Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (numskull99@netzero.net)
2. 04:43 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz)
3. 04:59 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz)
4. 05:10 AM - 601HD question (Dick)
5. 05:37 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (steveadams)
6. 06:48 AM - Move to 601 List (The Keeners)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz)
8. 07:06 AM - Re: Move to 601 List (Carlos Sa)
9. 07:16 AM - Re: Move to 601 List (Jaybannist@cs.com)
10. 07:25 AM - Re: Move to 601 List (James E. Lanier)
11. 08:02 AM - Re: Move to 601 List (Carlos Sa)
12. 09:31 AM - CH601XL Pitot Location (Dave Nixon)
13. 09:50 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Juan Vega)
14. 09:53 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Juan Vega)
15. 11:07 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (Andrewlieser)
16. 12:21 PM - Re: Move to 601 List (Gig Giacona)
17. 12:25 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Gig Giacona)
18. 01:02 PM - XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com)
19. 01:10 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (ashontz)
20. 01:38 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Tim Juhl)
21. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group (japhillipsga@aol.com)
22. 01:49 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Tim Juhl)
23. 02:18 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (M.Marcotte)
24. 02:27 PM - 601XL Parts for sale... (The Keeners)
25. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (David Downey)
26. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (David Downey)
27. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Southern Reflections)
28. 03:04 PM - Re: 601HD question (Bill Naumuk)
29. 03:06 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (PatrickW)
30. 03:08 PM - Re: 601XL Parts for sale... (PatrickW)
31. 03:34 PM - Aileron Balance Fairleads (Jaybannist@cs.com)
32. 03:45 PM - Aileron Balance Fairleads (Jaybannist@cs.com)
33. 03:49 PM - Re: Aileron Balance Fairleads (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
34. 03:55 PM - Re: Aileron Balance Fairleads (Craig Payne)
35. 04:41 PM - Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Craig Payne)
36. 04:52 PM - Re: Aileron Balance Fairleads (Jaybannist@cs.com)
37. 05:15 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Cndmovn)
38. 05:26 PM - Factory shutters on firewall slots and smooth steering rods (Craig Payne)
39. 05:26 PM - Re: Move to 601 List (Cndmovn)
40. 05:35 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
41. 06:31 PM - Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Ashley)
42. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Ken Lilja)
43. 08:03 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Frank Roskind)
44. 10:03 PM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
45. 11:10 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
46. 11:12 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
I think there is allot more younger people than you may think. Im 27, and proud
to be able to build a 601XL at this age.
Derek Lewis
Do not Archive;
-- "MHerder" <michaelherder@beckgroup.com> wrote:
Andrew,
I'm 26 so you're not the very last of the dying breed! I thought I was one of
the youngest builders in the group... That is till I heard about Sabrina... She
puts us all to shame! I am truly inspired by her story though and look forward
to seeing what she will do for aviation in the future. Perhaps another Burt
Rutan! I am definitely the youngest at my local EAA chapter during our monthly
meetings by at least 25 yrs or so.
Mike Herder
Zodiac XL Builder
N318MH
6-7019
HT and Rudder Complete, Fuselage is getting ready to get front skins. I guess
I'm about 35-40% there, not bad since I picked up the kit in December 07.
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180348#180348
_____________________________________________________________
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click now!
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
The more I ponder this, the more it souunds like this is the problem. Probably
nothing at all wrong with the wing, until it starts shaking like hell from aileron
flutter.
Actually, I've been thinking of a design to counter balance the ailerons. Certainly
seems doable, would look good, and wouldn't cause take away from the structural
integrity of the wing. It's doable, I'm just wondering what all the proper
procedures are for actually correctly statically and dynamically balancing
an aileron is. Do you have any info on that?
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]Andy,
I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel
that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons
it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV
you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of
a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the
weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing
that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for
it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance
the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to
go.
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one
to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure
for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control
cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though
the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably
be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod
to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight
is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic
balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
>
>
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851).
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180445#180445
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
I'd say the proper way to do it would be to balance from the front, but in theory
it also makes sense. More momentum to have to overcome on each cycle to to
get moving in the first place. Kind of like a longer pendulum on a clock, it moves
slower. Still I think the overriding effect would be that of connecting a
utility trailer to your car and then proceeding to put all the weight in the
back of the trailer, that sucker will be all over the street. Certainly the more
weight you put back there the lower the frequency would be, but it's not a
good way to trailer stuff.
[quote="notsew_evets(at)frontiern"]TRAILING EDGE ?
Oh brother.....
> ---
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180447#180447
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Has anyone purchased the nosebowl, baffling and hinged cowling from W.
Wynne for a 601HD?
Am trying to determine for a friend whether any modification is
necessary between the baffling and hinged cowling for a XL versus HD...
My friend is awaiting a previously ordered engine mount.
Thanks, Dick
please feel free to contact me off-list
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
I'm not going to get into the speculation bandwagon, because I think many of the
speculators don't know what they are talking about, but I have one comment.
If you are really concerned about aileron flutter, probably the surest fix would
be to build the non-hinged ailerons. I know it's too simple and not as exciting
and fun as making up ways to mass balance the ailerons, but increasing stiffness
and decreasing slop in the system is the best way to ensure the ailerons
won't flutter within the xl flight envelope.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180456#180456
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| Subject: | Move to 601 List |
Are all of the 601XL (Zodiac) builders moving to the 601 list? It will
be nice NOT to have to filter through all of the 701/801 info...
Forest K.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Too late. I already made the hinged ailerons. I just like that design better. I
agree, the stiffness of the skins would act as a damper though.
steveadams wrote:
> I'm not going to get into the speculation bandwagon, because I think many of
the speculators don't know what they are talking about, but I have one comment.
If you are really concerned about aileron flutter, probably the surest fix would
be to build the non-hinged ailerons. I know it's too simple and not as exciting
and fun as making up ways to mass balance the ailerons, but increasing
stiffness and decreasing slop in the system is the best way to ensure the ailerons
won't flutter within the xl flight envelope.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180474#180474
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| Subject: | Re: Move to 601 List |
I am subscribing to all lists *and reinforcing the Delete key*.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
tail feathers and right wing done, polishing skins for left wing.
Do NoT aRcHiVe
2008/5/1 The Keeners <kim.forest@surewest.net>:
>
> Are all of the 601XL (Zodiac) builders moving to the 601 list? It will be
> nice NOT to have to filter through all of the 701/801 info...
> Forest K.
>
>
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| Subject: | Move to 601 List |
I'm in the dark. I thought that this WAS the 601 list and that I didn't have to
do anything to be in the 601 forum. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Jay in Dallas
The Keeners <kim.forest@surewest.net> wrote:
>
>Are all of the 601XL (Zodiac) builders moving to the 601 list? It will
>be nice NOT to have to filter through all of the 701/801 info...
>Forest K.
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Move to 601 List |
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=68&sid=8b6780595298acb85d1fab92b761e8ae
Jim
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> I'm in the dark. I thought that this WAS the 601 list and that I didn't have
to do anything to be in the 601 forum. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Jay in Dallas
>
>
> The Keeners <kim.forest@surewest.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Are all of the 601XL (Zodiac) builders moving to the 601 list? It will
>> be nice NOT to have to filter through all of the 701/801 info...
>> Forest K.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Move to 601 List |
Jay,
There are 4 lists: the "generic" zenith-list (this one, the old list), and
lists dedicated to (1) 601; (2) 640 and (3) 701, 801.
>From my post yesterday:
The traffic on the new (Zenith) lists does not get automatically posted here
(zenith-list).
If you are interested on the discussions taking place in the other three
lists, you have to subscribe to them at this URL:
http://www.matronics.com/subscription/
do not archive
Cheers
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Tail and right wing done.
Montreal, Canada
2008/5/1 <Jaybannist@cs.com>:
>
> I'm in the dark. I thought that this WAS the 601 list and that I didn't
> have to do anything to be in the 601 forum. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
>
> Jay in Dallas
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | CH601XL Pitot Location |
I now have about 20 hours logged. And from the first, my Indicated AS ha
s
been a pretty consistent
10 - 12 kts high. Trying to get more cruise out of the Jabiru 3300 and t
he
adjustable, Sensenich prop,
I did a series of static run-ups. Finally got the prop half-way decent a
nd
noticed that my Dynon was
Indicating 15 - 20 Kts on full throttle (on the ground, tied down) and wh
en
I backed RPM off, the IAS
came down also. So, when I went flying today, I measured speed over grou
nd
vs. Indicated and
sure enough, it indicated higher than actual.
Other than moving the Zenith pitot out two more bays, does anyone know of
any other fixes?? Out two
bays would put it in the same bay with aileron bellcrank access cover.
Thanks, Dave Nixon
N107R Flying
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
what airpseed indicator instrument do you have?
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Nixon <adnasap@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: May 1, 2008 12:27 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: CH601XL Pitot Location
>
>I now have about 20 hours logged. And from the first, my Indicated AS has
>been a pretty consistent
>
>10 - 12 kts high. Trying to get more cruise out of the Jabiru 3300 and the
>adjustable, Sensenich prop,
>
>I did a series of static run-ups. Finally got the prop half-way decent and
>noticed that my Dynon was
>
>Indicating 15 - 20 Kts on full throttle (on the ground, tied down) and when
>I backed RPM off, the IAS
>
>came down also. So, when I went flying today, I measured speed over ground
>vs. Indicated and
>
>sure enough, it indicated higher than actual.
>
>Other than moving the Zenith pitot out two more bays, does anyone know of
>any other fixes?? Out two
>
>bays would put it in the same bay with aileron bellcrank access cover.
>
>
>
>Thanks, Dave Nixon
>
>N107R Flying
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
What static RPM do you have on the Jabiru at full throttle at start of take off?
It should read 2850 to 2900. 2950 at climb out at 70 to 75 mph.
AT 3000 PA on a dead air day fire wall full throttle should get you 3250 to 3300
rpm.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Nixon <adnasap@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: May 1, 2008 12:27 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: CH601XL Pitot Location
>
>I now have about 20 hours logged. And from the first, my Indicated AS has
>been a pretty consistent
>
>10 - 12 kts high. Trying to get more cruise out of the Jabiru 3300 and the
>adjustable, Sensenich prop,
>
>I did a series of static run-ups. Finally got the prop half-way decent and
>noticed that my Dynon was
>
>Indicating 15 - 20 Kts on full throttle (on the ground, tied down) and when
>I backed RPM off, the IAS
>
>came down also. So, when I went flying today, I measured speed over ground
>vs. Indicated and
>
>sure enough, it indicated higher than actual.
>
>Other than moving the Zenith pitot out two more bays, does anyone know of
>any other fixes?? Out two
>
>bays would put it in the same bay with aileron bellcrank access cover.
>
>
>
>Thanks, Dave Nixon
>
>N107R Flying
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
I did not know here were other younger builders on the site! It's nice to here
that! Just curious were you guys brought up around aviation or were you exposed
later on in life??? Just curios!
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
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| Subject: | Re: Move to 601 List |
I read via the web forum so all it means to me is another entry in my bookmarks
but since the biggest majority of Zenith builders and filers are 601 builders
I suggest we stay where we are, here on the Zenith list. I know this is where
I'm going to post unless or until it dies.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180538#180538
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
Where is your static port? Is it on the fuselage or out on the pitot tube?
To check and see if it is a static or pitot problem tie it down and rev it again.
When it is showing you are moving when you aren't have someone cover the ports
one at a time.
If the problem is a steady state you might be able to adjust it out of the Dynon.
Of course the Dynon might show you backing up when you are on the ground with
the engine off.
Dave Nixon wrote:
> I now have about 20 hours logged. And from the first, my Indicated AS has been
a pretty consistent
> 10 - 12 kts high. Trying to get more cruise out of the Jabiru 3300 and the
adjustable, Sensenich prop,
> I did a series of static run-ups. Finally got the prop half-way decent and
noticed that my Dynon was
> Indicating 15 - 20 Kts on full throttle (on the ground, tied down) and when
I backed RPM off, the IAS
> came down also. So, when I went flying today, I measured speed over ground
vs. Indicated and
> sure enough, it indicated higher than actual.
> Other than moving the Zenith pitot out two more bays, does anyone know of any
other fixes?? Out two
> bays would put it in the same bay with aileron bellcrank access cover.
>
> Thanks, Dave Nixon
> N107R Flying
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180540#180540
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| Subject: | XL Wing Attachment Modification |
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments
for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference
is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows
that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing
twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active
thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
I know, they work long hours drafting docs that show hours charged.
japhillipsga(at)aol.com wrote:
> Andy, lawyers are not lazy! Bill of Georgia
>
>
> --
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180549#180549
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
I've often wondered about the strength of the rear spar attachment. With all the
people stepping back there to board the plane it has to support more than just
flight loads. It is critical to maintaining the XL's wing geometry even if
the main spar carries the bulk of the load. That said, I would be reluctant
to make a major modification to the design without ZAC's blessing.
May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment point
at the wing tip"
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180553#180553
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group |
Andy, you got it nearly right. We have a staff that does all that so we can spend
more time in the plotting, planning and dirty trick mode (PPDT).?It's a common
misconception that attorneys are just lowdown, greedy money grubbers. Frankly,
making money is merely a very pleasant bi-product of the enjoyment of PPDT
work, coupled with hearing the wimpers and whinning from the missfortunate we
aim it at. Best regards, Bill
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 4:08 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group
I know, they work long hours drafting docs that show hours charged.
japhillipsga(at)aol.com wrote:
> Andy, lawyers are not lazy! Bill of Georgia
>
>
> --
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180549#180549
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
To check the static you might also disconnect it at the back of the dynon so your
reference is in the undisturbed air of the cockpit. Other than that, many
steam gauge ASI'S won't even read a speed under 40 kts so the phenomena may be
common in other aircraft but not observed because of the lack of sensitivity
of the instruments. Look at the position of the pitot on production aircraft
- they will have much the same relationship to the prop location as your XL.
Check out this webpage on how to use your GPS to determine your true air speed. It might be helpful - http://www.csgnetwork.com/tasgpscalc.html
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180556#180556
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
I would look for sources of flutter before tampering with the basic
structure. I mean like this one from Joe about the trim tab:
"Use bolts to attach the horn, not rivets.
The fasteners are loaded in tension.
Mine became loose in fewer than 100 hours.
Joe E
N633Z (at) BFI
332 hours
CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49
On Sun, 7 May 2006"
Doesn't this look like a smoking gun?
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing
attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a
and the difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of
you fellows that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce
the wing twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any
constructive, pro-active thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message 24
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| Subject: | 601XL Parts for sale... |
Anyone interested in buying the following component parts:
1. Rudder - Complete (up to plans instructions).
2. Horizontal Stab - Complete (up to plans instructions).
3. Elevator - Just about complete (needs final drill out, corrosion
prot., riveted).
4. Entire Wing Kit (component)
-Lights (landing/position)
-Baggage Locker Option
-Standard Tanks (24 Gal.)
Table/Some tools included... MAKE OFFER.
Forest K.
Rocklin, CA
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Gentlemen;
Aileron balance cables do not provide mas or aerodynamic balance - they simply
complete the mechanical actuation circuit - hence balance.
Aerodynamic balance involves active aerodynamic surfaces of the control surface
that are place ahead of the effective hinge line.
Mass balance refers to mass added forward of the effective hinge line to result
in a painted, ready to fly, surface static balance (pivoting on the actual hinge)
with the leading edge about 10 down.
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: Andy,
I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel
that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons
it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV
you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of
a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the
weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing
that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for
it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance
the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to
go.
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one
to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure
for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control
cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though
the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably
be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod
to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight
is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic
balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
---------------------------------
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
stiffer usually does mean a different natural frequency. Maybe there is some merit
in that argument. However, haven't both forms failed for whatever reason?
I'm not going to get into the speculation bandwagon, because I think many of the
speculators don't know what they are talking about, but I have one comment.
If you are really concerned about aileron flutter, probably the surest fix would
be to build the non-hinged ailerons. I know it's too simple and not as exciting
and fun as making up ways to mass balance the ailerons, but increasing stiffness
and decreasing slop in the system is the best way to ensure the ailerons
won't flutter within the xl flight envelope.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180456#180456
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
Do you know if all the planes that have had the folding problem had hinge
or hingeless ailerons, or is it a mix ? Joe N101HD 601XL?RAM
----- Original Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:54 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter)
>
> Too late. I already made the hinged ailerons. I just like that design
> better. I agree, the stiffness of the skins would act as a damper though.
>
>
> steveadams wrote:
>> I'm not going to get into the speculation bandwagon, because I think many
>> of the speculators don't know what they are talking about, but I have one
>> comment. If you are really concerned about aileron flutter, probably the
>> surest fix would be to build the non-hinged ailerons. I know it's too
>> simple and not as exciting and fun as making up ways to mass balance the
>> ailerons, but increasing stiffness and decreasing slop in the system is
>> the best way to ensure the ailerons won't flutter within the xl flight
>> envelope.
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180474#180474
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 601HD question |
Dick-
I'd be glad to respond to you off list, but there's no e-mail link
for you.
HD, HDS, and XL all use the same components and attachment
locations. Differences are restricted to the fuel system in the XL.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick
To: Zenith-List@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD question
Has anyone purchased the nosebowl, baffling and hinged cowling from W.
Wynne for a 601HD?
Am trying to determine for a friend whether any modification is
necessary between the baffling and hinged cowling for a XL versus HD...
My friend is awaiting a previously ordered engine mount.
Thanks, Dick
please feel free to contact me off-list
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
> I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the RV-8 owned by Mr VanG himself shed it's wings,
taking two of his friends...?
Does anyone know any more about that, and if so, was there any changes made to
the airframe after that?
Patrick
XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180570#180570
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Parts for sale... |
Sure hope you were not scared away by this list.
It's highly likely that the most dangerous thing about flying an XL is the drive
to the airport.
- Patrick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180572#180572
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| Subject: | Aileron Balance Fairleads |
I am really confused about aileron fairleads. I am clear about the (primary) cable
fairleads and the middle balance cable fairlead.
However, on Drawing 6-B-22, at the extreme lower right corner, it calls for one
30 x 60 balance fairlead with a slot; and two 30 x 60 balance fairleads with
no hole or slot.
The drawing above this calls out "Middle Balance Fairlead 30 x 60 (4 req'd). 2
pieces: one riveted to 6B11-2 (which is the side skin), the other to 6B5-1" (which
is the seat back support); with an arrow pointing to the drawing.
The drawing shows the location of the fairleads attached to the side skin; and
shows a 30 x 60 fairlead with a hole in it running parallel with the seat back
support.
This just doesn't make sense to me. I can't tell what goes where. Someone straighten
me out - PLEASE!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
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| Subject: | Aileron Balance Fairleads |
Hold on! I think I figured it out. The missing piece is on the drawing of the
balance fairlead with a slot. It doesn't call for two of those.
As I see it, the plain 30 x 60 pieces are riveted to the seat back support up against
the inside of the side skin. The pieces with the slot are riveted to the
side skin to hold the cable very near the plain pieces.
Have I got it right?
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Fairleads |
The one on the side skin is the thru fair lead and the one on the seat back
is just to keep it from rubbing the seat back and rivets. It looks kinda like
an L when you are done. If you need any more help I can try and explain it
over the phone if you want to call me.
Jeff
502-644-8123
In a message dated 5/1/2008 6:34:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Jaybannist@cs.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com
I am really confused about aileron fairleads. I am clear about the
(primary) cable fairleads and the middle balance cable fairlead.
However, on Drawing 6-B-22, at the extreme lower right corner, it calls for
one 30 x 60 balance fairlead with a slot; and two 30 x 60 balance fairleads
with no hole or slot.
The drawing above this calls out "Middle Balance Fairlead 30 x 60 (4 req'd).
2 pieces: one riveted to 6B11-2 (which is the side skin), the other to
6B5-1" (which is the seat back support); with an arrow pointing to the drawing.
The drawing shows the location of the fairleads attached to the side skin;
and shows a 30 x 60 fairlead with a hole in it running parallel with the seat
back support.
This just doesn't make sense to me. I can't tell what goes where. Someone
straighten me out - PLEASE!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Aileron Balance Fairleads |
Yes, see the attached shots.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:42 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron Balance Fairleads
Hold on! I think I figured it out. The missing piece is on the drawing of
the balance fairlead with a slot. It doesn't call for two of those.
As I see it, the plain 30 x 60 pieces are riveted to the seat back support
up against the inside of the side skin. The pieces with the slot are
riveted to the side skin to hold the cable very near the plain pieces.
Have I got it right?
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Message 35
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| Subject: | Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward |
With my XL QBK I followed the 6-C-03A photo guide and aligned the lip of the
bubble 190mm back from the firewall rivet line. Once I got to the point of
actually being able to tilt the canopy up I found that the forward lip of
the canopy (even without the rubber trim) extends below the level of the
front skin. In other words if my cowling was installed the lip of the canopy
would hit it.
The best way to fix this problem is to prevent it - test-fit the bubble,
frame and gas springs before drilling and bolting the pivots on the
longerons for the gas springs (6C2-2). That isn't an option on a QBK because
the pivots come already positioned, drilled and bolted.
There are at least three possible fixes:
- shorten the hardened rods on the gas spring and cut more threads with a
die.
- shorten the gas springs overall by trimming the aluminum eyelets that
thread onto the ends of the actual spring. Lance Gingell did this but he
only had to shorten his my 6mm:
http://lancegingell.com/planebuild/constructionlog.asp?PlanRef=6-C-3&Search
PlanRef
http://wls1.lancegingell.com/largeplaneimages/DSC06003.jpg
- move the pivots farther aft.
I wanted to move my pivots aft but would have to move them so far that I
wouldn't be able to pick up the existing, most forward bolts. And I didn't
want to drill more holes in the longerons. Another builder found himself in
the same situation and persuaded the factory to weld up a pair of 6C2-2 with
longer plates. I did the same and asked for parts with an extra 30mm on both
ends for a total length of 240mm instead of the 180mm part the plans
describe. This should be more than enough, I need to move mine back about
13mm.
Relatively uninteresting picture attached.
-- Craig
Message 36
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| Subject: | Aileron Balance Fairleads |
Many thanks Craig. That's exactly what I needed to begin with.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
>Yes, see the attached shots.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Jaybannist@cs.com
>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:42 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron Balance Fairleads
>
>
>Hold on! I think I figured it out. The missing piece is on the drawing of
>the balance fairlead with a slot. It doesn't call for two of those.
>
>As I see it, the plain 30 x 60 pieces are riveted to the seat back support
>up against the inside of the side skin. The pieces with the slot are
>riveted to the side skin to hold the cable very near the plain pieces.
>
>Have I got it right?
>
>Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
"I am working on an airbus 380 and I looked at the zenith spar
attachment".....it is like comparing apples to oranges! One designer might
have added thickness to a structure while another added physical
attachments. This list had degenerated into a bunch of people raising
issues and fears that can never be answered. You might as well ask...If I
put an underweight elephant in the right seat of the airplane, would adding
another AN4 bold make it safe?
There are few if no qualified people on this list to answer this question.
There are a LOT of people on this list who will give you an answer who have
NO idea what they are talking about.
Bottom line....if you don't like the design or trust the designer, sell the
project and move onto something else.
BTW, before I get cat call for being insensitive, I AM NOT making fun of
you.....just the rest of the so call engineers on this list who while give
you "solutions"
Paul
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, M.Marcotte <m.l.marcotte@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> I would look for sources of flutter before tampering with the basic
> structure. I mean like this one from Joe about the trim tab:
> *
>
> "Use bolts to attach the horn, not rivets.
> The fasteners are loaded in tension.
> Mine became loose in fewer than 100 hours.
>
> Joe E
> N633Z (at) BFI
> 332 hours
> CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49
> On Sun, 7 May 2006"*
> **
> **
> Doesn't this look like a smoking gun?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* japhillipsga@aol.com
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:58 PM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
>
>
> XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments
for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference
is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
>
> attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows
that know RVs
>
> understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing
twising concern
>
> that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive,
pro-active thoughts
>
> on the issue?
>
> Best regards, Bill of Georgia
>
> 601XL-3300 130 hrs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004>:
> America's #1 Mapping Site.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Factory shutters on firewall slots and smooth steering rods |
When I heard that the QBKs after mine were now being supplied with shutters
to seal the slots for the steering rods I suspected the factory now had
steering rods (6G2-4) that are not threaded over their whole length. In the
past builders fitting shutters created a smooth surface to slide through the
shutters by slipping tubing over the threads, wrapping them in shim stock or
filling in the threads with JB Weld. Anyway I gave the factory a call and
they confirmed that they now have rods with only an inch of threads on one
end.
I received mine the other day and have attached a picture of the old and new
rods. These are revision 1 so the full part number is 6G2-4/1. You will
immediately notice that the rods are shorter than the older fully-threaded
rods and are of unequal length. The two I received are 255mm and 233mm from
the tips of the threaded ends to the center of the holes for the rudder
pedal bolts. For the old rods the plans say "length=310 (trim to fit)". Of
course the reason the two new rods are of different length is because the
rudder pedal bearings are staggered fore/aft by 32mm (6B9-4). With the older
rods a tall or short builder had the option of trimming the rods to move the
neutral position of the actual pedals fore or aft. With the new rods any
builder still can make some adjustment (maybe 10mm) by adjusting the
threaded rod ends.
-- Craig
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Move to 601 List |
I moved but keep looking at this one to get my daily fix of "Stupid ass,
unqualified engineering advice".
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Sa <carlossa52@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jay,
>
>
> There are 4 lists: the "generic" zenith-list (this one, the old list), and
> lists dedicated to (1) 601; (2) 640 and (3) 701, 801.
> From my post yesterday:
>
> The traffic on the new (Zenith) lists does not get automatically posted
> here (zenith-list).
> If you are interested on the discussions taking place in the other three
> lists, you have to subscribe to them at this URL:
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription/
>
> do not archive
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> Tail and right wing done.
> Montreal, Canada
>
> 2008/5/1 <Jaybannist@cs.com>:
>
> >
> > I'm in the dark. I thought that this WAS the 601 list and that I didn't
> > have to do anything to be in the 601 forum. Please correct me if I am
> > wrong.
> >
> > Jay in Dallas
> >
> >
> >
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
I agree 100% Last night i made a post and inverted trailing edge for leading
edge with regards to the vans aileron but most on this and every other list
just like to kick ideas around and will never do what they propose and I for
1 will not deviate from the plans and if I have to deviate because of
something beyond my control I always call Zenith for guidance. I agree that unless
someone wants to pay big bucks for wind tunnel tests and tests till
destruction of control surfaces then all this is merely chatter and nothing more.
Take
it for what it's worth.
Jeff
"I am working on an airbus 380 and I looked at the zenith spar
attachment".....it is like comparing apples to oranges! One designer might have
added
thickness to a structure while another added physical attachments. This list
had degenerated into a bunch of people raising issues and fears that can
never be answered. You might as well ask...If I put an underweight elephant in
the right seat of the airplane, would adding another AN4 bold make it safe?
There are few if no qualified people on this list to answer this question.
There are a LOT of people on this list who will give you an answer who have
NO idea what they are talking about.
Bottom line....if you don't like the design or trust the designer, sell the
project and move onto something else.
BTW, before I get cat call for being insensitive, I AM NOT making fun of
you.....just the rest of the so call engineers on this list who while give you
"solutions"
Paul
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, M.Marcotte <_m.l.marcotte@sympatico.ca_
(mailto:m.l.marcotte@sympatico.ca) > wrote:
I would look for sources of flutter before tampering with the basic
structure. I mean like this one from Joe about the trim tab:
"Use bolts to attach the horn, not rivets.
The fasteners are loaded in tension.
Mine became loose in fewer than 100 hours.
Joe E
N633Z (at) BFI
332 hours
CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49
On Sun, 7 May 2006"
Doesn't this look like a smoking gun?
----- Original Message -----
From: _japhillipsga@aol.com_ (mailto:japhillipsga@aol.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing
attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the
difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you
fellows that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the
wing twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive,
pro-active thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530)
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
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Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward |
I had to same problem.
The theory of measure twice cut once does not work if you measure from the
wrong spot-twice.
I shortened the gas struts.
Canopy does not open as for but there is no problem getting in or out of the
plane.
Floyd Wilkes
601 XL O-200
Almost finished.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward
> With my XL QBK I followed the 6-C-03A photo guide and aligned the lip of
> the
> bubble 190mm back from the firewall rivet line. Once I got to the point of
> actually being able to tilt the canopy up I found that the forward lip of
> the canopy (even without the rubber trim) extends below the level of the
> front skin. In other words if my cowling was installed the lip of the
> canopy
> would hit it.
>
> The best way to fix this problem is to prevent it - test-fit the bubble,
> frame and gas springs before drilling and bolting the pivots on the
> longerons for the gas springs (6C2-2). That isn't an option on a QBK
> because
> the pivots come already positioned, drilled and bolted.
>
> There are at least three possible fixes:
>
> - shorten the hardened rods on the gas spring and cut more threads with a
> die.
>
> - shorten the gas springs overall by trimming the aluminum eyelets that
> thread onto the ends of the actual spring. Lance Gingell did this but he
> only had to shorten his my 6mm:
>
> http://lancegingell.com/planebuild/constructionlog.asp?PlanRef=6-C-3&Search
> PlanRef
> http://wls1.lancegingell.com/largeplaneimages/DSC06003.jpg
>
> - move the pivots farther aft.
>
> I wanted to move my pivots aft but would have to move them so far that I
> wouldn't be able to pick up the existing, most forward bolts. And I didn't
> want to drill more holes in the longerons. Another builder found himself
> in
> the same situation and persuaded the factory to weld up a pair of 6C2-2
> with
> longer plates. I did the same and asked for parts with an extra 30mm on
> both
> ends for a total length of 240mm instead of the 180mm part the plans
> describe. This should be more than enough, I need to move mine back about
> 13mm.
>
> Relatively uninteresting picture attached.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
FWIW:
OK, this one I am really sure about! THE FURTHER AFT THE BALANCE POINT
OF THE SURFACE THE MORE LIKELY FLUTTER BECOMES! Please, Do NOT add
weight to the trailing edge!
I have checked the surface balance on many A/C. They need to be checked
after repair or any paint job. (you might be surprised about how many
planes come back from the paint shop and have not had the balance done)
Balance weights are installed forward of the hinge line. Even on the
high wing Cessna ailerons where at first glance it does not look like it
is. The faster that an airplane is designed to fly, the closer the
balance range is to the hinge line, also the allowable range becomes
smaller. On some turboprops and larger, the surface is supposed to
balance at the hinge line. On the Beech Bonanza and Baron series the
surfaces were originally magnesium. Magnesium is lighter but much more
prone to corrosion than aluminum. Because of the corrosion problems,
they replaced the magnesium with aluminum but did not change the
balance. This lead to the surfaces being tail heavy. The proper way to
paint them is with the leading edge hanging down so the thinest paint is
at the trailing edge. You are only allowed to add so much weight to the
balance weight. If you can not bring the surface to balance it needs to
stripped and repainted. I have never had to move a surface balance
point aft, only add weight to move it forward. Installing an anti-servo
tab would add weight to the trailing edge of the elevator. This would
be a show stopper for me. (assuming adding a second trim tab to the
other elevator, modified to work as an anti-servo tab, and without
provisions for balancing) I have thought about moving the trim
actuators to the wing and stab, but making the geometry of the linkage
work would be difficult, but certainly not impossible. (cables and
fair-leads are used on some Beeches) Cable tension is VERY important
as are no slop linkages. I understand that loose cables have brought
down planes. I hope the tension values are listed somewhere in the
instructions. Typical values are between 30 and 40 pounds. Your EAA
chapter may own a tensiometer to check this.
On flutter: From AC 90-89A, _/AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT AND ULTRALIGHT
FLIGHT TESTING HANDBOOK/_ page 52 and 53
"f. Flutter can happen at any speed, including take-off speed. At low
airspeeds, however, structural and aerodynamic damping quickly suppress
the flutter motion. But as the */airspeed increases/*, so do the
aerodynamic driving forces generated by the aileron. When they are
large enough to cancel the damping, the motion becomes continuous.
g. */Further SMALL INCREASES/* will produce a divergent, or increasing
oscillation, which can quickly exceed the structural limits of the
airframe. Even when flutter is on the verge of becoming catastrophic it
can still be very hard to detect. What causes this is the high frequency
of the oscillation, typically between 5 and 20 Hz (cycles per second).
It will take but a small increase in speed (1?4 knot or less) to remove
what little damping remains and
the motion will become divergent rapidly." (Italics added)
The event reported by Bill of GA may have been avibration like skin
oil-canning. If it was a true flutter event increasing the speed would
have made it worse. Increasing the speed may have dampened the
vibration or moved him out of the conditions that caused the
vibrations. All vibrations are not flutter, but flutter is a vibration
that is resonant, or self exciting: each cycle adds energy, making the
vibration worse. Engines and propellers v
vibrate. Sometimes worse at one RPM than others. If the engine/prop
vibrates at a /resonant frequency/, the crankshaft can break, prop
blades and hubs can come apart.
Take this information for what it is worth: I am not a structural or
aeronautical engineer or an aerodynamicist.
Complete kit with S/N
Rudder and horizontal stabilizer 98 % complete.
Elevator 50%.
Ken (really slow) Lilja A&P
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| Subject: | XL Wing Attachment Modification |
We don't know the causes of the accidents, nor may we ever know. We know t
hat one symptom of the failure was a failure of the wing spar, but we do no
t understand the causative mechanism. I have read thousands of accident re
ports from many modes of transportation, and the only thing I would say is
consistent is the fog that remains after a good investigation. We know tha
t some failures were part of the causal chain of some accidents, and that t
he accidents would likely not have happened had the failure not happened, o
r if there had been coverage for the failure, but in the end there is a lot
of educated, in some cases very highly educated, speculation. I am not an
engineer, but I do have duties which require me to find common factors in
accidents. In this case the apparent common factor is the wing failure. W
e know almost nothing about the serviced history previous to the flights.
It is very possible that a crack initiated days, weeks, months, or even yea
rs before the accidents. The accidents may have involved a unique alignmen
t of circumstances that has not occurred, and probably will not occur, to p
otential analysts. It may be that crosswind landings on turf fields in col
d weather during the dark of the moon affects holes reamed and then polishe
d with the wrong color of scotchbrite pad, but only in aircraft flown by le
ft-handed, right-eyed pilots flying from the left seat. Aside from the pha
se of the moon, it is possible that any of these factors might have influen
ced the likelihood of a wing failure, and there are thousands of other, sim
ilarly inoccuous sounding conditions that might actuallly have had an effec
t. OTOH, strenghteneing an attachment point without engineering support in
creases the likelihood that you will transfer forces to a different point o
n the airplane, which is not designed to handle the additional load. Mr. H
eintz is generous enough to lend engineering support to builders who ask fo
r it, so I believe that you are foolhardy if you are not a qualifed enginee
r, and also decline to run your proposed changes by the designer.
ication Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:58:54 -0400From: japhillipsga@aol.com
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachm
ents for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the dif
ference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you
fellows that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the w
ing twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive
, pro-active thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
_________________________________________________________________
Make i'm yours.- Create a custom banner to support your cause.
MSN_Make_IM_Yours
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
The wing of the Van's RV attaches to the leading edge fuel tank inboard rib
not the rear spar like the 601. The fuel tank is removable and when you
remove it you also unbolt the attach point for the wing. But the spar is deeper
in
the wing also.
Jeff
May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment
point at the wing tip"
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Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
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The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
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Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
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- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
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agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
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- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
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will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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[This is an automated posting.]
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| Subject: | Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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