Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:01 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (xl)
2. 12:57 AM - Re: Re: Barcelona Crash (Iberplanes IGL)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: New Project Problems (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 06:36 AM - Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gig Giacona)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (dalemed)
6. 06:55 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Gig Giacona)
7. 07:05 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (LarryMcFarland)
8. 07:45 AM - Re: Empty weight (KC7HFA)
9. 07:56 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Craig Payne)
10. 08:50 AM - [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gig Giacona)
11. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gary Gower)
12. 09:23 AM - Zenith lists: 601, 640, STOL (Carlos Sa)
13. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Juan Vega)
14. 09:45 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Tim Juhl)
15. 09:58 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Gig Giacona)
16. 10:07 AM - Re: Another Canopy Question (dgardea(at)gmail.com)
17. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (japhillipsga@aol.com)
18. 11:59 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (Andrewlieser)
19. 12:37 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (MHerder)
20. 01:07 PM - Zenair 601 HDS (James MacDonald)
21. 02:17 PM - test (James E. Lanier)
22. 02:25 PM - Re: test (Ken Arnold)
23. 02:48 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz)
24. 04:47 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 05:49 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (steve)
26. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
27. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (steve)
28. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: New Letter from Chris (Jerry Shepard)
29. 08:11 PM - Good Bye and Good Luck (steve)
30. 08:56 PM - Re: Good Bye and Good Luck (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
31. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (Terry Phillips)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
I thought the report about the Piper breakup was very good.
They did a dynamic analysis using a model that supported the
hypothesis that abrupt control movements, first in one direction then
the other lead to the wing failure. How about developing a dynamic
model that could be used to evaluate a number of failure scenarios?
I too tried to get an Aeronautical Engineering prof interested in
the analysis - no bite.
I'd like to know what happens when a flap is extended and the limit
switch allows the flap arm to leave the motor. I thought that I had
the flap controls adjusted well. But, on one preflight, the flap
arm departed and the flap fell unattached. That would leave the flap
flapping. I normally don't use flaps. But, when I do, I don't extend
them fully - I got bit in a gusty crosswind once.
Joe E @ BFI
CH601XL, 507 hours
Jabiru 3300, 64x51 Sensenich wood prop
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008, Terry Phillips wrote:
> At 02:24 PM 4/25/2008 -0500, John Bolding wrote:
>> Jeff,
> ......snip ........snip
> Draft Statement of Work:
> Zenith Builders Analysis Group
> Statement of Work for Zenith CH601XL Independent Engineering Analysis
> Rev. 0
> April 26, 2008
>
> GOAL: The goal of this analysis is to analyze the wing design of the
> CH601XL:
>
> * To attempt to determine whether the structure, as designed, has
> adequate strength to meet the published design loads of +6G and -3G.
> * Assuming that the analysis shows that the structure, as designed
> probably has adequate strength, then
> * Evaluate the susceptibility of the flaps and ailerons to flutter. If the
> analysis shows that flutter is a possible occurrence when a CH601XL is flown
> within the design envelope, then evaluate possible modifications to minimize
> or eliminate the flutter.
> * Consider the effect of design options on the ability of the wing to meet
> design standards:
> * Hinged vs. skin flex hinge aileron attachment.
> * Aileron trim tab option.
> * Wing locker option.
> * Landing light option.
> * Thirty gallon vs. 24 gallon fuel tanks.
> * ???
> * Consider, to the extent possible given time and budget constraints, the
> effect of typicalbuilder mistakes, e.g.,
> * Wrong size or kind of rivets used at high stress location.
> * Missing, loose, or wrong sized bolts.
> * Mis-placed or wrong sized openings, e.g., the hole for the aileron
> control rod, holes in ribs for wiring, fuel lines, pitot lines, etc.
> * Two or three piece nose skin
> * ???
> The first task will be to Review the information available about the
> accidents which have occurred that may have involved in-flight breakup of the
> aircraft structure. The purpose of this review is to discover information
> that might guide the analysis of the wing.
>
> At the completion of the investigation, the engineer will submit a written
> report covering the results and recommendations, if any, for changes to the
> aircraft design to reduce the possibility of in-flight breakup.
> do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Barcelona Crash |
William, Gary and I are working on the translation.
Talk to you soon.
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/4/30 jreekree <jerry@jerryandkari.com>:
>
> I still want to wait for the final determinations of these accidents, but
> it is remarkably similar to the witness reports of Bob's crash in Polk City.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180125#180125
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New Project Problems |
Hi Ron,
Just a guess on my part . . .
With aviation, the overwhelming characteristic of any design feature
is how much it weighs. A kit designer wrote in his newsletter a few
decades ago - "If you are considering adding something to my design,
throw it up in the air. If it comes back down it is too heavy."
This may explain why aircraft bolts are some three times as strong as
normal hardware store bolts and stronger than automotive bolts. They
cost more to make because of the alloys and machining difficulty, but
they weigh less for similar performance.
When a bolt is used in shear mode, the strength comes primarily from
the strength of the bolt rather than how well it is installed. So
long as it stays put, it does the job. That makes this a somewhat
more reliable connection than one that can be vibrated loose and fail
more easily. Indeed, you normally install aircraft bolts with the
threads facing downward. That means that even if the nut comes off
the bolt still does its job in shear strength.
Airplanes must be light and highly reliable. So my guess is the
reason for use of aircraft bolts in the common practice of shear mode
is done that way because it results in lighter and more reliable structures.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 07:18 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote:
>Coming from a structures background, this seems completely backward,
>so I googled a bit and found that for aerospace applications, bolted
>connections are usually designed with bolts in shear - a no-no for
>structures. I'm a curious as to why. All the web pages I found
>that might talk about this require a membership. Could you educate
>the group a bit on why aerospace connections rely on shear rather
>than clamping pressure, the norm for most applications?
>
>do not archive
>Ron
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
Unrecoverable spin at 300ft?
Out of CG envelope?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New Letter from Chris |
Thank you, George. That's quite a maze Zenith has assembled on their website.
Fortunately, their plans are easier to navigate than their website.
Dale
--------
Dale
Flying Cessna 170B
Building Zenith 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180232#180232
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New Letter from Chris |
That does seem to happen to web sites that aren't refurnished from time to time.
The Zenith site has been there pretty much unchanged since at least 2001. Stuff
has just been added over the years.
Pretty much like my attic, it's a mess and it is almost impossible to find anything
in it.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
dalemed wrote:
> Thank you, George. That's quite a maze Zenith has assembled on their website.
Fortunately, their plans are easier to navigate than their website.
>
> Dale
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180237#180237
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
Hi guys,
The loading and center of gravity probably had more to do with getting
into the condition in the
first place. The rearward weight of the BRS may have even contributed
to the situation.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Jay Maynard wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 07:04:38PM -0700, PatrickW wrote:
>
>> http://www.centredaily.com/business/story/558643.html
>>
>
> Nice. No folded wings, either.
>
> Wonder how he entered an "unrecoverable spin", though...
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Empty weight |
N601ZX came in at 744. Dynon D180 & D100, wing lockers, landing lights, Nav/strobes,
Jabiru 3300 with Ground adj prop, paint, upholstery and ready to fly, except
0 gal fuel in 15 gal tanks. I had Pacific Aviation weigh it on calibrated
scales.
Ron
--------
Ron Asbill
N601ZX - CH-601 XL
Jabiru 3300
Completed and Flying!~
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180252#180252
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
> The rearward weight of the BRS may have even contributed to the situation.
Except that the BRS was mounted near the firewall. Take a close look at the
picture. Although this may not be a CZAW 601XL that is where they mounted
theirs too.
-- Craig
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
Let's see if I've got this right. They put a rocket, made with explosives in the
place in the aircraft second most likely to have a fire. Great idea.
It's one thing to have a rocket engine a couple of feet behind your head but one
in front of me just plain freaks me out.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180268#180268
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
Personally I dont buy this ... All of us that have flown a Zenith airplane know
how dificult is to try to spin the ZAC airplanes.
Of course I have not tried to spin one and never will try. But we just need
to ask Roger or Sebastien IF they (at the factory) have spun tested the XL
and how they handle it.
I am sure was designed to come out of a spin easy (positive stability) as any
airplane (given is inside the weight and balance values).
What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger)
accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out...
Now as the airplane descends at about 700 fpm the airplane bent... Now they
want to "justify" the damage done to the airplane :-( Hope they are the
owners or have insurance.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying 701 912S Spin proof (too chicken :-)
Evil mind ;-) Do not archive.
Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
Unrecoverable spin at 300ft?
Out of CG envelope?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Zenith lists: 601, 640, STOL |
Hello, all
Perhaps this is obvious to other subscribers of this list, but I just
realized it today:
The traffic on the new (Zenith) lists does not get automatically posted here
(zenith-list).
If you are interested on the discussions taking place in the other three
lists, you have to subscribe to them at this URL:
http://www.matronics.com/subscription/
do not archive
Cheers
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Tail and right wing done.
Montreal, Canada
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
i put mine into a spin and after one turn it flew itself out.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Apr 30, 2008 12:13 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed
>
>Personally I dont buy this ... All of us that have flown a Zenith airplane
know how dificult is to try to spin the ZAC airplanes.
> Of course I have not tried to spin one and never will try. But we just need
to ask Roger or Sebastien IF they (at the factory) have spun tested the
XL and how they handle it.
> I am sure was designed to come out of a spin easy (positive stability) as any
airplane (given is inside the weight and balance values).
>
> What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger)
accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out...
> Now as the airplane descends at about 700 fpm the airplane bent... Now they
want to "justify" the damage done to the airplane :-( Hope they are the
owners or have insurance.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
> Flying 701 912S Spin proof (too chicken :-)
> Evil mind ;-) Do not archive.
>
>Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>Unrecoverable spin at 300ft?
>
>Out of CG envelope?
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: New Letter from Chris |
Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who at least
bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a link in my
original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to give the builder's
URL in the clear.
If you would like to register, visit http://www.zenithair.com/bldr.htm and register your serial number. You will then get the info you need to access the builder's pages for updates, letters and etc. If you have problems or bought the plans from someone else then call Shirley at Zenith and she can help you out.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180289#180289
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New Letter from Chris |
I understand why you didn't post the straight link but if Zenith wants to block
things inside that builders area from direct link it isn't really that hard.
They've already done the hard part.
Tim Juhl wrote:
> Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who at least
bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a link in my
original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to give the builder's
URL in the clear.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180295#180295
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Another Canopy Question |
Thanks for your help guys! I will be leaving my canopy kit off the order for now
and see what happens at Zenith later on this.
Regards,
Dave Gardea
do not archive
--------
Dave Gardea
601XL - Corvair
wings done - working on corvair while waiting for fuselage kit
http://home.comcast.net/~davegardea/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180297#180297
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
Andy, lawyers are not lazy! Bill of Georgia?
-----Original Message-----
From: ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 3:34 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group
I posted this in the Unintended Consequenses thread, but I think it's worth
noting here also just in case no one here is reading that thread. If you
haven't you might want to take a look at it.
The more I think about this, the more I agree. Lawyers already ruined general
avaition, no sense letting one buy another waterfront home in Boca Raton (and an
original restored P-51 Mustang as a trophy for a 'job(?) well done') and in the
process ruin homebuilding for everyone else. Too many lawyers in this country
and not enough real producing workers like homebuildes themselves. As soon as I
saw someone in the analysis group mention a lawyer, that's time to do a 180 on
that noise. Drop the issue, shut up and build your plane or sell or scrap it if
you don't want to build it. BUT DO NOT LET THE SPOILS OF GENUINE HARD WORK GO TO
LAZY PARASITIC LAWYERS THAT ARE AFRAID OF A HAMMER AND COULDN'T SURVIVE 3
SECONDS IN A WORLD WITHOUT SOMEONE TO LEACH OFF OF.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180023#180023
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
Has anyone spoke to the Hientz's about this potential independent analysis? If
so as an alternative route for disseminating the results of such an analysis
would it be best to provide all of the information and results to Zenith as well.
In doing this you could still provide a copy of the results to all parties
that paid for the analysis and allow others to have the information disseminated
to them through Zenith therefor disposing of any potential liability of the
analysis group. Just a thought. I do agree with the comment about the younger
generation getting excited about flying in general. Being 27 it is very
transparent to me and sometimes I feel like the last of a dying breed....
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180334#180334
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
Andrew,
I'm 26 so you're not the very last of the dying breed! I thought I was one of
the youngest builders in the group... That is till I heard about Sabrina... She
puts us all to shame! I am truly inspired by her story though and look forward
to seeing what she will do for aviation in the future. Perhaps another Burt
Rutan! I am definitely the youngest at my local EAA chapter during our monthly
meetings by at least 25 yrs or so.
Mike Herder
Zodiac XL Builder
N318MH
6-7019
HT and Rudder Complete, Fuselage is getting ready to get front skins. I guess
I'm about 35-40% there, not bad since I picked up the kit in December 07.
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180348#180348
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I have Frank Hinde"s Zenair 601 HDS for sale. Open to offers.
Email jmacdonald@city.lethbridge.ab.ca or phone 1-403-328-5473
James MacDonald
Purchasing & Supply Agent
City of Lethbridge;
403-320-4157
Message 21
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DO NOT ARCHIVE
test
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works
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier@charter.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: test
> <jim.lanier@charter.net>
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> test
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to
know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure
for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables?
What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though
the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably
be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to
the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight
is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic
balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
>
>
> Frank Roskind wrote:
>
> > Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at
> > higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at
> > high density altitudes.
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180382#180382
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Drill guides for reamers |
Hi John,
I found reaming the wing holes very easy without any guide. I used a
had reamer and drilled the holes about .020" small. Then I reamed
the holes. All of this was done with the spar assembly all put
together so the holes were automatically aligned - they were drilled
and reamed together simultaneously.
I ordered my reamers from MSC and got the right hand reamer with left
hand twist.
Have fun,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 11:49 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote:
>Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when
>reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that
>without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole
>would be next to impossible.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Drill guides for reamers |
I ordered a "step reamer" from Brown Tool.
Look on the web and email Michael Brown...
He is an A&P turned tool company expert who knows.....
Steve Weston
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers
>
> Hi John,
>
> I found reaming the wing holes very easy without any guide. I used a
> had reamer and drilled the holes about .020" small. Then I reamed
> the holes. All of this was done with the spar assembly all put
> together so the holes were automatically aligned - they were drilled
> and reamed together simultaneously.
>
> I ordered my reamers from MSC and got the right hand reamer with left
> hand twist.
>
> Have fun,
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
>
> At 11:49 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote:
>
>>Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when
>>reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that
>>without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole
>>would be next to impossible.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Andy,
I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose
wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons
it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's
RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case
of a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of
the weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right
wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call
for it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter
balance the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight
to
go.
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance
one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are
procedure for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the
control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even
though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would
probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a
mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance
weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about
dynamic balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
TRAILING EDGE ?
Oh brother.....
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter)
Andy,
I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a
nose wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of
the ailerons it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost
impossible. In the Van's RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe
inside the ailerons. In the case of a nose wheel you can add lead inside
the wheel pant and the shear mass of the weight make it harder to
shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing that folds first
and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for it in the
plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance the
ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to go.
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you
balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is
there are procedure for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the
control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons.
Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of
yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the
case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear
spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only
get me static balance, how about dynamic balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers
may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because
of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors
could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs.
piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any
one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may
be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a
natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced
in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
at AOL Autos.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: New Letter from Chris |
Perhaps someone can help me out.
I have been wondering just what part of the 601 structure Chris was worried
about failing from an aggressive elevator in the negative "G" catagory that
made him reccomend the new 15 Deg flap stop. as well as the 2007 letter. The
only thing that comes to mind that would stress the lower spar cap would be
the sudden down-up leveraged movement of the wing load. It would also seem
to me that any movement whatsoever would tend to want to spread the top and
bottom spar caps of the center spar which would further allow movement.
Just guessing--- If someone has either knoweledge as to Chris's thoughts on
the neg "G"s or reasons to be very concerned, (-6"G"s is a lot), please
post.
I think as for me and my son, we will work on the Corvair for a while to
give time for more information.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris
> <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
> I understand why you didn't post the straight link but if Zenith wants to
> block things inside that builders area from direct link it isn't really
> that hard. They've already done the hard part.
>
>
> Tim Juhl wrote:
>> Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who
>> at least bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a
>> link in my original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to
>> give the builder's URL in the clear.
>>
>
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180295#180295
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Good Bye and Good Luck |
If you read my posts a few months back about the experiences of a poster
by the name of "Wang Chung", you ll know why I m saying Good Bye and
Good Luck.
There is a majority of people on this site who know what they are
talking about. You guys, Larry , Paul, Craig and others that I cant
think of right now are the best. Your knowledge is an asset to other
builders and I hope you continue.
But I just got to tell ya, THIS SITE has its Wang Chungs.
You Chungs are giving out information that may kill a newbie pilot. It
just gives me a total stomach ache to read what your saying. Your
expertise is DEADLY. Time and time again I read total Bull Shit...
Again, as before to you newbie's: Listen to all information and divide
by two...
Look up a posters name in the FAA site. Look at ratings and
backgrounds.
You will probably NOT find these Wangs in the registry...
Sure you've got your engineers. DIVIDE BY TWO !
Flutter, aileron balance, causes of failures etc.
Wangs have the answer and know how to fix the problems.
No need to respond to the rant cause Matronics is about to be removed
from my computer.
Matt, sorry about next years donation. It aint coming....
S. Weston
Good Bye
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Good Bye and Good Luck |
I believe you have to say un subs cribe Have a nice day ;)
In a message dated 4/30/2008 11:12:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes:
If you read my posts a few months back about the experiences of a poster by
the name of "Wang Chung", you ll know why I m saying Good Bye and Good Luck.
There is a majority of people on this site who know what they are talking
about. You guys, Larry , Paul, Craig and others that I cant think of right now
are the best. Your knowledge is an asset to other builders and I hope you
continue.
But I just got to tell ya, THIS SITE has its Wang Chungs.
You Chungs are giving out information that may kill a newbie pilot. It
just gives me a total stomach ache to read what your saying. Your expertise is
DEADLY. Time and time again I read total Bull Shit...
Again, as before to you newbie's: Listen to all information and divide by
two...
Look up a posters name in the FAA site. Look at ratings and backgrounds.
You will probably NOT find these Wangs in the registry...
Sure you've got your engineers. DIVIDE BY TWO !
Flutter, aileron balance, causes of failures etc.
Wangs have the answer and know how to fix the problems.
No need to respond to the rant cause Matronics is about to be removed from
my computer.
Matt, sorry about next years donation. It aint coming....
S. Weston
Good Bye
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
Good point, Andrew.
Sounds like a good idea to me. If we are lucky enough to find an engineer
to do the analysis, and, if we can raise the necessary funds, I think
Zenith should get a copy of the report.
And, responding to a earlier post (I think by Craig Payne) it would be
wonderful to have Zenith support the analysis with data and/or design
information. I'm not sure how to make that happen. Suggestions, anyone?
Terry
At 11:56 AM 4/30/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone spoke to the Hientz's about this potential independent
>analysis? If so as an alternative route for disseminating the results of
>such an analysis would it be best to provide all of the information and
>results to Zenith as well. In doing this you could still provide a copy
>of the results to all parties that paid for the analysis and allow others
>to have the information disseminated to them through Zenith therefor
>disposing of any potential liability of the analysis group. Just a
>thought. I do agree with the comment about the younger generation getting
>excited about flying in general. Being 27 it is very transparent to me
>and sometimes I feel like the last of a dying breed....
>
>--------
>Andrew Lieser
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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