---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/23/08: 80 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 (Jaybannist@cs.com) 3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Jay Maynard) 4. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 (Jay Maynard) 5. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 (William Dominguez) 6. 08:09 AM - Re: New to the list (kkinney) 7. 08:14 AM - wings (john butterfield) 8. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: New to the list (James E. Lanier) 9. 09:10 AM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PLAV8R) 10. 09:16 AM - Re: Zodiac XL - Maneuvering SpeedZodiac XL - Maneuvering Speed (John Reinking) 11. 09:27 AM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Joe Scheibinger) 12. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Craig Payne) 13. 10:02 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 (Gig Giacona) 14. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: New to the list (Jay Maynard) 15. 10:09 AM - Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts (DaveG601XL) 16. 10:14 AM - DNA (Randy L. Thwing) 17. 10:25 AM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PLAV8R) 18. 10:33 AM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PatrickW) 19. 10:45 AM - Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 20. 11:05 AM - Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts (LarryMcFarland) 21. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (n801bh@netzero.com) 22. 11:40 AM - Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts (DaveG601XL) 23. 11:42 AM - Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts (Gig Giacona) 24. 11:48 AM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PLAV8R) 25. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Juan Vega) 26. 12:55 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Jim McBurney) 27. 12:55 PM - Re: Rivet Gun Recommendation? (Jim McBurney) 28. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Craig Payne) 29. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (James E. Lanier) 30. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (John Davis) 31. 01:38 PM - CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier) 32. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Kevin Bonds) 33. 02:03 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ashontz) 34. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (John Davis) 35. 02:07 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (MHerder) 36. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (John Warren) 37. 02:17 PM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (ashontz) 38. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Southern Reflections) 39. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Craig Payne) 40. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (SABorns@aol.com) 41. 02:36 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Craig Payne) 42. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Kevin Bonds) 43. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 44. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 45. 02:49 PM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Gig Giacona) 46. 02:54 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Gig Giacona) 47. 03:01 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier) 48. 03:04 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona) 49. 03:13 PM - () 50. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Craig Payne) 51. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (george may) 52. 03:40 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ashontz) 53. 03:47 PM - 601HD (ashontz) 54. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 55. 04:06 PM - Re: Rivet Gun Recommendation? (mwtucker) 56. 04:08 PM - Re: DNA (John Bolding) 57. 04:08 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Sabrina) 58. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. () 59. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 60. 04:27 PM - Sun N Fun Thank You () 61. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. () 62. 04:56 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (leinad) 63. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Mark Sherman) 64. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (n801bh@netzero.com) 65. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Terry Turnquist) 66. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Bryan Martin) 67. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 68. 05:56 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ashontz) 69. 06:08 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Sabrina) 70. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (n801bh@netzero.com) 71. 06:09 PM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PatrickW) 72. 06:13 PM - Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland) 73. 06:22 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PatrickW) 74. 06:22 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ashontz) 75. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (Southern Reflections) 76. 06:40 PM - Re: Sun N Fun Thank You (Ron Lendon) 77. 07:37 PM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PLAV8R) 78. 07:40 PM - Re: Really bad news....S&F crash (PLAV8R) 79. 08:15 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R) 80. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:41 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same problem with the 601. The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:39 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 Gary, Right on Amigo! It is, as we say North of the border, the blind leading the blind. And guess where that leads. Jay in Dallas Do not archive Gary Gower wrote: > Hello No-name (unsigned messages), > > Please, Lets hold on a minute. First there is no Official Confirmation about a wing failure in this particular accident, in the first place. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:32 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 09:04:15PM -0700, Gary Gower wrote: > Do you have the NTSB report? is not in this page: The NTSB has not released a probable cause for the accident that cost PLAV8R's parents their lives as yet. That's the AMD Zodiac that crashed in Yuba City, N158MD. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:32 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 08:39:29PM -0700, Matt Ronics wrote: > For reasons some people such as yourself can't understand, some of us have > professional and/or personal reasons not plaster our name on the internet. As a minor celebrity, I've got as much reason as anyone to want to divorce myself from my words. My sense of integrity does not allow me to do so. > I'm not a troll and I don't work in the airplane business. Prove it. > I'm not trying to kid myself and others that the half-finished XL in my > garage is safe because--I don't have one. I'm not either, even though I've got more reason than a lot of folks to want to be sure - since I'm paying a six-figure sum to AMD for my Zodiac, above and beyond the common factor of it being my butt in the cockpit. I'll readily admit that I won't have the years of effort invested that most of the folks on here do, however. (I'm jealous of those who are building: they'll know their aircraft in a way I never will.) > A few months ago several Zenith builders said "let's wait for the > results." In the mean time, it APPEARS that we have lost another soul in > an accident that may have been preventable. True. OTOH, all we can do now is speculate, and that's not going to be any better at producing a fix if one is needed. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:26 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 Guys, there is an official report. Perhaps you missed them. Here it is: http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id 080421X00519&key=1 William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Gary, Right on Amigo! It is, as we say North of the border, the blind leading the blind. And guess where that leads. Jay in Dallas Do not archive Gary Gower wrote: > Hello No-name (unsigned messages), > > Please, Lets hold on a minute. First there is no Official Confirmation about a wing failure in this particular accident, in the first place. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New to the list From: "kkinney" OK, I'm a little behind on reading the lists. Is this *THE* Jay Maynard of Hercules fame? Dude! LOVE your work. And Rogers, naturally. I'm a z9 BC sysprog without access to an HMC or console. Don't ask Any changes I need to make that involve HMC/console access (which are most of them) are first tested on your product. Without your product, I wouldn't be able to do my job. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We now return you to your aircraft oriented email list. Regards, Kevin Kinney Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178660#178660 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:12 AM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: wings hi list i have been following the conversations regarding the potential weakness of the wing design. i personally believe it is due to over stressing the wing by the pilot. That said, i still feel in my heart i cannot take a passenger up without a definitive finding regarding wing strength and or design. the only possible solution is for extensive testing by a qualified firm. as i don't even know the qualifications i will let the group decide on whom can do it. the bottom line is really this, would you take up your son or daughter aloft in the XL right now? i would not. john butterfield XL, corvair torrance, ca Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:50 AM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New to the list Kevin Kinney? The musician? I saw you at Athfest a couple of times. Good fun and good music. Later, Jim (Athens GA) kkinney wrote: > > OK, I'm a little behind on reading the lists. > > Is this *THE* Jay Maynard of Hercules fame? > > Dude! LOVE your work. And Rogers, naturally. > I'm a z9 BC sysprog without access to an HMC or console. Don't ask > Any changes I need to make that involve HMC/console access (which are most of them) are first tested on your product. Without your product, I wouldn't be able to do my job. > > Thank you, thank you, thank you. > > We now return you to your aircraft oriented email list. > > Regards, > Kevin Kinney > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178660#178660 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PLAV8R" Sorry, I had a typo on the date......should have been November 4th, 2006. Here is the NTSB report. NTSB Identification: LAX07FA026 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Saturday, November 04, 2006 in Yuba City, CA Aircraft: Aircraft Mfg & Dev. Co. (AMD) CH601XL SLSA, registration: N158MD Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On November 4, 2006, about 1139 Pacific standard time, an Aircraft Manufacturing & Development Co., CH601XL SLSA, N158MD, experienced an in-flight breakup while cruising approximately 8 nautical miles south of Yuba City, California. The airplane was destroyed. The private pilot, who was a co-owner of the airplane, and a passenger were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The flight was performed under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91, and it originated from Lincoln, California, about 1129. A ground-based witness reported hearing the airplane as it approached his location. The witness stated that the airplane's engine was "missing" and its power was "on and off." Seconds later the witness heard the sound of an explosion and observed the center section of the airplane falling straight down. All of the airplane's structural components were located in adjacent open fields during the National Transportation Safety Board's on-scene investigation. The wreckage consisted of the following components, which were separated from each other: left wing (without aileron); right wing (with aileron); main landing gear assembly; cockpit, engine with attached propeller blades; aileron (left wing); and empennage. There was no evidence of oil spray on any of the components, and there was no evidence of fire. The wreckage has been recovered and detailed airframe and engine examinations are ongoing Regards, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178667#178667 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:12 AM PST US From: John Reinking Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL - Maneuvering SpeedZodiac XL - Maneuvering Speed Wed 4/23 9:12am PST Just tried zenair.com and zenithair.com. both came up immediately. John Reinking ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:37 AM PST US From: "Joe Scheibinger" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash "About 1700, a witness, located about 1/2-mile southeast of the accident site, observed the accident airplane as it approached him from the north. He noted that the airplane was noticeably lower than other airplanes that generally flew in the area, and that it was in a 3- to 5-degree left bank. The airplane then banked right, about the same magnitude, before it returned level for a moment. About 1 to 3 seconds later, the airplane banked to the left and to the right, significantly steeper than during the previous banks. After banking back to level, the airplane yawed right, and the "right wing folded up." The airplane banked right and the left wing "went up" just before the airplane entered a nose dive." Lets hold off for just a little while yet while we wait for the autopsy report. Could the pilot have suffered a medical condition like a heart attack or stroke that would have incapasitated him for a few moments? He may have been helpless at the controls. I think you could pull the wings off any plane if you were slumped over the controls. Does anyone know if the autopsy results are in? Joe in Oshkosh ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:09 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Don, it has been more than 15 months since your parent's tragic accident. Have you received any information on the progress of the investigation? Any indication of AMD's involvement in the investigation? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 From: "Gig Giacona" First let me fix the bad link http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080421X00519&key=1 and if that doesn't work here's a TinyURL http://tinyurl.com/6k5g9o That is a preliminary report and makes no ruling on the cause of the accident. The first line of the report states, "This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed." William Dominguez wrote: > Guys, there is an official report. Perhaps you missed them. Here it is: > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178680#178680 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:54 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New to the list On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 08:06:11AM -0700, kkinney wrote: > Is this *THE* Jay Maynard of Hercules fame? Yup! (And this is different from the usual "Is this *THE* Jay Maynard, the Tron Guy?".) > Dude! LOVE your work. And Rogers, naturally. > I'm a z9 BC sysprog without access to an HMC or console. Don't ask > Any changes I need to make that involve HMC/console access (which are most > of them) are first tested on your product. Without your product, I > wouldn't be able to do my job. It's not just my work. There's a dedicated development team who have put a lot of work into the system, and it shows. I'm pleased to be associated with them. For those of you who think C-130 when you hear "Hercules", the one Kevin's referring to is an open source emulator for IBM mainframes that runs on Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X. You can find out more at http://www.hercules-390.org . -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts From: "DaveG601XL" When I flew my AMD601XL check ride a few weeks ago, I noticed two things about the canopy: 1. I was not totally comfortable with latching the canopy and had to do it twice to reassure myself that it was secured. 2. When we opened the canopy upon returning, I almost was not able to grab it quickly enough to prevent it from blowing open due to the windy day. At Oshkosh last year, there was a customer built 601XL in the Zenith booth that had a modification which caught my eye. This XL had a bar going horizontally across from one side of the aft canopy support hoop to the other at just around shoulder level. The picture I took of it is attached to this post. I guess I can see both positive and negative attributes to this bar. It can give you something to grab to help in both opening and closing the canopy. On the other hand, I see where it could be a head knocker or a barrier to being able to reach into the baggage area. Fortunately, in this airplane, it is bolted in and thus easily removable if it turns out to be more of a pain than a help. I have also seen numerous 601s with a strap or rope attached at the top of the hoop (Macs, for example). This can be an aid in initially pulling it back to close as well as to control the opening on a windy day. Since I am working on my canopy now, I am interested in this and other intriguing additions to aid with canopy operation. Does anyone out there flying have any thoughts or suggestions on the usefulness of these types of modifications?? Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, working on final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178683#178683 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_6607_959.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:21 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: DNA Do Not Archive Hello Listers: Don't forget to add "do not archive" to posts as appropriate. A lot of what I've seen lately doesn't need to sweell the archives. As above, I lead off with it. Randy, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:38 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PLAV8R" Hi Craig, No, there has been no update. Last I heard was they (NTSB) may have a "Probable Cause" by July- Aug. Parts had been sent to Washington for metallurgical testing etc. However, That could be curtailed if any other Zodiac 601 aircraft had similar failures. I can speculate as well as anyone else. This was a fine day in normal cruise. Parents were in good health and my father had a lot of flying experience and would not panic. There was some history with the aircraft before it even left Eastman, Georgia. Pitot static system did not work, auto-pilot was assembled wrong, no fluid in the brakes, instruments exchanged with another aircraft, etc. My brother flew it from Eastman to Lakeville, Minnesota. Then flew to Sacrament, Ca. The plane had appr. 84 hours on it at the time of the accident. He had to get a new magneto, cylinder replacement (was blowing out seals in the starter, small leak). The propeller had been attached with the wrong bolts (to long) so even when torqued to spec's it was not tight. This was noticed during a preflight and a crack was noticed in the prop. I could go on. I am not putting down Chris Heinz, actually I admire him. My personal non-professional feeling is there was either metal fatigue or an assembly issue. Regards, Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178686#178686 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PatrickW" PLAV8R wrote: > From the Yuba City incident. > > http://www.cbs13.com/video/?id=13553@kovr.dayport.com > > http://www.cbs13.com/video/?id=13559@kovr.dayport.com > > Regards, > Don Fellow Builders, The video footage in the above links shows some details of the post-crash wing root area on one of the separated wings. *Please* forgive me if this precipitates unwarranted speculation, but there are some areas of interest visible if you pause the video and then zoom in. I would venture that we - actual builders - will note things here that the NTSB people did not. Does anyone know anything about photo enhancement? Is it possible to get better resolution from this video? Also, is there anyone out there who has access to more post-crash photos or video footage or other accidents, or perhaps has actually examined Zodiac wreckage and who can make comparisons with details visible in this footage versus what they have seen elsewhere? Don - thank you for sharing these with us. Patrick XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178690#178690 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:54 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts Did you ask the owner why the bar was there? Looks to me like it could be used to retain the baggage from flying forward. I would find it hard to use to close the canopy as it looks like it is behind the seats. DO NOT ARCHIVE Jerry of GA In a message dated 4/23/2008 1:10:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, david.m.gallagher@ge.com writes: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_6607_959.jpg **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:26 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts Hi Dave, I've had 3 occasions that my canopy wasn't latched after takeoff and that gave me cause for finding a method to determine if the latches are in fact secure. The suggestion taken from this list was putting a slot that visually crosses the rear latch bar. Then white paint was applied to the side of the bar and a white line was applied that aligned with the bar in the fully latched condition. Sometimes the latch is not totally secure, but it's easily seen and corrected by tapping or re-latching. I've had no problems since the fix. The link shows it all without paint, sorry, but it's easy to contrast a black background and white lines from the pilot's seat. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/latchlockslot.gif On safety strapping the canopy at the top rib; I've found myself kiting across the airport apron like the Mayflower more than once. Just after climbing out on the wing, the strap is easier to get hold of and it will prevent serious damage to canopy sheet metal and cowl in gusty conditions. You only need a thin 3/4 inch wide nylon strap with the nylon buckles to get the job done. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopenside.jpg This is seriously cheap insurance for your canopy and it's easily done. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com DaveG601XL wrote: > > When I flew my AMD601XL check ride a few weeks ago, I noticed two things about the canopy: 1. I was not totally comfortable with latching the canopy and had to do it twice to reassure myself that it was secured. 2. When we opened the canopy upon returning, I almost was not able to grab it quickly enough to prevent it from blowing open due to the windy day. > > At Oshkosh last year, there was a customer built 601XL in the Zenith booth that had a modification which caught my eye. This XL had a bar going horizontally across from one side of the aft canopy support hoop to the other at just around shoulder level. The picture I took of it is attached to this post. I guess I can see both positive and negative attributes to this bar. It can give you something to grab to help in both opening and closing the canopy. On the other hand, I see where it could be a head knocker or a barrier to being able to reach into the baggage area. Fortunately, in this airplane, it is bolted in and thus easily removable if it turns out to be more of a pain than a help. > > I have also seen numerous 601s with a strap or rope attached at the top of the hoop (Macs, for example). This can be an aid in initially pulling it back to close as well as to control the opening on a windy day. > > Since I am working on my canopy now, I am interested in this and other intriguing additions to aid with canopy operation. Does anyone out there flying have any thoughts or suggestions on the usefulness of these types of modifications?? > > Thanks, > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL, working on final assembly. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178683#178683 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_6607_959.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:39 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Donald, the other day you posted a link to a TV stations report of the a ccident. Could you please repost it. I did watch it a coule of times and both wings were far away from the fuselage. I want to review it again.. .. I am truly sorry for your loss.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "PLAV8R" wrote: om> Hi Craig, No, there has been no update. Last I heard was they (NTSB) may have a "Probable Cause" by July- Aug. Parts had been sent to Washington for me tallurgical testing etc. However, That could be curtailed if any other Zodiac 601 aircraft had similar failures. I can speculate as well as anyone else. This was a fine day in normal cruise. Parents were in good health and my father had a lot of flying e xperience and would not panic. There was some history with the aircraft before it even left Eastman, G eorgia. Pitot static system did not work, auto-pilot was assembled wron g, no fluid in the brakes, instruments exchanged with another aircraft, etc. My brother flew it from Eastman to Lakeville, Minnesota. Then flew to Sacrament, Ca. The plane had appr. 84 hours on it at the time of the ac cident. He had to get a new magneto, cylinder replacement (was blowing out seals in the starter, small leak). The propeller had been attached with the wrong bolts (to long) so even when torqued to spec's it was not tight. This was noticed during a preflight and a crack was noticed in the prop. I could go on. I am not putting down Chris Heinz, actually I admire h im. My personal non-professional feeling is there was either metal fati gue or an assembly issue. Regards, Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178686#178686 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click for free info on getting an MBA, $200K/ year potential. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s3KoPSc46U2dxe3f7P LaEgoQcvIAxU8HJK7qH9EESJK0SGu/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts From: "DaveG601XL" The owner was not there with the plane so I could not ask. I asked Nick Heintz what he thought and all I got for a reply was something like 'unnecessary.' Mac, I too have made the slot by the lever, but have not yet had the opportunity to view it from the seat. I would think that the pilot would have a hard time seeing his side, since it is behind him, but I will take your word for it. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, working on final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178708#178708 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bar Across Canopy Hoop and Other Thoughts From: "Gig Giacona" So am I and let me start with this little hissy fit, "I HATE THE CANOPY." I love the visibility it provides but it is the single worse designed thing to build in the whole kit. I damn near lost an arm in WW's tail dragger at CC #10 when Gus was about to take me up and just as I was getting seated the canopy started coming down. I like the idea shown in the pic you posted Dave. One problem it might solve for me is the canopy latches not lining up properly when I close it. Plus it gives you a good place to attach strap from the airframe to the canopy to both stop it from opening too far in wind and to pull it down. The fact that it also acts as an additional stop for stuff in the baggage area from flying into the back of your head is a bonus. DaveG601XL wrote: > > Since I am working on my canopy now, I am interested in this and other intriguing additions to aid with canopy operation. Does anyone out there flying have any thoughts or suggestions on the usefulness of these types of modifications?? > > Thanks, -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178709#178709 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PLAV8R" I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to the forum. If you want me to send them to you email me at: donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com Maybe someone else will have better luck. The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard. the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section. I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom. They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine. I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. Regards, Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:08 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. > > >**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car >listings at AOL Autos. >(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:42 PM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Castellated Nuts. Hi, Bob, Your AI is right. The rule is, if the bolt/nut is in tension (i.e., torqued tight, no rotation) then locknuts are okay, but when ANY rotation is present, as with clevis bolts, a castellated nut and cotter pin are required. Makes sense. Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:43 PM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet Gun Recommendation? The Zenith riveter nosepieces have been ground out concave, so as to form the "button-head" on flathead rivets. Sizes are, as you said, standard.Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:45 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash I've received the pics from Don and will pass them on to Matt for upload to the photo sharing area of the forum. Generally it takes Matt a few days to do this. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to the forum. If you want me to send them to you email me at: donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com Maybe someone else will have better luck. The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard. the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section. I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom. They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine. I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. Regards, Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:32 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash DO NOT ARCHIVE If you send the zip to me, I will put it on my ftp server with a link so that others can download it. Jim PLAV8R wrote: > > I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to the forum. > If you want me to send them to you email me at: > donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com > Maybe someone else will have better luck. > > The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard. > the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section. > I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom. > They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine. > I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. > > Regards, > Don > > -------- > Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. > Prior Lake, Minnesota > Cessna 175 N7656M > Cessna 140 N90123 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:00 PM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to the Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon. After reviewing them they seem to point to a different failure mode that the pictures I have seen from the Polk City accident. In the Polk city accident the wings were still attached to the fuselage but were bent along the spar. In this accident the wings aren't bent but rather are separated from the fuselage and one picture shows the wing and the mangled middle portion of the spar together. The other wing spar is broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the top spar cap and the bottom cap is missing from the wing. The fuselage looks broken apart and separated just in front of the main gear channel. It looks like the whole thing just came apart at that point and around the spar carrythrough. Pretty scary looking. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB has to say. John Davis 601XL - Jab 3300 PLAV8R wrote: > > I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file to the forum. > If you want me to send them to you email me at: > donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com > Maybe someone else will have better luck. > > The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard. > the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail section. > I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. I believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom. > They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine. > I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. > > Regards, > Don > > -------- > Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. > Prior Lake, Minnesota > Cessna 175 N7656M > Cessna 140 N90123 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711 > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:04 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link You can download the zip from here: www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip Jim ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:18 PM PST US From: Kevin Bonds Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash John The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom cap? I am puzzled by this statement. Kevin Bonds John Davis wrote: > > Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to > the Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon. > > The other wing spar is broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the > top spar cap and the bottom cap is missing from the wing. > > > John Davis > 601XL - Jab 3300 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "ashontz" So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote: > You can download the zip from here: > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip > > Jim -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178747#178747 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:29 PM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Hi Kevin, If you look at the left wing in pictures 30 & 33 you'll see the bottom spar cap is missing. I'm assuming it was ripped off in the accident but you never know. The top spar cap is fractured at the innermost bolt hole. It was certainly a catastrophic event to cause both wings to separate, the fuselage to break away from the firewall forward, etc. John Kevin Bonds wrote: > > John > > The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom > cap? I am puzzled by this statement. > > Kevin Bonds > > John Davis wrote: >> >> Don was kind enough to send me his pictures and I've emailed them to >> the Zenith Photoshare so they should be available soon. >> >> The other wing spar is broken off at the innermost bolt hole on the >> top spar cap and the bottom cap is missing from the wing. >> >> >> John Davis >> 601XL - Jab 3300 > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "MHerder" Do Not Archive I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement. ashontz wrote: > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. > > > jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote: > > You can download the zip from here: > > > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip > > > > Jim > -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178748#178748 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:19 PM PST US From: John Warren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash It should say bottom cap was torn from the wing and still attached to the center section carry through. Kevin Bonds wrote: > The bottom cap was missing from the wing? Did AMD not install a bottom > cap? I am puzzled by this statement. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "ashontz" The facts will come. How long have you been saying this now? Just curious. Gig Giacona wrote: > Because of the proximity to SnF there's little doubt that better information will come from this accident than the previous ones. And if not better at least more. > > As many have said let's not guess or listen to untrained eye-witnesses. The facts will come. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178750#178750 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:58 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:54 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > > I've received the pics from Don and will pass them on to Matt for upload > to > the photo sharing area of the forum. Generally it takes Matt a few days to > do this. > > -- Craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:46 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > > > > I do have post accident photos. I have tried in vain to attach a ZIP file > to the forum. > If you want me to send them to you email me at: > donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com > Maybe someone else will have better luck. > > The components were spread out over a large area on a 15 acre orchard. > the wings were probably one hundred yards from one another. As they say in > the report, right wing, left wing, firewall forward, cockpit, and tail > section. > I did not see any sign of fire, oil spray or trauma in the cockpit area. > I > believe the bottom opened up and my parents exited through the bottom. > They were found about 50ft or so on either side of the engine. > I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the > attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. > > Regards, > Don > > -------- > Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. > Prior Lake, Minnesota > Cessna 175 N7656M > Cessna 140 N90123 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178711#178711 > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:57 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > The top spar cap is fractured at the innermost bolt hole Well, relative to the fuselage it is actually the outermost bolt. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:46 PM PST US From: SABorns@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. 43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject to rotation. Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. > > >**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car >listings at AOL Autos. >(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:29 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM For the photo share I just send files to pictures@matronics.com (as described at http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/). Matt's direct address is dralle@matronics.com -- Craig ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:27 PM PST US From: Kevin Bonds Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link As do I. Also I forgot to say how sorry I am for your loss PLAV8R. And thank you for sharing the photos.These photos may help us understand what happened. Kevin Bonds MHerder wrote: > > Do Not Archive > > I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement. > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:03 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag the pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates the pin can fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the same set up for the rudder cables and after a few pins came out they advised NOT to us castle nuts in that situation. 43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject to rotation. Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:57 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash One question I have is where are the ailerons? I can see the hinges and all the holes in them on both wings but there seems to be no damage to the hinge at all. It was like it just came off the hinge. You would think that if it were ripped off there would be some of the metal left on the hinge. clearly the loss of a aileron would have made the plane uncontrollable. Could they have used A4's instead of A5's??? **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "Gig Giacona" To be exact I posted that on Tue Apr 08, 2008 @ 6:13 pm. What's your point? I stand by the statement. A quick look at the NTSB database shows that the most recent US fatal accident to have any report other than preliminary happened on 12/15/2007 and that is a "factual" report on the 701 that went down when the pilot was buzzing his house. The most recent fatal US accident that has a "Probable Cause" synopsis happened on 10/26/07 and it was a glider that stalled and spun in. The point is to show that it takes a while for the NTSB to to report stuff if there is an investigation. The one exception to this is a accident that happened when a line guy walked into a prop on a parked Pilatus PC-12. That accident happened on 1/3/08 and the probable cause was done by 3/31/08. Oh, BTW...I have noticed that you wussed out on helping with what was your idea to get an independent engineer to look at the design. Are you going to make up some reason and blame me for that as well? ashontz wrote: > The facts will come. > > How long have you been saying this now? Just curious. > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > Because of the proximity to SnF there's little doubt that better information will come from this accident than the previous ones. And if not better at least more. > > > > As many have said let's not guess or listen to untrained eye-witnesses. The facts will come. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178763#178763 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "Gig Giacona" No, I think it is a pretty good example of where Andy is coming from. DO NOT ARCHIVE MHerder wrote: > Do Not Archive > > I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement. > > > ashontz wrote: > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. > > > > > > jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote: > > > You can download the zip from here: > > > > > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip > > > > > > Jim > > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178766#178766 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:24 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Notice photo 019. If the rear spar attachment failed first it could cause this kind of cataclysmic failure of the wing and forward spar. The main spar is not designed for that type of loading (ie twisting). This is the problem with sand bag tests. The static test only stresses the spar with the type of loading it was designed to handle. My point is, one can not assume the problem is with the strength of the main spar. Beefing up the main spar would not help in this situation at all.. I can only hope that the NTSB can resolve this. This is one case where the sequence of events is extremely important. Jim James E. Lanier wrote: > > > You can download the zip from here: > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip > > Jim > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: "Gig Giacona" It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle nut without the pin. So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely to fall off. How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:15 PM PST US ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:04 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something unorthodox like a split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle nut without the pin. So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely to fall off. How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767 ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:00 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. There are AN safety clips that look like safety pins used to secure casle n uts when the nuts are to be periodically removed. I have them on my Kiyfox on the wing attach bolts which can be removed so that the wings swing back for transportation. George May 601XL 912s> From: craig@craigandjean.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Su bject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:15 ndjean.com>> > A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something un orthodox like a> split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg.> > -- Craig > > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.co m> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:02 PM> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> S ubject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> > --> Zenith-List message poste d by: "Gig Giacona" > > It seems to me that we c an be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to> come off sooner or lat er and is only slightly less likely to back off than a> castle nut without the pin.> > So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pi n is bad> there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that> is very likely to fall off.> > How about some type of cap for t he castle nut that protects the pin?> > --------> W.R. "Gig" Giac ona> 601XL Under Construction> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewt =================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid= 5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "ashontz" Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing, that was my point. Gig Giacona wrote: > No, I think it is a pretty good example of where Andy is coming from. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > MHerder wrote: > > Do Not Archive > > > > I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement. > > > > > > ashontz wrote: > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. > > > > > > > > > jim.lanier(at)charter.net wrote: > > > > You can download the zip from here: > > > > > > > > www.chemroc.com/CH601/Post_crash.zip > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178773#178773 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD From: "ashontz" Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178775#178775 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:38 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Guys you don't use a castle nut on your seat belt attach or the canopy bolt or a number of other places that you don't tighten the nut I would agree that there might be hundreds of ways to address this issue but to say the nut will fall off eventually is a bit of a stretch. I liked the idea of looping the pin but a safety type pin would seem a bit better. Or I guess you could simply spot weld the nut on. That last one was a joke. Do not archive **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rivet Gun Recommendation? From: "mwtucker" Thanks for all of your input. Mike -------- Awaiting delivery of RANS S-19 Empennage Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178779#178779 ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:36 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DNA Randy. Ya know , It MIGHT be better if it was the other way around, if you HAD to commit to "ARCHIVE" you would be saying that you thought the comments you just made were worthy of swelling the pile of stuff we already have. I also would REALLY like to be able to delete SOME of my OWN posts as I've forgotten to post "do not archive" MANY times. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy L. Thwing" Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Zenith-List: DNA > > > Do Not Archive > > Hello Listers: > > Don't forget to add "do not archive" to posts as appropriate. A lot of > what > I've seen lately doesn't need to sweell the archives. As above, I lead > off > with it. > > Randy, Las Vegas > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "Sabrina" Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think). The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178782#178782 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_028_140.jpg ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:36 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. That won't happen if you "navy" the cotter pins. You bend the legs all the way around until they meet the loop in the head of the cotter pin, then cut off the excess, and bend them down tight. (My old A&P showed me that one.) The most prehensile toes, shod or not, can't snag what isn't snaggable. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag the pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates the pin can fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the same set up for the rudder cables and after a few pins came out they advised NOT to us castle nuts in that situation. 43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject to rotation. Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:14 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote: > Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing, > that was my point. I'm not going to presume to speak for the others, but: > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the > > > > center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. I would hardly apply the term "Neat." to such a situation, especially when it was a part of the deaths of two people. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:53 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Sun N Fun Thank You Fellow Zenith Builders, Do not archive Please allow me to thank all those who helped with the Zenith 701 known as Angel-1 in the basic Sheet Metal Workshop at Sun n fun recently. I would like to list all of you by name, but I'm afraid I'd miss someone. It was a great learning experience for all of us. We didn't get it finished, but we knew that going in. Our objective was to expose aviation enthusiests of all ages to actually working on a kit aircraft. In that we succeded. We will update you from time to time as the airplane progresses forward. Thanks again for your help. Jim Hoak - 601HD ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:45 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Of course, you could also insert the bolt from inside, so the castellated nut is under the footbar, thereby unreachable by foot, Paul Rodriguez Original Message ----- From: Gig Giacona To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle nut without the pin. So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely to fall off. How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: "leinad" Of course on a rod end the nut clamps the ball of the connecting rod tight. The only motion is between the ball and the socket. The front of the steering rod (at least on my plans) uses a rod end. As a point of interest for those that will only use a nylock nut once, I made a homemade hole cutter.. This tools used a 3/16 bolt with a locknut as the pivot for the center of the hole. This was one of those 1/2 height nuts, not even full thread. I cut every lightening hole on the airframe with that tool using the same nut and bolt. The nut faced aggressive turning motion with every one of the holes that I cut, including all the rib lightening holes. The nut never backed off. It must have been on and off a hundred times. Anyway I'm comfortable using them twice, as (like Gus mentioned) they haven't been over torqued. Dan > > > "amyvega2005(at)earthlink."]not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. > > Juan > > -- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178805#178805 ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:42 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Gig. I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock nut, so they don't back off. I would think the manufacture of the nuts would do vibration tests that lasted thousands of hours with loose nuts to prove the design. You could always use a bushing, such as on the rudder, then the bolt is torqued against the bushing allowing you to use a lock nut. Mark S. 701/912ULS do not archive ----- Original Message ---- From: Gig Giacona Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:02:15 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle nut without the pin. So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely to fall off. How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178767#178767 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:58 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link This girl is sharp..... The thing that keeps coming up in my mind is the se pics and god only know how many others are out there and if not for D onald providing them we would still not be viewing them. As builders of experimental planes we know these machines intimately. We can see things even the best NTSB guys might overlook, because we have been there, don e that. Keeping pics, documents and other critical evidence hidden away from us seems counterproductive at best and deadly at worst.. Is it just me being paranoid??? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Sabrina" wrote: Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think). The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--c ould it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5 -16A? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178782#178782 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_028_140.jpg ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click here and get the professional resume help you need. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s1lmd805fVUGMYzZjI deCcgBeWhLirQ0kYE5ExZnvk7mW0a/ ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:07 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I have no experiance with this, but post crash evidence has to be difficult for even experts to determine a cause. We've all seen engines ripped out of race cars and cars torn in half but that doesn't mean the car was poorly designed or constructed. I know these are difficult times for we XL builders, but I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything from these disasters. I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight inspection fanatic!! Do not archive Terry Turnquist 601-XL Plans On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote: > Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing, > that was my point. I'm not going to presume to speak for the others, but: > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the > > > > center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat. I would hardly apply the term "Neat." to such a situation, especially when it was a part of the deaths of two people. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:44 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Seat belts aren't safety of flight items, control cable connections are. Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > Guys you don't use a castle nut on your seat belt attach or the canopy bolt > or a number of other places that you don't tighten the nut ... -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:17 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 05:11:25PM -0700, Terry Turnquist wrote: > I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight > inspection fanatic!! Okkay...so let's see if we can do some good between now and whenever we learn a probable cause: What should we inspect on preflight/postflight, above and beyond the usual? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "ashontz" Well, the bolt didn't break. I doubt that was the cause. More importantly, the center spar cap sheared away. Sabrina wrote: > Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think). The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178818#178818 ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "Sabrina" Those 4 bolts hold the wings to the aircraft. This is the only craft where the center spar was pulled out of the craft (that I know of.) If the other 8 bolts are torqued properly, a pre-flight of the wings would indicate a solid wing but the rubber wing root fairing would hide movement between the wing and the fuselage. It could easily lead to fatigue failure of the 6-B13-1 uprights or overstress 6-W7-2, the rear spar root doubler. See photo 19 (as pointed out earlier.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178822#178822 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zodiac_file_019_116.jpg ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:30 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Bryan Martin wrote: t> >Seat belts aren't safety of flight items, control cable connections are .. You have not flown in my "beast" yet. !!!! no seatbelts = you are end ing up in the back seat.. Jus kiddin and do not archive _____________________________________________________________ Start a career as a pharmacy assistant. Click here for more information .. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vg0IABouhaaQNFkfUt Gu4QupMIhvNJKKTy1t3kU8C6BewEy/ ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PatrickW" PLAV8R wrote: > I wonder what they connect the ballistic parachutes to. If it is at the attach fitting they may save the plane and not the occupants. > > Regards, > Don My fuselage shipped with the "new BRS brackets". Front ones double as engine mount brackets and canopy hinges. Rear ones are attached to the longeron in the baggage area (but did not ship with the kit). Here is a drawing of them: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/Zenith601XLBRSBrackets/photo#5190655085433945250 Patrick XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178823#178823 ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:18 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HD Hi Andy, The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to Rotax and 0-200. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ashontz wrote: > > Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b] > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "PatrickW" ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote: > I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 601XL. The NTSB guys are not. The one thing that we all can be 100% certain of is that the final NTSB report will be as useless as every other NTSB report has been on this matter. I rarely use the term "100%" for anything, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely certain. It's up to us - the 601XL experts. Patrick XL/Corvair N63PZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178827#178827 ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "ashontz" I know, I had a made, I guess a snide remark, about the entire damn center spar being ripped out of the fuselage, that Gig didn't seem to like very much and called me on. What I was getting at in that remark was, "Holy cow, the entire center spar got ripped out and ripped apart the fuselage", but apparently that was lost in translation on him. This all occurred while these poor people were in the pattern apparently. And per his son, he was an excellent, diligent, healthy pilot no less. And I'm going to guess the wife probably knew how to fly too if the sons are all pilots. Sounds like a pilot family to me. And even if she wasn't a pilot, she probably knew at least the basics. Point being, if the guy had some sort of medical problem out of nowhere, there was in all probability a co-pilot sitting right next to him. Which would lead you to believe, sumpin' aint right with that particular plane anyway. Especially condidering the son doesn't think an explosion occurred. Apparently this is the plane where the rear spar bolts weren't installed. Who knows, maybe, maybe not. Sabrina wrote: > Those 4 bolts hold the wings to the aircraft. This is the only craft where the center spar was pulled out of the craft (that I know of.) If the other 8 bolts are torqued properly, a pre-flight of the wings would indicate a solid wing but the rubber wing root fairing combined with the spring gear would mask movement between the wing and the fuselage. It could easily lead to fatigue failure of the 6-B13-1 uprights or overstress 6-W7-2, the rear spar root doubler. See photo 19 (as pointed out earlier.) -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178830#178830 ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:15 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash Thanks joe Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:32 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash > >> Craig, could you give me Matt's e mail address Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM > > For the photo share I just send files to pictures@matronics.com (as > described at http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/). Matt's direct address > is > dralle@matronics.com > > -- Craig > > > ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sun N Fun Thank You From: "Ron Lendon" Jim, Had a good time and took some pictures of the progress we made that week. Here is the link: http://picasaweb.google.com/ron.lendon/SnF2008 do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178834#178834 ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PLAV8R" Hi Joe, I am not trying to be negative. In the Yuba City situation I think that the firewall forward and the aft fuselage would have made the trip fine. However, the occupants would have exited the aircraft from the bottom. My parents seat-belts were still connected , I believe they exited from the bottom of the fuselage after the wings departed the aircraft. If it were not for the circumstances, maybe the BRS would have worked fine. Regards, Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178848#178848 ________________________________ Message 78 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash From: "PLAV8R" Hi Patrick, Made a mistake......You are not Joe.....You are Patrick...One of my brothers names. My apologies. Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178850#178850 ________________________________ Message 79 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "PLAV8R" Hi Andy, My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight. The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any phase of flight. Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some answers or good information. This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago. Thanks again, you guys are great. Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857 ________________________________ Message 80 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:18 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I wonder if any flight data was recovered from the GPS? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:12 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Hi Andy, My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight. The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any phase of flight. Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some answers or good information. This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago. Thanks again, you guys are great. Don -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.