---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/31/08: 68 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:05 AM - Re: Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 2. 03:49 AM - To Hinge or not to Hinge (Ianrat) 3. 05:43 AM - Canopy issues and VGs (Frank Derfler) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Paul Mulwitz) 5. 06:36 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Dave Austin) 6. 07:22 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (William Dominguez) 7. 07:48 AM - Monday Evening Chat Room (George Race) 8. 08:49 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Peter Chapman) 9. 08:49 AM - Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (PatrickW) 10. 09:09 AM - [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Gig Giacona) 11. 09:13 AM - 701 Fixed Canard Wing (George Race) 12. 09:15 AM - Looking for a 701 amphib (Russ GREENWAY) 13. 09:27 AM - Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (DaveG601XL) 14. 09:30 AM - Re: Looking for a 701 amphib (Gig Giacona) 15. 09:45 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (ashontz) 16. 09:46 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (ashontz) 17. 10:00 AM - Re: Elevator Limits (Cessna 172) (ashontz) 18. 10:48 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Juan Vega) 19. 10:50 AM - Re: 701 Fixed Canard Wing (John Marzulli) 20. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tanks (LarryMcFarland) 21. 10:56 AM - Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF (John Warren) 22. 11:13 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Juan Vega) 23. 11:29 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Gig Giacona) 24. 11:29 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (ashontz) 25. 11:34 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (ashontz) 26. 11:37 AM - Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge (Gig Giacona) 27. 11:52 AM - couple of questions (Bob McArdle) 28. 11:53 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Gig Giacona) 29. 12:00 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (ashontz) 30. 12:14 PM - Re: In-flight breakup (japhillipsga@aol.com) 31. 12:14 PM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? () 32. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: deburring tool () 33. 12:38 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% () 34. 12:38 PM - Re: couple of questions (Craig Payne) 35. 12:57 PM - Re: couple of questions (DaveG601XL) 36. 01:25 PM - Re: couple of questions (Bryan Martin) 37. 01:34 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Bryan Martin) 38. 01:50 PM - Re: couple of questions (george may) 39. 02:22 PM - EAA videos (thesumak@aol.com) 40. 02:45 PM - Re: couple of questions (Craig Payne) 41. 03:09 PM - Re: couple of questions (Dan) 42. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Terry Phillips) 43. 04:06 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Tim Juhl) 44. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (steve) 45. 05:06 PM - [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Gig Giacona) 46. 05:06 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (ashontz) 47. 05:16 PM - Re: couple of questions (Herb Heaton) 48. 05:40 PM - Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (Andrewlieser) 49. 05:42 PM - Re: Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF (rbjjr) 50. 05:45 PM - Re: couple of questions (Craig Payne) 51. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Larry H) 52. 05:48 PM - Dumb Rivet Question (rbjjr) 53. 05:55 PM - High wind limits for the 601 series? (LarryMcFarland) 54. 05:55 PM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Jay Maynard) 55. 06:08 PM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (ernie) 56. 06:37 PM - Re: couple of questions (John Bolding) 57. 06:37 PM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (Paul Riedlinger) 58. 06:37 PM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 59. 06:47 PM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Larry H) 60. 06:59 PM - Re: Dumb Rivet Question (LRM) 61. 07:08 PM - Re: Dumb Rivet Question (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 62. 07:32 PM - Re: couple of questions (Paul Mulwitz) 63. 07:34 PM - Building Engine Mount (John Smith) 64. 07:37 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Ron Lendon) 65. 08:07 PM - Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? (Ron Lendon) 66. 08:55 PM - Re: couple of questions (Craig Payne) 67. 09:38 PM - Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? (Stanley Challgren) 68. 10:15 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (austria) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:04 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts Whenever I order a kit from Zenith I ask them what "improvements" have you made. I told them not to cut the side skins because I have templates I use to make the cut outs that I know are correct. One area they cut out on the skin that is a problem if your not careful is the lower front of the side skin where it wraps around the fire wall. If you aren't careful and don't get the firewall tight to the lower skin the side skin will be too short and the pre punched holes of the lower skin will be even with the side skin lower edge and there is nothing you can do to fix it except make a new skin and trim to fit. I told zenith they should leave extra there but I don't know if they did or not but mine will come uncut. A lot of the problems they seem to be having has stemmed from them changing their motor mount it seems to me. Jeff In a message dated 3/31/2008 12:26:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sonar1@cox.net writes: I thought it was just me. Mine from the complete kit didn't fit. The cutout was at 81.9 degrees instead of 81. I called Caleb at the factory and he said that it was close enough.. I ended up redoing both side skins to the plans. Is everyone else just forcing the center spar to fit?? **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge From: "Ianrat" In the 601 XL kit I have the option to use the original aileron hinge or the newer piano hinge. Can any one tell the different qualities of both systems. I have conflicting reports on both. One says the piano hinge is lighter to fly with. Thank you Ianrat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173839#173839 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:20 AM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs I fly out of Marathon in the Florida Keys. Probably 95% of my flying is over water. Fortunately, the water is usually warm and shallow. But, I know several people who fly out of here who have ditched, we talk about it at EAA safety meetings, and I think about it a lot. Initially, my thought was that if I had to ditch I would open the canopy before ditching and hope that it flew forward and departed the airplane during deceleration. Then, inadvertently, I flew twice with the passenger side latch not securely closed to the second "click." (Always happens with new passengers who don't understand the need for "two clicks" on their side. Usually big guys who I can't see or reach behind to check the latch myself. That one small opening increases wind noise and tries to suck their shirts outside. So, I put myself in the scenario of a dead engine, going through the restart drill, looking for "thin water", dialing 7700, saying something on 121.5, and trimming for best angle of glide. Now, as I'm trying to stall with the wheels a few inches over the water I'm going to add noise, wind, a nose down attitude, and tons of drag by popping the canopy? Something I've never practiced? Duh! Popping the canopy is something that initially sounds good, but after thinking about it my position is that it adds too many unpracticed variables, (drag, changed attitude, noise, strange wind) to an already stressful operation. It goes from smart to dumb. A valuable lesson that EVERYONE who has ditched repeats over and over is that you only take with you what you have on you. Yes, it gives you a sense of well being to have those $11.95 orange life vests in the back. It makes you feel good to have the crash axe "secured" (a heavy object "secured"against the G-force of a ditching? Ha!) someplace. But, what the folks who have been there and done that say is that if you don't have it on your body, then you don't have it. My passenger and I always wear the "suspender" type life preserver. (No, they ain't heap!) I have a SPOT satellite personal tracker (yes, it is waterproof) attached to it. On my belt I have a dive knife with a strong heavily serrated blade. Other folks around here fly with a "belly bag" holding a personal EPIRB, a big Leatherman, and whatever else makes them comfy. We have video of a news helicopter circling over a ditched airplane here. The two pilots are in life preservers floating near the semi-submerged low wing airplane. Even with orange life preservers, they looked awfully tiny from the chopper. Many of us also include a visual strobe on the life preserver. One other thing we hear from the folks who have ditched is that anything in the airplane will be on top of you. So, look at that nice storage space behind the seats. See the spare engine oil, the tools, the cans of paint and polish, the old plugs you can't throw away? They are all going to hit you on the head and then sit in your lap. I STILL have not come up with a good baggage compartment net for the 601XL. HINT: If you want a little lucrative sideline, put together a 601XL baggage net kit for retrofit. (It's too late to put it in during construction!) Having said all that, I will also say that flying over the waters of the Florida Keys is a thrill you should all have! Smooth and beautiful! -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:58 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge Hi Lanrat, I think the hingeless ailerons are a better choice, but either choice will produce a nice airplane. The differences are relatively minor. The hingeless ailerons are stiff. This is not a problem since it is the force transferred from your pressure on the stick to the roll performance of the airplane that counts rather than the movement of the stick in the roll control direction. Under most circumstances the stick doesn't actually move a noticeable amount. The hinged ailerons probably provide more stick movement under some conditions, but actually provide less performance. This is because the hingeless ailerons are perfectly sealed while some air flow leaks around and through the hinges. This seal becomes important when considering the low speed roll performance of the plane. Still, my main point is the decision is not a major one. Paul XL fuselage At 03:46 AM 3/31/2008, you wrote: >In the 601 XL kit I have the option to use the original aileron >hinge or the newer piano hinge. > >Can any one tell the different qualities of both systems. I have >conflicting reports on both. One says the piano hinge is lighter to fly with. > >Thank you > > >Ianrat ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:36 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge I had HD wings for 5 years without the hinges - then 10 years with HDS wings with hinges. Aileron control is somewhat lighter for small inputs and significantly lighter for large inputs. I found the hinges to be less tiring on long trips and gave the a/c "better" balance between aileron and elevator control. I say "better" as elevator control is very light compared with ailerons with either no hinge or hinge. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:07 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge The hingeless are better aerodinamically speaking, slightly lighter in weight and simpler to assemble. I chose the piano hinge option mostly because I can remove the aileron without removing any rivets - removing the ailerons and flaps simplify a lot of issues with trailering and storing the plane in its trailer - but this is something most people won't need to do. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom In the 601 XL kit I have the option to use the original aileron hinge or the newer piano hinge. Can any one tell the different qualities of both systems. I have conflicting reports on both. One says the piano hinge is lighter to fly with. Thank you Ianrat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173839#173839 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:40 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Monday Evening Chat Room Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern (Daylight Savings Time now in effect) http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George CH-701 N73EX (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:51 AM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge Like Dave Austin, I also found the hinged ailerons better in flight. For very small roll control adjustments I didn't mind the hingeless. But when on final approach, at lower speed, making bigger corrections for crosswinds and gusts, there I really noticed the awkwardness of having very light pitch control, yet heavier roll pressures. The roll pressures were not "too heavy" on their own, but the control harmony certainly could have been better. (This was on a 601 HD.) Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts From: "PatrickW" sonar1@cox.net wrote: > I thought it was just me. Mine from the complete kit didn't fit. The cutout was at 81.9 degrees instead of 81. I called Caleb at the factory and he said that it was close enough.. I ended up redoing both side skins to the plans. Is everyone else just forcing the center spar to fit?? It's off by too much to force the spar to fit. Metal would have to be bent. Plus there's two rivet lines on the skins leading up from the center spar that will presumably be off, since they are parallel to the cutout. Longerons are bolted to the motor mount, and they are level, so there's no question of inaccuracy on that end. I think I'll have to call Zenith and see what they say... Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173898#173898 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? From: "Gig Giacona" Well Helen isn't going to leave here because she, to my knowledge, has never posted here. She is one of the Moderators Yahoo LSA Group which is where she posted both the message I quoted and the original message where she slandered AMD. There is a difference in accepting an apology and believing anything she ever posts again. She didn't just pass along a rumor. She stated that she talked to the FAA and they confirmed that there was airworthiness issues. There weren't any and the FAA didn't. She lied and considering her position with a competing aircraft builder It's pretty obvious that she new exactly what she was doing. I know if I were AMD just an apology isn't what I'd be looking for. Let's keep in mind that her original post is going to be there for a long long time and people tend, I've we've seen lately, to believe just about anything they read. The possible damage to AMD and Zenith is impossible to calculate. But, I know a couple of lawyers you would probably like to try. Her statement, "While my intentions were benign, I inadvertently caused considerable harm with my earlier posting." Seem pretty lame considering she asked someone if they wanted to buy a plane from her in the same post where she attacked AMD. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173900#173900 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:53 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Fixed Canard Wing I noticed today on the Zenith Screen Saver there were a pair of 701's shown that have a Fixed Canard Wing near the front of the cowling. Having experienced the difference a couple of small Canard Wings has made on a local 182, gentler handling during stalls and better low landing speed handling, I wonder if any of that would apply to the 701 as well. Has anyone on the list had any experience with this concept in the 701? If so what was learned about handling changes if any? George CH701 Kit (Almost Done) N73EX (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:19 AM PST US From: "Russ GREENWAY" Subject: Zenith-List: Looking for a 701 amphib Going again to Sun-n-fun to see if I can find a built 701 amphib to possibly purchase. Anyone know of one for sale that may or not be at Sun-n-fun this year? Have gone to the 'splash in' the last 3 years and OshKosh water event last year and have yet to find a 701 participating much less possibly for sale. Any help in finding one would be great. Russ Greenway West Point Lake LaGrange, GA kylepilot@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Zenith-List Digest Server To: Zenith-List Digest List Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 50 Msgs - 03/30/08 * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 08-03-30&Archive=Zenith Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 08-03-30&Archive=Zenith ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/30/08: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:15 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (James E. Lanier) 2. 04:38 AM - Sun-N-Fun (ZodieRocket) 3. 04:54 AM - Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 (ZodieRocket) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (Bruce Johnson) 5. 06:34 AM - Fuel tanks (John Short) 6. 06:41 AM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Tommy Walker) 7. 07:09 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (leinad) 8. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (Paul Mulwitz) 9. 07:59 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (LarryMcFarland) 10. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION (steve) 11. 09:32 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (John Short) 12. 09:39 AM - Re: Moving rudder pedals forward (Grant Corriveau) 13. 09:50 AM - Canopy issues and VGs (Grant Corriveau) 14. 09:52 AM - Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Andrewlieser) 15. 09:56 AM - Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? (Robert Hansen) 16. 09:57 AM - Re: Moving rudder pedals forward (lwinger) 17. 10:09 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Jay Maynard) 18. 10:35 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (kmccune) 19. 11:08 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Craig Payne) 20. 11:13 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Dave Austin) 21. 11:27 AM - 701 (Micael W Wegner) 22. 11:55 AM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin) 23. 11:55 AM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (LarryMcFarland) 24. 12:07 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin) 25. 12:15 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Terry Phillips) 26. 12:21 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Sabrina) 27. 01:27 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Tim Juhl) 28. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin) 29. 02:57 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Ron Lendon) 30. 03:08 PM - Tented or not? (LHusky@aol.com) 31. 03:11 PM - To whom it may concern (Roy Szarafinski) 32. 03:21 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (george may) 33. 03:23 PM - Re: To whom it may concern (Craig Payne) 34. 03:26 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Tim Juhl) 35. 03:36 PM - Re: Tented or not? (LarryMcFarland) 36. 03:46 PM - Re: Tented or not? (Leo Gates) 37. 03:52 PM - Re: Tented or not? (Bryan Martin) 38. 04:14 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Bryan Martin) 39. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (John Bolding) 40. 04:24 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (James E. Lanier) 41. 04:59 PM - Re: Canopy issues and VGs (george may) 42. 06:18 PM - ZENITH 701 FOR SALE (Michael Gross) 43. 06:21 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Terry Turnquist) 44. 06:47 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Ronald Steele) 45. 07:48 PM - XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (PatrickW) 46. 08:07 PM - Crank Update (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 47. 08:15 PM - Re: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE (Micael W Wegner) 48. 08:19 PM - Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% (Andrewlieser) 49. 08:23 PM - Re: To whom it may concern (ZodieRocket) 50. 09:25 PM - Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts (sonar1@cox.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:12 AM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot regs? Do you have a link? (do not archive) Jim Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 08:11:31PM -0400, James E. Lanier wrote: > >> http://www.zenithair.com/misc/turbine-power.html >> "No sports pilots can fly it. Jerry" >> Question: If a sport pilot can't fly it...who can? I guess I don't know >> my regulations very well. >> > > A private pilot or above. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:42 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" > Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun HI Folks, I would like to here from all Florida residents that live in Florida that are attending the Thursday evening Sun-N-Fun BBQ. Could you please reply to bbq@can-zacaviation.com with your name and phone # Thanks Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:59 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" > Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 Sun-N-Fun BBQ 08 Time is drawing near, please sign up now! I need to print the name tags Tomorrow and order the food for the event. Also, due to unforeseen problems I find myself in need of volunteers, if your have a chance to help out with the event please send me an E-Mail at bbq@can-zacaviation.com This event is not an official Zenith function, it is by builders for builders. With over 200 people the last two BBQ's it is the biggest gathering of builders and owners. I am in need of help this year in order to keep the BBQ going smoothly. Thursday April 10th 2008 5pm - 8pm in the Campground Jim Hoak's Campsite, same spot as last year. Jabiru USA > , Flightcrafters > , AirFox , Sensornetics > and William Wynne > have all offered sponsorship for this years event. Cummins Spinners > and Homebuilthelp.com > have donated prizes for this years draw. Zenith Aircraft and Can-Zac Aviation have also donated for a special gift to the first 90 builders that arrive at the Sun-N-Fun BBQ pre-registered for the event. Don't miss out on this special gift pre-register NOW. Welcome to the 2008 BBQ sign up, Please take a moment to visit http://www.ch601.org > or http://www.ch701.com > for the sign up sheet. This will be for your name tag and will be your ticket for the cooks to provide you with a great dinner. Plus this event is getting very large and I need an idea on how much food to buy so that we feed everyone and don't run out! Lets make it bigger this year, I have more give a ways, the first 90 people with a pre-registered name badge will receive a gift. Limit one per family please. Thanks cdngoose Sun-N-Fun BBQ 07 Bill Bodin won the Raffle for the Made to order Cummins Spinner. This prize is custom made just for you! You tell us what prop and engine you will be using and the Spinner will be made to order and arrive at your door! Don't Miss Sun-N-Fun 2008 BBQ Thursday April 10th 2008 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:38 AM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION www.sportpilot.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James E. Lanier Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 2:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION > OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot regs? Do you have a link? (do not archive) Jim Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 08:11:31PM -0400, James E. Lanier wrote: > >> http://www.zenithair.com/misc/turbine-power.html >> "No sports pilots can fly it. Jerry" >> Question: If a sport pilot can't fly it...who can? I guess I don't know >> my regulations very well. >> > > A private pilot or above. > Checked by AVG. AM Checked by AVG. AM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:38 AM PST US From: "John Short" > Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity? CREATIVE SIGNWORKS 1168 Byron Rd. Kaufman, Tx 75142 John & Mindy Short 972-962-7464 Cell: 214-240-3815 www.creative-sign-works.com creativesigns@embarqmail.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:16 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? I am a little (no, maybe a lot) slow. Shouldn't the acceptance of apology me made on the Yahoo forum? I thought that's where the transgression and apology were made. Otherwise, the transgressor will not know. But then, like I said.. :-) Regards, Do Not Archive Tommy Walker in Alabama N8701 - 40.5 Hrs. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "leinad" > John, I think those beads are to add some rigidity to spread the loads along the seam, otherwise the loads would get concentrated at the center. Instead of purchasing a fancy set of beading rollers I made wooden form blocks and squeezed the beeds into the metal. See the link below. By the way I haven't finished my tanks yet, but the beeding blocks worked well. Dan Dempsey http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/zodiac/fuel/beedblocks.htm -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173648#173648 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:50 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION At 12:10 AM 3/30/2008, you wrote: >OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I >find the sport pilot regs? Do you have a link? Hi Jim, In this case, the important part of the FARs is not about the sport pilot certificate, but the definition of a Light-Sport airplane. Here is a pasted copy of the relevant portion of FAR 1.1 Definitions: ___________ Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than=AD (i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or (ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level. (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider. (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. (5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot. (6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered. (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider. (8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider. (9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane. (10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin. (11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider. (12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider. ___________ For this engine discussion, I believe a rotary engine can be lumped into the class of reciprocating engines (item 6 above) but any turbine engine would not fit. Paul XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:58 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks Hi John, Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the sides. This is what puts a focus on bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be easier to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting indent reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming and flexure. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com John Short wrote: > Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called > for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the > beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the > older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity? > > > > CREATIVE SIGNWORKS > 1168 Byron Rd. > Kaufman, Tx 75142 > John & Mindy Short > 972-962-7464 > Cell: 214-240-3815 > www.creative-sign-works.com > > creativesigns@embarqmail.com > > * > * ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:01 AM PST US From: "steve" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION Please go to the EAA website and get the straight scoop. The EAA has been in driving force behind the LSA since conception.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: SPORT PILOT / ROTARY ENGINE QUESTION At 12:10 AM 3/30/2008, you wrote: OK thanks. .I am a private pilot. Where can I find the sport pilot regs? Do you have a link? Hi Jim, In this case, the important part of the FARs is not about the sport pilot certificate, but the definition of a Light-Sport airplane. Here is a pasted copy of the relevant portion of FAR 1.1 Definitions: ___________ Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than=AD (i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or (ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level. (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider. (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. (5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot. (6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered. (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider. (8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider. (9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane. (10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin. (11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider. (12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider. ___________ For this engine discussion, I believe a rotary engine can be lumped into the class of reciprocating engines (item 6 above) but any turbine engine would not fit. Paul XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:55 AM PST US From: "John Short" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks Thanks for clearing that up, and all the good ideas. This list is the greatest, just goes to show you don't have to know everything (or much at all) to build a plane. All you have to do is ask and somebody out there will know the answer. Thanks guys John (Scratch building 701) Kaufman, Tx ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks > > Hi John, > Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is > inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the sides. > This is what puts a focus on > bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange > inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving > 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be easier > to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting indent > reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming > and flexure. > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > John Short wrote: >> Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called >> for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the >> beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the >> older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity? >> >> CREATIVE SIGNWORKS >> 1168 Byron Rd. >> Kaufman, Tx 75142 >> John & Mindy Short >> 972-962-7464 >> Cell: 214-240-3815 >> www.creative-sign-works.com > >> creativesigns@embarqmail.com > >> * >> * > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:22 AM PST US From: Grant Corriveau > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Moving rudder pedals forward I built the HDS with the longer cabin mod., moved my rudder pedals as far forward as possible (while maintaining differential braking), and set the seat pan as low as it would go yet clear the fuselage bottom. I also modified my brake cylinder installations to base them on the floor rather than on the rudder pedal arms as they originally were. The beauty of that system is it not only removes un-needed stress on the rudder pedal tubes, but it creates a better brake pedal geometry. When a foot is at full rudder (forward position), the top of the brake pedal rotates to a more vertical position, making differential braking easier to add, and taking less pedal movement towards the firewall. I didn't move the heel support and haven't noticed a problem with my size 12s ;-) ... your situation may vary .... Many HD/HDS builders have added some strengthening along the baggage shelf edge because that is a common place that was getting damaged from inadvertant loads being placed there .. (i.e. it's a natural place to grab while getting in and out...) For XL builders I think all these mods are incorporated into that aircraft...? Grant Corriveau C-GHTF 601HDS CAM100 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:41 AM PST US From: Grant Corriveau > Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs > I had always toyed with the idea of an ejector canopy & emergency > chute or whole > aircraft chute. The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding the canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I don't know of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all remained flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was enroute to Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with visor, and finished the trip in the "open cockpit." With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract the pilot. My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of "Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10 knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright vs. going over onto it's back. Grant Corriveau C-GHTF HDS CAM100 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% From: "Andrewlieser" > So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several other homebuilders boards for that matter. The most common piece of advice given to new builders seems to be measure twice cut once. A great piece of advice for this expensive hobby I think. Yet time after time I would see posts from new builders that would indicate that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere in the initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and time again and I definitely will measure twice and cut only once. Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks worth of building an excellent workbench and creating a very functional workspace. All my tools are in and I had inventoried every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd or 4th time to look over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first cut. I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they were perfect. Then after a couple of practice snips with my new shears I made the cut....perfection. So I did it again and again and again until I got what I thought was a perfect 27 degrees on my double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a difference in what my piece looked like and what the pictures in front of me showed on the next page. Panic set in. Not on the very first piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree points on the ends of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once! -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:57 AM PST US From: Robert Hansen > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? Larry you have this right on. It would be so unchristian of anybody not to accept an apoligy and I am very impressed with Helen for stepping up to the plate. No reason to leave here Helen. Rob 701 builder ----- Original Message ---- From: Larry H > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 2:09:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? To error is human. To admit it takes a really BIG PERSON. If she is more than willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take her apology and accept it? To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shallow. I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future. Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she saw how wild this had gotten out of hand so quickly. It takes a really great person to see the error of their ways and admit it. Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons of this. Helen, I for one wished you would remain a part of this group. I accept your apology. Does anyone else agree with me? Regards, Larry Hursh CH601XL (N601LL Reserved) Gig Giacona > wrote: Since this Helen woman's post in the Yahoo group that started all this got posted here I though it was fitting to share the post Be a better friend, newshound, and Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Moving rudder pedals forward From: "lwinger" > Great responses! Here was my solution. Because I wanted to retain the opportunity to re-rig the plane for a "normal sized" pilot, I remade my cabin floor and pedal bearing channel. I added 40mm to the front edge of the channel (195mm instead of 155mm) and added an additional 3/16" hole 33mm forward of the existing central pedal bearing holes to allow forward adjustment by 1.3 inches. Pictures attached. No change to the heel support. Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. This list really saved the day. -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair from scratch Control surfaces and wings complete. Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done Working on cabin floor www.mykitlog.com/lwinger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173687#173687 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_pedal_bearing_channel_383.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/pedal_bearing_in_forward_position_198. jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:22 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 09:46:39AM -0700, Grant Corriveau wrote: > With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario > where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem > in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens > a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. > My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude > changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract > the pilot. AMD's POH says the canopy will trail in the slightly open position, but the aircraft will remain controllable. It recommends slowing down and landing at the first opportunity, and not allowing oneself to get distracted from flying the airplane. > My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over > accident - especially in water. I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on land...but I do wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the canopy intact, or largely so. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "kmccune" > Amen to that! Kevin John75142 wrote: > Thanks for clearing that up, and all the good ideas. This list is the > greatest, just goes to show you don't have to know everything (or much at > all) to build a plane. All you have to do is ask and somebody out there will > know the answer. > > > Thanks guys > > John (Scratch building 701) > Kaufman, Tx > > > --- -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173694#173694 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:28 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs > Has anyone had an unlatching problem in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. Back in December Clive Richards sent out the attached report from the UK PFA magazine of an anonymous pilot testing his (pre-XL?) 601 with an open canopy. He attached a safety cord and intentionally unlatched his canopy. Quoting: "I commenced the test at 3500 ft and 80 knots cruise. I secured the safety cord to the cleat at my elbow with about 1 ft of slack and released the catch. The canopy rapidly popped up about 1 ft at the trailing edge as expected. I then slowly paid out the cord from the cleat and allowed the canopy to rise to a steady state. The canopy adopted a position where the base of the canopy settled to an angle of about 35 degrees to the airflow. Full lateral and pitch control could be maintained but forward speed dropped to about 60 knots and despite increase to full throttle descent was about 300 ft/min. An unexpected problem now presented itself. I was descending quickly and all the strength I could muster with my right arm was only just sufficient to pull the cord down and cleat it progressively. Possibly the slot effect at the front of the canopy open at the front increased the lift (and additionally the gas struts require a cord load of 15 lbs static). I finally, exhausted, got it down to about 6 inches and returned to." Craig again. I had a similar experience in an Evektor SportStar. This LSA resembles the 601XL: low wing, front-hinged bubble canopy. One difference is that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind the seats: www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm I was flying left-seat with my instructor. The canopy popped while we were in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was well over a foot. While the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I wrapped my arm around the cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could not close the canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evektor redesigned the latch the next year. I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the canopy as it did not decrease as I closed the gap. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:17 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs Hi Grant, Re the feathers VGs. My experience is that stall is reduced by approx 5 mph, not 10 knots. My HDS 912 now stalls somewhere between 40 and 45 mph IAS INDICATED. What the actual AS is I really don't know. Would that help on a water flop-in? Possibly. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:12 AM PST US From: "Micael W Wegner" > Subject: Zenith-List: 701 HI WOULD LIKE TO BUY A 701 STOL.... OUT RIGHT OR TRADE SOME FOR MY PA 22 20 THANKS MIKE... ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:00 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs I carry a small hatchet in the cabin just in case. It has also come in handy for digging the crud out out of tie-down padeyes and driving tie- down stakes. On Mar 30, 2008, at 1:04 PM, Jay Maynard wrote: > >> My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over >> accident - especially in water. > > I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on > land...but I do > wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the > canopy > intact, or largely so. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:01 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% Welcome Andrew, I'd recommend you go to the drawings and remake the part you mess up. As you become proficient at this, you'll find it's easier to not repeat mistakes by reading the drawings. You'll save a lot of money in the end and know a lot more of the build processes. This is only the first of many parts you'll wait for, so you might as well get some tools that will save you a lot of time and their cost ten times over. Don't feel badly because we all have had do-overs, ,,,,,, and in time, you could even become a scratch-builder. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Andrewlieser wrote: > > Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a difference in what my piece looked like and what the pictures in front of me showed on the next page. Panic set in. Not on the very first piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation! > of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree points on the ends of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once! > > -------- > Andrew Lieser > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684 > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:27 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs I have had one latch come loose in flight a few of times, never both. In all cases, it occurred on takeoff. When one latch lets loose, that side of the canopy lifts a couple of inches and makes a lot of noise but nothing too startling. On one occasion, I was able to re-latch the canopy after pulling the throttle to idle and slowing down, the other times I just went around the pattern and landed so I could close it. My problem was that I put some weatherstripping under the canopy to cut down on drafts. In very cold weather, the stripping got so stiff, it was hard to latch the canopy. A couple of times, I thought it was latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected this problem. On Mar 30, 2008, at 12:46 PM, Grant Corriveau wrote: > The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding > the canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I > don't know of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all > remained flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was > enroute to Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with > visor, and finished the trip in the "open cockpit." > > With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario > where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem > in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens > a few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. > My only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude > changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract > the pilot. > > My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over > accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of > "Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10 > knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright > vs. going over onto it's back. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:14 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an escape tool, e.g., http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging upside down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope you'll never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it. Meanwhile, I hope that Grant will post his before and after performance data after he installs his VGs. To reduce stall speed, Grant might also consider wing root fairings. Klaus Truemper reported an 8 kts (9mph) stall speed reduction (and other performance improvements) when he installed wing root fairings. http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/hidden_drag.pdf Terry At 02:07 PM 3/30/2008 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Grant, >Re the feathers VGs. My experience is that stall is reduced by approx 5 >mph, not 10 knots. My HDS 912 now stalls somewhere between 40 and 45 mph >IAS INDICATED. What the actual AS is I really don't know. Would that >help on a water flop-in? Possibly. >Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII >At 12:04 PM 3/30/2008 -0500, you wrote: >>AMD's POH says the canopy will trail in the slightly open position, but the >>aircraft will remain controllable. It recommends slowing down and landing at >>the first opportunity, and not allowing oneself to get distracted from >>flying the airplane. >> >> > My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over >> > accident - especially in water. >> >>I'm not sure the risk in water is substantially more than on land...but I do >>wonder how to get out of the aircraft if it's on its back with the canopy >>intact, or largely so. > > >Terry Phillips >ttp44~at~rkymtn.net >Corvallis MT >601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons >are done; working on the wings >http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Sabrina" > Hello Mr. Corriveau! Issue 1: Preventing accidental canopy release. My work around, independent canopy latch release rings. Issue 2: What to do once the canopy is released in flight? A. Use a cord to pull it down. (Is the pilot strong enough?) B. Incorporate small winglets on the rear of the canopy to push down on the rear of the canopy in combination with a lower front air seal mounted on the fuselage to prevent/disrupt a large rush of air under the canopy's leading edge upon release. The winglets are not strong enough to push down a canopy opened a few inches , but they do, combined with the lower air seal, keep the canopy down rattling against the latch. Not enough to relatch the canopy, but enough to be ignored until after landing. Remember, the struts actually help hold the canopy down so long as they are not extended very far. The FAA teased me once they saw the "new" canopy. They claimed that I now had a bi-plane. I reminded them that one set gives lift, and one set pushes. You would not think a few square inches of material combined with a little foam rubber would do much. The original intent was to hold the rear of the canopy down while it slid back 4" off its rails during ejection, allowing the air to pick up the front of the canopy and launch the canopy up and over the airframe. The winglets take the place of the factory handles and are also used to open and close the canopy. P.S. I had never thought to work through a nose over in water. Thank you. I will add canopy ejection to my ditching procedures. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173715#173715 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Tim Juhl" > RE: Ditching - A fixed gear aircraft will likely turn over upon contact with the water and then return to a nose down attitude while air seeps out of the wings and fuselage. While unlatching the canopy prior to ditching might be a good idea, I don't think I would jettison it. It will offer some protection to the occupants in the event of a controlled ditching. If unlatched, once the plane semi-rights itself it should be easy to open. If the airplane sinks rapidly the bubble of air within will lift open an unlatched canopy. The pilot of a piper cherokee that ditched in Lake Michigan had time to step out on the wing and use his cell phone to call 911. Unfortunately he didn't have a life jacket and perished after the plane sank into Lake Michigan, about 3 miles off Milwaukee. I saw underwater video of it showing it simply sitting upright on the bottom of the lake. Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173723#173723 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:39 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs I remember that incident. NTSB Identification: CHI05FA180. He went down in Lake Michigan just before midnight on April 25. A life jacket probably wouldn't have saved him but it would at least have made it possible to recover his body. If you go into that lake at that time of year, if you aren't rescued in about half an hour, you probably won't survive. That water is COLD. Even in the summer, it doesn't get very warm. If you don't have a life raft, your chances of surviving a ditching in any the great lakes is pretty slim if you don't get rescued quickly. On Mar 30, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Tim Juhl wrote: > > RE: Ditching - A fixed gear aircraft will likely turn over upon > contact with the water and then return to a nose down attitude while > air seeps out of the wings and fuselage. While unlatching the > canopy prior to ditching might be a good idea, I don't think I > would jettison it. It will offer some protection to the occupants > in the event of a controlled ditching. If unlatched, once the plane > semi-rights itself it should be easy to open. If the airplane sinks > rapidly the bubble of air within will lift open an unlatched canopy. > > The pilot of a piper cherokee that ditched in Lake Michigan had time > to step out on the wing and use his cell phone to call 911. > Unfortunately he didn't have a life jacket and perished after the > plane sank into Lake Michigan, about 3 miles off Milwaukee. I saw > underwater video of it showing it simply sitting upright on the > bottom of the lake. > > Tim > do not archive -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% From: "Ron Lendon" > Andrew, Larry has given you good advice, it seems the only kind he has, to try making the part yourself. Persistence and patience are what makes these dreams come true. I am building an XL but the methods are probably the same for the rudder skin. Here is a link the where I started with a rectangle of aluminum. Made the skin then trimmed it to the frame. http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&ca tegory=0&log=9949&row=463 Enjoy, -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173739#173739 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:25 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Tented or not? I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me how they see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that makes any difference. Larry Husky 601XL / O-200 **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid= aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:24 PM PST US From: Roy Szarafinski > Subject: Zenith-List: To whom it may concern For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless someone takes me under their wing. My cell is 5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th of april. For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my website: roysgarage.com Thank you Roy ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:31 PM PST US From: george may > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs "A couple of times, I thought it was latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected this problem."OK Bryan--how did you fix the problem? I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a couple of ti mes. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed to relatch it. Also probably the result of weatherstripping. >From a safety point of view I do not want to put and lockable devices insid e that can not be accessed from the outside in case of the need for externa l help. George May 601XL 912s _________________________________________________________________ Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference . Learn more. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:55 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: To whom it may concern Roy, I won't make it to SnF but I hope to be at Oshkosh. Will you be there too? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy Szarafinski Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:07 PM Subject: Zenith-List: To whom it may concern For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless someone takes me under their wing. My cell is 5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th of april. For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my website: roysgarage.com Thank you Roy ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Tim Juhl" > Bryan is absolutely correct. The stupid thing is that he ran out of gas about three miles short of land. A lesson to us all. I've spent a lot of years scuba diving in the great lakes and produced a number of video documentaries and two books on shipwrecks. A friend of mine survived the sinking of a freighter in a storm in 1966 and endured 38 hours of freezing temps on an open raft clad only in boxer shorts, a peacoat and lifejacket. He was the only survivor of a crew of 29, but he survived. I try to avoid crossing large expanses of water when the water temps are below 60 and when I do cross I pick my routes carefully, grab plenty of altitude, wear my lifejacket and have a communications plan. Those of us who live in Michigan have to deal with water when traveling any direction but south :-) Tim do not archive Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173748#173748 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:27 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tented or not? Larry, I'd be careful to buy a UV coated canopy in nothing darker than a light champagne color. The tinted canopy would be amplified by sunglasses that are more often than not polarized. This could become an uncomfortable situation in less than great lighting. Think internal canopy cover, retractable or a good full brim hat first. And GPS with autopilots aren't that good yet! Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com LHusky@aol.com wrote: > I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different > people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place > with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR > flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross > country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me how they > see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that makes any > difference. > > Larry Husky > 601XL / O-200 > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:49 PM PST US From: Leo Gates > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tented or not? My canopy is tented and is a blessing on a sunny day. Night flight is not an issue. Do not archive - covered several times before. -- Leo Gates N601Z - CH601hds TDO Rotax 912UL LHusky@aol.com wrote: > I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different > people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry place > with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a night VFR > flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot of cross > country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me how they > see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that makes any > difference. > > Larry Husky > 601XL / O-200 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:27 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tented or not? I don't have any problem flying at night with mine. It's not much different than driving at night in a car with standard tinted windshield. On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:01 PM, LHusky@aol.com wrote: > I am going to order a canopy soon and I am wondering what different > people think of tinted and non tinted canopies. I live in a dry > place with over 300 VFR days. I plan to fly mostly day VFR, but a > night VFR flight is not out of the question. I do plan to fly a lot > of cross country flights. Can anyone with a tinted canopy, tell me > how they see at night? I plan to order from Todd's Canopy's if that > makes any difference. > > Larry Husky > 601XL / O-200 > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:09 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs I removed the weatherstripping from between canopy frame and the cabin side rails that was making it difficult to close. Now it closes easily. I temporarily put some weather stripping on the side rails so that it butts up against the canopy. This seals out the drafts without requiring the strip to be squeezed in the gap. I am still looking for a more permanent solution. I am thinking of a weather strip that attaches to the inner side of canopy rail with a flap that sticks down and inward that will butt up against the cabin side rail. Air leaks out through the gap so the suction should help this arrangement seal up. On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:17 PM, george may wrote: > "A couple of times, I thought it was > latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected > this problem." > > > OK Bryan--how did you fix the problem? > > I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a > couple of times. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed > to relatch it. Also probably the result of weatherstripping. > >From a safety point of view I do not want to put and lockable > devices inside that can not be accessed from the outside in case of > the need for external help. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:01 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs Many yrs ago I was on base to 36 at OSH when a guy called in a mayday while over the lake, they gave him a straight in on 27 , I couldn't let that pass so I extended my base, climbing and turning toward the end of 27 so I might see him highlighted against the water. Picked him up about 10 seconds before he hit. boats were moving toward him before he even hit the water, all 4 folks got out safely. they had gone non-stop from New York in a Cessna of some variety and got within 400 yrds of the shore before the engine ran dry of gas. That's REALLY making an entrance. John Bryan is absolutely correct. The stupid thing is that he ran out of gas about three miles short of land. A lesson to us all. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:19 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs While getting my first look at a factory built XL, the instructor's first words about the craft were that the latch is a poor design and problematic. The discussion of the latch on this list tend to confirm this as a problem. When I get to that point in my build, I will certainly look into this and possibly find a simple and reliable solution. I recall one aircraft that I have flown where you reach in through the window vent to get access to the internal latch. (Kind of like an old MG :) ) Jim Grant Corriveau wrote: >> >> I had always toyed with the idea of an ejector canopy & emergency >> chute or whole >> >> aircraft chute. >> > > The original "flip-flop" 601 canopy had several cases of shedding the > canopy in flight due to the hinge/latch combo mechanism. I don't know > of any that damaged the tail plane, and the aircraft all remained > flyable as far as I know. In one case, the pilot was enroute to > Oshkosh. He landed, bought a motorcycle helmet with visor, and > finished the trip in the "open cockpit." > > With a forward-hinged canopy I find it hard to imagine a scenario > where it would shed in flight. Has anyone had an unlatching problem > in flight and can tell us how the canopy reacts? I imagine it opens a > few inches and simply floats at that position in the slip-stream. My > only concern would be how it might move with power and attitude > changes - that it might get into a fugoid of some sort and distract > the pilot. > > My only serious concern with this canopy is in case of a nose-over > accident - especially in water. I'm going to install a set of > "Feathers" VGs which reportedly reduces landing speeds by about 10 > knots. That just might be the difference between staying upright vs. > going over onto it's back. > > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF HDS > CAM100 > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:45 PM PST US From: george may > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy issues and VGs Bryan Thanks for the reply--been looking at some similar fixes myself. Will let y ou know if they are successful George may do not archive From: bryanmmartin@comcast.netTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject : Re: Zen ith-List: Canopy issues and VGsDate: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:07:32 -0400I remov ed the weatherstripping from between canopy frame and the cabin side rails that was making it difficult to close. Now it closes easily. I temporarily put some weather stripping on the side rails so that it butts up against th e canopy. This seals out the drafts without requiring the strip to be sque ezed in the gap. I am still looking for a more permanent solution. I am thi nking of a weather strip that attaches to the inner side of canopy rail wit h a flap that sticks down and inward that will butt up against the cabin si de rail. Air leaks out through the gap so the suction should help this arra ngement seal up. On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:17 PM, george may wrote: "A couple of times, I thought it was latched but one side came loose after takeoff. I have since corrected this problem."OK Bryan--how did you fix the problem? I also had one latched side of the canopy unlatch on takeoff a couple of times. Just slowed down ,stayed in the pattern and landed to rela tch it. Also probably the result of weatherstripping.>From a safety point o f view I do not want to put and lockable devices inside that can not be acc essed from the outside in case of the need for external help. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. _________________________________________________________________ Test your Star IQ http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:28 PM PST US From: Michael Gross > Subject: Zenith-List: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE Listers, Hard to believe it, but I will be selling my CH-701 I completed, test flew, and have been flying since Dec 2006. I have about 70 hours on it (probabl y more like 75, but I need to log my last couple of flights). I have stand ard VFR instrumentation (airspeed, A/I, D/G, Alt, elect Turn and bank, and VSI) along with compass, standard rotax engine and fuel guages, elect. trim , nav/strobes, and elt. I have a panel mount radio and transponder. Plane is ready for paint by the new owner. I am selling to start my new project: a cozy mk IV. There are a couple of pics also on my ad in barnstormers. If anyone is interested please contac t me off list. Do Not Archive Mike Gross gross_michael@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ How well do you know your celebrity gossip? http://originals.msn.com/thebigdebate?ocid=T002MSN03N0707A ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:44 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% Sometimes it helps to make a "part" out of paper or thin cardboard, fit it and than you'll have a true visual picture of what it should look like. Mirror images can be very confusing at times, too. Especially for those of us conceptually challenged! Good Luck. Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. peters, MO So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several other homebuilders boards for that matter. The most common piece of advice given to new builders seems to be measure twice cut once. A great piece of advice for this expensive hobby I think. Yet time after time I would see posts from new builders that would indicate that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere in the initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and time again and I definitely will measure twice and cut only once. Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks worth of building an excellent workbench and creating a very functional workspace. All my tools are in and I had inventoried every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd or 4th time to look over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first cut. I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they were perfect. Then after a couple of practice snips with my new shears I made the cut....perfection. So I did it again and again and again until I got what I thought was a perfect 27 degrees on my double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a difference in what my piece looked like and what the pictures in front of me showed on the next page. Panic set in. Not on the very first piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation! of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree points on the ends of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by the end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for each piece....READ twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once! -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173684#173684 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:47 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% And mark everything with name orientation rib number etc. And keep some "eraser" (alcohol etc) handy to removed "typos". I only mention this because I'm terrible about it. But everything goes smoother with proper markings. Don't ask how I know this, the answer would take way too long! Ron 601XL wings do not archive On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Terry Turnquist wrote: > Sometimes it helps to make a "part" out of paper or thin cardboard, > fit it and than > you'll have a true visual picture of what it should look like. > Mirror images can be very confusing at times, too. Especially for > those of us conceptually challenged! > Good Luck. > > Terry Turnquist > 601XL-Plans > St. peters, MO > > Andrewlieser > wrote: > > So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several > other homebuilders boards for that matter. The most common piece of > advice given to new builders seems to be measure twice cut once. A > great piece of advice for this expensive hobby I think. Yet time > after time I would see posts from new builders that would indicate > that they were not paying attention and cut wrong somewhere in the > initial stages of their project. I would read these and think that > will never happen to me because I have read these posts time and > time again and I definitely will measure twice and cut only once. > Well I started work on my rudder kit this weekend after 2 weeks > worth of building an excellent workbench and creating a very > functional workspace. All my tools are in and I had inventoried > every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd or 4th time to look > over them yet again and decided it was time to make the first cut. > I marked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to > the corner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they > were perfect. Then after a couple of practice snips with my new > shears I made the cut....perfection. So I did it again and again > and again until I got what I thought was a perfect 27 degrees on my > double angle. Sitting back and admiring my work I noticed a > difference in what my piece looked like and what the > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts From: "PatrickW" > Fitting the fuselage side skins... Everything appears to fit except for the pre-cut slots in the fuselage side skins (where the wings insert into the center spar). Either the center spar is at an incorrect angle, or the slot in the side skins are at the wrong angle. The rest of the holes in the skins look dead-on, and the longerons are level. It's off by quite a bit. Pictures here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/XLSideSkins I measure the angle between the center spar and the floor at 77 degrees, and the angle between the center spar and the upper longerons is 81 degrees. Does that match what you guys have...? Anybody else ran into anything like this...? Thanks, Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173802#173802 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:27 PM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Crank Update Good evening, I have just updated the Crankshaft status page on the web site and also added the ANS report at the bottom of the page. It can be viewed at _www.aeroliteproducts.com/Crankshaft_Status.php_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/Crankshaft_Status.php) . Jeff _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com) 502-644-8123 **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid= aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:25 PM PST US From: "Micael W Wegner" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE ID LIKE TO BUY IT....MIKE WEGNER OSCEOLA WI.... 715 294 4296 CALL OR WRITE BACK TO ME ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Gross To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: Zenith-List: ZENITH 701 FOR SALE Listers, Hard to believe it, but I will be selling my CH-701 I completed, test flew, and have been flying since Dec 2006. I have about 70 hours on it (probably more like 75, but I need to log my last couple of flights). I have standard VFR instrumentation (airspeed, A/I, D/G, Alt, elect Turn and bank, and VSI) along with compass, standard rotax engine and fuel guages, elect. trim, nav/strobes, and elt. I have a panel mount radio and transponder. Plane is ready for paint by the new owner. I am selling to start my new project: a cozy mk IV. There are a couple of pics also on my ad in barnstormers. If anyone is interested please contact me off list. Do Not Archive Mike Gross gross_michael@hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- How well do you know your celebrity gossip? Talk celebrity smackdowns here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 3/29/2008 5:02 PM ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% From: "Andrewlieser" > Thanks to everyone! I do intend to eventually make some parts myself and also think that it would help my understanding of the part but I decided to go with the rudder as a kit as kind of a baby step. The cardboard is a great idea, I have a lot of that laying around to. I will replace the alcohol I have around with the kind that I can use as an eraser (probably a better idea anyway). I appreciate all of the responses with advice both as posts and personal messages. I tried not to let it bug me, the fact that it was the very first part, but it was a little discouraging initially. Hearing that others have made similar mistakes is very comforting though. I will be back in the saddle again in the middle of this week hopefully with better result and will post some pictures of the miscut pieces on my website to help others avoid the same mistake. All these responses only solidify in my mind that I chose the right project with a great network of experienced builders that I WILL need advice from to finish my aircraft! Thanks again to everyone! Andrew Lieser 601XL Builder (and aluminum scrap collecter) :) -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173810#173810 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:28 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: To whom it may concern Roy, you are welcome to bring it to the Zenith BBQ on Thursday evening. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- For those who expressed interest in my work I'll be at Sun and Fun for the week. For your amusement and pleasure, I'll bring 2 cases, one together and one apart and a dual plug head. It will have to be a tailgate thing since I'm not an exhibitor, unless someone takes me under their wing. My cell is 5176102307 I'll know the campsite location on the 7th of april. For those folks that are unaware and curious, see my website: roysgarage.com Thank you Roy ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts From: "sonar1@cox.net" > I thought it was just me. Mine from the complete kit didn't fit. The cutout was at 81.9 degrees instead of 81. I called Caleb at the factory and he said that it was close enough.. I ended up redoing both side skins to the plans. Is everyone else just forcing the center spar to fit?? do not archive Fred Sanford Ca. N9601 99% Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173823#173823 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL: Center Spar vs Side Skin Cutouts From: "DaveG601XL" Patrick, So are you saying that if you measure the angle between the side skin cutout and the top edge that it is not 81 degrees?? My pre-cut side skin was correct at 81 degrees (purchased 02/07). I know that ZAC has mis-cut or mis-drilled some stuff, but only because of other poster's comments. In my personal case, everything from ZAC seems to have been made correctly. In cases where I found problems similar to yours, it ended up that I was the one at fault. After I reviewed all drawing characteristics, I could point to where I screwed up and was glad to have had something, like a pre-cut, to point out my mistake. If I was a scratch builder, I would have scrapped out a lot more aluminum than I did as a kit builder. Triple check your measurements and angles to the drawing on both your spar placement and the pre-cut skin. Pay particular attention to the cabin floor angle. This caused me problems. My biggest problem with ZAC was where they had made changes to the product, incorporated them on my hardware, but did not update the drawing. This caused many a head scratch until I was able to get a hold of ZAC and they told me of the change. Good luck on a resolution, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, all major assemblies complete. Have run the engine and am starting final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173905#173905 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Looking for a 701 amphib From: "Gig Giacona" Your best bet might be to find a 701 and convert it. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173907#173907 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "ashontz" What if both of your arms are broken? [quote="Terry Phillips"]One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an escape tool, e.g., http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm (http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm) mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging upside down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope you'll never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it. Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ (http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/) > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173909#173909 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "ashontz" So do the beads really need to be along the edge, or would an X pattern in the center of the large panel be sufficient, kind of like on the side of a WWII Jeep fuel can? larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi John, > Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is > inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the > sides. This is what puts a focus on > bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange > inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving > 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be > easier to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting > indent reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming > and flexure. > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > John Short wrote: > > > Currently working on my tanks for the 701 and noticed the beads called > > for around the exterior perimeter. Does anyone know the purpose of the > > beads. I don't have immediate access to a bead roller and noticed the > > older tanks did not have this. Are they a necessity? > > > > > > > > CREATIVE SIGNWORKS > > 1168 Byron Rd. > > Kaufman, Tx 75142 > > John & Mindy Short > > 972-962-7464 > > Cell: 214-240-3815 > > www.creative-sign-works.com > > creativesigns@embarqmail.com > > * > > * > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173911#173911 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Elevator Limits (Cessna 172) From: "ashontz" I've rented various 152s of which some of them had 40 degrees of flap and others were only 30 degrees. Neither were aerobats or anything. I figured it was just some design change that had occurred from one year to the next. Tim Juhl wrote: > The increase in gross weight was one of the reasons cited. Another was the problem some pilots experienced if they initiated a go-around with full flaps extended. There was also the long standing concern about full flaps blanking the tail in a forward slip although I've intentionally tried to make that happen with no success. > > One of the things that surprised me was in checking aileron control movement was that you used to be able to turn the wheel 90 to either side while on the 1985 model you were hitting the stops at maybe 50. Now - I will admit I did not take a protractor and measure actual aileron deflections so maybe the change wasn't that extreme. Anyone who has flown a very early 172 and a 1985 or later model knows that they are two very different machines. > > Tim > do not archive -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173914#173914 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:09 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge the skin hinge as I call it is a little stiffer, but mostly you have to hold the stick in the direction you want to turn or it flexes back to neutral. The hinge is like any other plane, turn and the plane will continue to turn. The skin hingless system has a neutral deflection memory. Thats it. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Ianrat >Sent: Mar 31, 2008 6:46 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge > > >In the 601 XL kit I have the option to use the original aileron hinge or the newer piano hinge. > >Can any one tell the different qualities of both systems. I have conflicting reports on both. One says the piano hinge is lighter to fly with. > >Thank you > > >Ianrat > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173839#173839 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:25 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Fixed Canard Wing Those 182's probably had the Peterson Performance parts, or were sold as "Wrens" The total package is sold today "turn-key" style as the Peterson Katmai. Link: http://www.katmai-260se.com/katmai.html With the Peterson mods, those canards are movable. DO NOT ARCHIVE On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:07 AM, George Race wrote: > I noticed today on the Zenith Screen Saver there were a pair of 701's > shown that have a Fixed Canard Wing near the front of the cowling. > Having experienced the difference a couple of small Canard Wings has made > on a local 182, gentler handling during stalls and better low landing speed > handling, I wonder if any of that would apply to the 701 as well. > > Has anyone on the list had any experience with this concept in the 701? > If so what was learned about handling changes if any? > > George > CH701 Kit (Almost Done) > N73EX (Reserved) > > * > > * > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:47 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks Hi Andy, If you were to retain the turned-out edge-weld, then the bead parallel with the weld would be an advantage. This would keep stresses from concentrating at the center of each straight section edge weld. If the welds were done flange in, there is little advantage to having more than long diagonal dimples to constrain drumming. To X across isn't wise either as drumming can focus stress at the center of the X and make cracking more likely at center of X. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ashontz wrote: > > So do the beads really need to be along the edge, or would an X pattern in the center of the large panel be sufficient, kind of like on the side of a WWII Jeep fuel can? > > > larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > >> Hi John, >> Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is >> inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the >> sides. This is what puts a focus on >> bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange >> inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving >> 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be >> easier to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting >> indent reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming >> and flexure. >> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif >> >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >> >> John Short wrote: >> ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:57 AM PST US From: John Warren Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF Hi all, The Corvair powered 701 will fly into Sun n fun for display. I plan on arriving on Monday, weather permitting, and remain for the entire show. Due to the number of aircraft Zenith will be displaying the 701 will be out on the experimental flightline. Stop in and ask at the Zenith display as they will know where I will be parked. I will be out under the wing from about 9 am until the flightline is closed for the airshow. Probably some in the evening too. I look forward to seeing all that are interested and answering your questions. -Gus www.flywithgus.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:05 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge Not true, if done right it is not any more aerodynamic than hingeless. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: William Dominguez >Sent: Mar 31, 2008 10:18 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Hinge or not to Hinge > >The hingeless are better aerodinamically speaking, slightly lighter in weight and simpler to assemble. I chose the piano hinge option mostly because I can remove the aileron without removing any rivets - removing the ailerons and flaps simplify a lot of issues with trailering and storing the plane in its trailer - but this is something most people won't need to do. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL plans >Miami Florida >http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom > > >In the 601 XL kit I have the option to use the original aileron hinge or the newer piano hinge. > >Can any one tell the different qualities of both systems. I have conflicting reports on both. One says the piano hinge is lighter to fly with. > >Thank you > > >Ianrat > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173839#173839 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Gig Giacona" Well then you're screwed but only slightly more screwed than if you are stuck in your airplane sitting right-side up in your hanger with the canopy closed and with both arms broken. ashontz wrote: > What if both of your arms are broken? > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173929#173929 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "ashontz" Thanks. I'm doing flange out edge welds. I welded the long flange so far. I guess I'll go back and try to put a bead along the edge. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi Andy, > If you were to retain the turned-out edge-weld, then the bead parallel > with the weld would be an advantage. This would keep stresses from > concentrating > at the center of each straight section edge weld. If the welds were > done flange in, there is little advantage to having more than long > diagonal dimples to > constrain drumming. To X across isn't wise either as drumming can focus > stress at the center of the X and make cracking more likely at center of X. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > So do the beads really need to be along the edge, or would an X pattern in the center of the large panel be sufficient, kind of like on the side of a WWII Jeep fuel can? > > > > > > larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > > > > > Hi John, > > > Tanks are usually welded at a mating raw edge. This type of weld is > > > inclined to be weakest when fuel pushes at the end and bulges the > > > sides. This is what puts a focus on > > > bending and stress at the edge weld. If you turn the ends around flange > > > inward and place them inside the wrap portion of the tank, leaving > > > 3/16-inch radius out, a weld placed at the wrapper and bend will be > > > easier to make and have more weld area to resist bending. Putting > > > indent reinforcement is always good for large areas to eliminate drumming > > > and flexure. > > > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/tankbends.gif > > > > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > > > > John Short wrote: > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173928#173928 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "ashontz" I'm just thinkin' I like the sound of some sort of door a lot better than a bubble canopy. A few months ago I had a bad back and could hardly get out of my car, I can't imagine trying to fumble around with two broken arms trying to work a swing stick to break the canopy. Anybody ever watch World Most Shocking Videos? How about that guy trying to get out of the flaming dirt-track race buggy. That didn't look like too much fun, and his problem was his seatbelt was jammed or something like that. Gig Giacona wrote: > Well then you're screwed but only slightly more screwed than if you are stuck in your airplane sitting right-side up in your hanger with the canopy closed and with both arms broken. > > > > > > ashontz wrote: > > What if both of your arms are broken? > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173931#173931 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: To Hinge or not to Hinge From: "Gig Giacona" The folks that sell gap seals will be surprised to hear that. The stopping of airflow through the hinge is what those things do. amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: > Not true, if done right it is not any more aerodynamic than hingeless. > > Juan > > -- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173932#173932 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cessna1_164.gif ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:59 AM PST US From: "Bob McArdle" Subject: Zenith-List: couple of questions 1-How does wiring from the rear of the fuselage get to the panel?(Under the torque tube-?) 2-What do you use to attach the brake lines to the gear leg? 3-Do the brake lines run under the bottom longerons and then enter the fuselage near the pedals or go up the gear leg and into the fuselage then where? I have a long way to go. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Gig Giacona" Ashontz, What if both of your legs are broken? What if a CH47 doesn't see you on the ramp and lands on top of you? What if gravity were to suddenly reverse itself and you were pushed into the deep reaches if interplanetary space? I'm really beginning to think that the 601 might not be the plane for you. I've not noticed one feature of the aircraft you like. Not that I can think of any aircraft available at any price that would be as safe as you seem to require. ashontz wrote: > I'm just thinkin' I like the sound of some sort of door a lot better than a bubble canopy. A few months ago I had a bad back and could hardly get out of my car, I can't imagine trying to fumble around with two broken arms trying to work a swing stick to break the canopy. > > Anybody ever watch World Most Shocking Videos? How about that guy trying to get out of the flaming dirt-track race buggy. That didn't look like too much fun, and his problem was his seatbelt was jammed or something like that. > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > Well then you're screwed but only slightly more screwed than if you are stuck in your airplane sitting right-side up in your hanger with the canopy closed and with both arms broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > ashontz wrote: > > > What if both of your arms are broken? > > > > > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173933#173933 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "ashontz" Gig, you're right, the CH601XL isn't the plane for me, the AS601XL-HD is the plane for me. :) That's the beauty of homebuilding. Gig Giacona wrote: > Ashontz, > > What if both of your legs are broken? What if a CH47 doesn't see you on the ramp and lands on top of you? What if gravity were to suddenly reverse itself and you were pushed into the deep reaches if interplanetary space? > > I'm really beginning to think that the 601 might not be the plane for you. I've not noticed one feature of the aircraft you like. Not that I can think of any aircraft available at any price that would be as safe as you seem to require. > > > > ashontz wrote: > > I'm just thinkin' I like the sound of some sort of door a lot better than a bubble canopy. A few months ago I had a bad back and could hardly get out of my car, I can't imagine trying to fumble around with two broken arms trying to work a swing stick to break the canopy. > > > > Anybody ever watch World Most Shocking Videos? How about that guy trying to get out of the flaming dirt-track race buggy. That didn't look like too much fun, and his problem was his seatbelt was jammed or something like that. > > > > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > > Well then you're screwed but only slightly more screwed than if you are stuck in your airplane sitting right-side up in your hanger with the canopy closed and with both arms broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > What if both of your arms are broken? > > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173936#173936 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: In-flight breakup From: japhillipsga@aol.com Flying a XL would require a "world class" contortionist for such. Afraid for us we have to land first. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: steve Sent: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:17 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: In-flight breakup Well I can say that I did this "manuver" in my Cessna 172 on a long X country once.? Cessna has a trim wheel and after a minor adjustment, the aircraft flew very well by its ownself. That flight was one of my most memorable. Now married I am not allowed to go on X countries. S...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Johnson Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: In-flight breakup I recently came across this NTSB report of a crash of a certified aircraft which appears to have lost a wing in flight, probably as a result of the pilot attempting unapproved maneuvers. Has anyone tried this in a 601? ? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X18632&key=1 ? Dave Johnson ? CH601XL ? PLEASE do not archive! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:09 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said something not factual. Nobody on this list has ever done that before! Lightning is shooting up from the ground, and great boulders are falling from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each other in the streets! (news and pictures at 11: 00) Quick, gather the villagers with torches, and storm the castle! Ev en if she doesn't live there, storm the castle anyway! Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must mill around, shout an d scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens. Those of us, t hat is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or giving the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color Scotchbrite. Where will it all end?? Oh, the humanity! (Sorry guys, I couldn't re sist.) Helen, bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, and it s hould be over and done with. Shall we continue building, now?=0A =0APaul Rodriguez=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A ----- Original Message -- --- =0A From: Larry H =0A To: ze nith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent : Saturday, March 29, 2008 3:09 PM=0A Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [S port_Aircraft] Re: AMD?=0A=0A=0A To error is human. To admi t it takes a really BIG PERSON. If she is more than willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take her ap ology and accept it? To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shal low. I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future. Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she sa w how wild this had gotten out of hand so quickly. It takes a really great person to see the error of their ways and admit it. Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons of this. Helen, I for one wish ed you would remain a part of this group. I accept your apology. Doe s anyone else agree with me? =0A=0A Regards, =0A=0A Larr y Hursh=0A CH601XL (N601LL Reserved)=0A=0A Gig Giacona wrote:=0A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" =0A=0A Since this Helen woman's post in th e Yahoo group that started all this got posted here I though it was fi tting to share the post =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------=0A Be a better friend, newshound, and =0A ======================= = --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com ======================= ======================= ======================= =====0A=0A ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:41 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: deburring tool Actually, the key to using a vixon (vixen?) file is to hone the teeth edges against a smooth surface before using, so that there are flats a t the bottom of the teeth, it should look like this side view: \_\-\_\ -\_\-\_\. Consider the lines all connected, and you get the idea. It can be done with valve grinding compound on a sheet of glass. The one I bought from Airparts doesn't leave longitudinal scratches.=0A =0APaul Rodriguez=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: n8 5ae =0A To: zenith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 3:3 0 PM=0A Subject: Zenith-List: Re: deburring tool=0A=0A=0A 85ae@yahoo.com>>=0A=0A I took an old file, broke it in half and then using the grinder ground all=0A corners round. I Attached a handle to it, and a couple fast passes along =0A a row of drilled holes and they are all deburred at once. The key is NO=0A sharp ed ges, as you don't want scratches. It does produce scuffs=0A betwee n the holes. But these go away when you paint prep it anyway.=0A =0A On sheet you only need take off what sticks up. Using pretty much any =0A machinist deburring tool is pretty much a guarantee that you removed=0A metal and formed a small countersunk edge. Which yo u don't really =0A want.=0A=0A Tediously deburring hole by hole is a big waste of time in my opinion.=0A You can do an entire wing skin in a couple minutes with a modified=0A file, with in my opinion less damage from over beveling edges. =0A=0A Jeff =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173307#173307=0A=0A=0A ======================= ======================= igator?Zenith-List ======================= ======================= ======================= -> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% WELCOME! Welcome to the Brotherhood of the Terminally Confused. K now this, Grasshopper, you will build at least two airplanes, one of w hich will go to the airport, the others to the recycling center, a pie ce at a time. And you will learn the Zen arts of serene patience, and the ability to withhold thine screams of frustration, and the ability to bandage your fingertips while saying, "I meant to do that".=0A =0APaul Rodriguez=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: Andrewlieser =0A To: zenith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:48 AM=0A Subject: Zenith-L ist: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!%=0A=0A=0A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" >=0A=0A So I've been reading this board for over a year now and several other homebuilders boards for t hat matter. The most common piece of advice given to new builders see ms to be measure twice cut once. A great piece of advice for this exp ensive hobby I think. Yet time after time I would see posts from new builders that would indicate that they were not paying attention and c ut wrong somewhere in the initial stages of their project. I would re ad these and think that will never happen to me because I have read th ese posts time and time again and I definitely will measure twice and cut only once.=0A Well I started work on my rudder kit this weeken d after 2 weeks worth of building an excellent workbench and creating a very functional workspace. All my tools are in and I had inventorie d every piece. I opened the plans for the 3rd or 4th time to look ove r them yet again and decided it was time to make the first cut. I mar ked off my 10mm on the double angle and drew the lines down to the cor ner of each piece. I measured them twice and made sure they were perf ect. Then after a couple of practice snips with my new shears I made the cut....perfection. So I did it again and again and again until I got what I thought was a perfect 27 degrees on my double angle. Sitti ng back and admiring my work I noticed a difference in what my piece l ooked like and what the pictures in front of me showed on the next pag e. Panic set in. Not on the very first piece I thought so I checked my piece again and sure enough WRONG. My measurements were perfect my cuts perfect my interpretation!=0A of what I read WRONG. I now have 2 pieces of scrap angle fashioned into 27 degree points on the e nds of each. I had made the cut on both sides of the double angle so it now looks like a freakin spear. But the lessoned has been learned and I will reorder my parts on monday from Zenith and start fresh by t he end of this week. My advice to new builders like myself is for eac h piece....READ twice..ENVISION twice..Measure twice..CUT once!=0A =0A --------=0A Andrew Lieser=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A R ead this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/v iewtopic.php?p=173684#173684=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ======================= -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions There are many approaches to the routing of the wiring and brake lines. For the wires I have seen conduit in the center console and also wiring under both top longerons. With wires under the longerons one question is how to get the wires past 6B16-3 (left and right), the sloping braces at the outside of the seatbacks. Some route the wires around these parts in flexible conduit while others drill holes in the parts. One solution for the brake lines is to enclose the channel on the bottom of the plane. Ed Moody posted a series of photos of this solution last September. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McArdle Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 12:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: couple of questions 1-How does wiring from the rear of the fuselage get to the panel?(Under the torque tube-?) 2-What do you use to attach the brake lines to the gear leg? 3-Do the brake lines run under the bottom longerons and then enter the fuselage near the pedals or go up the gear leg and into the fuselage then where? I have a long way to go. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: couple of questions From: "DaveG601XL" You asked some good questions that have been asked before. Search the archives where there has been a lot of discussion on each of the topics. I will give you my opinion and what I did. I am not flying yet so it is all still theory and subject to change given real world results. 1. You can get wiring from the rear to the panel via three routes. Left armrail, right armrail and through the middle spar opening and center console. I used all three. I kept power items in the center and left the armrails for antennas. I attached a picture of the stuff going through the center spar. 2. I used adel clamps screwed to the rear of the gear leg. The ZAC demo plane used stick-on tabs and some of these have lifted off. I asked ZAC about routing out a channel down the rear of the gear leg to imbed the bake line and they advised against this. See picture attached for what I did. 3. Brake line routing. ZAC says to route through the middle spar opening and out the side skins at the gear leg. I did not think I would have enough room there so I ran them below the cockpit floor and back along the fuselage bottom. Now that I have done this, I don't like the looks of it and may change back. Again, see picture attached. Good luck on your project, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, all major assemblies complete. Have run the engine and am starting final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173952#173952 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuselage_251_200.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuselage_328_468.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuselage_250_103.jpg ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:33 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions I bundled some of the wires from the rear of the plane (and the brake lines) along the sides of the tunnel at about the same level as the torque tube. That location keeps the bundles form contacting the stick as it moves the torque tube. I also routed some of the wires and antenna cables in a piece of plastic tubing installed in the channel under the canopy side rails. I drilled and tapped some holes along the rear of the gear legs and attached the lines to the gear lets with plastic cable clamp and screws. My brake lines enter the fuselage above the lower longerons near the rear of the gear legs. Bob McArdle wrote: > 1-How does wiring from the rear of the fuselage get to the panel?(Under > the torque tube-?) 2-What do you use to attach the brake lines to the > gear leg? 3-Do the brake lines run under the bottom longerons and then > enter the fuselage near the pedals or go up the gear leg and into the > fuselage then where? I have a long way to go. > >-- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:25 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Measure twice cut twice........ awgh *#!% And if anybody ever steals your plane and obliterates the identifying markings, the police will still be able to trace ownership by all the DNA samples you left in various parts of the structure. ;) paulrod36@msn.com wrote: > WELCOME! Welcome to the Brotherhood of the Terminally Confused. > Know this, Grasshopper, you will build at least two airplanes, one of > which will go to the airport, the others to the recycling center, a > piece at a time. And you will learn the Zen arts of serene patience, > and the ability to withhold thine screams of frustration, and the > ability to bandage your fingertips while saying, "I meant to do that". > > Paul Rodriguez -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:45 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions Most of the wiring answers are pretty consistent, run the wires under the l ongerons and through the center console. My brakes were also run through th e cener consloe and then parallel to the spar exiting the side skin just be hind the gear. I used a 1/4 inch round nose router bit and cut a slot in th e rear side of the gear. The brake line sits in this grove and is clamped i n place with small straps screwed into the gear sides George May 601XL 912s From: rmacpunk@netzero.netTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Zenith-List : couple of questionsDate: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:47:54 -0400 1-How does wiring from the rear of the fuselage get to the panel?(Under the torque tube-?) 2-What do you use to attach the brake lines to the gear leg ? 3-Do the brake lines run under the bottom longerons and then enter the fu selage near the pedals or go up the gear leg and into the fuselage then whe re? I have a long way to go. _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_realtime_042008 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: EAA videos From: thesumak@aol.com Forgive me if this is old news, but I just watched three short videos on the EAA site that I had not seen before.=C2- The topics ar e drilling out a pulled rivet, Clecos 101, and pulling rivets in tight spots.=C2- I thought the last one was the most useful.=C2- If interested, from the EA A home page click on the multimedia tab.=C2- From there, select videos.=C2- There is a list of the most recent videos and if you select =9Cdrilling out a rivet=9D you will be linked to all three. =C2- Cheers, Bill 601xl =C2- Do not archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:16 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:52 PM PST US From: "Dan" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions They are called Chicago screws, I don't know why, Dan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:01 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs Gosh, Andy, that'd really be a tough break, so to speak. I guess that you just stick your head between your legs, grab the hammer with your teeth, bash open the cockpit, chew off the seatbelt and shoulder belts, and then propel yourself with your feet to the nearest shore. Oh wait, I forgot about the fire! Before you do all that, you use your teeth to grab the fire extinguisher, set it between your knees, aim it with your knees at the fire, then use your teeth to squeeze the trigger until you get the fire out. Of course, these maneuvers aren't for wimps. I recommend that you engage in regular yoga practice to loosen up. The most appropriate pose is shown here: http://www.geocities.com/donrosenberger/faculty/injurytype.jpg Good luck. Terry At 09:38 AM 3/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: >What if both of your arms are broken? > >[quote="Terry Phillips"]One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an >escape tool, e.g., > > http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm (http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm) > > mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging > upside down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope > you'll never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it. > > >-------- >Andy Shontz >CH601XL - Corvair do not archive Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "Tim Juhl" RE: Ditching & escape - I think if you wanted out bad enough you would find a way, broken arms or not - I would think a few good kicks would do the trick. This discussion has got me thinking so when I get to the canopy installation part I'll have to take a close look at how easy it is to release the canopy when there is pressure on it. Most of my flying has been in high wing aircraft which means the cabin will be underwater when the plane comes to rest. For that reason, my plan was to unlatch the doors in flight and when they spring open push the handle to the latched position so there is a bar keeping them from closing. In a high wing you have to let the cabin fill with water before you'll be able to get the doors open and I'd rather have the cabin fill quickly rather than when the airplane has started on it's way to the bottom. I may be wrong but I would think that the XL might be easier to get out of after a ditching than my C182 would have been. Frank is certainly correct inasmuch as you're only getting out with whatever you have tied to you. In addition to the lifejacket I have a bag with a strobe, flares, dye, etc. The other thing to think about is that calling mayday on 121.5 might not do much good in many areas. For example, when I cross the northern part of Lake Michigan I prefer the tower frequency at Traverse City. They have a direct line to the USCG chopper base on the field. Other than that, I usually prefer approach or center radar over 121.5. I think there is a better chance that someone will be listening. In my 33 years of flying I have flown over some pretty remote and / or inhospitable country and wide expanses of water... all single engine. I've given a lot of thought to survival issues and even took a summer and winter survival course put on by some guys associated with USAF pararescue..... The main thing is you've got to have a plan. Waiting until things go bad is a recipe for disaster. Sorry to drag this out so much. Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173989#173989 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:29 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs What if ? What if you didnt have legs or arms and went swimming in the ocean. Would they call you "Bob"??? If a woman pilot had only one leg, what would you think her name is ?? Ilean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs > > > Ashontz, > > What if both of your legs are broken? What if a CH47 doesn't see you on > the ramp and lands on top of you? What if gravity were to suddenly reverse > itself and you were pushed into the deep reaches if interplanetary space? > > I'm really beginning to think that the 601 might not be the plane for you. > I've not noticed one feature of the aircraft you like. Not that I can > think of any aircraft available at any price that would be as safe as you > seem to require. > > > ashontz wrote: >> I'm just thinkin' I like the sound of some sort of door a lot better than >> a bubble canopy. A few months ago I had a bad back and could hardly get >> out of my car, I can't imagine trying to fumble around with two broken >> arms trying to work a swing stick to break the canopy. >> >> Anybody ever watch World Most Shocking Videos? How about that guy trying >> to get out of the flaming dirt-track race buggy. That didn't look like >> too much fun, and his problem was his seatbelt was jammed or something >> like that. >> >> >> Gig Giacona wrote: >> > Well then you're screwed but only slightly more screwed than if you are >> > stuck in your airplane sitting right-side up in your hanger with the >> > canopy closed and with both arms broken. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ashontz wrote: >> > > What if both of your arms are broken? >> > > >> > >> > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173933#173933 > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? From: "Gig Giacona" That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the same as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of one product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor. She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the "apology" she never admits that she made it up. [quote="paulrod36(at)msn.com"] No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said something not factual. Nobody on this list has ever done that before! Lightning is shooting up from the ground, and great boulders are falling from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each other in the streets! (news and pictures at 11:00) Quick, gather the villagers with torches, and storm the castle! Even if she doesn't live there, storm the castle anyway! Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must mill around, shout and scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens. Those of us, that is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or giving the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color Scotchbrite. Where will it all end?? Oh, the humanity! (Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.) Helen, bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, and it should be over and done with. Shall we continue building, now? Paul Rodriguez DO NOT ARCHIVE > --- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174009#174009 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "ashontz" I'm just raising questions that othes can ponder. Your mocking my thinking out loud confirms your lack of awareness. If your doctor told you to quit eating red meat and cut down on the carbs lest you have a heart attack or stroke, would you mock him in the same way? Maybe you won't have a heart attack or stroke, but those things definitely don't help. Again, would you mock him in a "in your face" kind of way? Doubtful. [quote="Terry Phillips"]Gosh, Andy, that'd really be a tough break, so to speak. I guess that you just stick your head between your legs, grab the hammer with your teeth, bash open the cockpit, chew off the seatbelt and shoulder belts, and then propel yourself with your feet to the nearest shore. Oh wait, I forgot about the fire! Before you do all that, you use your teeth to grab the fire extinguisher, set it between your knees, aim it with your knees at the fire, then use your teeth to squeeze the trigger until you get the fire out. Of course, these maneuvers aren't for wimps. I recommend that you engage in regular yoga practice to loosen up. The most appropriate pose is shown here: http://www.geocities.com/donrosenberger/faculty/injurytype.jpg Good luck. Terry At 09:38 AM 3/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: > What if both of your arms are broken? > > > Terry Phillips wrote: > > One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an > > escape tool, e.g., > > > > http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm (http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm) > > > > mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging > > upside down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope > > you'll never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it. > > > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > do not archive > > > > > > > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons > are done; working on the wings > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174010#174010 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:57 PM PST US From: "Herb Heaton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions Craig, Believe it or not, they are called "sex bolts".......Really. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... From: "Andrewlieser" Hey all just wanted an opinion. When I opened my rudder kit and checked the integrity of everything I found only one concern. At first I dismissed it but as I sit here waiting for my new Doubler angle I have not yet become comfortable with it. My rudder skins came kind of wrinkled at the bottom front corner and I just wanted some opinions as to whether the integrity of the part will be compromised or if its merely aesthetic. If it is only aesthetic will the wrinkling be removed when the skin is riveted the spar pulling it taught. If you all think that this could be a problem I will send the photos to Zenith and see if they will replace it. Please take a look and let me know! Thanks again to everyone! Here is the link to the picture on my page just double click the image for a better view. http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=25804 -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174016#174016 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF From: "rbjjr" Gus, For those not able to attend, can you post some more video on your site? Thanks, Burke Johnson CH701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174017#174017 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:23 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions You can also google "binder posts". Apparently one of their intended purposes is to hold together stacks of three-hole punched paper without a three ring binder. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Heaton Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions Craig, Believe it or not, they are called "sex bolts".......Really. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:59 PM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs Gosh, I'm getting a STRONG SENSE of male testosterone floating around this forum......boys, can you please use each others email address and take this off forum?? I personal don't like reading things like this - its foolish - selfish - and extremely egotistical. Please beat each other up on YOUR TIME and quit wasting my time to have to read such nonsense. Larry Hursh ashontz wrote: I'm just raising questions that othes can ponder. Your mocking my thinking out loud confirms your lack of awareness. If your doctor told you to quit eating red meat and cut down on the carbs lest you have a heart attack or stroke, would you mock him in the same way? Maybe you won't have a heart attack or stroke, but those things definitely don't help. Again, would you mock him in a "in your face" kind of way? Doubtful. [quote="Terry Phillips"]Gosh, Andy, that'd really be a tough break, so to speak. I guess that you just stick your head between your legs, grab the hammer with your teeth, bash open the cockpit, chew off the seatbelt and shoulder belts, and then propel yourself with your feet to the nearest shore. Oh wait, I forgot about the fire! Before you do all that, you use your teeth to grab the fire extinguisher, set it between your knees, aim it with your knees at the fire, then use your teeth to squeeze the trigger until you get the fire out. Of course, these maneuvers aren't for wimps. I recommend that you engage in regular yoga practice to loosen up. The most appropriate pose is shown here: http://www.geocities.com/donrosenberger/faculty/injurytype.jpg Good luck. Terry At 09:38 AM 3/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: > What if both of your arms are broken? > > > Terry Phillips wrote: > > One solution for exiting an overturned 601 is an > > escape tool, e.g., > > > > http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm (http://www.geo-tools.com/pick20.htm) > > > > mounted securely in a place where you can reach it when your hanging > > upside down by your seatbelts. It's like a fire extinguisher--you hope > > you'll never need it, but, if you do need it, you'll be glad you got it. > > > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > do not archive > > > > > > > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons > are done; working on the wings > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174010#174010 --------------------------------- OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Dumb Rivet Question From: "rbjjr" All the parts are done and I'm just about ready to rivet the whole rudder together. In practicing with a couple of rivets on some scrap I noticed that in several cases, once the rivet is pulled, a tiny but sharp piece of steel from the center protrudes a bit. Is this normal? Am I pulling it too slowly or something? I hate to think of hundreds of those sticking out all over the finished product. I also hate to think of filing them off... Thanks, Burke Johnson CH701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174021#174021 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:47 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: High wind limits for the 601 series? Hi Guys, I must inquire as to what constitutes maximum wind conditions for the tri-gear 601HDS. Ive been flying in 13 to 20 mph winds and dont feel too uncomfortable having three runways 100 feet wide and a mile or more long, but lately, the winds are getting up to 26 with gusts to 30 mph. I was supposed to have the transponder-altimeter check tomorrow, but asked for a rescheduling because of the predicted winds. Does anyone have a set of limits for the light-aircraft 601 series? It would be nice to have others opinions relative to experiences. I've flown in 25-mph conditions, but never felt too comfortable. Whats safe and what becomes risky? Just trying to stay in one piece,,,,,,, Thanks, Larry McFarland 601 at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:47 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 05:02:13PM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the > same as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of > one product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor. It also failed miserably, as a moment's thought would have shown even the least alert student it would. As such, if it was intended as an attack, it was doomed to failure. > She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the > "apology" she never admits that she made it up. This overstates the case. She's got real concerns about the Zodiac's airworthiness, likely because she knew a guy who was killed in a crash of one. I still think I'd rather hear such rumors earlier than later, because that means they won't get a head of steam behind them before they can be debunked. Helen's posting may have been out of line, but it just doesn't bother me that much - if for no other reason than it shows how well the Zodiac stacks up against other LSAs. If it didn't, why would they be slamming it? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:11 PM PST US From: ernie Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? It did seem like a attack what got me was she used comments here that there was something wrong was the real reason to read this group to get ammo do not archive On 3/31/08, Gig Giacona wrote: > > That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the same > as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of one > product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor. > > She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the > "apology" she never admits that she made it up. > > > [quote="paulrod36(at)msn.com"] No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said > something not factual. Nobody on this list has ever done that before! > Lightning is shooting up from the ground, and great boulders are falling > from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each other in the streets! > (news and pictures at 11:00) Quick, gather the villagers with torches, and > storm the castle! Even if she doesn't live there, storm the castle anyway! > Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must mill > around, shout and scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens. > Those of us, that is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open > position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or > giving the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color > Scotchbrite. Where will it all end?? Oh, the humanity! (Sorry guys, I > couldn't resist.) Helen, bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, > and it should be over and done with. Shall we! > continue building, now? > > Paul Rodriguez > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > --- > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174009#174009 > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:01 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions O.K. to drill holes in the main part of the gear leg? Cessna uses clips. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:42 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions You can also google "binder posts". Apparently one of their intended purposes is to hold together stacks of three-hole punched paper without a three ring binder. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Heaton Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:07 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions Craig, Believe it or not, they are called "sex bolts".......Really. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:01 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... I think it will be removed when you rivet the skin. Mine was damaged a lot worse and it worked out. Paul On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 8:35 PM, Andrewlieser wrote: > > Hey all just wanted an opinion. When I opened my rudder kit and checked > the integrity of everything I found only one concern. At first I dismissed > it but as I sit here waiting for my new Doubler angle I have not yet become > comfortable with it. My rudder skins came kind of wrinkled at the bottom > front corner and I just wanted some opinions as to whether the integrity of > the part will be compromised or if its merely aesthetic. If it is only > aesthetic will the wrinkling be removed when the skin is riveted the spar > pulling it taught. If you all think that this could be a problem I will > send the photos to Zenith and see if they will replace it. Please take a > look and let me know! Thanks again to everyone! Here is the link to the > picture on my page just double click the image for a better view. > > > http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=25804 > > -------- > Andrew Lieser > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174016#174016 > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:28 PM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... Andrew Its hard to tell anything from the photo. But I'd say don't worry about it. If at the end of your build, it bothers you that much you can build another. By that time, building a rudder will seem like child's play. The point of the rudder is for you to learn. You may make a mistake or two while assembling anyway. More likely, you will not mind a little imperfection by then. Trust me, you will have a few dents here and there--in more obvious places than the bottom of your rudder. In the big picture, It won't matter much. Of course, I'm a plans builder, so I'm a little more forgiving of the guy making my parts. ;) New builders, such as yourself, tend to come into this a little anxious and trepidations. Being unfamiliar with the process, we tend to be overly concerned with getting things perfect or not making mistakes. Just Relax, and work on learning. I had to scrap my entire elevator (ribs and all)--my first scratch built part. I had to remake all the ribs and re-bend that skin that I worked so had to get perfect. I learned a lot of stuff on that second one, so I'm glad it happened. Remember this: DONT LET LITTLE MATTERS STOP YOU FROM MAKING PROGRESS! While you are waiting on your parts, go ahead and make a set of blocks for scratch-building parts. Just get maybe a couple of 24" pieces of oak. Rip a 10 degree angle on each side. Radius an 1/8", on one edge, each block; and 1/4" on the others. Use this to remake any small parts you mis-drill or mis-cut or whatever. Or just bend some scrap around it to get the feel; relieve stress; become one with the aluminum; etc. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Andrewlieser" > > Hey all just wanted an opinion. When I opened my rudder kit and checked the > integrity of everything I found only one concern. At first I dismissed it but > as I sit here waiting for my new Doubler angle I have not yet become comfortable > with it. My rudder skins came kind of wrinkled at the bottom front corner and I > just wanted some opinions as to whether the integrity of the part will be > compromised or if its merely aesthetic. If it is only aesthetic will the > wrinkling be removed when the skin is riveted the spar pulling it taught. If > you all think that this could be a problem I will send the photos to Zenith and > see if they will replace it. Please take a look and let me know! Thanks again > to everyone! Here is the link to the picture on my page just double click the > image for a better view. > > http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=25804 > > -------- > Andrew Lieser > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174016#174016 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:05 PM PST US From: Larry H Subject: Re: Zenith-List: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD? It's time to M O V E O N G E N T L E M E N !!!!! Enough is enough - drop it! She apologized - let it go. ernie wrote: It did seem like a attack what got me was she used comments here that there was something wrong was the real reason to read this group to get ammo do not archive On 3/31/08, Gig Giacona wrote: > > That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the same > as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of one > product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor. > > She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the > "apology" she never admits that she made it up. > > > [quote="paulrod36(at)msn.com"] No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said > something not factual. Nobody on this list has ever done that before! > Lightning is shooting up from the ground, and great boulders are falling > from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each other in the streets! > (news and pictures at 11:00) Quick, gather the villagers with torches, and > storm the castle! Even if she doesn't live there, storm the castle anyway! > Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must mill > around, shout and scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens. > Those of us, that is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open > position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or > giving the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color > Scotchbrite. Where will it all end?? Oh, the humanity! (Sorry guys, I > couldn't resist.) Helen, bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, > and it should be over and done with. Shall we! > continue building, now? > > Paul Rodriguez > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > --- > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174009#174009 > > --------------------------------- OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:55 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dumb Rivet Question It happens sometimes. If it happens a lot, you are either holding your riveter crooked or not holding it tight. It is bouncing and popping away from the top. When it happens to me I use a die grinder and just touch the tip. Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "rbjjr" Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:45 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Dumb Rivet Question > > All the parts are done and I'm just about ready to rivet the whole rudder > together. In practicing with a couple of rivets on some scrap I noticed > that in several cases, once the rivet is pulled, a tiny but sharp piece of > steel from the center protrudes a bit. Is this normal? Am I pulling it > too slowly or something? I hate to think of hundreds of those sticking > out all over the finished product. I also hate to think of filing them > off... > > Thanks, > > Burke Johnson > CH701 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174021#174021 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 10:13 AM > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:17 PM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dumb Rivet Question How thick are the pieces you are working on? This will probably happen more with small grip lengths? This happens to me every once in a while, but not often. Otherwise mess around with your air pressure and make a few tests. The worst thing about what you describe is (even if you file them) if you have to drill out these rivets, for some reason, it is more difficult to get the mandrel to push through. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "rbjjr" > > All the parts are done and I'm just about ready to rivet the whole rudder > together. In practicing with a couple of rivets on some scrap I noticed that in > several cases, once the rivet is pulled, a tiny but sharp piece of steel from > ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:59 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions Hi Bob, Here is my solution for the brake line routing on the landing gear. It is a small fairing I made that includes little brackets which hold the brake line in place. I routed the lines along the cabin bottom from the front to the area you see in the picture and held it in place with a couple of standard clamps. Paul XL fuselage [] At 11:47 AM 3/31/2008, you wrote: >-What do you use to attach the brake lines to the gear leg? > ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:04 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Building Engine Mount I am building an engine mount for Corvair/601XL per William Wayne manual which calls for 1/2" firewall spool tubes and diagonal tubes of 3/4". When mating the diagonal tubes to firewall spool tubes, do I "squeeze" the ends of 3/4" diagonal tubes down to 1/2" prior to welding or do I leave the 3/4" diagonal tubes as-is and somehow "fill" in the gap due to different sizes? --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "Ron Lendon" I found putting the beads in before welding to be much easier. Also found it best to tack weld the entire seam around the whole tank, ends and length before welding the tank closed. YMMV -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174049#174049 ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? From: "Ron Lendon" Larry, My first flight in the XL was 17kts gusting to 25kts and all landings were 30 to 40 degree crosswind. The full flying rudder really makes that very controllable. As far as what's safe, you answered that question yourself. Your personal limits are what matters most not the limits of the aircraft. Side note, rode the Light Sport Recumbent for the first time Saturday without shift or brakes, think I'm gonna like it. See ya next week. Fly safe, -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174056#174056 ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:35 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions > O.K. to drill holes in the main part of the gear leg? Cessna uses clips. John Well the pictures I posted were of a plane being built at Michael Heintz's Quality Sport Planes. I know of two others built there with the same approach. My belief is that the gear is the most robust (over designed?) part of an XL. -- Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:42 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions You can also google "binder posts". Apparently one of their intended purposes is to hold together stacks of three-hole punched paper without a three ring binder. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Heaton Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions Craig, Believe it or not, they are called "sex bolts".......Really. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions One "pretty" way to run the brake lines down the rear of the gear is shown in the attached pictures. I don't know what the proper name for the special "threaded post" nut and bolt shown is. Mine came from Lowes. -- Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:23 PM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High wind limits for the 601 series? Larry: I landed in Rapid City in 42 knot winds gusting to 51 in our HDS. The wind was about 45 degrees from runway heading. When I exited the runway and went to a direct cross wind I was picked up and slid across the taxiway. Thinking I had blown a tire, I shut down and asked ground control for some help. They sent out two guys who hadn't missed a meal in years and they held the wings down while I taxied to a hangar. Talking to Chris Heintz at Oshkosh about the incident, he confirmed that was one of the reasons for the big rudder and oversize ailerons. My feeling is that the 601 HDS can easily handle a 25 knot direct cross wind if there are no other options. Having said that, I think your 26-30 mph winds are a reasonable cutoff point when you have other options than taking off. Stan On Mar 31, 2008, at 6:50 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > Hi Guys, > > I must inquire as to what constitutes maximum wind conditions for > the tri-gear 601HDS. Ive been flying in 13 to 20 mph winds and > dont feel too uncomfortable having three runways 100 feet wide and > a mile or more long, but lately, the winds are getting up to 26 with > gusts to 30 mph. I was supposed to have the transponder-altimeter > check tomorrow, but asked for a rescheduling because of the > predicted winds. Does anyone have a set of limits for the light- > aircraft 601 series? It would be nice to have others opinions > relative to experiences. I've flown in 25-mph conditions, but never > felt too comfortable. Whats safe and what becomes risky? > > Just trying to stay in one piece,,,,,,, > Thanks, > > Larry McFarland 601 at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs From: "austria" Does anybody have plans to make the canopy eject-able? Thanks. Austria Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174074#174074 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.