---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/01/08: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Building Engine Mount (John Smith) 2. 02:13 AM - Re: couple of questions (John Bolding) 3. 02:15 AM - BBQ (Roy Szarafinski) 4. 03:37 AM - Re: Dumb Rivet Question (David Downey) 5. 04:26 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (ashontz) 6. 04:30 AM - Re: Building Engine Mount (ashontz) 7. 04:37 AM - Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? (ashontz) 8. 04:38 AM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (ashontz) 9. 04:48 AM - Re: Selling my ch640 kit (ashontz) 10. 04:50 AM - Re: brs install (Mark Colbeck) 11. 05:31 AM - Re: Selling my ch640 kit (robertstdenis) 12. 06:12 AM - Re: Zodiac XL Cruise Speed with 80HP (James E. Lanier) 13. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF (John Warren) 14. 07:20 AM - Remaining parts (Gary Boothe) 15. 07:35 AM - Re: Building Engine Mount (LarryMcFarland) 16. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Building Engine Mount (LarryMcFarland) 17. 08:25 AM - CZAW aircraft company is going bankrupt. Can Chip Erwin get (Bob_anderson) 18. 09:07 AM - Re: Building Engine Mount (ashontz) 19. 09:16 AM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (Bryan Martin) 20. 09:36 AM - Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? (Grant Corriveau) 21. 09:36 AM - Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? (Tim Juhl) 22. 10:23 AM - Re: couple of questions (Craig Payne) 23. 10:25 AM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (Larry Hursh) 24. 10:55 AM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (rsteele@rjsit.com) 25. 11:22 AM - 601XL with Wheel Pants (AZFlyer) 26. 12:42 PM - Re: couple of questions (mwtucker) 27. 12:42 PM - Re: 601XL with Wheel Pants (LarryMcFarland) 28. 12:42 PM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (MHerder) 29. 01:33 PM - Dynon D100 rpm (Dave Johnson) 30. 02:07 PM - Re: Dynon D100 rpm (lane_jones) 31. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Building Engine Mount (John Bolding) 32. 03:16 PM - 601 Maintenance in Salty Air (Frank Derfler) 33. 03:16 PM - 601 Maintenance in Salty Air (Frank Derfler) 34. 04:03 PM - Rudder skins (steve) 35. 04:11 PM - Interior painting (lwinger) 36. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Building Engine Mount (LarryMcFarland) 37. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: Canopy issues and VGs (Terry Phillips) 38. 04:49 PM - Re: Building Engine Mount (ashontz) 39. 06:51 PM - Re: Rudder skins (Bryan Martin) 40. 07:23 PM - CH701 Door Warning (JG) 41. 07:54 PM - Re: 601 Maintenance in Salty Air (Ron Lendon) 42. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Building Engine Mount (John Smith) 43. 08:25 PM - Re: Building Engine Mount (John Smith) 44. 09:10 PM - buble door latch (Tracy) 45. 09:12 PM - Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... (Andrewlieser) 46. 09:30 PM - Re: CH701 Door Warning (n801bh@netzero.com) 47. 10:04 PM - Re: buble door latch (Graeme) 48. 10:17 PM - Re: buble door latch (sonar1@cox.net) 49. 11:08 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 50. 11:09 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:25 AM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Building Engine Mount I am building the engine mount for Corvair/601XL according William Wynne manual which calls for 1/2" round tube for firewall spools and 3/4" round diagonal tubes. Do I need to "squeeze" the ends of 3/4" diagonal tubes to 1/2" to properly mate with the firewall spools or do I leave the 3/4" as-is and somehow "fills" the gaps, due to different tube sizes, when welding? --------------------------------- OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t --------------------------------- OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:49 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions O.K. just asking, just found it a little curious. I guess my thought is if the gear is strong enough to do the job with holes punched in it , it could be lighter and do the same job with no holes, but then again, I play left field without a glove on a pretty regular basis. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions > O.K. to drill holes in the main part of the gear leg? Cessna uses clips. John Well the pictures I posted were of a plane being built at Michael Heintz's Quality Sport Planes. I know of two others built there with the same approach. My belief is that the gear is the most robust (over designed?) part of an XL. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:39 AM PST US From: Roy Szarafinski Subject: Zenith-List: BBQ Thanks Goose, you can bet I'll be there. Roy 701 ect. do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:30 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dumb Rivet Question if they do remain the best way to remove them is with a 30,000 rpm 90 angle grinder and a 180-220 grit silicon carbide sanding disk. This allows you to gently remove the point (just kiss it lightly) without hitting the rivet head or starting to loosen the pintail from the vibrations generated when you file across a fine point. I have not had that effect on more than a couple of Avex rivets. All the parts are done and I'm just about ready to rivet the whole rudder together. In practicing with a couple of rivets on some scrap I noticed that in several cases, once the rivet is pulled, a tiny but sharp piece of steel from the center protrudes a bit. Is this normal? Am I pulling it too slowly or something? I hate to think of hundreds of those sticking out all over the finished product. I also hate to think of filing them off... Thanks, Burke Johnson CH701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174021#174021 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "ashontz" I was debating which way to go on that, bead first or after that fact, or not bead at all. Seems to be good reasons for beading so I'll do that. Right now I have a practice tank half constructed. I'll probably finish this one, see what I can learn from it, then make the two real one's after that. Ron Lendon wrote: > I found putting the beads in before welding to be much easier. Also found it best to tack weld the entire seam around the whole tank, ends and length before welding the tank closed. YMMV -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174089#174089 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount From: "ashontz" I'm still waiting for my conversion manual from WW. What welding method does he recommend? I was thinking of trying to make my own engine mount as well using my oxy-acetylene torch I bought for aluminum welding. Any recommendations for good info on how to weld steel with an oxy-torch? [quote="zenithlist(at)yahoo.com"]I am building an engine mount for Corvair/601XL per William Wayne manual which calls for 1/2" firewall spool tubes and diagonal tubes of 3/4". When mating the diagonal tubes to firewall spool tubes, do I "squeeze" the ends of 3/4" diagonal tubes down to 1/2" prior to welding or do I leave the 3/4" diagonal tubes as-is and somehow "fill" in the gap due to different sizes? ">one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174090#174090 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? From: "ashontz" That's gotta be quit an experience. Seems like much over a 15kt crosswind, particulary gusty, in a 152 started to get a little hairy and uncomfortable. Nice to know these things handle better than that. Just from memory and quick calculations, it appears as though a 152 at gross and a 601XL at gross would have about the same wing loading, so the overall bulk feel of the two should be about the same, but I'm sure that big rudder makes a difference. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174092#174092 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... From: "ashontz" Does it still need to be trimmed? If so maybe that wrinkled stuff will get snipped off anyway. do not archive Andrewlieser wrote: > Hey all just wanted an opinion. When I opened my rudder kit and checked the integrity of everything I found only one concern. At first I dismissed it but as I sit here waiting for my new Doubler angle I have not yet become comfortable with it. My rudder skins came kind of wrinkled at the bottom front corner and I just wanted some opinions as to whether the integrity of the part will be compromised or if its merely aesthetic. If it is only aesthetic will the wrinkling be removed when the skin is riveted the spar pulling it taught. If you all think that this could be a problem I will send the photos to Zenith and see if they will replace it. Please take a look and let me know! Thanks again to everyone! Here is the link to the picture on my page just double click the image for a better view. > > http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=25804 -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174093#174093 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Selling my ch640 kit From: "ashontz" Sorry to hear you're giving up the building. I hate to see people give up their dreams. Any way you can just build from plans and work at a more leisurely pace and save money at the same time? robertstdenis wrote: > Been thinking long and hard about this given the impending twins, and now that they are here and I have had to leave one of my jobs to make time to be home and all that at this point it serves us better here for me to sell my kit (completed rudder, 30% disassembled stab, plans) lest they get damaged in storage. Will even throw in four cans of zinc chromate spray paint if ya like. > > I'm looking for $1300 for the lot, u haul it kinda deal (mini van is enough). I'm in the Sudbury Ontario area (4hrs to Toronto, 5 to Ottawa, ~3hrs to the Soo). > > Contact me here or via phone 705-479-1031 or email rob@iahu.ca. > > No worries guys, I will return. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174095#174095 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: brs install From: "Mark Colbeck" I too am considering the BRS chute and would love to see your details on your install. What made you decide to go with the soft pack vs hard pack? mark(at)masterpieceliving.ca -------- CH701 70% Complete www.mykitlog.com/mcolbeck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174096#174096 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Selling my ch640 kit From: "robertstdenis" Well the lack of the 2nd job is part of it, but, as with just trying to get it built I was really lacking the time right now and it has sit dormant since November. I mean heck, I didn't even have time to get my ppl completed and my written exam lapsed. Will give it a few years and see what happens when things are a bit more stable and I'm not working all the damned time. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174102#174102 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:03 AM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL Cruise Speed with 80HP I chose to work the numbers to get an approximation of the cruise performance of 100hp vs 80hp engines. The Cd x A product was chosen to equal the Zenith website results for 100hp. If 100hp yields 134mph, then 80hp would achieve 124.35mph. This will at least get you in the ballpark. There are so many variables, that it is difficult to get exact figures. The Cd x A product would be greater at reduced velocity due to increased angle of attack. The wing lift is greater at reduced velocity due to the lift vector angle deviating more aft of the normal force. The thrust vector angle also deviates slightly. The weight of the 80hp engine would be (you would think) lower though. Jim ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:56 AM PST US From: John Warren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair 701 STOLvair @ SNF YES!! Jon Croke, of HomebuiltHELP fame, and I will post some more flying vids soon. -Gus rbjjr wrote: > > Gus, > > For those not able to attend, can you post some more video on your site? > > Thanks, > > Burke Johnson > CH701 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:53 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Zenith-List: Remaining parts List, Some of you may recall that I made a decision to abandon and sell my 601HDS project, in favor of a Pietenpol (which is moving along very nicely, thank you very much). Zill Coleman in Oklahoma has a 601 that kicked the crap out of a tornado, but suffered some damage in the process. He has purchased the wings. I still have available the completed rudder and horizontal stabilizer, plus the partially completed center section (set up for a taildragger). Anyone who wishes to discuss these items can contact me off list, gboothe5@comcast.net, as I will be signing off of the Zenith list today. Many thanks to all of you with good constructive ideas and lively entertainment. Happy skies to all and I hope no one experiences a jettisoned canopy, departing wings, reversal of gravity, ill effects of green scotchbright, or any number of horrible events that await the adventurer in all of us. Thank you, Gary A. Boothe ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:44 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building Engine Mount John, It's better to squeeze the tube edges to maximize the strength of the weld. Always try to minimize gaps as they do interfere with joint integrity. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com John Smith wrote: > I am building the engine mount for Corvair/601XL according William > Wynne manual which calls for 1/2" round tube for firewall spools and > 3/4" round diagonal tubes. Do I need to "squeeze" the ends of 3/4" > diagonal tubes to 1/2" to properly mate with the firewall spools or do > I leave the 3/4" as-is and somehow "fills" the gaps, due to different > tube sizes, when welding? > * > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:08 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount Hi Andy, The optimum process would be TIG. Oxyacetylene is a close second as you have good control of the heat involved. Should be easier by far to do the mount with the gas process. I used to gas weld aluminum tanks, but couldn't get comfortable flying a gas welded tank. You'll learn more by reading a little and practicing with sample tube pieces first. I always make weld joint samples before the fact to "tune up" the process in my head. Close those gaps before welding. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ashontz wrote: > > I'm still waiting for my conversion manual from WW. What welding method does he recommend? I was thinking of trying to make my own engine mount as well using my oxy-acetylene torch I bought for aluminum welding. Any recommendations for good info on how to weld steel with an oxy-torch? > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CZAW aircraft company is going bankrupt. Can Chip Erwin get From: "Bob_anderson" People need to know the facts. You may remember that Chip Erwin started a company in the Czech Republic years ago called "Nextair". Chip got funding from banks, who lost everything as the company went bankrupt. When Nextair did go bankrupt, he left the company and purchased the assets at less than 10 cents on the dollar. It seems that now he is doing it again. Slavia Capital is the main shareholder of CZAW. But don't take it from me. Here is the contact info for Slavia Capital. Frank Nosek Investment Banking / Director SLAVIA CAPITAL Praha Rytirska 13 110 00 Praha 1 Tel.: +420 221 181 062 Fax: +420 221 181 068 Mob.: +420 605 228 570 fnosek@slaviacapital.com www.slaviacapital.com Ownership of Czech Aircraft Works. 49,45 % of the CZAW owns SLAVIA CAPITAL AERO (SC AERO) LIMITED Road Town, Tortola, P.O.Box 3161, R.G.Hodge Plaza Virgin Islands 45,15 % owns AIRCRAFT ENTERPRISES LTD., 23,275 Belize City, Albert Street 99 Belize Note that this is the above company that Chip Erwin owns. He is already hiding his assets in Belize. 5,40% owns Trihold Limited, 64498 1066 Nicosia, Margarita House, Themistokli Dervi Str. 15 Kyper Here is an official press release from CZAW. Hello. Ive included below the full text of the release written today by Sport Aircraft Works, regarding the March 27 filing by part-owner Slavia Capital. As is always the case, there is a story behind the story, and SAW is explaining its view of the circumstances. It is good for us to note that shipments have escalated and continue, setting records for both February and March 2008, and that US deposits are held in the US; customer exposure seems to be minimized by prudent work by CZAW and the US Distributor, Sport Aircraft Works. Danny Defelici (President, SAW) also assures me that he has made no changes in his plans to attend Sun n Fun. This kind of filing is never good news; but in this case it doesnt look too bad, either. Do your homework (Czech laws differ from those of many other countries) before putting forward some of the wilder comments theyve already heard. This distribution has been delayed deliberately, to allow the company to make contact with customers, first. Tim Kern Tim Kern INK / 121five.com PO Box 30 Anderson, IN 46015-0030 USA 863-651-6095 Below is the verbatim press release. We feel that its important for you to know the facts about the current situation at Czech Aircraft Works. Here is a brief history from our point of view. IN 2006 CZECH AIRCRAFT WORKS (CZAW) TOOK ON AN INVESTMENT PARTNER FOR 49% OF THE OUTSTANDING STOCK FOR THEIR PRODUCTION EXPANSION AND PURCHASE OF NEW FACILITY. THIS INVESTMENT CAME FROM SLAVIA CAPITAL (SC), SLOVAKIA BASED INVESTMENT FIRM. AFTER INITIAL HONEYMOON SC DECIDED THAT CHIP ERWINS (CZAW CEO) MANAGEMENT WAS NOT TO THEIR LIKING AND THEY PROMPTLY TOOK OVER CONTROL OF THE FACTORY. THE PERSONNEL THAT THEY PUT IN PLACE HAD NO AVIATION BACKGROUND AND BASICALLY STRIPPED THE COMPANY OF VALUED WORKERS BY FIRING THE BEST ONES. (I believe that the investors have a very different opinion on this) NOW ITS CLEAR THAT DURING 2007 THE MANAGEMENT TOOK EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THE WRONG DECISIONS AND RUN THE COMPANY FINANCIALLY INTO THE GROUND. TOWARDS THE END OF 2007 SC DECIDED THE COMPANY NEEDED ADDITIONAL FUNDS AND OFFERED GREATER DILUTION AT UNFAVORABLE TERMS TO THE EXISTING SHAREHOLDERS. CHIP ERWIN (PARTIAL OWNER) TOGETHER WITH THE REST OF THE SHAREHOLDERS REFUSED THIS OFFER AND CHIP TOOK CONTROL OVER THE FACTORY AGAIN. (Hard to believe that an investor would want to devalue his investment. I think that an investor would want to make the company more valuable so that the value of the investment would go up). Hard to believe that management would want to run the company into the ground as that is not a good way to protect your job and investment). AT THE SAME TIME SC STARTED A CAMPAIGN TO DISCOURAGE CZAW VENDORS FROM SELLING EQUIPMENT TO THEM AND SPREADING RUMORS OF IMMINENT BANKRUPTCY. ALTHOUGH THIS CAMPAIGN WAS DETRIMENTAL TO THE COMPANY, CHIP ERWIN WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE GROWING THE COMPANY OUT OF THE MESS THAT WAS CREATED. (Again, hard to believe that investors and management would want to hurt the company. Seems that Chip Erwin did not get along with anyone). IN THE BEGINNING OF 2008 FOR THE FIRST 3 MONTHS CHIP ERWIN PROVED THE COMPANY WAS VIABLE BY RUNNING THE COMPANY ON CASH FLOW WHILE PAYING SUBSTANTIAL LIABILITIES DOWN AT THE SAME TIME. THIS DEMONSTRATES THAT THE COMPANY IS VIABLE GOING FORWARD AND IS NOT INSOLVENT OR NEEDS BANKRUPTCY PROTECTION. (Not paying debt and vendor obligations is not a way to run a company. CZAW owes a lot of money to vendors and investors. ) SC, THROUGH THEIR COLLABORATION WITH AN [AFFILIATED?] COLLECTION AGENCY, PETITIONED THE CZECH COURTS FOR BANKRUPTCY AND/OR RESTRUCTURING ON MARCH 27, 2008. IN OUR VIEW THIS WAS ANOTHER DIRTY TACTIC TO MAKE THE SHAREHOLDERS CAPITULATE IN GIVING UP FULL CONTROL OF A VIABLE COMPANY TO MINORITY SHAREHOLDER (SC). (Chip management style does not work well with others. I just does not make sense for a major investor to want to bankrupt a company. SC. It is Chip that wants to get rid of SC so that he can have it all to himself. He did this very well with Nextair years ago. Chip is hoping to purchase the assets of CZAW for almost nothing after it goes bankrupt. He will than have everything to himself which will include the aircraft designs, inventory and factory. Not a bad deal!!) How does this affect us? ITS CHIPS UNDERSTANDING THAT IT TAKES 14 DAYS FOR THE BANK TO COMMENT ON THE RESTRUCTURING PETITION, AT WHICH TIME THE COURTS WILL DECIDE WHICH WAY TO GO. ITS PROVEN FROM OUR FIRST THREE MONTHS OF 2008 THAT WE ARE VIABLE AND WE WILL PETITION THE COURT (IF IT GOES THIS FAR) TO CONTINUE OPERATING AS USUAL UNDER THE COURTS PROTECTION. THIS ACTUALLY WOULD BE GOOD FOR CZAW AS IT PROTECTS THEM FROM THEIR OWN INVESTMENT PARTNER. (I would say that Chip knows better than anyone on how the bankrupt laws work in the Czech Rep.) DELIVERIES SHOULD CONTINUE AS PLANNED. EVEN UNDER RESTRUCTURING THE COMPANY CONTINUES TO RUN AND MANUFACTURE. WE HAVE HAD TWO STRONG MONTHS (FEBRUARY AND MARCH 08) OF AIRCRAFT DELIVERIES WITH A TOTAL OF 16 AIRPLANES DELIVERED (CZAW SHIPPED 20 TOTAL IN MARCH). And just to reassure all our customers, we keep all of the deposits on this side of Atlantic. (how do we know that this is true??? To sum this up Chip Erwin has been using all of his resources (what resources? He has no money!) and energy to resolve the problems with Slavia Capital and continue to deliver one of the best LSA aircraft on the market. Thank you for your continuing support. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174137#174137 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount From: "ashontz" Thanks Larry. What kind of filler is used when welding steel like for an engine mount. Currently I'm only familiar with MIG and stick arc welding steel as well as what I've done gas welding aluminum. I still have to learn myself some steel gas welding. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi Andy, > The optimum process would be TIG. Oxyacetylene is a close second as you > have good control of the heat involved. Should be easier by far to do > the mount with the > gas process. I used to gas weld aluminum tanks, but couldn't get > comfortable flying a gas welded tank. You'll learn more by reading a > little and practicing with sample > tube pieces first. I always make weld joint samples before the fact to > "tune up" the process in my head. Close those gaps before welding. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > I'm still waiting for my conversion manual from WW. What welding method does he recommend? I was thinking of trying to make my own engine mount as well using my oxy-acetylene torch I bought for aluminum welding. Any recommendations for good info on how to weld steel with an oxy-torch? > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174155#174155 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:08 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... It doesn't look like it will effect the structural integrity any, it's just cosmetic. Some of that may get covered up by the nose skin. If it bothers you, you may be able to work the wrinkles out by rubbing the metal with the back of a spoon. I think the procedure is described in the archives somewhere. Andrewlieser wrote: > > Hey all just wanted an opinion. When I opened my rudder kit and checked the integrity of everything I found only one concern. At first I dismissed it but as I sit here waiting for my new Doubler angle I have not yet become comfortable with it. My rudder skins came kind of wrinkled at the bottom front corner and I just wanted some opinions as to whether the integrity of the part will be compromised or if its merely aesthetic. If it is only aesthetic will the wrinkling be removed when the skin is riveted the spar pulling it taught. If you all think that this could be a problem I will send the photos to Zenith and see if they will replace it. Please take a look and let me know! Thanks again to everyone! Here is the link to the picture on my page just double click the image for a better view. > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:13 AM PST US From: Grant Corriveau Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High wind limits for the 601 series? My 601HDS has excellent cross-wind capabilities due to the low/small wing and strong landing gear. The controls are also quick enough to handle most gustiness that I'm ever hoping to fly in. But again, the airplane is only as responsive as the pilot - and some days this particular pilot is in better shape than others. As with most things, the more regularly I've flown in wind and turbulence in a particular aircraft model the more my "comfort" envelope expands. But if I haven't flown for a while, I back off the old envelope and start re-expanding it gradually. My bottom line is "It's supposed to be fun." After 30+ years of flying in all sorts of "difficult" weather because I was getting paid to, I now take this "fun" requirement very seriously ;-) ... If I won't enjoy it - I don't bother. Regardless of what the book values are. I hope this is helpful Larry for making your own go/no go calls. Always part of the challenge of flying. Grant Corriveau grant.corriveau@telus.net ----------------------------- The Wings Stayed On! ----------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: High wind limits for the 601 series? From: "Tim Juhl" When preflighting unfamiliar piper low wings I always feel under the wingtip to check for scratches. Using the wing-low technique in a crosswind can drag a wing tip if the wind is strong enough. I assume the same might be possible in a XL. I have a couple of stories about being blown around on the ground. I once landed my Champ in a crosswind so strong that when I finally let the tail down the side wind on the tail pushed it to the side and unlocked the tailwheel so that I couldn't steer it. I kept it on the runway but needed wing walkers and a guy holding the tail to get it back to the hangar. Another time I landed at Great Falls Montana (in a 172) just ahead of a thunderstorm and got the plane chained down just before the gust front hit. I watched the plane literally flying in it's chains which is all that kept it from being blown away. What you can take from all this is that it is one thing getting your XL on the ground... another keeping it there :-) Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174162#174162 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:18 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions Quick survey: has anyone ever bent the main gear on an XL? Some are flying the Grove gear which is lighter. Has anyone bent it in a hard landing? The European XL has a composite main gear but the whole plane is lighter. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Bolding Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 3:05 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: couple of questions O.K. just asking, just found it a little curious. I guess my thought is if the gear is strong enough to do the job with holes punched in it , it could be lighter and do the same job with no holes, but then again, I play left field without a glove on a pretty regular basis. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: couple of questions > O.K. to drill holes in the main part of the gear leg? Cessna uses clips. John Well the pictures I posted were of a plane being built at Michael Heintz's Quality Sport Planes. I know of two others built there with the same approach. My belief is that the gear is the most robust (over designed?) part of an XL. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:37 AM PST US From: Larry Hursh Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... Is this the way it came out of the shipping crate? Does the crate show signs of being damaged on that end? If so, IMMEDIATELY take a picture of the part AND the crate! You have a claim for the part that was damaged. I personally would NOT put this wavy skin on my airplane and have it look like this. If the shipping crate wasn't damaged, I would CALL Zenith immediately and let them know how you received this skin. It should NOT have any waves whatsoever on it. From what I can tell from the picture, it looks like the end was "jammed" by something. As I said, take pictures and call Zenith. They can get a replacement skin sent out to you and possibly help you file the claim from the people that delivered it to you. You want your aircraft to not only function well, you want it to LOOK GOOD TOO, right??? I would certainly would especially when you are going to spend this much money on your airplane! Larry Hursh (N601LL Reserved) SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com Keep your eyes skyward - always! --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:22 AM PST US From: rsteele@rjsit.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... When I received my rudder kit from Zenith, the rear skin has slipped down into the crack between the side and edge of the crate. There was about 2in protruding from the crate that had been bend over. I had to disassemble the create to remove it. Zenith replaced the skin, didn't even want pictures. Ron -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... From: Larry Hursh Is this the way it came out of the shipping crate? Does the crate show signs of being damaged on that end? If so, IMMEDIATELY take a picture of the part AND the crate! You have a claim for the part that was damaged. I personally would NOT put this wavy skin on my airplane and have it look like this. If the shipping crate wasn't damaged, I would CALL Zenith immediately and let them know how you received this skin. It should NOT have any waves whatsoever on it. From what I can tell from the picture, it looks like the end was "jammed" by something. As I said, take pictures and call Zenith. They can get a replacement skin sent out to you and possibly help you file the claim from the people that delivered it to you. You want your aircraft to not only function well, you want it to LOOK GOOD TOO, right??? I would certainly would especially when you are going to spend this much money on your airplane! Larry Hursh (N601LL Reserved) SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com Keep your eyes skyward - always! ">one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL with Wheel Pants From: "AZFlyer" Builders, The photo assembly of the front fork on the 601 XL with wheel pants (new version) states "radius the front edge of wheel fork". Can somebody explain to me the purpose of this radius. It doesn't look like the wheel pant touches there...so? Thanks, Mike do not archive -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174189#174189 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: couple of questions From: "mwtucker" I'm new... I've not yet purchased the kit, but I've built the 601XL rudder at the factory workshop... Does Zenith provide guidance in the assembly instructions for these items (routing of wiring and brake lines), or is it up to us to figure it out? I can understand that each avionics/wiring install is different, but it seems like Zenith would provide guidance on the brake line installation? I'm getting ready to order the tail kit (includes plans), so I'm sure a lot of questions I have will be answered when I review the plans. Thanks, and I enjoy learning from all the experts here! Regards, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174198#174198 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:50 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL with Wheel Pants Hi Mike, Three things come to mind. The radius edge would certainly cut the air better if you didn't have the wheel pant on. The radius would reduce the stress at bending. The radius would not cut into the fiberglass on the wheel pant if contact were made at that point. All that aside, the fork would definitely look better with a nice radius on the large exposed edges. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com AZFlyer wrote: > > Builders, > > The photo assembly of the front fork on the 601 XL with wheel pants (new version) states "radius the front edge of wheel fork". > > Can somebody explain to me the purpose of this radius. It doesn't look like the wheel pant touches there...so? > > Thanks, > Mike > > do not archive > > -------- > Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com > 601 XL, 3300, Dynon > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... From: "MHerder" It doesn't look like there is any crease at all, I'd shoot them over an email let them know it MIGHT need replacement. When you get your skeleton complete put it on there and give it a shot. If you can see it I'm sure they'll send you another without a doubt. The folks at Zenith are quick to send out replacement parts and are always more than reasonable. Assuming you don't live in Alaska or HI you will usually get your parts within a week. Build your skeleton, enjoy, pay attention to the drawings and you'll be fine. I find it best to save all my scrap screw ups, especially angle as it can be used in many places in the event of a mishap. I also prefer to wait for my next screw up, so I can get multiple screw ups in one shipment. I've actually only had to have 3 parts replaced (trim tab on elevator, don't ask... HT rear former on fuselage, don't ask... And FFT tips... damaged in shipment). Don't let these things hold you back. You still have an entire airplane to build, there is always something else you can be working on. -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174199#174199 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:21 PM PST US From: "Dave Johnson" Subject: Zenith-List: Dynon D100 rpm I have installed the Dynon D100 EFIS and the Jabiru 3300. Dynon say to connect the Tach to the Alternator output then set the pulses/rev in the setup. My (probably dumb!) question is How many pulses/rev does the alternator produce? My first thought was that there were 12 coils on the stator, 12 the figure should be 12, but the Dynon setup only allows up to 8. I haven't run the engine yet, but would like to get the settings right before I do. Dave Johnson CH601XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:49 PM PST US From: "lane_jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon D100 rpm Dave The pulse rate for the 3300 is 6 (number of poles divided by number of wires) Lane Jones CH701 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Johnson To: Zenith List Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Dynon D100 rpm I have installed the Dynon D100 EFIS and the Jabiru 3300. Dynon say to connect the Tach to the Alternator output then set the pulses/rev in the setup. My (probably dumb!) question is How many pulses/rev does the alternator produce? My first thought was that there were 12 coils on the stator, 12 the figure should be 12, but the Dynon setup only allows up to 8. I haven't run the engine yet, but would like to get the settings right before I do. Dave Johnson CH601XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:54 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount Kent White, who can weld cast iron to a loaf of bread without burning either, uses RG45 on 4130, all ( well, nearly all)the Bearhawk guys use it as well. A good read on gas welding is under Budd Davisons' website www.airbum.com, find the link to "Zen and the Weld Puddle" (or close) , 20% is UNDERSTANDING the basics, the other 99% is practice. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashontz" Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount > > Thanks Larry. What kind of filler is used when welding steel like for an > engine mount. Currently I'm only familiar with MIG and stick arc welding > steel as well as what I've done gas welding aluminum. I still have to > learn myself some steel gas welding. > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:32 PM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Maintenance in Salty Air One of the members of this list sent me an email off-list asking if we had any secrets for maintaing a 601 in "salty air." I decided to share my reply. The answer is Yes! It only took a few months for the Continental 0-200 to start showing signs of salt exposure on the cooling fins, fuel pump, engine mounts, and other parts. The cure is two part. First, you have to clean it all up. A product called Salt Away ( see http://www.saltawayproducts.com/ ) can be mixed in a spray bottle. It's available from boat places and online. A little bit lasts forever because you dilute it so much. I have used dental picks, ScotchBrite pads, and a stainless steel brush to clean up the cooling fins, the front of the fuel pump, parts of the engine mounts, etc.. The second step is protection. The product to use is called Zep Restore. It's a spray resin that withstands high temps and does not weaken insulation, hoses, etc. See http://www.rpi.co.th/psr/Restore.PDF The major problem is that Zep only sells the stuff in a case of cans. I can't find anyplace to buy it by-the-can. One can will probably last a few years. I'm not a dealer. I do not sell the stuff. After the cleaning and protection, use Salt Away whenever you can. My 601 lives outside. We took the cowl off today .. about 3 months and 20 flight hours after the "treatment" and it looks pristine. Oh, also watch the nose wheel support. It seems to get eaten up fast in the front. I scraped it, masked it off, primed it with galvanized paint, and sprayed it with Rustoleum from a rattle can. Then, after that dried I sprayed it with Zep for good measure. That support takes constant watching. The "problem" I have not solved is how to "shine" the aluminum nose wheel. I cleaned it well with ScotchBrite pads and then sprayed it with Zep and it looks okay, but .... dull. -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:33 PM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Maintenance in Salty Air One of the members of this list sent me an email off-list asking if we had any secrets for maintaing a 601 in "salty air." I decided to share my reply. The answer is Yes! It only took a few months for the Continental 0-200 to start showing signs of salt exposure on the cooling fins, fuel pump, engine mounts, and other parts. The cure is two part. First, you have to clean it all up. A product called Salt Away ( see http://www.saltawayproducts.com/ ) can be mixed in a spray bottle. It's available from boat places and online. A little bit lasts forever because you dilute it so much. I have used dental picks, ScotchBrite pads, and a stainless steel brush to clean up the cooling fins, the front of the fuel pump, parts of the engine mounts, etc.. The second step is protection. The product to use is called Zep Restore. It's a spray resin that withstands high temps and does not weaken insulation, hoses, etc. See http://www.rpi.co.th/psr/Restore.PDF The major problem is that Zep only sells the stuff in a case of cans. I can't find anyplace to buy it by-the-can. One can will probably last a few years. I'm not a dealer. I do not sell the stuff. After the cleaning and protection, use Salt Away whenever you can. My 601 lives outside. We took the cowl off today .. about 3 months and 20 flight hours after the "treatment" and it looks pristine. Oh, also watch the nose wheel support. It seems to get eaten up fast in the front. I scraped it, masked it off, primed it with galvanized paint, and sprayed it with Rustoleum from a rattle can. Then, after that dried I sprayed it with Zep for good measure. That support takes constant watching. The "problem" I have not solved is how to "shine" the aluminum nose wheel. I cleaned it well with ScotchBrite pads and then sprayed it with Zep and it looks okay, but .... dull. -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:41 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder skins Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! , I need to ask this question. Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins anyway I wanted. What I m saying is that the techs had me install the forward skin under the rear skin.. After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards. I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it. However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear. I dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their heads........ So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ? Steve QBK ( sure glad it went QBK ) Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT! ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Interior painting From: "lwinger" I'll make it simple. I'm polishing the outside of my 601XL, but I'm needing help on the interior paint. I'm looking for durable, fairly easy to apply and cost effective. Any suggestions? Thanks. P.S. I've read the archives, but feel free to point me to a specific previous post. There must be a gem or two in the thousands of posts containing "paint"! -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair from scratch Control surfaces and wings complete. Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done Ready to join fuselage halves www.mykitlog.com/lwinger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174231#174231 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:00 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount Andy, I use an ER70-2 copper coated rod for 4130 aircraft steel. 3/32 and 1/16th inch sizes. Larry McFarland ashontz wrote: > > Thanks Larry. What kind of filler is used when welding steel like for an engine mount. Currently I'm only familiar with MIG and stick arc welding steel as well as what I've done gas welding aluminum. I still have to learn myself some steel gas welding. > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:17 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy issues and VGs Larry is right. My response was not appropriate. I apologize to Andy. Let's build airplanes. Terry At 05:45 PM 3/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Gosh, I'm getting a STRONG SENSE of male testosterone floating around this >forum......boys, can you please use each others email address and take >this off forum?? I personal don't like reading things like this - its >foolish - selfish - and extremely egotistical. Please beat each other up >on YOUR TIME and quit wasting my time to have to read such nonsense. > >Larry Hursh > > >ashontz wrote: >I'm just raising questions that othes can ponder. Your mocking my thinking >out loud confirms your lack of awareness. If your doctor told you to quit >eating red meat and cut down on the carbs lest you have a heart attack or >stroke, would you mock him in the same way? Maybe you won't have a heart >attack or stroke, but those things definitely don't help. Again, would you >mock him in a "in your face" kind of way? Doubtful. >[quote="Terry Phillips"]Gosh, Andy, that'd really be a tough break, so to >speak. >I guess that you just stick your head between your legs, grab the hammer >with your teeth, bash open the cockpit, chew off the seatbelt and shoulder >belts, and then propel yourself with your feet to the nearest shore. >Oh wait, I forgot about the fire! Before you do all that, you use your >teeth to grab the fire extinguisher, set it between your knees, aim it with >your knees at the fire, then use your teeth to squeeze the trigger until >you get the fire out. >Of course, these maneuvers aren't for wimps. I recommend that you engage in >regular yoga practice to loosen up. The most appropriate pose is shown here: > >http://www.geocities.com/donrosenberger/faculty/injurytype.jpg >Good luck. >Terry >At 09:38 AM 3/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > What if both of your arms are broken? > > Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount From: "ashontz" Thanks to both of you. I'll have to try it out. I have Kent White's video etc... on gas welding aluminum. Very informative. It's actually relaxing to watch too. he's like listening to a hyponotist or something. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174237#174237 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:07 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skins I don't recall building the rudder that way, but I did build the wings that way. Lapping the rear skin over the nose skin will result in a small reduction in drag because the flow won't separate when it passes over the seam. With the nose skin lapped over the rear skin, a small bubble of separated flow forms just behind the seam because the air flow has to jump off the rear edge of the nose skin and then flow back a bit before it can reattach to the rear skin. The difference in drag isn't much, so it doesn't make a lot of difference how you lap the seams. It seems counterintuitive, but a careful analysis of how the air must flow over that seam in each case makes it more clear. Chris Heintz used to cover this topic at his forums at Oshkosh. I think the folks at Zenith just got tired of explaining this fact and trying to dispel the myth that lapping the rear skin over the nose skin could somehow allow the airflow to peal the skin up. So they just changed the plans to show it the other way and let it go. Just tell your friends that you built it the way you did to reduce drag and then look at them like you can't believe they didn't see that for themselves. ;) steve wrote: > Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! , I need to ask this question. > Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under > supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins > anyway I wanted. What I m saying is that the techs had me install the > forward skin under the rear skin.. > After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I > had the skins on backwards. I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old > days" the skins were applied the way I did it. However my drawings show > the forward skin overlaping the rear. I dont think the way I did it > will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft > owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their > heads........ > So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ? > Steve > QBK ( sure glad it went QBK ) > > Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT! > > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:34 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 Door Warning Reporting on an incident that could have had serious consequences... The CH701 was flying straight and level at 70 kts on a cross-country flight. While reaching for a water bottle, the pilot accidentally snagged the left-hand inner door handle, releasing the door. The door instantly slammed up against the bottom of the wing, with such impact that the outer handle punched a hole through the wing skin. The pilot grabbed and held the door with one hand, and slowed the aircraft. But the front hinge had broken with the initial impact, causing the door to skew somewhat across the wind. The resulting force was so strong that the pilot couldn't pull the door in again, even at 50kts. Eventually he had to let it go. When it went, it hit the horizontal stabilizer, causing considerable damage to the leading edge, breaking the left forward mounting bracket (7.H.2.6), and bending the right forward bracket. So the horiz stab was then somewhat skew to the fuselage. The aircraft was still flyable, but with considerable drag and a left yaw bias. The pilot continued on to an airfield and made a successful landing. For photographs and analysis have a look at http://www.stolspeed.com/701-door-warning/ JG ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Maintenance in Salty Air From: "Ron Lendon" > The "problem" I have not solved is how to "shine" the aluminum nose wheel. I cleaned it well with ScotchBrite pads and then sprayed it with Zep and it looks okay, but .... dull. To polish to a shine you need to finish wet sanding with 600, 1000, 1500 grits, then polish with a buffing wheel and polishing compound for aluminum. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174272#174272 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:22 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building Engine Mount Kent makes gas welding aluminum looks too easy but then he is the expert. Thanks to both of you. I'll have to try it out. I have Kent White's video etc... on gas welding aluminum. Very informative. It's actually relaxing to watch too. he's like listening to a hyponotist or something. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174237#174237 --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:42 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building Engine Mount I think squeezing the tube ends would be better as well. Is heating up the tube ends and give them a good wack with a hammer a good way to squeeze them? What do people use to cut the notches at the end of diagonal tubes to mate with firewall spools. LarryMcFarland wrote: John, It's better to squeeze the tube edges to maximize the strength of the weld. Always try to minimize gaps as they do interfere with joint integrity. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com John Smith wrote: > I am building the engine mount for Corvair/601XL according William > Wynne manual which calls for 1/2" round tube for firewall spools and > 3/4" round diagonal tubes. Do I need to "squeeze" the ends of 3/4" > diagonal tubes to 1/2" to properly mate with the firewall spools or do > I leave the 3/4" as-is and somehow "fills" the gaps, due to different > tube sizes, when welding? > * > * --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:40 PM PST US From: Tracy Subject: Zenith-List: buble door latch has anyone had good results with the 701 buble door suction cups holding the doors up? anyone come up with a better idea? i beleive gas stuts will just crack the plexi just havent wanted to put the suction cups in and want somthing better. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin wrinkling kind of.... From: "Andrewlieser" Thanks everyone! Man you guys are quick to help! Everyone brings up a valid point, I think as a precaution to possibly needing a replacement down the road I will send them an email with pics just so they have it. This way if the waves get worse when riveted or the pre drilled holes don't space out right I can contact them. However over the course of the build I'm sure there will be plenty of structurally sound parts that get nicked up or blemished plus I'm not so sure that the waving wont come out when its riveted. Either way this forum has been great at helping me out as a beginner and I really appreciate it!! -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174285#174285 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:26 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 Door Warning And this warning comes from the guy who swears by VG's. Funny this 701 w as cruising at only 70 knots..... do not archive Reporting on an incident that could have had serious consequences... The CH701 was flying straight and level at 70 kts on a cross-country fli ght. While reaching for a water bottle, the pilot accidentally snagged the le ft-hand inner door handle, releasing the door. The door instantly slamm ed up against the bottom of the wing, with such impact that the outer ha ndle punched a hole through the wing skin. The pilot grabbed and held t he door with one hand, and slowed the aircraft. But the front hinge had broken with the initial impact, causing the door to skew somewhat acros s the wind. The resulting force was so strong that the pilot couldn=92t pull the door in again, even at 50kts. Eventually he had to let it go. When it went, it hit the horizontal stabilizer, causing considerable d amage to the leading edge, breaking the left forward mounting bracket (7 .H.2.6), and bending the right forward bracket. So the horiz stab was t hen somewhat skew to the fuselage. The aircraft was still flyable, but with considerable drag and a left ya w bias. The pilot continued on to an airfield and made a successful lan ding. For photographs and analysis have a look at http://www.stolspeed.com/701-door-warning/ JG ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== === _____________________________________________________________ Proven Hair Replacement Options. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/REAK6aBemFbz5BYu7Qrf3Gvyu 8xQGyO2dAL2lzMi1qi954hEeQam86/ ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:48 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: buble door latch I have suction cups on my bubble doors. only need approx 1" cup. welded a piece of hollow tube approx 4" to bracket and pop rivet to underside of wing. hole drilled through tube and fit a split pin through hole and end of suction cup for ease of replacement been on for over a year just holds enough so you can pull down from inside cockpit. very light. Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy" Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: buble door latch > > has anyone had good results with the 701 buble door suction cups holding > the doors up? > anyone come up with a better idea? > i beleive gas stuts will just crack the plexi > just havent wanted to put the suction cups in and want somthing better. > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 5:38 AM > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: buble door latch From: "sonar1@cox.net" After two years, the old suction cups kept dropping the door, so I replaced them, and very soon it started dropping again - one time cracking the plexi when it slammed on the handle. Installed 40 pound - 8.15 inch gas struts, and they are wonderful. Fred Sanford N9701 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174291#174291 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:23 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Zenith-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Zenith-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Zenith-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: zenith-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "zenith-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Zenith-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:30 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.