---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/30/08: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:01 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (xl) 2. 12:57 AM - Re: Re: Barcelona Crash (Iberplanes IGL) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: New Project Problems (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 06:36 AM - Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gig Giacona) 5. 06:44 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (dalemed) 6. 06:55 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Gig Giacona) 7. 07:05 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (LarryMcFarland) 8. 07:45 AM - Re: Empty weight (KC7HFA) 9. 07:56 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Craig Payne) 10. 08:50 AM - [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gig Giacona) 11. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Gary Gower) 12. 09:23 AM - Zenith lists: 601, 640, STOL (Carlos Sa) 13. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (Juan Vega) 14. 09:45 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Tim Juhl) 15. 09:58 AM - Re: New Letter from Chris (Gig Giacona) 16. 10:07 AM - Re: Another Canopy Question (dgardea(at)gmail.com) 17. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (japhillipsga@aol.com) 18. 11:59 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (Andrewlieser) 19. 12:37 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (MHerder) 20. 01:07 PM - Zenair 601 HDS (James MacDonald) 21. 02:17 PM - test (James E. Lanier) 22. 02:25 PM - Re: test (Ken Arnold) 23. 02:48 PM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz) 24. 04:47 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (Paul Mulwitz) 25. 05:49 PM - Re: Drill guides for reamers (steve) 26. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 27. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (steve) 28. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: New Letter from Chris (Jerry Shepard) 29. 08:11 PM - Good Bye and Good Luck (steve) 30. 08:56 PM - Re: Good Bye and Good Luck (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 31. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (Terry Phillips) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:20 AM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith Builders Analysis Group I thought the report about the Piper breakup was very good. They did a dynamic analysis using a model that supported the hypothesis that abrupt control movements, first in one direction then the other lead to the wing failure. How about developing a dynamic model that could be used to evaluate a number of failure scenarios? I too tried to get an Aeronautical Engineering prof interested in the analysis - no bite. I'd like to know what happens when a flap is extended and the limit switch allows the flap arm to leave the motor. I thought that I had the flap controls adjusted well. But, on one preflight, the flap arm departed and the flap fell unattached. That would leave the flap flapping. I normally don't use flaps. But, when I do, I don't extend them fully - I got bit in a gusty crosswind once. Joe E @ BFI CH601XL, 507 hours Jabiru 3300, 64x51 Sensenich wood prop On Sat, 26 Apr 2008, Terry Phillips wrote: > At 02:24 PM 4/25/2008 -0500, John Bolding wrote: >> Jeff, > ......snip ........snip > Draft Statement of Work: > Zenith Builders Analysis Group > Statement of Work for Zenith CH601XL Independent Engineering Analysis > Rev. 0 > April 26, 2008 > > GOAL: The goal of this analysis is to analyze the wing design of the > CH601XL: > > * To attempt to determine whether the structure, as designed, has > adequate strength to meet the published design loads of +6G and -3G. > * Assuming that the analysis shows that the structure, as designed > probably has adequate strength, then > * Evaluate the susceptibility of the flaps and ailerons to flutter. If the > analysis shows that flutter is a possible occurrence when a CH601XL is flown > within the design envelope, then evaluate possible modifications to minimize > or eliminate the flutter. > * Consider the effect of design options on the ability of the wing to meet > design standards: > * Hinged vs. skin flex hinge aileron attachment. > * Aileron trim tab option. > * Wing locker option. > * Landing light option. > * Thirty gallon vs. 24 gallon fuel tanks. > * ??? > * Consider, to the extent possible given time and budget constraints, the > effect of typicalbuilder mistakes, e.g., > * Wrong size or kind of rivets used at high stress location. > * Missing, loose, or wrong sized bolts. > * Mis-placed or wrong sized openings, e.g., the hole for the aileron > control rod, holes in ribs for wiring, fuel lines, pitot lines, etc. > * Two or three piece nose skin > * ??? > The first task will be to Review the information available about the > accidents which have occurred that may have involved in-flight breakup of the > aircraft structure. The purpose of this review is to discover information > that might guide the analysis of the wing. > > At the completion of the investigation, the engineer will submit a written > report covering the results and recommendations, if any, for changes to the > aircraft design to reduce the possibility of in-flight breakup. > do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:31 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Barcelona Crash William, Gary and I are working on the translation. Talk to you soon. Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain 2008/4/30 jreekree : > > I still want to wait for the final determinations of these accidents, but > it is remarkably similar to the witness reports of Bob's crash in Polk City. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180125#180125 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:34 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Project Problems Hi Ron, Just a guess on my part . . . With aviation, the overwhelming characteristic of any design feature is how much it weighs. A kit designer wrote in his newsletter a few decades ago - "If you are considering adding something to my design, throw it up in the air. If it comes back down it is too heavy." This may explain why aircraft bolts are some three times as strong as normal hardware store bolts and stronger than automotive bolts. They cost more to make because of the alloys and machining difficulty, but they weigh less for similar performance. When a bolt is used in shear mode, the strength comes primarily from the strength of the bolt rather than how well it is installed. So long as it stays put, it does the job. That makes this a somewhat more reliable connection than one that can be vibrated loose and fail more easily. Indeed, you normally install aircraft bolts with the threads facing downward. That means that even if the nut comes off the bolt still does its job in shear strength. Airplanes must be light and highly reliable. So my guess is the reason for use of aircraft bolts in the common practice of shear mode is done that way because it results in lighter and more reliable structures. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 07:18 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote: >Coming from a structures background, this seems completely backward, >so I googled a bit and found that for aerospace applications, bolted >connections are usually designed with bolts in shear - a no-no for >structures. I'm a curious as to why. All the web pages I found >that might talk about this require a membership. Could you educate >the group a bit on why aerospace connections rely on shear rather >than clamping pressure, the norm for most applications? > >do not archive >Ron ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed From: "Gig Giacona" Unrecoverable spin at 300ft? Out of CG envelope? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "dalemed" Thank you, George. That's quite a maze Zenith has assembled on their website. Fortunately, their plans are easier to navigate than their website. Dale -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180232#180232 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Gig Giacona" That does seem to happen to web sites that aren't refurnished from time to time. The Zenith site has been there pretty much unchanged since at least 2001. Stuff has just been added over the years. Pretty much like my attic, it's a mess and it is almost impossible to find anything in it. DO NOT ARCHIVE dalemed wrote: > Thank you, George. That's quite a maze Zenith has assembled on their website. Fortunately, their plans are easier to navigate than their website. > > Dale -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180237#180237 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:02 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Zenith-List: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed Hi guys, The loading and center of gravity probably had more to do with getting into the condition in the first place. The rearward weight of the BRS may have even contributed to the situation. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 07:04:38PM -0700, PatrickW wrote: > >> http://www.centredaily.com/business/story/558643.html >> > > Nice. No folded wings, either. > > Wonder how he entered an "unrecoverable spin", though... > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Empty weight From: "KC7HFA" N601ZX came in at 744. Dynon D180 & D100, wing lockers, landing lights, Nav/strobes, Jabiru 3300 with Ground adj prop, paint, upholstery and ready to fly, except 0 gal fuel in 15 gal tanks. I had Pacific Aviation weigh it on calibrated scales. Ron -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180252#180252 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:14 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Re: Zenith-List: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed > The rearward weight of the BRS may have even contributed to the situation. Except that the BRS was mounted near the firewall. Take a close look at the picture. Although this may not be a CZAW 601XL that is where they mounted theirs too. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [Probable Spam] Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed From: "Gig Giacona" Let's see if I've got this right. They put a rocket, made with explosives in the place in the aircraft second most likely to have a fire. Great idea. It's one thing to have a rocket engine a couple of feet behind your head but one in front of me just plain freaks me out. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180268#180268 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:26 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed Personally I dont buy this ... All of us that have flown a Zenith airplane know how dificult is to try to spin the ZAC airplanes. Of course I have not tried to spin one and never will try. But we just need to ask Roger or Sebastien IF they (at the factory) have spun tested the XL and how they handle it. I am sure was designed to come out of a spin easy (positive stability) as any airplane (given is inside the weight and balance values). What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger) accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out... Now as the airplane descends at about 700 fpm the airplane bent... Now they want to "justify" the damage done to the airplane :-( Hope they are the owners or have insurance. Saludos Gary Gower Flying 701 912S Spin proof (too chicken :-) Evil mind ;-) Do not archive. Gig Giacona wrote: Unrecoverable spin at 300ft? Out of CG envelope? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:04 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith lists: 601, 640, STOL Hello, all Perhaps this is obvious to other subscribers of this list, but I just realized it today: The traffic on the new (Zenith) lists does not get automatically posted here (zenith-list). If you are interested on the discussions taking place in the other three lists, you have to subscribe to them at this URL: http://www.matronics.com/subscription/ do not archive Cheers Carlos CH601-HD, plans Tail and right wing done. Montreal, Canada ________________________________ Reminder: ****************************************************************************** Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith601-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith601-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith601-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith601-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:18 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed i put mine into a spin and after one turn it flew itself out. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Gary Gower >Sent: Apr 30, 2008 12:13 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed > >Personally I dont buy this ... All of us that have flown a Zenith airplane know how dificult is to try to spin the ZAC airplanes. > Of course I have not tried to spin one and never will try. But we just need to ask Roger or Sebastien IF they (at the factory) have spun tested the XL and how they handle it. > I am sure was designed to come out of a spin easy (positive stability) as any airplane (given is inside the weight and balance values). > > What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger) accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out... > Now as the airplane descends at about 700 fpm the airplane bent... Now they want to "justify" the damage done to the airplane :-( Hope they are the owners or have insurance. > > Saludos > Gary Gower > Flying 701 912S Spin proof (too chicken :-) > Evil mind ;-) Do not archive. > >Gig Giacona wrote: > >Unrecoverable spin at 300ft? > >Out of CG envelope? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180228#180228 > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Tim Juhl" Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who at least bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a link in my original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to give the builder's URL in the clear. If you would like to register, visit http://www.zenithair.com/bldr.htm and register your serial number. You will then get the info you need to access the builder's pages for updates, letters and etc. If you have problems or bought the plans from someone else then call Shirley at Zenith and she can help you out. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180289#180289 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris From: "Gig Giacona" I understand why you didn't post the straight link but if Zenith wants to block things inside that builders area from direct link it isn't really that hard. They've already done the hard part. Tim Juhl wrote: > Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who at least bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a link in my original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to give the builder's URL in the clear. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180295#180295 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another Canopy Question From: "dgardea(at)gmail.com" Thanks for your help guys! I will be leaving my canopy kit off the order for now and see what happens at Zenith later on this. Regards, Dave Gardea do not archive -------- Dave Gardea 601XL - Corvair wings done - working on corvair while waiting for fuselage kit http://home.comcast.net/~davegardea/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180297#180297 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group From: japhillipsga@aol.com Andy, lawyers are not lazy! Bill of Georgia? -----Original Message----- From: ashontz Sent: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 3:34 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group I posted this in the Unintended Consequenses thread, but I think it's worth noting here also just in case no one here is reading that thread. If you haven't you might want to take a look at it. The more I think about this, the more I agree. Lawyers already ruined general avaition, no sense letting one buy another waterfront home in Boca Raton (and an original restored P-51 Mustang as a trophy for a 'job(?) well done') and in the process ruin homebuilding for everyone else. Too many lawyers in this country and not enough real producing workers like homebuildes themselves. As soon as I saw someone in the analysis group mention a lawyer, that's time to do a 180 on that noise. Drop the issue, shut up and build your plane or sell or scrap it if you don't want to build it. BUT DO NOT LET THE SPOILS OF GENUINE HARD WORK GO TO LAZY PARASITIC LAWYERS THAT ARE AFRAID OF A HAMMER AND COULDN'T SURVIVE 3 SECONDS IN A WORLD WITHOUT SOMEONE TO LEACH OFF OF. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180023#180023 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group From: "Andrewlieser" Has anyone spoke to the Hientz's about this potential independent analysis? If so as an alternative route for disseminating the results of such an analysis would it be best to provide all of the information and results to Zenith as well. In doing this you could still provide a copy of the results to all parties that paid for the analysis and allow others to have the information disseminated to them through Zenith therefor disposing of any potential liability of the analysis group. Just a thought. I do agree with the comment about the younger generation getting excited about flying in general. Being 27 it is very transparent to me and sometimes I feel like the last of a dying breed.... -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180334#180334 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group From: "MHerder" Andrew, I'm 26 so you're not the very last of the dying breed! I thought I was one of the youngest builders in the group... That is till I heard about Sabrina... She puts us all to shame! I am truly inspired by her story though and look forward to seeing what she will do for aviation in the future. Perhaps another Burt Rutan! I am definitely the youngest at my local EAA chapter during our monthly meetings by at least 25 yrs or so. Mike Herder Zodiac XL Builder N318MH 6-7019 HT and Rudder Complete, Fuselage is getting ready to get front skins. I guess I'm about 35-40% there, not bad since I picked up the kit in December 07. -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180348#180348 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair 601 HDS From: "James MacDonald" I have Frank Hinde"s Zenair 601 HDS for sale. Open to offers. Email jmacdonald@city.lethbridge.ab.ca or phone 1-403-328-5473 James MacDonald Purchasing & Supply Agent City of Lethbridge; 403-320-4157 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:08 PM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Zenith-List: test DO NOT ARCHIVE test ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:16 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: test works do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Lanier" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: test > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > test > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) From: "ashontz" Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure for this. I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them? Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic balance? Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: > Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may > remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of > flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter > For > example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could > be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), > additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the > aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one > of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be > a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural > frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a > way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight > envelope. > > -Gus > > > Frank Roskind wrote: > > > Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at > > higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at > > high density altitudes. > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180382#180382 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:29 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers Hi John, I found reaming the wing holes very easy without any guide. I used a had reamer and drilled the holes about .020" small. Then I reamed the holes. All of this was done with the spar assembly all put together so the holes were automatically aligned - they were drilled and reamed together simultaneously. I ordered my reamers from MSC and got the right hand reamer with left hand twist. Have fun, Paul XL fuselage At 11:49 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote: >Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when >reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that >without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole >would be next to impossible. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:21 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers I ordered a "step reamer" from Brown Tool. Look on the web and email Michael Brown... He is an A&P turned tool company expert who knows..... Steve Weston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guides for reamers > > Hi John, > > I found reaming the wing holes very easy without any guide. I used a > had reamer and drilled the holes about .020" small. Then I reamed > the holes. All of this was done with the spar assembly all put > together so the holes were automatically aligned - they were drilled > and reamed together simultaneously. > > I ordered my reamers from MSC and got the right hand reamer with left > hand twist. > > Have fun, > > Paul > XL fuselage > > > > At 11:49 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote: > >>Can any of you recommend a source for drill guides for use when >>reaming a hole to such close tolerances? I'm thinking that >>without some kind of guide that reaming a perfectly aligned hole >>would be next to impossible. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:39 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) Andy, I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to go. Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure for this. I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them? Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic balance? Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: > Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may > remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of > flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter > For > example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could > be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), > additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the > aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one > of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be > a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural > frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a > way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight > envelope. > > -Gus **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:00 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) TRAILING EDGE ? Oh brother..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) Andy, I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to go. Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure for this. I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them? Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic balance? Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: > Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may > remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of > flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter > For > example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could > be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), > additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the > aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one > of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be > a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural > frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a > way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight > envelope. > > -Gus ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:57 PM PST US From: "Jerry Shepard" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris Perhaps someone can help me out. I have been wondering just what part of the 601 structure Chris was worried about failing from an aggressive elevator in the negative "G" catagory that made him reccomend the new 15 Deg flap stop. as well as the 2007 letter. The only thing that comes to mind that would stress the lower spar cap would be the sudden down-up leveraged movement of the wing load. It would also seem to me that any movement whatsoever would tend to want to spread the top and bottom spar caps of the center spar which would further allow movement. Just guessing--- If someone has either knoweledge as to Chris's thoughts on the neg "G"s or reasons to be very concerned, (-6"G"s is a lot), please post. I think as for me and my son, we will work on the Corvair for a while to give time for more information. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Letter from Chris > > > I understand why you didn't post the straight link but if Zenith wants to > block things inside that builders area from direct link it isn't really > that hard. They've already done the hard part. > > > Tim Juhl wrote: >> Technically the Builders website is for registered builders, people who >> at least bought the plans and registered with Zenith. I did not provide a >> link in my original post because I didn't think it appropriate for me to >> give the builder's URL in the clear. >> > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180295#180295 > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:30 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Zenith-List: Good Bye and Good Luck If you read my posts a few months back about the experiences of a poster by the name of "Wang Chung", you ll know why I m saying Good Bye and Good Luck. There is a majority of people on this site who know what they are talking about. You guys, Larry , Paul, Craig and others that I cant think of right now are the best. Your knowledge is an asset to other builders and I hope you continue. But I just got to tell ya, THIS SITE has its Wang Chungs. You Chungs are giving out information that may kill a newbie pilot. It just gives me a total stomach ache to read what your saying. Your expertise is DEADLY. Time and time again I read total Bull Shit... Again, as before to you newbie's: Listen to all information and divide by two... Look up a posters name in the FAA site. Look at ratings and backgrounds. You will probably NOT find these Wangs in the registry... Sure you've got your engineers. DIVIDE BY TWO ! Flutter, aileron balance, causes of failures etc. Wangs have the answer and know how to fix the problems. No need to respond to the rant cause Matronics is about to be removed from my computer. Matt, sorry about next years donation. It aint coming.... S. Weston Good Bye ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:33 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Good Bye and Good Luck I believe you have to say un subs cribe Have a nice day ;) In a message dated 4/30/2008 11:12:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, notsew_evets@frontiernet.net writes: If you read my posts a few months back about the experiences of a poster by the name of "Wang Chung", you ll know why I m saying Good Bye and Good Luck. There is a majority of people on this site who know what they are talking about. You guys, Larry , Paul, Craig and others that I cant think of right now are the best. Your knowledge is an asset to other builders and I hope you continue. But I just got to tell ya, THIS SITE has its Wang Chungs. You Chungs are giving out information that may kill a newbie pilot. It just gives me a total stomach ache to read what your saying. Your expertise is DEADLY. Time and time again I read total Bull Shit... Again, as before to you newbie's: Listen to all information and divide by two... Look up a posters name in the FAA site. Look at ratings and backgrounds. You will probably NOT find these Wangs in the registry... Sure you've got your engineers. DIVIDE BY TWO ! Flutter, aileron balance, causes of failures etc. Wangs have the answer and know how to fix the problems. No need to respond to the rant cause Matronics is about to be removed from my computer. Matt, sorry about next years donation. It aint coming.... S. Weston Good Bye **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:31 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group Good point, Andrew. Sounds like a good idea to me. If we are lucky enough to find an engineer to do the analysis, and, if we can raise the necessary funds, I think Zenith should get a copy of the report. And, responding to a earlier post (I think by Craig Payne) it would be wonderful to have Zenith support the analysis with data and/or design information. I'm not sure how to make that happen. Suggestions, anyone? Terry At 11:56 AM 4/30/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone spoke to the Hientz's about this potential independent >analysis? If so as an alternative route for disseminating the results of >such an analysis would it be best to provide all of the information and >results to Zenith as well. In doing this you could still provide a copy >of the results to all parties that paid for the analysis and allow others >to have the information disseminated to them through Zenith therefor >disposing of any potential liability of the analysis group. Just a >thought. I do agree with the comment about the younger generation getting >excited about flying in general. Being 27 it is very transparent to me >and sometimes I feel like the last of a dying breed.... > >-------- >Andrew Lieser Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.