Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
2. 02:43 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (rdobson)
3. 04:09 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz)
4. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
6. 06:24 AM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona)
7. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Jim McBurney)
8. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez)
9. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
10. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Frank Roskind)
11. 07:12 AM - I must say................... (steve)
12. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
13. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
14. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
15. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis)
16. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Ken Lilja)
17. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland)
18. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
19. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ella)
20. 08:01 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz)
21. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez)
22. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
23. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
24. 08:13 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6)
25. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (nyterminat@aol.com)
26. 08:35 AM - Lowrance 2000C GPS Question (Jeffrey A Beachy)
27. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jim Hoak)
28. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (John Warren)
29. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (nyterminat@aol.com)
30. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
31. 09:21 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (moorecomp)
32. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez)
33. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: 601HD (Frank Roskind)
34. 10:08 AM - Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis)
35. 10:32 AM - Re: Who made the parts (PatrickW)
36. 10:36 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz)
37. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Terry Phillips)
38. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gary Gower)
39. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis)
40. 11:46 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6)
41. 12:02 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona)
42. 12:03 PM - Re: SIX Figure Sum (japhillipsga@aol.com)
43. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland)
44. 12:06 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Gig Giacona)
45. 12:09 PM - Re: I must say................... (GBzodiflyer)
46. 12:09 PM - Re: Sun N Fun Thank You (Cory Emberson)
47. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (george may)
48. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Frank Roskind)
49. 12:16 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Jay Maynard)
50. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
51. 12:30 PM - What every homebuilder needs ( slightly off-topic ) (John Marzulli)
52. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (Frank Roskind)
53. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
54. 12:49 PM - Re: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question (george may)
55. 01:03 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6)
56. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis)
57. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis)
58. 01:35 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis)
59. 01:35 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Gig Giacona)
60. 01:38 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona)
61. 02:15 PM - Empty weight (steve)
62. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier)
63. 02:30 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Jaybannist@cs.com)
64. 02:39 PM - Re: Who made the parts (LHusky@aol.com)
65. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (David Downey)
66. 02:51 PM - Re: Who made the parts (John Davis)
67. 02:53 PM - Re: Empty weight (Craig Payne)
68. 02:57 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Craig Payne)
69. 03:10 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Craig Payne)
70. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (David Downey)
71. 03:21 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis)
72. 03:21 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis)
73. 03:28 PM - Re: Empty weight (Sabrina)
74. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Rick Lindstrom)
75. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
76. 03:32 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R)
77. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
78. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Rick Lindstrom)
79. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
80. 04:05 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R)
81. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections)
82. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (Craig Payne)
83. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (passpat@aol.com)
84. 04:23 PM - Fun flying in twin 601XLs (Craig Payne)
85. 04:53 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (leinad)
86. 04:59 PM - Re: Empty weight (Gary Ray)
87. 05:11 PM - Re: Who made the parts (PLAV8R -)
88. 05:16 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind)
89. 05:34 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R -)
90. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections)
91. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (Jay Maynard)
92. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
93. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (steve)
94. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland)
95. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard)
96. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (n801bh@netzero.com)
97. 06:36 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (LarryMcFarland)
98. 06:39 PM - XL Plans for sale (Matt Stecher)
99. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections)
100. 07:10 PM - Re: Haven't Forgotten New Lists... (seattle)
101. 07:34 PM - Aileron Hinge Pins Failure (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
102. 08:34 PM - [Probable Spam] Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Ron Lendon)
103. 08:34 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PatrickW)
104. 09:30 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (lwhitlow)
105. 09:47 PM - Re: Fun flying in twin 601XLs (Tim Juhl)
106. 11:39 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
It seems to me like we are trying hard to figure out a way to make this a
wing failure scenario. I have showed the photos to a couple of engineers and
they come to the same conclusion I did when I first saw the photos. That the
lack of damage to the aileron hinge as shown in the picture would lead you to
think the aileron exited the aircraft in cruise causing violent flutter and
separation of the wing. I would like to know where the aileron was found in
proximity to the wing. If the theory is correct it would be some distance behind
the wing. from the eye witness statements that also sounds like what
happened, the loud bang was the spar snapping at the attach point. If you look
at the
photo's on the cabin floor you can clearly see stress from the rivets being
torn from there respective holes and you don't see this on the hinge so again
I ask could someone that assembled the plane put in the wrong rivets? If you
install a a 4 in a a 5 hole it will fill the hole and hold for a while but
it will eventually give way. The KR guys said there was a video of a plane
doing a high speed pass and the aileron separated from the wing and the aircraft
tore itself apart and disintegrated in a matter of seconds.
I am building a 601xl right now and am just a worried about the wing
separations as the rest of you but we have to remember that it only takes a few
minutes for things to go from bad to worse in the air. I think if we build them
correctly and fly them as intended you will never have a problem but cut a few
corners or install a part that is (Good enough) or even working when tired or
fatigued or mad might just be the difference that has us doing this
discussion.
Jeff
601xl Corvair
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets attaching
it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at a time, causing
wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment causing main spar
to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron hinge looks too clean to
have been firmly attached at impact.
Russell Dobson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178877#178877
Message 3
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Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD.
Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like
the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered
the longer track record of the HD.
Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in
that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons.
Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make
all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now
within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully
installed split flaps on an HD?
I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion
next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's
a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable
flying whatever I build.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Hi Andy,
> The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have
> to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep
> it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to
> Rotax and 0-200.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> ashontz wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b]
> >
> > --------
> > Andy Shontz
> > CH601XL - Corvair
> > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178880#178880
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
> After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),
how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
> After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way.
Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like?
If this is the problem, how would it be fixed?
The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac
variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge.
These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since
inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL.
The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one
limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron
trim? (N55ZC will...)
The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding
up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to
both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim
tab).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure
they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally
follow the advice of the ACs and the designer.
msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote:
> Gig.
>
> I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely
to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock
nut, so they don't back off.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178897#178897
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pins being worked loose (by
feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wire instead of cotter pins in
the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut, twist it, run through the
clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the clevis. Try it, you may like
it.
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2 cases of
flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story. Also, in the accident
in Oakdale CA where an XL folded its wing and crashed, a witness stated
that the wing "visibly vibrate" (Incident # LAX06LA105). So the flutter hypothesis
is a very valid one.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
> After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way.
Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like?
If this is the problem, how would it be fixed?
The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac
variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge.
These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since
inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL.
The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one
limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron
trim? (N55ZC will...)
The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding
up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to
both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim
tab).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I would guess that if one of you who actually has or is building a 601 XL w
ere to write the NTSB and voice your concerns regarding the integrity of th
e wing structure, that the letter would result in more than a perfunctory r
eport. I know several NTSB investigators personally, and I know that each
of them has an incredible commitment to safety and to his or her job.> Subj
ect: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link> From: pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>> > > ter_turn
(at)yahoo.com wrote:> > I think we must rely on the experts if we are to le
arn anything > > > Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 6
01XL. The NTSB guys are not. > > The one thing that we all can be 100% cert
ain of is that the final NTSB report will be as useless as every other NTSB
report has been on this matter.> > I rarely use the term "100%" for anythi
ng, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely certain. It's up to us - th
e 601XL experts.> > Patrick> XL/Corvair> N63PZ> > > > > Read this topic onl
ine here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178827#178827> >
====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in
the game.
http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april
08
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reas
on you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annuall
y, the aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant ra
ted mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated n
ut secured by safety wire.> From: jmcburney@pobox.com> To: zenith-list@matr
onics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Thu, 24 A
<jmcburney@pobox.com>> > If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pi
ns being worked loose (by> feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wir
e instead of cotter pins in> the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut,
twist it, run through the> clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the c
levis. Try it, you may like> it.> > Blue skies and tailwinds> > Jim> CH-801
===================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_realtime_042008
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| Subject: | I must say................... |
With all of the speculation that goes on with you people, at first I
thought "what a bunch of "Dopes". All B.S. and nothing
substantial.........
Well I ve changed my mind..................................
Thank you all for making me think SAFETY just a little(a lot) more. I
read lots of ideas of why aircraft crash here on this website. I sure
don't hear much from the Feds or NTSB....
Sure these agencies will publish their "facts" in the far future but I
get much more from you in this group. Right or wrong, your ideas have
me concerned...
>From the first wing install on my 601 XL, I thought " if the rear (
drag) spar ever came loose, the wing would flap into destruction." The
rear spar attach isn't very beefy. But then I ve never seen a drag spar
that was...
Not saying this was THE problem in 601 crashes but its something that
needs and will be investigated....
When you guys and gals get the chance look how the wing acts with the
rear spar bolt removed...
Now I m reading your ideas on the possibility of a wing flap failure.
Man . that's not a far out idea.....
Anyway. Thanks to all of you for opening my eyes to safety even more.
Steve W.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2
> cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story.
Oh? Tell us more. I don't recall these.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher tr
ue airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density al
titudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/h
p_limts.pdf
It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to
look.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com>
onmicro.com>> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:> >
After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets>
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one a
t> > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment>
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron>
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.> > Okkay, s
o if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),> how w
ould someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?> -- > Jay Ma
ynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http:/
/www.tronguy.net> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi
========================> _
===============> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=
5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:
> Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher
> true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density
> altitudes. For a discussion you might read
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
> It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to
> look.
Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all
the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all
the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL
or what is different.
1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach
built?
2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?
etc.
There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing
the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the
craft.
It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor,
who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all
601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.
Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.
Bobefx
601XL QB 3300A
N642Z reserved
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:09:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
> After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way.
Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like?
If this is the problem, how would it be fixed?
The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac
variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge.
These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since
inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL.
The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one
limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron
trim? (N55ZC will...)
The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding
up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to
both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim
tab).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
According to McCauley propellers, neither the attach bolts or dowel pins
on a Cessna T210 drive the propeller. The prop is driven by friction
between the hub and flange developed by the nut torque clamping
pressure. A bolt that is not coming up to torque is only acting as a
pin and not a clamp. Also relative motion between parts would be a
problem. It would be interesting to see if there was any fretting
corrosion between the spar and carrythru.
Ken Lilja
Sabrina wrote:
>
> Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think).
The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be
that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the
AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A?
>
>
>
Message 17
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Andy,
The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
in climb with an HD.
Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
spar section etc, but still
believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
common denominator will most
likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
that were less than called for.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
>
> Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD.
Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed
like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered
the longer track record of the HD.
>
> Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress
in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons.
Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make
all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now
within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
>
> One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully
installed split flaps on an HD?
>
> I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion
next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's
a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable
flying whatever I build.
>
>>> --------
>>> Andy Shontz
>>> CH601XL - Corvair
>>> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher
true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density
altitudes. For a discussion you might read
_http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf_ (http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf)
It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to
look.
If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have
flutter.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Hi Don
Sorry for your loss
I am building a 601XL Also had a Cessna 175 N7644M
And my name is Don also
Thanks Don
From: "PLAV8R" <donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:12 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
> <donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight.
> The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any
> phase of flight.
> Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some
> answers or good information.
> This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago.
>
> Thanks again, you guys are great.
> Don
>
> --------
> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
> Prior Lake, Minnesota
> Cessna 175 N7656M
> Cessna 140 N90123
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857
>
>
>
Message 20
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Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For
now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it
all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need
an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual,
just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter
magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment
working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the
plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't
spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth
of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start
over" factor.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Andy,
> The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
> wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
> in climb with an HD.
> Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
> VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
> spar section etc, but still
> believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
> requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
> common denominator will most
> likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
> that were less than called for.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> ashontz wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an
HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed
like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered
the longer track record of the HD.
> >
> > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress
in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and
ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could
make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at
now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
> >
> > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully
installed split flaps on an HD?
> >
> > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair
conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL.
It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable
flying whatever I build.
> >
> > >> --------
> > >> Andy Shontz
> > >> CH601XL - Corvair
> > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --------
> > Andy Shontz
> > CH601XL - Corvair
> > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when
he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly.
The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher
reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke
to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana"
and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages
when I get some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2
> cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story.
Oh? Tell us more. I don't recall these.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I didn't exclude flutter, but flutter usually does not sneak up on pilots i
n straight and level flight at low altitude. Of course, were there some ch
ange in the control surfaces, such as a loosening of a counterweight, or a
hinge, then the flutter characteristics would change abruptly, but in those
cases flutter would be a symptom, not a cause. If we had access to all of
the pieces of the plane shortly after crash, then we would see shiny crack
ed surfaceswhere the events in the last few moments of flight led to failur
es and dull cracked surfaces next to shiny surfaces where a crack propagate
d during failure. If a crack propagated, then it would be a great place to
start looking. Anything which could cause a major vibration would be a go
od place to start, including wing attach points, aileron and flap attach po
ints, elevator hinges and attach points, engine mount, and propeller. Anot
her place to check would be the control system. If the cables were to go s
lack all of a sudden, bad things would happen, too. This is merely an atte
mpt at logic. My bet is the NTSB already has such a checklist, and much be
tter than my shooting from the hip here.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:27:13 -
0500> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject:
Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link> > --> Zenith-List message
posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at
10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:> > Flutter is an interesting hypothe
sis, but flutter often occurs at higher> > true airspeeds, which come from
normal indicated airspeeds at high density> > altitudes. For a discussion y
ou might read> > http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf> > It doesn't
rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to> > look.>
> Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see?> -- > Jay Maynard,
K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.t
ronguy.net> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC
========================> _
=============> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause.
MSN_Make_IM_Yours
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I agree, but flutter is the symptom, not the cause.
From: Aerolitellc@aol.comDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:54:34 -0400Subject: Re:
Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos LinkTo: zenith-list@matronics.com
In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, frankrosk
ind@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher tr
ue airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density al
titudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/h
p_limts.pdfIt doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the firs
t place to look.
If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have fl
utter.
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A
OL Autos.
_________________________________________________________________
Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause.
MSN_Make_IM_Yours
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
The common thing is that they are XL's. Check the NTSB reports. Two were kits,
one was AMD production and one was CZAW production. Two wing folds and two in-flight
break-ups. 4 fatal accidents with structural failure. Out of about 240
flying XL's......Is that a lot or a little????
Scott
> This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do
all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all
the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every
XL or what is different.
> 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not
scratach built?
> 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?
> etc.
> There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing
the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of
the craft.
> It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor,
who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all
601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.
> Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.
>
>
> Bobefx
> 601XL QB 3300A
> N642Z reserved
> do not archive
>
--------
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178930#178930
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Just use a bushing as suggested before and torque your nylon lock nut!!!!!!
Bob Spudis
They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure
they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally
follow the advice of the ACs and the designer.
msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote:
> Gig.
>
> I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less
likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a
lock nut, so they don't back off.
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 9:22 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure
they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally
follow the advice of the ACs and the designer.
msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote:
> Gig.
>
> I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less
likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a
lock nut, so they don't back off.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178897#178897
Message 26
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| Subject: | Lowrance 2000C GPS Question |
For those of you who have mastered the Lowrance 2000C GPS, I have a
question. Is it possible to combine a Mapcreate map with the Av map
pre-loaded onto the 2000C card? I can make detailed maps with the
Mapcreate program, but I cannot get the GPS to show the Av map in
conjunction with the higher detail afforded by a Mapcreate map. Has
anyone succeeded in so doing?
Jeff Beachy
CH701, 61 hours
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Listers,
You remember correctly. The 601XL over the cooling towers with possible
flutter in Ga was Bill of GA. He reported extensively about it. At the
time we thought is was mostly because of turbulence.
Hey Bill, refresh our memories.
Jim Hoak 601HD
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dominguez
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the
archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant
if I remember correctly. The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in
Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also
in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident.
Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the
discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get
some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> Now that you guys mention flutter, lets
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
<http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001214X40183&key=1> For
example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
envelope.
-Gus
Frank Roskind wrote:
> Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at
> higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at
> high density altitudes.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in?
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when
he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly.
The other happened to the? AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher
reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke
to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana"
and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages
when I get some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
-----Original Message-----
From: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:59 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when
he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly.
The other happened to the? AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher
reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke
to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana"
and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages
when I get some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> Now that you guys mention flutter, lets
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I don't think it stripped the heads off because you would still have some of
the rivets in there respective holes and as you can see they are all missing.
The only thing that would make sense to me judging from the two photo's are
1: The aileron connects on top of the hinge so if the rivet heads sheared
you would still have some of the rivets in their respective holes and there are
none.
2: None of the holes seem to be elongated or distorted from a rivet pulling
thru as was the case with the cabin floor photos they seem to be all uniform
and of proper edge distance.
3: If you look at photo 34 you can see half of the outboard hinge is rolled
and pulled away from the wing but the pin is still present and a dent in the
outboard flap.
I would still like to know where the aileron ended up and what size rivets
were in the hinge.
Jeff
After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
All,
Please go back in time and read my post from Mar. 10th of 2006 regarding Bill Phillips
request for "More stupid conjecture" of the Modesto crash.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=4519
Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?
I am still inclined to say a failure in the aileron control circuit, leading to
flutter. In the current post-crash photos, look at the end rib of the left wing
and see how the aileron control cables tore straight down through the wing?
Also the upper spar caps are bent straight downward (not twisted) until failure.
These 2 things indicate the wing was forced straight downward (there's that
negative G thing again!) extremely hard. Probably not an aileron cable failure,
because if one of the cables had failed, then it would be slack and not torn
both locations equally. However, the large unbalanced aileron becoming disconnected
would slam up and down violently enough to destroy the wing in a very
short period of time, eventually ripping itself away. Especially at cruise speed,
remember all the recent posts about "Maneuvering Speed" and "Full deflection
of controls"? These uncontrolled deflections would be way more than normal
full deflections.
Someone looking for a common thread in these accidents should look at the fact
that they all had electric trim systems installed - In the left aileron! Additional
weight aft of the hinge line only makes an already unbalanced aileron
condition even worse!
Ok, so what would cause the aileron to become disconnected? Looking for a weak
link in the system, I would first look at the small aileron control horn attached
to the I/B .025" end rib of the aileron with 4 rivets. On the HD and HDS,
the plans show that this part was a different configuration, much larger and fastened
with more rivets. Heck, even the low and slow 701 has this plate made
from .090" instead of .063" and it is fastened with 9 rivets in the .025" end
rib and 4 more in a support L. Also, on the 601, due to the way the bell-crank
moves the fwd. end of the push-rod in an arc, there is also some tension on these
rivets, not just shear.
All for now. Be safe.
Craig Moore - A&P
701 builder wannabe - still
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178954#178954
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
You're correct. Here is a link to his message back in Jan 2007.
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=56316168?KEYS=flutter?LISTNAME=Zenith?HITNUMBER=148?SERIAL254221897?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
nyterminat@aol.com wrote: That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in?
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when
he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly.
The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher
reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke
to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana"
and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages
when I get some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
-----Original Message-----
From: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:59 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when
he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly.
The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott
Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke
to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana"
and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages
when I get some time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> Now that you guys mention flutter, lets
---------------------------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
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Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal
accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and
looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 f
atal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was
in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of t
he structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening
causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the
earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the ma
in landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitte
d much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent
of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed
to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalen
t of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analy
sis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal
was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin.
As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spi
ns in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently
there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two e
ngine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a s
tall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Fina
lly there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/
spin, with no apparent gain in safety.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD> Fr
om: ashontz@nbme.org> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700> To: zenith-lis
me.org>> > Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing ha
s me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and s
ee what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to thou
gh. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for no
w. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself.
Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of
fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a
hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than an
ything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'
m at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, b
ut it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor.> > > larry(at)
macsmachine.com wrote:> > Andy,> > The HD has enormous lift and flaps would
be without purpose on this long > > wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23
feet, I cannot begin to keep up > > in climb with an HD.> > Same engine and
all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with > > VGs under the st
ab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large > > spar section e
tc, but still> > believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings an
d materials > > requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than lat
er and the > > common denominator will most> > likely be either constructio
n that varies from the design or materials > > that were less than called f
or.> > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> > do not archive>
> > > ashontz wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around
the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested
in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier
plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track re
cord of the HD.> > > > > > Considering that when I do have time to work on
my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a h
alf months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tape
red or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly an
d maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I d
o some serious heads-down work.> > > > > > One thing I think I'd miss on th
e HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on
an HD?> > > > > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll prob
ably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is f
orthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airpl
ane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.> > > > > > >> --
------> > > >> Andy Shontz> > > >> CH601XL - Corvair> > > >> www.mykitlog.c
om/ashontz> > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >
> --------> > > Andy Shontz> > > CH601XL - Corvair> > > www.mykitlog.com/as
hontz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------> An
dy Shontz> CH601XL - Corvair> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz> > > > > Read this t
opic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#1
=======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=
5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
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| Subject: | Who made the parts |
That is what I am talking about. All were Kits. What was there origin? Who built
the Kit? AMD does not build from scratch or do they. Did CZAW build the basic
kit that was used to build the planes or where did they come from. No scratch
builds have had the same problem, right? Who builds the kits for Zenith? They
will not tell me who built my QB kit. It had a lot of Quality Control Problems
and Poor workmanship.
They may all be XL but not all XL are losing wings. Find the common thread, it
could be who manufactured the kit. The basic kit, the parts.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: swater6 <waters.scott@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:10:40 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The common thing is that they are XL's. Check the NTSB reports. Two were kits,
one was AMD production and one was CZAW production. Two wing folds and two in-flight
break-ups. 4 fatal accidents with structural failure. Out of about 240
flying XL's......Is that a lot or a little????
Scott
> This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do
all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all
the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every
XL or what is different.
> 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not
scratach built?
> 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?
> etc.
> There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing
the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of
the craft.
> It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor,
who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all
601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.
> Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.
>
>
> Bobefx
> 601XL QB 3300A
> N642Z reserved
> do not archive
>
--------
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178930#178930
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
The rivets...?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178973#178973
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I was thinking HD, not HDS. But I'd probably build both sets of wings. Even so,
I'd prefer to have both wings still on the plane if I were in a stall spin.
[quote="frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C"]Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ (http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/) and looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin.
As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spins
in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently there
was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two engine out
fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a stall/spin, and
an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a
midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/spin,
with no apparent gain in safety.
> Subject: Re: 601HD
> From: ashontz@nbme.org
> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For
now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of
it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll
need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's
manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter
magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment
working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on
the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't
spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth
of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to
start over" factor.
>
>
> larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> > Andy,
> > The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
> > wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
> > in climb with an HD.
> > Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
> > VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
> > spar section etc, but still
> > believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
> > requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
> > common denominator will most
> > likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
> > that were less than called for.
> >
> > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> > do not archive
> >
> > ashontz wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building
an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed
like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered
the longer track record of the HD.
> > >
> > > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress
in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps
and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could
make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm
at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
> > >
> > > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully
installed split flaps on an HD?
> > >
> > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair
conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the
XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be
comfortable flying whatever I build.
> > >
> > > >> --------
> > > >> Andy Shontz
> > > >> CH601XL - Corvair
> > > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------
> > > Andy Shontz
> > > CH601XL - Corvair
> > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919
>
>
> >======
>
>
>
>
>
>
Back to work after baby? how do you know when you?re ready?
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178974#178974
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
At 07:34 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Bob wrote:
>This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What
>do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to
>know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each
>and every XL or what is different.
>1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and
>not scratach built?
>2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?
>etc.
>There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or
>pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the
>design of the craft.
>It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of
>sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is
>common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.
>Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.
>
>
>Bobefx
>601XL QB 3300A
>N642Z reserved
I very much agree with Bob on this. In fact, on March 15, during the
discussion of the Barcelona accident, I used ZAC's website inquiry
submittal form to send the following message to ZAC. To date, I have not
received a response from ZAC.
>>The July/August 2007 Zenair newsletter contained a "Memo from Chris,"
>>which said, "I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of
>>structural load tests ... In order to make absolutely certain noting is
>>missed, an independent structural engineer will confirm the finding of
>>these rigorous tests."
>>
>>In view of the recent accident near Barcelona, Spain, I would very much
>>like to review whatever report or analysis was produced by the engineer
>>who did these tests. Also, I wonder if you can tell me why negative G
>>load stresses were not done in the 2007 series of tests.
>>
>>Also, there has been lots of speculation on the Matronics Zenith-List
>>regarding the CH601XL accidents that have involved "elements of in-flight
>>break up." I believe it would be a good public relations action by Zenith
>>if you could make available a tabulation of information about these
>>accidents showing: 1) Whether the aircrafts were kit-built, plan-built,
>>quick-builds, or AMD-built; 2) Options included in the aircraft, e.g.,
>>wing lockers, etc.; 3) Known information about the in-flight breakup; 4)
>>Hours on the airframe; 5) Conclusions of the FAA or NTSB regarding the
>>accident; 5) Engines used on the aircraft; 6) Any other information that
>>might indicate trends or patterns regarding the crash
>>
>>
>>How can we make our web site more useful to you as a builder?
>>
>>Add an RSS function to your web site so that builders will be notified
>>automatically whenever you update the site.
Someone needs to collect this data so that the common threads, if any, can
be identified. I would hope that ZAC has this data. I believe it would be
good PR to make the data available and let the Zenith builders community
pore over it.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
In our 701 in the left Rudder pedal (with my best english) we broked twice the
outer wire from the pin... The pin did not came off in either two of the events
(was hold by the remaining wire. The first time we just changed the pin
(in the prefight) and that was it.
The second time the wire of the pin broked (rubbing with the shoe, I think)
we chosed to put a safety wire, it went inside the hole of the bolt and around
the two strips and twisted in the back. Has worked perfectly (40 hrs to date
since the change).
I think the material of the safety wire will resisit the job in this particular
bolts.
Probably a photo is better, but until next sunday or monday.
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S (about 150 hrs) Cant remember exactly.
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag the
pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates the pin can
fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the same set up for
the rudder cables and after a few pins came out they advised NOT to us castle
nuts in that situation.
43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject
to rotation.
Steven Bornstein
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net
writes:
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out
a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on
the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements
of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Thank you Terry, for getting my point accross better than I did.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:35:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
At 07:34 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Bob wrote:
This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all
the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all
the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL
or what is different.
1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach
built?
2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?
etc.
There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing
the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the
craft.
It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor,
who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all
601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.
Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.
Bobefx
601XL QB 3300A
N642Z reserved
I very much agree with Bob on this. In fact, on March 15, during the discussion
of the Barcelona accident, I used ZAC's website inquiry submittal form to send
the following message to ZAC. To date, I have not received a response from ZAC.
The July/August 2007 Zenair newsletter contained a "Memo from Chris," which said,
"I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of structural load
tests ... In order to make absolutely certain noting is missed, an independent
structural engineer will confirm the finding of these rigorous tests."
In view of the recent accident near Barcelona, Spain, I would very much like to
review whatever report or analysis was produced by the engineer who did these
tests. Also, I wonder if you can tell me why negative G load stresses were not
done in the 2007 series of tests.
Also, there has been lots of speculation on the Matronics Zenith-List regarding
the CH601XL accidents that have involved "elements of in-flight break up." I
believe it would be a good public relations action by Zenith if you could make
available a tabulation of information about these accidents showing: 1) Whether
the aircrafts were kit-built, plan-built, quick-builds, or AMD-built; 2) Options
included in the aircraft, e.g., wing lockers, etc.; 3) Known information
about the in-flight breakup; 4) Hours on the airframe; 5) Conclusions of the
FAA or NTSB regarding the accident; 5) Engines used on the aircraft; 6) Any other
information that might indicate trends or patterns regarding the crash
How can we make our web site more useful to you as a builder?
Add an RSS function to your web site so that builders will be notified automatically
whenever you update the site.
Someone needs to collect this data so that the common threads, if any, can be
identified. I would hope that ZAC has this data. I believe it would be good PR
to make the data available and let the Zenith builders community pore over it.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done;
working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
So, has anyone called Zenith lately to talk to Nick or Sebastian? I'm thinking
of just giving them a call and seeing what they have to say and if they can provide
any additional information but would like to know if anyone has done so
lately.
Scott
--------
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178988#178988
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Good a licenced A&P. Would you OK a lock nut in the same position?
frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote:
> You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reason
you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annually, the
aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant rated mechanic.
I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated nut secured
by safety wire.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178992#178992
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| Subject: | Re: SIX Figure Sum |
Who's paying a "SIX figure sum" for a XL ? Write my PM and I'll put you in a great
XL, faster and prettier than that AMD thing for only a Five figure sum!? Contact
me first, and best regards, Bill of Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 9:27 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 08:39:29PM -0700, Matt Ronics wrote:
> For reasons some people such as yourself can't understand, some of us have
> professional and/or personal reasons not plaster our name on the internet.
As a minor celebrity, I've got as much reason as anyone to want to divorce
myself from my words. My sense of integrity does not allow me to do so.
> I'm not a troll and I don't work in the airplane business.
Prove it.
> I'm not trying to kid myself and others that the half-finished XL in my
> garage is safe because--I don't have one.
I'm not either, even though I've got more reason than a lot of folks to want
to be sure - since I'm paying a six-figure sum to AMD for my Zodiac, above
and beyond the common factor of it being my butt in the cockpit. I'll
readily admit that I won't have the years of effort invested that most of
the folks on here do, however. (I'm jealous of those who are building:
they'll know their aircraft in a way I never will.)
> A few months ago several Zenith builders said "let's wait for the
> results." In the mean time, it APPEARS that we have lost another soul in
> an accident that may have been preventable.
True. OTOH, all we can do now is speculate, and that's not going to be any
better at producing a fix if one is needed.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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Frank,
The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft within
its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head
screwed on right.
It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay
ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have
to do something stupid
to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on
landing, etc.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Frank Roskind wrote:
> Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the
> fatal accidents on the link page provided
> http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four
> XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved
> inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could
> have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure,
> but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes,
> Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the
> earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me,
> the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is
> transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves
> the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing
> situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted
> its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I
> would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the
> wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an
> apparent stall/spin.
>
> As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent
> stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange
> TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH.
> There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which
> may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws
> caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
>
> Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to
> stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had
hinged do we know which type the others had?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178993#178993
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| Subject: | Re: I must say................... |
I must say that i agree with this idea as i have previously posted , and the situation
gets worse , because as the rear attachment breaks away , the wing will
rotate up and around the main spar , just a little movement up at the rear attachment
, will drive the flap down via the flap pin , take a look at picture
019 closely at the attachment , this looks like a chunk missing , not a bolt
tear out, and this is twice as thick as its tab on the fuselage , perhaps the
dreaded fatigue is an issue here . I am going to be looking very closely at this
area before next flight .
regards to you all , and hope we can get it sorted soon for peace of mind.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178995#178995
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| Subject: | Sun N Fun Thank You |
Hi Jim,
Thanks for putting the Angel-1 project together - I wish I could have stayed
longer! But it was great to rivet a little again.
You may have seen this - Dave Higdon and I both wrote blog entries for the
Kiplanes news blog on the project:
www.kitplanesmag.blogspot.com
Also, Jim, the June issue of Kitplanes, just coming out, has the lowdown on
the SportAir workshops I tried at Osh, and you're in there! Thanks again for
your help.
Best, Cory
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
planejim@bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Sun N Fun Thank You
Fellow Zenith Builders,
Do not archive
Please allow me to thank all those who helped with the Zenith 701 known as
Angel-1 in the basic Sheet Metal Workshop at Sun n fun recently.
I would like to list all of you by name, but I'm afraid I'd miss someone. It
was a great learning experience for all of us. We didn't get it finished,
but we knew that going in. Our objective was to expose aviation enthusiests
of all ages to actually working on a kit aircraft. In that we succeded.
We will update you from time to time as the airplane progresses forward.
Thanks again for your help.
Jim Hoak - 601HD
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
Since this thread is still continuing, let me add one more suggestion. Ther
e are self-locking castle nuts available from AS. They are number MS17825.
I used them on my alieron cable connections at control pivot.
George May
601XL 912s
From: frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COMTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Zen
ith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:07:58 -0400
You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reas
on you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annuall
y, the aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant ra
ted mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated n
ut secured by safety wire.> From: jmcburney@pobox.com> To: zenith-list@matr
onics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Thu, 24 A
<jmcburney@pobox.com>> > If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pi
ns being worked loose (by> feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wir
e instead of cotter pins in> the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut,
twist it, run through the> clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the c
levis. Try it, you may like> it.> > Blue skies and tailwinds> > Jim> CH-801
> DeltaHawk diesel> Augusta GA> 90% done, 90% left> >=======
=================> > >
In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
No> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> From: wr.giacona@suddenlin
k.net> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:59:01 -0700> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
.net>> > Good a licenced A&P. Would you OK a lock nut in the same position?
> > > > frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote:> > You may hold a repairman's cert
ificate after you build, but if for any reason you are unavailable to perfo
rm the condition inspection required annually, the aircraft would have to b
e inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant rated mechanic. I, for one, would
not risk my certificate on a castellated nut secured by safety wire.> > >
--------> W.R. "Gig" Giacona> 601XL Under Construction> See my pr
ogress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR> > > > > Read this topic online here:>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178992#178992> > > > > > >
==> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in
the game.
http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april
08
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So
that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build
exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear
design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be
seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of
almost 300 is a very small percentage.
Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about
had hinged do we know which type the others had?
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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| Subject: | What every homebuilder needs ( slightly off-topic ) |
An old Popular Science article from 1938 detailing a "mobile airport".
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/04/23/this-automobile-is-a-complete-airport/?Qwd=./PopularScience/12-1938/auto_airports&Qif=auto_airports_0.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=XL#qdig
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
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But I would bet that every pilot who crashed in a stall/spin thought he was
proficient enough.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:03:41 -0500> From: larry@mac
smachine.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:
ne.com>> > Frank,> The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the
aircraft within > its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have
your head > screwed on right.> It's much harder to get into that stall spi
n if you practice to stay > ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft
and you definitely have > to do something stupid> to get the stall spin. E
xample, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on > landing, etc.> > Larry McFar
land 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> do not archive> > Frank Roskind wrote:>
> Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the > >
fatal accidents on the link page provided > > http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four > > XL accidents and no other zodiac
600 or 601 fatal accidents involved > > inflight breakups. One of those, C
anadian TX, was in IMC, so it could > > have a lot of causes not related to
the worthiness of the structure, > > but three were apparent breakups with
no apparent intervening causes, > > Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk Ci
ty, FL. When I look at the > > earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, on
e thing jumps out at me, > > the main landing gear. The stress going into t
he main landing gear is > > transmitted much more closely to the wing root
on the XL, and involves > > the equivalent of a negative load on the wing s
par in most landing > > situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear,
which transmitted > > its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on t
he wing spar. I > > would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which
flexes the > > wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, whic
h was an > > apparent stall/spin.> > > > As far as HDS safety, I would note
htat there were three apparent > > stall/spins in the record, Farmington D
E, Leominster MA, and Orange > > TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601
stall spin at Wooster OH. > > There were also two engine out fatalities, on
e HDS at Orange TX which > > may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL
at Basye VA, which ws > > caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a m
idair at Pohatcong, NJ.> > > > Going to the HDS will apparently change your
risk from structural to > > stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.>
-========================
==> > >
_________________________________________________________________
In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City?
From: Afterfxllc@aol.comDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:17:21 -0400Subject: Re: Z
enith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos LinkTo: zenith-list@matronics.com
The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So
that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build ex
actly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a
clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we wou
ld be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4
out of almost 300 is a very small percentage.
Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about
had hinged do we know which type the others had?
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A
OL Autos.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!
http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale
=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL
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| Subject: | Lowrance 2000C GPS Question |
Jeff--
If I understand your question correctly, the answer is no. I spoke with t
he Lowrance folks at Sn-n-Fun about a similar issue of having the detail of
the mapcreate loaded with the Terrain Awareness info and was told it is no
t supported. With the mapcreate you can zoom in to 5 and 10 miles with grea
t detail, however, with both databases on the same chip, zooming in on the
terrain awareness will get very grainy at 15miles.
George May
601XL 912s> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:29:32
-0400> Subject: Zenith-List: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question> From: beachyjeff@
@juno.com>> > For those of you who have mastered the Lowrance 2000C GPS, I
have a> question. Is it possible to combine a Mapcreate map with the Av map
> pre-loaded onto the 2000C card? I can make detailed maps with the> Mapcre
ate program, but I cannot get the GPS to show the Av map in> conjunction wi
th the higher detail afforded by a Mapcreate map. Has> anyone succeeded in
========================> _
===============> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in
the game.
http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april
08
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on. I counted
about 240 registered XL's in the US. 4 structural failures equals 1.7%. That
seems quite high to me. I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's
on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities. Planes
just don't break up at that rate.
Flight design sold 232 aircraft in 2007 with many more already flying. What would
everyone think of them if they had 4 structural failures in the last two years?
Go ahead and look at the fatality stats for the other top LSA or even homebuilts.
Nowhere close to 1.7% structural failure rate or even fatality rate.
I was not part of the panic crowd earlier as I tried to explain away the other
issues but standing back and looking at 4 structural failures out of 240 in the
US, something isn't right here.(regardless of wheather we know why) I fully
understand the risk of flying and building, but not when the deck is stacked
against me from the beginning. If there are 120 of you reading this and building
now, 2 of you will die from a structural failure at 1.7%. Think that's a low
number now? What about the 120 people in your EAA chapter. Expect that 2 of
them will have structural failures?
I know we don't want to hear this but there is a problem of some sort and I'm not
sure what to do now with my 80% complete airframe and brand new engine. I
don't want to invest more time and money into a flawed machine. I wouldn't fly
my 172 if 1.7% of them were failing structurally.
If anyone wants a plane or jab 3300 let me know, I think I'm done....
> The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that
don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly
the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design
flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing
a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost
300 is a very small percentage.
>
[Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad]
--------
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179014#179014
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lsa_2007_908.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I
asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal
with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to
where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a
lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big
difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material
now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while
turning it and see how fast your tool blows up.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:38:35 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City?
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that
don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the
same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design
flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing
a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300
is a very small percentage.
Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had
hinged do we know which type the others had?
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I
asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal
with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to
where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a
lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big
difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material
now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while
turning it and see how fast your tool blows up.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:38:35 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City?
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that
don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the
same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design
flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing
a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300
is a very small percentage.
Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had
hinged do we know which type the others had?
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is
actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Scott,
You went from calling the factory to see if there was more info to selling off
your plane and engine in a little over an hour.
Slow down, man. Take a break from building if you need to.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179017#179017
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
I didn't know they made those. That sounds like the best solution.
Thanks George.
gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM wrote:
> Since this thread is still continuing, let me add one more suggestion. There
are self-locking castle nuts available from AS. They are number MS17825. I used
them on my alieron cable connections at control pivot.
>
> George May
> 601XL 912s
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179018#179018
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I have not calculated my empty weight on my XL yet but would like to ask
you finished builders what can I expect...
I have a Jabiru 3300A, painted airframe, wheel pants and basic steam
gauges....
If my numbers allow, I ll be calling BRS. They want $4K for the 601 XL
system but geeze, I just spent $240 per night in Las Vegas. Twenty
nights stay , My life is worth lots more than those....
Steve W.
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear
spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long
uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination
causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these
planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not
somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is
going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of
engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also
cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground
observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily.
The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic
failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the
aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of
center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where
the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would
explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the
main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large
section of center spar attached to the wing.
I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
Jim
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
Bob,
Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that
CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think
they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad
mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.
Jay in Dallas
Bob Sturgis <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit
is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.
>Bobefx
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
>> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
>
>AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
I stayed the whole day at the factory in Mexico, Missouri and watched them
make may of the components of the kit right there. The CNC machine was making
nose ribs and they had different stations all over the factory. I also
watched the fuel tanks being welded. The main spar was not made there and was
done by someone else, but most of the kit is made on sight.
Larry Husky
N667H (Reserved)
601XL/O-200
In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:41:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bobefx@yahoo.com writes:
I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no
kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north
America.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
(mailto:jmaynard@conmicro.com) >
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC _http://www.conmicro.com_
(http://www.conmicro.com/)
_http://jmaynard.livejournal.com_ (http://jmaynard.livejournal.com/)
(http://www.tronguy.net/)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Castellated Nuts. |
also, cotterpins becoming undone if installed correctly can usually be managed
by reversing the direction of insertion of the bolt to result in the nut/cotterpin
on the side away from the dragging interface.
not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out
a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on
the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements
of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Aerolitellc@aol.com
>Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.
>
>
>I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that
>attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There
>were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes
>catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and
>replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same
>problem with the 601.
>
>The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but
>my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins.
>
>
>**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
>listings at AOL Autos.
>(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
Hi Jay,
I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced.
Mine was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC)
John
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all
that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you
think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real
bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.
>
> Jay in Dallas
>
>
> Bob Sturgis <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit
is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.
>> Bobefx
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
>>
>>> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
>>>
>> AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
>> --
>> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 67
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With the XL and the BRS it isn't so much the weight that gets you as the
W&B. Play with the W&B spreadsheet at the link below and you will see what I
mean. I believe the numbers in the spreadsheet come from Gary Ray's
Corvair-powered XL so it may be heavier and have a more forward CG than a
Jabiru-powered XL. Also it includes 25 pounds of "caudal" (tail) ballast in
cell C8 that you could remove. But you can still see the effects of sticking
25-30 pounds in the middle of the luggage deck. If you could place the
canister at the CG it would be a different story. I believe that CZAW placed
the canister between the firewall and panel when they placed a chute in an
XL (Evektor does the same thing) but I don't know how it squeezed past the
canopy. I have yet to see photos of an installation that uses the new
triangular upper motor mounts.
http://www.ch601.org/resources/W
<http://www.ch601.org/resources/W&B/ZodiacXLWBFinal.xls>
&B/ZodiacXLWBFinal.xls
Also a search the archives for "WB-601XL.xls" should locate a message from
"David X" and a link to his XL/Rotax W&B spreadsheet:
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=1876&sid=0c429a4e9894d63fb897b80
fe91763bd
See Scott Laughlin's site for detailed photos of installing a BRS in an XL.
But Scott has never published his W&B numbers:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BRS.html
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Empty weight
I have not calculated my empty weight on my XL yet but would like to ask you
finished builders what can I expect...
I have a Jabiru 3300A, painted airframe, wheel pants and basic steam
gauges....
If my numbers allow, I ll be calling BRS. They want $4K for the 601 XL
system but geeze, I just spent $240 per night in Las Vegas. Twenty nights
stay , My life is worth lots more than those....
Steve W.
Message 68
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| Subject: | Who made the parts |
I believe it is mentioned in the archives somewhere that the spars are all
made by Zenith in Canada.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
Bob,
Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have
all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do
you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some
real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.
Jay in Dallas
Bob Sturgis <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no
kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north
America.
>Bobefx
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
>> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
>
>AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>
Message 69
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| Subject: | Who made the parts |
For the QBKs I believe the parts are made in North America just like the
kit
parts and then shipped to AeroLeaver in Bogot=E1. You can see photos of
the
jigging and assembly process at AeroLeaver on Zenith=92s web site here:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html
Zenith has never made a secret of this. A caption on this page says
=93Fuselage construction jig at the AeroLeaver factory=94:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk-photos1.html
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Davis
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
Hi Jay,
I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced.
Mine
was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC)
John
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
Bob,
Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC
have
all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico?
What do
you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed
some
real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.
Jay in Dallas
Bob Sturgis <mailto:bobefx@yahoo.com> <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that
no
kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north
America.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Maynard <mailto:jmaynard@conmicro.com>
<jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
<mailto:jmaynard@conmicro.com> <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
correctly stated Frank - but as you stated, "often". Flutter always results from
some instability that goes divergent - and speed simply increases the motive
forces in a drastically non-linear way. Everyone talks about the light or touchy
control feel in the XL. I mentioned it before but no-one but Sabrina even
acknowledged it: what about anti-servo tabs to increase the control feel and centering?
IF it is a flutter issue or something similar, then there is a basic
instability under dynamic loads that needs to be taken care of; anti-servo systems
simply increase the difficulty a pilot would have in exciting the initial
event?????
Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look.
> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500
> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
> > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
> > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
> > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
> > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
> > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
>
> Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),
> how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>=======================
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Back to work after baby how do you know when youre ready?
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
Jay,
Not passing as truth. Asking what I can't find out from Zenith. As posted on this
site, a factory in Columbia seems to be the main manufacture at this time.
Call and ask Roger who manufactures the kits and see what you get.
I hope they find an answer and I can feel good about building what I feel is a
fun, first in class, good all-around aircraft. Zenith just be up front and answer
questions with honesty.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: "Jaybannist@cs.com" <Jaybannist@cs.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:26:05 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
Bob,
Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that
CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think
they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad
mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.
Jay in Dallas
Bob Sturgis <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit
is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.
>Bobefx
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
>> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
>
>AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
Who puts together the QB kits?
----- Original Message ----
From: "LHusky@aol.com" <LHusky@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:35:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
I stayed the whole day at the factory in Mexico, Missouri and watched them make
may of the components of the kit right there. The CNC machine was making nose
ribs and they had different stations all over the factory. I also watched the
fuel tanks being welded. The main spar was not made there and was done by
someone else, but most of the kit is made on sight.
Larry Husky
N667H (Reserved)
601XL/O-200
In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:41:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobefx@yahoo.com
writes:
I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is
actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:
> AMD does not build from scratch or do they.
AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
N5886Q's empty weight is 860 which includes 4 gallons unusable fuel. With full
fuel, it can carry 340 pounds (My mom, dad, headsets and maps, no luggage.)
N42845's sheet shows it can carry 339 pounds with full fuel.
It is amazing that AMD reaches 770 or the Rotax listed comes in at 734.
My aircraft weighed in in the high 7s with 3 bathroom scales, but 10% more with
scales calibrated for the range of weights actually applied to them. (200-400
vs. 0-200)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179036#179036
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
>> I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are. <<
That's an understatement, Jim. Along with the NTSB sifting through the evidence
with their fine toothed combs, you can bet that Zenith is also playing a big
part in the determination of the causal factors.
I just spoke with Sebastien at Zenith, and he did say that they're between a rock
and a hard place in being able to release any of the specific findings of the
investigation until the report is released by the NTSB.
But, I can share what he told me. So far, the investigation into the California
and Florida crashes hasn't turned any single "smoking gun" failure mode common
to either one. He assured me, that if they had found anything that implicated
the airworthiness of the fleet, that there would be an immediate release about
it.
His own feeling is that there's just no way a 601 can suffer an in-flight breakup
without encountering some massive G loads at some point in its past, overstressing
the structure. As someone who has seen the cumulative effects of crack
propagation in aluminum airframe structures (certified aircraft), I would tend
to agree with him.
So, I'll keep flying my 601 XL, but I will take a bit of extra time during the
preflight, and check the main and rear spar attachments. I'll also take a very
close look at all of the attach fasteners to make sure that they're not fretting,
or torqued properly.
Like everyone else whose butt is on the line every time they saddle up in a 601
(or any other aircraft), I'm looking forward to the day we have some concrete
answers.
But in the mean time, I'll exercise a little extra vigilance while inspecting the
airframe.
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
-----Original Message-----
>From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>Sent: Apr 24, 2008 2:26 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
>
>I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>
>In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
>culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
>think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear
>spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long
>uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination
>causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these
>planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not
>somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is
>going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of
>engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also
>cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground
>observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily.
>The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic
>failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the
>aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of
>center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where
>the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would
>explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the
>main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large
>section of center spar attached to the wing.
>
>I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>
>Jim
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I think that is a bit unfair... We don't see the details of other planes
crashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of
impact. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issues
and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith has
done. I have it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on radar
ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does that
tell
us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a experimental crash
so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA should get
together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doing it to our
satisfaction.
This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on. I
counted about 240 registered XL's in the US. 4 structural failures equals 1.7%.
That seems quite high to me. I also looked at the NTSB records for the top
LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few
fatalities. Planes just don't break up at that rate.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
You guys are coming up with some valuable information. What a knowledge base exist
out there. It is greatly appreciated.
My personal feeling is my brother picked the plane up just before AMD was going
to Oshkosh that year. I think they may have been in a rush to complete the
plane. Like I said in the Forum, There were issues right from the beginning.
When he was going for the check-out flight the pitot static system was not working.
The brakes had low fluid and did not wore (had to be bled and filled).
The pitot static fitting to the auto pilot was cross-threaded. I believe one
of the fuel gauges did not work, so they pulled one from another airplane.
When my brothers were flying to Minnesota from Eastman Georgia they had to disconnect
the auto-pilot because it would make drastic changes. When they got
here (Lakeville, Mn) they replaced the auto-pilot with a new one.There was oil
under the plane. We looked around a bit and found that it was coming from
the starter (a small hole in the back). A piece of tape proved where the leak
was. He eventually received a new starter and the same thing occurred. A magneto
was also replaced.
With the starter it was determined that there was excessive crankcase pressure
(Continental O-200). I believe they (an AP) replaced a cylinder and at that
time they noticed a crack in the prop. The AP check and found the wrong bolts
(too long) were used for the prop and when torqued down to specs there must
have been some play. Maybe this created some harmonics of some sort during the
previous 90 hours which may lead to fatigue (just a guess).
My brother was also taking the LSA AP classes and received a certificate. They
looked at the plane during the class. There was some mention of "smoking rivets"
in the undercarriage. To my best recollection AMD told him to maybe use
"wet rivets" or something at the next annual.
I had also been told that in some cases when putting the wings on that some people
may have pounded the wing attach bolts to get things lined up during assembly,
which I feel would create a stress riser.
Hope this enlightens a little bit.
IMPORTANT: It also has come to my attention that the A&P that discovered the cracked
prop and torque problem, along with the instructor for my brothers LSA A&P
are being litigated against.
I hope to get someone at the NTSB to look at this forum and see all the valuable
aids that may be here for their research.
Thanks to every one of you,
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179037#179037
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Tort liability is among the reasons I neither fix airplanes, nor practice l
aw anymore. It seems to me that unreasonable standards of care will be app
lied by unknowledgeable juries and other finders of fact.
Frank
do not archive> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link> From
: donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:29:59 -0700> To:
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>> > You guys are coming up with some valuable
information. What a knowledge base exist out there. It is greatly apprecia
ted.> > My personal feeling is my brother picked the plane up just before A
MD was going to Oshkosh that year. I think they may have been in a rush to
complete the plane. Like I said in the Forum, There were issues right from
the beginning. When he was going for the check-out flight the pitot static
system was not working. The brakes had low fluid and did not wore (had to b
e bled and filled). The pitot static fitting to the auto pilot was cross-th
readed. I believe one of the fuel gauges did not work, so they pulled one f
rom another airplane.> When my brothers were flying to Minnesota from Eastm
an Georgia they had to disconnect the auto-pilot because it would make dras
tic changes. When they got here (Lakeville, Mn) they replaced the auto-pilo
t with a new one.There was oil under the plane. We looked around a bit and
found that it was coming from the starter (a small hole in the back). A pie
ce of tape proved where the leak was. He eventually received a new starter
and the same thing occurred. A magneto was also replaced.> With the starter
it was determined that there was excessive crankcase pressure (Continental
O-200). I believe they (an AP) replaced a cylinder and at that time they n
oticed a crack in the prop. The AP check and found the wrong bolts (too lon
g) were used for the prop and when torqued down to specs there must have be
en some play. Maybe this created some harmonics of some sort during the pre
vious 90 hours which may lead to fatigue (just a guess).> My brother was al
so taking the LSA AP classes and received a certificate. They looked at the
plane during the class. There was some mention of "smoking rivets" in the
undercarriage. To my best recollection AMD told him to maybe use "wet rivet
s" or something at the next annual.> I had also been told that in some case
s when putting the wings on that some people may have pounded the wing atta
ch bolts to get things lined up during assembly, which I feel would create
a stress riser.> > Hope this enlightens a little bit. > > IMPORTANT: It als
o has come to my attention that the A&P that discovered the cracked prop an
d torque problem, along with the instructor for my brothers LSA A&P are bei
ng litigated against.> > I hope to get someone at the NTSB to look at this
forum and see all the valuable aids that may be here for their research.> >
Thanks to every one of you,> Don> > --------> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.> Pri
or Lake, Minnesota> Cessna 175 N7656M> Cessna 140 N90123> > > > > Read this
topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179037
-========================
========> > >
_________________________________________________________________
In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr
esh_realtime_042008
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
One more thing, there's a new letter from Chris on the Zenith site:
http://www.zenithair.com/news/index.html
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>Sent: Apr 24, 2008 2:26 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
>
>I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>
>In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
>culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
>think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear
>spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long
>uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination
>causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these
>planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not
>somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is
>going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of
>engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also
>cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground
>observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily.
>The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic
>failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the
>aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of
>center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where
>the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would
>explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the
>main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large
>section of center spar attached to the wing.
>
>I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>
>Jim
>
>
Message 79
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Title 49 of the US Code does require the NTSB to investigate all civil avia
tion accidents:
=A7 1132. Civil aircraft accident investigations
(a) General authority.--(1) The National Transportation Safety Board shall
investigate--
(A) each accident involving civil aircraft
From: Afterfxllc@aol.comDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:25:24 -0400Subject: Re: Z
enith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos LinkTo: zenith-list@matronics.com
I think that is a bit unfair... We don't see the details of other planes c
rashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of imp
act. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issu
es and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith
has done. I have it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on rad
ar ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does
that tell us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a exper
imental crash so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA s
hould get together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doin
g it to our satisfaction.
This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on. I coun
ted about 240 registered XL's in the US. 4 structural failures equals 1.7%
. That seems quite high to me. I also looked at the NTSB records for the
top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fat
alities. Planes just don't break up at that rate.
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A
OL Autos.
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=
5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I want to reiterate. I have great respect for Chris Heinz and his contributions
to aviation. If my father had any doubts of the integrity of the 601XL SLSA
he would not have purchased one. He also wanted the certified Continental.
You people are the experts and I have nothing but admiration for each and every
one of you. I hope this gets figured out so I can go fly a 601XL again in the
future.
Sincerely,
Don
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179046#179046
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
If you've got a wind tunnel,or can get some one to test it I've a complete
flying 601XL they can test.. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Maynard" <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:
>> After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets
>> attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at
>> a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment
>> causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron
>> hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.
>
> Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems
> reasonable),
> how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
Low reading bathrooms scales! Can I have them?
-- Craig
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Empty weight
N5886Q's empty weight is 860 which includes 4 gallons unusable fuel. With
full fuel, it can carry 340 pounds (My mom, dad, headsets and maps, no
luggage.)
N42845's sheet shows it can carry 339 pounds with full fuel.
It is amazing that AMD reaches 770 or the Rotax listed comes in at 734.
My aircraft weighed in in the high 7s with 3 bathroom scales, but 10% more
with scales calibrated for the range of weights actually applied to them.
(200-400 vs. 0-200)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179036#179036
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
if everyone would say for now we (meaning anyone thinking of or buying a part or
any kind of Zenair product connected to the 601XL) are not going to support
any purchases or make any purchases until Zenair comments are made and supported
we would get some action on thier part.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
I think that is a bit unfair...? We don't see the details of other planes crashes
so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of impact. I
know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issues and the
test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith has done. I have
it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on radar ascending and
descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does that tell us? The
NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a experimental crash so we get
less than great information. Someone from the EAA should get together a team
together and study crashes if no one else is doing it to our satisfaction.
This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on.? I counted
about 240 registered XL's in the US.? 4 structural failures equals 1.7%.? That
seems quite high to me.? I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's
on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities.? Planes
just don't break up at that rate.
?
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
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| Subject: | Fun flying in twin 601XLs |
I think we could all use this. The Smith brothers have been out having fun
in their 601XLs:
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_078.htm
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_079.htm
-- Craig
Message 85
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Are there any better pictures of the rear spar attach point. In the few where
that part shows, it looks like the bolt head pulled through the rear spar, but
where's the doubler plate that should be there? It seams like you'd be able to
see it in a few of the pictures, especially after having a bolt head pulled
through it. That attachment point can get a lot of stress, for example when
the pilot or passenger steps on the wing to get in and out of the aircraft, and
when the flaps are deployed.
It has also made me wonder if the NTSB looks into things like, whether the plane
is built to the plans, or do they just look for more common manufacturer defects.
Dan
601xl plans builder
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179057#179057
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
Spreadsheet Users:
Everybody that uses the Spreadsheet should save a copy to their own
computer and modify the data on the 'data' page to reflect the actual
weights and arms of your aircraft.
The second page also allows whatif data to be entered for partially
completed aircraft. Here you would weight your unfinished aircraft and
put your best guess weights & arms into the red lettered 'Projected
Weights & Arms' section for the items that remain to be completed.
On the front page I had an entry called 'caudal ballast' that refers
to a 25 lb sandbag that I used during my intial test flights to put the
CG in the middle of the envelope. The bag was secured to the rear of
the baggage compartment as far back as possible. You will not likely
need to carry this kind of weight and this can be zeroed out. I should
have left out that feature prior to posting the W&B calculator. At any
rate it is very easy to reconfigure for a perfect match to your own
aircraft.
One more point: credit is due Lincoln Probst who added the code and idea
to compute W&B at several points during a flight and plot each result on
the same graph, thereby giving minimum and maximum information all on
one page. Before this, I was printing out a page for each calculation
point.
Gary Ray -- 601XL 70.5 hrTT, WW Corvair Engine
davgray@sbcglobal.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Payne
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Empty weight
With the XL and the BRS it isn't so much the weight that gets you as
the W&B. Play with the W&B spreadsheet at the link below and you will
see what I mean. I believe the numbers in the spreadsheet come from Gary
Ray's Corvair-powered XL so it may be heavier and have a more forward CG
than a Jabiru-powered XL. Also it includes 25 pounds of "caudal" (tail)
ballast in cell C8 that you could remove. But you can still see the
effects of sticking 25-30 pounds in the middle of the luggage deck. If
you could place the canister at the CG it would be a different story. I
believe that CZAW placed the canister between the firewall and panel
when they placed a chute in an XL (Evektor does the same thing) but I
don't know how it squeezed past the canopy. I have yet to see photos of
an installation that uses the new triangular upper motor mounts.
http://www.ch601.org/resources/W&B/ZodiacXLWBFinal.xls
Also a search the archives for "WB-601XL.xls" should locate a message
from "David X" and a link to his XL/Rotax W&B spreadsheet:
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=1876&sid=0c429a4e9894d63f
b897b80fe91763bd
See Scott Laughlin's site for detailed photos of installing a BRS in
an XL. But Scott has never published his W&B numbers:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BRS.html
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:10 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Empty weight
I have not calculated my empty weight on my XL yet but would like to
ask you finished builders what can I expect...
I have a Jabiru 3300A, painted airframe, wheel pants and basic steam
gauges....
If my numbers allow, I ll be calling BRS. They want $4K for the 601
XL system but geeze, I just spent $240 per night in Las Vegas. Twenty
nights stay , My life is worth lots more than those....
Steve W.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 87
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| Subject: | Re: Who made the parts |
My question is, is it possible that AMD may have received excess inventory (fuselage,
wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac broke the affiliation?
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179059#179059
Message 88
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Zenithair and Zenair seem to be very actively supporting the NTSB investiga
tion. If you can name one specific thing they should be doing, then do so,
but to suggest a boycott is irresponsible.
Photos LinkDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:09:09 -0400From: passpat@aol.comif eve
ryone would say for now we (meaning anyone thinking of or buying a part or
any kind of Zenair product connected to the 601XL) are not going to support
any purchases or make any purchases until Zenair comments are made and sup
ported we would get some action on thier part.Pat-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.comTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008
6:25 pmSubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
I think that is a bit unfair... We don't see the details of other planes c
rashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of imp
act. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issu
es and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith
has done. I have it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on rad
ar ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does
that tell us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a exper
imental crash so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA s
hould get together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doin
g it to our satisfaction.
This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on. I coun
ted about 240 registered XL's in the US. 4 structural failures equals 1.7%
. That seems quite high to me. I also looked at the NTSB records for the
top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fat
alities. Planes just don't break up at that rate.
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A
OL Autos.
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=
5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
Message 89
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I must agree. I am not trying to point fingers. I feel Zodiac has a lot of integrity
and wants to resolve issues to a somewhat ambiguous set circumstances
in a diligent manner. I do hope they get all the support from any finding that
may develop
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179063#179063
Message 90
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Jim, just for the record,I've always thought the rear spar attachment was
the key to disaster I've thought every time I've removed or replaced a wing
"That wing would twist up in a flash if the bracket or the bolt ever failed"
I've thought that more than once. Time will tell.if I'am right or wrong. It
doesn't matter to me what the problem is or whose fault it is ,I just want
to see it found, and stop this losss of life.... Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>
> I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>
> In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
> culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
> think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear spar
> attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long uneventful
> trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination causing a failure
> of a weak joint. That would explain both of these planes having a problem
> near the end of their respective flights and not somewhere en route at
> cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is going to fail eventually
> with or without the added encouragement of engaging flaps. If the rear
> spar attachment failed. this would also cause a substantial low frequency
> flutter visible from a ground observer. The wing twisting would make the
> main spar fail rather easily. The wing would be loaded in ways that would
> cause a catastrophic failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces
> I can see the aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing
> creased aft of center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can
> see where the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it
> separated would explain how it could possibly even break the interior
> attachments of the main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures
> shows a large section of center spar attached to the wing.
>
> I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
Message 91
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 03:25:11PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:
> It is amazing that AMD reaches 770 or the Rotax listed comes in at 734.
That 770 is for a basic day VFR aircraft. I expect my XLi to come in around
820 or so, pretty well loaded, but with no BRS chute (which adds another 40
pounds, they tell me).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 92
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 03:26:19PM -0700, Rick Lindstrom wrote:
> So, I'll keep flying my 601 XL, but I will take a bit of extra time during
> the preflight, and check the main and rear spar attachments. I'll also
> take a very close look at all of the attach fasteners to make sure that
> they're not fretting, or torqued properly.
How would you do this on preflight? Where would you look, and what would you
do to make the places you're looking at accessible?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 93
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
Thats bad news for me.. If my 601 XL comes in at 800# the BRS is out.....
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Empty weight
>
> Low reading bathrooms scales! Can I have them?
>
> -- Craig
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:25 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Empty weight
>
>
> N5886Q's empty weight is 860 which includes 4 gallons unusable fuel. With
> full fuel, it can carry 340 pounds (My mom, dad, headsets and maps, no
> luggage.)
>
> N42845's sheet shows it can carry 339 pounds with full fuel.
>
> It is amazing that AMD reaches 770 or the Rotax listed comes in at 734.
>
> My aircraft weighed in in the high 7s with 3 bathroom scales, but 10% more
> with scales calibrated for the range of weights actually applied to them.
> (200-400 vs. 0-200)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179036#179036
>
>
>
Message 94
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Frank,
Over confidence will get you killed more often than not.
do not archive.
Frank Roskind wrote:
> But I would bet that every pilot who crashed in a stall/spin thought
> he was proficient enough.
>
> > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:03:41 -0500
> > From: larry@macsmachine.com
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD
> >
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
> >
> > Frank,
> > The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft
> within
> > its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head
> > screwed on right.
> > It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay
> > ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have
> > to do something stupid
> > to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on
> > landing, etc.
> >
> > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> > do not archive
Message 95
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 05:30:45PM -0700, PLAV8R - wrote:
> I must agree. I am not trying to point fingers. I feel Zodiac has a lot
> of integrity and wants to resolve issues to a somewhat ambiguous set
> circumstances in a diligent manner. I do hope they get all the support
> from any finding that may develop
I've given this a lot of thought. Basically, I've come to the conclusion
that ZAC, Zenair, and AMD all want this resolved badly, and when a
resolution is found, it's in their own interest to make sure the entire
fleet is retrofitted with whatever the fix is found to be. The delay in
releasing the results of the various accidents, and the delay in figuring
out what a fix is, is not good for their business. I'm going back to the AMD
factory next Monday, and will have this very conversation with John Degonia.
In the meantime, I'm going to complete the purchase of N55ZC, and will fly
it conservatively and stay well within its limits. If I happen to draw the
short straw, I will at least have had the opportunity to own and fly my own
aircraft - something I've wanted to do for a long time. Aviation is not
without risks. As I've said here before, all we can do is mitigate them.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 96
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I would expect nothing less from Zenith and Chris. They were outstanding
in their sale and support of my 801 kit. Human nature dictates them bei
ng very concerned, probably bordering on "freaking out" with all thats h
appened. I pray for a timely and safe outcome to this matter and still h
ave alot of faith in Zenith Aircraft....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote:
com>
One more thing, there's a new letter from Chris on the Zenith site:
http://www.zenithair.com/news/index.html
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>Sent: Apr 24, 2008 2:26 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
r.net>
>
>I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>
>In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
>culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
>think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear
>spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long
>uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination
>causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these
>planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and no
t
>somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is
>going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of
>engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also
>cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground
>observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily
.
>The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic
>failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the
>aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of
>center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where
>the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated woul
d
>explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of th
e
>main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large
>section of center spar attached to the wing.
>
>I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>
>Jim
>
>
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
_____________________________________________________________
Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resource
s.
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B5pgpBWiJYA588h0Vg9gqU4Hy6KPQ/
Message 97
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Hi guys,
The exposed portion of the center spar that's attached to the wing has a
great deal of
fracture, rivets still in place, which indicate failure along or near
the plane of stress. The
leveling corrections in flight and the low altitude suggest that the
pilot was aware of something
being amiss before the collapse or separation of the center spar. Folds
in the wing are prior
to the impact or wrenching stresses that unbuttoned the wing skin. Any
failure of the center spar
would progressively affect flap action and aileron responses. The major
pop would be the
center spar and its final break up. I'd conclude that construction or
materials or both will
be found to be compromised by the original builder within the center spar.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Rick Lindstrom wrote:
>>
>> I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>>
>> In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the
>> culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I
>> think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear
>> spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long
>> uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination
>> causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these
>> planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not
>> somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is
>> going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of
>> engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also
>> cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground
>> observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily.
>> The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic
>> failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the
>> aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of
>> center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where
>> the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would
>> explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the
>> main wing spar in the fuselage. *One of the pictures shows a large
>> section of center spar attached to the wing.*
>>
>> I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>
>
Message 98
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| Subject: | XL Plans for sale |
Hello all,
I have decided to build a bigger plane that's fits my flying needs better
than the XL.
I am nearing the end of my PP training and flying in a 152. Which has
similar weight restrictions with about a 510# useful load. This has shown
me that my wife and I will not be able to enjoy our flying like we want too.
Between the two of us we take up slightly more than 400# then add in full
fuel and baggage and we will easily be breaking gross every time we fly
together in the XL.
This has me looking at 4 seaters with higher speeds (for xcountry work),
that I can scratch build. Not many out there, but I am leaning toward the
Cozy Mark IV. And the Mazda rotary is intriguing, but I will most likely go
with the Lycoming since I think it still needs a little more development.
I have to admit that the fears of an in-flight failure, that are a hot topic
on the list now, have me concerned. But, I do believe that a man of CH's
caliber will not be happy with something that his kids cant fly in safely.
So ultimately I think the solution will be determined and corrected.
I am including:
1. Latest plans: 3rd edition, 3rd revision (serial # 6-6482) and a simple
form will put it in your name.
2. Zodiac CL Photo Assembly Guide CD
3. Print out of the Construction Standards
4. Print out of Rudder Skeleton from the Photo Guide
5. Zenair Newsletters (from the past two years or so)
6. Metal Working 101 DVD from the Homebuilthelp.com folks
I would like to get $300 for everything to help buy my next set of plans.
The first offer gets it.
This is a great bunch of folks and I have learned lots from all of you, but
it is time to stop trying to convince myself that the XL will be able to do
what I want. I am pretty cheap and money was the biggest factor I am
afraid.
I mostly regret not having something to hang the Corvair on since it just
will not have the power I need. I wonder if someone has tried a Corvair
twin?
Anyways I have rambled on enough, but Fly Safe.
Kindest Regards,
Matt Stecher
Message 99
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I thought the same thing..... What could have caused that??? Joe N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link
>
> I know, I had a made, I guess a snide remark, about the entire damn center
> spar being ripped out of the fuselage, that Gig didn't seem to like very
> much and called me on. What I was getting at in that remark was, "Holy
> cow, the entire center spar got ripped out and ripped apart the fuselage",
> but apparently that was lost in translation on him.
>
> This all occurred while these poor people were in the pattern apparently.
> And per his son, he was an excellent, diligent, healthy pilot no less. And
> I'm going to guess the wife probably knew how to fly too if the sons are
> all pilots. Sounds like a pilot family to me. And even if she wasn't a
> pilot, she probably knew at least the basics. Point being, if the guy had
> some sort of medical problem out of nowhere, there was in all probability
> a co-pilot sitting right next to him. Which would lead you to believe,
> sumpin' aint right with that particular plane anyway. Especially
> condidering the son doesn't think an explosion occurred. Apparently this
> is the plane where the rear spar bolts weren't installed. Who knows,
> maybe, maybe not.
>
>
> Sabrina wrote:
>> Those 4 bolts hold the wings to the aircraft. This is the only craft
>> where the center spar was pulled out of the craft (that I know of.) If
>> the other 8 bolts are torqued properly, a pre-flight of the wings would
>> indicate a solid wing but the rubber wing root fairing combined with the
>> spring gear would mask movement between the wing and the fuselage. It
>> could easily lead to fatigue failure of the 6-B13-1 uprights or
>> overstress 6-W7-2, the rear spar root doubler. See photo 19 (as pointed
>> out earlier.)
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178830#178830
>
>
>
Message 100
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| Subject: | Re: Haven't Forgotten New Lists... |
Thanks Matt. Will there also be a CH640 list? Sorry if this question has already
been asked.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179089#179089
Message 101
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| Subject: | Aileron Hinge Pins Failure |
When I was building my XL in 2004 & 5 ZAC sent out flap hinges in the kits
with aluminum pins instead of steel pins. They contacted us (me) and replaced
the pins for free. Could it be that the XLs with aileron hinges instead of the
sheet metal bend attachment has these aluminum pins ? If so they might be
failing ? Just a thought. Best regards, Bill
**************
Need a new ride? Check
out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 102
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| Subject: | Re: [Probable Spam] Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
I was thinking the same thing Larry, pictures 27 & 29 look like a bomb went off
on the center spar.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179098#179098
Message 103
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
Zoom in on photograph 019. I believe this photograph is key. The resolution is
good enough to very clearly show that a roughly square shaped piece is missing
from the area of 6W7-2 (the rear attachment doubler) of the left wing.
Note also the deformation of the metal immediately above (note the wing is upside
down) the location of the rear attachment bolt position. I believe this deformation
indicates the aft edge of the wing rotated upwards with respect to the
orientation of the aircraft in flight.
Also note that the aileron cables have been torn out through the skin and through
the 3rd and 4th lightening holes. This tear pattern could only occur if the
aft edge of the wing was rotating upwards.
Finally, look at the compression buckling of metal between lightening holes 1 and
2, which also appears consistent with the aft edge of the wing being rotated
up (with the aluminum rib buckling against the resistance of the main spar).
I would highly suggest a close inspection of 6W7-2 on flying XL's. I bet somebody
out there will find two horizontally oriented cracks - one crack above the
rear spar attachment bolt, and one crack parallel to the first and below the
rear spar attachment bolt.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179099#179099
Message 104
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
To Patrick and others speculating on possible causes to the Yuma City crash, please
understand I do not wish to offend any of you, but please I think we should
all be mindful of of a few things.
Please remember that someones family members were lost in this incident, and in
this case they also read and post on this list. I'm sure other families who have
suffered a similar loss could and probably have been reading our posts. Ladies
and Gentlemen, please keep this in mind when responding.
I really want to leave the debate on what happened here to structural engineers
who have the training and experience necessary to back up any of their analysis.
Another post did point out that this community knows more about this aircraft than
any one else, and I do believe that to be true. But remember as you look at
these pictures of the broken parts, trying to discover what parts failed is
important (as Patrick noted below) but to also understand the SEQUENCE in which
the failures occurred. Patrick saw the pullout damage to the rear spar attach
point, but consider that if the failure was elsewhere then you would reasonably
expect the rear attach point to be damaged. The real question is where did
the failure sequence begin??
Larry MacFarland, said in another post that we may well find that inferior materials
or out of spec materials may well be found to be the root cause. A telling
thought. Remember the United DC-10 crash in Sioux City?? Ultimately the failure
sequence was found to have started YEARS before the day of the crash, with
faulty materials in a turbine disk, when it was made years before.
The oldest XL in the fleet is the prototype, that I'm sure a number of us have
had a ride in. I'd be willing to bet a large amount of dollars that Nick and everybody
else at Zenith has already gone out and looked at the rear attachment
on that one, a number of times, and found nothing wrong. And don't forget that
XL takes a beating at airshows from all of the masses jumping in and out of
it to try it on for size. I'd be willing to bet that most of the "tourists" are
not as careful as we are around our own airplanes.
I am seeing the light at the end of the construction tunnel on my XL, and I will
complete mine if all goes well within the next year.
And on a cool morning, with a light wind, just after sunrise, while the air is
the most stable. I will take my XL to the air for its first flight. I will do
so confident in my skills as a builder, my skills as a pilot and in the design
of the airplane. I will be prudent and make sure that all is as safe as I can
make it. I will take no un-necessary risks. If after all is analyzed about these
incidents , and Zenith wants me to change a part or rebuild an assembly then
I will gladly do it, But as Gene Kranz, flight controller for Apollo 13 said
"lets not make things worse by guessing"
That quote is up on the wall of my shop
Larry Whitlow
601XL Builder
30+ year Pilot
1st time Airplane Builder
PatrickW wrote:
> Zoom in on photograph 019. I believe this photograph is key. The resolution
is good enough to very clearly show that a roughly square shaped piece is missing
from the area of 6W7-2 (the rear attachment doubler) of the left wing.
>
> Note also the deformation of the metal immediately above (note the wing is upside
down) the location of the rear attachment bolt position. I believe this
deformation indicates the aft edge of the wing rotated upwards with respect to
the orientation of the aircraft in flight.
>
> Also note that the aileron cables have been torn out through the skin and through
the 3rd and 4th lightening holes. This tear pattern could only occur if
the aft edge of the wing was rotating upwards.
>
> Finally, look at the compression buckling of metal between lightening holes 1
and 2, which also appears consistent with the aft edge of the wing being rotated
up (with the aluminum rib buckling against the resistance of the main spar).
>
> I would highly suggest a close inspection of 6W7-2 on flying XL's. I bet somebody
out there will find two horizontally oriented cracks - one crack above the
rear spar attachment bolt, and one crack parallel to the first and below the
rear spar attachment bolt.
>
> Patrick
> XL/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
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| Subject: | Re: Fun flying in twin 601XLs |
Thank you.... a nice reminder of what we all hope for.
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link |
/"The leveling corrections in flight and the low altitude suggest that
the pilot "/
I think you are referring to the Polk crash here. In this instance, the
wings were still attached with damage to the lower cap.
/"Initial examination of the wreckage revealed that the horizontal
stabilizer and rudder were separated from their respective attach
points, but remained co-located with the wreckage. Detailed examination
of the left wing revealed that the lower main wing spar cap was
fractured at the wing root. Portions of the left wing spar were retained
for further examination. The remainder of the main wing spar, which
extended through the fuselage and the right wing, was bent but remained
largely intact."
/I would like to see if the rear spar attachment failed on this one. I
am sure you read where they said the pilot had the aileron trim all the
way to one extreme. Yes, he knew he had a problem and was struggling
with control prior to his accident.
Jim
/
/
LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> The exposed portion of the center spar that's attached to the wing has
> a great deal of
> fracture, rivets still in place, which indicate failure along or near
> the plane of stress. The
> leveling corrections in flight and the low altitude suggest that the
> pilot was aware of something
> being amiss before the collapse or separation of the center spar.
> Folds in the wing are prior
> to the impact or wrenching stresses that unbuttoned the wing skin.
> Any failure of the center spar
> would progressively affect flap action and aileron responses. The
> major pop would be the
> center spar and its final break up. I'd conclude that construction or
> materials or both will
> be found to be compromised by the original builder within the center
> spar.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> Rick Lindstrom wrote:
>>> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>>>
>>> I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be
>>> the culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near
>>> destination (I think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near
>>> Lakeland. If the rear spar attachment is a problem area, then
>>> perhaps after this long uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are
>>> added near destination causing a failure of a weak joint. That would
>>> explain both of these planes having a problem near the end of their
>>> respective flights and not somewhere en route at cruise speed. If
>>> the joint is weak, then it is going to fail eventually with or
>>> without the added encouragement of engaging flaps. If the rear spar
>>> attachment failed. this would also cause a substantial low frequency
>>> flutter visible from a ground observer. The wing twisting would make
>>> the main spar fail rather easily. The wing would be loaded in ways
>>> that would cause a catastrophic failure. With the wing being exposed
>>> to these forces I can see the aileron unzipping. Notice in the
>>> pictures that the wing creased aft of center along a line
>>> perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where the ribs ripped)
>>> Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would explain how
>>> it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the main
>>> wing spar in the fuselage. *One of the pictures shows a large
>>> section of center spar attached to the wing.*
>>>
>>> I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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