Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:11 AM - Re: 701 Sturdiness (was:601 crashes) (MacDonald Doug)
2. 07:12 AM - new member questions (w8n2bup)
3. 07:24 AM - Re: new member questions (Beckman, Rick)
4. 08:12 AM - Re: new member questions (Terry Phillips)
5. 08:39 AM - Maneuvering Speed is NOT related to Control Speed (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
6. 09:14 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (John Reinking)
7. 09:25 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (ashontz)
8. 09:58 AM - Re: new member questions (Tim Juhl)
9. 09:58 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (Gig Giacona)
10. 10:21 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (ernie)
11. 10:50 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (Frank Roskind)
12. 11:05 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 11:05 AM - Re: SnF (was Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash) (Cory Emberson)
14. 11:19 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (Jay Maynard)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (steve)
16. 11:28 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (MHerder)
17. 11:33 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (William Dominguez)
18. 11:33 AM - Re: Really bad news....S (Gig Giacona)
19. 11:44 AM - Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A (Grant Corriveau)
20. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Iberplanes IGL)
21. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A (Randall J. Hebert)
22. 01:03 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (lwhitlow)
23. 01:14 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Gig Giacona)
24. 01:27 PM - Re: 601XL wing jig (hansriet)
25. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Jaybannist@cs.com)
26. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: 601XL wing jig (Craig Payne)
27. 01:43 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Joemotis@aol.com)
28. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A (Bryan Martin)
29. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Stephen R. Look)
30. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Frank Roskind)
31. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Frank Roskind)
32. 02:26 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Gig Giacona)
33. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (n801bh@netzero.com)
34. 03:32 PM - Re: 601 crashes (kmccune)
35. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Jay Maynard)
36. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
37. 04:52 PM - Re: 601 crashes (Tim Juhl)
38. 05:04 PM - CH 701 Bellcrank (philip smith)
39. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: 601 crashes (steve)
40. 05:36 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Matt Ronics)
41. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Craig Payne)
42. 05:53 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (ernie)
43. 06:19 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Tommy Walker)
44. 06:24 PM - Re: 601 crashes (kmccune)
45. 06:32 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (ashontz)
46. 06:36 PM - Re: 601 crashes (Tim Juhl)
47. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Jay Maynard)
48. 07:14 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (rsteele@rjsit.com)
49. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (ernie)
50. 08:04 PM - airplane building, anyone? (Carlos Sa)
51. 08:08 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Tim Juhl)
52. 08:17 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Frank Roskind)
53. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (steve)
54. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Frank Roskind)
55. 08:29 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Gig Giacona)
56. 08:29 PM - Re: airplane building, anyone? (MHerder)
57. 08:30 PM - Re: airplane building, anyone? (Tim Juhl)
58. 08:49 PM - Wang Chung lives................... (steve)
59. 09:23 PM - Re: airplane building, anyone? (chris Sinfield)
60. 10:18 PM - Re: Really bad news....S (Joshua)
61. 10:24 PM - Re: new member questions (Terry Turnquist)
62. 11:33 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S (Iberplanes IGL)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 701 Sturdiness (was:601 crashes) |
Jerry, I think you would be surprised how tough the
701 is. Check out the carrier style landing Gus
(flywithgus.com) did with the Corvair powered 701.
Any plane that can take that handle a landing like
that and shrug it off like that one did has got to
have something going for it.
I will agree that the 016 skins are pretty thin. Some
care will have to be taken to prevent hanger rash.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Working on Electrical system
Do not archive
--- Jerry Hey <jerry@jerryhey.com> wrote:
> <jerry@jerryhey.com>
>
> I am not a 601 builder or pilot. My heart goes out
> to all the 601
> guys. I would not take a demo ride in one until
> what is going on is
> understood and remedied.
>
> I am about to start scratch building a 701. I have
> built tube and rag
> in the past.
>
> The 601 crashes have caused me to take another look
> at the 701. Quite
> honestly, I love this airplane and it is probably
> strong enough to
> never have a structural failure BUT nobody could
> call it rugged. The
> thin skins, widely separated ribs, continual talk
> about oil canning.
> I can imagine ia 701 is not difficult to dent.
> Perhaps the trade off
> of structure vs weight has tilted too far toward
> light weight. Maybe
> that is true but just for me. Others would quite
> rightly feel different.
>
> I would not mind adding a few pounds of toughness to
> my airplane.
>
> Jerry
__________________________________________________
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | new member questions |
Having just signed up last night, I'm not certain that I am posting this question
properly, and would appreciate any pointers as to where I should request future
inquiries. I am building a 601XL. Finished all of the tail,ailerons,flaps
and now working on the right wing. I was looking for any comments about the 1
1/2 inch hole cut out of the rear channel for the aileron rod. The plans call
for the center of the hole to be 20 mm up from the flange. The radius is 19 mm.
Due to the curve taking up about 2 mm, this would cause the hole to cut down
into the curve of the flange about 1 mm. The plant in Mexico, Mo. said that
that was OK, but the picture in my photo guide does not appear to show the hole
cut down into the flange. Wondered if there is plenty of room to raise this
hole up a mil or so or should I cut it into the curve? Thanks. John johnrich@everestkc.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175907#175907
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | new member questions |
Having just signed up last night, I'm not certain that I am posting this
question properly, and would appreciate any pointers as to where I
should request future inquiries. I am building a 601XL. Finished all of
the tail,ailerons,flaps and now working on the right wing. I was looking
for any comments about the 1 1/2 inch hole cut out of the rear channel
for the aileron rod. The plans call for the center of the hole to be 20
mm up from the flange. The radius is 19 mm. Due to the curve taking up
about 2 mm, this would cause the hole to cut down into the curve of the
flange about 1 mm. The plant in Mexico, Mo. said that that was OK, but
the picture in my photo guide does not appear to show the hole cut down
into the flange. Wondered if there is plenty of room to raise this hole
up a mil or so or should I cut it into the curve? Thanks. John
johnrich@everestkc.net
Go ahead and cut the hole just above the curve of the bend. You
will still have plenty of clearance for the control rod when it is
finished.
Rick
Beckman
601 xl
52EB (res.)
729 MSL
and sinking
www.sharbo.us/thebird
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new member questions |
John
I was recently asking myself the same question. Andy Elliott recently
speculated on this list whether the hole resulted in a weak spot in the
rear spar. See:
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html
I looked at the wing of a friend's QBK (see attached photo). The hole (done
by the QBK factory) was right at the bend to the flange. But, it looked to
me that it could have been ~5-mm higher and still had good clearance for
the control rod. That said, the aileron was not yet mounted on the wing,
and it wasn't under load, so I could be wrong about that.
I decided to move my hole up ~5-mm, but when I cut the hole it ended up
only 3-mm higher than plans. Hopefully that will work fine.
Terry
At 07:10 AM 4/10/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Having just signed up last night, I'm not certain that I am posting this
>question properly, and would appreciate any pointers as to where I should
>request future inquiries. I am building a 601XL. Finished all of the
>tail,ailerons,flaps and now working on the right wing. I was looking for
>any comments about the 1 1/2 inch hole cut out of the rear channel for the
>aileron rod. The plans call for the center of the hole to be 20 mm up from
>the flange. The radius is 19 mm. Due to the curve taking up about 2 mm,
>this would cause the hole to cut down into the curve of the flange about 1
>mm. The plant in Mexico, Mo. said that that was OK, but the picture in my
>photo guide does not appear to show the hole cut down into the flange.
>Wondered if there is plenty of room to raise this hole up a mil or so or
>should I cut it into the curve? Thanks. John johnrich@everestkc.net
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Maneuvering Speed is NOT related to Control Speed |
Folks:
As a Ph.D. aerospace engineer with >30 years experience in the industry,
I am really scared by what people are saying about V speeds. One likely
reason is that definitions are not found in the FAA regs, only short
descriptions. I am going to *try* to clear it up for maneuvering speed,
Va.
[1] There is no way that a designer for a light aircraft can take
control deflection rates into account when determining Va. This is only
possible in fly-by-wire systems where the maximum rates are controlled
by the software, not pilot. As an example, in a modern fighter, the
pilot can pull the stick (or handle) full aft and the plane can be made
to smoothly go to maximum available G loading without overstressing
anything.
[2] Va is a sort of a steady-state speed. It is NOT dynamically
defined. It is simply the speed at which the wing, in perfectly
coordinated flight, will reach it's stall angle of attack at the same
time the aircraft reaches its design maximum load. Since the wing can
not produce more lift past stall, the aircraft can not *in a
steady-state situation* exceed the G limits at that speed. Note that
maximum load factor is not the same as maximum load. Load factors
depend on actual aircraft weight. POH definitions of Va are almost
always at design gross weight.
[3] I said "sort of steady-state" because most light aircraft can not
hold this condition in level flight due to lack of available thrust.
That is, the drag associated with the high-G, nearly stalled condition
is much larger that the thrust available from the propeller. So the
only way to get to that corner of the flight envelope is dynamically, or
by falling out of the sky.
[4] It is absolutely, 100% surely possible to exceed the maximum
steady-state load in a dynamic condition at Va. (It is possible to
significantly exceed, temporarily, the "max" steady lift coefficient of
a wing in a phenomenon referred to as dynamic stall. Some airfoils will
go to 2X or even more of the steady max CL.)
[5] The definition includes the stricture of coordinated flight. The Va
speed does *not* hold for a rolling aircraft, where the loads are not
balanced.
SUMMARY: Va does NOT mean you can safely make abrupt control
deflections.
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD, Corvair, building...
/---------------------------------------------\
| Dr. Andrew S. Elliott |
| MSC.Professional Services PH:480/985-1557 |
| 6530 E. Virginia Street FX:866/512-4233 |
| Mesa, Arizona 85215-0736 CL:480/695-9568 |
| andrew.elliott@mscsoftware.com |
\---------------------------------------------/
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am
only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an
aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the
official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our
condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list
members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all
this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.
P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same thing
as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.
reinkings(at)comcast.net wrote:
> I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am
> only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an
> aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the
> official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our
> condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list
> members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all
> this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.
>
> P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175927#175927
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new member questions |
I believe that the hole as specified in the plans is larger than it need be. I
would suggest going a smaller and then clecoing the aileron in place and connecting
it to the bellcrank with the pushrod. Run the aileron to it's limits and
you will see exactly what you need. You can always make it a little larger
once you've seen the fit.
There is plenty of support around this area but why remove more metal than necessary?
That said, be sure to allow enough wiggle room so there is no chance of
binding in the hole. I've attached a pix of what I found would work for me...
your experience may differ.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175937#175937
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_hole_2_109.jpg
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Andy, you are completely free to put as many ribs in your wings as you like. But
until it has been proved that such a change won't NEGATIVELY effect the strength
of the wing I think I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should
as well.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175936#175936
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
I guess
fuel =0 stall spin
But I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet
Do not archive
On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am
> only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an
> aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the
> official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our
> condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list
> members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all
> this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.
>
> P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Really bad news....S |
I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a stall/spin in th
e event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal, yet there are hundreds
, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on record, including the 601 th
at went down near Bryce, VA. I would love to be able to say that I would h
ave the willpower to keep the nose down in the event of an engine stoppage,
but the record is replete with pretty good pilots who didn't. We don't kn
ow that the fuel tanks were dry in this accident, although what little evid
ence is available to outsiders suggests that fuel exhaustion was a possibil
ity, including reports of engine noise changes from witnesses, no fire afte
r the crash, and the proximity of the crash site to a destination. Even if
the cause of this accident is not a stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it st
ill is good to remember that powered aircraft fly better when there is stil
l fuel in the tanks, ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when th
e engine stops, the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially
in a very light aircraft with relatively low momentum.> Date: Thu, 10 Apr
2008 13:18:10 -0400> From: ernieth@gmail.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Really bad news....S> > --> Zenith-List message
posted by: ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>> > I guess> fuel =0 stall spin> > B
ut I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet> > Do
not archive> On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings@comcast.net> wrote:> > --
> I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am> >
only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an> > a
eronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the> > official
explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our> > condolences to
the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list> > members. Just thinkin
g out loud. I'm really discouraged about all> > this. Still eager to remain
on 'our' list.> >> > P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover
==========> > >
_________________________________________________________________
More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_instantaccess_042008
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Really bad news....S |
Hi Frank,
Thank you for the astute analysis of the recent incident. While it
doesn't reach the level of "Fact" it certainly sounds like a reasoned
and reasonable analysis.
I have been following the incidents with the XL very closely since I
expect to get mine in the air soon. One aspect that sticks out for
me is the recent sale of now two of the planes. Until your comments
I could not think of why this is important, but I also could not
ignore the correlation between the unusual accidents with the also
unusual sales. A similar event occurred with John Denver when he
purchased a home built plane and suffered a fuel starvation
accident. Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably
documented home built plane might not have a good handle on fuel
consumption, fuel management, and flight planning for that plane is a
significant issue.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 10:46 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a
>stall/spin in the event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal,
>yet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on
>record, including the 601 that went down near Bryce, VA. I would
>love to be able to say that I would have the willpower to keep the
>nose down in the event of an engine stoppage, but the record is
>replete with pretty good pilots who didn't. We don't know that the
>fuel tanks were dry in this accident, although what little evidence
>is available to outsiders suggests that fuel exhaustion was a
>possibility, including reports of engine noise changes from
>witnesses, no fire after the crash, and the proximity of the crash
>site to a destination. Even if the cause of this accident is not a
>stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it still is good to remember that
>powered aircraft fly better when there is still fuel in the tanks,
>ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when the engine
>stops, the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially
>in a very light aircraft with relatively low momentum.
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash) |
Rick is out on the show grounds right now, newly rehydrated (and I'm not), so I'll
just post the URL for Kitplanes' blog site:
www.kitplanesmag.blogspot.com.
best,
Cory
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Apr 9, 2008 10:29 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: SnF (was RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash)
>
>
>Sorry for the typo. That should be "kitplanes.com".
>
>It's been a long, hot, dehydrating day...
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>>Sent: Apr 9, 2008 6:12 PM
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: SnF (was RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash)
>>
>>
>>Hi, Craig. And thanks for asking!
>>
>>We've all been contributing to the KITPLANES news blog, which has a link on the
splash page for the magazine. You can see what we've all found to be interesting
there very easily.
>>
>>I think you can easily get there with kitplanesmag.com.
>>
>>Good show, so far.
>>
>>rick
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
>>>Sent: Apr 9, 2008 1:19 PM
>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: SnF (was RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash)
>>>
>>>
>>>Rick, what's the most interesting thing you have seen at the show so far?
>>>
>>>-- Craig
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lindstrom
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:06 AM
>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
>>>
>>>
>>>Guys, guys, guys...
>>>
>>>(and Sabrina)
>>>
>>>Here's what I know to be true from my visit to the Zenith display at Sun 'n'
Fun this morning. The aircraft that crashed was one of the first 601s made by
Czech Aircraft Works (CAW), and was recently acquired by the pilot involved
in the accident. He had owned the airplane for less than two months. No report
on his familiarity with the airplane.
>>>
>>>Obviously, we're all saddened by the accident and our hearts go out to the family.
But further speculation on the cause really serves no useful purpose until
the facts come in.
>>>
>>>As a 601 pilot, I also want to know what's up, if anything. But I'll leave
the investigation to those who have direct engineering knowledge of the airframe,
and the professional investigators. Frankly, Zenith isn't the kind of company
that would keep any known (or even suspected) issues hidden in order to sell
airframes.
>>>
>>>They're just not that kind of people.
>>>
>>>And yes, I'll continue to fly my Zodiac in the mean time.
>>>
>>>Rick Lindstrom
>>>N42KP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net>
>>>>Sent: Apr 9, 2008 12:32 PM
>>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sabrina and fellow builders,
>>>>It's possible the N numbers were vinyl and the new owner preferred the look
of the 3 inch numbers over the 12 inch.
>>>>
>>>>>From what I can see by studying the picture of the aircraft being recovered,
both wings are still associated with the main wreckage with the section of
the spar where the fuel tanks rest exposed (tanks probably tore away). The rudder
and horizontal tail are absent along with the main gear. I can't tell if
the engine or anything FWF is still attached but it would not be unusual for
it to break free in such an extreme impact.
>>>>
>>>>We will have to wait and hear what the investigators have to say when they
eventually publish their findings unless someone "in the know" releases some info
beforehand.
>>>>
>>>>>From my experience in Search and Rescue, I can tell you that in most cases
where a plane went "straight in" with little damage to nearby foliage and the
like it was a "Stall-spin" accident. It would be premature to assume that such
is the case in this instance but being human, we are all impatient for answers.
For example, the mention of a "heart attack" in the news report was made
by someone with less knowledge of the accident than those of us who monitor this
list.
>>>>
>>>>I think what bothers all of us the most is that we just don't know for sure
whether there is a structural issue with the aircraft or if the problems lies
with how we fly it. The thought that you could be flying along, doing everything
right and have a wing fail would scare anyone. On the other hand, if it
is an issue with pilots making abrupt forward elevator movements then we can deal
with that (training and control stops.) Gig's story of the model airplane
is a perfect example of the forces involved.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>As I am still building my XL events such as the recent crash damp my enthusiasm
somewhat, but I am not ready to give up yet. That said, I do have one request
of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details." They
published pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific
information on the results. Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it
says on my plans. They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would
like to know the details of such tests. For example - was the test aircraft
exposed to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing
damage? The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts,
not just assurances.
>>>>
>>>>Pardon me for being so windy...
>>>>
>>>>Tim Juhl
>>>>
>>>>Do not archive
>>>>
>>>>--------
>>>>______________
>>>>CFII
>>>>Champ L16A flying
>>>>Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
>>>>Working on fuselage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175728#175728
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 11:01:58AM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably documented home built
> plane might not have a good handle on fuel consumption, fuel management,
> and flight planning for that plane is a significant issue.
This is one reason I plan to spend several hours with CFIs at the AMD
factory before flying off with my new plane.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!
I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it... go
figure..
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "ernie" <ernieth@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Really bad news....S
>
> I guess
> fuel =0 stall spin
>
> But I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet
>
> Do not archive
> On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am
>> only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an
>> aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the
>> official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our
>> condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list
>> members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all
>> this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.
>>
>> P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Paul,
I agree with your statement about the unusual circumstances of the sale, but just
wanted to point out that this aircraft was manufactured by Czech Airworks I
believe. Also... To Frank, thank you for your well thought well stated input
as well.
I am concerned about the situation, however I remain confident that if there is
any problem Zenith will address appropriately. I'll ask again, does anyone have
info as to whether or not the elevator mod was installed?
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175957#175957
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
psm(at)att.net wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> ... Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably
> documented home built plane ....
> Paul
> XL fuselage
> do not archive
>
The plane in question was factory built. Here is the web site advertising the sale
of the plane:
http://www.nowakfamily.com/airplane.htm
--------
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175958#175958
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
And without a doubt flying sailplanes has made you a better pilot. BUT most pilots
don't have any experience flying sans engine and it is the most natural thing
in the world to pull back on the stick when the plane is loosing altitude
no matter what your speed is. It is something that has to be trained out of you.
notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote:
> Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!
> I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it... go
> figure..
> SW
> ---
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175959#175959
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A |
I wonder if any of these (expensive) test programs required for
certified aircraft are performed for amateur built? After all, our
aircraft do carry a big sticker (varies by country) that says to
effect: "This Is Not A Certified Aircraft"
The manufacturer's reputation and track record is mostly what we have
to go on when deciding which Kit we buy and build. Then of course
the actual quality of the build will vary, and folks will (often)
make their own non-certified, untested "improvements" ...
Worst of all, many pilots fly their Zodiacs as if the "Aerobatics
Prohibited" admonition did not exist -- ("but it looks so sporty, it
must be aerobatic!" not!).
BTW - Could someone please confirm or deny that this recent crash was
an XL version?
Thanks.
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Why dont we stop all this rumors and guessing once and for all and hire an
independent engineer to check the plane and the design really hard.
Is that so hard to do? Weve invested good money on the kits, and now what?
cant we afford a couple of u$s and get answers to our questions and fears?
Come on !!!
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Dominguez" <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:30 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S
> <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>
>
> psm(at)att.net wrote:
>> Hi Frank,
>> ... Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably
>> documented home built plane ....
>> Paul
>> XL fuselage
>> do not archive
>>
>
>
> The plane in question was factory built. Here is the web site advertising
> the sale of the plane:
>
> http://www.nowakfamily.com/airplane.htm
>
> --------
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175958#175958
>
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A |
Grant this is what FAA has
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=357DT&cmn
dfind.x=14&cmndfind.y=7
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Randall J Hebert
CH701 Tails built starting Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant
Corriveau
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A
--> <grant.corriveau@telus.net>
I wonder if any of these (expensive) test programs required for
certified aircraft are performed for amateur built? After all, our
aircraft do carry a big sticker (varies by country) that says to
effect: "This Is Not A Certified Aircraft"
The manufacturer's reputation and track record is mostly what we have to
go on when deciding which Kit we buy and build. Then of course the
actual quality of the build will vary, and folks will (often) make their
own non-certified, untested "improvements" ...
Worst of all, many pilots fly their Zodiacs as if the "Aerobatics
Prohibited" admonition did not exist -- ("but it looks so sporty, it
must be aerobatic!" not!).
BTW - Could someone please confirm or deny that this recent crash was an
XL version?
Thanks.
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
In response to a number of threads regarding the structural integrity of the 601XL;
Perhaps you might want to review the plans and assembly manual before you make
a recommendation about skin thickness
I just walked out to my shop to be sure but my 601XL plans (August 2005) and my
kit (November 2005) specify and have .025 wing skins. IRRC that change was made
a number of years ago, after a number of builders noted difficulty in not damaging
the .019 skins. As far as I know, this has been the spec for a number
of years.
Remember on the internet "nothing ever goes away". By posting bad information and
the resultant suggestions on how to "strengthen things", you can easily wind
up doing far more harm than good.
A open an honest discussion between people who are willing to listen to others
ideas and comment constructively about the issues is much more likely to have
productive results.
I look forward to flying my 601XL in less than a year. And if I need to make any
modifications, that Zenith recommends then I will.
I respect many people's desire to have a independent design engineer look at the
design. It could shed some useful insight, or it could produce nothing more
than " the wing/spar design meets the specifications for the aircraft", in which
case we would still be left with an number of un-answered questions.
Lets face reality here, most GA accidents cannot have a root cause determined with
100% accuracy. With only the crash remains, and the absence of a Flight Data
Recorder, many times the most likely scenario is the final determination.
Build these airplanes to the designers specifications. Operate them within the
designers specifications. Thats the key to safety.
There will always be risks. The Wright brothers took risks, but they reduced them
as much as possible, and then accepted the rest. No machine built by a man
is immune to failure.
If you can do something that will reduce your risk, do it, but don't do something
that is nothing more that security theater. A rib here. a thicker skin there,
if your a loads engineer it might be a good choice, if not security theater.
If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly
If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then
don't build one.
If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a
long one.
Its time to turn the key, pull the chocks, and explore the sky
Larry Whitlow
601XL 75% done 85% to go
Northwest Indiana
reinkings(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Have just read of another 601 crashing because of early witness accounts
> /// SNIP ///
> Sadly, this certainly leaves a lot of builders and wannabes confused and
> concerned about the sudden increase in wing failures.
>
> My own thoughts are possibly installing 4 additional ribs on each wing
> and/or increasing the wing skins to ALL being .025 thickness rather than
> the .016 used in some locations. Perhaps that and increasing the
> length of the center wing spar and spreading out the stress loads
> further along the attach points might help.
>
> Although an attendant increase in weight is forseeable perhaps the loss
> in 'useful load' would justify these or other considerations and at
> least provide the builder/pilot with a more secure appreciation for this
> beautiful little aircraft. I, for one, would not be upset if the
> aircraft carried less fuel (in order to stay under the LSA 1320# rule
> knowing that this increased engineering would provide a larger margin of
> error while flying it.
>
> I am most interested in what the NTSP will report in it's findings.
> Further, I am very interested in any thoughts or ideas other
> builder/pilots are considering in these areas.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175980#175980
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
lwhitlow wrote:
>
> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly
> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then
don't build one.
> If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be
a long one.
>
Worth repeating.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175984#175984
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL wing jig |
what jig are you guys talking about?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175987#175987
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
True - and worth repeating again and again!!!
"Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>lwhitlow wrote:
>>
>> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly
>> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built,
then don't build one.
>> If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be
a long one.
>>
>
>
>Worth repeating.
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL wing jig |
6-B-13, lower right corner.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hansriet
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL wing jig
what jig are you guys talking about?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175987#175987
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
In a message dated 4/10/2008 9:59:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
wr.giacona@suddenlink.net writes:
I think I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should as well
Who died and left you in charge of the design and modifications on the
Experimental aircraft that I am building????
It is called Experimental for a reason, Gig.
Joe Motis
Do not archive.
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vfe Va Vne AC 90-89A |
That 26 knot stall speed was listed as IAS and with full flaps. I
suspect that the actual stall speed (CAS) is significantly higher than
that and Va is stated for the no flaps configuration. The Zenith web
site list the XL's stall speed as 44 knots CAS. The Czech built model
should be about the same.
The information I got from Zenith was Va = 110 MPH, Vfe = 80 MPH and Vne
= 180 Mph.
I have flight tested my airplane for Vne. I have also tested it to 4Gs
at gross weight. I did not test full control deflection at Va. For one
thing, just because you are flying below Va doesn't mean you can't break
the airplane by applying full control deflection. It just means that the
wing will stall before it can exceed the positive G flight load limit in
in a wings level attitude. I.e. you can apply full back stick without
tearing the wings off, but not necessarily full forward stick and not
necessarily full back stick with a large roll input.
Sabrina wrote:
>
> I understand it is a calculated value. My question is, has anyone, tested it.
Since the rule of thumb is that a 4G aircraft's Va is 2X its stall speed, if
the CAW stalls at 26, Va would be 52 knots if it were 4G, since it is 6Gs, what
is its calculated Va at 1320?
>
> One would think someone would have flown the airplane at 5 knots above stall,
used "full from neutral" elevator deflection and recorded the G forces. Then
at 10 knots above stall, etc. upto at least 2X stall speed.
>
> One would expect "full from neutral" deflections to equal 4Gs at 2X stall. My
question is, has anyone done it?
>
> I am not talking about rudder or aileron deflections, just "full elevator deflections
from neutral." Flight 587 reminds us that flying below Va does not protect
us from limit to limit vertical surface movement.
>
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
I want to know what happens after you spend big
bucks and the independent engineer declares the design sound?
Steve
At 02:02 PM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>
>Why dont we stop all this rumors and guessing
>once and for all and hire an independent
>engineer to check the plane and the design really hard.
>Is that so hard to do? Weve invested good money
>on the kits, and now what? cant we afford a
>couple of u$s and get answers to our questions and fears? Come on !!!
>
Steve Look
Monticello, IL
601XL/Corvair
"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good fli
ght planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the guida
nce of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another enginee
r who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I am not
likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.> Date: Thu, 10 Ap
r 2008 16:38:57 -0400> From: Jaybannist@cs.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.c
om> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S> > --> Zenith-List m
essage posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com> > True - and worth repeating again and
again!!!> > > "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:> > >--> Zen
ith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>> >> >
> >lwhitlow wrote:> >> > >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight
, then don't fly> >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an air
craft that you built, then don't build one.> >> If your looking for a 100%
failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.> >> > >> >>
>Worth repeating.> >> >--------> >W.R. "Gig" Giacona> >601XL Unde
========================> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_instantaccess_042008
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good fli
ght planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the guida
nce of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another enginee
r who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I am not
likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.> Date: Thu, 10 Ap
r 2008 16:38:57 -0400> From: Jaybannist@cs.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.c
om> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S> > --> Zenith-List m
essage posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com> > True - and worth repeating again and
again!!!> > > "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:> > >--> Zen
ith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>> >> >
> >lwhitlow wrote:> >> > >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight
, then don't fly> >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an air
craft that you built, then don't build one.> >> If your looking for a 100%
failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.> >> > >> >>
>Worth repeating.> >> >--------> >W.R. "Gig" Giacona> >601XL Unde
========================> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_getintouch_042008
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Nobody Joe. But as an experimental aircraft builder and not trained in AE I've
chosen not to test major airframe modifications that haven't been proved to not
negatively effect the structure and safety of the aircraft.
You, Andy and anyone else who isn't an AE or at least has a very strong understanding
of the subject can do so at your own risk. It is simply my opinion that
such an act by those without the training is foolish.
You should remember that there are many builders that don't regularly read this
forum but do find things via Google searches and such who might come across the
suggestion to start adding ribs and think, "Hey that's a great idea. I think
I'll do that." My post was just a simple addition to notify such readers that
it isn't necessarily that damn simple.
Joemotis(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/2008 9:59:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wr.giacona@suddenlink.net
writes:
>
> > I think I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should as well
>
>
> Who died and left you in charge of the design and modifications on the Experimental
aircraft that I am building????
> It is called Experimental for a reason, Gig.
>
> Joe Motis
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175995#175995
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
That is / was a beautiful plane....... So sad...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "William Dominguez" <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
om>
psm(at)att.net wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> ... Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably
> documented home built plane ....
> Paul
> XL fuselage
> do not archive
>
The plane in question was factory built. Here is the web site advertisin
g the sale of the plane:
http://www.nowakfamily.com/airplane.htm
--------
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175958#175958
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Right on time. Click now for great project management software!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s97GD2vv92NtRV9WRo
c9KAOoxlIU8zJ5neQE5BJJtIUkMVk/
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Jerry,
You worry about .016" skin and yet you happily (I assume) have flown in rag wings?
(I have done the same and am not in any way putting them down) I'd put .016"
AL up against fabric any old day. I'm sure rag wings oil can too, we just
don't have the ability to hear it. Have you purchased the .016" yet? It is not
the foil that you may think it is. The 701 has an impeccable safety record and
I have no worries about it. The Savannah has longer wings, a higher Vne and
a higher gross. Yet it is not as ruggedly built as the 701, I may be wrong(I
don't think so though) but I believe it to be a slightly moded non-SP (early
model) 701. I have the Savannah upgrade instructions for the higher gross and
it is not much!
Build your airplane and fly safe and you will be safe.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176006#176006
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 05:20:08PM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:
> OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good
> flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the
> guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another
> engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I
> am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.
Flying, like everything else in life, involves risk. The measure of a safe
pilot is not in absolute avoidance of risk, but in management of risk to the
extent possible. We manage the risk of flying into a thunderstorm by getting
thorough weather briefings and using inflight resources such as XM weather
or Flight Watch. We manage the risk of fuel exhaustion by taking off with a
known quantity of fuel, leaning the mixture and reducing power when
practical, and keeping careful track of how long we've been flying. We
manage the risk of getting lost by having and using navigational instruments
and navaids, and good old pilotage and good, current charts.
There is a risk of the Zodiac's wings falling off, just as there is with any
aircraft. What I, at least, am looking for is information to help me manage
that risk. If the inflight breakups that have happened are due to pilot
error, I want to know what that error is so I can train to avoid it. If
they're due to poor construction, I'm comfortable that my aircraft will not
have that problem and/or that it can be discovered with a good inspection.
If they're due to inadequate design, the problem can be managed by a
suitable modification.
Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers can have
structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual
circumstances. One need look no farther than the V-tail Bonanza to see that.
I'm not slamming Chris Heintz at all; if I wasn't confident in his ability,
I wouldn't have bought a Zodiac in the first place.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Hi Jay & all,
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
> Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers can have
> structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual
> circumstances.
As a lurker following this thread, I am struck by this very fact.
One's response to this issue seems to hinge on a very personal thing:
Am I inclined to conclude inductively, based on incidents with
incompletely understood causes, that there is evidence of an overall
problem? Or am I the kind of person who likes to see specific reasons
and actively tries to avoid making conclusions based on this
incomplete information? From the first type of thinking, we have
actuaries and stockbrokers, while from the second, we have cavers and
astronauts.
Perhaps everyone should just agree that not enough is known at this
point, and everyone should stop trying to convince everyone else.
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
You're talking Apples and Oranges when you compare a ragwing to a Zenith. I also
own a ragwing (Champ) and the fabric covering is for the most part just a cover.
The strength in the fuselage comes from the welded tube frame. In the
wings, there is internal cross bracing between the spars while the ribs are held
in position by nails in the spars and tiny screws thru the fabric into the
rib flange.
In semi monocoque construction like the Zenith (and Cessna, Piper, et al) the skin
is indeed a structural component. It serves not only as a aerodynamic cover
but also holds all of the underlying skeleton in position and helps transfer
and distribute the flight loads. Although the individual pieces may seem
flimsy, when joined together you can create a robust structure that performs well.
My wife helped me move the tail section of my XL fuselage out into the main hangar
today and she was not impressed. I'm not sure I convinced her that the finished
product will be strong enough to carry us aloft. For the time being she
is giving me the benefit of the doubt. :-)
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176021#176021
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | CH 701 Bellcrank |
Am installing the rod attaching the elevator bell crank to the control
stick in a 701 ( sorry not at work bench so no part numbers ). In a
previous post it was suggested that one mount the stick and bell crank in
the vertical position ie parallel. Which side of the bell crank was used
for vertical - the elevator cable holes in the rear or the top elevator
cable hole and the bottom rod attach hole. My thought is that you would
keep the rear holes parallel. Or should one fab the rear rod attachment and
wait until you rig the elevator to drill the front? I know all sounds
dumb but would appreciate a reply
Tnx
Phil
CH -701 getting there
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
" Eggshell "
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 crashes
>
> You're talking Apples and Oranges when you compare a ragwing to a Zenith.
> I also own a ragwing (Champ) and the fabric covering is for the most part
> just a cover. The strength in the fuselage comes from the welded tube
> frame. In the wings, there is internal cross bracing between the spars
> while the ribs are held in position by nails in the spars and tiny screws
> thru the fabric into the rib flange.
>
> In semi monocoque construction like the Zenith (and Cessna, Piper, et al)
> the skin is indeed a structural component. It serves not only as a
> aerodynamic cover but also holds all of the underlying skeleton in
> position and helps transfer and distribute the flight loads. Although
> the individual pieces may seem flimsy, when joined together you can create
> a robust structure that performs well.
>
> My wife helped me move the tail section of my XL fuselage out into the
> main hangar today and she was not impressed. I'm not sure I convinced her
> that the finished product will be strong enough to carry us aloft. For
> the time being she is giving me the benefit of the doubt. :-)
>
> Tim
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176021#176021
>
>
>
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Some of you people seem to be happily willing to go down in a 601XL just to spite
everyone else.
Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes. Burt Rutan
flew out and inspected a Varieze that crashed on account of a structural failure.
As it turns out, the builder didn't follow the plans. Read for yourself
here:
http://www.ez.org/cp33-5.htm
Note the sentence: "Prior to this accident the VariEze type had amassed approximately
150,000 hours flying without in-flight airframe failure, even though many
of the aircraft have relatively poor workmanship."
Has the 601XL fleet approached 150,000 hours?
If I designed a plane that someone said broke-up in flight I would personally go
inspect it. If I decided against going the first time, thinking it was a fluke,
I would certainly go look at the second, or third, if such occured. I admire
Heintz's engineering ability but I find him irresponsible here. Computers
and sandbags don't always tell us everything we need to know.
The Heintzs' shouldn't be leaving this up to the FAA to "investigate," they should
investigate these aircraft themselves. Why some of you stick your head in
the sand while crapping on others, I do not know.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176033#176033
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
> Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes.
They do:
NTSB Identification: LAX06LA105.
...
Accident occurred Wednesday, February 08, 2006 in Oakdale, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/26/2007
Aircraft: Hooker Zodiac 601XL, registration: N105RH
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
...
Investigators from the Safety Board, the FAA, and the kit manufacturer, a
party to the investigation, examined the wreckage at Plain Parts,
Sacramento, California, on March 16, 2006, and again on November 16, 2006
-- Craig
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
chain of events ; not cause and effect
On 4/10/08, steve <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!
> I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it... go
> figure..
> SW
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ernie" <ernieth@gmail.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Really bad news....S
>
>
> >
> > I guess
> > fuel =0 stall spin
> >
> > But I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet
> >
> > Do not archive
> > On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am
> >> only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an
> >> aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the
> >> official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our
> >> condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list
> >> members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all
> >> this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.
> >>
> >> P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
I probably shouldn't do this, but I've had all I can stand.
If there was a way to filter you out of the digest, believe me, I would do it.
Since I can't, I will just stop the Matronics Digest each day.
In my opinion sir, you are a hazard to aviation, and homebuilders.
I emailed Mr. Draille a few weeks ago and asked him if he could start a 701/801
list because of the continual posts that you make. Unfortunately, he didn't
see the need.
So, I bid the list adieu.
To the many, many list members, I apologize for this tirade. I appreciate the
help you've given me and I hope that I've helped a few builders along the way.
I finished my 701 and it is flying successfully. Might I add, it was built to
the designers specifications. I don't fancy myself an aeronautical enginer.
I could crash tomorrow, but it won't be because I thought I knew more than the
designer.
I like the 701 design so well, that I'm building another.
Regards to the list.
Tommy Walker
N8701
ashontz wrote:
> Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same thing
as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.
>
> No need to apologize for being reminded by 'by the book' types, that also don't
have any experience, and are even less inquisitive, that only aeronautical
engineers have brains and those brains are always 100% accurate at all times,
and automatically trump anyone else who may happen to attempt to thing for quote]
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176046#176046
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I agree, but it is the perception, that is being questioned and Jerry offered up
the rag wing. Its not like the skin will fatigue any sooner then the fabric
will rot a few times on your champ. But your cloth is indeed part of your fuselage,
remove it and see if it flys.
BTW: My next build is going to be a ragwing Cub like something or other.
Tim Juhl wrote:
> You're talking Apples and Oranges when you compare a ragwing to a Zenith. I
also own a ragwing (Champ) and the fabric covering is for the most part just a
cover. The strength in the fuselage comes from the welded tube frame. In the
wings, there is internal cross bracing between the spars while the ribs are
held in position by nails in the spars and tiny screws thru the fabric into the
rib flange.
>
> In semi monocoque construction like the Zenith (and Cessna, Piper, et al) the
skin is indeed a structural component. It serves not only as a aerodynamic cover
but also holds all of the underlying skeleton in position and helps transfer
and distribute the flight loads. Although the individual pieces may seem
flimsy, when joined together you can create a robust structure that performs
well.
>
> My wife helped me move the tail section of my XL fuselage out into the main hangar
today and she was not impressed. I'm not sure I convinced her that the
finished product will be strong enough to carry us aloft. For the time being
she is giving me the benefit of the doubt. :-)
>
> Tim
> Do not archive
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176047#176047
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Do you work for Zenith or something. Oh, that's right, you wanted to rent out
a fleet of 601xls.
If I didn't accept the risks of flying I wouldn't have gotten a pilot's license.
I'm not some pu$$y girly-girl. I won't however take an unncessary risk. I'd
like to be able to rely on the plane and let my piloting skills be the limiting
factor, not the questionable strenth of the the wings. If I was going 250 mph
in a dive in an XL, yes, I'd expect the wings to rip off, if I'm going 120 mph
I'd like to know I have some margin of error, even under average piloting skills.
Personally, you're getting annoying as hell. and I know it's because you
have some sort of vested interest in this. That being the case, I no will be
a prick. EVERYONE, PLEASE NOTICE GIG HAS A PERSONLA VESTED MONETARY INTEREST
IN SQUASHING ANY AND ALL DOUBTS ABOUT THE WING INTEGRITY OF THE 601XL. Ok, Gig,
you happy now. I excel at being an a$$hole. I grew up in an a$$hole and envoronment
and love calling bullying JOs on their sh!t. Deal with it.
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> lwhitlow wrote:
> >
> > If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly
> > If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built,
then don't build one.
> > If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might
be a long one.
> >
>
>
> Worth repeating.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176048#176048
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
RE: Ragwing - I suspect the champ would fly as long as the tail and wings were
covered (remember the breezy?) Wouldn't be very fast :-)
Personally I like fabric airplanes.... just don't let anyone carrying a sharp object
get too close :-) Aluminum certainly has the edge in durability.
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176051#176051
Message 47
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 06:30:03PM -0700, ashontz wrote:
> Personally, you're getting annoying as hell. and I know it's because you
> have some sort of vested interest in this. That being the case, I no will
> be a prick.
You succeeded. That was totally uncalled-for.
We have a reasonable difference of opinion over the possibility of a
structural design issue with the Zodiac XL. Reasonable men can have those
and still respect each other. While I disagree with Gig's assessment, I
understand that it has a defensible basis.
You owe Gig an apology.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 48
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Really bad news....S |
For what it's worth, the 601XL that crashed in Virginia was being flown
by the seller, not the new owner. It was "one last flight" before
delivering the plane. According to the NTSB report less than 2
tablespoons of fuel was recovered from the entire fuel system, from
tanks to carburetor bowls. To say it's anything other than running out
of fuel seems like nonsense to me. Also fuel is not available at Sky
Bryce airport, where the plane was based. Also, I don't remember the
exact numbers, but the hours on the plane since it had been fueled
indicated he would have been flying on fumes at take off.
This pilot had a good reputation before the crash, known to be
meticulous and careful. A cruel reminder that it only takes one
mistake.
Ron
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Really bad news....S
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Hi Frank,
Thank you for the astute analysis of the recent incident. While it
doesn't reach the level of "Fact" it certainly sounds like a reasoned
and reasonable analysis.
I have been following the incidents with the XL very closely since I
expect to get mine in the air soon. One aspect that sticks out for
me is the recent sale of now two of the planes. Until your comments
I could not think of why this is important, but I also could not
ignore the correlation between the unusual accidents with the also
unusual sales. A similar event occurred with John Denver when he
purchased a home built plane and suffered a fuel starvation
accident. Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably
documented home built plane might not have a good handle on fuel
consumption, fuel management, and flight planning for that plane is a
significant issue.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 10:46 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a
>stall/spin in the event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal,
>yet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on
>record, including the 601 that went down near Bryce, VA. I would
>love to be able to say that I would have the willpower to keep the
>nose down in the event of an engine stoppage, but the record is
>replete with pretty good pilots who didn't. We don't know that the
>fuel tanks were dry in this accident, although what little evidence
>is available to outsiders suggests that fuel exhaustion was a
>possibility, including reports of engine noise changes from
>witnesses, no fire after the crash, and the proximity of the crash
>site to a destination. Even if the cause of this accident is not a
>stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it still is good to remember that
>powered aircraft fly better when there is still fuel in the tanks,
>ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when the engine
>stops, the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially
>in a very light aircraft with relatively low momentum.
Message 49
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
maybe we can get a new 601 list for building questions only too
On 4/10/08, Tommy Walker <twalker@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> I probably shouldn't do this, but I've had all I can stand.
>
> If there was a way to filter you out of the digest, believe me, I would do
> it. Since I can't, I will just stop the Matronics Digest each day.
>
> In my opinion sir, you are a hazard to aviation, and homebuilders.
>
> I emailed Mr. Draille a few weeks ago and asked him if he could start a
> 701/801 list because of the continual posts that you make. Unfortunately,
> he didn't see the need.
>
> So, I bid the list adieu.
>
> To the many, many list members, I apologize for this tirade. I appreciate
> the help you've given me and I hope that I've helped a few builders along
> the way.
>
> I finished my 701 and it is flying successfully. Might I add, it was built
> to the designers specifications. I don't fancy myself an aeronautical
> enginer. I could crash tomorrow, but it won't be because I thought I knew
> more than the designer.
>
> I like the 701 design so well, that I'm building another.
>
> Regards to the list.
>
> Tommy Walker
> N8701
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same
> thing as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.
> >
> > No need to apologize for being reminded by 'by the book' types, that also
> don't have any experience, and are even less inquisitive, that only
> aeronautical engineers have brains and those brains are always 100% accurate
> at all times, and automatically trump anyone else who may happen to attempt
> to thing for quote]
>
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176046#176046
>
>
Message 50
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | airplane building, anyone? |
Progress report:
Last year wasn't good for my project: too much work and traveling, leaving little
time for building.
Thankfully, things slowed down the past few weeks, and I was able to complete the
right wing panel (complete as much as we can in Canada, as it needs to be inspected
before final closing).
(See attached picture (1.06 MB) )
Polishing skins for the left wing has started (2.2 sqft / h).
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
--------
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176082#176082
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2569_905.jpg
Message 51
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Perhaps the anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard rather than face to face with
a person makes some of you feel you can treat others on the list in a disrespectful
manner. When people like Tommy Walker are driven by disgust to want to
leave the list and gentlemen like Gig Giacona are treated in such a manner I
wonder how long our list can survive before no one wants to participate. I'm
also concerned for the newer members who are looking to those of us who been
around for awhile for advice and leadership. What kind of example are we setting?
I believe that everyone on this list should feel free to express their opinion
and those that do not agree are welcome to respectfully disagree. When we start
calling names and making accusations we accomplish nothing. For me, I would
like to hear what people have to say after which I will draw my own conclusions.
Tim Juhl
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176084#176084
Message 52
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Really bad news....S |
This was exactly my point- a good pilot ran out of fuel, and then apparentl
y stalled the aircraft. I found this accidnet to be one of the most frustr
ating and scariest, because it was was of the "there but for the grace of G
od go I" variety.> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:10:43 -0700> From: rsteele@rjs
it.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Really bad news....S> To: zenith-list@mat
hat it's worth, the 601XL that crashed in Virginia was being flown> by the
seller, not the new owner. It was "one last flight" before> delivering the
plane. According to the NTSB report less than 2> tablespoons of fuel was re
covered from the entire fuel system, from> tanks to carburetor bowls. To sa
y it's anything other than running out> of fuel seems like nonsense to me.
Also fuel is not available at Sky> Bryce airport, where the plane was based
. Also, I don't remember the> exact numbers, but the hours on the plane sin
ce it had been fueled> indicated he would have been flying on fumes at take
off. > > This pilot had a good reputation before the crash, known to be> m
eticulous and careful. A cruel reminder that it only takes one> mistake.> >
Ron> > -------- Original Message --------> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Reall
y bad news....S> From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>> Date: Thu, April 10, 200
8 11:01 am> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> > --> Zenith-List message posted
by: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>> > Hi Frank,> > Thank you for the astute an
alysis of the recent incident. While it > doesn't reach the level of "Fact"
it certainly sounds like a reasoned > and reasonable analysis.> > I have b
een following the incidents with the XL very closely since I > expect to ge
t mine in the air soon. One aspect that sticks out for > me is the recent s
ale of now two of the planes. Until your comments > I could not think of wh
y this is important, but I also could not > ignore the correlation between
the unusual accidents with the also > unusual sales. A similar event occurr
ed with John Denver when he > purchased a home built plane and suffered a f
uel starvation > accident. Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questiona
bly > documented home built plane might not have a good handle on fuel > co
nsumption, fuel management, and flight planning for that plane is a > signi
ficant issue.> > Paul> XL fuselage> do not archive> > > At 10:46 AM 4/10/20
08, you wrote:> >I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a
> >stall/spin in the event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal, >
>yet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on > >re
cord, including the 601 that went down near Bryce, VA. I would > >love to b
e able to say that I would have the willpower to keep the > >nose down in t
he event of an engine stoppage, but the record is > >replete with pretty go
od pilots who didn't. We don't know that the > >fuel tanks were dry in this
accident, although what little evidence > >is available to outsiders sugge
sts that fuel exhaustion was a > >possibility, including reports of engine
noise changes from > >witnesses, no fire after the crash, and the proximity
of the crash > >site to a destination. Even if the cause of this accident
is not a > >stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it still is good to remember t
hat > >powered aircraft fly better when there is still fuel in the tanks, >
>ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when the engine > >stops,
the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially > >in a very li
========================> _
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_instantaccess_042008
Message 53
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Tim, I agree....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S
>
> Perhaps the anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard rather than face to
> face with a person makes some of you feel you can treat others on the list
> in a disrespectful manner. When people like Tommy Walker are driven by
> disgust to want to leave the list and gentlemen like Gig Giacona are
> treated in such a manner I wonder how long our list can survive before no
> one wants to participate. I'm also concerned for the newer members who
> are looking to those of us who been around for awhile for advice and
> leadership. What kind of example are we setting?
>
> I believe that everyone on this list should feel free to express their
> opinion and those that do not agree are welcome to respectfully disagree.
> When we start calling names and making accusations we accomplish nothing.
> For me, I would like to hear what people have to say after which I will
> draw my own conclusions.
>
> Tim Juhl
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176084#176084
>
>
>
Message 54
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
I could not agree more. Manage the risk, mitigate the risk, but don't just
glibly say that risk is part of building and flying, and then zoom to your
fate.> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:42:50 -0500> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad ne
o.com>> > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 05:20:08PM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:> >
OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good> >
flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the>
> guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another>
> engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part,
I> > am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.> > F
lying, like everything else in life, involves risk. The measure of a safe>
pilot is not in absolute avoidance of risk, but in management of risk to th
e> extent possible. We manage the risk of flying into a thunderstorm by get
ting> thorough weather briefings and using inflight resources such as XM we
ather> or Flight Watch. We manage the risk of fuel exhaustion by taking off
with a> known quantity of fuel, leaning the mixture and reducing power whe
n> practical, and keeping careful track of how long we've been flying. We>
manage the risk of getting lost by having and using navigational instrument
s> and navaids, and good old pilotage and good, current charts.> > There is
a risk of the Zodiac's wings falling off, just as there is with any> aircr
aft. What I, at least, am looking for is information to help me manage> tha
t risk. If the inflight breakups that have happened are due to pilot> error
, I want to know what that error is so I can train to avoid it. If> they're
due to poor construction, I'm comfortable that my aircraft will not> have
that problem and/or that it can be discovered with a good inspection.> If t
hey're due to inadequate design, the problem can be managed by a> suitable
modification.> > Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers
can have> structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual
> circumstances. One need look no farther than the V-tail Bonanza to see th
at.> I'm not slamming Chris Heintz at all; if I wasn't confident in his abi
lity,> I wouldn't have bought a Zodiac in the first place.> -- > Jay Maynar
d, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www
.tronguy.net> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55
===============> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_getintouch_042008
Message 55
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
What the hell are you talking about Andy? Other than the purchase of the kit I
have no vested interest in Zenith and I have never that I can remember ever discussed
a fleet of 601XLs with anyone.
I'm beginning to wonder if you don't have some interest in discrediting the 601
design.
You seem to be to quick to personally attack someone that simply disagrees with
you. And now you've gotten to the point of making stuff up to further your attacks.
I will point you to the List Usage Guidelines that I feel your last message violated.
"Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. "
ashontz wrote:
> EVERYONE, PLEASE NOTICE GIG HAS A PERSONLA VESTED MONETARY INTEREST IN SQUASHING
ANY AND ALL DOUBTS ABOUT THE WING INTEGRITY OF THE 601XL.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176090#176090
Message 56
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: airplane building, anyone? |
Lay off the polishing compound, you're making the rest of us look bad!!!
Great work, keep us posted. I am thinking about going sans paint as well, I can
only hope it will look that good!
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176089#176089
Message 57
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: airplane building, anyone? |
Yep, thanks for asking, Carlos. Gee, that skin looks like a mirror! Good job!
As for me, today I removed the fuselage pieces of my XL from the heated part of
my hangar and began assembling them in the main area. Only recently have the
temps in Michigan warmed up to the point where such a move is practical. Hopefully
the fuselage will soon take shape and perhaps I'll be able to join all
the parts together before the snow comes again.
Tim
Do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176091#176091
Message 58
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Wang Chung lives................... |
A few months ago I told the list about "Wang Chung".. I know one guy
was pissed at me and left the group, has not been back..
To refresh I d like to remind you about Wang. I was a member of the
Avid Flyer and Jabiru websites. A very good group of builders and
flyers. We each told of our experiences to help others and also for
that comrade.
After you have a few "years" of being a CFI, Commercial or Private with
hundreds if not thousands of flying / building hours, you kinda know
when someone makes statements which I ll call BULL SHIT.
Wang was a BS er.... He knew everything about Avids and Jabiru
engines. I watched my computer screen and Wang gave new builders his
expertise and guided them through the construction of their airplanes,,,
Something's just didn't seem right with his statements so I looked him
up on the FAA roster and he WASN'T THERE....
>From the list I met someone who actually knew Wang. Rick was Wangs
"friend" but they had to give up on a partnership in an airplane because
Wang really didn't know anything about building or flying. In fact Wang
was about to head out to the local airport for his FIRST airplane
ride...
So, here was this expert giving beginners the straight scoop on how to
build and fly...
Then I got a call from the Jabiru dealer ( we are friends ) and was
asked if I knew Wang. Apparently he was on that list telling everyone
how to install their Jabirus....
Then on to the KitFox website he went. More BS....
We have Wangs here on the Zenith site. If your giving info to the
list, know that what you say will be believed by some. You might even
cause that big accident with your expertise..
One last quick one, then I ll go.
I owned a Cessna 172 for about seven years. I taught people to fly the
thing as it was sooo easy to handle. On a website for newbie's I saw
this CFI telling students how to fly the 172.. Some statements were a
little out in left field so I asked him what was the recommended speed
to land the 172. He typed the list and said the best speed for the 172
in landing is 96 MPH.....
Yep 96.......
How many new students went off thinking god had said 96. ????
Enough of my blah blah blahhhhh....
Sorry to type on and on. It just gets me going when I see EXPERTS
telling everyone whats the right way to build and fly. ESPECIALLY when
their name is WANG...
Steve Weston
Message 59
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: airplane building, anyone? |
Yes I am ..
I am building a zodiac Xl and proud of it..
I intend to take my kids in it , just as nick H has his kids in it on a daily basis.
How far am I up to.. Well fitting the canopy, wires and FWF..
YES i WILL put a Jab3300 in it and fly it NVFR here down under.
I am Engines Airframe by trade and very happy with the XL design and I even have
wing lockers.
Now everyone Go Build and go fly..
Chris
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176097#176097
Message 60
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
What kind of example are you setting for new list members? Well I'll tell you Tim.
Ive been reading the list for almost a year now while I pick away at the beginning
of my 701 build and I'll tell you what. I'll most certainly look elsewhere
for information when I need help.
You know what the irony is? I really see this thing the other way around. Maybe
I'm the only one. It sure seems to me that Ive never really seen Andy be disrespectful
to anyone before this post. I have seen Andy attacked over and over
and for simply stating his opinions and ideas. I have seen him sarcastically shrug
these attacks off over and over. Ive have never seen a post in which Andy
pushes his ideas on anyone or claims them to be anything other than his own speculation.
Now i don't know Andy or any of you. But let me tell you how it really looks from
an entirely neutral point of view.
Gig Giacona- You slam this Andy guy constantly. You have used MANY forms of disrespect,
and snide comments. You join in his conversations with other people over
and over and attacked him completely unprovoked. You have never once made
an effort to prove his ideas wrong but clearly you disagree with his right to
have them. In fact you quite blatantly ASSUME that Andy does not know what he
is talking about! Read your own posts. Its all there. You dont have to save us
new builders from following in Andy's footsteps. Zenith already told us about
guys like him. You must ASSUME that new builders like me are pretty stupid and
just go modifying our planes according to what some guy on the internet says.
Frankly I'm surprised Andy has not had more to say before this. Hes the one who
gets repeatedly disrespected. I dont think he owes anyone an apology. He could
not have been more provoked.
Yup. This is probably not the place for me. See, Ive got IDEAS. Lots of Ideas,
and clearly ideas are not welcome here.
Its also fairly safe to assume that I dont know what Im talking about.
Very safe.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176101#176101
Message 61
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new member questions |
As have several other scratch builders, I spliced my rear spars to facilitate bending
shorter pieces and installed a doubler to join the halves. .The splice
doubler also serves to strengthen the area around the aileron linkage hole. I
don't know why you couldn't rivet a doubler of six inches or so to beef up a one
piece spar in that area. And no, I'm not an Astronaut, Engineer, Airplane designer,
or professional bowler, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one night.
Terry Turnquist
601XL-Plans
Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net> wrote: John
I was recently asking myself the same question. Andy Elliott recently
speculated on this list whether the hole resulted in a weak spot in the
rear spar. See:
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html
I looked at the wing of a friend's QBK (see attached photo). The hole (done
by the QBK factory) was right at the bend to the flange. But, it looked to
me that it could have been ~5-mm higher and still had good clearance for
the control rod. That said, the aileron was not yet mounted on the wing,
and it wasn't under load, so I could be wrong about that.
I decided to move my hole up ~5-mm, but when I cut the hole it ended up
only 3-mm higher than plans. Hopefully that will work fine.
Terry
At 07:10 AM 4/10/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Having just signed up last night, I'm not certain that I am posting this
>question properly, and would appreciate any pointers as to where I should
>request future inquiries. I am building a 601XL. Finished all of the
>tail,ailerons,flaps and now working on the right wing. I was looking for
>any comments about the 1 1/2 inch hole cut out of the rear channel for the
>aileron rod. The plans call for the center of the hole to be 20 mm up from
>the flange. The radius is 19 mm. Due to the curve taking up about 2 mm,
>this would cause the hole to cut down into the curve of the flange about 1
>mm. The plant in Mexico, Mo. said that that was OK, but the picture in my
>photo guide does not appear to show the hole cut down into the flange.
>Wondered if there is plenty of room to raise this hole up a mil or so or
>should I cut it into the curve? Thanks. John johnrich@everestkc.net
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
__________________________________________________
Message 62
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S |
Dear Matt.
I was about to write the same you did. Of course Zenith is not Boeing, but
when a plane crashes in the USA they might have the chance to go there and
check on site. 100 % with your comment,
Take care,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain.
2008/4/11, Matt Ronics <e_jocular@yahoo.com>:
>
>
> Some of you people seem to be happily willing to go down in a 601XL just
> to spite everyone else.
>
> Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes. Burt
> Rutan flew out and inspected a Varieze that crashed on account of a
> structural failure. As it turns out, the builder didn't follow the
> plans. Read for yourself here:
>
> http://www.ez.org/cp33-5.htm
>
> Note the sentence: "Prior to this accident the VariEze type had amassed
> approximately 150,000 hours flying without in-flight airframe failure, even
> though many of the aircraft have relatively poor workmanship."
>
> Has the 601XL fleet approached 150,000 hours?
>
> If I designed a plane that someone said broke-up in flight I would
> personally go inspect it. If I decided against going the first time,
> thinking it was a fluke, I would certainly go look at the second, or third,
> if such occured. I admire Heintz's engineering ability but I find him
> irresponsible here. Computers and sandbags don't always tell us everything
> we need to know.
>
> The Heintzs' shouldn't be leaving this up to the FAA to "investigate,"
> they should investigate these aircraft themselves. Why some of you stick
> your head in the sand while crapping on others, I do not know.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176033#176033
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|