---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/28/08: 64 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:14 AM - Flap setting - equal angle for both flaps. (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 04:12 AM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (kmccune) 3. 05:06 AM - Re: Don't Give Up the CH601XL dREAM (ashontz) 4. 06:12 AM - Monday Evening Chat Room (George Race) 5. 06:16 AM - Re: Flap setting - equal angle for both flaps. (steve) 6. 06:58 AM - Sun-N-Fun (ZodieRocket) 7. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: As far as Yuba City, I'm almost willing to say case closed. (William Dominguez) 8. 07:55 AM - Re: FUEL SYSTEM QUESTION (MacDonald Doug) 9. 10:06 AM - Re: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. (ALAN BEYER) 10. 10:09 AM - Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (lgingell) 11. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (steve) 12. 11:48 AM - rear wing spars (Lee Steensland) 13. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Flap Stop (Jaybannist@cs.com) 14. 11:52 AM - Drill guides for reamers (John Reinking) 15. 12:16 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (DICK WILBERS) 16. 12:21 PM - Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (Tim Juhl) 17. 12:30 PM - Re: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. (john H) 18. 12:50 PM - Re: rear wing spars (Juan Vega) 19. 12:53 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (Juan Vega) 20. 01:08 PM - Re: rear wing spars (Debo Cox) 21. 01:10 PM - Re: canopy latch cable () 22. 01:12 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (Dennis Shoup) 23. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (steve) 24. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (Terry Phillips) 25. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (steve) 26. 02:15 PM - Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (ashontz) 27. 02:53 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (Juan Vega) 28. 03:09 PM - Re: AS5 Part Number? (Stainless Steel A5 Rivets) (PatrickW) 29. 03:34 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (browntool@aol.com) 30. 03:34 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (george may) 31. 03:39 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (steve) 32. 04:29 PM - Re: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. (Paul Mulwitz) 33. 04:32 PM - Re: Flying Music (Paul Mulwitz) 34. 04:34 PM - Re: rear wing spars (leinad) 35. 04:44 PM - Re: Registration questions E-LSA (dstasch) 36. 04:57 PM - Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (leinad) 37. 05:03 PM - Re: Flying Music (Larry Hursh) 38. 05:12 PM - Re: extended wing tips (JG) 39. 05:20 PM - Re: extended wing tips (JG) 40. 05:36 PM - Re: Flying Music (Bob Sturgis) 41. 05:41 PM - Re: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE (Lawrence Webber) 42. 05:50 PM - Re: Flying Music (Dan) 43. 05:51 PM - Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (Tim Juhl) 44. 05:55 PM - Re: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE (Juan Vega) 45. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft (Juan Vega) 46. 05:59 PM - Re: extended wing tips (kmccune) 47. 06:07 PM - New Letter from Chris (Tim Juhl) 48. 06:08 PM - Re: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE (Bryan Martin) 49. 06:16 PM - Re: Flying Music (Southern Reflections) 50. 06:18 PM - Re: Prop for 601 XL (Tim Juhl) 51. 06:21 PM - XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 (Tim Juhl) 52. 06:21 PM - XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 (Tim Juhl) 53. 06:41 PM - Re: XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 (PatrickW) 54. 07:18 PM - Re: Flying Music (Graeme) 55. 07:45 PM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Andrewlieser) 56. 07:47 PM - Re: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE (Juan Vega) 57. 07:56 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (Ron Lendon) 58. 08:03 PM - Ignition cables? (Grant Corriveau) 59. 08:10 PM - Re: rear wing spars (Ron Lendon) 60. 08:21 PM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Ron Lendon) 61. 08:21 PM - Re: rear wing spars (Christian Tremblay) 62. 08:33 PM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Andrewlieser) 63. 08:54 PM - Re: Prop for 601 XL (GLJSOJ1) 64. 08:55 PM - Re: extended wing tips (GLJSOJ1) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:38 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Flap setting - equal angle for both flaps. Hi Steve, I have not yet mounted my wings, but I have thought of the problem of getting the flaps at the same level. The answer I found is to wait to drill the torque tubes and control arm weldment until the flaps and wings are mounted. Then when you drill the parts to fix the relative setting for each flap you can tape or otherwise hold the flaps in place so they come out the same. Paul XL fuselage At 11:08 AM 4/27/2008, you wrote: >I know this builder who has checked his flap settings and one flap >is not quite the same as the other...it doesnt raise as high as the >other.. Its off by about 2 degrees..... >"If" I were to talk to him about adjusting them to have each exactly >the same, what would I say ?? > >Steve ( name withheld by REQUEST ) > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Registration questions E-LSA From: "kmccune" Pretty cool Dad 8) This topic comes up quite a bit, how do we get the EAA to put up better info for first time builder? They have some info, but it is almost as confusing as the FAAs and not very complete. I read the EAAs info forwards and backwards but could not decide what I was building and what I could and couldn't do in it. Finally I emailed the EAA and asked here, took both to get it clear. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179767#179767 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Don't Give Up the CH601XL dREAM From: "ashontz" Thanks for your inspiration. When I logged in yesterday and read some mention of someone feeling the need to hire a lawyer about some engineering analysis I immediately felt this inquiry is going to far. If it has to involve a lawyer, I'm out and don't support an inquiry. If it can be done without a lawyer or some report to the NTSB, then I'm still interested. I don't want this thing getting out of hand, I'm only interested in getting more information to make my own decisions, and I'm still on the mindset that I will complete the XL, in fact, I just want to feel more comfortable with more knowledge so I can enjoy moving forward. THE LAST THING I WANT TO SEE IS SOME BLOODSCUKER LAWYER OR AGENCY GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS. IF THAT'S THE CASE, I WITHDRAW MY SUPPORT OF AN INQUIRY. Yes, more pictures of Yuba City would be greatly appreciated. Particularly of those rear spar attachments, both at the spar and where they connect to the fuselage. It appears as though it was a bolt missing from what I could see from the last batch of photos. Either way, I feel really bad for your parents, but it's particularly upsetting to see that it could have been prevented with more careful maintenance. PLAV8R wrote: > From my post in another subject: > Juan, > > Yes, lets get on with it. I am very sorry if someone took my postings as being negative to Zenith or any of the fine members of this forum. I again say, don't stop building, purchasing, or flying the Zodiac 601 XL. It is a dream aircraft as you all know. I have the up-most respect for Chis Heinz and Zodiac. It is obvious to me that these are men of integrity and are very committed to their design, product, customers, and reputation. I would also feel that with the information provided, builders may pay more attention to any changes or recommendations based on the information that is available to them. Pilots should practice due diligence prior to flight. Take a little extra time checking for any "smoking" rivets in the undercarriage, inspecting the wing attachment fittings ( if possible), aileron hinges etc. It would take less time then this posting. > I am also sure that they (Zenith), along with the NTSB, are doing a thorough investigation of these incidents. They may have seen many of these posts. I do have faith in the NTSB and anyone associated with this aircraft. I have been waiting one and a half years to hear some kind of conclusion to this accident. The NTSB could very well be taxed of limited resources for investigations. > The NTSB could look at this forum and say "been there, seen that". However, with what I have seen, there are many very conscientious members with an intimate knowledge of the design and components and have come up with some very sound theories based on a very limited amount of information (videos and a few pictures). There are more eyes on this now. Someone may see something that others have not seen (thinking outside the box). > I would consider the "armchair quarterbacks" as someone that has not participated in the game. The game is still in play. There is no definite outcome yet. But these fine people may very well have participated and/or have aided in the resolution to problem that plagued us all. > Please don't stop building your dreams. This will all get figured out and we can all feel at ease. > > I am still waiting to hear if I can get access to the "Yuba City" aircraft and procure better pictures, etc. > Regards, Don -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179779#179779 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:38 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Monday Evening Chat Room Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern Time. http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George CH-701 N73EX (Reserved) Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:29 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap setting - equal angle for both flaps. Right on Paul. I just brought this up because my holes were drilled at the factory. QBK you know..... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Flap setting - equal angle for both flaps. Hi Steve, I have not yet mounted my wings, but I have thought of the problem of getting the flaps at the same level. The answer I found is to wait to drill the torque tubes and control arm weldment until the flaps and wings are mounted. Then when you drill the parts to fix the relative setting for each flap you can tape or otherwise hold the flaps in place so they come out the same. Paul XL fuselage At 11:08 AM 4/27/2008, you wrote: I know this builder who has checked his flap settings and one flap is not quite the same as the other...it doesnt raise as high as the other.. Its off by about 2 degrees..... "If" I were to talk to him about adjusting them to have each exactly the same, what would I say ?? Steve ( name withheld by REQUEST ) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:22 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun Hello Listers, I have been waiting for some pictures for the Sun-N-Fun BBQ. Unfortunately, they have not been sent to me yet. If anyone has any pictures of the event please send them to me at HYPERLINK "mailto:cdngoose@hsfx.ca"cdngoose@hsfx.ca Thanks. This years Sun-N-Fun BBQ was another fine success, but it was also quite a challenge. I wish to THANK everyone who pitched in to help during the event, with the volunteers present everyone was fed well and had a good time talking to other builders. As soon as I have a few pictures I will post a link to the event. Along with a complete write up on the event. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com Checked by AVG. 4/24/2008 7:24 AM Checked by AVG. 4/27/2008 9:39 AM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:23 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: As far as Yuba City, I'm almost willing to say case closed. Thanks Alberto, Yes, I received Alberto's email with the preliminary report regarding the accident in Barcelona. I'm currently on vacation and I'm not checking my emails as regularly as I tipically do but looking forward to do a thorough translation during this week. In the meantime I can advance you that the report include the accounts of 2 separate witnesses. One saw the plane comming down with a folded wing, the other saw the moment when the wing folded up, breaking the canopy (the investigators found pieces of plexiglass over a 300 meters radio). William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Iberplanes IGL wrote: no, it was flying ok, Then a witness saw the plane folding both wings, another one heard a noise and when it looked up saw the plane like the other witness.. Ive asked Gary and William to translate something in English. Please, wait until I get that done. I will publish photos as soon as I get the photo release. Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashontz" Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:44 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: As far as Yuba City, I'm almost willing to say case closed. > > "Matched case" meaning what, that it appears as though there was no bolt > in the rear spar? > > > Iberplanes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I have seen the pictures of the spanish incident, and a partial report. >> Seems to be a match-case with this one. I also asked Gary and William to >> translate some parts into English. >> >> Regarding the photos, still waiting authorization to publish on the site. >> Sorry on this. >> >> talk to you soon, >> >> Alberto Martin >> Iberplanes IGL >> http://www.iberplanes.es >> Igualada - Barcelona - EspaS >> --- > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179544#179544 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:10 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: FUEL SYSTEM QUESTION How about an old style Wobble Pump like what was used on aerobatic aircraft? It's a small hand pump that would likely only need a couple of strokes every thirty seconds or so to keep the float bowls full. It's a non-electric alternative. This eliminates the added complexity of an essential buss. I think they are available for Aircraft Spruce but don't have a specific link for them. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scatch Builder NW Ontario, Canada (Also have AcrosportII plans) Do Not Archive > george may wrote: > > I'd insure one pump is feed directly from your > battery(fused > > appropriately), while the other can run off of > your electrical > > distribution buss. Typically loosing electrics > implies loss of > > alternator. The battery will usually last about > 1/2 hour with > > essentials. That should be enough to get you safey > on the ground using > > the pump directly feeding off the battery. > > > > George May > > 601XL 912s Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:48 AM PST US From: ALAN BEYER Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. Hi John, What do feel are the trade-offs of the HDS vs the HD? Al Do not archive ----- Original Message ---- From: john H Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. I have been flying a 601HD for 3 years with 300hrs now. It is not smooth in turbulent air. In fact I get bounced around pretty good in turbulent air. Probably due to the fact that is is a high lift wing and a light airplane. Now the HDS wing is probably smoother but it has its trade offs too. Overall, the 601HD is a solid airplane and fun to fly... John Do not archive > I actually like the olders designs better, the 601 HD is my favorite. Those > thick, thick wings skip through turbulant air with ======================= > > > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft From: "lgingell" My 6-S-3 from 12/03 has no nylon flap stops on it. Someone care to post a scan? ..lance -------- Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179850#179850 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:07 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft I didnt think mine did either til I looked again. It shows a 90 by 25 mm 1/8 nylon piece (2) that goes under the flange of the drag spar . I removed the three rivets from point of rib 7 outwards.... Whalla! I have a stop.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "lgingell" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft > > My 6-S-3 from 12/03 has no nylon flap stops on it. Someone care to post a > scan? > > ..lance > > -------- > Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 > http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179850#179850 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:33 AM PST US From: Lee Steensland Subject: Zenith-List: rear wing spars Looking ahead a little, I was wondering how scratch builders are bending their rear wing spars? Most of the D-I-Y brakes I've seen are all 8' and the spar is a full 12'. Are people extending their brakes to bend a full 12' or are they farming out those few bends. -- Lee Steensland 601XL/Corvair (7637L reserved) Kit/Scratch builder 0.01% complete! ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:30 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Flap Stop Lance, Here 'tis. Jay in Dallas "lgingell" wrote: > >My 6-S-3 from 12/03 has no nylon flap stops on it. Someone care to post a scan? > >..lance > >-------- >Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 >http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179850#179850 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:22 AM PST US From: John Reinking Subject: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole would be next to impossible. The Boeing Surplus Store over here at Kent, WA (just recently closed by Boeing) used to have literally thousands of these guides available for very modest cost. Unfortunately at that time I wasn't thinking about guides for reamers. Thank you, John Reinking ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:19 PM PST US From: "DICK WILBERS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers John: Google drill and reamer bushings. You will get zillions of repl;ies. Actually, you need the bushing for the drill more than a reamer. Reamers have multiple flutes with each flute having a 45 degree chamfer on it's corners and will pretty well self center. Reamers will follow the drilled hole so the location, axial and radial runout will tell the reamer where to go. There is a tool made by Dixie Carbide that is (or was) called a bore/reamer. this tool follows the spindle accuracy and bushing accuracy rather than the drilled holke accuracy. Good luck....................................................Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Reinking" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers > > Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when reaming a > hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that without some kind of > guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole would be next to impossible. > > The Boeing Surplus Store over here at Kent, WA (just recently closed by > Boeing) used to have literally thousands of these guides available for > very modest cost. Unfortunately at that time I wasn't thinking about > guides for reamers. > > Thank you, John Reinking > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft From: "Tim Juhl" Flap Stop comment - The nylon stop does a good job of preventing movement of the retracted flap at the outboard end, while the inboard end is restrained by the actuating pin which rests in a slot. I am considering installing a second stop at the inboard end to make it even more solid. Comments? Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179879#179879 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:39 PM PST US From: john H Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. Hi Al I would say the biggest trade off would be climb performance. The HD wing a lso probably has a little more glide to it. One other thing would be horsep ower. With the HD the 80hp 912 works really well but in the summer at highe r density altitudes, performance with 80hp and HDS wings would be a little anemic. I have not flown an HDS so these comments are coming from other HDS fliers who I have talked to when I was considering changing my HD to an HD S. Most agreed that the HDS is better with at least 100hp. John From: agbeyer@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. Hi John, What do feel are the trade-offs of the HDS vs the HD? Al Do not archive ----- Original Message ---- From: john H Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. I have been flying a 601HD for 3 years with 300hrs now. It is not smooth in turbulent air. In fact I get bounced around pretty good in turbulent air. Probably due to the fact that is is a high lift wing and a light airplane. Now the HDS wing is probably smoother but it has its trade offs too. Overal l, the 601HD is a solid airplane and fun to fly... John Do not archive > I actually like the olders designs better, the 601 HD is my favorite. Tho se > thick, thick wings skip through turbulant air with ======= ================ > > > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. _________________________________________________________________ Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause. MSN_Make_IM_Yours ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:19 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: rear wing spars there are instructions on how to connect two pieces to make one rear wing spar. You can get them from Seb or Roger Heintz. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Lee Steensland >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 2:45 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: rear wing spars > > >Looking ahead a little, I was wondering how scratch builders are bending >their rear wing spars? Most of the D-I-Y brakes I've seen are all 8' >and the spar is a full 12'. > >Are people extending their brakes to bend a full 12' or are they farming >out those few bends. > > >-- >Lee Steensland >601XL/Corvair (7637L reserved) Kit/Scratch builder 0.01% complete! > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:31 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with pictures and the log book, Have the DAR register you both as builders of the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: dstasch >Sent: Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA > > >Hello, > >I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused about a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better understand. > >Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach him how to fly. > >If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be registered as S-LSA. However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't remember the acronym) Am I correct on this? It's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to build an S-LSA in our garage? > >What about E-LSA. I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be used to train the owner. If this is true, perhaps we could be co-owners or I could just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don't think a zero hour 16 year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound very good to an insurance agent. Do any of you have a similar situation with perhaps training your spouse or children to fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me? > >Thank you! > >Take care, >Dave > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179732#179732 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:47 PM PST US From: Debo Cox Subject: Re: Zenith-List: rear wing spars Hey Lee, I can't speak for everyone, but I made the rear spar splice that's been approved by Chris Heintz. This allows you to bend the rear spar in two 6-foot sections. In my mind, it's actually an improvement because it provides a doubler at a place where you've cut a big hole in the rear spar for the aileron control rod. You can the get hand-drawn version on Mark Townsend's 601 site: http://www.ch601.org/resources/rear%20spar/601xl_rear_spar_splice.htm or another builder, Randy Bryant drew it up a little more legibly at: http://www.n344rb.com/plans/RearChannelSplice.pdf You can visit my Kitlog site to see it built. There are more pics than this one - this is just the first one I could find: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=debo&project=132&category=1384&log=32988&row=94 Hope this helps. Debo Cox Nags Head, NC www.mykitlog.com/debo Making fuselage parts ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:17 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable Try the nearest Ace Hardware store. They carry cables from 1/16th up t o 1/4th, and you can cut off any length you need. They are not stainle ss, but, not being exposed to the elements, they'll last probably long er than you and I will.=0A=0A=0APaul Rodriguez=0A ----- O riginal Message ----- =0A From: Bryan Martin =0A To: zenith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:33 PM=0A Subj ect: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable=0A=0A=0A --> Zenith -List message posted by: Bryan Martin >=0A=0A The same type cable is used f or brake and shift cables on bicycles. =0A Check your local bicyc le shop to see if they have some you can cut to =0A length.=0A @hughes.net>=0A >=0A > I'm working o n my canopy frame and I need to purchase the canopy =0A > latch c able. Is this a throttle cable? If so, does someone either =0A > have a part number or some specs. I've looked at some throttle =0A > cables on Summit Racing catalog, but not sure what the best len gth =0A > would be.=0A > Dan Dempsey=0A > Plans building 601XL.=0A >=0A=0A=0A -- =0A Bryan Martin=0A N61B M, CH 601 XL,=0A RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.=0A do not archiv ======================= ======================= onics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA No passengers are permitted during the 40 hour test period, even if they are registered as a builder. Solo only. Dennis On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Juan Vega wrote: > > If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with > pictures and the log book, Have the DAR register you both as builders of > the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- > >From: dstasch > >Sent: Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA > > > > > >Hello, > > > >I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused about > a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better understand. > > > >Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach > him how to fly. > > > >If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be > registered as S-LSA. However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be > factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't remember the acronym) > Am I correct on this? It's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to > build an S-LSA in our garage? > > > >What about E-LSA. I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be used to > train the owner. If this is true, perhaps we could be co-owners or I could > just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don't think a zero hour 16 > year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound very good to an insurance agent. > Do any of you have a similar situation with perhaps training your spouse or > children to fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me? > > > >Thank you! > > > >Take care, > >Dave > > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179732#179732 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:38 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft Sounds like an excellent idea Tim... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Juhl" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft > > Flap Stop comment - The nylon stop does a good job of preventing movement > of the retracted flap at the outboard end, while the inboard end is > restrained by the actuating pin which rests in a slot. I am considering > installing a second stop at the inboard end to make it even more solid. > > Comments? > > Tim > > Do not archive > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179879#179879 > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:37 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft Steve Along the same lines of general enlightenment, a while back you mentioned "drag spar" in one of your posts. I assume from the context that the drag spar is the rear spar. Is that correct? Thanks. Terry At 09:02 AM 4/27/2008 -0700, you wrote: >OMG ! > >I love this website !!! > >SW Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:04 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft Yes em. Wings have "usually" two spars per side. The main spar and the drag spar.... "Some" designs these days have a humongous main spars and dont have a drag spar. These terms are from the 1940s til ???... Whatever they call them now is "what it is", my man... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Phillips" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft > > Steve > > Along the same lines of general enlightenment, a while back you mentioned > "drag spar" in one of your posts. I assume from the context that the drag > spar is the rear spar. Is that correct? Thanks. > > Terry > > > At 09:02 AM 4/27/2008 -0700, you wrote: >>OMG ! >> >>I love this website !!! >> >>SW > > > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons > are done; working on the wings > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft From: "ashontz" This is probably one of the more informative threads I've read on here in awhile. Thanks. Possible problems make more sense now. More than likely, the only problem is bad maintenance or construction. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179905#179905 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:10 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA I disagree, if you have two builders, and they are documented as both builders of the plane, you can both fly at the same time. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Shoup >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 4:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA > >No passengers are permitted during the 40 hour test period, even if they are >registered as a builder. Solo only. > >Dennis > >On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Juan Vega >wrote: > >> >> If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with >> pictures and the log book, Have the DAR register you both as builders of >> the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: dstasch >> >Sent: Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM >> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA >> > >> > >> >Hello, >> > >> >I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused about >> a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better understand. >> > >> >Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach >> him how to fly. >> > >> >If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be >> registered as S-LSA. However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be >> factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't remember the acronym) >> Am I correct on this? It's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to >> build an S-LSA in our garage? >> > >> >What about E-LSA. I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be used to >> train the owner. If this is true, perhaps we could be co-owners or I could >> just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don't think a zero hour 16 >> year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound very good to an insurance agent. >> Do any of you have a similar situation with perhaps training your spouse or >> children to fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me? >> > >> >Thank you! >> > >> >Take care, >> >Dave >> > >> >DO NOT ARCHIVE >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Read this topic online here: >> > >> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179732#179732 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: AS5 Part Number? (Stainless Steel A5 Rivets) From: "PatrickW" Issue 163, page 9 of the Zenith Newsletter makes reference to Stainless Avinox II rivets on a CH801. Here is a link: http://rapidrivet.thomasnet.com/viewitems/blind-rivets-textron-rivets/avinox-ii-fastening-system?&plpver=10&forward=1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179917#179917 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers From: browntool@aol.com John, I am not exactly sure of your application, but we stock and sell a wide variety of drill guides, drill bushings, and bushing holders designed to aid in keeping drilled holes straight.? You can see some of our bushing tools at the following link: http://browntool.com/category.asp?ParentCode=K23&HeaderURL=&FooterURL=&CategoryTitle=MISC%2E+TOOLS+%234+%28Bushings%2C+Carbide+Burrs%2C+Boelube%2C+Hole+Saws+%26More%29 and also: http://browntool.com/category.asp?ParentCode=K368&HeaderURL=&FooterURL=&CategoryTitle=SPECIALS+%26+MORE+NEW+PRODUCTS Also, our new catalog is out and free for the asking, simply visit our website at www.browntool.com and click on the "mailing list signup" link at the bottom of the page and we will get a copy out to you immediately free of charge. Feel free to contact me directly with any questions at michael@browntool.com Best regards, Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. 2536 S.E. 15th Street Oklahoma City, OK 73129 405-688-6888 800-587-3883 -----Original Message----- From: John Reinking Sent: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 1:49 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers ? Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole would be next to impossible.? ? The Boeing Surplus Store over here at Kent, WA (just recently closed by Boeing) used to have literally thousands of these guides available for very modest cost. Unfortunately at that time I wasn't thinking about guides for reamers.? ? Thank you, John Reinking? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:29 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA The piloting of an experimental during the test phase is not based on who b uilds the plane. The regs indicate that only required crew may fly during t he 40 hours of test. If it is deemed that both builders are the required c rew they might be able to fly together, however, I doubt it. To be able to have both parties legally fly together as required crew it would need to b e signed off by the local FSDO . George May 601XL 912s> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:50:14 -0400> From: amyvega2005@earthl ink.net> To: zenith-list@matronics.com; zenith-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA> > --> Zenith-List message p osted by: Juan Vega > > I disagree, if you have two builders, and they are documented as both builders of the plane, you ca n both fly at the same time.> Juan> > -----Original Message-----> >From: De nnis Shoup > >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 4:08 PM> >To: zenit h-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-L SA> >> >No passengers are permitted during the 40 hour test period, even if they are> >registered as a builder. Solo only.> >> >Dennis> >> >On Mon, Ap r 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Juan Vega > >wrote:> >> > >>> >> If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with > >> pictures and the log book, Have the DAR register you both as builders of> >> the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together.> >>> >> Juan> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> >From: dstasch > >> >Sent: Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM> >> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com> >> >Sub ject: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA> >> >> >> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dstasch" > >> >> >> >Hello,> >> >> > > >I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused abou t> >> a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better unde rstand.> >> >> >> >Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach> >> him how to fly.> >> >> >> >If I understand correctly, t o use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be> >> registered as S-LSA. Howeve r, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be> >> factory built. (or meet guid elines of the ASTM? can't remember the acronym)> >> Am I correct on this? I t's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to> >> build an S-LSA in our ga rage?> >> >> >> >What about E-LSA. I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA c an be used to> >> train the owner. If this is true, perhaps we could be co- owners or I could> >> just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don 't think a zero hour 16> >> year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound ver y good to an insurance agent.> >> Do any of you have a similar situation wi th perhaps training your spouse or> >> children to fly in an LSA that you c an share your experience with me?> >> >> >> >Thank you!> >> >> >> >Take car e,> >> >Dave> >> >> >> >DO NOT ARCHIVE> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Read th is topic online here:> >> >> >> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php? p=179732#179732> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ===========> > > _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april 08 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:54 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA I disagree to disagree. SOLO Only... Unless the "crew member" is essential for the flight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA > > I disagree, if you have two builders, and they are documented as both > builders of the plane, you can both fly at the same time. > Juan > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Dennis Shoup >>Sent: Apr 28, 2008 4:08 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA >> >>No passengers are permitted during the 40 hour test period, even if they >>are >>registered as a builder. Solo only. >> >>Dennis >> >>On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Juan Vega >>wrote: >> >>> >>> If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with >>> pictures and the log book, Have the DAR register you both as builders >>> of >>> the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together. >>> >>> Juan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >From: dstasch >>> >Sent: Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM >>> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>> >Subject: Zenith-List: Registration questions E-LSA >>> > >>> > >>> >Hello, >>> > >>> >I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused >>> >about >>> a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better >>> understand. >>> > >>> >Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach >>> him how to fly. >>> > >>> >If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be >>> registered as S-LSA. However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be >>> factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't remember the >>> acronym) >>> Am I correct on this? It's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to >>> build an S-LSA in our garage? >>> > >>> >What about E-LSA. I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be used >>> >to >>> train the owner. If this is true, perhaps we could be co-owners or I >>> could >>> just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don't think a zero >>> hour 16 >>> year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound very good to an insurance >>> agent. >>> Do any of you have a similar situation with perhaps training your >>> spouse or >>> children to fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me? >>> > >>> >Thank you! >>> > >>> >Take care, >>> >Dave >>> > >>> >DO NOT ARCHIVE >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Read this topic online here: >>> > >>> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179732#179732 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:00 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL- how long?- till R.I.P. I learned many years ago that the quality that controls an airplane's response to turbulent air is wing loading. The higher the wing loading, the lower the response to turbulence. This would make the HDS better in rough air than the HD. It also makes jet fighters much better for flying in rough air than Piper Cubs. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 01:25 PM 4/27/2008, you wrote: >I have been flying a 601HD for 3 years with 300hrs now. It is not >smooth in turbulent air. In fact I get bounced around pretty good in >turbulent air. Probably due to the fact that is is a high lift wing >and a light airplane. Now the HDS wing is probably smoother but it >has its trade offs too. Overall, the 601HD is a solid airplane and >fun to fly... >John >Do not archive > > > I actually like the olders designs better, the 601 HD is my > favorite. Those > > thick, thick wings skip through turbulant air with ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:06 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music > Sitting here in Northern Minnesota, it's nearly May, and we're > expecting 11-15 inches of SNOW by tomorrow morning (third weekend > out of the last 4 with more than a foot of snow) It's all because of Global Warming, don't you know? Out here in the NW rain forest, we have had more snow this year than the last 10 put together . . . Paul XL fuselage do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: rear wing spars From: "leinad" Lee, A see a few others have posted the splice 2 pieces method. I can't say what's best, but I made all my long bends, including the rear spar, the rear longerons and others by bending the metal over a board. I've prepared a 3/4" piece of oak that is 12 foot long with an edge that is cut back about 30 degrees, then rounded to the desired radius. I clamp the metal between this board (on the bottom) and another 2/4 on top to my work bench. I then bend the metal over, at first by hand, then using a soft rubber mallet. I go a little bit at a time until the bend is formed. There are pictures in the Wings section on my web sight of the rear spars. http:\daniel.dempseyfamily.us By the way, this is basically the same edge treatment I used on all my forming blocks. Anyway that's how I did it. Dan 601XL plans builder. (fuselage complete) > "zenith-list(at)steensland"]Looking ahead a little, I was wondering how scratch builders are bending > their rear wing spars? Most of the D-I-Y brakes I've seen are all 8' > and the spar is a full 12'. > > Are people extending their brakes to bend a full 12' or are they farming > out those few bends. > > > -- > Lee Steensland > 601XL/Corvair (7637L reserved) Kit/Scratch builder 0.01% complete! -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179932#179932 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Registration questions E-LSA From: "dstasch" Perhaps I could put in a single stick for the right seat, and the rudder/brake pedals in the left seat? ;) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179935#179935 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft From: "leinad" Tim, It might work, but I think it could have the opposite effect. By having the stop along way from the flap actuating lever, the flap is allowed to twist a little in the up position so that it's solidly held. By putting a stop inboard, there won't be any twist and you may have it held firm on the inboard side but the flexibility of the flap will allow it to just rattle against the other stop. If they could be adjusted so that the outboard one engaged first, allowed the flap to twist or spring a little, then the inboard one touches it might work. All this just to say, I don't think your idea is a simple slam dunk. Dan > ="Tim Juhl"]Flap Stop comment - The nylon stop does a good job of preventing movement of the retracted flap at the outboard end, while the inboard end is restrained by the actuating pin which rests in a slot. I am considering installing a second stop at the inboard end to make it even more solid. > > Comments? > > Tim > > Do not archive -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179937#179937 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:27 PM PST US From: Larry Hursh Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music Dear Paul, I'm not sure if you are complaining or bragging. Which is it....lol? Don't feel like your the only one there Lone Ranger. They are predicting sleet for my area here and possibly turning to snow before morning. Lucky, aren't we?? I live in the lower southwest of lower Michigan - near South Bend Indiana. The fruit trees are starting to bloom and the farmers are getting worried (their yearly worry of course). Remember, it is ONLY April yet. I've seen it snow in June! Regards, Larry Hursh CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning) (N601LL Reserved) SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com Keep your eyes skyward - always! Do Not Archive --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:48 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: extended wing tips Gday Bill, I just dug out this old post cause I'm getting ready to try some such experiments. Could you elaborate more of what effects you felt and if you think there may possibilities there?? Also any more info you have on those 'fences' that Bob Jones did. I understand there's a few such mods on various aircraft flying around in Alaska. I've already made slip-on square wingtips to see if those Hoerner tips as done on the 701 really do the job they're claimed. At the same time I'd like to try some different versions of fences and winglets. My aircraft will be in the workshop for a month while I do some other mods for carrying a bicycle, etc., so it's a good chance to make up some different wingtips. Hoping you are getting some good spring weather already. Cheers, JG ----- Original Message ----- From: Keystone Engineering LLC To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:09 AM Subject: Zenith-List: extended wing tips I installed a flat sheet of sheet metal to the flat portion of the wing tip on my 801. It extends about 3" above the wing in front and about 8" above the trailing edge. For now I just used 100 mile an hour tape to install it. I installed one to see if I could detect any change in flight characteristics. I was hoping for a yawing of the plane indicating less drag. What I got was a rolling effect. Normally when I fly the plane with just me in the left seat the left wing is heavy. With the extended wing tip on the left side the plane flew straight. What got me started thinking about modifying the wing tip was talking with Bob Jones who installed "stall fences" on his 701. He said the "Dutch roll" tendency was greatly reduced. He really like the way it flew. I looked at the latest thoughts on wing tips and thought can I improve the flight characteristics a couple of percent. Has anyone else experimented with this? Can anyone tell me if I have more lift will you go faster? or slower? Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, AK 290 hrs Spring has finally sprung! ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:46 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: extended wing tips Sorry everyone, that was meant to be a PM direct to Bill. Do not archive. JG ----- Original Message ----- From: JG To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: extended wing tips Gday Bill, I just dug out this old post cause I'm getting ready to try some such experiments. Could you elaborate more of what effects you felt and if you think there may possibilities there?? Also any more info you have on those 'fences' that Bob Jones did. I understand there's a few such mods on various aircraft flying around in Alaska. I've already made slip-on square wingtips to see if those Hoerner tips as done on the 701 really do the job they're claimed. At the same time I'd like to try some different versions of fences and winglets. My aircraft will be in the workshop for a month while I do some other mods for carrying a bicycle, etc., so it's a good chance to make up some different wingtips. Hoping you are getting some good spring weather already. Cheers, JG ----- Original Message ----- From: Keystone Engineering LLC To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:09 AM Subject: Zenith-List: extended wing tips I installed a flat sheet of sheet metal to the flat portion of the wing tip on my 801. It extends about 3" above the wing in front and about 8" above the trailing edge. For now I just used 100 mile an hour tape to install it. I installed one to see if I could detect any change in flight characteristics. I was hoping for a yawing of the plane indicating less drag. What I got was a rolling effect. Normally when I fly the plane with just me in the left seat the left wing is heavy. With the extended wing tip on the left side the plane flew straight. What got me started thinking about modifying the wing tip was talking with Bob Jones who installed "stall fences" on his 701. He said the "Dutch roll" tendency was greatly reduced. He really like the way it flew. I looked at the latest thoughts on wing tips and thought can I improve the flight characteristics a couple of percent. Has anyone else experimented with this? Can anyone tell me if I have more lift will you go faster? or slower? Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, AK 290 hrs Spring has finally sprung! ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:06 PM PST US From: Bob Sturgis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music California, Southern, 100 Deg. Sunny, Beach time. Fly time. :):):) ----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Hursh Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:59:59 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music Dear Paul, I'm not sure if you are complaining or bragging. Which is it....lol? Don't feel like your the only one there Lone Ranger. They are predicting sleet for my area here and possibly turning to snow before morning. Lucky, aren't we?? I live in the lower southwest of lower Michigan - near South Bend Indiana. The fruit trees are starting to bloom and the farmers are getting worried (their yearly worry of course). Remember, it is ONLY April yet. I've seen it snow in June! Regards, Larry Hursh CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning) (N601LL Reserved) SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com Keep your eyes skyward - always! Do Not Archive Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:36 PM PST US From: Lawrence Webber Subject: RE: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE Larry From: paulrod36@msn.comTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Zenith-Lis t: canopy latch cableDate: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:06:46 -0500 Try the nearest Ace Hardware store. They carry cables from 1/16th up to 1/4 th, and you can cut off any length you need. They are not stainless, but, n ot being exposed to the elements, they'll last probably longer than you and I will. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable he same type cable is used for brake and shift cables on bicycles. Check y our local bicycle shop to see if they have some you can cut to length.>> - g on my canopy frame and I need to purchase the canopy > latch cable. Is this a throttle cable? If so, does someone either > have a part number or some specs. I've looked at some throttle > cables on Summit Racing catal og, but not sure what the best length > would be.> Dan Dempsey> Plans buil ding 601XL.>-- Bryan MartinN61BM, CH 601 XL,RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.do not ======================= =======================p://ww w.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List href="http://wwwmatronics.com/Navig ator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigat======== ============bsp; --> _________________________________________________________________ Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause. MSN_Make_IM_Yours ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:25 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music Paul Mulwitz wrote: > > >> Sitting here in Northern Minnesota, it's nearly May, and we're >> expecting 11-15 inches of SNOW by tomorrow morning (third weekend out >> of the last 4 with more than a foot of snow) > > Paul: I grew up in Park Rapids so I know about the long winters. It was 90 degrees here yesterday (Central Valley of California). Dan Wilde ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft From: "Tim Juhl" Dan, Now you know why I asked. Many minds do a better job of analyzing a problem than one. I'll have to give it some thought and first see how securely it is held after I actually get to installing it. Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179947#179947 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:23 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE pleas use aviation grade cable, much better design than marine grade. aviation grade is grease impreged, and more strands per cable. Don't cut corners! Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Lawrence Webber >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 8:38 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE > > >Larry > > >From: paulrod36@msn.comTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cableDate: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:06:46 -0500 > > >Try the nearest Ace Hardware store. They carry cables from 1/16th up to 1/4th, and you can cut off any length you need. They are not stainless, but, not being exposed to the elements, they'll last probably longer than you and I will. > > >Paul Rodriguez > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bryan Martin >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:33 PM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. >MSN_Make_IM_Yours ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:17 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft Dans right dude, when the flap goes up, it hits the outside stop and locks in place by continuing to move an additional 2mm or so up, hence locking up. If you are hell bent on putting two stops, one in and one outboard. make the outboard 5mm per plans then the inboard 3mm. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: leinad >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 7:55 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The accident versus ready to fly aircraft > > >Tim, >It might work, but I think it could have the opposite effect. By having the stop along way from the flap actuating lever, the flap is allowed to twist a little in the up position so that it's solidly held. By putting a stop inboard, there won't be any twist and you may have it held firm on the inboard side but the flexibility of the flap will allow it to just rattle against the other stop. If they could be adjusted so that the outboard one engaged first, allowed the flap to twist or spring a little, then the inboard one touches it might work. All this just to say, I don't think your idea is a simple slam dunk. >Dan > > >> ="Tim Juhl"]Flap Stop comment - The nylon stop does a good job of preventing movement of the retracted flap at the outboard end, while the inboard end is restrained by the actuating pin which rests in a slot. I am considering installing a second stop at the inboard end to make it even more solid. >> >> Comments? >> >> Tim >> >> Do not archive > > >-------- >Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179937#179937 > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: extended wing tips From: "kmccune" Sooo. the cat is out of the bag! :D Do not archive! Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179951#179951 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: New Letter from Chris From: "Tim Juhl" There is a new letter from Chris (4/24) about the S & F accident posted to the Builder Updates and Resources site. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179955#179955 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:23 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE We're not talking about control cables here, just canopy latch cables. The cables supplied with the kit for this purpose are most likely the same as the hardware store variety. Control cables are another matter entirely. > > pleas use aviation grade cable, much better design than marine grade. aviation grade is grease impreged, and more strands per cable. > Don't cut corners! > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:35 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music It was about 81 here in south FLA,so I took 'Riptide" for a little "romp" (22Donzi clasicc/425 hp) Sorry to hear about all that snow! Sombody ought to tell Al Gore about about all that snow, then again better not,he's made over 50 mill with this Global warming think. Enjoy your snow it will be hot as hell soon enough up there .. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music > > Paul Mulwitz wrote: >> >> >>> Sitting here in Northern Minnesota, it's nearly May, and we're >>> expecting 11-15 inches of SNOW by tomorrow morning (third weekend out of >>> the last 4 with more than a foot of snow) >> >> > Paul: I grew up in Park Rapids so I know about the long winters. It was > 90 degrees here yesterday (Central Valley of California). > > Dan Wilde > > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Prop for 601 XL From: "Tim Juhl" AMD http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/601_SLSA/601.html uses the 0-200 in their factory built plane. I checked the website but only found reference to a "Sensenich Fixed pitch prop." An email to AMD or Sensenich would probably supply the info you need. Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179962#179962 ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 From: "Tim Juhl" I've picked up a few references to a "New, triangular upper engine mount fitting." I took delivery of my kit in May 2006. Has there been a redesign of the mount since then that I am not aware of? Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179963#179963 ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 From: "Tim Juhl" I've picked up a few references to a "New, triangular upper engine mount fitting." I took delivery of my kit in May 2006. Has there been a redesign of the mount since then that I am not aware of? Tim Do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179964#179964 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Upper engine mount 6B6-4 From: "PatrickW" Tim Juhl wrote: > I've picked up a few references to a "New, triangular upper engine mount fitting." http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/Zenith601XLBRSBrackets Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179968#179968 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:21 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music IF PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF TIME ON THERE HANDS INSIST ON POSTING THESE TYPES OF MESSAGES PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU MARK THEM DO NOT ARCHIVE. I personaly have no use for USA weather reports as I am in Australia and we have TV weather reports every evening I have a CH701 and am BUILDING an other and Subscribe to this Builders website for Building tips suggestione etc Already bored shitless with wings failing on 601 posts. Please DO NOT ARCHIVE Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: "Southern Reflections" Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music > > > It was about 81 here in south FLA,so I took 'Riptide" for a little "romp" > (22Donzi clasicc/425 hp) Sorry to hear about all that snow! Sombody > ought to tell Al Gore about about all that snow, then again better > not,he's made over 50 mill with this Global warming think. Enjoy your snow > it will be hot as hell soon enough up there .. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:47 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Music > > >> >> Paul Mulwitz wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Sitting here in Northern Minnesota, it's nearly May, and we're >>>> expecting 11-15 inches of SNOW by tomorrow morning (third weekend out >>>> of the last 4 with more than a foot of snow) >>> >>> >> Paul: I grew up in Park Rapids so I know about the long winters. It was >> 90 degrees here yesterday (Central Valley of California). >> >> Dan Wilde >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Date: 28/04/2008 1:29 PM > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Andrewlieser" Can you post it to the forum? Thanks, Andrew -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179981#179981 ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:29 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE remember that the cabin latch cable will be in a weather prone area that will not be accessible. Go with a cable that will not need replacement due to weather. DOn't skimp unless you want to drill rivets out and replace the cable down the road. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Bryan Martin >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 9:09 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: canopy latch cable MARINE STORES CARRY STAINLESS CABLE > > >We're not talking about control cables here, just canopy latch cables. >The cables supplied with the kit for this purpose are most likely the >same as the hardware store variety. > >Control cables are another matter entirely. > >> >> pleas use aviation grade cable, much better design than marine grade. aviation grade is grease impreged, and more strands per cable. >> Don't cut corners! >> > >-- >Bryan Martin >Zenith 601XL N61BM >Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive >Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Drill guides for reamers From: "Ron Lendon" I improvised a solution with a vee-block when I reamed my spar attach points. It was to big to move once the dihedral was set, so I just did it in place. It gives you a good visual to start and follow. It was actually two hands, (picture was pre-tripod), one holding the drill/reamer and one holding the vee-block. Use lots of tap-magic to keep it wet while reaming. Here is a link: http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1683&log=24457&row=193 -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179983#179983 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:35 PM PST US From: Grant Corriveau Subject: Zenith-List: Ignition cables? My CAM100 (Honda 1.5L conversion) has only 60 hours over the past 7 years. Sheesh - check the archives for trials and tribulations along the way. Anyhow, of late it's running very nicely but I do notice what might be a slight missing when the engine is loaded up in climb mode. It's not really pronounced and I can't detect it in other operational modes. Of course there's always a chance that it's really just an aerodynamic buffet of some sort that pulses the underbelly of the aircraft in certain conditions... At any rate, after 7 years I figure the ignition cables should be changed along with new plugs asap. That'll hopefully fix the problem. Does anyone have any particular brands that work well and endure the heat and vibes of an aircraft installation? Thanks. Grant Corriveau grant.corriveau@telus.net ----------------------------- The Wings Stayed On! http://aluwings.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: rear wing spars From: "Ron Lendon" I bent mine in a press brake but could only get them 90 degrees so I setup a fixture on the table top to tweak the flanges and hold the size between bends. see it here: http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1683&log=24458&row=192 You can also bend it by hand as Dan suggests just go slow, bend a little at a time the whole length. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179988#179988 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Ron Lendon" Here it is: -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179991#179991 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cheintz_ntsb_nyc08fa158_519.pdf ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:13 PM PST US From: Christian Tremblay Subject: RE: Zenith-List: rear wing spars Lee, go on my web site http://www.zodiac640.com/ On this specific page below, you will see how I do this kind of bending for my tail wing spar ( 9 feet x .040 in 6061-T6). The spar is around 3 meter long. Special bending technique required to bend with increment of 10 degrees, on a left and right alternance bending. http://www.zodiac640.com/tail.htm I do also other bendings for my wing spars (12 feet long for uper and lower angle in .032 in 6061-T6) with my 8 feet brake. Good visit. Ask me questions if you have those after visit. A+ Christian Tremblay CH640 Plan builder -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Steensland Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 14:45 Subject: Zenith-List: rear wing spars Looking ahead a little, I was wondering how scratch builders are bending their rear wing spars? Most of the D-I-Y brakes I've seen are all 8' and the spar is a full 12'. Are people extending their brakes to bend a full 12' or are they farming out those few bends. -- Lee Steensland 601XL/Corvair (7637L reserved) Kit/Scratch builder 0.01% complete! ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:24 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Andrewlieser" Thanks! -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179995#179995 ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Prop for 601 XL From: "GLJSOJ1" I AM USING A WARP DRIVE THREE BLADE AT 68 INCHES. I WAS TOLD BY WARP DRIVE THAT I HAD TO USE A THREE BLADE DUE THE HIGH IMPULSE LOADS FROM THIS ENGINE. SO FAR WORKS GREAT ON TEST RUNS. I SHOULD BE FLYING A A FEW MORE WEEKS. IF ANYONE ELSE HAS THIS SETUP I'D SURE LIKE TO KNOW WHAT BLADE ANGLE YOU USED. -------- 601XL N676L reserved ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179998#179998 ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: extended wing tips From: "GLJSOJ1" WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO CARRY A BIKE? -------- 601XL N676L reserved ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179999#179999 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.