help getting there. Ron Lendon wrote: > The corvair engine really wasn't designed for spinning a propeller. Having the 5th bearing will take some of the precession loads out of the crank and transfer them to the engine case. > > If you fly the engine gently you will probably never have any problems with crank breakage. I am having the www.roysgarage.com made for my plane just for more peace of mind. > > Today I dropped the case and crank off to Roy and showed him a full size blue print of the 1958 machining drawings of the engine. He did take some notes. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172077#172077 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? From: "ashontz" By the way, how far apart do you two live? Geoff Heap and I are about 3 miles from each other. I'll tell you what, having other builders, that you actually like no less (I invited him to my wedding, we get together at least twice a month if not more), is friggin' priceless. Ron Lendon wrote: > The corvair engine really wasn't designed for spinning a propeller. Having the 5th bearing will take some of the precession loads out of the crank and transfer them to the engine case. > > If you fly the engine gently you will probably never have any problems with crank breakage. I am having the www.roysgarage.com made for my plane just for more peace of mind. > > Today I dropped the case and crank off to Roy and showed him a full size blue print of the 1958 machining drawings of the engine. He did take some notes. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172080#172080 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:32 PM PST US From: Art Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Bending 40 thou Andy, Nice....Is see a business opportunity, when are you going into production? Art 701 Scratchin' --- ashontz wrote: > > Check out my 8' brake. I've bent 6' .040 on it. Extra clamps involved, but it didn't budge in > the clamp. > > http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=ashontz&project=277&category=0&log=27195&row=154 > > > Jugle wrote: > > Hi Scratchbuilders, > > > > I've found a bit of info searching here but I'd like to know how some of you solved it. > > > > I built Dave Clay's bending brake as per the plans at www.ch601.org and it has been working > fine for thinner material, but today I experimented with some 0.040 flanges. They keep slipping > under the top plate and the effort required has begun pulling the rivets on the piano hinge. > > > > Do I: > > 1. Farm those bits out to a sheetmetal shop? > > 2. Add more bolts between the existing ones to hold it firmer? > > 3. Bend the material while its wider then cut down later... this surely results in a lot of > waste? > > > > How did you do it? > > > > Incidentally, Dave's www.daves601xl.com hasn't been live for a while. Does anyone know if he's > still building? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Glenn. > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172072#172072 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Used engine sources From: "kmccune" Just going by the website, like I said don't know much about them, one way or the other. -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172082#172082 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? From: "kmccune" I agree with ashontz, but I'm building a 701 and the corvair is already a little bit heavy for it. I'm not so concerned about the W&B but more about payload and range. I'm betting performance wise... its kick a$$ though. If I were building a 601 I'd have a corvair, continental or maybe an older franklin (don't know anything about the new ones) -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172092#172092 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 5th Bearing - What is the Purpose? From: "Ron Lendon" Andy, Roy and I are about 3 hours apart by car. I made the trip out to see what he was doing because it looked important, it was. Yesterday we met where we were both crossing paths about half way to transfer the case and crank and oil pump. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172097#172097 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Firewall spring back From: "lwinger" Fellow scratch builders, I'm making the form blocks for my 601XL firewall. Any words of advice on how to taper the top (14 degrees open), sides (3 degrees open) and bottom (10 degree closed)? Also, any special tips of forming the .018" galvanized steel? Thanks. -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair from scratch Control surfaces and wings complete. Bottom rear fuselage done www.mykitlog.com/lwinger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172100#172100 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:59 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CNC drilled pilot holes The CNC holes are pilot holes so they have to be deburred only when they are opened up to the correct size. The time saved is considerable as one does not have to lay out the holes initially. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:10:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sundaypilot@cybermesa.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "sundaypilot" Hi all! I am new to this list so this may be a dumb question that has already been answered many times: I saw a comment on the ZODIAC web site (under pricing) that says: NEW FOR 2007: The standard kit now includes many precision CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled skins and components. I am wondering if anybody has an idea or feeling as to how much time this will save? Do CNC pre-drilled holes still have to be deburred? Any comment welcome. I will start my project with a rudder -workshop in Cloverdale/CA in May. Thanks, Sundaypilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171868#171868 **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes From: "sundaypilot" Thanks everybody for your replies! There seems to be a lot of collective Zodiac knowledge/experience gathered here. I will come back every day now to see what's new. And I haven't even started building yet ... Thanks again everybody! Thomas (Tom) Spickermann Hernandez, New Mexico sundaypilot@cybermesa.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172118#172118 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:46 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: jRe: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot I have been flying a Trio EZ-Pilot II on my XL with hinge-less ailerons for 360 hrs. No problems. One of the best things I installed, in my opinion. Tony Graziano N493TG --------------------------------------------------------------- Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot From: Ronald Steele (rsteele@rjsit.com) Date: Sun Mar 23 - 12:34 PM At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road. Ron ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:42 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but be VERY concerned !!! Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written below, but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA from a call I had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be cautious of crossing the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I have been told that one plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a respected source. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com Should New Aircraft Owners 'Avoid Florida?' Welcome To The Sunshine State... NOT It appears Florida's tax personnel are targeting new airplane owners in ways that do not exactly make them feel welcome to the state. Over the course of the last few weeks, ANN has learned of a number of issues that have arisen when owners of new aircraft, generally within the first six months of the sale, have been targeted for "use tax" by agents of the state's Department of Revenue... despite the fact that the targeted aircraft were not owned or operated by state residents. It starts like this... you buy a new or used aircraft and sign the bill of sale... which starts "the clock." It is Florida's position that for the next six months (possibly thereafter, though the burden of proof reportedly changes at that point), the state has the right to exact the requisite "Use Tax" (Sales Tax) for the fact you partook of the state's services unless you can show an equivalent Use or Sales Tax receipt from another state... In other words, for those of you who may have bought a $500K Cessna, Cirrus, Columbia, etc... unless you can prove that you paid the equivalent use tax in another state, you owe the state of Florida some $30K if you visited the state in the first six months of your ownership. Mind you, if your sales/use tax bill comes from a state that exacts LESS tax than Florida, the FL Department of Revenue still expects you to pony up the difference... and if you're from a state that exacts a minimum fee (like the few hundred dollars for owners in South Carolina), they will bill you for the WHOLE difference... and its up to you to fight them on it. No kidding. It makes NO difference to the state if you have any property in Florida, or whether you bought the airplane there, or if you have ANY business interests whatsoever in the state... If Florida catches you here and if they can find a way to stick you with a tax bill, they will. According to the Florida Tax Code, "There shall be a presumption that any aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle purchased in another state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia but titled, registered, or licensed in this state is taxable except as otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule. This presumption may be rebutted only by documentary evidence that the person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle purchased the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle in another state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia six (6) months or more prior to the time it is brought into this state. In order for such property to be presumed exempt as purchased for use outside Florida, the person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle must provide documentary proof that such property was used in other states, territories of the United States, or the District of Columbia for six months or longer under conditions which would lawfully give rise to the taxing jurisdiction of another state, territory, or District of Columbia and any lawfully imposed tax was paid to such state, territory, or District of Columbia before being imported into this state. However, the rental or lease of any aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle which is used or stored in this state is taxable without regard to its prior use or tax paid on the purchase outside this state." Why? Because they can. The very liberal Florida tax code allows them to tax aircraft if they operate at any time during the first six months of a purchase in the state... and according to some interpretations, there may be some legal justification for Florida to tax you if you so much as fly OVER the state. This problem has been known for a while but recent ramp checks by FL DOR personnel have apparently stepped up, and snagged at least one Cirrus owner and a Meridian owner who came back to Florida to undertake flight training in his new airplane. The Cirrus owner is on the hook for some $30K in additional taxes... the Meridian owner -- well over $100K. Welcome to Florida, folks, please remove the knife from your back as you cross back over the state lines... A spokesperson for the FL DOR, Rene Watters, is unapologetic for the issue, telling ANN that they are simply doing their jobs and that if anyone has a problem with that, to "take it up with the legislature." This matter, of course, can be appealed through the courts... but this route necessitates expensive and time consuming litigation, via the use of a trained tax attorney... and you may still lose, after all. Catch 22. Other DOR staffers opine that aircraft owners have it particularly hard, since they admit that RVs and boats get a somewhat more permissive treatment from them, "...Probably due to better lobbying on the part of their industry reps." Regardless; it's spooking a number of aircraft owners... we spoke with an avionics shop in Northern Florida that lost some business due to the concern expressed by an aircraft owner over bringing his airplane into the state shortly after he bought it, and Piper is reportedly NOT pleased about the Meridian tax bill noted above... especially at a time when the state is trying to con (uh, convince) Piper to locate the PiperJet facility within the state. We have a feeling that Piper CEO Jim Bass may have a few things to say, as a result of these recent events, since anyone taking delivery at a Florida Piper plant may find themselves with a tax bill, even if they leave the state right away and never darken the state's borders again. In the meantime, the recent escalation in DOR ramp inspections is getting aggressive attention from the aviation business community -- and we expect to get some feedback on the matter shortly... we'll update you as to what occurs. Portions Copyright C 1999-2008 by Aero-News Network, Inc. All rights reserved. For more info please visit http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:12 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:15:04PM -0500, ZodieRocket wrote: > True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but > be VERY concerned !!! > > Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written > below, but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA > from a call I had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be > cautious of crossing the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I > have been told that one plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a > respected source. Those of you who know the history of the Aero News Network may be tempted to write it off as ranting intended to get in the way of Sun n Fun. Don't. AOPA is also reporting the issue, and I heard it first from AOPA president Phil Boyer at a town meeting. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:48 PM PST US From: "Larry Winger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall spring back A quick follow up to my questions. I do have quite a bit of experience in making form blocks for my rudder, horizontal stab, flaps, ailerons and wing ribs. I'm really asking about the uniqueness of this part's material (galvanized steel) and the open flanges (3 and 14 degrees). Thanks again. On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:36 PM, lwinger wrote: > > Fellow scratch builders, > > I'm making the form blocks for my 601XL firewall. Any words of advice on > how to taper the top (14 degrees open), sides (3 degrees open) and bottom > (10 degree closed)? > > Also, any special tips of forming the .018" galvanized steel? > > Thanks. > > -------- > Larry Winger > Tustin, CA > 601XL/Corvair from scratch > Control surfaces and wings complete. > Bottom rear fuselage done > www.mykitlog.com/lwinger > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172100#172100 > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:51 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane I can't say if this is true about Florida. But Maine has been mentioned a lot in the aviation press recently for similar reasons: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/12/30/plane_owners_stunned_by _out_of_state_taxes/ http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070608me.html -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ZodieRocket Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:15 PM Subject: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane True or Not I cannot confirm as I do not have first hand knowledge, but be VERY concerned !!! Folks I do not know much about this issue other then what is written below, but be advised this will also carry to your homebuilt and LSA from a call I had heard. SO if your aircraft is less then 1 yr old be cautious of crossing the Florida state line. This may be a hoax, but I have been told that one plane has been confirmed in owing payment from a respected source. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com Should New Aircraft Owners 'Avoid Florida?' Welcome To The Sunshine State... NOT It appears Florida's tax personnel are targeting new airplane owners in ways that do not exactly make them feel welcome to the state. Over the course of the last few weeks, ANN has learned of a number of issues that have arisen when owners of new aircraft, generally within the first six months of the sale, have been targeted for "use tax" by agents of the state's Department of Revenue... despite the fact that the targeted aircraft were not owned or operated by state residents. It starts like this... you buy a new or used aircraft and sign the bill of sale... which starts "the clock." It is Florida's position that for the next six months (possibly thereafter, though the burden of proof reportedly changes at that point), the state has the right to exact the requisite "Use Tax" (Sales Tax) for the fact you partook of the state's services unless you can show an equivalent Use or Sales Tax receipt from another state... In other words, for those of you who may have bought a $500K Cessna, Cirrus, Columbia, etc... unless you can prove that you paid the equivalent use tax in another state, you owe the state of Florida some $30K if you visited the state in the first six months of your ownership. Mind you, if your sales/use tax bill comes from a state that exacts LESS tax than Florida, the FL Department of Revenue still expects you to pony up the difference... and if you're from a state that exacts a minimum fee (like the few hundred dollars for owners in South Carolina), they will bill you for the WHOLE difference... and its up to you to fight them on it. No kidding. It makes NO difference to the state if you have any property in Florida, or whether you bought the airplane there, or if you have ANY business interests whatsoever in the state... If Florida catches you here and if they can find a way to stick you with a tax bill, they will. According to the Florida Tax Code, "There shall be a presumption that any aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle purchased in another state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia but titled, registered, or licensed in this state is taxable except as otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule. This presumption may be rebutted only by documentary evidence that the person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle purchased the aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle in another state, territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia six (6) months or more prior to the time it is brought into this state. In order for such property to be presumed exempt as purchased for use outside Florida, the person owning the aircraft, boat, mobile home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle must provide documentary proof that such property was used in other states, territories of the United States, or the District of Columbia for six months or longer under conditions which would lawfully give rise to the taxing jurisdiction of another state, territory, or District of Columbia and any lawfully imposed tax was paid to such state, territory, or District of Columbia before being imported into this state. However, the rental or lease of any aircraft, boat, mobile home, or motor vehicle which is used or stored in this state is taxable without regard to its prior use or tax paid on the purchase outside this state." Why? Because they can. The very liberal Florida tax code allows them to tax aircraft if they operate at any time during the first six months of a purchase in the state... and according to some interpretations, there may be some legal justification for Florida to tax you if you so much as fly OVER the state. This problem has been known for a while but recent ramp checks by FL DOR personnel have apparently stepped up, and snagged at least one Cirrus owner and a Meridian owner who came back to Florida to undertake flight training in his new airplane. The Cirrus owner is on the hook for some $30K in additional taxes... the Meridian owner -- well over $100K. Welcome to Florida, folks, please remove the knife from your back as you cross back over the state lines... A spokesperson for the FL DOR, Rene Watters, is unapologetic for the issue, telling ANN that they are simply doing their jobs and that if anyone has a problem with that, to "take it up with the legislature." This matter, of course, can be appealed through the courts... but this route necessitates expensive and time consuming litigation, via the use of a trained tax attorney... and you may still lose, after all. Catch 22. Other DOR staffers opine that aircraft owners have it particularly hard, since they admit that RVs and boats get a somewhat more permissive treatment from them, "...Probably due to better lobbying on the part of their industry reps." Regardless; it's spooking a number of aircraft owners... we spoke with an avionics shop in Northern Florida that lost some business due to the concern expressed by an aircraft owner over bringing his airplane into the state shortly after he bought it, and Piper is reportedly NOT pleased about the Meridian tax bill noted above... especially at a time when the state is trying to con (uh, convince) Piper to locate the PiperJet facility within the state. We have a feeling that Piper CEO Jim Bass may have a few things to say, as a result of these recent events, since anyone taking delivery at a Florida Piper plant may find themselves with a tax bill, even if they leave the state right away and never darken the state's borders again. In the meantime, the recent escalation in DOR ramp inspections is getting aggressive attention from the aviation business community -- and we expect to get some feedback on the matter shortly... we'll update you as to what occurs. Portions Copyright C 1999-2008 by Aero-News Network, Inc. All rights reserved. For more info please visit http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:05 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NOTAM : FLORIDA in a New Plane Google found this on EAA's site but it has since disappeared. I wonder if it was retracted: Sun 'n Fun Calls Reports of Florida Use Tax Inaccurate March 21, 2008 - Recent reports of "use taxes" being levied on airplanes owned by non-resident visitors to Florida are not accurate, according to officials at Sun 'n Fun Fly-In at Lakeland, Florida, whose annual aviation season kick-off takes place the week of April 8-13. Sun 'n Fun has fielded numerous calls from concerned pilots and exhibitors worried about the report and is looking to alleviate those concerns. "I've talked with the General Counsel of the Florida Department of Revenue and he assured me that, number 1, there will not be state tax agents doing ramp checks, and that out-of-state pilots have nothing to fear," said John Burton, Sun 'n Fun president. The Florida DoR informed Burton that the tax affects only those owners who have purchased their airplane in another state (outside Florida) within the past six months, but who have the aircraft titled and registered in Florida and have not paid Florida sales tax on that airplane. Sun 'n Fun received correspondence from Florida Department of Revenue Executive Director Lisa Echeverri dated March 19, 2008, that includes the statement: "Florida does not assess a use tax on non-resident aircraft owners in every circumstance where an aircraft is brought to Florida within the first six months." "It does not impact Sun 'n Fun exhibitors and aircraft dealers; it does not impact aircraft owners who have owned their aircraft for more than six months," Burton said. "The idea of having somebody who has purchased an airplane out of state and is not a resident of FL, getting charged a use tax here is absolutely ludicrous. "It's a classic case of much ado about nothing." Pat Phillips, a member of the EAA Legal Advisory Council as well as Sun 'n Fun air show chairman and a fly-in director, is familiar with the situation. "If somebody goes out of state and buys an airplane in a state that charges no sales tax and brings it to Florida, and the airplane is based in Florida, the buyer lives in Florida, and is using the airplane in Florida, yes, he would owe a 6 percent use tax," he said. "Now, if a transient aircraft comes into Florida from a state where they have not paid sales tax on the aircraft or are just visiting here, they would have no obligation to pay a use tax in the state of Florida just for using their airplane while visiting in the state," he said. "And I believe constitutionally that would be in conflict with the commerce laws of the U.S." Phillips added, "If a person, willingly or innocently, avoids sales tax by buying out of state but bases his aircraft in Florida and lives in the state, then the use tax obligation may apply. But for a person who simply flies down to Florida but lives in another state, he will not be assessed a tax. It's preposterous to even think the state would impose a sales tax." When EAA's Government Affairs department learned about the Florida use tax story, it responded immediately by contacting its Legal Advisory Council, which worked with Sun 'n Fun management to get official clarification from the Florida Department of Revenue. "This is a good example of how our staff, working with the council, was able to get to the bottom of this story and help clarify this situation," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulatory affairs. "Hopefully this will put to rest the concerns of non-Florida residents who intend to fly into the state for Sun 'n Fun, or any time, for that matter." -- Craig ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:52 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes Tom Glad to hear that there is going to be a 601 down in NNM. I retired out of LANL in 2004 and moved to MT in 2005. I feel so lucky to have missed the turmoil of the past few years. In fact, I got out just before Nanos' shutdown. That was a great summer to be out of the lab. Do you plan to fly out of Espanola or LAM? I've been to the Espanola airport, but only for some RC stuff. I do hope to fly to LAM after I finish my 601. Good luck with yours. Terry ESA-EPE, retired At 08:53 PM 3/23/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks everybody for your replies! > >There seems to be a lot of collective Zodiac knowledge/experience gathered >here. I will come back every day now to see what's new. >And I haven't even started building yet ... > >Thanks again everybody! > >Thomas (Tom) Spickermann >Hernandez, New Mexico >sundaypilot@cybermesa.com Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:31 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CNC drilled pilot holes Whoops! 'Sorry, I had intended my previous note to be off the list. Terry do not archive! At 11:25 PM 3/23/2008 -0600, you wrote: >Tom Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.