<ÿÿÿÿbjecÿÿÿÿ/b><ÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿ>Re:ÿÿÿÿ AcrÿÿÿÿCanoÿÿÿÿoop ÿÿÿÿOtheÿÿÿÿoughÿÿÿÿu><ÿÿÿÿle><ÿÿÿÿe boÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿlpadÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿlspaÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿth="ÿÿÿÿ"><ÿÿÿÿont ÿÿÿÿ=3 fÿÿÿÿ"timÿÿÿÿew rÿÿÿÿ, tiÿÿÿÿ colÿÿÿÿ#000ÿÿÿÿ>Froÿÿÿÿ/td>ÿÿÿÿwidtÿÿÿÿ5%" ÿÿÿÿn="lÿÿÿÿ><ÿÿÿÿ>"Giÿÿÿÿaconÿÿÿÿlt;<ÿÿÿÿef="ÿÿÿÿto:wÿÿÿÿaconÿÿÿÿddenÿÿÿÿ.netÿÿÿÿ.giaÿÿÿÿ@sudÿÿÿÿink.ÿÿÿÿ/a>&ÿÿÿÿ/i><ÿÿÿÿ/fonÿÿÿÿtd><ÿÿÿÿhttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178709#178709
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to the
forum.
If you want me to send them to you email me at:
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Maybe someone else will have better luck.
The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard.
the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the
report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section.
I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe
the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom.
They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine.
I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach
fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
Regards,
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out
a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on
the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements
of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
>
>
>**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
>listings at AOL Autos.
>(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Hi, Bob,
Your AI is right. The rule is, if the bolt/nut is in tension (i.e., torqued
tight, no rotation) then locknuts are okay, but when ANY rotation is
present, as with clevis bolts, a castellated nut and cotter pin are
required. Makes sense.
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet Gun Recommendation? |
The Zenith riveter nosepieces have been ground out concave, so as to form
the "button-head" on flathead rivets. Sizes are, as you said, standard.Blue
skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
I've received the pics from Don and will pass them on to Matt for upload to
the photo sharing area of the forum. Generally it takes Matt a few days to
do this.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file
to the forum.
If you want me to send them to you email me at:
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Maybe someone else will have better luck.
The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard.
the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in
the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail
section.
I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I
believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom.
They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine.
I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the
attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
Regards,
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
DO NOT ARCHIVE
If you send the zip to me, I will put it on my ftp server with a link so
that others can download it.
Jim
PLAV8R wrote:
>
> I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to
the forum.
> If you want me to send them to you email me at:
> donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
> Maybe someone else will have better luck.
>
> The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard.
> the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the
report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section.
> I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe
the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom.
> They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine.
> I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach
fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
>
> Regards,
> Don
>
> --------
> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
> Prior Lake, Minnesota
> Cessna 175 N7656M
> Cessna 140 N90123
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to the
Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon.
After reviewing them they seem to point to a different failure mode that
the pictures I have seen from the Polk City accident. In the Polk city
accident the wings were still attached to the fuselage but were bent
along the spar. In this accident the wings aren't bent but rather are
separated from the fuselage and one picture shows the wing and the
mangled middle portion of the spar together. The other wing spar is
broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the top spar cap and the bottom
cap is missing from the wing.
The fuselage looks broken apart and separated just in front of the main
gear channel. It looks like the whole thing just came apart at that
point and around the spar carrythrough. Pretty scary looking.
It will be interesting to see what the NTSB has to say.
John Davis
601XL - Jab 3300
PLAV8R wrote:
>
> I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to
the forum.
> If you want me to send them to you email me at:
> donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
> Maybe someone else will have better luck.
>
> The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard.
> the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the
report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section.
> I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe
the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom.
> They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine.
> I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach
fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
>
> Regards,
> Don
>
> --------
> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
> Prior Lake, Minnesota
> Cessna 175 N7656M
> Cessna 140 N90123
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
You can download the zip from here:
www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
Jim
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
John
The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom
cap? I am puzzled by this statement.
Kevin Bonds
John Davis wrote:
>
> Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to
> the Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon.
>
> The other wing spar is broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the
> top spar cap and the bottom cap is missing from the wing.
>
>
> John Davis
> 601XL - Jab 3300
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with
it out the plane when it went. Neat.
jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote:
> You can download the zip from here:
>
> www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
>
> Jim
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178747#178747
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Hi Kevin,
If you look at the left wing in pictures 30 & 33 you'll see the bottom
spar cap is missing. I'm assuming it was ripped off in the accident but
you never know. The top spar cap is fractured at the innermost bolt hole.
It was certainly a catastrophic event to cause both wings to separate,
the fuselage to break away from the firewall forward, etc.
John
Kevin Bonds wrote:
>
> John
>
> The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom
> cap? I am puzzled by this statement.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> John Davis wrote:
>>
>> Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to
>> the Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon.
>>
>> The other wing spar is broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the
>> top spar cap and the bottom cap is missing from the wing.
>>
>>
>> John Davis
>> 601XL - Jab 3300
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Do Not Archive
I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement.
ashontz wrote:
> So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with
it out the plane when it went. Neat.
>
>
> jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote:
> > You can download the zip from here:
> >
> > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
> >
> > Jim
>
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178748#178748
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
It should say bottom cap was torn from the wing and still attached to
the center section carry through.
Kevin Bonds wrote:
> The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom
> cap? I am puzzled by this statement.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
The facts will come.
How long have you been saying this now? Just curious.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Because of the proximity to SnF there's little doubt that better information
will come from this accident than the previous ones. And if not better at least
more.
>
> As many have said let's not guess or listen to untrained eye-witnesses. The facts
will come.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178750#178750
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
>
> I've received the pics from Don and will pass them on to Matt for upload
> to
> the photo sharing area of the forum. Generally it takes Matt a few days to
> do this.
>
> -- Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:46 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
>
> <donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>
>
> I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file
> to the forum.
> If you want me to send them to you email me at:
> donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
> Maybe someone else will have better luck.
>
> The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard.
> the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in
> the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail
> section.
> I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area.
> I
> believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom.
> They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine.
> I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the
> attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
>
> Regards,
> Don
>
> --------
> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
> Prior Lake, Minnesota
> Cessna 175 N7656M
> Cessna 140 N90123
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
> The top spar cap is fractured at the innermost bolt hole
Well, relative to the fuselage it is actually the outermost bolt.
-- Craig
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is
subject to rotation.
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back
out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion
directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the
correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming
undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else.
There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their
shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points
but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
>
>
>**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
>listings at AOL Autos.
>(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
> Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
For the photo share I just send files to pictures@matronics.com (as
described at http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/). Matt's direct address is
dralle@matronics.com
-- Craig
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
As do I.
Also I forgot to say how sorry I am for your loss PLAV8R. And thank you
for sharing the photos.These photos may help us understand what happened.
Kevin Bonds
MHerder wrote:
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement.
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag the
pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates the pin can
fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the same set up for the
rudder cables and after a few pins came out they advised NOT to us castle
nuts in that situation.
43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is
subject to rotation.
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back
out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion
directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the
correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming
undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else.
There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their
shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points
but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
One question I have is where are the ailerons? I can see the hinges and all
the holes in them on both wings but there seems to be no damage to the hinge
at all. It was like it just came off the hinge. You would think that if it
were ripped off there would be some of the metal left on the hinge. clearly the
loss of a aileron would have made the plane uncontrollable. Could they have
used A4's instead of A5's???
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
To be exact I posted that on Tue Apr 08, 2008 @ 6:13 pm. What's your point? I stand
by the statement.
A quick look at the NTSB database shows that the most recent US fatal accident
to have any report other than preliminary happened on 12/15/2007 and that is a
"factual" report on the 701 that went down when the pilot was buzzing his house.
The most recent fatal US accident that has a "Probable Cause" synopsis happened
on 10/26/07 and it was a glider that stalled and spun in.
The point is to show that it takes a while for the NTSB to to report stuff if there
is an investigation. The one exception to this is a accident that happened
when a line guy walked into a prop on a parked Pilatus PC-12. That accident
happened on 1/3/08 and the probable cause was done by 3/31/08.
Oh, BTW...I have noticed that you wussed out on helping with what was your idea
to get an independent engineer to look at the design. Are you going to make up
some reason and blame me for that as well?
ashontz wrote:
> The facts will come.
>
> How long have you been saying this now? Just curious.
>
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
> > Because of the proximity to SnF there's little doubt that better information
will come from this accident than the previous ones. And if not better at least
more.
> >
> > As many have said let's not guess or listen to untrained eye-witnesses. The
facts will come.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178763#178763
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
No, I think it is a pretty good example of where Andy is coming from.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
MHerder wrote:
> Do Not Archive
>
> I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar
with it out the plane when it went. Neat.
> >
> >
> > jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote:
> > > You can download the zip from here:
> > >
> > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178766#178766
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Notice photo 019. If the rear spar attachment failed first it could
cause this kind of cataclysmic failure of the wing and forward spar. The
main spar is not designed for that type of loading (ie twisting).
This is the problem with sand bag tests. The static test only stresses
the spar with the type of loading it was designed to handle. My point
is, one can not assume the problem is with the strength of the main
spar. Beefing up the main spar would not help in this situation at all..
I can only hope that the NTSB can resolve this. This is one case where
the sequence of events is extremely important.
Jim
James E. Lanier wrote:
> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>
> You can download the zip from here:
>
> www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
>
> Jim
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come
off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle
nut without the pin.
So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should
be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely
to fall off.
How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767
Message 49
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Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something unorthodox like a
split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:02 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to
come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a
castle nut without the pin.
So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad
there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that
is very likely to fall off.
How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
There are AN safety clips that look like safety pins used to secure casle n
uts when the nuts are to be periodically removed. I have them on my Kiyfox
on the wing attach bolts which can be removed so that the wings swing back
for transportation.
George May
601XL 912s> From: craig@craigandjean.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Su
bject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:15
ndjean.com>> > A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something un
orthodox like a> split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg.> > -- Craig
> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.co
m> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:02 PM> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> S
ubject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> > --> Zenith-List message poste
d by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>> > It seems to me that we c
an be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to> come off sooner or lat
er and is only slightly less likely to back off than a> castle nut without
the pin.> > So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pi
n is bad> there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using
a nut that> is very likely to fall off.> > How about some type of cap for t
he castle nut that protects the pin?> > --------> W.R. "Gig" Giac
ona> 601XL Under Construction> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewt
=================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=
5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing, that was
my point.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> No, I think it is a pretty good example of where Andy is coming from.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> MHerder wrote:
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> > I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement.
> >
> >
> > ashontz wrote:
> > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar
with it out the plane when it went. Neat.
> > >
> > >
> > > jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote:
> > > > You can download the zip from here:
> > > >
> > > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178773#178773
Message 53
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Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178775#178775
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Guys you don't use a castle nut on your seat belt attach or the canopy bolt
or a number of other places that you don't tighten the nut I would agree that
there might be hundreds of ways to address this issue but to say the nut will
fall off eventually is a bit of a stretch. I liked the idea of looping the
pin but a safety type pin would seem a bit better. Or I guess you could simply
spot weld the nut on. That last one was a joke.
Do not archive
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet Gun Recommendation? |
Thanks for all of your input.
Mike
--------
Awaiting delivery of RANS S-19 Empennage Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178779#178779
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Randy.
Ya know , It MIGHT be better if it was the other way around, if you HAD to
commit to "ARCHIVE" you would be saying that you thought the comments you
just made were worthy of swelling the pile of stuff we already have.
I also would REALLY like to be able to delete SOME of my OWN posts as I've
forgotten to post "do not archive" MANY times.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:11 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: DNA
> <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Hello Listers:
>
> Don't forget to add "do not archive" to posts as appropriate. A lot of
> what
> I've seen lately doesn't need to sweell the archives. As above, I lead
> off
> with it.
>
> Randy, Las Vegas
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think).
The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that
the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the
AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178782#178782
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_028_140.jpg
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
That won't happen if you "navy" the cotter pins. You bend the legs all
the way around until they meet the loop in the head of the cotter pin,
then cut off the excess, and bend them down tight. (My old A&P showed me
that one.) The most prehensile toes, shod or not, can't snag what isn't
snaggable.
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com<mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag
the pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates
the pin can fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the
same set up for the rudder cables and after a few pins came out they
advised NOT to us castle nuts in that situation.
43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the
fitting is subject to rotation.
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
<amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion
could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the
is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns,
etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be
problems with pins coming undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder
cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates
everywhere else. There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with
their shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle
nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have
the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack
points but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
at AOL Autos<http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851>.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote:
> Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing,
> that was my point.
I'm not going to presume to speak for the others, but:
> > > ashontz wrote:
> > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the
> > > > center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat.
I would hardly apply the term "Neat." to such a situation, especially when
it was a part of the deaths of two people.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 60
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| Subject: | Sun N Fun Thank You |
Fellow Zenith Builders,
Do not archive
Please allow me to thank all those who helped with the Zenith 701 known as
Angel-1 in the basic Sheet Metal Workshop at Sun n fun recently.
I would like to list all of you by name, but I'm afraid I'd miss someone. It
was a great learning experience for all of us. We didn't get it finished,
but we knew that going in. Our objective was to expose aviation enthusiests
of all ages to actually working on a kit aircraft. In that we succeded.
We will update you from time to time as the airplane progresses forward.
Thanks again for your help.
Jim Hoak - 601HD
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Of course, you could also insert the bolt from inside, so the
castellated nut is under the footbar, thereby unreachable by foot,
Paul Rodriguez Original Message -----
From: Gig Giacona<mailto:wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
<wr.giacona@suddenlink.net<mailto:wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>>
It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is
going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to
back off than a castle nut without the pin.
So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is
bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a
nut that is very likely to fall off.
How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR<http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Of course on a rod end the nut clamps the ball of the connecting rod tight. The
only motion is between the ball and the socket. The front of the steering rod
(at least on my plans) uses a rod end.
As a point of interest for those that will only use a nylock nut once, I made a
homemade hole cutter.. This tools used a 3/16 bolt with a locknut as the pivot
for the center of the hole. This was one of those 1/2 height nuts, not even
full thread. I cut every lightening hole on the airframe with that tool using
the same nut and bolt. The nut faced aggressive turning motion with every
one of the holes that I cut, including all the rib lightening holes. The nut
never backed off. It must have been on and off a hundred times.
Anyway I'm comfortable using them twice, as (like Gus mentioned) they haven't been
over torqued.
Dan
>
>
> "amyvega2005(at)earthlink."]not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion,
the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used
where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns,
etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems
with pins coming undone.
>
> Juan
>
> --
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178805#178805
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Gig.
I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely
to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock
nut, so they don't back off.
I would think the manufacture of the nuts would do vibration tests that lasted
thousands of hours with loose nuts to prove the design.
You could always use a bushing, such as on the rudder, then the bolt is torqued
against the bushing allowing you to use a lock nut.
Mark S.
701/912ULS
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:02:15 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come
off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle
nut without the pin.
So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should
be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely
to fall off.
How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
This girl is sharp..... The thing that keeps coming up in my mind is the
se pics and god only know how many others are out there and if not for D
onald providing them we would still not be viewing them. As builders of
experimental planes we know these machines intimately. We can see things
even the best NTSB guys might overlook, because we have been there, don
e that. Keeping pics, documents and other critical evidence hidden away
from us seems counterproductive at best and deadly at worst.. Is it just
me being paranoid???
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32"
I think). The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--c
ould it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the
last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5
-16A?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178782#178782
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_028_140.jpg
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Click here and get the professional resume help you need.
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deCcgBeWhLirQ0kYE5ExZnvk7mW0a/
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I have no experiance with this, but post crash evidence has to be difficult for
even experts to determine a cause. We've all seen engines ripped out of race cars
and cars torn in half but that doesn't mean the car was poorly designed or
constructed. I know these are difficult times for we XL builders, but I think
we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything from these disasters.
I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight inspection
fanatic!!
Do not archive
Terry Turnquist
601-XL Plans
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote:
> Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing,
> that was my point.
I'm not going to presume to speak for the others, but:
> > > ashontz wrote:
> > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the
> > > > center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat.
I would hardly apply the term "Neat." to such a situation, especially when
it was a part of the deaths of two people.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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|
| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Seat belts aren't safety of flight items, control cable connections are.
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> Guys you don't use a castle nut on your seat belt attach or the canopy bolt
> or a number of other places that you don't tighten the nut ...
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 05:11:25PM -0700, Terry Turnquist wrote:
> I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight
> inspection fanatic!!
Okkay...so let's see if we can do some good between now and whenever we
learn a probable cause: What should we inspect on preflight/postflight,
above and beyond the usual?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Well, the bolt didn't break. I doubt that was the cause. More importantly, the
center spar cap sheared away.
Sabrina wrote:
> Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think).
The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be
that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the
AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A?
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178818#178818
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Those 4 bolts hold the wings to the aircraft. This is the only craft where the
center spar was pulled out of the craft (that I know of.) If the other 8 bolts
are torqued properly, a pre-flight of the wings would indicate a solid wing
but the rubber wing root fairing would hide movement between the wing and the
fuselage. It could easily lead to fatigue failure of the 6-B13-1 uprights or
overstress 6-W7-2, the rear spar root doubler. See photo 19 (as pointed out
earlier.)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178822#178822
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_019_116.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
t>
>Seat belts aren't safety of flight items, control cable connections are
.
You have not flown in my "beast" yet. !!!! no seatbelts = you are end
ing up in the back seat..
Jus kiddin and do not archive
_____________________________________________________________
Start a career as a pharmacy assistant. Click here for more information
.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vg0IABouhaaQNFkfUt
Gu4QupMIhvNJKKTy1t3kU8C6BewEy/
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
PLAV8R wrote:
> I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach
fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants.
>
> Regards,
> Don
My fuselage shipped with the "new BRS brackets". Front ones double as engine mount
brackets and canopy hinges. Rear ones are attached to the longeron in the
baggage area (but did not ship with the kit).
Here is a drawing of them:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/Zenith601XLBRSBrackets/photo#5190655085433945250
Patrick
XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178823#178823
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Hi Andy,
The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have
to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep
it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to
Rotax and 0-200.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
>
> Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b]
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything
Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 601XL. The NTSB guys are
not.
The one thing that we all can be 100% certain of is that the final NTSB report
will be as useless as every other NTSB report has been on this matter.
I rarely use the term "100%" for anything, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely
certain. It's up to us - the 601XL experts.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
N63PZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178827#178827
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I know, I had a made, I guess a snide remark, about the entire damn center spar
being ripped out of the fuselage, that Gig didn't seem to like very much and
called me on. What I was getting at in that remark was, "Holy cow, the entire
center spar got ripped out and ripped apart the fuselage", but apparently that
was lost in translation on him.
This all occurred while these poor people were in the pattern apparently. And per
his son, he was an excellent, diligent, healthy pilot no less. And I'm going
to guess the wife probably knew how to fly too if the sons are all pilots. Sounds
like a pilot family to me. And even if she wasn't a pilot, she probably
knew at least the basics. Point being, if the guy had some sort of medical problem
out of nowhere, there was in all probability a co-pilot sitting right next
to him. Which would lead you to believe, sumpin' aint right with that particular
plane anyway. Especially condidering the son doesn't think an explosion occurred.
Apparently this is the plane where the rear spar bolts weren't installed.
Who knows, maybe, maybe not.
Sabrina wrote:
> Those 4 bolts hold the wings to the aircraft. This is the only craft where
the center spar was pulled out of the craft (that I know of.) If the other 8
bolts are torqued properly, a pre-flight of the wings would indicate a solid wing
but the rubber wing root fairing combined with the spring gear would mask
movement between the wing and the fuselage. It could easily lead to fatigue failure
of the 6-B13-1 uprights or overstress 6-W7-2, the rear spar root doubler.
See photo 19 (as pointed out earlier.)
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178830#178830
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Thanks joe Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash
>
>> Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
>
> For the photo share I just send files to pictures@matronics.com (as
> described at http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/). Matt's direct address
> is
> dralle@matronics.com
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Sun N Fun Thank You |
Jim,
Had a good time and took some pictures of the progress we made that week. Here
is the link:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ron.lendon/SnF2008
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178834#178834
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Hi Joe,
I am not trying to be negative. In the Yuba City situation I think that the
firewall forward and the aft fuselage would have made the trip fine. However,
the occupants would have exited the aircraft from the bottom.
My parents seat-belts were still connected , I believe they exited from the bottom
of the fuselage after the wings departed the aircraft.
If it were not for the circumstances, maybe the BRS would have worked fine.
Regards,
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178848#178848
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| Subject: | Re: Really bad news....S&F crash |
Hi Patrick,
Made a mistake......You are not Joe.....You are Patrick...One of my brothers
names.
My apologies.
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178850#178850
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Hi Andy,
My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight. The
radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any phase of
flight.
Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some answers
or good information.
This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago.
Thanks again, you guys are great.
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I wonder if any flight data was recovered from the GPS?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
Hi Andy,
My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight.
The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any
phase of flight.
Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some
answers or good information.
This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago.
Thanks again, you guys are great.
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857
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