Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (James E. Lanier)
2. 04:38 AM - Sun-N-Fun (ZodieRocket)
3. 04:54 AM - Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 (ZodieRocket)
4. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (Bruce Johnson)
5. 06:34 AM - Fuel tanks (John Short)
6. 06:41 AM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Tommy Walker)
7. 07:09 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (leinad)
8. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 07:59 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (LarryMcFarland)
10. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (steve)
11. 09:32 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (John Short)
12. 09:39 AM - Re: Moving rudder pedals forward (Grant Corriveau)
13. 09:50 AM - Canopy issues and VGs (Grant Corriveau)
14. 09:52 AM - Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Andrewlieser)
15. 09:56 AM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Robert Hansen)
16. 09:57 AM - Re: Moving rudder pedals forward (lwinger)
17. 10:09 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Jay Maynard)
18. 10:35 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (kmccune)
19. 11:08 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Craig Payne)
20. 11:13 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Dave Austin)
21. 11:27 AM - 701 (Micael W Wegner)
22. 11:55 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin)
23. 11:55 AM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (LarryMcFarland)
24. 12:07 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin)
25. 12:15 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Terry Phillips)
26. 12:21 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Sabrina)
27. 01:27 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Tim Juhl)
28. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin)
29. 02:57 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Ron Lendon)
30. 03:08 PM - Tented or not? (LHusky@aol.com)
31. 03:11 PM - To whom it may concern (Roy Szarafinski)
32. 03:21 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (george may)
33. 03:23 PM - Re: To whom it may concern (Craig Payne)
34. 03:26 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Tim Juhl)
35. 03:36 PM - Re: Tented or not? (LarryMcFarland)
36. 03:46 PM - Re: Tented or not? (Leo Gates)
37. 03:52 PM - Re: Tented or not? (Bryan Martin)
38. 04:14 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin)
39. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (John Bolding)
40. 04:24 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (James E. Lanier)
41. 04:59 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (george may)
42. 06:18 PM - ZENITH 701 FOR SALE (Michael Gross)
43. 06:21 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Terry Turnquist)
44. 06:47 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Ronald Steele)
45. 07:48 PM - XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (PatrickW)
46. 08:07 PM - Crank Update (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
47. 08:15 PM - Re: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE (Micael W Wegner)
48. 08:19 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Andrewlieser)
49. 08:23 PM - Re: To whom it may concern (ZodieRocket)
50. 09:25 PM - Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (sonar1@cox.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION |
OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot regs?
Do you have a link?
(do not archive)
Jim
Jay Maynard wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 08:11:31PM -0400, James E. Lanier wrote:
>
>> http://www.zenithair.com/misc/turbine-power.html
>> "No sports pilots can fly it. Jerry"
>> Question: If a sport pilot can't fly it...who can? I guess I don't know
>> my regulations very well.
>>
>
> A private pilot or above.
>
Message 2
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HI Folks, I would like to here from all Florida residents that live in
Florida that are attending the Thursday evening Sun-N-Fun BBQ.
Could you please reply to bbq@can-zacaviation.com with your name and
phone #
Thanks
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 |
Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08
Time is drawing near, please sign up now! I need to print the name tags
Tomorrow and order the food for the event. Also, due to unforeseen
problems I find myself in need of volunteers, if your have a chance to
help out with the event please send me an
E-Mail at bbq@can-zacaviation.com
This event is not an official Zenith function, it is by builders for
builders. With over 200 people the last two BBQ's it is the biggest
gathering of builders and owners. I am in need of help this year in
order to keep the BBQ going smoothly.
Thursday April 10th 2008
5pm - 8pm in the Campground
Jim Hoak's Campsite, same spot as last year.
Jabiru USA <http://www.usjabiru.com/> , Flightcrafters
<http://www.zenithdistributing.com/> , AirFox , Sensornetics
<http://www.sensornetics.com/> and William Wynne
<http://www.flycorvair.com/> have all offered sponsorship for this
years event. Cummins Spinners <http://www.cumminsspinners.com/> and
Homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> have donated prizes
for this years draw. Zenith Aircraft and Can-Zac Aviation have also
donated for a special gift to the first 90 builders that arrive at the
Sun-N-Fun BBQ pre-registered for the event. Don't miss out on this
special gift pre-register NOW.
Welcome to the 2008 BBQ sign up, Please take a moment to visit
http://www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org/> or http://www.ch701.com
<http://www.ch701.com/> for the sign up sheet. This will be for your
name tag and will be your ticket for the cooks to provide you with a
great dinner. Plus this event is getting very large and I need an idea
on how much food to buy so that we feed everyone and don't run out! Lets
make it bigger this year, I have more give a ways, the first 90 people
with a pre-registered name badge will receive a gift. Limit one per
family please.
Thanks cdngoose
Sun-N-Fun BBQ 07 Bill Bodin won the Raffle for the Made to order Cummins
Spinner. This prize is custom made just for you! You tell us what prop
and engine you will be using and the Spinner will be made to order and
arrive at your door!
Don't Miss Sun-N-Fun 2008 BBQ
Thursday April 10th 2008
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION |
www.sportpilot.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James E.
Lanier
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION
<jim.lanier@charter.net>
OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot regs?
Do you have a link?
(do not archive)
Jim
Jay Maynard wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 08:11:31PM -0400, James E. Lanier wrote:
>
>> http://www.zenithair.com/misc/turbine-power.html
>> "No sports pilots can fly it. Jerry"
>> Question: If a sport pilot can't fly it...who can? I guess I don't know
>> my regulations very well.
>>
>
> A private pilot or above.
>
Checked by AVG.
AM
Checked by AVG.
AM
Message 5
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Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called
for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the
beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the
older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity?
CREATIVE SIGNWORKS
1168 Byron Rd.
Kaufman, Tx 75142
John & Mindy Short
972-962-7464
Cell: 214-240-3815
www.creative-sign-works.com
creativesigns@embarqmail.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? |
I am a little (no, maybe a lot) slow.
Shouldn't the acceptance of apology me made on the Yahoo forum?
I thought that's where the transgression and apology were made. Otherwise,
the transgressor will not know.
But then, like I said..
:-)
Regards,
Do Not Archive
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701 - 40.5 Hrs.
Message 7
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John,
I think those beads are to add some rigidity to spread the loads along the seam,
otherwise the loads would get concentrated at the center. Instead of purchasing
a fancy set of beading rollers I made wooden form blocks and squeezed the
beeds into the metal. See the link below.
By the way I haven't finished my tanks yet, but the beeding blocks worked well.
Dan Dempsey
http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/zodiac/fuel/beedblocks.htm
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173648#173648
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION |
At 12:10 AM 3/30/2008, you wrote:
>OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I
>find the sport pilot regs? Do you have a link?
Hi Jim,
In this case, the important part of the FARs is
not about the sport pilot certificate, but the
definition of a Light-Sport airplane. Here is a
pasted copy of the relevant portion of FAR 1.1 Definitions:
___________
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other
than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its
original certification, has continued to meet the following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than=AD
(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not
intended for operation on water; or
(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft
intended for operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with
maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than
120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not
more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady
flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing
devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at
the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff
weight and most critical center of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than
two persons, including the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a
powered aircraft other than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering,
two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft
intended for operation on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a
hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
___________
For this engine discussion, I believe a rotary
engine can be lumped into the class of
reciprocating engines (item 6 above) but any turbine engine would not fit.
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 9
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Hi John,
Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is
inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the
sides. This is what puts a focus on
bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange
inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving
3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be
easier to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting
indent reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming
and flexure.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
John Short wrote:
> Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called
> for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the
> beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the
> older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity?
>
>
>
> CREATIVE SIGNWORKS
> 1168 Byron Rd.
> Kaufman, Tx 75142
> John & Mindy Short
> 972-962-7464
> Cell: 214-240-3815
> www.creative-sign-works.com <http://www.creative-sign-works.com>
> creativesigns@embarqmail.com <mailto:creativesigns@embarqmail.com>
> *
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION |
Please go to the EAA website and get the straight scoop. The EAA has
been in driving force behind the LSA since conception..
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION
At 12:10 AM 3/30/2008, you wrote:
OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot
regs? Do you have a link?
Hi Jim,
In this case, the important part of the FARs is not about the sport
pilot certificate, but the definition of a Light-Sport airplane. Here
is a pasted copy of the relevant portion of FAR 1.1 Definitions:
___________
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to
meet the following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than=AD
(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for
operation on water; or
(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for
operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power
(VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric
conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS
for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without
the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at
the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical
center of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including
the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other
than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a
gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation
on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft
intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
___________
For this engine discussion, I believe a rotary engine can be lumped
into the class of reciprocating engines (item 6 above) but any turbine
engine would not fit.
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 11
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Thanks for clearing that up, and all the good ideas. This list is the
greatest, just goes to show you don't have to know everything (or much at
all) to build a plane. All you have to do is ask and somebody out there will
know the answer.
Thanks guys
John (Scratch building 701)
Kaufman, Tx
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks
>
> Hi John,
> Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is
> inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the sides.
> This is what puts a focus on
> bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange
> inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving
> 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be easier
> to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting indent
> reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming
> and flexure.
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> John Short wrote:
>> Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called
>> for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the
>> beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the
>> older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity?
>>
>> CREATIVE SIGNWORKS
>> 1168 Byron Rd.
>> Kaufman, Tx 75142
>> John & Mindy Short
>> 972-962-7464
>> Cell: 214-240-3815
>> www.creative-sign-works.com <http://www.creative-sign-works.com>
>> creativesigns@embarqmail.com <mailto:creativesigns@embarqmail.com>
>> *
>> *
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Moving rudder pedals forward |
I built the HDS with the longer cabin mod., moved my rudder pedals as
far forward as possible (while maintaining differential braking), and
set the seat pan as low as it would go yet clear the fuselage bottom.
I also modified my brake cylinder installations to base them on the
floor rather than on the rudder pedal arms as they originally were.
The beauty of that system is it not only removes un-needed stress on
the rudder pedal tubes, but it creates a better brake pedal
geometry. When a foot is at full rudder (forward position), the top
of the brake pedal rotates to a more vertical position, making
differential braking easier to add, and taking less pedal movement
towards the firewall.
I didn't move the heel support and haven't noticed a problem with my
size 12s ;-) ... your situation may vary .... Many HD/HDS builders
have added some strengthening along the baggage shelf edge because
that is a common place that was getting damaged from inadvertant
loads being placed there .. (i.e. it's a natural place to grab while
getting in and out...)
For XL builders I think all these mods are incorporated into that
aircraft...?
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF 601HDS
CAM100
Message 13
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| Subject: | Canopy issues and VGs |
> I had always toyed with the idea of an ejector canopy & emergency
> chute or whole
> aircraft chute.
The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding the
canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I don't
know of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all
remained flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was
enroute to Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with
visor, and finished the trip in the "open cockpit."
With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario
where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem
in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens
a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream.
My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude
changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract
the pilot.
My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of
"Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10
knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright vs.
going over onto it's back.
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF HDS
CAM100
Message 14
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| Subject: | Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several other homebuilders
boards for that matter. The most common piece of advice given to new builders
seems to be measure twice cut once. A great piece of advice for this expensive
hobby I think. Yet time after time I would see posts from new builders
that would indicate that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere
in the initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that
will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and time again and
I definitely will measure twice and cut only once.
Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks worth of building
an excellent workbench and creating a very functional workspace. All my tools
are in and I had inventoried every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd
or 4th time to look over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first
cut. I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to
the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they were perfect.
Then after a couple of practice snips with my new shears I made the cut....perfection.
So I did it again and again and again until I got what I thought
was a perfect 27 degrees on my double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work
I noticed a difference in what my piece looked like and what the pictures
in front of me showed on the next page. Panic set in. Not on the very first
piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements
were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation of what I read WRONG. I
now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree points on the ends of
each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double angle so it now looks
like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned and I will reorder my
parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the end of this week. My advice
to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ twice..ENVISION twice..Measure
twice..CUT once!
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? |
Larry you have this right on. It would be so unchristian of anybody not to accept
an apoligy and I am very impressed with Helen for stepping up to the plate.
No reason to leave here Helen.
Rob 701 builder
----- Original Message ----
From: Larry H <skyridersbn@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 2:09:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?
To error is human. To admit it takes a really BIG PERSON. If she is more than
willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take
her apology and accept it? To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shallow.
I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime
in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future.
Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she saw how wild this had gotten
out of hand so quickly. It takes a really great person to see the error
of their ways and admit it. Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons
of this. Helen, I for one wished you would remain a part of this group. I accept
your apology. Does anyone else agree with me?
Regards,
Larry Hursh
CH601XL (N601LL Reserved)
Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
Since this Helen woman's post in the Yahoo group that started all this got posted
here I though it was fitting to share the post
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Moving rudder pedals forward |
Great responses!
Here was my solution. Because I wanted to retain the opportunity to re-rig the
plane for a "normal sized" pilot, I remade my cabin floor and pedal bearing channel.
I added 40mm to the front edge of the channel (195mm instead of 155mm)
and added an additional 3/16" hole 33mm forward of the existing central pedal
bearing holes to allow forward adjustment by 1.3 inches. Pictures attached.
No change to the heel support.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. This list really saved the day.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL/Corvair from scratch
Control surfaces and wings complete.
Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done
Working on cabin floor
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173687#173687
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_pedal_bearing_channel_383.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pedal_bearing_in_forward_position_198.jpg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 09:46:39AM -0700, Grant Corriveau wrote:
> With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario
> where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem
> in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens
> a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream.
> My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude
> changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract
> the pilot.
AMD's POH says the canopy will trail in the slightly open position, but the
aircraft will remain controllable. It recommends slowing down and landing at
the first opportunity, and not allowing oneself to get distracted from
flying the airplane.
> My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
> accident - especially in water.
I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on land...but I do
wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the canopy
intact, or largely so.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 18
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Amen to that!
Kevin
John75142 wrote:
> Thanks for clearing that up, and all the good ideas. This list is the
> greatest, just goes to show you don't have to know everything (or much at
> all) to build a plane. All you have to do is ask and somebody out there will
> know the answer.
>
>
> Thanks guys
>
> John (Scratch building 701)
> Kaufman, Tx
>
>
> ---
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173694#173694
Message 19
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| Subject: | Canopy issues and VGs |
> Has anyone had an unlatching problem in flight and can tell us how the
canopy reacts? I imagine it opens a few inches and simply floats at that
position in the slip-stream.
Back in December Clive Richards sent out the attached report from the UK PFA
magazine of an anonymous pilot testing his (pre-XL?) 601 with an open
canopy. He attached a safety cord and intentionally unlatched his canopy.
Quoting:
"I commenced the test at 3500 ft and 80 knots cruise. I secured the safety
cord to the cleat at my elbow with about 1 ft of slack and released the
catch. The canopy rapidly popped up about 1 ft at the trailing edge as
expected. I then slowly paid out the cord from the cleat and allowed the
canopy to rise to a steady state. The canopy adopted a position where the
base of the canopy settled to an angle of about 35 degrees to the airflow.
Full lateral and pitch control could be maintained but forward speed dropped
to about 60 knots and despite increase to full throttle descent was about
300 ft/min. An unexpected problem now presented itself. I was descending
quickly and all the strength I could muster with my right arm was only just
sufficient to pull the cord down and cleat it progressively. Possibly the
slot effect at the front of the canopy open at the front increased the lift
(and additionally the gas struts require a cord load of 15 lbs static). I
finally, exhausted, got it down to about 6 inches and returned to."
Craig again. I had a similar experience in an Evektor SportStar. This LSA
resembles the 601XL: low wing, front-hinged bubble canopy. One difference is
that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind the
seats:
www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm
I was flying left-seat with my instructor. The canopy popped while we were
in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was well over a foot. While
the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I wrapped my arm around the
cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could not close the
canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evektor redesigned
the latch the next year.
I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the
canopy as it did not decrease as I closed the gap.
-- Craig
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
Hi Grant,
Re the feathers VGs. My experience is that stall is reduced by approx 5
mph, not 10 knots. My HDS 912 now stalls somewhere between 40 and 45
mph IAS INDICATED. What the actual AS is I really don't know. Would
that help on a water flop-in? Possibly.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 21
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HI WOULD LIKE TO BUY A 701 STOL.... OUT RIGHT OR TRADE SOME FOR MY PA 22
20 THANKS MIKE...
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
I carry a small hatchet in the cabin just in case. It has also come in
handy for digging the crud out out of tie-down padeyes and driving tie-
down stakes.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 1:04 PM, Jay Maynard wrote:
>
>> My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
>> accident - especially in water.
>
> I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on
> land...but I do
> wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the
> canopy
> intact, or largely so.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
Welcome Andrew,
I'd recommend you go to the drawings and remake the part you mess up. As
you become proficient at this, you'll find it's easier to not repeat
mistakes by
reading the drawings. You'll save a lot of money in the end and know a
lot more of the build processes. This is only the first of many parts
you'll
wait for, so you might as well get some tools that will save you a lot
of time and their cost ten times over.
Don't feel badly because we all have had do-overs, ,,,,,, and in time,
you could even become a scratch-builder.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Andrewlieser wrote:
>
> Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a difference in what my piece looked
like and what the pictures in front of me showed on the next page. Panic
set in. Not on the very first piece I thought so I checked my piece again and
sure enough WRONG. My measurements were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation!
> of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27
degree points on the ends of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double
angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned
and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the
end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ
twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once!
>
> --------
> Andrew Lieser
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
I have had one latch come loose in flight a few of times, never both.
In all cases, it occurred on takeoff. When one latch lets loose, that
side of the canopy lifts a couple of inches and makes a lot of noise
but nothing too startling. On one occasion, I was able to re-latch the
canopy after pulling the throttle to idle and slowing down, the other
times I just went around the pattern and landed so I could close it.
My problem was that I put some weatherstripping under the canopy to
cut down on drafts. In very cold weather, the stripping got so stiff,
it was hard to latch the canopy. A couple of times, I thought it was
latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected
this problem.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 12:46 PM, Grant Corriveau wrote:
> The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding
> the canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I
> don't know of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all
> remained flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was
> enroute to Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with
> visor, and finished the trip in the "open cockpit."
>
> With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario
> where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem
> in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens
> a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream.
> My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude
> changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract
> the pilot.
>
> My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
> accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of
> "Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10
> knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright
> vs. going over onto it's back.
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an escape tool, e.g.,
http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm
mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging upside
down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope you'll
never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it.
Meanwhile, I hope that Grant will post his before and after performance
data after he installs his VGs. To reduce stall speed, Grant might also
consider wing root fairings. Klaus Truemper reported an 8 kts (9mph) stall
speed reduction (and other performance improvements) when he installed wing
root fairings.
http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/hidden_drag.pdf
Terry
At 02:07 PM 3/30/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Grant,
>Re the feathers VGs. My experience is that stall is reduced by approx 5
>mph, not 10 knots. My HDS 912 now stalls somewhere between 40 and 45 mph
>IAS INDICATED. What the actual AS is I really don't know. Would that
>help on a water flop-in? Possibly.
>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>At 12:04 PM 3/30/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>>AMD's POH says the canopy will trail in the slightly open position, but the
>>aircraft will remain controllable. It recommends slowing down and landing at
>>the first opportunity, and not allowing oneself to get distracted from
>>flying the airplane.
>>
>> > My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
>> > accident - especially in water.
>>
>>I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on land...but I do
>>wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the canopy
>>intact, or largely so.
>
>
>Terry Phillips
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>are done; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
Hello Mr. Corriveau!
Issue 1: Preventing accidental canopy release. My work around, independent canopy
latch release rings.
Issue 2: What to do once the canopy is released in flight?
A. Use a cord to pull it down. (Is the pilot strong enough?)
B. Incorporate small winglets on the rear of the canopy to push down on the rear
of the canopy in combination with a lower front air seal mounted on the fuselage
to prevent/disrupt a large rush of air under the canopy's leading edge upon
release. The winglets are not strong enough to push down a canopy opened
a few inches , but they do, combined with the lower air seal, keep the canopy
down rattling against the latch. Not enough to relatch the canopy, but enough
to be ignored until after landing. Remember, the struts actually help hold the
canopy down so long as they are not extended very far.
The FAA teased me once they saw the "new" canopy. They claimed that I now had
a bi-plane. I reminded them that one set gives lift, and one set pushes. You
would not think a few square inches of material combined with a little foam
rubber would do much.
The original intent was to hold the rear of the canopy down while it slid back
4" off its rails during ejection, allowing the air to pick up the front of the
canopy and launch the canopy up and over the airframe. The winglets take the
place of the factory handles and are also used to open and close the canopy.
P.S. I had never thought to work through a nose over in water. Thank you. I will
add canopy ejection to my ditching procedures.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173715#173715
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
RE: Ditching - A fixed gear aircraft will likely turn over upon contact with the
water and then return to a nose down attitude while air seeps out of the wings
and fuselage. While unlatching the canopy prior to ditching might be a good
idea, I don't think I would jettison it. It will offer some protection to
the occupants in the event of a controlled ditching. If unlatched, once the plane
semi-rights itself it should be easy to open. If the airplane sinks rapidly
the bubble of air within will lift open an unlatched canopy.
The pilot of a piper cherokee that ditched in Lake Michigan had time to step out
on the wing and use his cell phone to call 911. Unfortunately he didn't have
a life jacket and perished after the plane sank into Lake Michigan, about 3
miles off Milwaukee. I saw underwater video of it showing it simply sitting upright
on the bottom of the lake.
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173723#173723
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
I remember that incident. NTSB Identification: CHI05FA180. He went
down in Lake Michigan just before midnight on April 25. A life jacket
probably wouldn't have saved him but it would at least have made it
possible to recover his body. If you go into that lake at that time
of year, if you aren't rescued in about half an hour, you probably
won't survive. That water is COLD. Even in the summer, it doesn't get
very warm. If you don't have a life raft, your chances of surviving a
ditching in any the great lakes is pretty slim if you don't get
rescued quickly.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Tim Juhl wrote:
>
> RE: Ditching - A fixed gear aircraft will likely turn over upon
> contact with the water and then return to a nose down attitude while
> air seeps out of the wings and fuselage. While unlatching the
> canopy prior to ditching might be a good idea, I don't think I
> would jettison it. It will offer some protection to the occupants
> in the event of a controlled ditching. If unlatched, once the plane
> semi-rights itself it should be easy to open. If the airplane sinks
> rapidly the bubble of air within will lift open an unlatched canopy.
>
> The pilot of a piper cherokee that ditched in Lake Michigan had time
> to step out on the wing and use his cell phone to call 911.
> Unfortunately he didn't have a life jacket and perished after the
> plane sank into Lake Michigan, about 3 miles off Milwaukee. I saw
> underwater video of it showing it simply sitting upright on the
> bottom of the lake.
>
> Tim
> do not archive
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
Andrew,
Larry has given you good advice, it seems the only kind he has, to try making the
part yourself. Persistence and patience are what makes these dreams come true.
I am building an XL but the methods are probably the same for the rudder skin.
Here is a link the where I started with a rectangle of aluminum. Made the skin
then trimmed it to the frame.
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=9949&row=463
Enjoy,
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173739#173739
Message 30
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I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different people
think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place with over 300
VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR flight is not out of
the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross country flights. Can anyone
with a tinted canopy, tell me how they see at night? I plan to order from
Todd's Canopy's if that makes any difference.
Larry Husky
601XL / O-200
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 31
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| Subject: | To whom it may concern |
For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at
Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and
pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one
apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a
tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless
someone takes me under their wing. My cell is
5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th
of april.
For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my
website:
roysgarage.com
Thank you
Roy
Message 32
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| Subject: | Canopy issues and VGs |
"A couple of times, I thought it was latched but one side came loose after
takeoff. I have since corrected this problem."OK Bryan--how did you fix the
problem?
I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a couple of ti
mes. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed to relatch it. Also
probably the result of weatherstripping.
>From a safety point of view I do not want to put and lockable devices insid
e that can not be accessed from the outside in case of the need for externa
l help.
George May
601XL 912s
_________________________________________________________________
Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference
. Learn more.
Message 33
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| Subject: | To whom it may concern |
Roy, I won't make it to SnF but I hope to be at Oshkosh. Will you be there
too?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy Szarafinski
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: To whom it may concern
For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at
Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and
pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one
apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a
tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless
someone takes me under their wing. My cell is
5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th
of april.
For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my
website:
roysgarage.com
Thank you
Roy
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
Bryan is absolutely correct. The stupid thing is that he ran out of gas about
three miles short of land. A lesson to us all.
I've spent a lot of years scuba diving in the great lakes and produced a number
of video documentaries and two books on shipwrecks. A friend of mine survived
the sinking of a freighter in a storm in 1966 and endured 38 hours of freezing
temps on an open raft clad only in boxer shorts, a peacoat and lifejacket.
He was the only survivor of a crew of 29, but he survived. I try to avoid crossing
large expanses of water when the water temps are below 60 and when I do
cross I pick my routes carefully, grab plenty of altitude, wear my lifejacket
and have a communications plan. Those of us who live in Michigan have to deal
with water when traveling any direction but south :-)
Tim
do not archive
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173748#173748
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| Subject: | Re: Tented or not? |
Larry,
I'd be careful to buy a UV coated canopy in nothing darker than a light
champagne color. The tinted canopy would be amplified by sunglasses
that are more often than
not polarized. This could become an uncomfortable situation in less
than great lighting. Think internal canopy cover, retractable or a good
full brim hat first.
And GPS with autopilots aren't that good yet!
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different
> people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place
> with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR
> flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross
> country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me how they
> see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that makes any
> difference.
>
> Larry Husky
> 601XL / O-200
>
> *
>
> *
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Tented or not? |
My canopy is tented and is a blessing on a sunny day. Night flight is
not an issue.
Do not archive - covered several times before.
--
Leo Gates
N601Z - CH601hds TDO
Rotax 912UL
LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different
> people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place
> with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR
> flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross
> country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me how they
> see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that makes any
> difference.
>
> Larry Husky
> 601XL / O-200
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Tented or not? |
I don't have any problem flying at night with mine. It's not much
different than driving at night in a car with standard tinted
windshield.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:01 PM, LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different
> people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry
> place with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a
> night VFR flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot
> of cross country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me
> how they see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that
> makes any difference.
>
> Larry Husky
> 601XL / O-200
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
I removed the weatherstripping from between canopy frame and the cabin
side rails that was making it difficult to close. Now it closes
easily. I temporarily put some weather stripping on the side rails so
that it butts up against the canopy. This seals out the drafts
without requiring the strip to be squeezed in the gap. I am still
looking for a more permanent solution. I am thinking of a weather
strip that attaches to the inner side of canopy rail with a flap that
sticks down and inward that will butt up against the cabin side rail.
Air leaks out through the gap so the suction should help this
arrangement seal up.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:17 PM, george may wrote:
> "A couple of times, I thought it was
> latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected
> this problem."
>
>
> OK Bryan--how did you fix the problem?
>
> I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a
> couple of times. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed
> to relatch it. Also probably the result of weatherstripping.
> >From a safety point of view I do not want to put and lockable
> devices inside that can not be accessed from the outside in case of
> the need for external help.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
Many yrs ago I was on base to 36 at OSH when a guy called in a mayday while
over the lake, they gave him a straight in on 27 , I couldn't let that pass
so I extended my base, climbing and turning toward the end of 27 so I might
see him highlighted against the water. Picked him up about 10 seconds
before he hit. boats were moving toward him before he even hit the water,
all 4 folks got out safely. they had gone non-stop from New York in a
Cessna of some variety and got within 400 yrds of the shore before the
engine ran dry of gas. That's REALLY making an entrance.
John
Bryan is absolutely correct. The stupid thing is that he ran out of gas
about three miles short of land. A lesson to us all.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy issues and VGs |
While getting my first look at a factory built XL, the instructor's
first words about the craft were that the latch is a poor design and
problematic.
The discussion of the latch on this list tend to confirm this as a problem.
When I get to that point in my build, I will certainly look into this
and possibly find a simple and reliable solution. I recall one aircraft
that I have flown where you reach in through the window vent to get
access to the internal latch. (Kind of like an old MG :) )
Jim
Grant Corriveau wrote:
>>
>> I had always toyed with the idea of an ejector canopy & emergency
>> chute or whole
>>
>> aircraft chute.
>>
>
> The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding the
> canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I don't know
> of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all remained
> flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was enroute to
> Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with visor, and
> finished the trip in the "open cockpit."
>
> With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario
> where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem
> in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens a
> few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. My
> only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude
> changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract
> the pilot.
>
> My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over
> accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of
> "Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10
> knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright vs.
> going over onto it's back.
>
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF HDS
> CAM100
> *
>
>
> *
Message 41
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| Subject: | Canopy issues and VGs |
Bryan
Thanks for the reply--been looking at some similar fixes myself. Will let y
ou know if they are successful
George may
do not archive
From: bryanmmartin@comcast.netTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Zen
ith-List: Canopy issues and VGsDate: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:07:32 -0400I remov
ed the weatherstripping from between canopy frame and the cabin side rails
that was making it difficult to close. Now it closes easily. I temporarily
put some weather stripping on the side rails so that it butts up against th
e canopy. This seals out the drafts without requiring the strip to be sque
ezed in the gap. I am still looking for a more permanent solution. I am thi
nking of a weather strip that attaches to the inner side of canopy rail wit
h a flap that sticks down and inward that will butt up against the cabin si
de rail. Air leaks out through the gap so the suction should help this arra
ngement seal up.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:17 PM, george may wrote:
"A couple of times, I thought it was latched but one side came loose after
takeoff. I have since corrected this problem."OK Bryan--how did you fix the
problem? I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a
couple of times. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed to rela
tch it. Also probably the result of weatherstripping.>From a safety point o
f view I do not want to put and lockable devices inside that can not be acc
essed from the outside in case of the need for external help.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
_________________________________________________________________
Test your Star IQ
http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR
Message 42
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| Subject: | ZENITH 701 FOR SALE |
Listers,
Hard to believe it, but I will be selling my CH-701 I completed, test flew,
and have been flying since Dec 2006. I have about 70 hours on it (probabl
y more like 75, but I need to log my last couple of flights). I have stand
ard VFR instrumentation (airspeed, A/I, D/G, Alt, elect Turn and bank, and
VSI) along with compass, standard rotax engine and fuel guages, elect. trim
, nav/strobes, and elt. I have a panel mount radio and transponder. Plane
is ready for paint by the new owner.
I am selling to start my new project: a cozy mk IV. There are a couple of
pics also on my ad in barnstormers. If anyone is interested please contac
t me off list.
Do Not Archive
Mike Gross
gross_michael@hotmail.com
_________________________________________________________________
How well do you know your celebrity gossip?
http://originals.msn.com/thebigdebate?ocid=T002MSN03N0707A
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
Sometimes it helps to make a "part" out of paper or thin cardboard, fit it and
than
you'll have a true visual picture of what it should look like. Mirror images can
be very confusing at times, too. Especially for those of us conceptually challenged!
Good Luck.
Terry Turnquist
601XL-Plans
St. peters, MO
So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several other homebuilders
boards for that matter. The most common piece of advice given to new builders
seems to be measure twice cut once. A great piece of advice for this expensive
hobby I think. Yet time after time I would see posts from new builders
that would indicate that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere
in the initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that
will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and time again and
I definitely will measure twice and cut only once.
Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks worth of building
an excellent workbench and creating a very functional workspace. All my tools
are in and I had inventoried every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd
or 4th time to look over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first
cut. I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to
the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they were perfect.
Then after a couple of practice snips with my new shears I made the cut....perfection.
So I did it again and again and again until I got what I thought
was a perfect 27 degrees on my double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work
I noticed a difference in what my piece looked like and what the pictures
in front of me showed on the next page. Panic set in. Not on the very first
piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements
were perfect my cuts perfect my
interpretation!
of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree
points on the ends of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double
angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned
and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the
end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ
twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once!
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
And mark everything with name orientation rib number etc. And keep
some "eraser" (alcohol etc) handy to removed "typos". I only mention
this because I'm terrible about it. But everything goes smoother
with proper markings. Don't ask how I know this, the answer would
take way too long!
Ron
601XL wings
do not archive
On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Terry Turnquist wrote:
> Sometimes it helps to make a "part" out of paper or thin cardboard,
> fit it and than
> you'll have a true visual picture of what it should look like.
> Mirror images can be very confusing at times, too. Especially for
> those of us conceptually challenged!
> Good Luck.
>
> Terry Turnquist
> 601XL-Plans
> St. peters, MO
>
> Andrewlieser <Andrewlieser@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several
> other homebuilders boards for that matter. The most common piece of
> advice given to new builders seems to be measure twice cut once. A
> great piece of advice for this expensive hobby I think. Yet time
> after time I would see posts from new builders that would indicate
> that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere in the
> initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that
> will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and
> time again and I definitely will measure twice and cut only once.
> Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks
> worth of building an excellent workbench and creating a very
> functional workspace. All my tools are in and I had inventoried
> every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd or 4th time to look
> over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first cut.
> I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to
> the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they
> were perfect. Then after a couple of practice snips with my new
> shears I made the cut....perfection. So I did it again and again
> and again until I got what I thought was a perfect 27 degrees on my
> double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a
> difference in what my piece looked like and what the
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts |
Fitting the fuselage side skins...
Everything appears to fit except for the pre-cut slots in the fuselage side skins
(where the wings insert into the center spar). Either the center spar is at
an incorrect angle, or the slot in the side skins are at the wrong angle. The
rest of the holes in the skins look dead-on, and the longerons are level.
It's off by quite a bit. Pictures here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/XLSideSkins
I measure the angle between the center spar and the floor at 77 degrees, and the
angle between the center spar and the upper longerons is 81 degrees. Does that
match what you guys have...?
Anybody else ran into anything like this...?
Thanks,
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173802#173802
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Good evening,
I have just updated the Crankshaft status page on the web site and also
added the ANS report at the bottom of the page. It can be viewed at
_www.aeroliteproducts.com/Crankshaft_Status.php_
(http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/Crankshaft_Status.php)
.
Jeff
_www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com)
502-644-8123
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE |
ID LIKE TO BUY IT....MIKE WEGNER OSCEOLA WI.... 715 294 4296 CALL OR
WRITE BACK TO ME
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Gross
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:12 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE
Listers,
Hard to believe it, but I will be selling my CH-701 I completed, test
flew, and have been flying since Dec 2006. I have about 70 hours on it
(probably more like 75, but I need to log my last couple of flights). I
have standard VFR instrumentation (airspeed, A/I, D/G, Alt, elect Turn
and bank, and VSI) along with compass, standard rotax engine and fuel
guages, elect. trim, nav/strobes, and elt. I have a panel mount radio
and transponder. Plane is ready for paint by the new owner.
I am selling to start my new project: a cozy mk IV. There are a
couple of pics also on my ad in barnstormers. If anyone is interested
please contact me off list.
Do Not Archive
Mike Gross
gross_michael@hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
How well do you know your celebrity gossip? Talk celebrity smackdowns
here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
3/29/2008 5:02 PM
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% |
Thanks to everyone! I do intend to eventually make some parts myself and also
think that it would help my understanding of the part but I decided to go with
the rudder as a kit as kind of a baby step. The cardboard is a great idea, I
have a lot of that laying around to. I will replace the alcohol I have around
with the kind that I can use as an eraser (probably a better idea anyway).
I appreciate all of the responses with advice both as posts and personal messages.
I tried not to let it bug me, the fact that it was the very first part,
but it was a little discouraging initially. Hearing that others have made similar
mistakes is very comforting though. I will be back in the saddle again in
the middle of this week hopefully with better result and will post some pictures
of the miscut pieces on my website to help others avoid the same mistake.
All these responses only solidify in my mind that I chose the right project
with a great network of experienced builders that I WILL need advice from to finish
my aircraft! Thanks again to everyone!
Andrew Lieser
601XL Builder (and aluminum scrap collecter) :)
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173810#173810
Message 49
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| Subject: | To whom it may concern |
Roy, you are welcome to bring it to the Zenith BBQ on Thursday evening.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at
Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and
pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one
apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a
tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless
someone takes me under their wing. My cell is
5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th
of april.
For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my
website:
roysgarage.com
Thank you
Roy
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts |
I thought it was just me. Mine from the complete kit didn't fit. The cutout was
at 81.9 degrees instead of 81. I called Caleb at the factory and he said that
it was close enough.. I ended up redoing both side skins to the plans. Is everyone
else just forcing the center spar to fit??
do not archive
Fred Sanford Ca. N9601 99%
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173823#173823
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