---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/24/08: 106 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 2. 02:43 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (rdobson) 3. 04:09 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 5. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 6. 06:24 AM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona) 7. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Jim McBurney) 8. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez) 9. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 10. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Frank Roskind) 11. 07:12 AM - I must say................... (steve) 12. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 13. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 14. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 15. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis) 16. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Ken Lilja) 17. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland) 18. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 19. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (ella) 20. 08:01 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz) 21. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez) 22. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 23. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 24. 08:13 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6) 25. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (nyterminat@aol.com) 26. 08:35 AM - Lowrance 2000C GPS Question (Jeffrey A Beachy) 27. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jim Hoak) 28. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (John Warren) 29. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (nyterminat@aol.com) 30. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 31. 09:21 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (moorecomp) 32. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (William Dominguez) 33. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: 601HD (Frank Roskind) 34. 10:08 AM - Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis) 35. 10:32 AM - Re: Who made the parts (PatrickW) 36. 10:36 AM - Re: 601HD (ashontz) 37. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Terry Phillips) 38. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gary Gower) 39. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis) 40. 11:46 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6) 41. 12:02 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona) 42. 12:03 PM - Re: SIX Figure Sum (japhillipsga@aol.com) 43. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland) 44. 12:06 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Gig Giacona) 45. 12:09 PM - Re: I must say................... (GBzodiflyer) 46. 12:09 PM - Re: Sun N Fun Thank You (Cory Emberson) 47. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (george may) 48. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (Frank Roskind) 49. 12:16 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Jay Maynard) 50. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 51. 12:30 PM - What every homebuilder needs ( slightly off-topic ) (John Marzulli) 52. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (Frank Roskind) 53. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 54. 12:49 PM - Re: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question (george may) 55. 01:03 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (swater6) 56. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis) 57. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Bob Sturgis) 58. 01:35 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis) 59. 01:35 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Gig Giacona) 60. 01:38 PM - Re: Castellated Nuts. (Gig Giacona) 61. 02:15 PM - Empty weight (steve) 62. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier) 63. 02:30 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Jaybannist@cs.com) 64. 02:39 PM - Re: Who made the parts (LHusky@aol.com) 65. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Castellated Nuts. (David Downey) 66. 02:51 PM - Re: Who made the parts (John Davis) 67. 02:53 PM - Re: Empty weight (Craig Payne) 68. 02:57 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Craig Payne) 69. 03:10 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Craig Payne) 70. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (David Downey) 71. 03:21 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis) 72. 03:21 PM - Re: Who made the parts (Bob Sturgis) 73. 03:28 PM - Re: Empty weight (Sabrina) 74. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Rick Lindstrom) 75. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 76. 03:32 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R) 77. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 78. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Rick Lindstrom) 79. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 80. 04:05 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R) 81. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections) 82. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (Craig Payne) 83. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (passpat@aol.com) 84. 04:23 PM - Fun flying in twin 601XLs (Craig Payne) 85. 04:53 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (leinad) 86. 04:59 PM - Re: Empty weight (Gary Ray) 87. 05:11 PM - Re: Who made the parts (PLAV8R -) 88. 05:16 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Frank Roskind) 89. 05:34 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PLAV8R -) 90. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections) 91. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (Jay Maynard) 92. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 93. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Empty weight (steve) 94. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: 601HD (LarryMcFarland) 95. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Jay Maynard) 96. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (n801bh@netzero.com) 97. 06:36 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (LarryMcFarland) 98. 06:39 PM - XL Plans for sale (Matt Stecher) 99. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Southern Reflections) 100. 07:10 PM - Re: Haven't Forgotten New Lists... (seattle) 101. 07:34 PM - Aileron Hinge Pins Failure (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 102. 08:34 PM - [Probable Spam] Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (Ron Lendon) 103. 08:34 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (PatrickW) 104. 09:30 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (lwhitlow) 105. 09:47 PM - Re: Fun flying in twin 601XLs (Tim Juhl) 106. 11:39 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (James E. Lanier) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:09 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link It seems to me like we are trying hard to figure out a way to make this a wing failure scenario. I have showed the photos to a couple of engineers and they come to the same conclusion I did when I first saw the photos. That the lack of damage to the aileron hinge as shown in the picture would lead you to think the aileron exited the aircraft in cruise causing violent flutter and separation of the wing. I would like to know where the aileron was found in proximity to the wing. If the theory is correct it would be some distance behind the wing. from the eye witness statements that also sounds like what happened, the loud bang was the spar snapping at the attach point. If you look at the photo's on the cabin floor you can clearly see stress from the rivets being torn from there respective holes and you don't see this on the hinge so again I ask could someone that assembled the plane put in the wrong rivets? If you install a a 4 in a a 5 hole it will fill the hole and hold for a while but it will eventually give way. The KR guys said there was a video of a plane doing a high speed pass and the aileron separated from the wing and the aircraft tore itself apart and disintegrated in a matter of seconds. I am building a 601xl right now and am just a worried about the wing separations as the rest of you but we have to remember that it only takes a few minutes for things to go from bad to worse in the air. I think if we build them correctly and fly them as intended you will never have a problem but cut a few corners or install a part that is (Good enough) or even working when tired or fatigued or mad might just be the difference that has us doing this discussion. Jeff 601xl Corvair **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "rdobson" After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. Russell Dobson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178877#178877 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD From: "ashontz" Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD. Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work. One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD? I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi Andy, > The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have > to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep > it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to > Rotax and 0-200. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b] > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178880#178880 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:45 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote: > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable), how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:35 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote: > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way. Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like? If this is the problem, how would it be fixed? The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge. These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL. The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron trim? (N55ZC will...) The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim tab). -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: "Gig Giacona" They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally follow the advice of the ACs and the designer. msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote: > Gig. > > I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock nut, so they don't back off. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178897#178897 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:10 AM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pins being worked loose (by feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wire instead of cotter pins in the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut, twist it, run through the clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the clevis. Try it, you may like it. Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:52 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2 cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story. Also, in the accident in Oakdale CA where an XL folded its wing and crashed, a witness stated that the wing "visibly vibrate" (Incident # LAX06LA105). So the flutter hypothesis is a very valid one. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote: > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way. Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like? If this is the problem, how would it be fixed? The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge. These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL. The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron trim? (N55ZC will...) The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim tab). -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:57 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I would guess that if one of you who actually has or is building a 601 XL w ere to write the NTSB and voice your concerns regarding the integrity of th e wing structure, that the letter would result in more than a perfunctory r eport. I know several NTSB investigators personally, and I know that each of them has an incredible commitment to safety and to his or her job.> Subj ect: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link> From: pwhoyt@yahoo.com> Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" > > > ter_turn (at)yahoo.com wrote:> > I think we must rely on the experts if we are to le arn anything > > > Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 6 01XL. The NTSB guys are not. > > The one thing that we all can be 100% cert ain of is that the final NTSB report will be as useless as every other NTSB report has been on this matter.> > I rarely use the term "100%" for anythi ng, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely certain. It's up to us - th e 601XL experts.> > Patrick> XL/Corvair> N63PZ> > > > > Read this topic onl ine here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178827#178827> > ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april 08 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:28 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reas on you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annuall y, the aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant ra ted mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated n ut secured by safety wire.> From: jmcburney@pobox.com> To: zenith-list@matr onics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Thu, 24 A > > If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pi ns being worked loose (by> feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wir e instead of cotter pins in> the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut, twist it, run through the> clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the c levis. Try it, you may like> it.> > Blue skies and tailwinds> > Jim> CH-801 ===================> > > _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_realtime_042008 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:25 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: I must say................... With all of the speculation that goes on with you people, at first I thought "what a bunch of "Dopes". All B.S. and nothing substantial......... Well I ve changed my mind.................................. Thank you all for making me think SAFETY just a little(a lot) more. I read lots of ideas of why aircraft crash here on this website. I sure don't hear much from the Feds or NTSB.... Sure these agencies will publish their "facts" in the far future but I get much more from you in this group. Right or wrong, your ideas have me concerned... >From the first wing install on my 601 XL, I thought " if the rear ( drag) spar ever came loose, the wing would flap into destruction." The rear spar attach isn't very beefy. But then I ve never seen a drag spar that was... Not saying this was THE problem in 601 crashes but its something that needs and will be investigated.... When you guys and gals get the chance look how the wing acts with the rear spar bolt removed... Now I m reading your ideas on the possibility of a wing flap failure. Man . that's not a far out idea..... Anyway. Thanks to all of you for opening my eyes to safety even more. Steve W. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:15 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2 > cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story. Oh? Tell us more. I don't recall these. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher tr ue airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density al titudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/h p_limts.pdf It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com> onmicro.com>> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:> > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets> > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one a t> > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment> > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron> > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.> > Okkay, s o if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),> how w ould someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?> -- > Jay Ma ynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http:/ /www.tronguy.net> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi ========================> _ ===============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid= 5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:19 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote: > Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher > true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density > altitudes. For a discussion you might read > http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf > It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to > look. Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:50 AM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different. 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built? 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? etc. There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft. It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. Bobefx 601XL QB 3300A N642Z reserved do not archive ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:09:03 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote: > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way. Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like? If this is the problem, how would it be fixed? The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge. These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL. The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron trim? (N55ZC will...) The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim tab). -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:54 AM PST US From: Ken Lilja Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link According to McCauley propellers, neither the attach bolts or dowel pins on a Cessna T210 drive the propeller. The prop is driven by friction between the hub and flange developed by the nut torque clamping pressure. A bolt that is not coming up to torque is only acting as a pin and not a clamp. Also relative motion between parts would be a problem. It would be interesting to see if there was any fretting corrosion between the spar and carrythru. Ken Lilja Sabrina wrote: > > Look at Photo #28. AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think). The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1? Is it even an AN5-16A? > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:23 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD Andy, The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up in climb with an HD. Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large spar section etc, but still believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the common denominator will most likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials that were less than called for. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ashontz wrote: > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD. > > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work. > > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD? > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build. > >>> -------- >>> Andy Shontz >>> CH601XL - Corvair >>> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:20 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes. For a discussion you might read _http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf_ (http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look. If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have flutter. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:47 AM PST US From: "ella" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Hi Don Sorry for your loss I am building a 601XL Also had a Cessna 175 N7644M And my name is Don also Thanks Don From: "PLAV8R" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:12 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link > > > Hi Andy, > > My parents were not in the pattern, They were in normal cruise flight. > The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any > phase of flight. > Again, I am not trying to be negative. I would just like to get some > answers or good information. > This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago. > > Thanks again, you guys are great. > Don > > -------- > Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. > Prior Lake, Minnesota > Cessna 175 N7656M > Cessna 140 N90123 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857 > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD From: "ashontz" Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Andy, > The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long > wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up > in climb with an HD. > Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with > VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large > spar section etc, but still > believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials > requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the > common denominator will most > likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials > that were less than called for. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD. > > > > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work. > > > > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD? > > > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build. > > > > >> -------- > > >> Andy Shontz > > >> CH601XL - Corvair > > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:47 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2 > cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story. Oh? Tell us more. I don't recall these. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:13 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I didn't exclude flutter, but flutter usually does not sneak up on pilots i n straight and level flight at low altitude. Of course, were there some ch ange in the control surfaces, such as a loosening of a counterweight, or a hinge, then the flutter characteristics would change abruptly, but in those cases flutter would be a symptom, not a cause. If we had access to all of the pieces of the plane shortly after crash, then we would see shiny crack ed surfaceswhere the events in the last few moments of flight led to failur es and dull cracked surfaces next to shiny surfaces where a crack propagate d during failure. If a crack propagated, then it would be a great place to start looking. Anything which could cause a major vibration would be a go od place to start, including wing attach points, aileron and flap attach po ints, elevator hinges and attach points, engine mount, and propeller. Anot her place to check would be the control system. If the cables were to go s lack all of a sudden, bad things would happen, too. This is merely an atte mpt at logic. My bet is the NTSB already has such a checklist, and much be tter than my shooting from the hip here.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:27:13 - 0500> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:> > Flutter is an interesting hypothe sis, but flutter often occurs at higher> > true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density> > altitudes. For a discussion y ou might read> > http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf> > It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to> > look.> > Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see?> -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.t ronguy.net> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ========================> _ =============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause. MSN_Make_IM_Yours ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:11 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I agree, but flutter is the symptom, not the cause. From: Aerolitellc@aol.comDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:54:34 -0400Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos LinkTo: zenith-list@matronics.com In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, frankrosk ind@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher tr ue airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density al titudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/h p_limts.pdfIt doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the firs t place to look. If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have fl utter. Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A OL Autos. _________________________________________________________________ Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause. MSN_Make_IM_Yours ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "swater6" The common thing is that they are XL's. Check the NTSB reports. Two were kits, one was AMD production and one was CZAW production. Two wing folds and two in-flight break-ups. 4 fatal accidents with structural failure. Out of about 240 flying XL's......Is that a lot or a little???? Scott > This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different. > 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built? > 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? > etc. > There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft. > It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. > Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. > > > Bobefx > 601XL QB 3300A > N642Z reserved > do not archive > -------- 601 XL kit N596SW reserved Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178930#178930 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: nyterminat@aol.com Just use a bushing as suggested before and torque your nylon lock nut!!!!!! Bob Spudis They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally follow the advice of the ACs and the designer. msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote: > Gig. > > I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock nut, so they don't back off. > -----Original Message----- From: Gig Giacona Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 9:22 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. They are designed to be "lock nuts" when torqued. When not torqued I'm not sure they are locked. I'm not an engineer and that is one of the reasons I generally follow the advice of the ACs and the designer. msherman95632(at)yahoo.co wrote: > Gig. > > I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely to back off. Your kidding, right. That is the hole point of having a lock nut, so they don't back off. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178897#178897 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question From: Jeffrey A Beachy For those of you who have mastered the Lowrance 2000C GPS, I have a question. Is it possible to combine a Mapcreate map with the Av map pre-loaded onto the 2000C card? I can make detailed maps with the Mapcreate program, but I cannot get the GPS to show the Av map in conjunction with the higher detail afforded by a Mapcreate map. Has anyone succeeded in so doing? Jeff Beachy CH701, 61 hours ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:52 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Listers, You remember correctly. The 601XL over the cooling towers with possible flutter in Ga was Bill of GA. He reported extensively about it. At the time we thought is was mostly because of turbulence. Hey Bill, refresh our memories. Jim Hoak 601HD ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Jay Maynard wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > Now that you guys mention flutter, lets ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:43 AM PST US From: John Warren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter For example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight envelope. -Gus Frank Roskind wrote: > Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at > higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at > high density altitudes. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: nyterminat@aol.com That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in? The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the? AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida -----Original Message----- From: William Dominguez Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:59 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the? AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Jay Maynard wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > Now that you guys mention flutter, lets ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:54 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I don't think it stripped the heads off because you would still have some of the rivets in there respective holes and as you can see they are all missing. The only thing that would make sense to me judging from the two photo's are 1: The aileron connects on top of the hinge so if the rivet heads sheared you would still have some of the rivets in their respective holes and there are none. 2: None of the holes seem to be elongated or distorted from a rivet pulling thru as was the case with the cabin floor photos they seem to be all uniform and of proper edge distance. 3: If you look at photo 34 you can see half of the outboard hinge is rolled and pulled away from the wing but the pin is still present and a dent in the outboard flap. I would still like to know where the aileron ended up and what size rivets were in the hinge. Jeff After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "moorecomp" All, Please go back in time and read my post from Mar. 10th of 2006 regarding Bill Phillips request for "More stupid conjecture" of the Modesto crash. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=4519 Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it? I am still inclined to say a failure in the aileron control circuit, leading to flutter. In the current post-crash photos, look at the end rib of the left wing and see how the aileron control cables tore straight down through the wing? Also the upper spar caps are bent straight downward (not twisted) until failure. These 2 things indicate the wing was forced straight downward (there's that negative G thing again!) extremely hard. Probably not an aileron cable failure, because if one of the cables had failed, then it would be slack and not torn both locations equally. However, the large unbalanced aileron becoming disconnected would slam up and down violently enough to destroy the wing in a very short period of time, eventually ripping itself away. Especially at cruise speed, remember all the recent posts about "Maneuvering Speed" and "Full deflection of controls"? These uncontrolled deflections would be way more than normal full deflections. Someone looking for a common thread in these accidents should look at the fact that they all had electric trim systems installed - In the left aileron! Additional weight aft of the hinge line only makes an already unbalanced aileron condition even worse! Ok, so what would cause the aileron to become disconnected? Looking for a weak link in the system, I would first look at the small aileron control horn attached to the I/B .025" end rib of the aileron with 4 rivets. On the HD and HDS, the plans show that this part was a different configuration, much larger and fastened with more rivets. Heck, even the low and slow 701 has this plate made from .090" instead of .063" and it is fastened with 9 rivets in the .025" end rib and 4 more in a support L. Also, on the 601, due to the way the bell-crank moves the fwd. end of the push-rod in an arc, there is also some tension on these rivets, not just shear. All for now. Be safe. Craig Moore - A&P 701 builder wannabe - still Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178954#178954 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:56 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link You're correct. Here is a link to his message back in Jan 2007. http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=56316168?KEYS=flutter?LISTNAME=Zenith?HITNUMBER=148?SERIAL254221897?SHOWBUTTONS=YES William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom nyterminat@aol.com wrote: That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in? The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida -----Original Message----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:59 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > Now that you guys mention flutter, lets --------------------------------- Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:52 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 f atal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of t he structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the ma in landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitte d much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalen t of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analy sis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin. As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spi ns in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two e ngine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a s tall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Fina lly there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ. Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/ spin, with no apparent gain in safety.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD> Fr om: ashontz@nbme.org> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700> To: zenith-lis me.org>> > Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing ha s me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and s ee what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to thou gh. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for no w. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than an ything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I' m at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, b ut it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor.> > > larry(at) macsmachine.com wrote:> > Andy,> > The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long > > wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up > > in climb with an HD.> > Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with > > VGs under the st ab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large > > spar section e tc, but still> > believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings an d materials > > requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than lat er and the > > common denominator will most> > likely be either constructio n that varies from the design or materials > > that were less than called f or.> > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> > do not archive> > > > ashontz wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track re cord of the HD.> > > > > > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a h alf months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tape red or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly an d maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I d o some serious heads-down work.> > > > > > One thing I think I'd miss on th e HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?> > > > > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll prob ably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is f orthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airpl ane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.> > > > > > >> -- ------> > > >> Andy Shontz> > > >> CH601XL - Corvair> > > >> www.mykitlog.c om/ashontz> > > >>> > > >> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > --------> > > Andy Shontz> > > CH601XL - Corvair> > > www.mykitlog.com/as hontz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------> An dy Shontz> CH601XL - Corvair> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz> > > > > Read this t opic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#1 =======> > > _________________________________________________________________ Back to work after baby'how do you know when you=92re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid= 5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:13 AM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Zenith-List: Who made the parts That is what I am talking about. All were Kits. What was there origin? Who built the Kit? AMD does not build from scratch or do they. Did CZAW build the basic kit that was used to build the planes or where did they come from. No scratch builds have had the same problem, right? Who builds the kits for Zenith? They will not tell me who built my QB kit. It had a lot of Quality Control Problems and Poor workmanship. They may all be XL but not all XL are losing wings. Find the common thread, it could be who manufactured the kit. The basic kit, the parts. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: swater6 Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:10:40 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The common thing is that they are XL's. Check the NTSB reports. Two were kits, one was AMD production and one was CZAW production. Two wing folds and two in-flight break-ups. 4 fatal accidents with structural failure. Out of about 240 flying XL's......Is that a lot or a little???? Scott > This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different. > 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built? > 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? > etc. > There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft. > It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. > Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. > > > Bobefx > 601XL QB 3300A > N642Z reserved > do not archive > -------- 601 XL kit N596SW reserved Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178930#178930 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Who made the parts From: "PatrickW" The rivets...? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178973#178973 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD From: "ashontz" I was thinking HD, not HDS. But I'd probably build both sets of wings. Even so, I'd prefer to have both wings still on the plane if I were in a stall spin. [quote="frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C"]Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ (http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/) and looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin. As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ. Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety. > Subject: Re: 601HD > From: ashontz@nbme.org > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700 > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor. > > > larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > > Andy, > > The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long > > wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up > > in climb with an HD. > > Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with > > VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large > > spar section etc, but still > > believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials > > requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the > > common denominator will most > > likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials > > that were less than called for. > > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > do not archive > > > > ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD. > > > > > > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work. > > > > > > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD? > > > > > > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build. > > > > > > >> -------- > > > >> Andy Shontz > > > >> CH601XL - Corvair > > > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > Andy Shontz > > > CH601XL - Corvair > > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919 > > > >====== > > > > > > Back to work after baby? how do you know when you?re ready? > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178974#178974 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:15 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link At 07:34 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Bob wrote: >This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What >do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to >know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each >and every XL or what is different. >1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and >not scratach built? >2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? >etc. >There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or >pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the >design of the craft. >It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of >sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is >common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. >Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. > > >Bobefx >601XL QB 3300A >N642Z reserved I very much agree with Bob on this. In fact, on March 15, during the discussion of the Barcelona accident, I used ZAC's website inquiry submittal form to send the following message to ZAC. To date, I have not received a response from ZAC. >>The July/August 2007 Zenair newsletter contained a "Memo from Chris," >>which said, "I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of >>structural load tests ... In order to make absolutely certain noting is >>missed, an independent structural engineer will confirm the finding of >>these rigorous tests." >> >>In view of the recent accident near Barcelona, Spain, I would very much >>like to review whatever report or analysis was produced by the engineer >>who did these tests. Also, I wonder if you can tell me why negative G >>load stresses were not done in the 2007 series of tests. >> >>Also, there has been lots of speculation on the Matronics Zenith-List >>regarding the CH601XL accidents that have involved "elements of in-flight >>break up." I believe it would be a good public relations action by Zenith >>if you could make available a tabulation of information about these >>accidents showing: 1) Whether the aircrafts were kit-built, plan-built, >>quick-builds, or AMD-built; 2) Options included in the aircraft, e.g., >>wing lockers, etc.; 3) Known information about the in-flight breakup; 4) >>Hours on the airframe; 5) Conclusions of the FAA or NTSB regarding the >>accident; 5) Engines used on the aircraft; 6) Any other information that >>might indicate trends or patterns regarding the crash >> >> >>How can we make our web site more useful to you as a builder? >> >>Add an RSS function to your web site so that builders will be notified >>automatically whenever you update the site. Someone needs to collect this data so that the common threads, if any, can be identified. I would hope that ZAC has this data. I believe it would be good PR to make the data available and let the Zenith builders community pore over it. Terry Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:44 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. In our 701 in the left Rudder pedal (with my best english) we broked twice the outer wire from the pin... The pin did not came off in either two of the events (was hold by the remaining wire. The first time we just changed the pin (in the prefight) and that was it. The second time the wire of the pin broked (rubbing with the shoe, I think) we chosed to put a safety wire, it went inside the hole of the bolt and around the two strips and twisted in the back. Has worked perfectly (40 hrs to date since the change). I think the material of the safety wire will resisit the job in this particular bolts. Probably a photo is better, but until next sunday or monday. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S (about 150 hrs) Cant remember exactly. Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: I know the regs but in the case of the foot pedal cables you can snag the pin with your shoe or pants and work it loose and when it rotates the pin can fall out allowing the nut to back off. Van's has about the same set up for the rudder cables and after a few pins came out they advised NOT to us castle nuts in that situation. 43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject to rotation. Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. --------------------------------- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:18 AM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Thank you Terry, for getting my point accross better than I did. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Terry Phillips Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:35:15 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link At 07:34 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Bob wrote: This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different. 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built? 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? etc. There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft. It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. Bobefx 601XL QB 3300A N642Z reserved I very much agree with Bob on this. In fact, on March 15, during the discussion of the Barcelona accident, I used ZAC's website inquiry submittal form to send the following message to ZAC. To date, I have not received a response from ZAC. The July/August 2007 Zenair newsletter contained a "Memo from Chris," which said, "I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of structural load tests ... In order to make absolutely certain noting is missed, an independent structural engineer will confirm the finding of these rigorous tests." In view of the recent accident near Barcelona, Spain, I would very much like to review whatever report or analysis was produced by the engineer who did these tests. Also, I wonder if you can tell me why negative G load stresses were not done in the 2007 series of tests. Also, there has been lots of speculation on the Matronics Zenith-List regarding the CH601XL accidents that have involved "elements of in-flight break up." I believe it would be a good public relations action by Zenith if you could make available a tabulation of information about these accidents showing: 1) Whether the aircrafts were kit-built, plan-built, quick-builds, or AMD-built; 2) Options included in the aircraft, e.g., wing lockers, etc.; 3) Known information about the in-flight breakup; 4) Hours on the airframe; 5) Conclusions of the FAA or NTSB regarding the accident; 5) Engines used on the aircraft; 6) Any other information that might indicate trends or patterns regarding the crash How can we make our web site more useful to you as a builder? Add an RSS function to your web site so that builders will be notified automatically whenever you update the site. Someone needs to collect this data so that the common threads, if any, can be identified. I would hope that ZAC has this data. I believe it would be good PR to make the data available and let the Zenith builders community pore over it. Terry Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "swater6" So, has anyone called Zenith lately to talk to Nick or Sebastian? I'm thinking of just giving them a call and seeing what they have to say and if they can provide any additional information but would like to know if anyone has done so lately. Scott -------- 601 XL kit N596SW reserved Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178988#178988 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: "Gig Giacona" Good a licenced A&P. Would you OK a lock nut in the same position? frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote: > You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reason you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annually, the aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant rated mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated nut secured by safety wire. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178992#178992 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: SIX Figure Sum From: japhillipsga@aol.com Who's paying a "SIX figure sum" for a XL ? Write my PM and I'll put you in a great XL, faster and prettier than that AMD thing for only a Five figure sum!? Contact me first, and best regards, Bill of Georgia -----Original Message----- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 9:27 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008 On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 08:39:29PM -0700, Matt Ronics wrote: > For reasons some people such as yourself can't understand, some of us have > professional and/or personal reasons not plaster our name on the internet. As a minor celebrity, I've got as much reason as anyone to want to divorce myself from my words. My sense of integrity does not allow me to do so. > I'm not a troll and I don't work in the airplane business. Prove it. > I'm not trying to kid myself and others that the half-finished XL in my > garage is safe because--I don't have one. I'm not either, even though I've got more reason than a lot of folks to want to be sure - since I'm paying a six-figure sum to AMD for my Zodiac, above and beyond the common factor of it being my butt in the cockpit. I'll readily admit that I won't have the years of effort invested that most of the folks on here do, however. (I'm jealous of those who are building: they'll know their aircraft in a way I never will.) > A few months ago several Zenith builders said "let's wait for the > results." In the mean time, it APPEARS that we have lost another soul in > an accident that may have been preventable. True. OTOH, all we can do now is speculate, and that's not going to be any better at producing a fix if one is needed. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:44 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD Frank, The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft within its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head screwed on right. It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have to do something stupid to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on landing, etc. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Frank Roskind wrote: > Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the > fatal accidents on the link page provided > http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four > XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved > inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could > have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, > but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, > Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the > earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, > the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is > transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves > the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing > situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted > its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I > would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the > wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an > apparent stall/spin. > > As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent > stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange > TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. > There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which > may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws > caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ. > > Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to > stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "Gig Giacona" Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178993#178993 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I must say................... From: "GBzodiflyer" I must say that i agree with this idea as i have previously posted , and the situation gets worse , because as the rear attachment breaks away , the wing will rotate up and around the main spar , just a little movement up at the rear attachment , will drive the flap down via the flap pin , take a look at picture 019 closely at the attachment , this looks like a chunk missing , not a bolt tear out, and this is twice as thick as its tab on the fuselage , perhaps the dreaded fatigue is an issue here . I am going to be looking very closely at this area before next flight . regards to you all , and hope we can get it sorted soon for peace of mind. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178995#178995 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:04 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun N Fun Thank You Hi Jim, Thanks for putting the Angel-1 project together - I wish I could have stayed longer! But it was great to rivet a little again. You may have seen this - Dave Higdon and I both wrote blog entries for the Kiplanes news blog on the project: www.kitplanesmag.blogspot.com Also, Jim, the June issue of Kitplanes, just coming out, has the lowdown on the SportAir workshops I tried at Osh, and you're in there! Thanks again for your help. Best, Cory Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of planejim@bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:25 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Sun N Fun Thank You Fellow Zenith Builders, Do not archive Please allow me to thank all those who helped with the Zenith 701 known as Angel-1 in the basic Sheet Metal Workshop at Sun n fun recently. I would like to list all of you by name, but I'm afraid I'd miss someone. It was a great learning experience for all of us. We didn't get it finished, but we knew that going in. Our objective was to expose aviation enthusiests of all ages to actually working on a kit aircraft. In that we succeded. We will update you from time to time as the airplane progresses forward. Thanks again for your help. Jim Hoak - 601HD ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:20 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. Since this thread is still continuing, let me add one more suggestion. Ther e are self-locking castle nuts available from AS. They are number MS17825. I used them on my alieron cable connections at control pivot. George May 601XL 912s From: frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COMTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Zen ith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:07:58 -0400 You may hold a repairman's certificate after you build, but if for any reas on you are unavailable to perform the condition inspection required annuall y, the aircraft would have to be inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant ra ted mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated n ut secured by safety wire.> From: jmcburney@pobox.com> To: zenith-list@matr onics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> Date: Thu, 24 A > > If the problem with castellated nuts is cotter pi ns being worked loose (by> feet or something), I'd suggest using safety wir e instead of cotter pins in> the castellated nuts. Put it through the nut, twist it, run through the> clevis, twist, turn the twist back through the c levis. Try it, you may like> it.> > Blue skies and tailwinds> > Jim> CH-801 > DeltaHawk diesel> Augusta GA> 90% done, 90% left> >======= =================> > > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_realtime_042008 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:57 PM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. No> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts.> From: wr.giacona@suddenlin k.net> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:59:01 -0700> To: zenith-list@matronics.com .net>> > Good a licenced A&P. Would you OK a lock nut in the same position? > > > > frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote:> > You may hold a repairman's cert ificate after you build, but if for any reason you are unavailable to perfo rm the condition inspection required annually, the aircraft would have to b e inspected by an Airframe and Powerplant rated mechanic. I, for one, would not risk my certificate on a castellated nut secured by safety wire.> > > --------> W.R. "Gig" Giacona> 601XL Under Construction> See my pr ogress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178992#178992> > > > > > > ==> > > _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april 08 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:25 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: > AMD does not build from scratch or do they. AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:02 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage. Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had? **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:38 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Zenith-List: What every homebuilder needs ( slightly off-topic ) An old Popular Science article from 1938 detailing a "mobile airport". http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/04/23/this-automobile-is-a-complete-airport/?Qwd=./PopularScience/12-1938/auto_airports&Qif=auto_airports_0.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=XL#qdig DO NOT ARCHIVE -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:39 PM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD But I would bet that every pilot who crashed in a stall/spin thought he was proficient enough.> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:03:41 -0500> From: larry@mac smachine.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ne.com>> > Frank,> The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft within > its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head > screwed on right.> It's much harder to get into that stall spi n if you practice to stay > ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have > to do something stupid> to get the stall spin. E xample, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on > landing, etc.> > Larry McFar land 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com> do not archive> > Frank Roskind wrote:> > Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the > > fatal accidents on the link page provided > > http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/ nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four > > XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved > > inflight breakups. One of those, C anadian TX, was in IMC, so it could > > have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, > > but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, > > Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk Ci ty, FL. When I look at the > > earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, on e thing jumps out at me, > > the main landing gear. The stress going into t he main landing gear is > > transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves > > the equivalent of a negative load on the wing s par in most landing > > situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted > > its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on t he wing spar. I > > would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the > > wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, whic h was an > > apparent stall/spin.> > > > As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent > > stall/spins in the record, Farmington D E, Leominster MA, and Orange > > TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. > > There were also two engine out fatalities, on e HDS at Orange TX which > > may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws > > caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a m idair at Pohatcong, NJ.> > > > Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to > > stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.> -======================== ==> > > _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_realtime_042008 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:47 PM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City? From: Afterfxllc@aol.comDate: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:17:21 -0400Subject: Re: Z enith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos LinkTo: zenith-list@matronics.com The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build ex actly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we wou ld be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage. Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had? Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A OL Autos. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale =en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:40 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question Jeff-- If I understand your question correctly, the answer is no. I spoke with t he Lowrance folks at Sn-n-Fun about a similar issue of having the detail of the mapcreate loaded with the Terrain Awareness info and was told it is no t supported. With the mapcreate you can zoom in to 5 and 10 miles with grea t detail, however, with both databases on the same chip, zooming in on the terrain awareness will get very grainy at 15miles. George May 601XL 912s> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:29:32 -0400> Subject: Zenith-List: Lowrance 2000C GPS Question> From: beachyjeff@ @juno.com>> > For those of you who have mastered the Lowrance 2000C GPS, I have a> question. Is it possible to combine a Mapcreate map with the Av map > pre-loaded onto the 2000C card? I can make detailed maps with the> Mapcre ate program, but I cannot get the GPS to show the Av map in> conjunction wi th the higher detail afforded by a Mapcreate map. Has> anyone succeeded in ========================> _ ===============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april 08 ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "swater6" This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on. I counted about 240 registered XL's in the US. 4 structural failures equals 1.7%. That seems quite high to me. I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities. Planes just don't break up at that rate. Flight design sold 232 aircraft in 2007 with many more already flying. What would everyone think of them if they had 4 structural failures in the last two years? Go ahead and look at the fatality stats for the other top LSA or even homebuilts. Nowhere close to 1.7% structural failure rate or even fatality rate. I was not part of the panic crowd earlier as I tried to explain away the other issues but standing back and looking at 4 structural failures out of 240 in the US, something isn't right here.(regardless of wheather we know why) I fully understand the risk of flying and building, but not when the deck is stacked against me from the beginning. If there are 120 of you reading this and building now, 2 of you will die from a structural failure at 1.7%. Think that's a low number now? What about the 120 people in your EAA chapter. Expect that 2 of them will have structural failures? I know we don't want to hear this but there is a problem of some sort and I'm not sure what to do now with my 80% complete airframe and brand new engine. I don't want to invest more time and money into a flawed machine. I wouldn't fly my 172 if 1.7% of them were failing structurally. If anyone wants a plane or jab 3300 let me know, I think I'm done.... > The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage. > [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad] -------- 601 XL kit N596SW reserved Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179014#179014 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lsa_2007_908.jpg ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:40 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while turning it and see how fast your tool blows up. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Frank Roskind Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:38:35 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City? From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage. Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had? Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:40 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while turning it and see how fast your tool blows up. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Frank Roskind Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:38:35 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link Which '06 CA crash? Oakdale or Yuba City? From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage. Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had? Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:31 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: > AMD does not build from scratch or do they. AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link From: "Gig Giacona" Scott, You went from calling the factory to see if there was more info to selling off your plane and engine in a little over an hour. Slow down, man. Take a break from building if you need to. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179017#179017 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:05 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. From: "Gig Giacona" I didn't know they made those. That sounds like the best solution. Thanks George. gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Since this thread is still continuing, let me add one more suggestion. There are self-locking castle nuts available from AS. They are number MS17825. I used them on my alieron cable connections at control pivot. > > George May > 601XL 912s > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179018#179018 ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:04 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: Empty weight I have not calculated my empty weight on my XL yet but would like to ask you finished builders what can I expect... I have a Jabiru 3300A, painted airframe, wheel pants and basic steam gauges.... If my numbers allow, I ll be calling BRS. They want $4K for the 601 XL system but geeze, I just spent $240 per night in Las Vegas. Twenty nights stay , My life is worth lots more than those.... Steve W. ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:21 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely. In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily. The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large section of center spar attached to the wing. I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are. Jim ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:21 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Bob, Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. Jay in Dallas Bob Sturgis wrote: >I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. >Bobefx > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Jay Maynard >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts > > >On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: >> AMD does not build from scratch or do they. > >AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) >AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) > ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:07 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts I stayed the whole day at the factory in Mexico, Missouri and watched them make may of the components of the kit right there. The CNC machine was making nose ribs and they had different stations all over the factory. I also watched the fuel tanks being welded. The main spar was not made there and was done by someone else, but most of the kit is made on sight. Larry Husky N667H (Reserved) 601XL/O-200 In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:41:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobefx@yahoo.com writes: I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts (mailto:jmaynard@conmicro.com) > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: > AMD does not build from scratch or do they. AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC _http://www.conmicro.com_ (http://www.conmicro.com/) _http://jmaynard.livejournal.com_ (http://jmaynard.livejournal.com/) (http://www.tronguy.net/) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:04 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. also, cotterpins becoming undone if installed correctly can usually be managed by reversing the direction of insertion of the bolt to result in the nut/cotterpin on the side away from the dragging interface. not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut. CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut. such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Aerolitellc@aol.com >Sent: Apr 23, 2008 4:09 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Castellated Nuts. > > >I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that >attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else. There >were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with their shoes >catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle nuts and >replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the same >problem with the 601. > >The plans indicate using locknuts on the control cables attack points but >my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts with cotter pins. > > >**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car >listings at AOL Autos. >(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:16 PM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Hi Jay, I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced. Mine was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC) John Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > Bob, > > Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. > > Jay in Dallas > > > Bob Sturgis wrote: > > >> I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. >> Bobefx >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Jay Maynard >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: >> >>> AMD does not build from scratch or do they. >>> >> AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. >> -- >> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) >> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:58 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Empty weight With the XL and the BRS it isn't so much the weight that gets you as the W&B. Play with the W&B spreadsheet at the link below and you will see what I mean. I believe the numbers in the spreadsheet come from Gary Ray's Corvair-powered XL so it may be heavier and have a more forward CG than a Jabiru-powered XL. Also it includes 25 pounds of "caudal" (tail) ballast in cell C8 that you could remove. But you can still see the effects of sticking 25-30 pounds in the middle of the luggage deck. If you could place the canister at the CG it would be a different story. I believe that CZAW placed the canister between the firewall and panel when they placed a chute in an XL (Evektor does the same thing) but I don't know how it squeezed past the canopy. I have yet to see photos of an installation that uses the new triangular upper motor mounts. http://www.ch601.org/resources/W &B/ZodiacXLWBFinal.xls Also a search the archives for "WB-601XL.xls" should locate a message from "David X" and a link to his XL/Rotax W&B spreadsheet: http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=1876&sid=0c429a4e9894d63fb897b80 fe91763bd See Scott Laughlin's site for detailed photos of installing a BRS in an XL. But Scott has never published his W&B numbers: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BRS.html -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Empty weight I have not calculated my empty weight on my XL yet but would like to ask you finished builders what can I expect... I have a Jabiru 3300A, painted airframe, wheel pants and basic steam gauges.... If my numbers allow, I ll be calling BRS. They want $4K for the 601 XL system but geeze, I just spent $240 per night in Las Vegas. Twenty nights stay , My life is worth lots more than those.... Steve W. ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:03 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Who made the parts I believe it is mentioned in the archives somewhere that the spars are all made by Zenith in Canada. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Bob, Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. Jay in Dallas Bob Sturgis wrote: >I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. >Bobefx > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Jay Maynard >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts > > >On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: >> AMD does not build from scratch or do they. > >AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) >AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) > ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:11 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Who made the parts For the QBKs I believe the parts are made in North America just like the kit parts and then shipped to AeroLeaver in Bogot=E1. You can see photos of the jigging and assembly process at AeroLeaver on Zenith=92s web site here: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html Zenith has never made a secret of this. A caption on this page says =93Fuselage construction jig at the AeroLeaver factory=94: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk-photos1.html -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Davis Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Hi Jay, I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced. Mine was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC) John Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bob, Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. Jay in Dallas Bob Sturgis wrote: I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: AMD does not build from scratch or do they. AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:40 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link correctly stated Frank - but as you stated, "often". Flutter always results from some instability that goes divergent - and speed simply increases the motive forces in a drastically non-linear way. Everyone talks about the light or touchy control feel in the XL. I mentioned it before but no-one but Sabrina even acknowledged it: what about anti-servo tabs to increase the control feel and centering? IF it is a flutter issue or something similar, then there is a basic instability under dynamic loads that needs to be taken care of; anti-servo systems simply increase the difficulty a pilot would have in exciting the initial event????? Frank Roskind wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes. For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look. > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500 > From: jmaynard@conmicro.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote: > > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets > > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at > > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment > > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron > > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact. > > Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable), > how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel? > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) >======================= > > > --------------------------------- Back to work after baby how do you know when youre ready? Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:40 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Jay, Not passing as truth. Asking what I can't find out from Zenith. As posted on this site, a factory in Columbia seems to be the main manufacture at this time. Call and ask Roger who manufactures the kits and see what you get. I hope they find an answer and I can feel good about building what I feel is a fun, first in class, good all-around aircraft. Zenith just be up front and answer questions with honesty. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: "Jaybannist@cs.com" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:26:05 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Bob, Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. Jay in Dallas Bob Sturgis wrote: >I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. >Bobefx > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Jay Maynard >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts > > >On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: >> AMD does not build from scratch or do they. > >AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) >AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) > ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:56 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts Who puts together the QB kits? ----- Original Message ---- From: "LHusky@aol.com" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:35:00 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts I stayed the whole day at the factory in Mexico, Missouri and watched them make may of the components of the kit right there. The CNC machine was making nose ribs and they had different stations all over the factory. I also watched the fuel tanks being welded. The main spar was not made there and was done by someone else, but most of the kit is made on sight. Larry Husky N667H (Reserved) 601XL/O-200 In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:41:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobefx@yahoo.com writes: I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. Bobefx ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Who made the parts On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote: > AMD does not build from scratch or do they. AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Empty weight From: "Sabrina" N5886Q's empty weight is 860 which includes 4 gallons unusable fuel. With full fuel, it can carry 340 pounds (My mom, dad, headsets and maps, no luggage.) N42845's sheet shows it can carry 339 pounds with full fuel. It is amazing that AMD reaches 770 or the Rotax listed comes in at 734. My aircraft weighed in in the high 7s with 3 bathroom scales, but 10% more with scales calibrated for the range of weights actually applied to them. (200-40