---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:06 AM - Re: New lists (humor?) (kmccune) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: reflective tape for N numbers and tirm (Kevin Bonds) 3. 07:21 AM - Re: 701/801 List (John Goodings) 4. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: New lists (humor?) (Trainnut01@aol.com) 5. 09:43 AM - Re: reflective tape for N numbers and tirm (Gig Giacona) 6. 09:58 AM - Re: follow up question about 601 rear spar hole (Tim Juhl) 7. 11:00 AM - Re: follow up question about 601 rear spar hole (David Downey) 8. 12:00 PM - Fibreglass Tail Tip Trim (countzero) 9. 01:09 PM - Skyshop FWF 701 Coolant Route (Roland Smith) 10. 02:07 PM - Re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines (John Reinking) 11. 02:25 PM - Re: Fibreglass Tail Tip Trim (Bryan Martin) 12. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines (Jon Croke) 13. 02:54 PM - Re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines (Gig Giacona) 14. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines (Larry Hursh) 15. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Art Gibeaut) 16. 05:11 PM - Re: To Matt D (Tim Verthein) 17. 05:20 PM - Re:Corvair 701 On Kitplanes Blog (Tim Verthein) 18. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: 701/801 List (LRM) 19. 07:37 PM - exhaust stains (john H) 20. 09:12 PM - Re: exhaust stains (macleod@eagle.ca) 21. 09:30 PM - WATER DAMAGE (kiwiaviator) 22. 09:49 PM - Hole tolerances for my poor drilling?? (Andrewlieser) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New lists (humor?) From: "kmccune" Do not archive I'm sure the BS boys and gals will follow, but my main reason for saying thanks to Matt for making a 701 list, is that I will not have to filter out 601 messages. Try searching this archive for specific 701 info, bet you have a hard time finding just what you want. You will have to sift through a LOT of 601 stuff. Yes, basic construction techniques cross over, but they do with a couple of non CH designs too. Its a fine airplane, but if I were interested in it, I would be building one. I will probably look in here now and again as well. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176356#176356 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:12 AM PST US From: Kevin Bonds Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: reflective tape for N numbers and tirm Just don't let that paint guy sand your rivets flush. Seems like I remember that happening, to a guy, some time back. Your not going to paint are you Gig? That polishing job looks awesome! Every time I see a fine example like that, makes me want to go that route. I'm just not too excited about all that work. Kevin Bonds Gig Giacona wrote: > > I've got about a year old quote for prep, one color & stripe for $4500 > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:29 AM PST US From: John Goodings Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701/801 List For me, it would be a pity to split the 601 list off from the 701/801 list. Athough my 601HD has been flying for nearly 5 years, I still keep up with the Zenith list because, about once or twice each week, I learn something of importance from other builders/flyers, of both 601 and 701/801 aircraft. Although it is probably futile to say it, the problem would be cured if people would confine themselves to reasonably brief posts directly concerned with building and flying Zenith products. Is this too much to ask? John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Carp/Ottawa ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:54 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New lists (humor?) Kevin I'm a 601 builder and I'm glad you 701/801 builders are getting your own list for exactly the same reason you described. The messages I'm not interested in are easy yo delete but usually I have to open them (usually) before I know. Thanks Matt. Carroll Jernigan do not archive **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: reflective tape for N numbers and tirm From: "Gig Giacona" Kevin You must have my plane confused with another. Mine isn't polished. And yes there will be signs on the aircraft when at the paint shop that stress DO NOT SAND RIVETS. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176407#176407 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: follow up question about 601 rear spar hole From: "Tim Juhl" A little waviness in the edge is a cosmetic issue. You just don't want any nicks that could serve as the starting point for cracks. Even the edges of holes cut with a flycutter require some treatment to smooth them out. I would like to add that a flycutter is a very useful tool. I added a couple of additional inspection holes to each wing and of course had to cut the hole for the fuel tank filler. There is also the top hole for the nose gear support which needs to be carefully sized. The flycutter does a real nice job (I turn it by hand) and a Olfa knife (P800) is a great way to cut straight lines. With a project like the XL having the right tools can make a big difference both in time and quality. Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176412#176412 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:43 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: follow up question about 601 rear spar hole John; The basic desirable finish is one where the cut edge is a continuous smooth sheared surface. Any scratches or tool marks should be parallel to the edge cut. Just be sure that when you debur the edge made with the router that you do not leave scratches running across the edge. Thanks to all of you who made suggestions regarding the 1 1/2 hole in the rear spar channel for the aileron rod. I think I will move it up to the edge of the curve,make slightly smaller and probably add the doubler. I read a comment about being careful on cuts, to not leave any tiny "cracks" on edges as these could get larger over time. I don't a "fly cutter", as Zenith suggests, but have found it very useful to use my roto-zip tool to cut many parts, including holes and then smoothing out with the curve side of my file. These cuts appear to be quite smooth to me though not as if they were cut with a precision tool, as some tiny marks are left by the file. Does anyone have experience in this area? Is a filed piece that has no visible lines going out quite sufficient or am I being overly concerned about smoothness? Thanks again, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176296#176296 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Fibreglass Tail Tip Trim From: "countzero" Hi, I'm trimming the edges of the FTTs and I'm not sure how much I can take off. Drawing 6-X-1 shows the tip to tip width of the tail is 2.3m and the tail skeleton is 2.205m wide without the tips. I only need to trim 5mm off each FFT to tidy the edges up but the tail measures 2.345m wide with the tips in place as it is. The tail would then be 2.335m wide, too wide. To get the 2.3m width I would need to remove 22.5mm off each tip, that will not work. Any suggestions? Many thanks Rob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176424#176424 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fft_197.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Skyshop FWF 701 Coolant Route From: "Roland Smith" Sorry if this already got posted. I think I "glitched" it. Hose routing for the Skyshop radiator. The drawing (7-E-13CZ, bottom), for the 912ULS, shows the hose from the expansion tank entering the right lower port of the radiator and the hose to the water pump exiting the upper left of the radiator. However, the drawing for the 912 (80hp--top of same page) shows the opposite. The hose from the expansion tank goes to the upper left port of the radiator, the hose to the water pump exits the lower right of the radiator. Has anyone with the SKYSHOP FWF and 912 ULS routed the hose from the expansion tank to the upper left port of the radiator and the line to the water pump from the lower right port with success ? It certainly would seem far less cumersome. I have seen this discussion on previous posts but found no conclusions and I have emailed Skyshop. -------- 701 kit, anticipating Rotax 912 ULS and amphibious trike floats Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176434#176434 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:31 PM PST US From: John Reinking Subject: Zenith-List: re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines Good afternoon, Have been watching eBay and Barnstormers listings for used Rotax 912 (100hp uncertified) engines. Several have been described as having suffered from prop strikes, others not damaged due to other crash damage or whatever. Would any of you with experience with this engine offer any advice on having one of these rebuilt (lower engine price + rebuild cost) being anymore cost effective over a new engine? This is a new area for me and I'd really appreciate your counsuld. If there some specific sites for information about rebuilding vs new could some of you tell me the locations or URLs? Thanks. John Reinking, Woodinville, WA PS. I've learned my lesson per speculation and amateur-engineering. Leave that to the experts and spent my time trying to learn more about our joining the birds 'up there'. Thanks again. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:16 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fibreglass Tail Tip Trim Go ahead and trim them for a good fit and don't worry if it's a little bit wider than the plans show, it won't hurt anything. The extra width will just give you slightly more pitch stability. The early 601HD's didn't have the fiberglas tips, they were added to improve pitch stability. > > Hi, > > I'm trimming the edges of the FTTs and I'm not sure how much I can > take off. Drawing 6-X-1 shows the tip to tip width of the tail is > 2.3m and the tail skeleton is 2.205m wide without the tips. > > I only need to trim 5mm off each FFT to tidy the edges up but the > tail measures 2.345m wide with the tips in place as it is. The tail > would then be 2.335m wide, too wide. > > To get the 2.3m width I would need to remove 22.5mm off each tip, > that will not work. Any suggestions? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:36 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines John, my experience goes something like this: 1) Dont assume anything about the condition of these motors (they could be great - they could be real bad, and everything in between) 2) If an engine has been involved in an accident and you do not PERSONALLY know that the prop never struck anything, then you need to get a crank and prop shaft runout test. Quite simple but if you aren't going to do this yourself - any Rotax mechanic can do it for about $100 This simply checks the runout of both the prop shaft and crankshaft (must remove gearbox) to see if they were bent (using a typical runout dial indicator). The specs are published in the Rotax manual. See if the seller will let you have this done before purchase. 3) If your engine PASSES both runout checks, it may be worth it to purchase it and then send it to either Lockwood or Leading Edge Airfoils (repair depot) for final checkout (call them first for price) of the engine. If it FAILS this runout test - there is a good chance you should walk away - unless you can do Rotax engine repairs yourself... otherwise you may find that bottom end repairs (crank) will cost at least $5K... and probably more... so with current engine prices you have to do the analysis of cost of repair vs new....also, if the engine was overheated, the heads often warp and these are really expensive to replace.... 4) These damaged engines are perfect to keep as part spares (and are often snatched up by repair centers) as their 'good' parts are well worth many $$$ for the used part repair market. This makes a lot of sense (and money) for that purpose. 5) without this or similar analysis, you are simply taking a roll of the dice.... my last suggestion is to call a repair center (Lockwood, etc) and discuss this with them... they have no magic ball BUT can give you prices for teardown/analysis/testing... It is tempting to pick up an engine that cost $20K for a mere $5K .... but do your homework first! Been there, done that, sort of! Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Reinking" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines > > Good afternoon, > > Have been watching eBay and Barnstormers listings for used Rotax 912 > (100hp uncertified) engines. Several have been described as having > suffered from prop strikes, others not damaged due to other crash damage ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines From: "Gig Giacona" The main problem in buying a damaged engine and rebuilding is if you don't know how much damage is there. So, the only safe thing to do is get a cost for a worst possible case rebuild. reinkings(at)comcast.net wrote: > Good afternoon, > > Have been watching eBay and Barnstormers listings for used Rotax 912 > (100hp uncertified) engines. Several have been described as having > suffered from prop strikes, others not damaged due to other crash damage > or whatever. Would any of you with experience with this engine offer > any advice on having one of these rebuilt (lower engine price + rebuild > cost) being anymore cost effective over a new engine? This is a new > area for me and I'd really appreciate your counsuld. If there some > specific sites for information about rebuilding vs new could some of you > tell me the locations or URLs? Thanks. John Reinking, > Woodinville, WA PS. I've learned my lesson per speculation and > amateur-engineering. Leave that to the experts and spent my time > trying to learn more about our joining the birds 'up there'. Thanks > again. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176451#176451 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:49 PM PST US From: Larry Hursh Subject: Re: Zenith-List: re: ROTAX 912 Used Engines Hi John, I've been watching that one on eBay from Florida also. I asked the seller if there was a prop strike involved. He admitted to me he honestly didn't know. He bought the engine from the guy that trashed his plane. Here is what he'd written back to me: Sir, I really don't know. I bought this engine and panel 2-years ago 2ND hand with the idea of buying a CH 701 kit. I was not present during the accident, nor was the pilot present when I bought the engine. I was told He was landing in a pasture when the landing gear snagged a power line. Then the plane was snatched backwards and at this point the pilot (former fighter pilot) killed the engine. Then the plane nosed over and hung for a second or two then dropped down about 10 feet and hung again. Then the wire broke and the plane fell down 10 more feet into a plowed firebreak. The pilot unstrapped his harness and stepped out completely unharmed. So it hit the ground with the engine off. That said; when I picked up the engine I saw one broken prop blade(3-blade composite). So I don?t know if hit the wire and broke or if it broke upon hitting the ground. This engine has the slipper clutch in the gearbox that is supposed to cushion the crankshaft from prop strike. I hope this is helpful. With that being said, I would probably NOT attempt to buy this particular engine because he knows little or nothing about it. I'm afraid by the time you purchase it, ship it to you, and possibly have to have it rebuilt, you will be spending 3/4 the cost of a new one. I personally am building the 110 HP Corvair. I'm expecting to come in way less than 1/2 the price of a new Rotax or Jabiru too. If you don't want to build it yourself, there are people that do that sort of thing. If your interested, contact me off the forum and I will give you several reputable names that do. Hope I've helped you out some. Oh, another word of caution, I've heard (but not seen for myself) Rotax has a recall going on with their redrives. I don't know what is involved in it. You would have to research this more to find out. Regards, Larry Hursh CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning) (N601LL Reserved) SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com Keep your eyes skyward - always! __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:28 PM PST US From: Art Gibeaut Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Well said Tim! That's why most of us have remained silent. We're still here, and our prayers are with the pilot and his family. Sometimes, saying nothing, says more. Do not archive. --- On Fri, 4/11/08, Tim Juhl wrote: > From: Tim Juhl > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, April 11, 2008, 2:46 PM > > > gnuse, > > Let's face it... people are frightened. We want to > accept the assurances from Zenith that the design is sound > but then something happens to stir things up again. What > you are seeing on this list is the broad scope of how > humans react to their fears and uncertainty. We certainly > mean no disrespect to the deceased and feel for his family > in friends. I suspect that in our imagination we all > place ourselves in that cockpit during those final moments. > > People can be forgiven for wanting answers but wild > speculation is not helpful. We must be patient and let the > experts do their jobs. Don't believe for one minute > that the folks at Zenith don't want answers too. > Remember that one of the reasons we all chose to build > Zenith aircraft was because of the great folks running the > company. > > We all need to remember that while at such times it is > important to be able to talk with others who might > understand our concerns, at the same time we may be sending > an unintended message to others who thru the internet happen > to come across our comments. For myself, if I have said > anything that offends, I offer my sincere apology. > > Tim Juhl > Do not archive > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on fuselage > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176234#176234 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:37 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Zenith-List: re: To Matt D Yeah, there ya go! Be sure to keep away those interested but haven't bought a manual yet. Keep away those (like me) who have been following the list for nearly 2 years, who have been to the rudder workshop, and have been saving their $$ to move on, while at the same time trying to learn. There ya go....maybe you can find some MORE ways to make flying even more directed to the elite! Hey..Matt..I'm in on the new 701/801 list (if I'm allowed w/o my serial number) Seperating the lists is the best idea I've heard today. Tim in Bovey "Time: 09:15:25 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: To Matt D If you do start a new list for each model Zenith you might want to include only people who have a serial number assigned to them. Example: Steve Weston # 6-6960 This will keep the experts who dont have a clue AWAY from real builders..... SW" __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:54 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Zenith-List: re:Corvair 701 On Kitplanes Blog The amazing this is, for those who would like BOTH, they CAN subscribe to BOTH! Amazing, ain't it? Tim in Bovey **Who does not have a serial number yet. Have completed rudder workshop. Have purchased Corvair Conversion manual for engine. Has N number reserved. Has yet to offer anyone else any building advice** "Gus's 701 is featured http://www.kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/ If this was two separate groups you might not have found out about that. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR" __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:03 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701/801 List Look at it this way John. You can be on both lists or more if you want. But for some of us who only want to be on the list that interest us without having to receive topics that do not interest us, it a good thing. We now have that option of choosing while people like yourself can still enjoy both. Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Goodings" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:17 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701/801 List > > For me, it would be a pity to split the 601 list off from the 701/801 > list. Athough my 601HD has been flying for nearly 5 years, I still keep > up with the Zenith list because, about once or twice each week, I learn > something of importance from other builders/flyers, of both 601 and > 701/801 aircraft. Although it is probably futile to say it, the problem > would be cured if people would confine themselves to reasonably brief > posts directly concerned with building and flying Zenith products. Is > this too much to ask? > > John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Carp/Ottawa > > > -- > Release Date: 4/12/2008 11:32 AM > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:29 PM PST US From: john H Subject: Zenith-List: exhaust stains Hi List Anyone know of a good product for cleaning exhaust stains off the bottom of the plane? Thanks John _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up'use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. L earn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Ref resh_skydrive_packup_042008 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: exhaust stains From: macleod@eagle.ca John: For my last plane I used Dove detergent. It seemed to get 98% of the stains. For the remainder I used whiteboard cleaner. It removed everything except the paint. Mike 601XL - Rotax engine in, cowling on > > Hi List > Anyone know of a good product for cleaning exhaust stains off the bottom > of the plane? > Thanks > John > > _________________________________________________________________ > Pack up or back upuse SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. > Learn how. > hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: WATER DAMAGE From: "kiwiaviator" I started a plans built CH701 last year and in the meantime have moved to another country. The 6061-T6 sheet material was well packaged and crated by the moving company but it has taken me a few months to get my workshop setup and I have just opened the crate to find a considerable amount of water inside. The sheets now have a lot of surface corrosion. Should I try and recover the sheet or try for insurance and discard? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176496#176496 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Hole tolerances for my poor drilling?? From: "Andrewlieser" Hey everyone yesterday I was drilling the holes out between the doubler angle and the rudder spar. Long story short one of my clamps slipped by a fraction and caused some of my holes 2 of my holes to be 2 mm off or enlongated by the same amount. Will the rivet still seat right in these holes or is it time to scrap those pieces? Thanks, Andrew -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176499#176499 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.